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Do people really need to know and use the word "Jehovah" or other language equivalents, to truly know God?


Jack Ryan

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5 hours ago, Eoin Joyce said:

I included these words because  recognizing Jehovah's work in creating His only-begotten son is included in the reasons for assigning Him honor.

Dang it, here I thought I was getting a complement. (Web bot post).

 

But that does not address the equality of the honor given in the verse.  It's not a matter of why, but rather what. 

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Jesus always referred to God as Father, which should help us realize there is more than just pronouncing his name in order to know him.  Jesus made mention many times that by accepting him and his tea

Quite agree. Prostrating oneself involves more Prostrate oneself 1. Lit. to lay oneself out in respect or obedience in front of someone or something. Fall down   to drop or to

3 hours ago, Shiwiii said: "yes, but that is not the question. The question is not about why it is about how. How do you honor one more than the other?" Based on John 5:23: "all may hon

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3 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

But that does not address the equality of the honor given in the verse.  It's not a matter of why, but rather what. 

In the verse at John 5:23, in responding to the Jews at that time (v19), Jesus showed that the honor which the Jews were accustomed to give to Jehovah as their Judge, they would now have to give equally to Jesus as well. This was because Jehovah would be transferring the executive role of Judge to His Son, Jesus. (Acts 17:31).

Of course, in delegating authority for judging to Jesus, Jehovah in no way relinquishes His position as Supreme Lawgiver and Judge. He is that eternally by His very nature as Creator and God. That is why those Jews would need to continue honoring the Father and would now additionally have to honor the Son as they had formerly honored the Father alone.

As Jehovah has "set a day to judge the entire inhabited earth", this requirement for honor to be given to both Jehovah and Jesus is incumbent on all of mankind who wish to gain a favourable judgement in line with the principle stated at 1Sam 2:30: "those honoring me I will honor". Honoring Jehovah necessitates the honoring of His Son and vice versa.

John 5:23.

"so that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him"
 

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18 minutes ago, Eoin Joyce said:

That is why those Jews would need to continue honoring the Father and would now additionally have to honor the Son as they had formerly honored the Father alone.

This statement, I am in complete agreement with. They/we are to honor the Son just as we honor the Father. There is no separation or degree of honor given to one over the other. 

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On 4/27/2016 at 11:38 AM, Witness said:

Hi Janice, 

 

Got your walking shoes on? :)

Your words, “Turning away from a spiritual paradise would be like a dog going back to its vomit.”

 

 “From my view, I have seen a lot of neglect, hurt feelings and some major problems needing major corrections,”

 

Both these statements seem contradictory to me.  Even though there are conflicting teachings, unfulfilled end time dates, child abuse cases gone to court, evidence brought out by the organization itself that faith in anything like it is idolatry (still, identity to it is required), you still believe the organization is a spiritual paradise?  How do you figure? Or perhaps I need more understanding of your viewpoint.

 

I believe this view of the organization as a spiritual paradise is dangerous ground.  Considering that there are major problems, but allegiance to it must persist, each heart is placed in jeopardy.  Why should one tolerate major problems when we each are responsible for sole devotion to and in our service to God and Jesus?

 

 “Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God for it is written,  “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.” So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.” Rom 14:10-12

 

From the Watchtower:

 

"We find refuge today in the spiritual security enjoyed by God’s people as a whole." 
"Through “the faithful and discreet slave” and elders in the congregation, we are alerted to trends in the world that could endanger that security." (w11 1/15 pp. 3-7)

 

If we settle in under such a canopy of what man considers a spiritual paradise, not questioning strange teachings or another one’s hurt feelings, what could happen?

 

“For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.  While people are saying, “There is peace and security,” then sudden destruction will come upon them as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.  But you are not in darkness, brothers, for that day to surprise you like a thief.”  1 Thess 5:2-4

 

"They have healed the wound of my people lightly, saying, ‘Peace, peace,’ when there is no peace". Jer 8:11

 

“Spiritual paradise” can only be found within us.

