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Jack Ryan

Do people really need to know and use the word "Jehovah" or other language equivalents, to truly know God?

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I saw this post by the Librarian under Abrahamic Religions and it got me thinking:

The Jews don't refer to this name.... even though they worship "Yahweh"..... isn't it the same God?  The "Name" is not really an important issue.

"Elohim" is the term often used in the Bible..... Why not use that? It was good enough for Moses! Shouldn't it work for us?

 

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God's name appeared originally in the Bible almost 7,000 times, so I don't think it was God's decision for His name not to be spoken or excluded from the Bible or pronounced only as Elohim/God. 

 

I recall speaking to some Jews and they often refer to God as "The Name" ("haShem").  They will also write G-d, instead of God.  Maybe they felt God's name was too sacred to be spoken or disrespectful to be mispronounced, however, I think it's very disrespectful not to acknowledge God's name or deny even the correct spelling and title of God.  We do have a short form of God's name in scripture, Yah/Jah.  Despite their best objective not to say God's name or keep it hidden, God's name is not entirely lost as they fail to realize, many Jewish names include this short form or sound which they speak regularly: 

 

(Isa'iah) [Salvation of Jehovah]; (Jeremi'ah) [possibly, Jehovah Exalts; or, Jehovah Loosens [likely from the womb]]; (Obadi'ah) [Servant of Jehovah]; (Zephani'ah) [Jehovah Has Concealed (Treasured Up)]; (Zechari'ah) [Jehovah Has Remembered]; Jesus (Greek, I.e.sous’; Hebrew, Jeshua, (Yeshua); Jehoshua (Yehoshua) meaning “Salvation [or Help] of Jah (Yah) [Jehovah/Yehovah].”  (Hal·le·lu jah).

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The patriarchs knew God's name.  However, they did not know what God's name meant until God reveal this information to Moses.

Gen 12:7 Jehovah now appeared to Abram and said: “To your seed I am going to give this land.” After that he built an altar there to Jehovah, who had appeared to him. 8 Later he moved from there to the mountainous region to the east of Bethel and pitched his tent with Bethel on the west and Ai on the east. Then he built an altar there to Jehovah and began to call on the name of Jehovah.

 

Exo 6:20 Now Amram took Jochebed his father’s sister as his wife. Later she bore him Aaron and Moses. And the years of Amram’s life were a hundred and thirty-seven years. (Jochebed means “Jehovah is glory.)

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They did not, back up in your Exodus quote to verse 2. 

 

"And God went on to speak to Moses and to say to him 'I am Jehovah. And I used to appear to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as God Almighty,  but as respects MY NAME JEHOVAH I DID NOT make myself known to them"

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The verses can mean more than what we read on the surface in the English translation.

 

One way we can understand the verses in the Bible is by comparing other verses in the scriptures.

 

For example, Jesus said:

Luke 10:22  All things have been delivered to me by my Father, and who the Son is no one knows but the Father; and who the Father is, no one [knows] but the Son, and he to whom the Son is willing to reveal him.”

 

Of course, the prophets, apostles, disciples, and Jews knew Jehovah and knew his name but not in the same way Jesus knew the Father.

 

Notice in Exodus 6, verse 3, God says, "I did not make myself known to them."  However, God did make himself known to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and spoke to them.  Also, if Lot knew God's name and Moses' mother was named after Jehovah, then all the Israelites knew God's name. i. e. Gen 19:18 Then Lot said to them: “Not that, please, Jehovah!

 

What is meant by the verse is that God had not revealed that his name meant he was the God capable of carrying out and fulfilling all of the promises made to their forefathers.  God's name basically means, he causes to become.  This was definitely a new understanding of God to know him and what his name meant towards his people.  I have included below a commentary from Chabad.org.

 

    Hello guest!

"but [with] My name YHWH, I did not become known to them: It is not written here לֹא הוֹדַעְךְתִּי, “but My Name YHWH I did not make known to them,” but לֹא נוֹדַעְךְתִּי, “I did not become known.” [I.e.,] I was not recognized by them with My attribute of keeping faith, by dint of which My name is called YHWH, [which means that I am] faithful to verify My words, for I made promises to them, but I did not fulfill [them while they were alive]."

 

 

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All one has to do is remember who wrote the first books of the Bible, Moses! Of course Moses would write God's name where it belonged and where He spoke with the patriarchs. This is because Moses knew it. I understand your point, and agree that they didn't know the full extent of God's character. However, God appeared to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as God Almighty.  That was how he was known to them.

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Jesus always referred to God as Father, which should help us realize there is more than just pronouncing his name in order to know him.  Jesus made mention many times that by accepting him and his teachings one could know the Father.  The book of John is incredible in shedding light on how to know God.

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you had known me, you would have known my Father also.  From now on you do know him and have seen him.”  John 14:6,7

Philip still had to ask,

“Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.” Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?  Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works.  Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else believe on account of the works themselves.”  John 14:8-11

More good scriptural proof that by knowing Christ we can know God:

 And I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me that they may be one, even as we are one.  John 17:11

O righteous Father, even though the world does not know you, I know you, and these know that you have sent me. I made known to them your name, and I will continue to make it known, that the love with which you have loved me may be in them, and I in them.”  John 17:25,26

These reveal that with the coming of Christ, the best way to understand and know God is by knowing Christ. To the Jews who thought they knew God, he said:

“I am the one who bears witness about myself, and the Father who sent me bears witness about me.”  They said to him therefore, “Where is your Father?” Jesus answered, “You know neither me nor my Father. If you knew me, you would know my Father also.”  John 8:18,19

Jesus answered, “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say, ‘He is our God.’ But you have not known him. I know him. If I were to say that I do not know him, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and I keep his word Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad.”  John 8:54-56

 “I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word. Now they know that everything that you have given me is from you.  For I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours.  All mine are yours, and yours are mine, and I am glorified in them.  And I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me that they may be one, even as we are one.  While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.  John 17:6-12

God’s name is known by receiving Christ’s words and believing in him, recognizing that he is the Bread of Life coming down from the Father.  By receiving that bread/teachings/life, we come to know the Father who is its ultimate source.  John 6:33,51  We do this with loving gratitude for such a wonderful gift.

Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.  John 14:23

Obeying all of God’s laws fulfilled in Christ is motivated by love and faith, which then allows us to be “one” with the Father and Christ (John 17:11).  

When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him. And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.   John 17:1-3

The Father knew how far his people had strayed from serving him, thus knowing him was impossible.  What a gift we have in Christ; all eyes should be on him and him only to lead us to the Father.  He is the mediator of all men, anointed and those not anointed.  Our salvation has come to us through Christ; our heart’s devotion and obedience to his teachings can lead us to love him.  By doing so, we then come to know and love God, the Father. 

Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ  and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith—  that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death,  that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead.  Phil 3:8-11

Thus says the Lord: “Let not the wise man boast in his wisdom, let not the mighty man boast in his might, let not the rich man boast in his riches,  but let him who boasts boast in this, that he understands and knows me, that I am the Lord who practices steadfast love, justice, and righteousness in the earth. For in these things I delight, declares the Lord.”  Jer 9:23,24

Righteousness from God comes through Christ; accepting this in faith leads to knowing God.

“For in these things I delight, declares the Lord.”

and lo, a voice out of the heavens, saying, `This is My Son -- the Beloved, in whom I did delight.'   Matt 3:17      Young’s Literal Translation

Can we simply address God as “Father” in the same manner as Christ and it be acceptable?  Indeed, Christ is our example to follow. There is an account in Malachi 2 where God is relating the iniquities of his priests failing to honor God’s name.

A son honors his father, and a slave his master. If I am a father, where is the honor due me? If I am a master, where is the respect due me?” says the Lord Almighty.

It is you priests who show contempt for my name. “But you ask, ‘How have we shown contempt for your name?’  “By offering defiled food on my altar. “But you ask, ‘How have we defiled you?’

“By saying that the Lord’s table is contemptible. When you offer blind animals for sacrifice, is that not wrong? When you sacrifice lame or diseased animals, is that not wrong? Try offering them to your governor! Would he be pleased with you? Would he accept you?” says the Lord Almighty.  “Now plead with God to be gracious to us. With such offerings from your hands, will he accept you?”—says the Lord Almighty. Mal 1:6-9

Sacrifices today by anointed ones is the fruit of the lips, (Mal 2:7; 1 Pet 2:5; Heb 13:15) which can be defiled through wrong teachings and dishonoring God’s name.  If these teachers fail to show the sheep the honor due the Father, how would it be presented?

Jesus said, that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.  John 5:23

Does the organization honor the Son just as it honors the Father? Can we honor the Father but not the Son?   Mark 7:6

 

 

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Yes, we do honor the son just as we honor the Father.  Honor, can mean showing a deep or high respect for others.  However, honor does not always translate into worship.  I can honor my father by showing the same respect and obedience to my mother.  I would not honor my mother any less.  As you quoted previously, "the Father loves the Son and has given all things into his hand." (John 3:35) Therefore we honor the son the same because he has been appointed to act as judge and God's representative.  Such as the case with a human judge or the superior authority.  We respect or honor all officials whether police or mayor for they represent the superior authority of the government, judge or court.  

 

I agree, we can know God's way and many attributes about him through the way Jesus spoke and relayed information about him.  To really know God, we must also love him and work to have a relationship with him as many people know God and who he is or may be as Almighty God and Creator, but they fail to abide by his righteous principles. 

 

The scriptures indicate, it's also important to know God's name.  We gather this from the scriptures:

(Romans 10:13) For “everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved.”  Quoted from:

(Joel 2:32) And it must occur that everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will get away safe; for in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will prove to be the escaped ones, just as Jehovah has said, and in among the survivors, whom Jehovah is calling.”

 

Before the "great and fear-inspiring day of Jehovah", all people will have the opportunity to obey God; to know his name; put faith in him and all that his name means to accomplish and fulfill his promises. (Mal 4:5)

 

(Romans 10:14-16) However, how will they call on him in whom they have not put faith? How, in turn, will they put faith in him of whom they have not heard? How, in turn, will they hear without someone to preach? 15 How, in turn, will they preach unless they have been sent forth? Just as it is written: “How comely are the feet of those who declare good news of good things!” 16 Nevertheless, they did not all obey the good news. For Isaiah says: “Jehovah, who put faith in the thing heard from us?”

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12 hours ago, JaniceM said:


Before the "great and fear-inspiring day of Jehovah", all people will have the opportunity to obey God; to know his name; put faith in him and all that his name means to accomplish and fulfill his promises. (Mal 4:5)

 

 

Very true, and as brought out through scriptures I have earlier sited, this is through knowing Jesus Christ, who fulfills God’s promises. 

 

If Jesus said to his disciples, “if you have seen me, you have seen the Father”, and “believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me”, then we learn not just “many” of God’s attributes, but all of them.  He assured us, “But I know Him, for I am from Him, and He sent Me.”  John 7:29

 

Then Jesus spoke to them again, saying, “I am the light of the world. He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life.”  John 8:12

 

Oh, send out Your light and Your truth! Let them lead me; Let them bring me to Your holy hill And to Your tabernacle.  Ps 43:3  (John 14:6)

 

The scriptures you relate in Rom 10:14-16 are directing us to Christ.  Rom 10:16 is referring to Isa 53:1 and the coming of the Savior:

 

Who has believed our report?
And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?

For He shall grow up before Him as a tender plant,
And as a root out of dry ground.
He has no form or comeliness;
And when we see Him,
There is no beauty that we should desire Him.
He is despised and rejected by men,
A Man of sorrows and acquainted with grief.
And we hid, as it were, our faces from Him;
He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.

 

Rom 10:17 clarifies this report that needs to be heard, “So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.”

 

Through the words of Christ, God’s name is made known in the time of the end! Paul’s sincerity shown in how important these words of Christ should be to us are made evident in Romans 10:1-11:

 

Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God for them is that they may be saved. For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. For, being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

 

For Moses writes about the righteousness that is based on the law, that the person who does the commandments shall live by them. But the righteousness based on faith says, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) “or ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. 11 For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” 

 

The word of salvation in Christ should be as close to us as our faith in God, the Father.  We are told by these words to confess with our mouth the Lord Jesus which is our belief in God’s righteousness; and how we deeply, not superficially, make God’s name known - not by mere utterance of a rendition of such a sacred name - but by accepting this righteous gift of salvation and making it known to the world.

 

If we refuse to embrace this teaching, we are then no different than those Paul speaks of as having a zeal for God, but “not according to knowledge”.  We both accept this righteous gift and proclaim it, or we shame God by our refusal to declare it with our own mouth.  If it was the early apostles’ priority, it should be ours.  Are we ashamed of making this proclamation the first and foremost on our lips? Rom 10:16-21

 

But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?” 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

 

 But I ask, have they not heard? Indeed they have, for

 

“Their voice has gone out to all the earth,
    and their words to the ends of the world.”

 

19 But I ask, did Israel not understand? First Moses says,

 

“I will make you jealous of those who are not a nation;
    with a foolish nation I will make you angry.”

 

20 Then Isaiah is so bold as to say,

 

I have been found by those who did not seek me;
    I have shown myself to those who did not ask for me.”

 

21 But of Israel he says, “All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and contrary people.”

 

Rom 10:11  For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.”

 

We can confess a belief in Christ, yet prove to fail at proclaiming his words which God our Father demands that we do.  We can say we have “found” Christ, “seen” him through his word, but if we do not seek him or ask God to thoroughly know him; then yes, we are a “disobedient and contrary people”. 

 

“The one who hears you hears me, and the one who rejects you rejects me, and the one who rejects me rejects him who sent me.”  Luke 10:16

 

The one who rejects me and does not receive my words has a judge; the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day.” 

 

We have a great example of how God’s name is magnified through the prayer of Mary. 

 

 And Mary said,

 

“My soul magnifies the Lord,
 and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,
for he has looked on the humble estate of his servant.

 

   For behold, from now on all generations will call me blessed;
for he who is mighty has done great things for me,
    and holy is his name.
 And his mercy is for those who fear him
    from generation to generation.
 He has shown strength with his arm;
    he has scattered the proud in the thoughts of their hearts;
he has brought down the mighty from their thrones
    and exalted those of humble estate;
 he has filled the hungry with good things,
    and the rich he has sent away empty.
He has helped his servant Israel,
    in remembrance of his mercy,
 as he spoke to our fathers,
    to Abraham and to his offspring forever.”  Luke 1:46-55

 

The basis of this beautiful prayer that manifests God’s name, was the promise fulfilled of deliverance of his people – how so?  Through Christ. I believe our words should also proclaim such reverence when declaring the good news of God’s Kingdom; which begs me to ask, what testimony are we giving, man's words of salvation through organization, or God's words through his Son?

If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater, for this is the testimony of God that he has borne concerning his Son. Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son. 11 And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. 1 John 5:9-12

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Hi Jay,

Thank you for your response. 

The holy scriptures are from God, not men, which I'm sure we can both agree. 

Romans 10:13 

    Hello guest!
- “For everyone who will call the name of THE LORD JEHOVAH shall be saved.”

(Zephaniah 3:9) For then I shall give to peoples the change to a pure language, in order for them all to call upon the name of Jehovah, in order to serve him shoulder to shoulder.’  (NWT)

 

I don't know of any position whereby Jehovah's Witnesses have stated knowing God's name alone is enough.  There are many that know the name of God including Satan.

 

I don't see a matter of this or that, but this and that.  Men knew God before revealing the significance of his name.  Men also knew God and relied upon him before Jesus came as his representative and explained him and his purposes more fully.  As a matter of fact, Abraham knew God as his friend and called upon his name.  Abraham knew God and obeyed him.  We can know God through that which is revealed in all the scriptures and through his son, Jesus Christ.  We can know God also by knowing his name and what it means.  And yes, there are many that confess they know Jesus; that he is Christ the lord and savior; yet Christ himself says he does not know them for they are workers of lawlessness.  In disobedience they fail to obey the father or the son and their faith is in vain. 

 

Specifically, at this point, I'm not sure what the issue is, or major point of disagreement.  You mentioned proclaiming

"such reverence when declaring the good news of God’s Kingdom".

 Perhaps you can clarify what you mean exactly so that we are not going in circles or on a wild goose chase.  Do you feel the son should be worshiped as the Almighty Father?  If so, do you think this message should be incorporated in some kind of preaching work?  Is there an organization or religious body you feel is more actively proclaiming this message?

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2 hours ago, JaniceM said:

son should be worshiped as the Almighty Father

"Just" should be in place between "worshiped" and "as" in your statement, according to John 5:23

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1 hour ago, Shiwiii said:

"Just" should be in place between "worshiped" and "as" in your statement, according to John 5:23

 

John 5:23  [

    Hello guest!
] - THAT ALL MAY-BE-VALUING THE SON according-AS THEY-ARE VALLING THE FATHER THE-one NO VALUING THE SON NOT IS-VALUING THE FATHER THE One-SENDing

 

John 5:23 

    Hello guest!
- so that everyone may honor the Son as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.

 

John 5:23 

    Hello guest!
- That everyone should honor The Son as one honors The Father. He who does not honor The Son is not honoring The Father who sent him.

 

John 5:23 

    Hello guest!
- so that everyone will honor the Son as they honor the Father. Whoever doesn't honor the Son doesn't honor the Father who sent him.

 

John 5:23 

    Hello guest!
- That all men may honour the Son, as they honour the Father. He who honoureth not the Son, honoureth not the Father, who hath sent him.

 

John 5:23 

    Hello guest!
- that all may honour the Son according as they honour the Father; he who is not honouring the Son, doth not honour the Father who sent him.

 

The word "as" does appear in some translations, however the word, "worshiped" does not.  My question remains for Jay:  Do you feel the son should be worshiped as the Almighty Father?  The implication would be the same.  I will be here the rest of the evening for discussions.

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Hi JaniceM,

I am sorry to confuse you, but I do have a point I'm trying to get at.  Maybe by the end here?

It is interesting that in Romans 10:13, that although the Wt. Kingdom Greek Interlinear says,

“everyone who likely might call upon the name of the Lord (Kupiou) will be saved”…the Watchtower took the liberty to translate Lord as Jehovah.  Now, of course there are numerous cases in the scriptures where this applies to God.  With this particular scripture, though, Romans 10:9 helps us to see just which “Lord” it is addressing, and yet because both Christ and the Father are as one, could it be either?

“because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. “

Would this not be the same as calling on the name of Jesus?  I think this is what I’m getting at.  The concentration given God is by far, extremely important; but also very important is our Savior Jesus Christ, who is left out of the circle in the writings of the Watchtower.  Instead, “Jehovah” and the “Organization” are primary.  Isn’t this how it is portrayed in the magazines over and over?

