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IS IT PROPER FOR A WOMAN TO SPEAK, TEACH AND PROPHESY?

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Pearl Doxsey - 

(1 Corinthians 14:34)... "let the women keep silent in the congregations, for it is not permitted for them to speak, but let them be in subjection, even as the Law says

Paul had been a teacher of this "Law" that he was referring to (Acts23:6). This was the Jewish Law, which viewed woman as lower class, untouchable, and as unclean.

Christ abolished this practice (Rom.4:14Eph.2:15,16Matt.9:20,21,22), as we will see. 

At Gal.2:213:1-2 Paul stated...

I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose. O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified? This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the law based in the flesh? 4 Have you suffered so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain?
Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?"
(see also Col.2:14,20Eph.2:15)

 

 Take note of how he introduces Phoebe:

 Rom.16:1,2:
"I recommend to YOU Phoe′be our sister, who is a minister of the congregation that is in Cen′chre
ae, 2 that YOU may welcome her in [the] Lord in a way worthy of the holy ones, and that YOU may assist her in any matter where she may need YOU, for she herself also proved to be a defender of many, yes, of me myself".


And what Paul said here...

1 Cor. 11:4 "Every man that prays or prophesies having something on his head shames his head; 5 but every woman that prays or prophesies with her head uncovered shames her head"...clearly reveals his realization that women can prophesy.
This is confirmed, at Acts 21:8-9.

Why the change in Paul's teaching about women?

Regarding whether the new Christian congregation continued to practice the Law, this gradually faded and those who continued to observe it, were corrected.


Heb.8:7,6,13 states:

(7) "For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah (6) But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises. (13) By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear."
So the time came for the Law to "disappear", which was at Pentecost (please noteActs1:4-51:8-92:1-4,14-18), when both men and women received the Holy Spirit under the New Covenant, and they were enabled to prophesy, speak, and teach. The Law, was then finished.

Even while the Jewish Nation was still under Law, note some accounts of women who were prophets:

(Luke 2:36,37,38) Now there was Anna a prophetess, Phan′u
els daughter, of Ashers tribe (this woman was well along in years, and had lived with a husband for seven years from her virginity, 37 and she was a widow now eighty-four years old), who was never missing from the temple, rendering sacred service night and day with fastings and supplications. 38 And in that very hour she came near and began returning thanks to God and speaking about [the child] to all those waiting for Jerusalem’s deliverance".

Judges 4:4:
"Now Deb′o
rah, a prophetess, the wife of Lappidoth, was judging Israel at that particular time....
and the sons of Israel would go up to her for judgment".

2Kings 22:14-20:
 "Accordingly Hil
kiah the priest and Ahikam and Achbor and Shaphan and Asaiahwent to Huldah the prophetess the wife of Shal′lum the son of Tik′vah the son of Har′has, the caretaker of the garments, as she was dwelling in Jerusalem in the second quarter; and they proceeded to speak to her. 15 In turn she said to them: “This is what Jehovah the God of Israel has said, ‘Say to the man that has sent YOU men to me: 16 “This is what Jehovah has said, ‘Here I am bringing calamity upon this place and upon its inhabitants, even all the words of the book that the king of Judah has read; 17 due to the fact that they have left me and have gone making sacrificial smoke to other gods in order to offend me with all the work of their hands, and my rage has been set afire against this place and will not be extinguished.’”’ 
18 And as to the king of Judah who is sending YOU to inquire of Jehovah, this is what YOU should say to him, ‘This is what Jehovah the God of Israel has said: “As regards the words that you have heard, 19 for the reason that your heart was soft so that you humbled yourself because of Jehovah at your hearing what I have spoken against this place and its inhabitants [for it] to become an object of astonishment and a malediction, and then you ripped your garments apart and began weeping before me, I, even I, have heard,” is the utterance of Jehovah. 20 “That is why here I am gathering you to your forefathers, and you will certainly be gathered to your own graveyard in peace, and your eyes will not look upon all the calamity that I am bringing upon this place.”’” And they proceeded to bring the king the reply.".

2Chron.34:22  "Accordingly Hilkiah along with those whom the king [had said] went to Huldah the prophetess, the wife of Shallum the son of Tikvah the son of Har′has the caretaker of the garments, as she was dwelling in Jerusalem in the second quarter; and they proceeded to speak to her like this. 23 In turn she said to them:...".
Side point:

Interestingly, the name Huldah (meaning mole-rat), and deborah (meaning bee) are both creatures who belong to social structures called, eusociality.

  According to Wikipedia:

Eusociality (Greek eu: "good/real" + "social") is a term used for the highest level of social organization in a hierarchical classification.
 

Examples

"The most familiar examples are social insects such as antsbees, and wasps (order Hymenoptera), as well as termites (order Isoptera), all with reproductive queens and more or less sterile workers and/or soldiers. The only mammalian examples are the naked mole rat and the Damaraland mole rat.[2]

Eusociality with biologically sterile individuals represents the most extreme form of kin selection. The analysis of eusociality played a key role in the development of theories in

sociobiology.

The phenomenon of reproductive specialization is found in various organisms. It generally involves the production of sterile members of the species, which carry out specialized tasks, effectively caring for the reproductive members. It can manifest in the appearance of individuals within a group whose behavior (and sometimes anatomy) is modified for group defense, including self-sacrificing ("altruism")."


I find it interesting that the names of both prophetesses are derived from eusocial creatures, that have a queen at the pinnacle of its complex social structure.

Let us move forward in time to the example of Christ.
Jesus corrected and defied this practice of spurning women, even doing so with a Samaritan woman. He both spoke to her and touched her, which broke that Law twice. He asked her questions and listened to her answers, also breaking this Law (John 4:7-27). He had women as friends (John 11:5,20), including a former Harlot (Luke 7:36-50). He anointed women, and is still doing so today (1Pet.3:7;Acts 1:14;2:1,2,3,4,18,33). 

Anointed women are to be among the "two witnesses"; ...anointed that he will "cause" to "prophesy" (Rev.11:3,4,5) during the last days (Acts 2:17Rev.1:10).
We read at Rev.6:9-11, that both men and women... 
     ["brothers and sisters" - Greek word for brothers and sisters
      (adelphoi) refers here to believers, both men and women, 
       as part of God’s family; also in Rev.12:1019:10.] 
..."killed" for giving their testimony. Women cannot testify, if they are silent.

Is there other scriptural proof that women can be true prophets?

See Acts 21:8-10 and Acts 2:18...

(Acts 21:9) This man had four daughters, virgins, that prophesied" (Philip)

(Acts 2:18) and even upon my men slaves and upon my women slaves I will pour out some of my spirit in those days, and they will prophesy.

 

The "Watchtower" society interprets 1Cor.14:34 as meaning that a sister cannot get up in front of the Congregation and teach the men in the audience, including perhaps her husband. Yet, women were evangelizers and prophets. So they did teach. 