 

"And the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus."  Phil 4:7

 

Should we hand over our spirituality to men who from one mouth teach a good and bad fruit? Their track record is faulty and cannot compare with Moses, Abraham, or the prophets of old who led people correctly.  If our rulers are misleading and causing confusion how can they be blessed with Holy Spirit?

 

 Your words, “I don't see where a person can be disfellowshipped for quoting the Bible.” 

 

I should clarify how this happens.  If I was to spread the words I earlier stated to my fellow JWs after speaking to elders about such a biblical based belief, disfellowshipping ensues, and it happens every day.  Now, if I were to deny scriptural admonition to preach this new found enlightenment for fear of being shunned and then just walk away, I may be left alone and could continue in good standing with the congregation.  But, of course, this goes against scripture to remain silent.  

 

"Through him then let us continually offer up a sacrifice of praise to God, that is, the fruit of lips that acknowledge his name."  Heb 13:15

 

"so that the tested genuineness of your faith—more precious than gold that perishes though it is tested by fire—may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ."  1 Pet 1:7.  

 

The report given in Rom 10:22-21 is concerning this salvation given us by God through Jesus. 

 

"that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved."  Rom 10:9

 

We cannot preach this in the organization and avoid disfellowshipping, since this is a rejection of the image of the organization as a source of salvation.  Rev 13:15  Disfellowshipping is a cutting off, a silencing and a depiction of one viewed as spiritually "dead".

 

“I see no urgency or crisis as for as those anointed are concerned.  They are in God's hands to put in whatever rightful position he desires, not mine”

 

Was the institution of the early temple ignored before Jesus came?  The early tabernacle held God’s presence.  Ex 40:36-38.  Later the temple replaced the tabernacle as representation of God’s presence among his people. 2 Chron. 7:16; Ezek. 37:26-28  The newly created Temple, Christ's Body,  through the New Covenant exists within the anointed ones. 

 

“We heard him say, ‘I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and in three days I will build another, not made with hands.’”  Mark 14:58

 

If we see a spiritual desecration of this “Temple”; an ignorance to its meaning as well as its spiritual understanding, we turn our back on Christ who is “building” it.  1 Pet 2:5; Rev 5:10  It’s original use and meaning was not brushed aside under the Mosaic Covenant, why would it be today under Christ?  The anointed one’s sacrifices offered are not animals as the Mosaic Law required, but it is their own lives used to “bear witness”.  Rev 20:4 God resides in spirit within these “living stones”.   (2 Cor 6:16; Zeph 3:16-20) They make God’s name known.

 

 “I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word.  John 17:6  (John 14:20)

 

If anyone lords it over God’s spiritual Temple by their own authority, this is an “abomination”.  The gift offerings expected by God and to be given to the people by these “priests” has ceased under elder rule.  Rom 15:16; 1 Tim 4:16; 2 Pet 1:8; Col 1:10

 

I believe the opinion you hold (and it is your right) has become the opinion of the anointed ones who lounge within a supposed “spiritual paradise” allowing others to rule over them.

 

“ So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths,  which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.  Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, and not holding fast to the Head, from whom all the body, nourished and knit together by joints and ligaments, grows with the increase that is from God.”

 

“Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations— “Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle,”  which all concern things which perish with the using—according to the commandments and doctrines of men?  These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh.”  Col 2:16-23

 

The “worship of angels” is the abnormal admiration given anointed ones – the GB – over the whole of the Body of Christ. Angels are God's messengers, God's messengers are also his "priests". (Mal 2:7)  If the Body is to remain inseparable and to grow through its adherence to each other, superiority and ruling over other members of this Body shows that evidence of those lording it over their own body members as disconnected with the Head, who is Christ. Mark 10:42

 

“so that there may be no division in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it.” 1 Cor 12:25,26

 

This is hardly the case when the “Temple” is treated as such:

 

Anointed Christians do not feel that they should spend time only with other anointed ones, as if they were members of a club. They do not try to find other anointed ones so that they can talk about being anointed or meet in groups to study the Bible. (Galatians 1:15-17) The congregation would not be united if anointed ones did this. They would be working against the holy spirit, which helps God’s people to have peace and unity.  W 16/1 pp. 20-26

 

This truly is blaspheming God’s name and suffocating the Body of Christ.  The uniting of the congregation is through the unification of the Body and allows Holy Spirit to flow to the advantage of everyone. 1 Cor 2:13  The words of the WT are in severe contradiction to scripture and the building up of the Temple.