Consider all the scriptures where “ the name of Jesus” is used.  Here are a few of them:

"And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit"  Acts 2:38

"But Peter said, “I have no silver and gold, but what I do have I give to you. In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, rise up and walk!”  Acts 3:8

"for he had not yet fallen on any of them, but they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus."  Acts 8:16

"But Barnabas took him and brought him to the apostles and declared to them how on the road he had seen the Lord, who spoke to him, and how at Damascus he had preached boldly in the name of Jesus." Acts 9:27

"Then Paul answered, “What are you doing, weeping and breaking my heart? For I am ready not only to be imprisoned but even to die in Jerusalem for the name of the Lord Jesus.”  Acts 21:13

And more.

People were healed, they “preached boldly”, were ready to die, and were saved (Acts 2:38) all in the name of and for, Jesus.  It is perfectly acceptable to say we are saved in the name of Jesus, since Revelation backs this up:

and crying out with a loud voice, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!”  Rev 7:10

Savior does not only refer to the Father:

Truly, you are a God who hides himself, O God of Israel, the SaviorIsa 45:15

But also to the Son:

Of this man's offspring God has brought to Israel a Savior, Jesus, as he promised.   Acts 13:23

This is the indication of their oneness of Spirit.  So yes, we can say, “Everyone who will call on the name of the Lord (Jesus) shall be saved”

There is no organization needed to proclaim this message.  During the time of the end, we know Christ makes the call for his people to repent of any sins, partake of his spiritual “meal” and ready ourselves for his appearance.

“Then I heard another voice from heaven saying,

“Come out of her, my people,
    lest you take part in her sins,
lest you share in her plagues;
for her sins are heaped high as heaven,
    and God has remembered her iniquities.  Rev 18:4,5

God’s people are his chosen ones and all those righteous hearted ones along with them..  I think we need to question just where these sins and iniquities are to be found that we are to come out of.  Obviously it is his own people who are at fault, not the entire world.  The iniquities of God’s people have always been found among them.

"if my people who are called by my name humble themselves, and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and heal their land."  2 Chron 7:14

"And he said, “Amos, what do you see?” And I said, “A basket of summer fruit.” Then the Lord said to me, “The end has come upon my people Israel; I will never again pass by them."  Amos 8:2

"Thus says the Lord concerning the prophets who lead my people astray, who cry “Peace” when they have something to eat, but declare war against him who puts nothing into their mouths." Micah 3:5

The invitation by Christ is this:

"Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me".  Rev 3:20

"Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you."  Matt 7:7

We are “saved” according to our faithfulness toward God’s Son, not through an organization.  It is by our “testimony” that life is gained.

“And this is the testimony,  that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son”.  1 John 5:11

"To this end we always pray for you, that our God may make you worthy of his calling and may fulfill every resolve for good and every work of faith by his power,  so that the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in you, and you in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ." 2 Thess 1:11,12

The early apostles preached God in conjunction with Jesus.  They clearly showed the harmony of salvation through Jesus and by the Father.  As Jesus and God are as one, the apostles preached this by their testimony. 

"I, John, your brother and partner in the tribulation and the kingdom and the patient endurance that are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos on account of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus."  Rev 1:9

I don’t see this accomplished in the organization, not at all. Instead, the testimony is of the organization and God.  Those two, on the other hand, could never be one in spirit. 

“To whom will you liken me and make me equal,
    and compare me, that we may be alike?
Those who lavish gold from the purse,
    and weigh out silver in the scales,
hire a goldsmith, and he makes it into a god;
    then they fall down and worship!

Remember this and stand firm,
    recall it to mind, you transgressors,
    remember the former things of old;
for I am God, and there is no other;
    I am God, and there is none like me,”  Isa 46:5,6,8,9

Even though we may acknowledge Jesus, If our message does not give testimony of him, then we are showing the Father that we reject his message.

“Nevertheless, many even of the authorities believed in him, but for fear of the Pharisees they did not confess it, so that they would not be put out of the synagogue; for they loved the glory that comes from man more than the glory that comes from God. 

“And Jesus cried out and said, “Whoever believes in me, believes not in me but in him who sent me.  And whoever sees me sees him who sent me.  I have come into the world as light, so that whoever believes in me may not remain in darkness.  If anyone hears my words and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world.  The one who rejects me and does not receive my words has a judge; the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day For I have not spoken on my own authority, but the Father who sent me has himself given me a commandment—what to say and what to speak.  And I know that his commandment is eternal life. What I say, therefore, I say as the Father has told me.”  John 12:42-50

 

 

 

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"The word "as" does appear in some translations, however the word, "worshiped" does not.  My question remains for Jay:  Do you feel the son should be worshiped as the Almighty Father?  The implication would be the same.  I will be here the rest of the evening for discussions."

 

Yes, one must do the same to one as the other. You quoted many different versions,  but the meaning is the same. Whatever you do for the Father, you must also do for the Son, or else you are not honoring as the same. It is pretty clear. Anyone can find a loophole in terminology,  but the meaning is clear. It is not about words but of equality. 

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21 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

"The word "as" does appear in some translations, however the word, "worshiped" does not.  My question remains for Jay:  Do you feel the son should be worshiped as the Almighty Father?  The implication would be the same.  I will be here the rest of the evening for discussions."

 

Yes, one must do the same to one as the other. You quoted many different versions,  but the meaning is the same. Whatever you do for the Father, you must also do for the Son, or else you are not honoring as the same. It is pretty clear. Anyone can find a loophole in terminology,  but the meaning is clear. It is not about words but of equality. 

  •  

The reason I posted other translations is to compare how the verse could be translated and because you related:

"Just" should be in place between "worshiped" and "as" in your statement, according to John 5:23"

 

 

"Just" appears to be a filler word and does not appear in all translations of the Bible.

 

If I honor both my mother and father, I would honor them both the same as I would not honor my mother less than my father.  This is clear.  It is not clear that Jesus should be worshiped as the Father, if the verse doesn't say worship.  Honor doesn't translate as worship at John 5:23, at least in any translations that I've found, and that is clear.

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I think where we are having differences is the application of likeness, or equality.  That is what is being conveyed in the scripture based on the Greek word used. 

 

G2531

καθώς

kathōs

kath-oce'

From 

    Hello guest!
 and 
    Hello guest!
 ; just (or inasmuch ) {as} that: - according {to} ({according} even) {as} {how} when.

 

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The same, not anything different.  Your relationship with your parents is different,  but you respect them the same. This is saying our relationship should be the same, and our devotion should be the same.... respect,  honor, worship, fear, admiration, love, subjection,  adherence,  etc.

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Let me ask you, does the Son deserve riches, wisdom, glory, honor, might and power? The same is said of the Father , "glory and honor and power"

 

Revelation 4:11 AND  Revelation 5:10

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God said for the angels to worship Jesus, Hebrews 1:6, buy yet the angel said to John "do not do that. I am a fellow servant of yours and of your brethren the prophets and of those who heed the words of this book. Worship God" Revelation 22:9. So who's wrong the angels or God. Jesus said "go satan, for it is written,  you shall worship the LORD your God, and serve Him only" did God contradict Himself when He commanded the angels to worship Jesus?

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God elevates Jesus to a superior position so he would deserve whatever glory, power, honor, etc, that his Father bestows upon him.  The Father does not give his glory to anyone, but the glory Jesus receives, he gives to those that would serve with him.

 

(Revelation 5:10) and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”

 

The Heavenly Father also receives from the newly installed kings(elders with crowns), glory, honor and praise as he deserves having created all things.

 

Rev 4:9 And whenever the living creatures offer glory and honor and thanksgiving to the one seated upon the throne, the one that lives forever and ever, 10 the twenty-four elders fall down before the One seated upon the throne and worship the One that lives forever and ever, and they cast their crowns before the throne, saying: 11 “You are worthy, Jehovah, even our God, to receive the glory and the honor and the power, because you created all things, and because of your will they existed and were created.”

 

When God's kingdom began ruling in the heavens, he took over power and operation in the heavens and soon the earth by appointing Jesus as representative of his kingdom.  Satan has been given power and authority to rule for a time.  When God's kingdom was established in the heavens, he was hurled down to the earth.

 

(Revelation 11:17) saying: “We thank you, Jehovah God, the Almighty, the One who is and who was, because you have taken your great power and begun ruling as king.


(Matthew 6:10) Let your kingdom come. Let your will take place, as in heaven, also upon earth.


(Revelation 12:10) And I heard a loud voice in heaven say: “Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our God!

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Concerning the word for worship, it was used often in the old language and old KJV Bible.  Worship could be applied to others as well, including prophets or kings in the OT and NT.  So it would depend upon the context and what is meant.  Example:

 

Hebrews 1:6 Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA) 6 And again, when he bringeth in the first begotten into the world, he saith: And let all the angels of God adore him. -

    Hello guest!

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Jay, again, I appreciate your response.  I did read over your words several times, and found myself disagreeing with quite a few of your assertions.


This is totally guesswork on my part as to what your major concern is, but maybe you think that we are not proclaiming Jesus' name as much or as often as we should, but elevating Jehovah's name moreso in the publications.

I reviewed the last public Watchtowers again, and in each issue, Jesus’ name is mentioned and encourages the public to put faith in him.  Jesus' name is mentioned all throughout the articles:    


No. 1/2016    Jehovah - 25; Jesus - 15
No. 2/2016    Jehovah - 19; Jesus - 68


The articles have always stressed the importance of doing the work of Jesus which God gave him to do and have always vindicated Jesus as King of God's kingdom; his death for forgiveness of sins and resurrection.  I found  continuously over and over, scriptures and words of Jesus and his instructions of how we should conduct ourselves as worshipers of the true God and in the ministry.


Also, from the verses you posted, the disciples baptized in the name of Christ (or Father, son, holy spirit), resurrected in the name of Christ, preached and died in the name of Jesus Christ, etc.  We are also doing these things in the name of Christ for we are called Christians.


In Jesus' name can also mean that we as his disciples carry out his work by the authority granted to him from above.  See excerpts below:

    Hello guest!

"If you do something in Jesus’ name it means that you do it with the authority He gave you and not on your own authority, and that you act within the limits of your authorization, whatever those limits may be. You act as His agent, in His stead, to His credit and for His benefit. You have no benefit from your deeds except His thanks and whatever reward He chooses to give you."

    Hello guest!

"What does it mean to do a thing in the name of another? It is to come with his power and authority, as his representative and substitute. Using another's name always presupposes a common interest. No one would give another the free use of his name without first being assured his honor and interests were as safe with another as with himself."

"When the Lord Jesus went to heaven, He left His work--the management of His Kingdom on earth--in the hands of His servants. He also gave them His Name to draw all the supplies they needed for the due conduct of His affairs. Christ's servants have the spiritual power to use the Name of Jesus only insofar as they yield themselves to live only for the interests and the work of the Master. The use of the Name always supposes the surrender of our interests to Him Whom we represent."

 

While, some denominations will shout certain phrases over and over, i.e. ‘GET SAVED IN THE NAME OF JESUS!’, there is no reason to beat people over the head continuously.  We can simply say we are saved by our faith in Christ.  I see no reason to make a mountain out of a mole hill.


Eph. 2:8, 9, RS: “By grace [“undeserved kindness,” NW] you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God—not because of works, lest any man should boast.


I agree that only God as Almighty Savior through Christ’s sacrifice is our means of salvation.  No other person or organization can do this.  I have come to the conclusion that many persons may repent and come to accept the kingdom before the time of the end whether they are baptized JW’s or not; at least this is my hope, they become sheep and not continue as goats.  The wheat and the weeds have grown up together, and at this time of the end being separated.  I know that many persons left Egypt and resided with the nation of Israel receiving the blessings and the curse.  We may not agree with every single understanding of scripture, but let us not look for reasons to be full of discontent.  The world is divided and easily works to tear us apart and I will not echo their thoughts or be influenced anymore by such.


I do however, disagree there is no need for organization.  God organized the Israelites for worship, and Jesus organized his disciples for the preaching work sending them out by two’s and from city to city, village to village.  They continued going house to house after Jesus death and resurrection in this way and eventually to the nations.  There is just no other organization to actively proclaim God’s kingdom.  People have to know they have a choice for a strong leader and not imperfect men in a world destined to be destroyed.  They do not have to believe lies, floating away to heaven or burning forever in fire.  

 

Whatever wrongs we have done or committed, we have to live with as we are not perfect even though people expect us to be, and pray that God corrects and refines us to continue the work Jesus gave us to do and try to correct those wrongs and repair broken trust.


Lastly, I disagree that confessing or declaring Jesus as our Lord and Savior, (Rom 10:9), is the same as everyone who calls upon the name of Jehovah, (Rom 10:13).


Checking other Bible translations and/or commentaries, I didn’t see where the Watchtower is totally without basis in their translation of Romans 10:13:  


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Romans 10:13 Aramaic Bible in Plain English - “For everyone who will call the name of THE LORD JEHOVAH shall be saved.”


Romans 10:13  New Living Translation - For "Everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved."


Romans 10:13  DNKJ - For whosoever shall call upon the name of the LORD,( Jehovah Jol 2:31,32 2Ti 2:19 ) shall be saved. - See more at: 

    Hello guest!


Romans 10:13  New King James Version (NKJV) - For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”[a] Footnotes:  Romans 10:13, Joel 2:32


Romans 10:13  Complete Jewish Bible (CJB) - since everyone who calls on the name of Adonai will be delivered.[a] Footnotes:  Romans 10:13, Joel 3:5(2:32)


Romans 10:13  Kehillah in Rome Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB)  - For V’HAYAH KOL ASHER YIKRA B’SHEM ADONOI ("Everyone whoever calls upon the Name of the L-rd" YOEL 3:5 [2:32]) shall be delivered.


Commentaries:  

Romans 10:13  Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers - Upon the name of the Lord.—Originally, as meaning “of Jehovah,” but with especial reference to the Messianic Advent. Here, therefore, it is applied to our Lord.

Romans 10:13  Expositor's Greek Testament  - For every one who invokes the name of the Lord shall be saved. The words are from Joel 3:5 (= Joel 2:32 LXX). “The Lord” in the original is Jehovah; here, manifestly, Christ—a proof how completely Christ stands in God’s place in all that concerns salvation.

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8 hours ago, JaniceM said:

 

Concerning the word for worship, it was used often in the old language and old KJV Bible.  Worship could be applied to others as well, including prophets or kings in the OT and NT.  So it would depend upon the context and what is meant.  Example:

 

Hebrews 1:6 Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA) 6 And again, when he bringeth in the first begotten into the world, he saith: And let all the angels of God adore him. -

    Hello guest!

You have completely ignored my post about John 5:23. I will post it again and look for your response:

 

I think where we are having differences is the application of likeness, or equality.  That is what is being conveyed in the scripture based on the Greek word used. 

 

G2531

καθώς

kathōs

kath-oce'

From 

    Hello guest!
 and 
    Hello guest!
 ; just (or inasmuch ) {as} that: - according {to} ({according} even) {as} {how} when.

The same, not anything different.  Your relationship with your parents is different,  but you respect them the same. This is saying our relationship should be the same, and our devotion should be the same.... respect,  honor, worship, fear, admiration, love, subjection,  adherence,  etc.

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5 hours ago, JaniceM said:

Also, from the verses you posted, the disciples baptized in the name of Christ (or Father, son, holy spirit), resurrected in the name of Christ, preached and died in the name of Jesus Christ, etc.  We are also doing these things in the name of Christ for we are called Christians.

The WT does not baptize in the name of the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit, nor do they baptize in the name of Christ. How can you think that is so? 

 

5 hours ago, JaniceM said:

We can simply say we are saved by our faith in Christ.  I see no reason to make a mountain out of a mole hill.

Doesn't the WT believe that they are the way to salvation? And without association with them, there is no salvation? 

 

5 hours ago, JaniceM said:

Whatever wrongs we have done or committed, we have to live with as we are not perfect even though people expect us to be, and pray that God corrects and refines us to continue the work Jesus gave us to do and try to correct those wrongs and repair broken trust.

Who was claimed to have given the guidance to the Faithful and Discreet slave which turned out to be wrong teachings?

In your statement here, you make it seem as if it was just imperfect men who got it wrong, and God straightened it out. But on who's authority was the wrong proclaimed? was it not God's according to the society? 

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2 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

You have completely ignored my post about John 5:23. I will post it again and look for your response:

 

I think where we are having differences is the application of likeness, or equality.  That is what is being conveyed in the scripture based on the Greek word used. 

 

G2531

καθώς

kathōs

kath-oce'

From 

    Hello guest!
 and 
    Hello guest!
 ; just (or inasmuch ) {as} that: - according {to} ({according} even) {as} {how} when.

The same, not anything different.  Your relationship with your parents is different,  but you respect them the same. This is saying our relationship should be the same, and our devotion should be the same.... respect,  honor, worship, fear, admiration, love, subjection,  adherence,  etc.

 

Sorry Shiwii, I had other fish to fry or either I didn't see a need to respond to foolishness when having given a common sense answer, especially if I'm going out of my way to look up the verses which don't seem important enough for you to quote yourself.

 

(John 5:23) in order that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He that does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.

 

However, I did answer your question which I will again and which you did not like the answer.  God said honor your father and your mother.  The honor is equal as I would not honor my mother less than my father because he is head.  To be less honorable to my mother would be showing disrespect to my father also.

 

As to what other likeness or equality you want to compare, feel free to elaborate.  However, if your words don't make sense, I might not feel compelled to respond except to say, there are different levels of love and hate, worship, honor, etc.  For example, we are commanded to love our enemies, but we would not love our enemies the same as we love our family because our family comes first.  We are told we must hate our mother and father or our own souls, but that is not an intense hate but not love them more than we love following Christ.  Words can be used in different ways including the word that was used for worship in the original languages.

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3 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

The WT does not baptize in the name of the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit, nor do they baptize in the name of Christ. How can you think that is so? 

 

Doesn't the WT believe that they are the way to salvation? And without association with them, there is no salvation? 

 

Who was claimed to have given the guidance to the Faithful and Discreet slave which turned out to be wrong teachings?

In your statement here, you make it seem as if it was just imperfect men who got it wrong, and God straightened it out. But on who's authority was the wrong proclaimed? was it not God's according to the society? 

 

I usually watch the baptisms from my seat, but when I was baptized I clearly heard the brother(s)say before I was submerged, in the name of the Father, son, holy spirit.  I never heard anyone say you are baptized in the name of Jehovah's organization.

 

The society does believe they have the truth to show the path to the small cramped road to life to be protected by Jehovah through the time of Armageddon.  Being that all religions pretty much say the same or proudly proclaim they are the right way, I've found the only problem is they abhor when JW's say it, which is very hypocritical.   Actual deliverance or salvation is only by means of Christ. 