Let us consider another scripture which is used to silence women, and remove them from the religious justice system.

(1 Timothy 2:11,12)... "Let a woman learn in silence with full submissiveness. 12 I (not God) do not permit a woman to teach, or to *exercise authority over a man*, but to be in silence."
Paul made a distinction between his own opinion, and one derived from God's Holy Spirit (1Cor.7:40,6,25).

When Paul stated; 
"Let a woman *learn in silence* with full submissiveness"...
I am inclined to believe that Paul was referring to the Bible's meaning of "woman" covenants, and those taken into them (Gal.4:24,26)...that these are to be silent before the Christ who teaches them (Matt.10:27;Eph.5:23,24Col.1:181Cor.12:27) This is the meaning of the context of 1Tim.2:12(1Tim.2:13,14,15Gal.4:19Rev.12:2Eph.5:23,24,32) Being "kept safe through childbearing" (1Tim.2:15) is not a reference to literal women in a physical sense, but was a symbolic, spiritual reference (Gal.4:19Rev.12:1-2John16:21-22). 


Also the submissive virginal "wife" of which Paul speaks as having this spiritual protection, is not physical, but spiritual (2Cor.11:2Matt.25:1Rev.21:9).
How might this lack of submissiveness among symbolic "women" (Rev.17:1), be evidenced?
Many anointed ones/Chosen saints, and other ecclesiastical leaders fail in their submission to Christ (John15:4-5,8),
by "speaking up" and teaching things that Christ has not given them (Matt.24:45-48;24:49-51Rev.14:8Deut.32:33). These usurp the headship and actual teachings of Christ, in favor of their own contrived tenets (Matt.15:9Col.2:22Mark7:13).


Paul was the watchdog of the first century, over this very "wife" (2Cor.11:2-311:13).
This is why he did not permit such impropriety among the "Bride"/"woman" members (Rev.21:2,919:722:17).

So, a prophetess (who is not learning from a man, but learning from God) learns in silence. This carries with it the thought that while she is learning, she should not contribute her own thoughts (John16:13). This should apply to male prophets as well, who are also members of this "woman". While silent during learning;  .....after she has learned, she can not be silent!.....(we will learn why, below.)

"I do not permit a woman to teach"...

Notice, Paul does not say, "God does not permit", he says. "I do not permit".

"or to *exercise authority over a man*"...

But, she can convey God's message without exercising authority over a man! 

By a woman writing what God's Word and spirit incites, men can choose to read and heed, or not (Eze.2:5,7).

What a true prophet offers is not based on *authority over men*, but they give what God directs by spirit. About 350 times, Bible writers wrote the words, "Hear the word of Jehovah". Yet, this message from God, came through the mouths of his prophets and prophetesses.

Neither I, other women, nor even men, have any authority to teach. While a man, even Jesus did not take this authority. (John 7:16). Only YHWH and the glorified Christ have such authority (Rev.5:4,5). They "exercise authority over" all men (Matt.28:18). What they give, we all must teach (1Cor.9:16Jer.20:9Matt10:27).

One who prophesies (male or female), must preach God's message to all (Acts5:28-29). This can be done in a respectful way that does not neglect the respect men are due (1 Peter 3:15). Men can voluntarily read what a prophetess may write. Remember, a true prophet does not teach from themselves...they only pass on what they are given by God. . Like Christ, they do not speak of their own originality. They speak what God commands and gives. They are only a vessel (Acts9:15Rom.9:21;1Thess.4:42Tim.2:21). Therefore, it is not them teaching, but God (Matt.10:20).

Should we then take all that any "prophet" says, as from God? No. Any man or woman making that claim, we must scrutinize! Jesus said this scrutiny is vital. He also told us how to do this (Matt.7:15-27Gal.5:22,23,24,25). Also, any interpretations of prophecy, must be done completely by means of God's Word (Gen.40:8Rev.22:18,19). 

Would anointed women have a role in this job of prophesying???

If you look at Gal. 3:28...

(Galatians 3:26,27,28) YOU are all, in fact, sons of God through YOUR faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For all of YOU who were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female; for YOU are all one [person] in union with Christ Jesus".

We see here that once a woman is a son of God (anointed), baptized into Christ by spirit, she no longer is considered separate from the men (or a lower female) in comparison to her other brothers in Christ. All become "sons" and "brothers" in union with Christ. This pouring out of spirit upon both men and women under the New Covenant, began at Pentecost, as discussed at the outset of this article.

Romans 12:4,5,6 reads:

 "For just as we have in one body many members, but the members do not all have the same function, 5 so we, although many, are one body in union with Christ, but members belonging individually to one another. 6 Since, then, we have gifts differing according to the undeserved kindness given to us, whether prophecy, [let us prophesy] according to the faith proportioned [to us]".
Christ's body is made of both male and female. Each uses whatever gift they are given by spirit.

1Cor. 10:17:
"Because there is one loaf, we, although many, are one body, for we are all partaking of that one loaf."

Should a female prophet fail to declare what she has received from God and Christ because of fear of man (as being over her), she would be submitting herself to men rather than to God (Acts5:29Rom.3:4). No prophecy from God should be silenced to honor men. God is obeyed and honored, foremost (John5:44Rev.4:11).

Remember what YHWH says:

(Acts 2:18) and even upon my men slaves and upon my women slaves I will pour out some of my spirit in those days, and they will prophesy".

We must prophesy, whether we are female prophets, or male prophets.

We cannot prophesy if we are "silent".

- - - - - - -

(Acts 21:9) This man had four daughters, virgins, that prophesied" (Philip)

(Acts 2:18) and even upon my men slaves and upon my women slaves I will pour out some of my spirit in those days, and they will prophesy.

(Galatians 3:26,27,28) YOU are all, in fact, sons of God through YOUR faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For all of YOU who were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female; for YOU are all one [person] in union with Christ Jesus".
 

----------------PART TWO--------------------

 "

A QUESTION:


Jehovah Witness Religion-What is the role of women?
Question: "Can a women lead the congregation in a Kingdom Hall and can she reside over a funeral?" 

ANSWER:


Hello Jane,
Your question is a bit difficult because it is really asking three things; and the answer to each is different.

In the "Subject", you ask what the role of women is in the "Jehovah's Witness" religion.
Yet your question asks if a woman can lead the Congregation in a Kingdom Hall; 
and then, if a woman can preside over a funeral.

I will do my best to give you a thorough answer to all three.