 

“For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, you are God’s building According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it.  For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.”  1 Cor 3:9-11

 

If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.  1 Cor 3:17

 

If God calls something holy and it is for the life-giving benefit of all and through Christ, should it not be recognized as the primary source of Holy Spirit?  Little relevance given this Temple is no relevance given Christ; and he, as well as God’s administration become lower in authority than man himself.  This is the making of a mockery of the arm of God. Isa 59:1

 
Hi Witness, sorry it took me a while to get back to you.  I did read your response several times.  I will again repeat as often as necessary:
 
The spiritual paradise I mentioned revolves around the truth, specifically the ministry and gospel message of Christ concerning the good news of the kingdom.  This appears to be Jesus main focus when he began his ministry and what he taught his followers to pray for considering the verses below:  
 

Luke 4:43 But he said to them: “Also to other cities I must declare the good news of the kingdom of God, because for this I was sent forth.”

Luke 8:1 Shortly afterwards he went journeying from city to city and from village to village, preaching and declaring the good news of the kingdom of God. And the twelve were with him,

Matt 6:9 “YOU must pray, then, this way:  “‘Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified. 10 Let your kingdom come.
 
Matt 5:10 “Happy are those who have been persecuted for righteousness’ sake, since the kingdom of the heavens belongs to them.

Matt 5:5 Happy are the mild_-tempered, since they will inherit the earth.

 

The gospel message would also include the news of Jesus' death and resurrection for forgiveness of sins, which paves the way for many to gain everlasting life.  Therefore, I found the assertions below unfounded:

 
 
 
Witness said: 
 
"that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved."  Rom 10:9

 

We cannot preach this in the organization and avoid disfellowshipping, since this is a rejection of the image of the organization as a source of salvation.  Rev 13:15  Disfellowshipping is a cutting off, a silencing and a depiction of one viewed as spiritually "dead".

I believe this view of the organization as a spiritual paradise is dangerous ground.  Considering that there are major problems, but allegiance to it must persist, each heart is placed in jeopardy.  Why should one tolerate major problems when we each are responsible for sole devotion to and in our service to God and Jesus?
 
End Quote

 

Rom 9:22 If, now, God, although having the will to demonstrate his wrath and to make his power known, tolerated with much long-suffering vessels of wrath made fit for destruction, 23 in order that he might make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy, which he prepared beforehand for glory, 24 namely, us, whom he called not only from among Jews but also from among nations, [what of it]?
 
If now, God has tolerated the ruining of his creation by sinful man, and devastating wickedness, I would consider that to be dealing with a major problem.  Surely, if God has put up with these conditions for thousands of years so that we might be saved, the least we can do is try to get along while voicing our concerns.
 
Although we may be dealing with what can seem to be insurmountable problems, shameful injustices, issues mishandled or not properly addressed, whether past, present, or future, the same could be said of the first century congregation and of Christendom as a whole; except not all have truth.  A team of wild horses could not drag me back as this would be the dog returning to its vomit.  I appreciate what we do have even if it's not perfect. 
 
If for example, Hannah took offense at a priest accusing her of being drunk and decided never to go back to the temple, she would not have had the opportunity to have a child such as Samuel that grew up as a faithful servant of God and to the nation of Israel.  Hannah could have taken the position that a priest being the anointed of God, should have known she was not drunk, but instead added to all the hurt she had experienced from a rival wife. 
 
 
You praised some of the "prophets of old who led people correctly", such as Moses, etc.  These men were not perfect and failed in their duties as well.  Many of these priests, prophets and rulers led the wayward nation of Israel to their destruction, not once, but twice.  Samuel himself witnessed priests taking women to lie down with them in the temple.  Priests and rulers alike were responsible for the abuse and burning of children as sacrifices, and the misapplying of law to take land away from widows and orphans also leading ultimately to the nation's demise.
 