 

The society has also admitted to incorrect understandings, which they have never said they were perfect or infallible as other religions have done.  I can respect that even though I may not agree with everything.  I can agree more with their understanding of scriptures than the churches I attended, so it's not a big point of contention for me although I understand it is for others.  The churches I attended taught to defend the country by engaging in war, becoming slaves to pagan traditions and taught me God wanted to burn me forever if I didn't give freely when they passed the collection plate.

 

You also engage in a twisting of words which I find very deceitful.  I believe I mentioned any wrongs we've done (or injustice), may God correct us and refine us to do better in the future to try and make amends and continue to carry out the work Jesus gave us to do.  Please try to engage in an honest discussion.

 

Actual Quote:  " Whatever wrongs we have done or committed, we have to live with as we are not perfect even though people expect us to be, and pray that God corrects and refines us to continue the work Jesus gave us to do and try to correct those wrongs and repair broken trust."

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Corrections to Public Watchtower count:

No. 1/2016    Society - 4; Organization - 0

No. 2/2016    Society - 3; Organization - 0

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50 minutes ago, JaniceM said:

Sorry Shiwii, I had other fish to fry or either I didn't see a need to respond to foolishness when having given a common sense answer, especially if I'm going out of my way to look up the verses which don't seem important enough for you to quote yourself.

you think by finding A translation that gives you support, is the collective meaning of what the verse means? Hardly.  It wasn't the verse you took so much time finding it was a translation that supports your idea. Your example of worship is noted, however the issue is what constitutes honor? It is placed value as per Strong's :

G5091

τιμάω

timaō

tim-ah'-o

From G5093 ; to {prize} that {is} fix a valuation upon; by implication to revere: - {honour} value.

 

So do you value Jesus inasmuch as the Father? Value here is equal in John 5:23. In what way does one value each of them?

1 hour ago, JaniceM said:

However, I did answer your question which I will again and which you did not like the answer.  God said honor your father and your mother.  The honor is equal as I would not honor my mother less than my father because he is head.  To be less honorable to my mother would be showing disrespect to my father also.

Again, your relationship with your Mother and Father are different, but you respect them the same. John 5:23 is saying our relationship should be the same, the same value is to be placed upon both equally and our devotion should be the same.... respect,  honor, worship, fear, admiration, love, subjection,  adherence,  etc.

1 hour ago, JaniceM said:

However, if your words don't make sense, I might not feel compelled to respond except to say, there are different levels of love and hate, worship, honor, etc.

You are free to not answer, it will not hurt my feelings. 

 

1 hour ago, JaniceM said:

Words can be used in different ways including the word that was used for worship in the original languages.

exactly, and that is where context comes into play. 

 

12 hours ago, JaniceM said:

 

Concerning the word for worship, it was used often in the old language and old KJV Bible.  Worship could be applied to others as well, including prophets or kings in the OT and NT.  So it would depend upon the context and what is meant.  Example:

 

Hebrews 1:6 Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA) 6 And again, when he bringeth in the first begotten into the world, he saith: And let all the angels of God adore him. -

    Hello guest!

here in your example, did you happen to notice that out of the 54 or so translations only two use anything other than worship? How many scholars worked on these 52 other translations? I would venture to say that they have far more knowledge on words and their meanings than you or I put together. It seems funny though that you went through all of the trouble to find one that you could quote, and ignored the 52 others. 

 

So lastly,

How does one honor Jesus and the Father equally, but yet not worship them equally? If the value is the same, then the devotion should be the same. You view of worship is actually not in question, it is what you do to one you must do to the other, according to John 5:23.

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50 minutes ago, JaniceM said:

I usually watch the baptisms from my seat, but when I was baptized I clearly heard the brother(s)say before I was submerged, in the name of the Father, son, holy spirit.  I never heard anyone say you are baptized in the name of Jehovah's organization.

fair enough, but take a look again. I can dig up the information, but it would be better if you did. 

 

52 minutes ago, JaniceM said:

The society does believe they have the truth to show the path to the small cramped road to life to be protected by Jehovah through the time of Armageddon.  Being that all religions pretty much say the same or proudly proclaim they are the right way, I've found the only problem is they abhor when JW's say it, which is very hypocritical.   Actual deliverance or salvation is only by means of Christ. 

Any group or organization who claims to be "the way" is fooling themselves and I would steer clear. Jesus is the "truth, the way and the life" no organization is the truth, no organization is the way and no organization is the life. 

54 minutes ago, JaniceM said:

The society has also admitted to incorrect understandings, which they have never said they were perfect or infallible as other religions have done.  I can respect that even though I may not agree with everything.  I can agree more with their understanding of scriptures than the churches I attended, so it's not a big point of contention for me although I understand it is for others.  The churches I attended taught to defend the country by engaging in war, becoming slaves to pagan traditions and taught me God wanted to burn me forever if I didn't give freely when they passed the collection plate.

See this wasn't the question though.  Who was claimed to have given the guidance to the Faithful and Discreet slave which turned out to be wrong teachings?  I was not quoting you, I was asking you about the wrongs that were taught. Who gave them? The FDS no? Who did they claim this authority from, to speak on Gods behalf? Maybe you should read a little slower and closely before you accuse one of deceit. 

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35 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

you think by finding A translation that gives you support, is the collective meaning of what the verse means? Hardly.  It wasn't the verse you took so much time finding it was a translation that supports your idea. Your example of worship is noted, however the issue is what constitutes honor? It is placed value as per Strong's :

G5091

τιμάω

timaō

tim-ah'-o

From G5093 ; to {prize} that {is} fix a valuation upon; by implication to revere: - {honour} value.

 

So do you value Jesus inasmuch as the Father? Value here is equal in John 5:23. In what way does one value each of them?

Again, your relationship with your Mother and Father are different, but you respect them the same. John 5:23 is saying our relationship should be the same, the same value is to be placed upon both equally and our devotion should be the same.... respect,  honor, worship, fear, admiration, love, subjection,  adherence,  etc.

You are free to not answer, it will not hurt my feelings. 

 

exactly, and that is where context comes into play. 

 

here in your example, did you happen to notice that out of the 54 or so translations only two use anything other than worship? How many scholars worked on these 52 other translations? I would venture to say that they have far more knowledge on words and their meanings than you or I put together. It seems funny though that you went through all of the trouble to find one that you could quote, and ignored the 52 others. 

 

So lastly,

How does one honor Jesus and the Father equally, but yet not worship them equally? If the value is the same, then the devotion should be the same. You view of worship is actually not in question, it is what you do to one you must do to the other, according to John 5:23.

 

Whatever relationship I have with my mother and my father, God says to honor them both and it would be equally or the same.  Honor does not mean I worship my mother and my father.  At John 5:23, honor doesn't translate as worship, no matter how many times you imply it does.

 

I gave you one example of the verse in Hebrews as an example of how the word worship can be translated.  The majority may not always reflect truth in translation, and sometimes it's best not to always follow the crowd which can lead to the broad road to destruction.  Also, I didn't want to overload the forum with scriptures, but I will post a few more examples below: 

 

Heb 1:6 Young's Literal Translation - and when again He may bring in the first-born to the world, He saith, 'And let them bow before him -- all messengers of God;'  -http://biblehub.com/hebrews/1-6.htm -

Hebrews 1:6 Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA) 6 And again, when he bringeth in the first begotten into the world, he saith: And let all the angels of God adore him. -

    Hello guest!

 

Rev 3:9 Indeed I will make those of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews and are not, but lie——indeed I will make them come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you. KJV

 

Revelation 3:9 New International Version (NIV) 9 I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews though they are not, but are liars—I will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowledge that I have loved you.

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1 hour ago, Shiwiii said:

fair enough, but take a look again. I can dig up the information, but it would be better if you did. 

 

Any group or organization who claims to be "the way" is fooling themselves and I would steer clear. Jesus is the "truth, the way and the life" no organization is the truth, no organization is the way and no organization is the life. 

See this wasn't the question though.  Who was claimed to have given the guidance to the Faithful and Discreet slave which turned out to be wrong teachings?  I was not quoting you, I was asking you about the wrongs that were taught. Who gave them? The FDS no? Who did they claim this authority from, to speak on Gods behalf? Maybe you should read a little slower and closely before you accuse one of deceit. 

 

Excuse me, your paraphrasing of my words doesn't seem to come off as a question especially if there's no question mark:

5 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

"In your statement here, you make it seem as if it was just imperfect men who got it wrong, and God straightened it out."

 

It was Jesus that formed the church or congregations to go preaching the gospel or good news message.  Whether we say church, congregation, Christian society or organization, it means some type of organization was put in place to carry out the work.  It was Jesus that gave the command to go preach to all the nations.  All Christians have been given the authority and responsibility to speak about God and carry out the work of Jesus. 

 

You can read about this commission and authority in the Bible, and about the faithful and discreet slave.

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11 hours ago, JaniceM said:

 

Jay, again, I appreciate your response.  I did read over your words several times, and found myself disagreeing with quite a few of your assertions.

 

Thank you Janice, I suppose I should let you know I am not Jay Witness who asked the question, but just Witness.  J 

I also appreciate your quotes, especially this one which verifies my own thoughts,

Romans 10:13  Expositor's Greek Testament  - For every one who invokes the name of the Lord shall be saved. The words are from Joel 3:5 (= Joel 2:32 LXX). “The Lord” in the original is Jehovah; here, manifestly, Christ—a proof how completely Christ stands in God’s place in all that concerns salvation.

The examples of numerical times that Jesus was used in the latest Wt is interesting, and I believe not the norm; beyond the numerical, one should also the question how his name is used in context.  Do the examples portray his glory?  This is what I ask myself when reading the information. Acts 13:48; John 17:1-5; 12:28;   As an example, when reading Matt 3:17 in the NWT, its rendering of eudokeō as “approved” is a far cry from any other translation I’ve come across. 

Your words,  “Also, from the verses you posted, the disciples baptized in the name of Christ (or Father, son, holy spirit), resurrected in the name of Christ, preached and died in the name of Jesus Christ, etc.  We are also doing these things in the name of Christ for we are called Christians.”

We could all call ourselves Christians, but behaving as Christ did, following directly in his path and recognizing those who teach truth are sure signs.  Have you considered the baptism questions lately?  Perhaps this has been brought out since there seems to be a lot of activity going on since I signed in.

 On the basis of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, have you repented of your sins and dedicated yourself to Jehovah to do his will? 

Do you understand that your dedication and baptism identify you as one of Jehovah's Witnesses in association with God's spirit-directed organization? Having answered yes to these questions, candidates are in a right heart condition to undergo Christian baptism."  
Wt. ‘85/6/1 p. 30

This was a big change from the previous:

 Have you recognized yourself before Jehovah God as a sinner who needs salvation, and have you acknowledged to him that this salvation proceeds from him the Father through his Son Jesus Christ

 On the basis of this faith in God and in his provision for salvation, have you dedicated yourself unreservedly to God to do his will henceforth as he reveals it to you through Jesus Christ and through the Bible under the enlightenment of the holy spirit?" Watchtower 1956 Jul 1 p.407

It is important to see the transition from….

"We do not dedicate ourselves to a religion, nor to a man, nor to an organization. No, we dedicate ourselves to the Supreme Sovereign of the Universe, our Creator, Jehovah God himself. This makes dedication a very personal relationship between us and Jehovah." Watchtower 1966 Oct 1 pp.603-604

Our Relative Subjection to the Superior Authorities
As Christians, we face up to similar challenges today. We cannot take part in any modern version of idolatry—be it worshipful gestures toward an image or symbol or the imputing of salvation to a person or an organization.
 Wt ‘90/11/1/p.26

To….

Directing Bible Students to Jehovah’s Organization 
Bible students need to get acquainted with the organization of the “one flock” Jesus spoke about at

    Hello guest!
. They must appreciate that identifying themselves with Jehovah’s organization is essential to their salvation. (
    Hello guest!
    Hello guest!
    Hello guest!
) Therefore, we should start directing our Bible students to the organization as soon as a Bible study is establish
  KM 11/90 p.1

"The wonders about Jehovah’s organization, or “Zion,” and the truth about the spiritual paradise must be joyfully passed on “to future generations.” WT 7/2015 par 13 

What confusion! Is the organization then, teaching and baptizing in the name of Christ as the early apostles did as you have stated, or are they baptizing in the name of an organization that is now called Zion, which Heb 12:22 verifies it as heavenly? How did it come about that it was considered idolatry to place salvation in an organization to then an organization becoming Zion?  Our dedication cannot be to both an organization and God, but the baptism questions lead one to believe that our identity must be to the organization.  This really is not leading one to Christ, but to a man made entity.  Jesus said we deny ourselves and follow him, not give our identity to anything other than him.  Luke 9:23; Matt 6:24

It is taught that man cannot preach effectively without the organization.  The slide rule is all over the place, as we have seen from various quotes; but the bottom line is Jesus told the woman at the well, as did Stephen prior to his stoning, that there is no physical entity needed to do God’s will and this has been brought out by the WT in the past verified by the above quotes. With Christ, it is a new worship and only in the spirit and the truth.  Our lean should be directly on the Father and Holy Spirit as our power to accomplish true preaching, as well as Jesus Christ who is truth.  John 14:6  Having such faith allows our preaching to be done effectively and pleasing to God.  Matt 17:5

Mistakes made by the organization are not brushed over or excused by making new mistakes. God set in place this provision under the New Covenant – Christ and his Chosen ones.  Instead, man has usurped this provision by insisting it be done their way; but that is not at all unusual, as sadly it is the pattern of God’s people through history. Jer 5:31

“Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness,
who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter. Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes
 and clever in their own sight.”  Isa 5:20,21

The apostles preached under the direction of Holy Spirit. “Organization” preaches detail of what a person should do or say, which displays a lack of faith in what the Father, Christ and Holy Spirit are able to instill in us to accomplish spreading the words of Christ; especially within each anointed ones who carry the burden of teaching. 1 John 3:19-24 This shows a shift from leaning on God’s direction to a leaning on, and depending on man to guide us, and it is how a centralized hierarchy develops.  We take it at man’s word that a “faithful and discreet slave” are those in high position, when in reality each anointed slave will only be considered such, through Jesus’ words directly to the individual upon Christ’s return. Rom 14:4

We must realize, shouldn’t we, that those faithful ones throughout the centuries were able to preach without an organization but only through the Holy Spirit blessing them.  Acts 1:8 

Can God, who “is spirit,” be represented by a material image? No. Regardless of how imposing an icon may be, it can never match the glory of God. So an image of God could never be a truthful representation of him. (

    Hello guest!
) Would a person be ‘worshiping in truth’ if he approached God through some man-made icon?  WT 02 7/1

These words are correct.  Yet, the teaching of ‘organization’ as Zion, God's throne, defies them entirely. It is true that you say denominations preach, “get saved in the name of Jesus”.  I believe no man made denomination has God’s blessing, but only individuals; yet we should keep in mind, it was in Acts 8:35 that Philip “preached Jesus”. What a good example for us to follow! 

So how does God feel about the changing teachings by his anointed ones?  As you see, there are two types of doctrinal teachings within the Watchtower. We must question the source as either good fruit or bad fruit since a “tree”, represented by God’s chosen ones, cannot hold both, and yet we read both! Luke 6:43  Many have lost their hope through these changing teachings such as that of “generation” over the years, but by applying pure living waters from Christ we can easily say,  “Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful.”  Heb 10:23

“ If any of you lacks wisdom, you should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to you.  But when you ask, you must believe and not doubt, because the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind That person should not expect to receive anything from the Lord.  Such a person is double-minded and unstable in all they do.  James 1:5-8

As humans loyal to a cause, an organization, a belief, we can quickly brush our mistakes aside forgetting those who may have grievously been wronged by them.  We are limited in not only our foresight but our hindsight and would rather forget what we’ve done wrong.  God is not limited at all, each person is precious. He does not excuse unrepentant acts of another causing one to stumble.  Jer 18:15; 6:16; Matt 3:3  When Jesus told Simon to feed my sheep and repeated it three times to verify that his love for others was based on his truth, (2 Cor 13:1) it was to be imparted to others also based on that same truth.

Changing doctrine is the same as “meaningless offerings” by God – after all, don’t they lose their meaning even to us when new doctrine is established, new dates are set in place?  Isa 1:13

The words of old that prophets relayed to God’s people are still in effect in every way today.  Satan’s deceptions have adjusted to appear even craftier, but the basis of God’s disapproval never changes. Mal 3:6

“Stop trusting in mere humans, who have but a breath in their nostrils. Why hold them in esteem?” Isa 2:6-22 (Isa 3:8-11)

It is a confusing mix for the brothers and sisters as to whom they should serve, the organization? God? Both? It is easier to blend them into one which then becomes idolatry, as the above quote from the organization states.  One’s fortress for salvation becomes the work of one’s own hands.  Isa 17:10,11; John 7:18; Jer 51:17

The banner we fly to make God’s name known today is not a blue one that starts with “jw….”, but a symbolic one with the name, “Jesus”.

"In that day the Root of Jesse will stand as a banner for the peoples; the nations will rally to him, and his resting-place will be glorious.  In that day the Lord will reach out his hand a second time to reclaim the surviving remnant of his people from Assyria, from Lower Egypt, from Upper Egypt, from Cush, from Elam, from Babylonia, from Hamath and from the islands of the Mediterranean. He will raise a banner for the nations and gather the exiles of Israel; he will assemble the scattered people of Judah from the four quarters of the earth."  Isa 11:10-12 (Mark 13:27; Rev 9:14); Rev 14:6

Jesus' yoke is light, not one of complicated teachings!  Matt 11:30

 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, JaniceM said:

 

Excuse me, your paraphrasing of my words doesn't seem to come off as a question especially if there's no question mark:

5 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

"In your statement here, you make it seem as if it was just imperfect men who got it wrong, and God straightened it out."

 

It was Jesus that formed the church or congregations to go preaching the gospel or good news message.  Whether we say church, congregation, Christian society or organization, it means some type of organization was put in place to carry out the work.  It was Jesus that gave the command to go preach to all the nations.  All Christians have been given the authority and responsibility to speak about God and carry out the work of Jesus. 

 

You can read about this commission and authority in the Bible, and about the faithful and discreet slave.

what does this post of yours have to do with what I wrote? I said it seemed as though your statement was made about imperfect men making assumptions and God straightened them out. 

 

1 hour ago, JaniceM said:

Whatever relationship I have with my mother and my father, God says to honor them both and it would be equally or the same.  Honor does not mean I worship my mother and my father.  At John 5:23, honor doesn't translate as worship, no matter how many times you imply it does.

How does one honor Jesus and the Father equally, but yet not worship them equally? If the value is the same, then the devotion should be the same. You view of worship is actually not in question, it is what you do to one you must do to the other, according to John 5:23.