In regards to the religious doctrine of "Jehovah's Witnesses", all baptized women are considered to be in subjection to all baptized men. This means that they can not take the lead in anything within the religion, or within the Kingdom Hall. 
The only exception is what is called "taking the lead out in service". According to doctrine, a woman may, if no male is available, cover her head (to show subjection to the males who are not present), and then proceed to make field service arrangements and offer a closing prayer for that gathering. 
("Field service arrangements", determine who rides in what car with who, and what territory will be covered.) 
Other than that, women do not give "talks" in Kingdom Halls, unless they sit down at a table and put the information in "demonstration" format...a dramatization...a pretend scenario. In this way, it can be construed that she is not really "teaching" the men in her audience.
Of course to anyone who has thinking ability, this is hypocrisy.

I hope this addresses your first question.

As regards the covering of the woman's head to show subjection..."Jehovah's Witnesses" claim that all women are under subjection to all baptized men, and they must display this subjection in order to give the angels in heaven a good example. They base this doctrine upon 1Cor11:1-16:

1"Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ.  
2 Now I praise you, brethren, that you remember me in all things and keep the traditions just as I delivered them to you.  
3 But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. 
4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonors his head. 
5 But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, for that is one and the same as if her head were shaved. 
6 For if a woman is not covered, let her also be shorn. But if it is shameful for a woman to be shorn or shaved, let her be covered. 
7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. 
8 For man is not from woman, but woman from man. 
9 Nor was man created for the woman, but woman for the man. 
10 For this reason the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels. 
11 Nevertheless, neither is man independent of woman, nor woman independent of man, in the Lord. 
12 For as woman came from man, even so man also comes through woman; but all things are from God. 
13 Judge among yourselves. Is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? 
14 Does not even nature itself teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a dishonor to him? 
15 But if a woman has long hair, it is a glory to her; for her hair is given to her[a] for a covering. 
16 But if anyone seems to be contentious, we have no such custom, nor do the churches of God.

I hope that you will let this scripture, upon which "Jehovah's Witnesses" rest this doctrine, to teach you what God's Word actually says in comparison to this doctrine.
Take note of verse 5...
"But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, for that is one and the same as if her head were shaved."  
There it says that if a woman prays or prophesies uncovered, she dishonors "HER HEAD". This is saying that she need not show subjection to ALL men, but only her personal head, which is her own husband. This is confirmed at Eph.5:22,23,24:

"Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body. 24 Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything."

Therefore, the "head" of each woman, is not ALL baptized men in general, but only her own husband (baptized or not), should she be married.
What about an anointed woman or female anointed prophet? Who is her head?
Anointed (male or female) have one head...Christ. (Eph.1:225:23Col.1:182:19)
Anointed are told to put their marriage behind their calling (1Cor.7:29).

Note too, that the praying and prophesying a woman may do in verse 5, is public. 
This CONTRADICTS the doctrine, which prohibits women from saying public prayers or public teaching in Kingdom Halls. 
(This doctrine is hypocritically violated when women preach door-to-door.) 
It seems uncovered women are permitted to take the lead teaching publicly when outside the Kingdom Halls (even in the presence of baptized men), but not inside Kingdom Halls. The Bible does not make this distinction of inside or outside buildings.

Verse 15&16 go well together....
This "Witness" doctrine ignores verse 15, which indicates that this "head covering" is the natural hair a woman possesses upon her head. 
Verse 16 shows that this subject should not raise "contention". Paul makes clear that if anyone has a problem with this show of subjection as already cared for by nature itself, that the true churches of God have no such custom of requiring more. This he says to counteract the excessive demands of the Jewish law...which DID require a woman to cover her head in excess of her hair.

We see that "Jehovah's Witnesses" are doing no better than the Jews, in going beyond what is written (Acts15:28,291Cor.4:6Matt.23:4Isa.28:10).

Finally, verse 10 reads:
"For this reason the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels."
The "Witnesses" assume that this is speaking of the angelic spirits in heaven. They assume that these angels are lower than mortal women, in that women set a teaching example to these mighty Sons of God. 
According to the Bible, the PERFECT MAN Christ, was made a little LOWER than the heavenly angels (Psalm8:5Heb.2:7Phil.2:7). Now from a perfect man...we must take a BIG step down a notch to go to IMPERFECT SINFUL MAN....and then step down another notch from man to woman. We are told of perfect EVE, that unlike Adam, she was thoroughly deceived (1Tim.2:14). Are we to reason that imperfect women today are really a teaching example to the mighty perfect Sons of God in Heaven???

Let's see what this verse really means. 
1Cor.11:10:
"For this reason the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels."
The symbolism Paul refers to, can be found if we return once again to Eph.5:22,23,24; only this time lets look at what a woman's subjection to her own husband is compared to...
Verse 23&24 read:
23 For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body. 24 Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything."

Did you notice the comparison to Christ and the "Congregation"?
How does the subjection of the anointed "Congregation" (Christ's own wife/body) compare to "angels"?  (1Cor.12:27,281Cor.3:16)

It is a fact, according to the Bible, that the "New Creation" of anointed (Christ's wife), are called "angels".
In order for these "angels" ("Greek" for "messenger")...to prove faithful and be sealed, they must remain in union and subjection to the "head" Christ, as his body. (Matt.22:30Heb.1:6,71John2:281Cor.6:15Rev.1:202:8,12, etc.) It is in regards to THESE angels, that Paul makes reference to women showing subjection. A woman's subjection to her OWN HUSBAND, is a visible example to the anointed body of Christ.

But when you ask, "Can" a woman "reside" over a funeral...I'm not sure if you are asking about the doctrine of Jehovah's witnesses, or the truth of the Bible.
According to "Witness" doctrine, No...once again, due to the imaginary presence of baptized males.

If you would like to read about the role of women in the Bible, please consider “Should Women Teach?” on my blog.

You may learn there, that the Bible expects especially "anointed" women, to work as hard as men in their public teaching. For, in the "body" of Christ, there is "neither male nor female" (Gal.3:28). In that article, you will find the many scriptures that indicate that men and women are equal in God's sight; both in glory and in divine expectations.


This truth helps to answer your question about "residing over a funeral". My relatives are not Christians. Yet, at the death of a relative, I was asked to give a talk in light of my known familiarity with the Bible. I was able to use the occasion to give a fine witness to many people. Imagine God's disapproval if I had declined that opportunity, in favor of an unscriptural constraint through the doctrines of men! (Mark7:13;2Tim.4:2)

 

 

(more on 4womaninthewilderness Pearl Doxsey)

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15 hours ago, Witness said:

7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. 

8 For man is not from woman, but woman from man. 
9 Nor was man created for the woman, but woman for the man.

Paul's words here, as also those how/about, woman must be in "silence" (various forms of spiritual, intellectual, religious "silence") you mentioned, seems to me as his personal establishing, ratification of Patriarchal, Jews, Old Congregational, Man's view about how society (male society) have to, should to behave, act toward woman of all age.

He wrongly interpret bible verse 7 in Genesis, by my perception. If verse said that God created male and female on HIS IMAGE, then both are GLORY of God, not only man. Or, how  woman is glory of man. What woman? Married woman? What with unmarried woman? Then they are not glory of no one? Maybe to mother and father? Or only/just  glory of father, because mother has no such importance? 