Moses himself failed to sanctify Jehovah before the nation of Israel and was not allowed lead the people into the Promise Land, neither was he himself allowed in.  The society has in every instance never failed in leading the organization proclaiming and praising Jehovah's name in all the world.  However, this seems to escape your recognition.  Moses also failed to even circumcise his own son except under threat of death from an angel.  King David led thousands of Israelites to their death by an illegal census and murdered a man to hide his adultery.  King Saul was also anointed of God at one time and he led his men to disobey God's instructions.  He was removed by God as I'm sure you remember.  God has removed and devastated nations and kings.  He too has the power to correct his people or congregations.
 
 
 
 
Witness said:
 
If our rulers are misleading and causing confusion how can they be blessed with Holy Spirit?
 
End Quote
 
 
 
I would like to know who you consider to be "our rulers"? 
 
 
 
 
Witness said:
 

This is hardly the case when the “Temple” is treated as such:

 

Anointed Christians do not feel that they should spend time only with other anointed ones, as if they were members of a club. They do not try to find other anointed ones so that they can talk about being anointed or meet in groups to study the Bible. (Galatians 1:15-17) The congregation would not be united if anointed ones did this. They would be working against the holy spirit, which helps God’s people to have peace and unity.  W 16/1 pp. 20-26

 

This truly is blaspheming God’s name and suffocating the Body of Christ.  The uniting of the congregation is through the unification of the Body and allows Holy Spirit to flow to the advantage of everyone. 1 Cor 2:13  The words of the WT are in severe contradiction to scripture and the building up of the Temple.

 
End Quote
 
 
 
In rebuttal, the priests of Israel did not just congregate among themselves.  They were scattered throughout the twelve tribes of Israel and they cooperated with the prophets, older men and kings.  I also see where the kings, older men/elders and prophets provided more instruction than the priests. 
 
Numbers 11:25 Then Jehovah came down in a cloud and spoke to him and took away some of the spirit that was upon him and put it upon each of the seventy older men. And it came about that as soon as the spirit settled down upon them, then they proceeded to act as prophets; . . . 29 However, Moses said to him: “Are you feeling jealous for me? No, I wish that all of Jehovah’s people were prophets, because Jehovah would put his spirit upon them!” 30 Later Moses withdrew to the camp, he and the older men of Israel.
 
 


 
Witness said:
 
Was the institution of the early temple ignored before Jesus came?  The early tabernacle held God’s presence.  Ex 40:36-38.  Later the temple replaced the tabernacle as representation of God’s presence among his people. 2 Chron. 7:16; Ezek. 37:26-28  The newly created Temple, Christ's Body,  through the New Covenant exists within the anointed ones. 
 
End Quote
 
 
 
In the past, God's spirit allowed the anointed ones to heal the sick, open the eyes of the blind, resurrect the dead, speak boldly before governors and kings about the magnificent things of God.  The anointed were happy to be ridiculed, humiliated and face all sort of persecution and death, but yet now at this time of the end, how can they be silent, oppressed and voiceless of their lowly status and servitude?  Surely, God's spirit has not failed them:            "The newly created Temple, Christ's Body" or "anointed ones"
 
 
 
Witness said:
 

The “worship of angels” is the abnormal admiration given anointed ones – the GB – over the whole of the Body of Christ. Angels are God's messengers, God's messengers are also his "priests". (Mal 2:7)  If the Body is to remain inseparable and to grow through its adherence to each other, superiority and ruling over other members of this Body shows that evidence of those lording it over their own body members as disconnected with the Head, who is Christ. Mark 10:42

Even though there are conflicting teachings, unfulfilled end time dates, child abuse cases gone to court, evidence brought out by the organization itself that faith in anything like it is idolatry (still, identity to it is required), you still believe the organization is a spiritual paradise?
 