I understand if you choose not to reply, in fact I'd rather you not if you are not going to address what I wrote and come up with some other tangent. 

 

1 hour ago, JaniceM said:

I gave you one example of the verse in Hebrews as an example of how the word worship can be translated.  The majority may not always reflect truth in translation, and sometimes it's best not to always follow the crowd which can lead to the broad road to destruction.

While I agree with you here to a point, however I cannot throw out the numerous amounts of study involved to even translate properly, let alone the many scholars it takes just for one translation of the Bible. now you want to throw out 52 translations of the Bible and cling to the two who support you? 

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1 hour ago, Shiwiii said:

what does this post of yours have to do with what I wrote? I said it seemed as though your statement was made about imperfect men making assumptions and God straightened them out. 

 

How does one honor Jesus and the Father equally, but yet not worship them equally? If the value is the same, then the devotion should be the same. You view of worship is actually not in question, it is what you do to one you must do to the other, according to John 5:23.

I understand if you choose not to reply, in fact I'd rather you not if you are not going to address what I wrote and come up with some other tangent. 

 

While I agree with you here to a point, however I cannot throw out the numerous amounts of study involved to even translate properly, let alone the many scholars it takes just for one translation of the Bible. now you want to throw out 52 translations of the Bible and cling to the two who support you? 

 

I will take your statement as confusion on your part and really bad paraphrasing, out of context imperfect "assumptions".

 

And numerous amounts of study is exactly what you should be doing as that might help you more instead of writing smart remarks in the forum.  You are out of your league here .  .  Since you have not studied, whatever 52/101 . . .  translations of the Bible I have compared, they are all different.  For example, just because the majority of Bibles may contain a variant reading or spurious text, does not mean all Bibles follow suit.  Just because the majority of Bible translations are biased in their renditions of certain verses, doesn't mean all Bibles are.

 

I also have no idea why you cannot understand simple things.  Honor can mean deep respect which is the meaning for John 5:23, not worship or equal worship.  Just as I would honor my mother and father the same, I would honor the son the same as the father.  If I dishonor the son, it would also be dishonor to his Father.  It would be the same as with human kings or their sons.

 

HONOR - The principal Hebrew term denoting “honor” is ka·vohdh′, which literally means “heaviness.” (Compare the use of related terms in 1Sa 4:18 and 2Sa 14:26.) So a person who is honored is regarded as being weighty, or amounting to something. In Greek, the noun ti·me′ conveys the sense of “honor,” “esteem,” “value,” “preciousness.” Thus the verb ti·ma′o can also mean “set a price on” (Mt 27:9); the noun ti·me′ can have the sense of “price,” “value” (Mt 27:6; Ac 4:34); and the adjective ti′mi·os can mean “esteemed,” “dear, or valuable,” and “precious.”—Ac 5:34; 20:24; 1Co 3:12.

 

If you do take the time to study, in the old KJ version of the Bible, you will find many people were actually worshiped because they represented God.

 

I'll be here the rest of the evening, so I don't mind entertaining the ramblings of others for a while longer.

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7 minutes ago, JaniceM said:

 

I will take your statement as confusion on your part and really bad paraphrasing, out of context imperfect "assumptions".

 

And numerous amounts of study is exactly what you should be doing as that might help you more instead of writing smart remarks in the forum.  You are out of your league here .  .  Since you have not studied, whatever 52/101 . . .  translations of the Bible I have compared, they are all different.  For example, just because the majority of Bibles may contain a variant reading or spurious text, does not mean all Bibles follow suit.  Just because the majority of Bible translations are biased in their renditions of certain verses, doesn't mean all Bibles are.

 

I also have no idea why you cannot understand simple things.  Honor can mean deep respect which is the meaning for John 5:23, not worship or equal worship.  Just as I would honor my mother and father the same, I would honor the son the same as the father.  If I dishonor the son, it would also be dishonor to his Father.  It would be the same as with human kings or their sons.

 

HONOR - The principal Hebrew term denoting “honor” is ka·vohdh′, which literally means “heaviness.” (Compare the use of related terms in 1Sa 4:18 and 2Sa 14:26.) So a person who is honored is regarded as being weighty, or amounting to something. In Greek, the noun ti·me′ conveys the sense of “honor,” “esteem,” “value,” “preciousness.” Thus the verb ti·ma′o can also mean “set a price on” (Mt 27:9); the noun ti·me′ can have the sense of “price,” “value” (Mt 27:6; Ac 4:34); and the adjective ti′mi·os can mean “esteemed,” “dear, or valuable,” and “precious.”—Ac 5:34; 20:24; 1Co 3:12.

 

If you do take the time to study, in the old KJ version of the Bible, you will find many people were actually worshiped because they represented God.

 

I'll be here the rest of the evening, so I don't mind entertaining the ramblings of others for a while longer.

If you have in fact studied all these versions of the Bible, then you would know that the verse we are talking about is neither variant nor spurious. I'm interested in knowing how you know so much about me and my studies? Get off your high horse, you have no idea what league I'm in. It is very telling in your response that instead of addressing the topic, you'd rather try and put me in my place. I've already given you the definition of honor, so repeating it to me only adds fluff to you post with no additional substance.

How can you dismiss the number of scholars it took to translate all of those versions of the Bible and cling to the two that support you?

I'll post this again:

How does one honor Jesus and the Father equally, but yet not worship them equally? If the value is the same, then the devotion should be the same. Please describe how this is not so. How do you place equal value, but treat them differently?

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1 hour ago, Shiwiii said:

If you have in fact studied all these versions of the Bible, then you would know that the verse we are talking about is neither variant nor spurious. I'm interested in knowing how you know so much about me and my studies? Get off your high horse, you have no idea what league I'm in. It is very telling in your response that instead of addressing the topic, you'd rather try and put me in my place. I've already given you the definition of honor, so repeating it to me only adds fluff to you post with no additional substance.

How can you dismiss the number of scholars it took to translate all of those versions of the Bible and cling to the two that support you?

 

You speak of high horses, and every response you've uttered has had an air of arrogance, hostility, and full of snide remarks, lacking scriptures and substance.  It's easy to constantly shoot off a round of rude nothingness and then call the kettle black.  If you can dish it out, be prepared to take it back.  Everyone should stay in their place or prepare to be corrected.

 

You are correct, and I never mentioned the verse in question to be considered spurious: 

 

(John 5:23) in order that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He that does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.  (NWT)

 

I did mention the majority of Bibles may have variant or spurious text.  That doesn't mean all Bibles contain the same variants or spurious text, even if they are in the minority.

 

Just because a majority of translations may render a verse in a similar fashion, also doesn't make them accurate or correct if they doesn't convey the original understanding from the original language or the equivalent today.  That's why there have been many updates to the King James Version, and most Bibles translations throughout the centuries and decades.  I think it is a bad idea to accept something just because it is the popular opinion.  Sometimes, we need to take the road less traveled. (I can repeat if necessary)

 

Also, the problem with isolating a verse is, we may not get the full context of what is being said.  So it may be best to read the whole chapter or book and research other verses from the Hebrew (OT) scriptures as well.

 

Reading the context, Jesus honor equates to the honor one gives to a judge or to a king, and by recognizing his position as such we are also honoring his God and Father, the one who placed him in such a position to rule in his place and as representing His authority.

 

(Daniel 7:14) And to him there were given rulership and dignity and kingdom, that the peoples, national groups and languages should all serve even him. His rulership is an indefinitely lasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom one that will not be brought to ruin.

 

John 5:22 For the Father judges no one at all, but he has committed all the judging to the Son, 23 in order that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He that does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him. 24 Most truly I say to YOU, He that hears my word and believes him that sent me has everlasting life, and he does not come into judgment but has passed over from death to life . . . 27 And he has given him authority to do judging, because Son of man he is.(NWT)

 

John 1:49 Na·than′a·el answered him: “Rabbi, you are the Son of God, you are King of Israel.” 50 Jesus in answer said to him: “Because I told you I saw you underneath the fig tree do you believe? You will see things greater than these.” 51 He further said to him: “Most truly I say to YOU men, YOU will see heaven opened up and the angels of God ascending and descending to the Son of man.”

 

(John 18:36) Jesus answered: “My kingdom is no part of this world. If my kingdom were part of this world, my attendants would have fought that I should not be delivered up to the Jews. But, as it is, my kingdom is not from this source.” (NWT)

 

(John 3:35) The Father loves the Son and has given all things into his hand.


(Philippians 2:10) so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground,

 

Luke 10:16 “He that listens to YOU listens to me [too]. And he that disregards YOU disregards me [too]. Moreover, he that disregards me disregards [also] him that sent me forth.”

 

 

Whereas many may feel Jesus being given the same honor or glory means the same as worship, they are free to come to that conclusion such as the commentary below:

    Hello guest!

    Hello guest!
- Verse 23. - "The purpose of the entire commission of judgment to the Son, a bestowment which illustrates the quickening results that he (who does the will of the Father) wills to effect, is now gathered to a lofty climax, abundantly vindicating the right he had claimed to call God his own Father. It is as follows, in order that all may honour the Son. Τιμῶσιν, not προσκυνῶσιν ("honour," not "worship"), is the word used; but seeing that the identical sentiment of reverence due to the Supreme Being, to the Father, is that which is here said to be due to the Son, and is here declared to be the reason why all judgment is entrusted to the issues of his will, - we are at a loss to know how loftier attributes could be ascribed to the Son."

 

Strong's Concordance for John 5:23

    Hello guest!

Thayer's Greek Lexicon

STRONGS NT 5091: τιμάω

τιμάω, τιμῶ; future τιμήσω; 1 aorist ἐτίμησα; perfect passive participle τετιμημενος; 1 aorist middle ἐτιμησαμην; (τιμή); from Homer down;

1. to estimate, to fix the value; middle to fix the value of something belonging to oneself (Vulg.appretio; cf. Hagen, Sprachl. Erörterungen zur Vulgata, Freib. 1863, p. 99): τινα (R. V. to price),

    Hello guest!
(on which see ἀπό, I. 2); the Sept. for הֶעֱרִיך,
    Hello guest!
.

2. to honor (so uniformly A. V.), to have in honor, to revere, venerate; the Sept. for כִּבֵּד: God,

    Hello guest!
;
    Hello guest!
;
    Hello guest!
;
    Hello guest!
; Christ,
    Hello guest!
; parents,
    Hello guest!
;
    Hello guest!
;
    Hello guest!
;
    Hello guest!
;
    Hello guest!
:
    Hello guest!
; other men,
    Hello guest!
;
    Hello guest!
; With πολλαῖς τιμαῖς added, to honor with many honors,
    Hello guest!
; of God, rewarding Christians with honor and glory in his kingdom,
    Hello guest!
. (Compare: ἐπιτιμάω.)

'

'




'

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I'm sorry Witness, I did read over your mail, and hope to respond soon, but I have to start working some by tomorrow.  Hopefully I won't get too much more distractions, interruptions, or butting in of conversations and I'll reread what you wrote and get back to you.  But I have a feeling I'll have to finish tying up some loose ends for at least another 24/48 hours the way things are going.

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43 minutes ago, JaniceM said:

You speak of high horses, and every response you've uttered has had an air of arrogance, hostility, and full of snide remarks, lacking scriptures and substance.  It's easy to constantly shoot off a round of rude nothingness and then call the kettle black.  If you can dish it out, be prepared to take it back.  Everyone should stay in their place or prepare to be corrected.

 

You are correct, and I never mentioned the verse in question to be considered spurious: 

 

(John 5:23) in order that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He that does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.  (NWT)

 

I did mention the majority of Bibles may have variant or spurious text.  That doesn't mean all Bibles contain the same variants or spurious text, even if they are in the minority.

 

Just because a majority of translations may render a verse in a similar fashion, also doesn't make them accurate or correct if they do not convey the original understanding from the original language or the equivalent today.  That's why there have been many updates to the King James Version, and most Bibles translations throughout the centuries and decades.  I think it is a bad idea to accept something just because it is the popular opinion.  Sometimes, we need to take the road less traveled. (I can repeat if necessary)

 

Also, the problem with isolating a verse is, we may not get the full context of what is being said.  So it may be best to read the whole chapter or book and research other verses from the Hebrew (OT) scriptures as well.

 

Reading the context, Jesus honor equates to the honor one gives to a judge or to a king, and by recognizing his position as such we are also honoring his God and Father, the one who placed him in such a position to rule in his place and as representing His authority.

 

(Daniel 7:14) And to him there were given rulership and dignity and kingdom, that the peoples, national groups and languages should all serve even him. His rulership is an indefinitely lasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom one that will not be brought to ruin.

 

John 5:22 For the Father judges no one at all, but he has committed all the judging to the Son, 23 in order that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He that does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him. 24 Most truly I say to YOU, He that hears my word and believes him that sent me has everlasting life, and he does not come into judgment but has passed over from death to life . . . 27 And he has given him authority to do judging, because Son of man he is.(NWT)

 

John 1:49 Na·than′a·el answered him: “Rabbi, you are the Son of God, you are King of Israel.” 50 Jesus in answer said to him: “Because I told you I saw you underneath the fig tree do you believe? You will see things greater than these.” 51 He further said to him: “Most truly I say to YOU men, YOU will see heaven opened up and the angels of God ascending and descending to the Son of man.”

 

(John 18:36) Jesus answered: “My kingdom is no part of this world. If my kingdom were part of this world, my attendants would have fought that I should not be delivered up to the Jews. But, as it is, my kingdom is not from this source.” (NWT)

 

(John 3:35) The Father loves the Son and has given all things into his hand.


(Philippians 2:10) so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground,

 

Luke 10:16 “He that listens to YOU listens to me [too]. And he that disregards YOU disregards me [too]. Moreover, he that disregards me disregards [also] him that sent me forth.”

 

 

Whereas many may feel Jesus being given the same honor or glory means the same as worship, they are free to come to that conclusion such as the commentary below:

    Hello guest!

    Hello guest!
- Verse 23. - "The purpose of the entire commission of judgment to the Son, a bestowment which illustrates the quickening results that he (who does the will of the Father) wills to effect, is now gathered to a lofty climax, abundantly vindicating the right he had claimed to call God his own Father. It is as follows, in order that all may honour the Son. Τιμῶσιν, not προσκυνῶσιν ("honour," not "worship"), is the word used; but seeing that the identical sentiment of reverence due to the Supreme Being, to the Father, is that which is here said to be due to the Son, and is here declared to be the reason why all judgment is entrusted to the issues of his will, - we are at a loss to know how loftier attributes could be ascribed to the Son."

 

Strong's Concordance for John 5:23

    Hello guest!

Thayer's Greek Lexicon

STRONGS NT 5091: τιμάω

τιμάω, τιμῶ; future τιμήσω; 1 aorist ἐτίμησα; perfect passive participle τετιμημενος; 1 aorist middle ἐτιμησαμην; (τιμή); from Homer down;

1. to estimate, to fix the value; middle to fix the value of something belonging to oneself (Vulg.appretio; cf. Hagen, Sprachl. Erörterungen zur Vulgata, Freib. 1863, p. 99): τινα (R. V. to price),

    Hello guest!
(on which see ἀπό, I. 2); the Sept. for הֶעֱרִיך,
    Hello guest!
.

2. to honor (so uniformly A. V.), to have in honor, to revere, venerate; the Sept. for כִּבֵּד: God,

    Hello guest!
;
    Hello guest!
;
    Hello guest!
;
    Hello guest!
; Christ,
    Hello guest!
; parents,
    Hello guest!
;
    Hello guest!
;
    Hello guest!
;
    Hello guest!
;
    Hello guest!
:
    Hello guest!
; other men,
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;
    Hello guest!
; With πολλαῖς τιμαῖς added, to honor with many honors,
    Hello guest!
; of God, rewarding Christians with honor and glory in his kingdom,
    Hello guest!
. (Compare: ἐπιτιμάω.)

 

Summary:  The Christians also receive honor and the same glory from Christ which he receives from his Father.  But they are not worshiped the same as the Father even though they reflect the same glory of God and receive the same glory given to Christ.

 

2 Corinthians 3:17 Now Jehovah is the Spirit; and where the spirit of Jehovah is, there is freedom. 18 And all of us, while we with unveiled faces reflect like mirrors the glory of Jehovah, are transformed into the same image from glory to glory, exactly as done by Jehovah [the] Spirit.

 

John 17:22 Also, I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one.

 

(Hebrews 1:2, 3) has at the end of these days spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the systems of things. 3 He is the reflection of [his] glory and the exact representation of his very being, and he sustains all things by the word of his power; and after he had made a purification for our sins he sat down on the right hand of the Majesty in lofty places.

 

Now I will finish off my using the same method of reasoning:  Does receiving the same image and glory as Christ receives from the Father mean others should be worshiped as Christ or God?

 

Let see what Strong says:

    Hello guest!

    Hello guest!

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance

dignity, glory, honor, praise, worship.

From the base of

    Hello guest!
; glory (as very apparent), in a wide application (literal or figurative, objective or subjective) -- dignity, glory(-ious), honour, praise, worship.

see GREEK

    Hello guest!

 

Rev 3:9 Indeed I will make those of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews and are not, but lie——indeed I will make them come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you. KJV

 

Quote
Corrections/Additions
 
 
Strong's Concordance
doxa: opinion (always good in N.T.), hence praise, honor, glory

Original Word: δόξα, ης, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: doxa
Phonetic Spelling: (dox'-ah)
Short Definition: honor, renown, glory splendor
Definition: honor, renown; glory, an especially divine quality, the unspoken manifestation of God, splendor.

 

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16 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

you think by finding A translation that gives you support, is the collective meaning of what the verse means? Hardly.  It wasn't the verse you took so much time finding it was a translation that supports your idea. Your example of worship is noted, however the issue is what constitutes honor? It is placed value as per Strong's :

G5091

τιμάω

timaō

tim-ah'-o

From G5093 ; to {prize} that {is} fix a valuation upon; by implication to revere: - {honour} value.

 

So do you value Jesus inasmuch as the Father? Value here is equal in John 5:23. In what way does one value each of them?

Again, your relationship with your Mother and Father are different, but you respect them the same. John 5:23 is saying our relationship should be the same, the same value is to be placed upon both equally and our devotion should be the same.... respect,  honor, worship, fear, admiration, love, subjection,  adherence,  etc.

You are free to not answer, it will not hurt my feelings. 

 

exactly, and that is where context comes into play. 

 

here in your example, did you happen to notice that out of the 54 or so translations only two use anything other than worship? How many scholars worked on these 52 other translations? I would venture to say that they have far more knowledge on words and their meanings than you or I put together. It seems funny though that you went through all of the trouble to find one that you could quote, and ignored the 52 others. 