In verse 8 Paul twisting report about Adam rib and Eve's creation from rib. What if such description is not literal way how God created Eve? But if it is literal, then Paul's conclusion must not be going in correct way. Is that (interpretation) his wish how things between man and woman have to be? And also by such verse he supports general view on woman by Jew society, and not only Jew's  but of all other in those time. And as i recall Paul never get married. Why? Only because preaching?

Verse 9 also, once again try to established same conclusion. If God created all living creatures, did he first create all male animals and all male plants, and then, latter, afterward female part of same species? Should we, can we support such argumentation also with verse 9? I do not think so. Looks funny. I don't think how any reasonable person will put things in such logic and order. But Paul and any modern Paul today perhaps would be able to come into such idea, for goal to establish an support male domination over female.  

JHVH is Father and Mother in one person, because of act of creation. 

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@Witness Women, such as Phoebe, as well as the the wife of Aquila, Priscilla (also known as Prisca) were female ministers, and solely that. They do not take up a role such as Paul and or others like Paul, but they are still favored and good contributors to the cause, that is, the Great Commission in regards to spreading the good news gospel, speaking about the Christ and the promises that his God and Father will bring forth. Women cannot be pastors and or church leaders, mainly if you take into account the Church itself, so they were not Apostles and or Church Leaders of any kind, this role is only affiliated with their counterparts, males.

But there is indeed a situation as to when a women can take the roles men hold, but usually in a dire situation as to men, both young and old are somehow not available entirely, be it due to terror, political, governmental, and or other action, this puts women in a role of a church leader such as pastor, steward/servant, but at the same time they must remain under God's Law, have head coverings and the like.

Regarding Restorationist, this is an option during a last resort, so they, the Jehovah's Witnesses, should any dire event come to them, Russia being an example, but let's say with only men taken out of the equation, then this puts women of that church in such a position, for as long as their is a man who is head and or servant, everything is as normal as can be, but a woman cannot take up such a position unless met with a situation that is literally a code red.

This goes for sermons, funerals, leading members in a study group and or anything pertaining to it, etc. But 100% of the time, without question, they must cover their heads, there is no excuse for not doing so and not doing so will put the woman in a bad light.

For the head of the Christ is God. The head of the Church is the Christ. The head of the woman is the man.

What is also rarely talked about is the fact women, only a few of them in the Bible, are Prophetess, Deborah being one, as well as Miriam, or Anna, the daughter of Phanuel, of the Tribe of Asher, who was present when Jesus as taken to the Temple of God on the 8th day prior to circumcision.

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Male species in human society ruling the world, generally. And this world with so many male leader's  became very ugly.  I don't how would look the world if female would take charge. Maybe not so much better too. But, why not to try :))))   

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1 hour ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Male species in human society ruling the world, generally. And this world with so many male leader's  became very ugly.  I don't how would look the world if female would take charge. Maybe not so much better too. But, why not to try :))))   

There has been 30+ female leaders/co-leaders and they are as equally worse and or far worse than male leaders, but it varies, for instance, we have the leader of the Egyptians known as Cleopatra who was in-between good and bad. She took down and ruined her own brother's Kingdom and killed him by means of an order, she also had her sister killed. She literally attracted so many men of her time that would cut their own foot to lay with her, hence why she prostituted herself around to even the Romans, and had a connection with a prominent one, Caesar. Ironically, she is respected because she wanted to keep the culture and traditions of the Egyptians in check and did everything by means of her power, as well as her looks, to do what is necessary. Not a good person by means of the standards though, but most certainly had chaotic evil compared to most women rulers out of the many we had so far around the world for centuries. But she also respect the native tradition of the Egyptian, tried every trick in her books to preserve the integrity of her nation against the ever expanding Roman military. She is a good leader, one of the best her people could ever hope for - but she was definitely not a ‘good person’ by most standard.

But as with what we learn from history, there is no specific age and or the sex of the individual, for power begets action and action, at times begets evil due to corruption.

Other than that, as for what is in discussion, a woman cannot be a religious leader. What can be done is covering for a religious leader, but never, ever can take his place, and even if she was to hold a position, temporarily, she is to cover her head in order to not disrespect God's Laws and or what is active by means of the church foundation.

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4 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

Women cannot be pastors and or church leaders, mainly if you take into account eh Church itself, so they were not Apostles and or Church Leaders of any kind,this role is only affiliated with their counterparts, males.

I must ask, did you read the article written by Pearl?  You offer no scriptures as a rebuttal, while the article is chocked full of them supporting the role of women as teachers and prophets.

Just look at the example of prophets.

“Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21 In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22 And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.”  Eph 2:20-22

“Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. 28 And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues[d]? Do all interpret? 31 Now eagerly desire the greater gifts.” 1 Cor 12:27-31

There is no demarcation between male or female in these scriptures.  It is in the minds of men.

“Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said30 And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop. 31 For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged.” 1 Cor 14:29-31

So you see, women who were prophets were to instruct others, which included men. Thus, prophets could be teachers as well.  And as far as teachers go, does it say they must be male?  Are you speaking for God when you say women cannot teach?  How do you know women who are anointed are not given the admonition by Holy Spirit to teach, especially when we have record of women prophets who also instructed others in the congregations?

“There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.”  Gal 3:28

Prophets that we know of in the New Testament:

Anna

Mary

Philip’s daughters

Over the ages since Christ, we can guarantee there were more:

Acts 2:17,18 - ‘And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God,
That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh;
Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
Your young men shall see visions,
Your old men shall dream dreams.
18 And on My menservants and on My maidservants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days;
And they shall prophesy.’

 

 

 

 

 

 

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7 hours ago, Witness said:

I must ask, did you read the article written by Pearl?  You offer no scriptures as a rebuttal, while the article is chocked full of them supporting the role of women as teachers and prophets.

I have read it, simply putting it out there that women are in no position to be church leaders and or having a pastoral-like position over that of men, for, the church’s structure is ever so evident and clear, even in relation to the structure of the family and or that of Adam and Eve, as to what is said and this cannot be changed regardless of how one tries to make the attempt, you cannot tweak and o change what has been set in motion and or entrusted which is in strong connection with God's Purpose and Will. Women can be ministers, teachers and prophets (prophetesses), but never has women in the church’s history from biblical times to the days of the early church and The Didache had a woman been a religious leader of authority over men, like I said, a position held by only men of authority and women are restricted to ministers and teachers, prophetess roles, as well as those who have the gifts.

This isn’t a matter of men vs. women as some people over the years make it seem to be, for this has been debated for years, and the truth itself speaks, we should be in no position to make a change of what is written.