 
End Quote
 
 
 
I myself haven't see any "lording it over" of the anointed by the governing body(anointed), or them being given "abnormal admiration" or "worship of angels".  What I do see is jealousy and envy of a great magnitude and all sort of grumblings and complaints online which I'm not sure why.  If anyone can do any better in proclaiming the kingdom, perhaps God will help them exceed.
 
I grew up among the many churches and denominations where people glorified the pastor and their wives at least once or twice a year with a special program, food and songs, not to mention special anniversaries.  I've never been asked to praise a certain elder or circuit overseer or governing body member.  At best we share meals to visiting guest speakers and their wives. 
 
It would also be very difficult to pinpoint for a certain which of the anointed are responsible for any particular misinformation of dates, filing away or sweeping under the rug allegations of abuse, etc. whether it started within Christendom or Barbour, Brother Russell, Rutherford, Knorr, . . . governing body, committees, congregation of elders (anointed or not).  At this point, I'm not sure what the solution would be since all are imperfect and fallible.  Even those that had direct communication with God, such as the apostles, prophets and priests were wrong from time to time and had to be corrected.  Many continued to worship Jehovah faithfully among the nation of Israel or in the congregations, and I would still consider our basis tenets of faith as true worship and a spiritual paradise with no comparison among the nations or Christendom. 
 
 
 
Lastly:
 
Witness said:
 

I should clarify how this happens.  If I was to spread the words I earlier stated to my fellow JWs after speaking to elders about such a biblical based belief, disfellowshipping ensues, and it happens every day.  Now, if I were to deny scriptural admonition to preach this new found enlightenment for fear of being shunned and then just walk away, I may be left alone and could continue in good standing with the congregation.  But, of course, this goes against scripture to remain silent.  

 
End Quote:
 
 
From the scripture you quoted, I think all brothers and sisters would agree with you concerning that particular verse and I still cannot see where quoting scripture would result in disfellowshiping.  However, if you feel a need to bring up all these other issues or they continue to disturb your conscience, maybe you should pray fervently to Jehovah to help you do what's right in this regard.  Sometimes it helps just to write things down or even send an anonymous letter to the society about all your concerns.  One thing I've learned is that there comes a time when no one has an answer or can help us except Jehovah and that is the time we truly need to let him work things out for our benefit or the benefit of his people.  I spoke to one young man that was not a witness that he should write his concerns to the society and he said after he did he feel peace about the issue he had with a brother and he wasn't going to worry about it any more.  The important thing is to continue in the things of Christ by following his example and not let divisiveness conquer us which was the beginning of so many sects and denominations today. 
 
 
Concerning the issue of idolatry or your assertion of allegiance, I have covered in my original response to you.  If you would like me to post that response I will or if you wish to continue these bones of contention, please respond and I will reply when I can.
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On 4/28/2016 at 4:56 PM, Jesus.defender said:

If the name Jehovah is so important, then why is it never used in the entire Greek New Testament? If men edited out the name of God, "YHWH" when they copied the New Testament, as only the Watchtower organization claims, then how can we have any confidence in any of the New Testament? Should we discard the New Testament or the Watchtower organization as unreliable?
 

good questions. I have one to add:

If God's name was removed and MAN had to put it back in, then this is saying that God cannot preserve His own word without the help of MAN. So is this what JW's actually believe, that God is powerless to preserve His own word without the help of men?

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I preach amongst the Muslim community (Arabic) and one of the first verses I show them is Ex 3:15.  I also show them the scriptures where Abraham built an altar to 'Jehovah' before he went to Egypt and when he came back he offered up a sacrifice again to 'Jehovah'.  Moses speaks of not knowing Jehovah in its causative context. They knew Jehovah's name but they had not seen him in physical action.  It was during the 10 plagues that they really came to see the power of Jehovah and physical evidence that he existed.  The fire cloud at night and a cloud by day that lifted when they had to move camp. During this time they received so much evidence of him being a "reality" and consequently were forged into one dedicated nation for his Name.  Even though some individuals did see the miracles they still did not show faith.    