 

So lastly,

How does one honor Jesus and the Father equally, but yet not worship them equally? If the value is the same, then the devotion should be the same. You view of worship is actually not in question, it is what you do to one you must do to the other, according to John 5:23.

It seems you are not reading the context of John 5:23.  The context gives the reason WHY we honour the Son as we would the Father:

 

Joh 5:19  So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise.
Joh 5:20  For the Father loves the Son and shows him all that he himself is doing. And greater works than these will he show him, so that you may marvel.
Joh 5:21  For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom he will.
Joh 5:22  The Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son,
Joh 5:23  that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.
Joh 5:24  Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
Joh 5:25  "Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.
Joh 5:26  For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself.
Joh 5:27  And he has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man.
 

This passage is about honouring the Son because of the authority in judgement and raising the dead, which the Father has granted to the Son.  It is not about the equality of the Father and Son.

D

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9 hours ago, JaniceM said:

I did mention the majority of Bibles may have variant or spurious text.  That doesn't mean all Bibles contain the same variants or spurious text, even if they are in the minority.

But this is what you were implying or else you would have never mentioned it in the first place because it has no bearing on the topic discussed. 

 

9 hours ago, JaniceM said:

Just because a majority of translations may render a verse in a similar fashion, also doesn't make them accurate or correct if they doesn't convey the original understanding from the original language or the equivalent today.  That's why there have been many updates to the King James Version, and most Bibles translations throughout the centuries and decades.  I think it is a bad idea to accept something just because it is the popular opinion.  Sometimes, we need to take the road less traveled. (I can repeat if necessary)

We are talking about multiple scholars here, not public opinion. These men and women have studied and trained to do this very thing, translate. This is not some flippant group of people who have no Biblical training but want to write their own version. There are some who have done so, with little or no training what so ever other than a semester or two of Hebrew or Greek. Are you really trying to throw their education aside and lump them in with the uneducated opinions? That to me would be dishonest and insulting. 

 

9 hours ago, JaniceM said:

Reading the context, Jesus honor equates to the honor one gives to a judge or to a king, and by recognizing his position as such we are also honoring his God and Father, the one who placed him in such a position to rule in his place and as representing His authority.

But this is not what the scripture says now is it? It clearly states that one must honor the Son inasmuch as one honors the Father. From John chapter 5 verse 16 through to 28 is dealing with the equality and authority of Jesus. 

 

16 And this was why the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because he was doing these things on the Sabbath. 17 But Jesus answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I am working.”18 This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

Who said that Jesus was equal with God? was it Jesus? yes, but more so it was John recording what the Jewish leaders understood Jesus' words to mean. This was not by accident, Jesus didn't mince words, He knew exactly what they would think. Do you believe that Jesus didn't realize what His statement would mean? Of course He did. This would have been a perfect time for Jesus to correct them if He mislead them. He didn't, because He conveyed exactly what He intended to. 

19 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father[e] does, that the Son does likewise. 20 For the Father loves the Son and shows him all that he himself is doing. And greater works than these will he show him, so that you may marvel. 21 For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives lifeto whom he will. 22 The Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father.Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.

I see you have also quoted a portion of this and Donald has brought it up as well. Interesting to note in verse 21, Jesus gives life to whom He wishes. Does Jesus have to run it by His Father first? Nope. He has free will to give to whom He pleases. The Son can do what the Father can do, because He and the Father work in conjunction. This is demonstrative of Jesus' own will, which by the way is NOT contradictory to the will of the Father. 

24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.25 “Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. 27 And he has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man.

Jesus statement of hearing His word AND believing in the Father, one gains eternal life. Think about that for a moment, the Jews had the word of God in the OT, and now Jesus is saying these must hear (not just listening to the audible voice, but understanding) his words in conjunction with belief in the Father to gain eternal life. The Jews would never think of such, it would be blasphemy. Again, Jesus authority and equality is shown here because this is what God had told the Jews. 

 

Donald Diamond,

I would write the same response to you as I did here regarding these verses. The context is showing both the equality and authority of Jesus. You are right, the context gives us the reason why we honor the Son just the same as we honor the Father. 

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12 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

 

Donald Diamond,

I would write the same response to you as I did here regarding these verses. The context is showing both the equality and authority of Jesus. You are right, the context gives us the reason why we honor the Son just the same as we honor the Father. 

Hello  Shiwii,

 

I am glad that you can see that the passage gives us the reason why we honour the Son as we honour the Father.   But the passage is clearly saying that the Son and the Father God are not equal because the Son derives his authority from the Father.  We honour both the Father and the Son but for different reasons.   It is because the Son derives his authority from the Father, that we honour the Son,  not because they are intrinsically equal in authority which is what you appear to be claiming.   I don't see how you can read this passage in any other way.  The Father does not derive His authority from the Son.

D

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1 hour ago, Donald Diamond said:

Hello  Shiwii,

 

I am glad that you can see that the passage gives us the reason why we honour the Son as we honour the Father.   But the passage is clearly saying that the Son and the Father God are not equal because the Son derives his authority from the Father.  We honour both the Father and the Son but for different reasons.   It is because the Son derives his authority from the Father, that we honour the Son,  not because they are intrinsically equal in authority which is what you appear to be claiming.   I don't see how you can read this passage in any other way.  The Father does not derive His authority from the Son.

D

 I do not believe that the Father and the Son have equal authority. The Father is over the Son. What I said was that the Son and the Father deserve the same honor as stated in verse 23. This honor is placing value as we discussed earlier in this thread. This value is the point being made. If one values the Father greater than the Son then the value is not equal and this is not proper according to the scripture. I pose the same question to you:

How does one honor Jesus and the Father equally, but yet not worship them equally? If the value is the same, then the devotion should be the same. Please describe how this is not so. How do you place equal value, but treat them differently?

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3 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

 I do not believe that the Father and the Son have equal authority. The Father is over the Son. What I said was that the Son and the Father deserve the same honor as stated in verse 23. This honor is placing value as we discussed earlier in this thread. This value is the point being made. If one values the Father greater than the Son then the value is not equal and this is not proper according to the scripture. I pose the same question to you:

How does one honor Jesus and the Father equally, but yet not worship them equally? If the value is the same, then the devotion should be the same. Please describe how this is not so. How do you place equal value, but treat them differently?

It is very simple.   I honour my mother as I honour my father.  I honour my mother for different reasons than I honour my father.   In both cases, I honour them, but it is not the "same" honour as it is for different reasons.    Scripture tells us to honour those to whom honour is due - the reasons for that honour is different in each case.   Receiving honour is not a definition of deity.   In scripture we honour the Father for being God - we honour the Son for dying for us - something God could not do as He cannot die.

I do not see in scripture the concept of "equal worship".  The derivation of the word sometimes translated "worship" is simply "to bow the knee".  Sometimes it ids bowing to God, sometimes to humans beings.  The Israelites worshipped Jehovah (YHWH) and the king (I Chron 29:20) 

1Ch 29:20  And David said to all the assembly, Now bless Jehovah your God. And all the assembly blessed Jehovah, the God of their fathers, and bowed down their heads, and worshipped Jehovah, and the king. (ASV)

- it is describing one act.  Do you consider this "equal worship"?  It clearly doesn't  mean that the human king is Jehovah.

 

D.

 

 

 

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25 minutes ago, Donald Diamond said:

It is very simple.   I honour my mother as I honour my father.  I honour my mother for different reasons than I honour my father.   In both cases, I honour them, but it is not the "same" honour as it is for different reasons.    Scripture tells us to honour those to whom honour is due - the reasons for that honour is different in each case.   Receiving honour is not a definition of deity.   In scripture we honour the Father for being God - we honour the Son for dying for us - something God could not do as He cannot die.

You do honor your parents in different ways, but the respect you give them is equal. The devotion you give to them (in a normal functioning family) is equal, Their value to you is equal (50% dad's input and 50% mom's for your being here). If I understand your point correctly is that your relationship between them in different. I would agree. As far as honor being the definition of deity, you are correct, but who else in the Bible are we told to honor equally with the Father? There is no one else to which this honor is applied equally, except Jesus.

 

28 minutes ago, Donald Diamond said:

do not see in scripture the concept of "equal worship".  The derivation of the word sometimes translated "worship" is simply "to bow the knee".  Sometimes it ids bowing to God, sometimes to humans beings.  The Israelites worshipped Jehovah (YHWH) and the king (I Chron 29:20) 

 

The equality is in the description of honor and how that honor is applied. It is a value you place on. Like before, your parents each have a value of 50% of your being brought into this world. This is not an absolute because some people do not place equal value to each of their parents, but for the sake of argument it is what I am using to convey the message. Here in the verse we are talking about equal value is to be placed upon the Son as is to the Father. How one chooses to act this honor out is the difference between what you are I are saying. If we both are called to the Royal palace, how would we show honor to the Queen? Would it be acceptable if we have different ways of doing this? likely not. 

 

39 minutes ago, Donald Diamond said:

- it is describing one act.  Do you consider this "equal worship"?  It clearly doesn't  mean that the human king is Jehovah.

 I do not consider this equal. This is where the word worship, as you pointed out, is the act of paying homage. I understand and agree with you on "worship" can mean to bow down, or fall face down. Now what do you do with scriptures that use the same word proskuneō after the description of already being bowed down?

Like for instance Matthew 4:9  "And he said to him, “All these I will give you, if you will fall down and worship me.” 

Is this just homage or is it actual worship? It would be actual worship because the act of bowing down has already been done, thus there would be more to the word proskuneō based on the context. Don't you agree? 

 

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To add to this honor worship issue, I want to bring out a scripture that shows a little more clearly why I see worship (true worship) as a form of honor. 

 Mark 7:6 And he said to them, “Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written,

“‘This people honors me with their lips,
    but their heart is far from me;
in vain do they worship me,
    teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’

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13 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

But this is what you were implying or else you would have never mentioned it in the first place because it has no bearing on the topic discussed. 

 

We are talking about multiple scholars here, not public opinion. These men and women have studied and trained to do this very thing, translate. This is not some flippant group of people who have no Biblical training but want to write their own version. There are some who have done so, with little or no training what so ever other than a semester or two of Hebrew or Greek. Are you really trying to throw their education aside and lump them in with the uneducated opinions? That to me would be dishonest and insulting. 

 

But this is not what the scripture says now is it? It clearly states that one must honor the Son inasmuch as one honors the Father. From John chapter 5 verse 16 through to 28 is dealing with the equality and authority of Jesus. 

 

16 And this was why the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because he was doing these things on the Sabbath. 17 But Jesus answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I am working.”18 This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

Who said that Jesus was equal with God? was it Jesus? yes, but more so it was John recording what the Jewish leaders understood Jesus' words to mean. This was not by accident, Jesus didn't mince words, He knew exactly what they would think. Do you believe that Jesus didn't realize what His statement would mean? Of course He did. This would have been a perfect time for Jesus to correct them if He mislead them. He didn't, because He conveyed exactly what He intended to. 

19 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father[e] does, that the Son does likewise. 20 For the Father loves the Son and shows him all that he himself is doing. And greater works than these will he show him, so that you may marvel. 21 For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives lifeto whom he will. 22 The Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father.Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.

I see you have also quoted a portion of this and Donald has brought it up as well. Interesting to note in verse 21, Jesus gives life to whom He wishes. Does Jesus have to run it by His Father first? Nope. He has free will to give to whom He pleases. The Son can do what the Father can do, because He and the Father work in conjunction. This is demonstrative of Jesus' own will, which by the way is NOT contradictory to the will of the Father. 

24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.25 “Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. 27 And he has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man.

Jesus statement of hearing His word AND believing in the Father, one gains eternal life. Think about that for a moment, the Jews had the word of God in the OT, and now Jesus is saying these must hear (not just listening to the audible voice, but understanding) his words in conjunction with belief in the Father to gain eternal life. The Jews would never think of such, it would be blasphemy. Again, Jesus authority and equality is shown here because this is what God had told the Jews. 

 

Donald Diamond,

I would write the same response to you as I did here regarding these verses. The context is showing both the equality and authority of Jesus. You are right, the context gives us the reason why we honor the Son just the same as we honor the Father. 

 

1.  I'm not sure what the implication is other than what I stated below, but feel free to elaborate just for argument sake:

I did mention the majority of Bibles may have variant or spurious text.  That doesn't mean all Bibles contain the same variants or spurious text, even if they are in the minority.

 

2.  There is the public opinion among Christendom (including mainstream misinformed individuals who have failed to read their Bibles in its entirety or researched how Bibles are translated), that the KJB is the only correct translation or that the majority of translations are correct in their renditions of certain verses; that any translation that deviates from a common verse practice is heretical, even if those scholarly translators have just as much education and degrees, dismissing hundreds or thousands of hours of training, which is insulting to them and dishonest just for people to want to have their ears tickled.

 

 

12 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

But this is not what the scripture says now is it? It clearly states that one must honor the Son inasmuch as one honors the Father. From John chapter 5 verse 16 through to 28 is dealing with the equality and authority of Jesus. 

 

3.  The scripture also states why the son is to be honored as Judge or the one that renders judgement, which is being disregarded to support the idea of worship instead.

John 5:22-23

    Hello guest!
- “For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son, in order that all may honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him"

 

12 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

Who said that Jesus was equal with God? was it Jesus? yes, but more so it was John recording what the Jewish leaders understood Jesus' words to mean.

 

4.  Jesus never said he was equal to God, which you'd rather believe the lies of wayward Jews instead; ones Jesus called children of the Devil and a Synagogue of Satan.

Lies go on for miles with more twists and turns; and the more crooked they get, the more confusing. 

Since I can't get a clear sense out of the remainder of your words, I don't see a need to respond to the rest of whatever that was. (smile)

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"Jesus never said he was equal to God, "

Actually that is exactly what He said, the Jews knew it, John knew it, but you do not. It's ok if you cannot wrap you head around any opinion other than your own. 

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21 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

"Jesus never said he was equal to God, "

Actually that is exactly what He said, the Jews knew it, John knew it, but you do not. It's ok if you cannot wrap you head around any opinion other than your own. 

 

Jesus said he was son of God.  He even admitted he was son of God before the Sanhedrin.  If there was ever any time for him to make such a bold statement as you insist he did, that would have been the time, when he was on trial and before Pilate.

 

I've heard of reading in between the lines, but it does no good to stick your head in the sand and pretend you don't recognize the truth.

 

 

 

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10 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

 

 I do not consider this equal. This is where the word worship, as you pointed out, is the act of paying homage. I understand and agree with you on "worship" can mean to bow down, or fall face down. Now what do you do with scriptures that use the same word proskuneō after the description of already being bowed down?

Like for instance Matthew 4:9  "And he said to him, “All these I will give you, if you will fall down and worship me.” 

Is this just homage or is it actual worship? It would be actual worship because the act of bowing down has already been done, thus there would be more to the word proskuneō based on the context. Don't you agree? 

 

I have not managed to work out how to use selective quotes, so will deal with this part of your response first. 

I don't agree with you.   The Greek verb proskuneo primarily means to bow down by prostration (more like we see Muslims do in their daily prayers).   Falling down is not bowing down.   In the scripture you quote, the action suggested was that Jesus should fall down and prostrate himself.  It was an act of subjection, not religious devotion.  

D.

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10 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

You do honor your parents in different ways, but the respect you give them is equal. The devotion you give to them (in a normal functioning family) is equal, Their value to you is equal (50% dad's input and 50% mom's for your being here). If I understand your point correctly is that your relationship between them in different. I would agree. As far as honor being the definition of deity, you are correct, but who else in the Bible are we told to honor equally with the Father? There is no one else to which this honor is applied equally, except Jesus.

 

 

The equality is in the description of honor and how that honor is applied. It is a value you place on. Like before, your parents each have a value of 50% of your being brought into this world. This is not an absolute because some people do not place equal value to each of their parents, but for the sake of argument it is what I am using to convey the message. Here in the verse we are talking about equal value is to be placed upon the Son as is to the Father. How one chooses to act this honor out is the difference between what you are I are saying. If we both are called to the Royal palace, how would we show honor to the Queen? Would it be acceptable if we have different ways of doing this? likely not. 

 

The point of the passage is that we are to honour the one sent (the Son) as we honour the sender (the Father) - and as you say, the Father and the Son are not equal.   It is also that we honour the one receiving the auhority (the Son) as we would honour the giver of the authority (the Son).    The Son does not have that authority instrinsically - only the Father has.   In no way is this passage suggesting that Jesus is God.   It is about recognising that authority in judgement and raising the dead that the Father has bestowed on the Son and honouring him accordingly.   Jesus is making a stupendous claim here - but it is not a claim to be God Himself.

D

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1 hour ago, Shiwiii said:

"Jesus never said he was equal to God, "

Actually that is exactly what He said, the Jews knew it, John knew it, but you do not. It's ok if you cannot wrap you head around any opinion other than your own. 

Jesus' immediate response to the claim that he was making himself equal to God was to state that he could do nothing of his own accord.   That is as clear a refutation of the claim as you can get.   Jesus then continues with further statements about his dependence on the Father.

D

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2 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

"Jesus never said he was equal to God, "

Actually that is exactly what He said, the Jews knew it, John knew it, but you do not. It's ok if you cannot wrap you head around any opinion other than your own. 

But you just agreed with me when you said:

" I do not believe that the Father and the Son have equal authority. The Father is over the Son.  "

So your argument is that Jesus was claiming equality with God, even though you accept that Jesus was not equal in authority.  Am I the only one who finds your argument self-contradictory?

D

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On 4/19/2016 at 9:07 PM, Shiwiii said:

"The word "as" does appear in some translations, however the word, "worshiped" does not.  My question remains for Jay:  Do you feel the son should be worshiped as the Almighty Father?  The implication would be the same.  I will be here the rest of the evening for discussions."

 

  •  

Hi Shiwii,

When you say Jay here, do you mistakenly mean me?  There was confusion in the beginning.  I will go ahead and give you my thoughts.

In all cases of the NWT, the word "proskuneo" is never translated as worship when directed toward Christ.  Always it is used as worship toward God and demons.  One must ask why the partiality. I believe we need to ask who has divine authority over the Word of God, men or God?  Using such partiality introduces doctrines of men, and when this happens it would be wise to question our loyalty to such assumptions.

The balance that I believe shows worship due Christ is found in 1 Cor 15:27,28:

"For “God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him that God may be all in all."

Unwittingly, we can “worship” what receives our loyalty and obedience. 1 Cor 2:14 

1 Samuel gives a great illustration of this:

“Nevertheless the people refused to obey the voice of Samuel; and they said, “No, but we will have a king over us,

And Samuel heard all the words of the people, and he repeated them in the hearing of the Lord.