I figured this point be made because rarely does anyone speak of the church’s actual structure and there are those quick to claim that if women are and can be ministers and prophets to teach and or prophesied, they make it seems as though they have authority to lead the church and some even make excuses and rather weak arguments, which is incorrect in many cases, granted if one reads the Bible and understands the structure from man to woman, to the family to the church correctly. Only then you will see why women cannot and will not hold a position of a authority and True Christian women will even tell you this for they know what the Bible says and these women are the very ones who will refute mainstream Christian women who do not put what is said in the Bible 100% - again, a clear distinction between a True Christian and a mainstream Christian.

7 hours ago, Witness said:

Eph 2:20-22

I am aware of what a prophetess is, a position held by women, if I was not aware why would have I had mention these women such as Miriam, Deborah, Anna? Perhaps the others I spoke of months ago in relation to remarks made regarding the early church itself?

Ephesians 2:20-22 (Epistle to the Ephesians), One in Christ, which speaks of what is actually being read from verses 11-22 and of the actual title of said passages in the chapter - those being One in Christ, I believe this has already been discussed before regarding the Spiritual House, granted it speaks of the Christ being the very foundation of the church itself, the stone/cornerstone of the church. For such ones, both the Jews and the Gentiles, be it men or women are indeed one in Christ for the gender of one is not even irrelevant, as well as race and or position for what matters is being in the Christ, for here they themselves having the True God dwell in them as He did in Christ, as we learn later on of our early brothers and sisters of the church in the Scriptures.

7 hours ago, Witness said:

1 Cor 14:29-31

As for 1 Cor. 14:29-31, it is best to read out the entire passage portion of this and the references itself. The entire Orderly Worship portion in Chapter 14 of 1 Corinthians is verses 26 to 40, this is also not only regarding the brothers, but the sisters, the women, as well, moreover, the very outline of the passage half way through is titled women's position in the church.

7 hours ago, Witness said:

Gal 3:28

Granted with how one sees the passage but never put into application the very context.

People of any race, age and or gender is irrelevant, for what matters is such ones being together, one in Christ, these persons who take in knowledge that is like a treasure, having the Holy Spirit, allows God to dwell in them as He did in Jesus, and Jesus himself dwells in such ones as well, mainly if you take into account what Jesus said to His disciples in his final prayer, the same disciples who had been entrusted with the abilities of the church, of which is practiced and followed by the early church of the time, mainly in Apostle Paul's day. But is is no surprise people will use Galatians 3:28 when the very weight of what the Bible says holds more regarding the church's structure and those being one in Christ.

7 hours ago, Witness said:

Prophets that we know of in the New Testament:

Anna

Mary

Philip’s daughters

Some of them have already been mentioned. None of them held religious leadership and or authority of any kind in the church over men, regardless of their views.

  • Miriam was a Prophetess (Exodus 15:20)
  • Deborah was a Prophetess (Judges 4:4-7, 14-16)
  • Huldah  was a Prophetess (2 Kings 22:14-20, 2 Chronicles 34:22-28)
  • Isaiah's wife was spoken of to be the prophetess (Isaiah 8:3)
  • Noadiah was a Prophetess (Nehemiah 6:14)
  • God spoke to Ezekiel of Israelite women who were acting as Prophetesses (Ezekiel 13:17-19, 13:20-23)
  • Anna was a Prophetess (Luke 2:36-38)
  • That of Philip’s four virgin daughters, having been prophesied under that of God’s Holy Spirit. (Acts 21:9; 1 Corinthians 12:4, 10, see Joel 2:28, 29 and Acts 2:14-18) as well as the mention of head coverings (1 Corinthians 11:3-6)
  • Jezebel-like woman who act as Prophetesses (Revelations 2:20-23)
  • Prophecies will be spoken in the last days by both men and women, young and old (Joel 2:28; Acts 2:17). This was seen on the Day of Pentecost, when God bypassed the priests and scribes and spoke to the people of Jerusalem through the common people of the early church (Acts 2:12; 4:13)

I haven't seen Mary mentioned as a Prophetess in the Bible compared to the others, so I leave you with the opportunity to show us where exactly it says she is called a Prophetess. She did in fact met one, and that Prophetess she has met with was Anna.

8 hours ago, Witness said:

Over the ages since Christ, we can guarantee there were more:

Acts 2:17,18 - ‘And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God,
That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh;
Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
Your young men shall see visions,
Your old men shall dream dreams.
18 And on My menservants and on My maidservants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days;
And they shall prophesy.’

Yes, but as to where female servants/slaves are said to have authority over the church, especially over that of men of authority? It is already seen as to what position they hold in teaching by means for he ministry, but never do we see the church's structure having the religious leadership position in a pastoral-like fashion held by a woman.

8 hours ago, Witness said:

There is no demarcation between male or female in these scriptures.  It is in the minds of men.

And yet you ignore the very structure of what has been put in place even by means of God's view? Nothing of which you are addressing shows anyone here that women hold a position of religious leadership and authority or said position of office over that of men IN the church.

8 hours ago, Witness said:

So you see, women who were prophets were to instruct others, which included men. Thus, prophets could be teachers as well.  And as far as teachers go, does it say they must be male?  Are you speaking for God when you say women cannot teach?  How do you know women who are anointed are not given the admonition by Holy Spirit to teach, especially when we have record of women prophets who also instructed others in the congregations?

Being a prophet, minister, teacher does not override the authority of a religious and or church leader of a pastoral-like level over a man of similar and or equal position. Teachers are both male and female, but according to how God’s actions through even his Son, the Christ, what is set is very specific role and action to both male and female.

According to the church’s structure, I defend what God’s Word informs us about, unlike mainstream Christendom, I do not try to alter what the Church structure is, try to change up God’s Laws because for some it is burdensome and or harsh and or seen as unnecessary, I do not try to tweak anything in relation to binding and loosening, the abilities of which has been entrusted to the Church by the Christ himself and a list of other things. I am aware enough to speak, saying by means of biblical interpretation on even this subject for years now and what is said is indeed true and unbreakable. Other than that, is is a very good thing that people like me are aware and have studied the church's history to even make known of what is actually the case in terms of religious leadership.

Why wouldn’t I know? Pentecost was indeed something that everyone knows and who was involved and who had received the outpouring of the Spirit, both men and women included, as well as all the disciples of Jesus who remained in the city, which also includes Judas’ replacement, Matthias. What took place right after the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, the helper given to the people? Those having the Spirit and by means of the Spirit’s power allow God to be with them, as he was with the Christ, these people went on to preach and teach, having people coming to know God, know his Son and what the Kingdom is all about, and those who became disciples become teachers themselves, and the cycle of making teachers of disciples continues until the conclusion of the End Times and Tribulations. But nowhere we see a woman, be it a minister, prophetess, teacher, etc take up the role of a church leader of which is only this position of authority is associated with men.