Jesus predicted that false religion would become powerful when he gave them the parable about the weeds that would be sown in the night by the enemy (Satan) in the good field that was prepared by Jesus... the parable goes on to show that only at the end of time the "harvest time" would identify the true and false Christians.  False religion has tried to eradicate the bible and Jehovah's name.  They did not manage to eradicate the Bible or Jehovah's name.  In Daniel 12 it talks about those in the time of the end who would "search" and 'understand'... and it is referring to our time.  We are now living in the time when Jehovah's purpose and his name is very clear to all who listen to our message.  Soon Jehovah shall "prove to be" - the causative form of "I am".  All nations will have to acknowledge that he is the true God by name as Ezekiel 38: last verse indicates.

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On 5/24/2016 at 8:07 AM, Shiwiii said:

good questions. I have one to add:

If God's name was removed and MAN had to put it back in, then this is saying that God cannot preserve His own word without the help of MAN. So is this what JW's actually believe, that God is powerless to preserve His own word without the help of men?

The point is, Jehovahs Witnesses cannot PROVE that Gods' name was removed.

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53 minutes ago, Jesus.defender said:

The point is, Jehovahs Witnesses cannot PROVE that Gods' name was removed.

Below are some references online to the divine name in other Bibles or some older manuscripts or fragments:

1.   http://www.eliyah.com/yhwhdss.html  - "Yahweh's name is found in the Dead Sea Scrolls over 2200 times."

 

2.  (Removal of God's name replaced with LORD) 

  KJV - Psalm 83:18  That men may know that thou, whose name alone is Jehovah, art the most high over all the earth.

  NKJV - Psalm 83:18  That they may know that You, whose name alone is the Lord,
Are the Most High over all the earth. 

 

 

3.  https://fromthesunrising.wordpress.com/2010/09/26/the-divine-namespoken-by-jesus-and-early-christians/

" However, there were evidences found out from some fragments of original Septuagint which have excavated as it was from the Old Testament written in Greek. One of these fragments was found by researchers and gave them a dating from 50 B.C. to 50 C.E. Below are pictures of those fragments which contain tetragrammaton and had taken from Wikipedia’s site.  You can see the picture from this link site: http://www.eliyah.com/lxx.html"  ". . . Thus he denied the evidence of Origen that in the more accurate manuscripts the Divine Name was written in ancient (palaeo-Hebrew) script and the later testimony of Jerome to the same effect. As Waddell pointed out, Baudissin’s summary statement is “flatly disproved” by the Fouad Papyrus, and now a Qumran fragment of Leviticus ii-iv, written in a hand closely akin to Fouad 266, has been found to render the Tetragrammaton by IAW. Kahle is also of the opinion, and claims the concurrence of C.H. Roberts, that in the Rylands Papyrus Greek 458, at Deuteronomy xxvi.17 where the text breaks off just before the appearance of the Divine Name, the original bore not Kyrios as Roberts originally supposed, but the unabridged Tetragrammaton. It would seem therefore that the evidence most recently to hand is tending to confirm the testimony of Origen and Jerome, and that Kahle is right in holding that LXX texts, written by Jews for Jews, retained the Divine Name in Hebrew Letters (palaeo-Hebrew or Aramaic) or in the Greek imitative form PIPI, and that its replacement by Kyrios was a Christian innovation.[22]"

"The fact is, according also to some Talmud that have found, there are rabbis who killed people with scrolls having tetragrammaton and who did not refrain from pronouncing the divine name. The underlying fact is that they gathered most of the scrolls with tetragrammaton and burned them all and have made new copies of scrolls of the Old Testament with Kurios/Kyrios. And consequently have scrupulously translated new manuscripts of the New Testament with Kyrios as a substitute for tetragrammaton and then buried their revised scrolls."

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4 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

Again, all your references are about the Septuagint, which is the OT not the NT. So until you can produce evidence that supports your theory of the new being in the NT your argument is a strawman.

I do apologize, I thought I was responding to defender as it seems that chip is still on your shoulder.  To clarify the matter, I understand your main concern is with the NT and not the OT.