But the thing displeased Samuel when they said, “Give us a king to judge us.” So Samuel prayed to the Lord.

And the Lord said to Samuel, “Heed the voice of the people in all that they say to you; for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected Me, that I should not reign over them.      1 Sam 8:19,21,6,7

Expected obedience to the elder body and GB is spoken of quite frequently in the organization.  The word “obeisance” is used continually in the NWT when referring to Jesus.  By translating "proskuneo" when referring to Jesus, his deserved worship is downplayed since the immediate obedience is to the organization, which then transfers to mere obedience to Jesus.  The deserved worship Jesus should directly receive is blocked through what must be obeyed that is visible to the eye, just as what happened in the account of 1 Samuel. 

while we do not look at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen. For the things which are seen are temporary, but the things which are not seen are eternal.  2 Cor 4:18

We can see this as a rejection of acknowledged authority due Christ.  The early apostles ran into this eagerness by believers, to worship and follow what they saw, which was men, instead of Christ.

And the following day they entered Caesarea. Now Cornelius was waiting for them, and had called together his relatives and close friends.  As Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped him.  But Peter lifted him up, saying, “Stand up; I myself am also a man.”  Acts 10:24,26

“ For it has been declared to me concerning you, my brethren, by those of Chloe’s household, that there are contentions among you.  Now I say this that each of you says, “I am of Paul, or I am of Apollos,” or “I am of Cephas,” or “I am of Christ.”13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?  I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, lest anyone should say that I had baptized in my own name Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas. Besides, I do not know whether I baptized any other.  For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.”  1 Cor 1:13-17

This account should cause one to seriously consider the organization’s questions for baptism and our giving identity to it instead of Christ.  From the account in 1 Corinthians, it was a concern that men could be held in higher esteem than Jesus.  If someone is dedicated to, and a follower of Christ, they are a Christian;  whereas any other dedication becomes the desire of our eyes and what we slave to uphold and maintain.  Rom 1:24,25

The one who speaks on his own authority seeks his own glory; but the one who seeks the glory of him who sent him is true, and in him there is no falsehood.  John 7:18

For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”  Luke 14:11

 

 

 

 

 

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5 hours ago, Donald Diamond said:

I have not managed to work out how to use selective quotes, so will deal with this part of your response first. 

I don't agree with you.   The Greek verb proskuneo primarily means to bow down by prostration (more like we see Muslims do in their daily prayers).   Falling down is not bowing down.   In the scripture you quote, the action suggested was that Jesus should fall down and prostrate himself.  It was an act of subjection, not religious devotion.  

D.

What is the point of bowing down if one is already bowed down? That is my point. If one is already at the feet of another,  then "prostration" ones self is already done. So then the word proskuneo has to have more of a meaning in those instances. 

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5 hours ago, Donald Diamond said:

The point of the passage is that we are to honour the one sent (the Son) as we honour the sender (the Father) - and as you say, the Father and the Son are not equal.   It is also that we honour the one receiving the auhority (the Son) as we would honour the giver of the authority (the Son).    The Son does not have that authority instrinsically - only the Father has.   In no way is this passage suggesting that Jesus is God.   It is about recognising that authority in judgement and raising the dead that the Father has bestowed on the Son and honouring him accordingly.   Jesus is making a stupendous claim here - but it is not a claim to be God Himself.

D

I never said that the Son and the Father were not equal, just the opposite actually.  

Jesus is claiming to be God, or else why would the Jews want to kill him? It is clear in the text, based upon the statement Jesus made. Then He goes on to say we must honor Him just as we honor the Father.

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On 4/19/2016 at 11:09 PM, JaniceM said:

 

God elevates Jesus to a superior position so he would deserve whatever glory, power, honor, etc, that his Father bestows upon him.  The Father does not give his glory to anyone, but the glory Jesus receives, he gives to those that would serve with him.

 

(Revelation 5:10) and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”

 

The Heavenly Father also receives from the newly installed kings(elders with crowns), glory, honor and praise as he deserves having created all things.

 

Rev 4:9 And whenever the living creatures offer glory and honor and thanksgiving to the one seated upon the throne, the one that lives forever and ever, 10 the twenty-four elders fall down before the One seated upon the throne and worship the One that lives forever and ever, and they cast their crowns before the throne, saying: 11 “You are worthy, Jehovah, even our God, to receive the glory and the honor and the power, because you created all things, and because of your will they existed and were created.”

 

When God's kingdom began ruling in the heavens, he took over power and operation in the heavens and soon the earth by appointing Jesus as representative of his kingdom.  Satan has been given power and authority to rule for a time.  When God's kingdom was established in the heavens, he was hurled down to the earth.

 

(Revelation 11:17) saying: “We thank you, Jehovah God, the Almighty, the One who is and who was, because you have taken your great power and begun ruling as king.


(Matthew 6:10) Let your kingdom come. Let your will take place, as in heaven, also upon earth.


(Revelation 12:10) And I heard a loud voice in heaven say: “Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our God!

Hi JaniceM,

 

Yes, these scriptures you have listed show the honor that also will be given to the 144,000 who will serve with Christ – those who will receive their “crowns”. Likewise, Jesus receives worship due in our response to the glory he reflects on the Father. 

 

Then I looked, and I heard around the throne and the living creatures and the elders the voice of many angels, numbering myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice,

 

“Worthy is the Lamb who was slain,
to receive power and wealth and wisdom and might
and honor and glory and blessing!”

 

 And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying,

 

“To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb
be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever!”

 

 And the four living creatures said, “Amen!” and the elders fell down and worshiped.  Rev 5:11-14

 

I don’t mean to burden you with another long dissertation for you to struggle over, but I would like to show you how scripture can be turned from its true message into doctrine of men.

 

Rev 1:16,20 - In his right hand he held seven stars, and coming out of his mouth was a sharp, double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance. The mystery of the seven stars that you saw in my right hand and of the seven golden lampstands is this: the seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches.

Notice what it says in the w12 10/15 pp. 12-16:

 

“We can avoid that kind of attitude if we remember that Jesus has “in his right hand seven stars.” The “stars” mean anointed elders, but what is said about them can also refer to all the elders in the congregations.”

 

Firstly, the stars do not only mean anointed elders, but all anointed ones within the Body of Christ, his Temple priests.  1 Pet 2:5,9; 1 Cor 6:19,20

 

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

 

For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.  Gal 3:28,26

 

But now God has set the members, each one of them, in the body just as He pleased.  1 Cor 12:18       Eph 2:20-22; Ps 119:22; John 2:19,21; 1Cor 12:27; 3:17

 

Keeping in mind the first quote I gave you, now consider this one:

 

“Divinely constituted authority is also a factor within the Christian congregation.

    Hello guest!
 depicts Christ Jesus as holding the “stars” of the congregation in his right hand. (
    Hello guest!
    Hello guest!
) In a general sense, these “stars” represent the bodies of elders, or overseers, in the congregations” w08 3/15 pp. 3-7

 

We are getting closer to the merge.  Anointed ones are becoming more discrete, while an elder body is  turning into the stars in Christ’s right hand.

 

“To avoid that kind of spirit, we can remember that Jesus is pictured in the Bible as having “in his right hand seven stars.” The “stars” represent the anointed overseers and, by extension, all the overseers in the congregations. Jesus can direct the “stars” in his hand in any way he feels appropriate.” w12 10/15 pp. 12-16 - The Watchtower—2012

 

Here is the total transformation from God’s written word to man’s now set doctrine:

 

Jesus is spoken of in the vision of Revelation as having the seven stars of the seven congregations in his right hand. That is, all these bodies of elders have his favor and are under his full control, power, and direction. it-1 pp. 1028-1030

 

Apparently, those chosen to receive the outpouring of Holy Spirit through an anointing is second in value to men praying over other men for a blessing of Holy Spirit, based on scriptural guidelines.  I am sorry to be blunt about this, but it truly shows no fear toward God and his arrangement.  Each anointed has inscribed on the heart and mind, God’s laws. Heb 8:10,10:16; Rom 2:28,29; Rom 5:5;Deut 6:6,8; Rev 14:1 Each anointed one chosen by God is to preserve this law, and through the fruit of the lips serve the people - all of them - as one Body, and as the Temple of God.  Mal 2:7 Heb 13:15

 

 Instead of recognizing this, a group of men whom have not received this Holy Spirit directly from God have more authority than his own anointed priesthood. Christ’s Body represents the true religion.  2 Cor 5:20; 1 Cor 4:1; Mal 2:7; John 7:18,38; Rev 21:6,22:17; 14:3,5 The usurping of authority of the chosen ones is the fault of man made organization that defies God’s laws and therefore blasphemes his name.  2 Thess 2:1-4; 1 Cor 3:17

 

Because of man’s decision to go forward with their own plans over and over again, God has dealt with this before in ancient history and his Levitical priesthood.  He has regarded it as an abomination.

 

 Let no one enter the house of the Lord except the priests and ministering Levites. They may enter, for they are holy, but all the people shall keep the charge of the Lord.  2 Chron 23:6

 

In the house of the Lord, his Temple, only chosen priests were to serve.  The house of the Lord today is Christ’s Body, his Temple members, holy priesthood which are the anointed ones. Since the early temple was a shadow of the heavenly one, it takes the spiritual eye to see that the transgressing of the Temple today is through the elder arrangement esteemed to be the “stars” in Christ’s right hand. 

 

And you shall appoint Aaron and his sons, and they shall guard their priesthood. But if any outsider comes near, he shall be put to death.” Numbers 3:10

 

Be careful that you do not forsake the Levite as long as you live in your land.  Deut 12:19

 

And say to the rebellious house, to the house of Israel, Thus says the Lord God: O house of Israel, enough of all your abominations in admitting foreigners, uncircumcised in heart and flesh, to be in my sanctuary, profaning my temple, when you offer to me my food, the fat and the blood. You[

    Hello guest!
] have broken my covenant, in addition to all your abominations.  And you have not kept charge of my holy things, but you have set others to keep my charge for you in my sanctuary.  “Thus says the Lord God: No foreigner, uncircumcised in heart and flesh, of all the foreigners who are among the people of Israel, shall enter my sanctuary.

 

The elder body are the “others” who have taken the place of the anointed ones; by doing so, God’s sanctuary is profaned. The have “entered” it by replacing God’s choice of whom should serve the people. 

 

 Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.   2 Thess 2:3,4

 

For we are God's fellow workers. You are God's field, God's building.  1 Cor 3:9

 

 Do you not know that you are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in you.  If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him. For God's temple is holy, and you are that temple.

 

It is my opinion that not only is God’s name being profaned in this way, but through such actions, Christ and his Temple are rejected by the organization.

 

 

 

 

 

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I WAS TOTALLY UNAWARE OF THIS FACT UNTIL IT WAS BROUGHT TO OUR ATTENTION BY OUR CIRCUIT OVERSEER.  THE TITLES USED TO REFER TO JEHOVAH, TITLES LIKE GOD, LORD, ALMIGHTY, ETC. APPEAR SOME 2000 PLUS TIMES IN THE BIBLE. THE NAME JEHOVAH APPEARS 7216 TIMES. I THINK THAT SAYS SOMETHING ABOUT THE            IMPORTANCE OF USING JEHOVAH'S NAME.

MY NAME IS DWIGHT, HOWEVER IF YOU CALLED ME "HEY GUY" IT WOULD NOT MEAN THE SAME IN TERMS OF OUR RELATIONSHIP. WHY? BECAUSE YOU FAIL TO REALLY GET TO KNOW ME ON A PERSONAL BASIS.

TO DRAW CLOSE TO JEHOVAH, YOU NEED TO KNOW HIM PERSONALLY AND CALL HIM BY THE NAME HE GAVE        HIMSELF.

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1 hour ago, Shiwiii said:

What is the point of bowing down if one is already bowed down? That is my point. If one is already at the feet of another,  then "prostration" ones self is already done. So then the word proskuneo has to have more of a meaning in those instances. 

Falling down and prostrating oneself are not the same thing.   

D

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4 minutes ago, Donald Diamond said:

Falling down and prostrating oneself are not the same thing.

Quite agree. Prostrating oneself involves more

Prostrate oneself

1. Lit. to lay oneself out in respect or obedience in front of someone or something.

Fall down

 

to drop or topple.

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1 hour ago, Shiwiii said:

I never said that the Son and the Father were not equal, just the opposite actually.  

Jesus is claiming to be God, or else why would the Jews want to kill him? It is clear in the text, based upon the statement Jesus made. Then He goes on to say we must honor Him just as we honor the Father.

Well Shiwiii, I have quoted what you said.  It is here:

http://forum.theworldnewsmedia.org/topic/5838-do-people-really-need-to-know-and-use-the-word-jehovah-or-other-language-equivalents-to-truly-know-god/?do=findComment&comment=8247

This is what you said and what I was addressing:

I do not believe that the Father and the Son have equal authority. The Father is over the Son. "

If the Father is over the Son, they are not equal.

If you read the greater context (ie the gospel records) you will see that the Jews (which in the gospels generally means the leaders of the Jews) sought to kill Jesus, and they were prepared to bear false witness against him.   They were intimidated by him and were afraid he would cause an adverse reaction from the Romans.  Have you not read that?

The accusations made against Jesus were:

a) He broke the sabbath

b) He made himself equal with God.

If Jesus broke the sabbath, he would be a sinner - Jesus was born under the law.

So both these accusations were false.   The most likely explanation is that the leaders were attempting to turn the people against him.  They wanted Jesus dead.  That accords with the greater and nearer context.

What the text tells us is that we are to honour the Son as we honour the Father who is over the Son and grants him authority over the judgement and raising the dead..

We honour them for different reasons.   Therefore arguments about "equal honour" are meaningless.

D

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7 hours ago, Donald Diamond said:

But you just agreed with me when you said:

" I do not believe that the Father and the Son have equal authority. The Father is over the Son.  "

So your argument is that Jesus was claiming equality with God, even though you accept that Jesus was not equal in authority.  Am I the only one who finds your argument self-contradictory?

D

No, they are not equal in authority,  the Son is subject to the Father. Just like you are subject to your boss. But you are equally humans. Outside of your work, you are both treated equally.

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2 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

No, they are not equal in authority,  the Son is subject to the Father. Just like you are subject to your boss. But you are equally humans. Outside of your work, you are both treated equally.

Supreme authority is an attribute of God. You find that all over scripture.   You appear to have invented two god-persons, one of whom is supreme, and the other who is not, but is subject to the first.  This is confusion, and the passage does not support such a notion.    

The passage says nothing about whether the Son and the Father are equally God - it is about the inequality in authority between the Father and the Son which leads to the Father granting the Son authority in judgement and raising the dead - something he does not have of his own accord.   This refutes any notion that Jesus is claiming equality with God.

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1 hour ago, Donald Diamond said:

Supreme authority is an attribute of God. You find that all over scripture.   You appear to have invented two god-persons, one of whom is supreme, and the other who is not, but is subject to the first.  This is confusion, and the passage does not support such a notion.    

The passage says nothing about whether the Son and the Father are equally God - it is about the inequality in authority between the Father and the Son which leads to the Father granting the Son authority in judgement and raising the dead - something he does not have of his own accord.   This refutes any notion that Jesus is claiming equality with God.

I Don't agree. Why would Jesus say to honor Him the same as his Father? You are trying to invent different kinds of honor. 

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4 hours ago, Witness said:

Hi JaniceM,

It is my opinion that not only is God’s name being profaned in this way, but through such actions, Christ and his Temple are rejected by the organization.

 

Hi Witness, I didn't want to quote your whole post as these writings go on for miles already.  I will try to respond to your other mail later today if I don't get bogged down with others here.  I also have to work 2 jobs next few weeks, so please excuse me if I don't answer right away.  I do try to read all your responses to me and everyone.  Also, it appears you may be getting some of my quotes mixed up with Shiwii. 

 

I guess I'm not fully understanding your concern or I don't see it as a major problem.  I try not to sweat the small stuff.

 

I read all the verses you quoted how the Lord or Jesus has stars in his hand, and the society stating he directs the stars/elders, or something to that effect.  Then you mentioned something about the anointed.  It got a little confusing for me.

 

Witness said:

Firstly, the stars do not only mean anointed elders, but all anointed ones within the Body of Christ, his Temple priests.  1 Pet 2:5,9; 1 Cor 6:19,20

 

We're all directed by God's holy spirit in different ways.  If the society speculates on what certain verses mean toward the anointed or bodies of elders, I may agree with their speculations or not.  As long as they are not telling me I need to worship them, they can make whatever speculations about the way they feel God or Christ is directing us, the elders, the anointed, or the organization.

 

I do however have a problem with being told I can't speculate on some verses because someone decides their speculations have changed.  But it's still not a bone of contention to cause me to dismiss my faith as others have done because I do agree with the main tenets of faith if not all in their entirety or my views have changed somewhat on certain issues.

 

I've read older publications of the society that I have not totally agreed with or completely understood.  The society has also rejected some earlier views as well.  Often I look at commentaries online for opinions of certain verses.  Some are similar, but of the hundreds/thousands, with their different speculations, I can agree or not, as their speculations can change over time as well.  It's my choice what to accept or believe.  No one can reach inside my mind.  I don't have to be overly discontent and write letters to the editor to tell them they are going above their authority about what some verse means.

 

There is a problem with outside views which I've had problems with, family, co-workers, neighbors etc., which caused me to stumble quite a bit, and it took me a long time to get back on my feet where I needed to be.  Their complaints constantly buzzing in my ears and nit-picking everything in every publication, made me more concerned about what they said rather than my faith and relationship with Jehovah and focusing on the commandments and work Jesus instructed us to do.  So now I say to anyone, tell me what you feel is the right way to go.  They might suggest their faith or denomination, but usually, they can't give me an answer, other than list all the so-called cults to stay away from.  They also say nothing of the preaching work or kingdom which was the main focus of Jesus' message.

 

Lastly, I'm not sure what the solution would be to these statements below, whether the anointed ones should commence the operations of the society or not. 

 

Witness said:

In the house of the Lord, his Temple, only chosen priests were to serve.  The house of the Lord today is Christ’s Body, his Temple members, holy priesthood which are the anointed ones. Since the early temple was a shadow of the heavenly one, it takes the spiritual eye to see that the transgressing of the Temple today is through the elder arrangement esteemed to be the “stars” in Christ’s right hand.

Witness said:

The elder body are the “others” who have taken the place of the anointed ones; by doing so, God’s sanctuary is profaned. The have “entered” it by replacing God’s choice of whom should serve the people. 

Witness said:

It is my opinion that not only is God’s name being profaned in this way, but through such actions, Christ and his Temple are rejected by the organization.