The records show us that women taught as teachers and some of them were prophetesses. No Church structure has a religious and or church leader that is a woman, and attempting to place a prophetess, a minister and or teacher in such a position is only bringing forth accursed doctrinal teachings (Galatians 1:8-11).

Now, Jesus, the head of the church did indeed call on to women to help out in this regard, and he called them into significant ministry, for He was for them. Although he did not choose women to be apostles, as some argue, it does not mean that the role of women in the church was not important at all. Jesus was one to believe that it is beneficial for the church and the family if men assumed the role of Christ-like servant and leaders, and women came in alongside with their respective gifts to help carry the leadership through according to those gifts in regards of the church, for instance, teaching, ministerial work, etc. For it is not a surprise to anyone that God has ordained that in the home and in the church men assume a special role of responsible of not only teaching, but assume role of leadership, which is in conjunction with the church structure itself by means of the head of the church.

Now, God’s Word makes known of the following, that a woman should learn in quietness and full submission, in addition, it does not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, which is the case with any leadership and or pastoral-like position, for she must be silent

  • 1 Timothy 2:11-12 – (11) Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. (12) I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.

Regarding the church, God has different roles and or position for both men and women, which is in connection with the way mankind was created and the way in which sin entered the world

  • 1 Timothy 2:13-14 – (13) For Adam was formed first, then Eve; (14) and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.

Our Heavenly Father, through an Apostle, Apostle Paul, has place restrictions on to women from serving in roles of leadership regarding teaching or having spiritual authority over men, a high position in the church, if you will, which prevents women from serving as pastors over men of authority, which definitely includes preaching, teaching them publicly, and exercising spiritual authority over such men.

According to the women I have mention several times here and elsewhere, some will make the claim that women can be leaders and or pastors of a church, religious leadership by ill interpretation, mainly when said interpretation is heavily focused on Miriam, Deborah, and Huldah, all of them being Prophetesses (Prophets)  in the Hebrew Old Testament. It is true, without question and or doubt, that these women were chosen by God Yahweh/Jehovah for special service to Him and that they stand as examples in the faith by means of their courage and their actions, and, yes, one can say such is somewhat of a leadership role, however, the authority of women in the Hebrew Old Testament is not relevant to the issue of pastoral-like position of leadership in the church itself; of the church. The Greek New Testament Epistles shows us a model for God’s people, the church, which is the foundation - the Body of Christ, which involves an authorial structure very unique to the church, and only the church.

Now that we are in the Greek New Testament, we can go more in-depth of both Priscilla (Prsica) and Phoebe, both of them being ministers and or teachers. We know that in Acts chapter 18, Priscilla, and her husband, Aquila, are presented as ministers. Both Priscilla and her husband teach the gospel of Jesus Christ to many, even the likes of Apollos, a Christian Jew raised in the city of Alexandria (the place of higher education and learning known for its wonderful library in those days as well as culture), the capital of the Roman province of Egypt. This man of whom the faithful and courageous couple preached to was well versed, knowledgeable and educated.

Because of  Aquila , as well as his wife, Priscilla, their ministry by means of teaching Apollos accurate knowledge of God was a success, hence God’s spirit enabled him to show enthusiasm for the right things and to be willing to accept teachings that were more accurate of which he received by means of this ministry.

The very reason it can see seen in verse 26 of the passage that they explained to him the way of God more adequately, hence why he was able to receive accurate knowledge about God as mentioned right above (Acts 18:26). Although we see this, we do not, in fact, never in the Bible that the wife of Aquila, Priscilla, held a pastoral role in a/of the church or taught publicly or became the religious leader of the church, and or a congregation of saints.

Now we go to Phoebe, a Christian woman of the church in Cenchreae. In Romans 16:1, Phoebe is called a deacon [diakonos in Greek] (or in this case, a servant), in the church and she is highly commended by Apostle Paul. But just like Priscilla, there is nothing in Scripture to indicate and or show that Phoebe was a pastor or one for having religious leadership of men of authority in the church. The ability to teach is given as a qualification for elders and or church leaders, but not for deacons (1 Timothy 3:1-13, Titus 1:6-9).

Going back to what was said above, the structure of 1 Timothy 2:11-14 pretty much makes for reason why women cannot be pastors fairly clear and analyzing Apostle Paul’s statement is very simple, mainly verse 13 to that of 11 and 12.

We also have to take into consideration that of both Adam and Eve. For this also is very simple: Adam was created first, and second came Eve. Adam was not the first to deceive, for it was the woman, Eve, who was the first deceived (again, 1 Timothy 2:11-14). God created Adam first and then created Eve to be a helper for Adam. The very order of creation has an application in the family structure as seen in Ephesians 5:22-33, and in the church, it is quite obvious of how the structure actually is.

The fact that Eve was deceived being read in 1 Timothy 2:14 as a reason for women not serving as pastors or having heighten authority over men is abundantly clear. This does not mean that women are gullible or that they are all more easily deceived than men, otherwise they would not would be in a position to even teach/care for children, having the gifts, or ministerial works. The text simple and clear, that women are not to teach men of authority or have some form of religious authority over men and the reasons for such is also clear. God Almighty has chosen to give men the primary teaching authority in the church and we can see this in scripture as well as what His Son entrusted the church.

Many women handle various gifts of which is good, such hospitality, mercy, teaching, ministerial works in accordance with the gospel, and helping/serving, there is also no restriction on praying as some nowadays also come up with a silly argument of, for in their part, they are wrong (1 Corinthians 11:5). Majority of the ministry of the church, locally, is dependent on women and their actions of contribution, for instance we have a Christian woman of God by the name of Lydia, who was most likely a Jewish proselyte. Also, the Bible nowhere restricts women from exercising the gifts that comes from the Holy Spirit itself  as seen in 1 Corinthians 12, Spiritual Gifts (1-11), One Body with Many Members (12-31). Despite not having a religious leadership role in the church and or position of office in some regard, women, just as much as men, are called to minister to others, to put into application and express that of the Fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23), and to proclaim the gospel to the those who do not know what the gospel teaches (Matthew 28:18-20, Acts 1:8, 1 Peter 3:15).

God has put into place and action that only men are to serve in positions of religious leadership which includes teaching authority in the church, in addition, some will even point to 1 Corinthians 11:3, 7-8 of which can be seen of how God has said how the church and family hierarchy should be like. This is not because men are necessarily better teachers or because women are inferior or less intelligent, but simply, it is the way God designed the church to function, it is also the way of which the Christ has set forth for the church. Men are to set the example in religious leadership in their lives, their household and through their words, on the other hand, women are to take a less authoritative role. Women are and always have been encouraged to teach other women as we read in Titus 2:3-5 and the Bible also does not restrict, as is mentioned already, women from teaching children. The only activity women are restricted from is religious authority of teaching or having authority over men thus preventing women from serving as pastors to men. This does not make women less important, but rather gives them a ministry focus more in agreement with God’s Purpose and Will, as well as the gifts HE has given to them.