There is some proof that the original writings of the NT did contain the divine name, but upon speaking with so many about this issue, it appears they would prefer solid proof like a NT manuscript or fragment of sort that contains the complete tetragrammaton of God's name whereas we only have a short form of God's name in the NT that is also pronounced in the names of many Jews and prophets.  I'm also not quite sure the reason or backlash against JWs on this matter as this argument did not start with JWs, and neither did they make it up.  At any rate, below are some examples or quotes concerning these issues, which I'm sure you may already be aware of, so excuse me for being redundant:

 

1).  HALLELUJAH - (Hal·le·lu′jah). A transliteration of the Hebrew expression ha·lelu-Yah′, appearing first at Psalm 104:35.

 

(Psalm 104:35) The sinners will be finished off from the earth; And as for the wicked, they will be no longer. Bless Jehovah, O my soul. Praise Jah, YOU people! (NWT)

 

Rev 19:1  King James Bible - And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

Rev 19:1 - New International Version - After this I heard what sounded like the roar of a great multitude in heaven shouting: "Hallelujah! Salvation and glory and power belong to our God,

(Revelation 19:1) After these things I heard what was as a loud voice of a great crowd in heaven. They said: “Praise Jah, YOU people! The salvation and the glory and the power belong to our God, (NWT)

 

2.  "Some examples include Isaiah [Jehovah's help or salvation], Jehoshua [Jehovah a helper], Jehu [Jehovah is He]. In the entry, Jehovah, Smith writes: "JEHOVAH (יְהֹוָה, usually with the vowel points of אֲדֹנָי; but when the two occur together, the former is pointed יֱהֹוִה, that is with the vowels of אֱלֹהִים, as in Obad. i. 1, Hab. iii. 19:"[96] This practice is also observed in many modern publications, such as the New Compact Bible Dictionary (Special Crusade Edition) of 1967 and Peloubet's Bible Dictionary of 1947."  - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah

 

(Isa'iah) [Salvation of Jehovah]; (Jeremi'ah) [possibly, Jehovah Exalts; or, Jehovah Loosens [likely from the womb]]; (Obadi'ah) [Servant of Jehovah]; (Zephani'ah) [Jehovah Has Concealed (Treasured Up)]; (Zechari'ah) [Jehovah Has Remembered]; Jesus (Greek, I.e.sous’; Hebrew, Jeshua, (Yeshua); Jehoshua (Yehoshua) meaning “Salvation [or Help] of Jah (Yah) [Jehovah/Yehovah].”

 

"The consensus among scholars is that the historical vocalization of the Tetragrammaton at the time of the redaction of the Torah (6th century BCE) is most likely Yahweh. The historical vocalization was lost because in Second Temple Judaism, during the 3rd to 2nd centuries BCE, the pronunciation of the Tetragrammaton came to be avoided, being substituted with Adonai ("my Lord"). The Hebrew vowel points of Adonai were added to the Tetragrammaton by the Masoretes, and the resulting form was transliterated around the 12th century as Yehowah.[1] The derived forms Iehouah and Jehovah first appeared in the 16th century."  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah

 

 

3.  "Origen wrote of the Septuagint: “In the most accurate manuscripts THE NAME occurs in Hebrew characters, yet not in today’s Hebrew [characters], but in the most ancient ones.” - http://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/nwt/appendix-a/tetragrammaton-divine-name/

 

4.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetragrammaton_in_the_New_Testament:

A passage recorded in the Hebrew Tosefta, Shabbat 13:5, quoting Tarfon is sometimes cited to suggest that early Christian writings or copies contained the Tetragrammaton.[5]

Shabbat 13:5

— A. The books of the Evangelists and the books of the minim they do not save from a fire [on the Sabbath]. They are allowed to burn up where they are, they and [even] the references to the Divine Name that are in them.[6]

This same source quotes Rabbi Jose the Galilean (who lived in the 1st and 2nd centuries of the common era): “one cuts out the references to the Divine Name which are in them [the Christian writings] and stores them away, and the rest burns.”[citation needed]

Laurence Schiffman[7] views this as a discussion of whether to rescue section of the sifre minim (Hebrew language texts of Jewish Christians) containing the tetragrammata from a house fire. Another interpretation suggests this is a reference to Old Testament Torah and not the Gospels.[8]