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12 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

I Don't agree. Why would Jesus say to honor Him the same as his Father? You are trying to invent different kinds of honor. 

You may not agree (which is fine).   However, you appear to be arguing that the Son was claiming to be equal with God, while you also maintain that the Son was NOT equal to the Father in authority,    That is a self contradictory argument.  The fact that you can't see that is disappointing.  

I have specifically addressed the question you ask here.  We are told to honour the Son as we honour the Father because the Father has granted the Son authority over the judgement and raising the dead.

John 5:22, 23 The Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son, that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. (ASV)

I feel you have not addressed any of my arguments which directly deal with the points you made.  However, I am happy to leave it for the readers to make up their own minds.  

D

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7 hours ago, Donald Diamond said:

You may not agree (which is fine).   However, you appear to be arguing that the Son was claiming to be equal with God, while you also maintain that the Son was NOT equal to the Father in authority,    That is a self contradictory argument.  The fact that you can't see that is disappointing.  

I have specifically addressed the question you ask here.  We are told to honour the Son as we honour the Father because the Father has granted the Son authority over the judgement and raising the dead.

John 5:22, 23 The Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son, that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. (ASV)

I feel you have not addressed any of my arguments which directly deal with the points you made.  However, I am happy to leave it for the readers to make up their own minds.  

D

It is actually not a contradiction. You and I are equal as being human. We are not equal when it comes to authority. If you were a Judge and I was a lawyer, in your court you would have the authority. In the street, we are equal. 

What we are disagreeing on, is not why, but rather the degree of honor. You and others here have inserted different forms of honor to be applied to the Son and to the Father. I am saying that there is no difference, one must honor both equally.

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17 hours ago, JaniceM said:

 

Hi Witness, I didn't want to quote your whole post as these writings go on for miles already. 

 

You mean it is longer than “two miles”? J  Matt 5:41

Your words, “There is a problem with outside views which I've had problems with, family, co-workers, neighbors etc., which caused me to stumble quite a bit, and it took me a long time to get back on my feet where I needed to be. “

Where is it that you feel you need to be in order to maintain your faith?  I think the question for all of us is where do we seat our faith. 

Is it here?

"Come to Jehovah's organization for salvation" WT ‘81/11/15 p.212

Or is it here?

This Jesus is the stone that was rejected by you, the builders, which has become the cornerstone.  And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.  Acts 4:11-12

Do you see what has happened?  God has given us salvation simply through Christ only, and not through any other route, name, identity, organization.  If we don’t accept this, we too, have rejected the cornerstone just as those early Jews did.  1 Cor 1:23

“For it stands in Scripture: “Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a cornerstone chosen and precious,
and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.”  So the honor is for you who believe, but for those who do not believe, “The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone,” and “A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense.” They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do.”  1 Pet 2:6-8

Your words “They also say nothing of the preaching work or kingdom which was the main focus of Jesus' message.”

There are a few on here that preach Jesus’ message, but are not part of the organization.  Would you consider them part of the “preaching work”?  Preaching is always in truth, - Jesus - and in imitation of the early apostles who focused their preaching on Jesus' glory as well as the Father'; and nothing else, be it doctrine of men that changes, or an organization viewed as pertinent to our identity.

 It is important to recognize the “small stuff” that can threaten one’s faith, by insistence on abiding by the “small stuff”.  Jesus made a point in bringing out the Pharisees’ deliberate attention to detail and how dangerous it can be.  Perhaps you don’t sweat the small stuff, but it can corrode your brother or sister’s faith, even yours; if we love one another we are concerned for the faith of each one of us.

“Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples,  “The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat,  so do and observe whatever they tell you, but not the works they do. For they preach, but do not practice.  They tie up heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on people's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to move them with their finger.  They do all their deeds to be seen by others. For they make their phylacteries broad and their fringes long,  and they love the place of honor at feasts and the best seats in the synagogues  and greetings in the marketplaces and being called rabbi by others.”  Matt 23:1-7, 8-36

Your words “Lastly, I'm not sure what the solution would be to these statements below, whether the anointed ones should commence the operations of the society or not.”

We do all receive Holy Spirit if God allows it to happen through our own supplications in harmony with his will.  With the anointed ones, the light of Christ is to shine from within them.  This light is given to these children of God in order to bring all mankind who are willing, also to the light – they, in turn, become children of God in God’s Kingdom. 

 “You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden. Nor do people light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a stand, and it gives light to all in the house.  In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.  Matt 5:14,15

In order for the Body of Christ to shine as illuminators, it has to be recognized, which is impossible through suppression in the organization.  Phil 2:15 (stars in Christ's right hand - Dan 12:3) 

You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruitand that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.  John 15:16

Through the ignorance of this light given anointed who are required to let it shine, it is viewed by the organization with the same misunderstanding as Jesus’ light,

“The Light shines in the darkness, and darkness did not comprehend it   John 1:5

Their light is poured into the heart by Holy Spirit in a unique way; when one works in harmony with God in recognizing this light, they receive comprehension of love and Christ’s laws, which are then manifested within these anointed ones - and they are to shine as stars. 1 Cor 14:41; Matt 5:16   By abolishing their own servitude as priests and allowing others to serve, the organization has set up an abomination, according to God.

 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place(whoever reads, let him understand)  Matt 24:15

The holy place is God’s Temple arrangement – the Body of Christ.  This is a spiritual fulfillment within and among God’s own people.  It has always been seen that abominations are found within his own people.  It has also always occurred that holy ones can choose to resist this blessing of Holy Spirit through their own arrogance and out of their lack of fear toward God.   Deut 13:12-15; Luke 23:40; Rom 3:10-18; 2 Cor 11:13-15; 1 Tim 4:16

“then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.”  Matt 24:16  “Judea” is the location of Israel, spiritual “Israel” today are the chosen ones. Rom 11:26 If we recognize this oppression, we are to flee, spiritually and physically to the heavenly mountain, Zion – to God and Christ.  

"How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?"  Heb 10:29 (Dan 8:10,13; Matt 5:13)

I’ll stop here, as I’ve probably past the two mile mark.  This is food for serious thought and do not feel obligated to respond, as it sounds like you are quite busy, but I have and will continue to appreciate reading your comments. 

 For it is time for judgment to begin with God’s household; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God?  1 Pet 4:17

 

 

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6 hours ago, Witness said:

 

You mean it is longer than “two miles”? J  Matt 5:41

 

Your words, “There is a problem with outside views which I've had problems with, family, co-workers, neighbors etc., which caused me to stumble quite a bit, and it took me a long time to get back on my feet where I needed to be. “

1).

Where is it that you feel you need to be in order to maintain your faith?  I think the question for all of us is where do we seat our faith. 

2).

Is it here?

 

"Come to Jehovah's organization for salvation" WT ‘81/11/15 p.212

 

Or is it here?

 

This Jesus is the stone that was rejected by you, the builders, which has become the cornerstone.  And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.  Acts 4:11-12

 

Do you see what has happened?  God has given us salvation simply through Christ only, and not through any other route, name, identity, organization.  If we don’t accept this, we too, have rejected the cornerstone just as those early Jews did.  1 Cor 1:23

3).

“For it stands in Scripture: “Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a cornerstone chosen and precious,
and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.”  So the honor is for you who believe, but for those who do not believe, “The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone,” and “A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense.” They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do.”  1 Pet 2:6-8

 

Your words “They also say nothing of the preaching work or kingdom which was the main focus of Jesus' message.”

4).

There are a few on here that preach Jesus’ message, but are not part of the organization.  Would you consider them part of the “preaching work”?  Preaching is always in truth, - Jesus - and in imitation of the early apostles who focused their preaching on Jesus' glory as well as the Father'; and nothing else, be it doctrine of men that changes, or an organization viewed as pertinent to our identity.

5).

 It is important to recognize the “small stuff” that can threaten one’s faith, by insistence on abiding by the “small stuff”.  Jesus made a point in bringing out the Pharisees’ deliberate attention to detail and how dangerous it can be.  Perhaps you don’t sweat the small stuff, but it can corrode your brother or sister’s faith, even yours; if we love one another we are concerned for the faith of each one of us.

 

“Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples,  “The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat,  so do and observe whatever they tell you, but not the works they do. For they preach, but do not practice.  They tie up heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on people's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to move them with their finger.  They do all their deeds to be seen by others. For they make their phylacteries broad and their fringes long,  and they love the place of honor at feasts and the best seats in the synagogues  and greetings in the marketplaces and being called rabbi by others.”  Matt 23:1-7, 8-36

6).

Your words “Lastly, I'm not sure what the solution would be to these statements below, whether the anointed ones should commence the operations of the society or not.”

 

We do all receive Holy Spirit if God allows it to happen through our own supplications in harmony with his will.  With the anointed ones, the light of Christ is to shine from within them.  This light is given to these children of God in order to bring all mankind who are willing, also to the light – they, in turn, become children of God in God’s Kingdom. 

 

 “You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden. Nor do people light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a stand, and it gives light to all in the house.  In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.  Matt 5:14,15

 

In order for the Body of Christ to shine as illuminators, it has to be recognized, which is impossible through suppression in the organization.  Phil 2:15 (stars in Christ's right hand - Dan 12:3) 

 

You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruitand that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.  John 15:16

 

Through the ignorance of this light given anointed who are required to let it shine, it is viewed by the organization with the same misunderstanding as Jesus’ light,

 

“The Light shines in the darkness, and darkness did not comprehend it   John 1:5

 

Their light is poured into the heart by Holy Spirit in a unique way; when one works in harmony with God in recognizing this light, they receive comprehension of love and Christ’s laws, which are then manifested within these anointed ones - and they are to shine as stars. 1 Cor 14:41; Matt 5:16   By abolishing their own servitude as priests and allowing others to serve, the organization has set up an abomination, according to God.

 

 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place(whoever reads, let him understand)  Matt 24:15

 

The holy place is God’s Temple arrangement – the Body of Christ.  This is a spiritual fulfillment within and among God’s own people.  It has always been seen that abominations are found within his own people.  It has also always occurred that holy ones can choose to resist this blessing of Holy Spirit through their own arrogance and out of their lack of fear toward God.   Deut 13:12-15; Luke 23:40; Rom 3:10-18; 2 Cor 11:13-15; 1 Tim 4:16

 

“then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.”  Matt 24:16  “Judea” is the location of Israel, spiritual “Israel” today are the chosen ones. Rom 11:26 If we recognize this oppression, we are to flee, spiritually and physically to the heavenly mountain, Zion – to God and Christ.  

 

"How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?"  Heb 10:29 (Dan 8:10,13; Matt 5:13)

 

I’ll stop here, as I’ve probably past the two mile mark.  This is food for serious thought and do not feel obligated to respond, as it sounds like you are quite busy, but I have and will continue to appreciate reading your comments. 

 

 For it is time for judgment to begin with God’s household; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God?  1 Pet 4:17

 

Just remember if you take 2 miles, I'll take 4.  :D

 

1).   My faith needed to be strong and I hadn't built up a strong core or backbone.  Although determined to dedicate myself to what I knew was the truth, it was easy to yield to my own weaknesses and the relentless attacks for several years after getting baptized; now, although imperfect, unshakeable.

 

2).   Context is everything and my official response will come later.  Again, it's not always a matter of here or there, this or that.  Upon speaking for many years with many aggressive atheists, Muslims, etc., we've had to deal with the same sort of 'your Bible is corrupt 101/1001 contradictions in the Bible, flip flop, wishy washy, make believe fairy tale God/god holy book written by men.'  'Your Paul is a liar (no works)/James (you must have works); God said count the men/Satan said count the fighting men; Jesus (no one has seen God)/men saw God and had lunch with him.)' (smile) 

So you see the problem here . . . which left us scrambling for we were not about to let anyone get the best of our holy book and trample those precious peals under our feet.  With God's help, pure tenacity and using Watchtower and other online websites, and resources, letting scripture explain scripture, we were able to help also other Christians shut down their arguments before the dust settled.  With the Christians, either Jesus is Michael or the 'Watchtower made it up.'  'If they lied about this, what else are they lying about?'  I'm glad I didn't feed into the propaganda, and just lay down and die.  I was able to use their own Trinitarian commentaries against them.

 

3).   We do believe in Jesus and have always said so.

 

4).   I recall Jesus saying to the effect, “Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. 22 Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ 23 And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew YOU! Get away from me, YOU workers of lawlessness. (Matt 7:21-34)

 

Many do preach or prophesy in Jesus' name which is good, but they should also be following in the footsteps of Christ, obeying his commandments.  To not do so would be an act of disobedience and lawlessness. 

 

Matt 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you. And, look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.” (NWT)

 

Jesus said unto them, "I must announce the gospel of the kingdom of God to other cities also because for this am I sent." ““And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.”” (Luke 4:43 Jubilee Bible) (Matt 24:14 KJV)

 

5). Jesus was concerned with paying attention to even  the smallest letter of the law.  This in itself was not dangerous, but beneficial.  Paying attention to the trivial traditions of the Pharisees made their worship in vain.   

 

 Witness said:

 It is important to recognize the “small stuff” that can threaten one’s faith, by insistence on abiding by the “small stuff”.  Jesus made a point in bringing out the Pharisees’ deliberate attention to detail and how dangerous it can be.  Perhaps you don’t sweat the small stuff, but it can corrode your brother or sister’s faith, even yours; if we love one another we are concerned for the faith of each one of us.

*I can agree, paying attention to every nonessential detail or sayings of men can be dangerous and quite burdensome.  At this point, I don't see where we are over burdened in following the commandments of Jesus, although I have had to deal with some overbearing brothers and sisters that insist the Watchtower has never been wrong or are quick to label one an brother for thinking a little outside the box.  The Watchtower itself has to my knowledge never said they were infallible or always correct.


 

6)  I'm not sure how much more efficiently things could be done, as I see we are all working together in the body of Christ as publishers of the good news.  God is not powerless to accomplish his will toward his anointed ones or any of us.  God is not powerless to remove those nor favorable disposed.  

 

Not sweating the small stuff means not focusing on everything wrong.  God does not focus on everything we do or say wrong, but our desire to worship him and do the right things according to his will.  Many of those anointed or appointed by Christ, said, thought and did the wrong things, so this is agreeable, we can't put anyone upon a pedestal.

 

“Stop judging that YOU may not be judged; 2 for with what judgment YOU are judging, YOU will be judged; and with the measure that YOU are measuring out, they will measure out to YOU. 3 Why, then, do you look at the straw in your brother’s eye, but do not consider the rafter in your own eye? 4 Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Allow me to extract the straw from your eye’; when, look! a rafter is in your own eye? 5 Hypocrite! First extract the rafter from your own eye, and then you will see clearly how to extract the straw from your brother’s eye." (Matt 7:1-5)

 

I'll wait for your response before I proceed.

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On 4/21/2016 at 3:20 PM, JaniceM said:

Just remember if you take 2 miles, I'll take 4.  :D

 

I inserted the above from your last post, which I could'n't quote properly for some reason.  I would beg to go 6, but I think I’ve already been there J

It is pretty clear to me that you feel the organization has God’s blessing because of the accomplishment of what you call, the “preaching work”.  Although, remembering the quotes I had given earlier about serving God through such a thing, we find it is not needed.

As far as preaching, we also find many who do it and I am not saying they are correct. We could go on about the Mormons, Seventh Day Adventists, Pentecostals, Gideon’s International, Catholic Church….all preaching about a Kingdom to come, as well as Jesus, and adding up to billions of members.

You said, “Although determined to dedicate myself to what I knew was the truth” 

 What is the truth to you?  Is it Christ, 1914, the organization…?

You said, ”With the Christians, either Jesus is Michael or the 'Watchtower made it up.'  'If they lied about this, what else are they lying about?”

Considering the opposite meanings that I have presented you from the Watchtower, I should ask you, what else are they lying about?

 You said, “Many do preach or prophesy in Jesus' name which is good, but they should also be following in the footsteps of Christ, obeying his commandments.  To not do so would be an act of disobedience and lawlessness.”

There you go; you hit the nail on the head.  This is what makes the organization different from any other.  Inside are anointed ones, but have you ever wondered why this is so?  It has everything to do with Matt 7:21-34 that you quoted.  As established from the quotes I have listed from the Watchtower itself, giving one’s obedience to an organization is idolatry.  It has been established as fact by the organization itself.  Yet, they continue to mislead, causing one to question just what is right but following the majority without question.  The anointed ones must follow in Christ’s footsteps.  What does this entail? 

They must desire to be found “clean” by God.

 Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. 2 Cor 7:1

Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless;  2 Pet 3:14

If there is any wayward teaching accepted, “double-talk”, are they without spot and blameless?  Can they practice idolatry and be viewed as blameless?  Ps 12:2

If God’s arrangement of teaching through anointed ones is ignored, are they blameless? The priesthood, each and every anointed one, has to be cleansed in order to part of the Bride.  Satan is their biggest enemy who seeks to destroy Christ’s seed.  His deceptions have always been based on deceit and lies, confusion and false sense of security which the organization teaches it provides. 

Chosen stars can fall through temptation and a gift of power.  Prov 16:5; Rom 11:18; 1 Cor 4:8; Rev 13:5; 13:15

“Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience.”  Heb 4:11

“They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of usthey would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.”  1 John 2:19

“looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up cause trouble, and by this many become defiled”  Heb 12:15

Wormwood is a “root of bitterness” - O you who turn justice to wormwood and cast down righteousness to the earth!  Amos 5:7

Then the third angel sounded: And a great star fell from heaven, burning like a torch, and it fell on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water.  The name of the star is Wormwood. A third of the waters became wormwood, and many men died from the water, because it was made bitter. The name of the star is Wormwood. A third of the waters became wormwood, and many men died from the water, because it was made bitter.  Rev 8:11

Water represents teachings in the bible, and while this particular water started as truth, it turned bitter and poisonous through lies by a fallen chosen “star”. 

God allows a deception to fall on his people as a time of refinement and discipline.  Just as he allowed Satan to test Job, all who desire to truly follow in Christ’s footsteps are tested – by Satan, as Christ was tested by Satan on the mountain.  Our “captivity” to impure teachings is allowed by the Father in the end times.  If you were to approach the elders and say, “I believe the only way to serve God is through Christ, for he said ‘I am the way and the truth and the life’ and I believe this is the accurate way to God (Prov 14:12) and it’s the only way I’m going to get through the Great Tribulation (

    Hello guest!
    Hello guest!
,
    Hello guest!
)….you are then following in Christ’s footsteps, and confessing Jesus before men.  Matt 10:32

What follows is likely a disfellowshipping, a mark of “spiritual death”, as you turn your back on the organization and is a continuance on the continued path to Christ, bearing the same disgrace he bore.   Rev 13:15

“They will put you out of the synagogues. Indeed, the hour is coming when whoever kills you will think he is offering service to God.”  John 16:2

“Therefore let us go to him outside the camp and bear the reproach he endured.”  Heb 13:13

Who was it who persecuted Jesus, but his own people?  Who persecutes and passes judgment on their own people but the organization? Which leads me back to your last scripture that Jesus aptly applied to the Pharisees and which can be applied to those in authority in the organization:

“Stop judging that YOU may not be judged; for with what judgment YOU are judging, YOU will be judged; and with the measure that YOU are measuring out, they will measure out to YOU.  Why, then, do you look at the straw in your brother’s eye, but do not consider the rafter in your own eye?  Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Allow me to extract the straw from your eye’; when, look! a rafter is in your own eye? 5 Hypocrite! First extract the rafter from your own eye, and then you will see clearly how to extract the straw from your brother’s eye." (Matt 7:1-5)

The only way the “wise virgins” make it is because they listen to Christ!  They responded to his call in repentance.