We must also be very aware that True Christian women follow the examples set in the Bible itself, as seen in Proverbs 31:10-31. As sated above, women cannot hold a religious position of authority over men, an indication from the scriptures itself which is as true as the sun in the sky, but they, like men, have a full share and position of the work of the Great Commission itself, the ministry regarding the making of disciples, the spreading of the gospel to the people, bringing them to learn and take in accurate knowledge of the truth of which comes from the Bible. And as stated already, they, when taking into account how the church is structured in a family sense, teach children (Proverbs 1:8), by means of their words and action, women who are True Christians, who know what the Bible say, even to what is being discussed, work hard to be a good influence, once again, Titus 2:3-5.

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6 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

Jezebel-like woman who act as Prophetesses (Revelations 2:20-23)

Revelation speaks of "Jezebel" in a symbolic way.  No discretion is made that this Jezebel-like individual would be a woman.  In fact, this individual could very well likely be a man, or a collection of men.  Revelation's Jezebel obviously teaches/rules over others through seduction.  Rev. 2:20   "She" rules over the anointed house of God.  

"She" is a false prophet/Harlot   Rev 13:11  And one of Babylon the Great's many "daughters".  Rev 17:5  

How many false prophets are there that you know of, who are men?   I know of 8 who reside over the Watchtower, who have left their covenant with Christ, no longer "virgins", having defiled their "garments" by teaching lies.  2 Cor 11:2-4   They have seduced all of God's anointed ones (men or women) to "put up with" another gospel; disregarding their obligation to listen only to Christ.  

Men and women, who are to be found at Christ's return, "virgins".  

Just another example showing that there is no discretion in God's eyes as to whom, in the anointed Body of Christ, can teach.  It is not based on one's sex.

 

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Witness said:

Revelation speaks of "Jezebel" in a symbolic way.  No discretion is made that this Jezebel-like individual would be a woman.  In fact, this individual could very well likely be a man, or a collection of men.  Revelation's Jezebel obviously teaches/rules over others through seduction.  Rev. 2:20   "She" rules over the anointed house of God.  

I am already aware of the symbolism in majority of Revelations (it is not unknown to anyone the outline for this book is called The Revelation of John, and or The Apocalypse [of John]), I simply made mention of Revelations 2:20-23 for this point that is to be made of anything in regard of Prophetess by means of mention and or occurrences (9-10 in combination with H/G text), specifically the Greek New Testament. Granted it is among the list of biblical text that mentions anything in relation with Prophetesses.

Moreover, the title for each portion in chapter 2 and the outline makes that very obvious:

Titled

  • To the Church in Ephesus (1-7)
  • To the Church in Smyrna (8-11)
  • To the Church in Pergamum (12-17)
  • To the Church in Thyatira (18-29)

outlined

  • Messages to Ephesus (1-7)
  • Messages to Smyrna (8-11)
  • Messages to Pergamum (12-17)
  • Messages to Thyatira (18-29)

As for what the passage conveys, the Jezebel-like woman (Jezebel Spirit) is in regards of the Church of Thyatira, of whom had claimed to have prophetic powers, but at the same time has taken  the course of ancient false prophetesses and received the condemnation of Christ, Jesus, in his message to Apostle John at Revelations 2:20-23. This one improperly acted as a teacher and misled members of the church into wrong practices and action - again, leads such ones into accursed teachings - as is done by the Jezebel of old.

For this passage in the chapter in question, for this is why you have to take into context the very cross-references that stem from those 5 specific verses, for the basic references total up to 6 verses, extended theological research, the total, max,  is up to 24.

  • Jezebel woman points to 1 Kings 16:31 and 2 Kings 9:22
  • She teaches and misleads the slaves to commit sexual immorality (porneia) 1 Corinthians 5:11, Galatians 5:19, Ephesians 5:5
  • scr: 1 Kings 21:25, 2 Kings 9:7, 22, Ezekiel 13:17, Acts 15:20, 29, 1 Corinthians 10:20
  • He will give us each according to our deed for the Churches will know who has dealt with her Revelations 22:12
  • scr: Psalms 7:9, 26:2, 139:1, Jeremiah 11:20, 17:10, Matthew. 16:27, Luke 16:15, Acts 1:24, Romans 8:27, Revelations 20:12-13

The Jezebel in of Thyatira is one woman or a group/collection of women, not men specifically in regards to what it is pointing to, but to some degree men and women who are influenced and or effect by means of this woman, this Spirit of Jezebel, with Scriptural evidence makes it very clear of whom this is directed to and why this is and of whom she influences.

This one and or those of this Jezebel Spirit (her Spirit as some would say) encourage and condones immorality and idolatry among and within God’s people, from every nook and carny, from young ones to old within the church. Those in the church have been persuaded, they listened to her, subdued by her, for Jesus speaks as though as if those who take to ear of what she says are like her children, for they are her followers, as we can see and read in Revelations 2:22, 23 and clearly such ones are to be punished. Because of her, her influence spreads like virus to a population who are ill-equipped/unaware [of] for it, for it threatens to make the Church of Thyatira and it's people corrupt, as is done to Israel in the very days of A'hab. She bears high influence the Jezebel of old, pagan princess turned Queen, the wife of A'hab. She is said to have strong personality and the fact that she claimed to be a prophetess gave her quite the seat in the church. The ill practices she brings forth to the people also had some form of role with patron god(s), false gods (tutelary deity).

The teaching of Jezebel in Thyatira is also in relation of that of Ba'laam in Pergamum, see Revelation 2:14. For The Church of Pergamum had to deal with heavy persecution, and only a few were imitating Ba'laam of old in promoting fornication and idolatry, which resulted in people being cursed, and a lot of bloodshed to cleanse said curse, the preserving of young women who were not affected, in addition to anything relating to Ba'laam's practices being destroyed, for the practices were very disgusting. (Also just as a note, passages in relation of Ba'laam such as what took place with the cursed ones leads mainstream Christians to reject Moses entirely. This is because when a question in this regard is pose they find it extremely difficult to answer, mainly in regards to Moses status of a Prophet).

Regardless, that of Ba'laam, and of which we know about the Jezebel woman is ill conduct, corruption and dealers of death, and their words tickle the ears of God's people, and easily pushes some of these people to be followers, of which is the case with the Church of Thyatria, in regards to the Jezebel woman.

For this is existing to this day and onward until the End Times conclude and it involves many leaders of Christendom who imitate Jezebel in tolerating in their churches ill practices such as homosexuality, fornication, unrepentant sin(s), liberalization the church, sick influence and ideas, immorality (even promoting it), adultery, abortion, abandoning and or watering down God's Laws and Bible-based standards, and most importantly, of which is being done today, allowing themselves to be among religious leaders who are on a conquest for peace, for such ones believe with conviction that all persons should for their cause, all persons should be for the EI.I., which is obviously and known by all to be in connection with the Harlot, and other things that is condemned by God. 