Although none of the extant Greek New Testament manuscripts contain the Tetragrammaton, scholar George Howard has suggested that the Tetragrammaton appeared in the original New Testament autographs,[9] and that "the removal of the Tetragrammaton from the New Testament and its replacement with the surrogates κυριος and θεος blurred the original distinction between the Lord God and the Lord Christ."[9] In the Anchor Bible Dictionary, Howard states: "There is some evidence that the Tetragrammaton, the Divine Name, Yahweh, appeared in some or all of the OT quotations in the NT when the NT documents were first penned."[9]:392

Along with Howard, David Trobisch and Rolf Furuli both have suggested that the Tetragrammaton may have been removed from the Greek manuscripts.[10]:66–67[11]:179–191 In the book Archaeology and the New Testament, John McRay wrote of the possibility that the New Testament autographs may have retained the divine name in quotations from the Old Testament.[12]Robert Baker Girdlestone stated in 1871 that if the Septuagint had used "one Greek word for Jehovah and another for Adonai, such usage would doubtless have been retained in the discourses and arguments of the N.T. Thus our Lord in quoting the 110th Psalm,...might have said 'Jehovah said unto Adoni.'"[13] Since Girdlestone's time it has been shown that the Septuagint contained the Tetragrammaton, but that it was removed in later editions.[14]

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13 hours ago, JaniceM said:

Below are some references online to the divine name in other Bibles or some older manuscripts or fragments:

1.   http://www.eliyah.com/yhwhdss.html  - "Yahweh's name is found in the Dead Sea Scrolls over 2200 times."

 

2.  (Removal of God's name replaced with LORD) 

  KJV - Psalm 83:18  That men may know that thou, whose name alone is Jehovah, art the most high over all the earth.

  NKJV - Psalm 83:18  That they may know that You, whose name alone is the Lord,
Are the Most High over all the earth. 

 

 

3.  https://fromthesunrising.wordpress.com/2010/09/26/the-divine-namespoken-by-jesus-and-early-christians/

" However, there were evidences found out from some fragments of original Septuagint which have excavated as it was from the Old Testament written in Greek. One of these fragments was found by researchers and gave them a dating from 50 B.C. to 50 C.E. Below are pictures of those fragments which contain tetragrammaton and had taken from Wikipedia’s site.  You can see the picture from this link site: http://www.eliyah.com/lxx.html"  ". . . Thus he denied the evidence of Origen that in the more accurate manuscripts the Divine Name was written in ancient (palaeo-Hebrew) script and the later testimony of Jerome to the same effect. As Waddell pointed out, Baudissin’s summary statement is “flatly disproved” by the Fouad Papyrus, and now a Qumran fragment of Leviticus ii-iv, written in a hand closely akin to Fouad 266, has been found to render the Tetragrammaton by IAW. Kahle is also of the opinion, and claims the concurrence of C.H. Roberts, that in the Rylands Papyrus Greek 458, at Deuteronomy xxvi.17 where the text breaks off just before the appearance of the Divine Name, the original bore not Kyrios as Roberts originally supposed, but the unabridged Tetragrammaton. It would seem therefore that the evidence most recently to hand is tending to confirm the testimony of Origen and Jerome, and that Kahle is right in holding that LXX texts, written by Jews for Jews, retained the Divine Name in Hebrew Letters (palaeo-Hebrew or Aramaic) or in the Greek imitative form PIPI, and that its replacement by Kyrios was a Christian innovation.[22]"

"The fact is, according also to some Talmud that have found, there are rabbis who killed people with scrolls having tetragrammaton and who did not refrain from pronouncing the divine name. The underlying fact is that they gathered most of the scrolls with tetragrammaton and burned them all and have made new copies of scrolls of the Old Testament with Kurios/Kyrios. And consequently have scrupulously translated new manuscripts of the New Testament with Kyrios as a substitute for tetragrammaton and then buried their revised scrolls."

But you JWS say that it was removed from the KJV.

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