“I counsel you to buy from me gold refined by fire, so that you may be rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself and the shame of your nakedness may not be seen, and salve to anoint your eyes, so that you may see.”  Rev 3:18

Those not producing fruit from a refined heart (

    Hello guest!
,
    Hello guest!
), are lopped off the vine of Christ and cannot partake of the marriage feast.

This is an ongoing subject, and there is more in your post that I would like to comment on, but I think I’ve hit the 2 mile mark again.

I’ll be on the road for a few days.  Thank you for replying even though you are quite busy. 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Witness said:

I inserted the above from your last post, which I could'n't quote properly for some reason.  I would beg to go 6, but I think I’ve already been there J

 

It is pretty clear to me that you feel the organization has God’s blessing because of the accomplishment of what you call, the “preaching work”.  Although, remembering the quotes I had given earlier about serving God through such a thing, we find it is not needed.

 

As far as preaching, we also find many who do it and I am not saying they are correct. We could go on about the Mormons, Seventh Day Adventists, Pentecostals, Gideon’s International, Catholic Church….all preaching about a Kingdom to come, as well as Jesus, and adding up to billions of members.

 

You said, “Although determined to dedicate myself to what I knew was the truth” 

1).

 What is the truth to you?  Is it Christ, 1914, the organization…?

 

You said, ”With the Christians, either Jesus is Michael or the 'Watchtower made it up.'  'If they lied about this, what else are they lying about?”

 

Considering the opposite meanings that I have presented you from the Watchtower, I should ask you, what else are they lying about?

 

 You said, “Many do preach or prophesy in Jesus' name which is good, but they should also be following in the footsteps of Christ, obeying his commandments.  To not do so would be an act of disobedience and lawlessness.”

2).

There you go; you hit the nail on the head.  This is what makes the organization different from any other.  Inside are anointed ones, but have you ever wondered why this is so?  It has everything to do with Matt 7:21-34 that you quoted.  As established from the quotes I have listed from the Watchtower itself, giving one’s obedience to an organization is idolatry.  It has been established as fact by the organization itself.  Yet, they continue to mislead, causing one to question just what is right but following the majority without question.  The anointed ones must follow in Christ’s footsteps.  What does this entail? 

 

They must desire to be found “clean” by God.

 

 Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. 2 Cor 7:1

 

Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless;  2 Pet 3:14

 

If there is any wayward teaching accepted, “double-talk”, are they without spot and blameless?  Can they practice idolatry and be viewed as blameless?  Ps 12:2

 

If God’s arrangement of teaching through anointed ones is ignored, are they blameless? The priesthood, each and every anointed one, has to be cleansed in order to part of the Bride.  Satan is their biggest enemy who seeks to destroy Christ’s seed.  His deceptions have always been based on deceit and lies, confusion and false sense of security which the organization teaches it provides. 

Chosen stars can fall through temptation and a gift of power.  Prov 16:5; Rom 11:18; 1 Cor 4:8; Rev 13:5; 13:15

 

“Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience.”  Heb 4:11

 

“They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of usthey would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.”  1 John 2:19

 

“looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up cause trouble, and by this many become defiled”  Heb 12:15

 

Wormwood is a “root of bitterness” - O you who turn justice to wormwood and cast down righteousness to the earth!  Amos 5:7

 

Then the third angel sounded: And a great star fell from heaven, burning like a torch, and it fell on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water.  The name of the star is Wormwood. A third of the waters became wormwood, and many men died from the water, because it was made bitter. The name of the star is Wormwood. A third of the waters became wormwood, and many men died from the water, because it was made bitter.  Rev 8:11

 

Water represents teachings in the bible, and while this particular water started as truth, it turned bitter and poisonous through lies by a fallen chosen “star”. 

3).

God allows a deception to fall on his people as a time of refinement and discipline.  Just as he allowed Satan to test Job, all who desire to truly follow in Christ’s footsteps are tested – by Satan, as Christ was tested by Satan on the mountain.  Our “captivity” to impure teachings is allowed by the Father in the end times.  If you were to approach the elders and say, “I believe the only way to serve God is through Christ, for he said ‘I am the way and the truth and the life’ and I believe this is the accurate way to God (Prov 14:12) and it’s the only way I’m going to get through the Great Tribulation (

    Hello guest!
    Hello guest!
,
    Hello guest!
)….you are then following in Christ’s footsteps, and confessing Jesus before men.  Matt 10:32

 

What follows is likely a disfellowshipping, a mark of “spiritual death”, as you turn your back on the organization and is a continuance on the continued path to Christ, bearing the same disgrace he bore.   Rev 13:15

 

“They will put you out of the synagogues. Indeed, the hour is coming when whoever kills you will think he is offering service to God.”  John 16:2

 

“Therefore let us go to him outside the camp and bear the reproach he endured.”  Heb 13:13

 

Who was it who persecuted Jesus, but his own people?  Who persecutes and passes judgment on their own people but the organization? Which leads me back to your last scripture that Jesus aptly applied to the Pharisees and which can be applied to those in authority in the organization:

“Stop judging that YOU may not be judged; for with what judgment YOU are judging, YOU will be judged; and with the measure that YOU are measuring out, they will measure out to YOU.  Why, then, do you look at the straw in your brother’s eye, but do not consider the rafter in your own eye?  Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Allow me to extract the straw from your eye’; when, look! a rafter is in your own eye? 5 Hypocrite! First extract the rafter from your own eye, and then you will see clearly how to extract the straw from your brother’s eye." (Matt 7:1-5)

 

The only way the “wise virgins” make it is because they listen to Christ!  They responded to his call in repentance.

 

“I counsel you to buy from me gold refined by fire, so that you may be rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself and the shame of your nakedness may not be seen, and salve to anoint your eyes, so that you may see.”  Rev 3:18

 

Those not producing fruit from a refined heart (

    Hello guest!
,
    Hello guest!
), are lopped off the vine of Christ and cannot partake of the marriage feast.

 

This is an ongoing subject, and there is more in your post that I would like to comment on, but I think I’ve hit the 2 mile mark again.

 

I’ll be on the road for a few days.  Thank you for replying even though you are quite busy. 

 

I'll be wrapping things up by the end of the week, so I'll get the other mail out to you tomorrow perhaps.

1.  My experiences growing up among the churches was being surrounded by teachings of my soul floating away to heaven or burning in hell.  I never heard anything about the kingdom of God until I started studying with JWs.  I have had experience with Mormons visiting our home maybe once in my lifetime, but it wasn't to preach about God's kingdom.  I think that the gospel of the kingdom was one of the essential gospel messages of Christ and a duty for all to declare.  So when I speak of truth, it's about the kingdom of Christ and the benefits it would bring to mankind.  I prayed to God to show me the truth and his people and he did, and for the most part my questions were answered.  There is no religion or denomination totally correct about everything or they would be perfect, and there is no denomination I agree with on everything.  They are all imperfect bodies of people.  However, when I left the churches, just as many others, I was determined to never set foot in one again.  Turning away from a spiritual paradise would be like a dog going back to its vomit.

 

2.  From my view, I have seen a lot of neglect, hurt feelings and some major problems needing major corrections, however, I see no urgency or crisis as for as those anointed are concerned.  They are in God's hands to put in whatever rightful position he desires, not mine. 

 

3.  I don't see where a person can be disfellowshipped for quoting the Bible.

Witness said:

If you were to approach the elders and say, “I believe the only way to serve God is through Christ, for he said ‘I am the way and the truth and the life’ and I believe this is the accurate way to God

 

We realize there is some judging of serious matters within the congregation, but we don't want to be judging or finding fault continuously with the imperfections of each other or picking at straws.

 

I understand you are on the road so I'll cease here.  If there are any further issues feel free to reply when you can.  I still have a reply for your 04/19 posting, which I will post within the next day or two.

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On 4/22/2016 at 4:36 PM, Shiwiii said:

It is actually not a contradiction. You and I are equal as being human. We are not equal when it comes to authority. If you were a Judge and I was a lawyer, in your court you would have the authority. In the street, we are equal. 

What we are disagreeing on, is not why, but rather the degree of honor. You and others here have inserted different forms of honor to be applied to the Son and to the Father. I am saying that there is no difference, one must honor both equally.

Sorry for delay in replying.   The text simple says that in relation to authority over judgement and raising the dead, we should honour the delegatee as we would the delegator.   That is not a difficult concept.  

The problem you need to deal with is that supreme authority is an essential attribute of God.  Try reading from chapter 40 of Isaiah and you will see that repeated chapter after chapter.  So it is simply not possible for the Father and Son to be equally God while not being equal in authority.   IMHO you are putting the false accusation of the Jewish leaders ahead of the plain statements of Jesus.

As I have pointed out before, your argument leads to two god persons, one of whom is dependent for his authority on the other.  I cannot see that in scripture.

D

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3 hours ago, Donald Diamond said:

The text simple says that in relation to authority over judgement and raising the dead, we should honour the delegatee as we would the delegator

yes, but that is not the question. The question is not about why it is about how. How do you honor one more than the other? 

 

3 hours ago, Donald Diamond said:

So it is simply not possible for the Father and Son to be equally God while not being equal in authority.

of course it is, Read Philippians 2, what does Jesus empty Himself of? Verse 6 says He was in the form of God. Jesus, when He came to the Earth made Himself humble and He emptied Himself of the form of God. So then, who would He be subject to then? Men? nope, The Father. 

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43 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

yes, but that is not the question. The question is not about why it is about how. How do you honor one more than the other? 

 

of course it is, Read Philippians 2, what does Jesus empty Himself of? Verse 6 says He was in the form of God. Jesus, when He came to the Earth made Himself humble and He emptied Himself of the form of God. So then, who would He be subject to then? Men? nope, The Father. 

I believe I have answered this several times now.    We honour the Father for having supreme authority - we honour the Son for having been delegated authority in relation to judgement and raising the dead from his Father.  We honour the Son in executing judgement and raising the dead as if it was the Father doing it.  The reason for honouring them is different - so it is like comparing apples and oranges.  Jesus says the Father is the greater in this respect as he can do nothing of his own accord - but the passage is not concerned with "quantities" of honour,    It is an imposition on the text.

Philippians 2 says nothing about God giving up His supreme authority.    And you did not address Isaiah 40 onwards.

I feel I have answered your questions, and we have wandered far from the original issue (I take my share of the blame), so am happy to leave it there unless you have something new and relevant to ask.   I don't feel it is fair to make this thread a free for all on every trinitarian proof text.

D.

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The passage is exactly that, the equality of honor. 

 

I understand and quite agree with you on the length of this thread. We are going around in circles saying the same thing we just did. None of us is getting through to the other in a way that each of us understands our respective points. I do appreciate the conversation though. 

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5 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

The passage is exactly that, the equality of honor. 

 

I understand and quite agree with you on the length of this thread. We are going around in circles saying the same thing we just did. None of us is getting through to the other in a way that each of us understands our respective points. I do appreciate the conversation though. 

Thanks for the opportunity to discuss this  and for expressing yourself without making it personal.   

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  3 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

"yes, but that is not the question. The question is not about why it is about how. How do you honor one more than the other?"

Based on John 5:23:

"all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him."

So, this, (depending on motive) is actually a very good question.

As the meaning of the verb "to honor" is similar to that of the Greek word used (form of timao), the definition of the English word is relevant:  

"honor" verb: to regard with great respect.

So actually the honoring is not greater or less. You either honor someone or you do not. It is what it is: honor.

However, what the honor is due for is related to the role of the subject. For example, the scriptures exhort children to honor their father and mother at Eph. 6:4. Whilst the honor is the same i.e. not less for the mother over the father, it is expressed within the parameters of the role assigned to each parent. e.g. to assign the mother the role as head of the family, and respect her wishes and/or direction over and above (possibly in contradiction to) those of the father, would be DIS-honoring the mother (and the father) within the theocratic structure (1Cor.11:3), regardless of the motive of the one showing such "honor".

Similarly, showing honor to the Father would mean, respecting Him alone as the Sovereign Lord of the Universe (Ps.83:18); the Creator of all things (Is. 42:5), including His Son Jesus Christ (Col.1:15); the provider and acceptor of the Ransom Sacrifice of His Son's perfect human life (Rom.5:8); the originator of the Kingdom administration (Eph.1:10) which includes the extending of the benefits of that Ransom Sacrifice to all obedient former children of the rebellious Adam and Eve (Acts 25:15); and many other things too numerous to mention here.

Showing honor to the Son would include (among many other things not mentioned), acknowledging his unique role in: providing his perfect human life as the Ransom Sacrifice (2Tim.2:5-6); in acknowledging that his reward for faithfully carrying out all that was required of him includes his elevated status now in heaven as the King and High Priest (Ph.2:9; 1Tim.1:15; Heb.6:20; Matt.28:18); and recognising that he would never, never place himself on equal footing with his Glorious Heavenly Father, Jehovah (1Cor 11:3; Ph.1:6).

In fact, to suggest that Jesus would consider himself equal to God would do him the greatest DIS-honor (Ph.1:6; comp. Jo.8:49).

As I said, this was a very good question.

 

 

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Shiwiii said:

"How do you honor one more than the other?"

Just an additional thought. The context of this assigning of honor to the Son as to the Father in John 5:23 is of course in Jesus assigned role as judge. It is particularly when judging that Jesus is to be shown honor commensurate with that shown to the Father, as Jehovah has given complete authority to Jesus in this aspect. John 5:22 :"For the Father judges no one at all, but he has entrusted all the judging to the Son." . Jesus' judgement is as if Jehovah was judging and is as binding.

As an example, the account of Joseph in Egypt indicates how a ruler (Pharaoh) could assign such honor to a deserving subject without relinquishing his own superior position. Compare Gen.41:44 with Gen.45:16-20.

Although the discussion seems to have diverged somewhat from the original question, I think the answer to it is actually a resounding Yes! because the Scripture indicates clearly that God has a personal name regardless of how it is pronounced.

We must understand and appreciate the unique personal differences between Jehovah and His only-begotten Son, identified as Jesus (English pronunciation), which includes their personal names,

Only then can we possibly assign them their due, relative honor, and ensure that we follow the instruction Jesus gave as recorded at Luke 4:8:

“It is written, ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’ "
 

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14 hours ago, Eoin Joyce said:

However, what the honor is due for is related to the role of the subject. For example, the scriptures exhort children to honor their father and mother at Eph. 6:4. Whilst the honor is the same i.e. not less for the mother over the father, it is expressed within the parameters of the role assigned to each parent. e.g. to assign the mother the role as head of the family, and respect her wishes and/or direction over and above (possibly in contradiction to) those of the father, would be DIS-honoring the mother (and the father) within the theocratic structure (1Cor.11:3), regardless of the motive of the one showing such "honor".

I quite agree, the honor given by a child is not different from mother to father,this is because both are respected equally. A child does not know (at a very young age) the different roles each play. I can accept as the child grows older they recognize the different roles, however they still do not honor one more than the other. just as you said, regardless of the motive, honor is equal. 

14 hours ago, Eoin Joyce said:

Similarly, showing honor to the Father would mean, respecting Him alone as the Sovereign Lord of the Universe (Ps.83:18); the Creator of all things (Is. 42:5), including His Son Jesus Christ (Col.1:15); the provider and acceptor of the Ransom Sacrifice of His Son's perfect human life (Rom.5:8); the originator of the Kingdom administration (Eph.1:10) which includes the extending of the benefits of that Ransom Sacrifice to all obedient former children of the rebellious Adam and Eve (Acts 25:15); and many other things too numerous to mention here.

 showing this honor, as John states Jesus' quote, we must honor the same. I noticed you included the words "including His Son Jesus Christ", why have you included this if you do not believe they should be honored the exact same way? 

 

14 hours ago, Eoin Joyce said:

Showing honor to the Son would include (among many other things not mentioned), acknowledging his unique role in:

This is where you are differentiating honor, separating the equal honor. You have not included the same attributes, which is required by Jesus' statement. 

14 hours ago, Eoin Joyce said:

In fact, to suggest that Jesus would consider himself equal to God would do him the greatest DIS-honor (Ph.1:6; comp. Jo.8:49).

I'm not following your references, are you meaning Philippians 1:6? and Job 8:49? there is no Job or Joshua 8:49

 

2 hours ago, Eoin Joyce said:

Just an additional thought. The context of this assigning of honor to the Son as to the Father in John 5:23 is of course in Jesus assigned role as judge. It is particularly when judging that Jesus is to be shown honor commensurate with that shown to the Father, as Jehovah has given complete authority to Jesus in this aspect. John 5:22 :"For the Father judges no one at all, but he has entrusted all the judging to the Son." . Jesus' judgement is as if Jehovah was judging and is as binding.

So are you saying that the honor is only because of Jesus role to be judge? How then how do your reconcile the scriptures in Revelation? 

Rev 5:12 saying with a loud voice, “Worthy is the Lamb who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing!”13 And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying, “To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever!”

Here we see that this same honor is bestowed upon both equally, nothing is mentioned about judging, but rather complete honor, glory (which God has said He would not share) and might. This is equal devotion, equal worship, equality. 

 

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1 hour ago, Shiwiii said:

 

So are you saying that the honor is only because of Jesus role to be judge? How then how do your reconcile the scriptures in Revelation? 

Rev 5:12 saying with a loud voice, “Worthy is the Lamb who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing!”13 And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying, “To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever!”

Here we see that this same honor is bestowed upon both equally, nothing is mentioned about judging, but rather complete honor, glory (which God has said He would not share) and might. This is equal devotion, equal worship, equality. 

 

There is nothing here that talks about "equal" honour, glory, worth, power etc.    

Rev 5:9  And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain,.....

The Lamb receives these accolades for doing something that God could not do i.e. die.  But God and the Lamb are worthy for different reasons.   The writer is not concerned about "quantities" or "sameness".  

D

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