Therefore, we should be aware and avoiding these things, it's influence and it's ideas of which are adopted by both men and women, we should be avoiding the Jezebel woman just as we avoid Ba'laam, who is as equally bad as the other one. When we do so, we please our El Shaddai, God, who is our Father.

3 hours ago, Witness said:

"She" is a false prophet/Harlot   Rev 13:11  And one of Babylon the Great's many "daughters".  Rev 17:5  

Granted we are talking about the Jezebel woman who is spoken of as a Prophetess, specifically, it would be very wise to stick to the very references that stem from the verses itself. We already know the Great Harlot herself, but we are talking about those deem as Prophetesses who mislead the churches, regardless, we already know this one is of Babylon, but not the great prostitute herself.

Revelations 13:11 is in regards to The Beast out of The Sea and The Earth, we already know Babylon's connection with the Beast.

Revelations 17:5 the Jezebel Woman is of Babylon the Great, she is not Babylon the Great, in as much the same way as Ba'laam is of Babylon the Great.

We can talk about Babylon the Great, but again, the focus here is about Prophetess mentioned, which includes the Jezebel Woman (Jezebel Spirit) and religious leaders.

3 hours ago, Witness said:

Men and women, who are to be found at Christ's return, "virgins".  

Perhaps dwell on something that is not already known, for this I am fully aware, ponce again, for if it was the the case to profess such I would not have stated anything alluding to that previously.

Regardless of men and or women prior to Christ's return, gender is irrelevant here, as is said before, granted if you take in all seriousness of what Apostle Paul had said to the churches by means of his Epistles, especially in regards to the Galatians or that of the church structure itself - religious leadership and authority within the church.

3 hours ago, Witness said:

Just another example showing that there is no discretion in God's eyes as to whom, in the anointed Body of Christ, can teach.  It is not based on one's sex.

And yet the structure of the church and family is very clear on who is in position of religious leadership in the church itself. You've yet to show anything in regards of women church leaders when it is already known of what a Prophetess is, women who teach and or minister despite not being able to and or allowed to be religious leaders as seen by the evidence and the like.

So it is clear you are not really aware of how God by means of his Son have the church set up, dare I ask are you aware of what abilities the church leaders also possess?

Also you still have not mention Mary in depth, as you did list her as a Prophetess when we see she met one. And we have yet to see the biblical basis of the church leadership being assumed, in role and office, by a woman/women. You make it seem as though being a minister, teacher and or prophetess is a qualification to be a religious leader of authority when the reality is, how the church is, is enough evidence against you at this point, the most critical thing, real genuine Christian women knows what I have made mention and are in agreement, for they know how the church is structure and very clearly can see this by mans of the Bible itself, therefore, in regards to leadership in the church, women having authority of that of men of authority - is unfounded, and it is deemed an accursed teaching and or practice when the weight of the evidence is like that of a stone that you yourself cannot lift.

The same goes for those that take issue with women and head coverings who do so in respects to biblical standards and God's Laws.

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IS IT PROPER FOR A WOMAN TO SPEAK, TEACH AND PROPHESY?

By Witness,  in Jehovah's Witnesses 

 

YES IT IS!

Spirit who giving inspiration not choosing person, who will be employed for acting for some purpose, based on sex/gender. 

Answer on that is giving by life itself, not by the book, even if that book called Bible. 

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@Srecko Sostar Even without the Bible, the instruction of the church's hierarchy is clear and concise and is of God on to his Son, to the people of whom he entrusted the abilities of the church to, which is clear of leadership authority of the church, therefore, to speak as though women held such a position over a men is both unfounded and accursed - that is, if we take God's  purpose and will of which is included of the church itself seriously.

Also why re-link this thread when you are posting on this thread? Other than that, both you and Witness have a lot of history to catch up on in regards of church hierarchy and why it is of whom is to assume role of religious leadership. 

We should not being attempting to change what is in place, or tweak what is in place as if it was a game of The Sims, this is serious stuff and should be taken seriously. For if ye cannot stand the heat that cometh from the kitchen, ye must make haste and leave.

 

Other than that, both of you have not proven any women being of religious authority and or leadership by means of the church's core structure of which is professed in scripture and in historical evidence of the early church, let alone the claim of Mary 

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1:26] Then God said, "Let us make humankind in our image, according to our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the wild animals of the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth."
[1:27] So God created humankind in his image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them.
[1:28] God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the air and over every living thing that moves upon the earth."

NO INDICATION how God was said anything about a hierarchy that favors a male over a female.

 

[2:18] Then the LORD God said, "It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a helper as his partner."
[2:19] So out of the ground the LORD God formed every animal of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called every living creature, that was its name.
[2:20] The man gave names to all cattle, and to the birds of the air, and to every animal of the field; but for the man there was not found a helper as his partner.

WHY this chapter told that God made some soft of omission, when 1 chapter say that God create both of them without time gap. How could be that Creator made all in pairs, but missed to see how male man would be lost, lonely, unsuccessful without female man "Helper". If male need helper in person of female, then he (Adam and all Adam till today) needs HELP in ALL what he/they need, have to do. According to verse, he need to have HELPER AS PARTNER. NOT helper as female servant, female slave, female mute.

A man is incomplete without a woman! Verse said so! So how we come to the point that woman must be in "silent" in all things, not only in so called "spiritual" things connected with faith, beliefs,  worshiping.  

In WT religion husband or male must to have last/final word on anything, according to GB bible scholars teachings. With or without "helper" help/helping :))))

 

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For over 40 years, I used to sit at a drafting table, and later at computer monitors, and design things.

... all kinds of things.

Lets say my boss came to seven different designers and asked for us to design something ... anything,

Without rock-solid airtight specifications you might get seven versions of whatever that thing was.

You might get an MP3 player that weighs 20 pounds and looks like a bathroom fixture.

At the time Eve was created there were already millions of pre-humans that evolved, but none directly created by God, until Adam and Eve were created. ( ... a planet full of a million tons and more of fossils make it pretty clear what DID happen .... ).

By the way ... that's where Cain got his wife, and further messed up the gene pool ....)

Jehovah God is not accountable to us as to how WE think he should have done things .... he COULD have made us have a caterpillar stage like butterflies, and that would have been his choice.

The really cool thing about being Almighty God, is the absolute flexibility  and power to do ANYTHING you want, however you see fit.

Second guessing the Almighty God is, by practical definition, an exercise in futility.

 

 

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7 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

NO INDICATION how God was said anything about a hierarchy that favors a male over a female.

Did you not read the above and or choose at your own will to avoid of actual truth in this matter? And so I cometh, to invite ye, to gaze upon what is written above in response.

It's not a matter of favoritism, Sostar, it is a matter of how Adam and then Eve had came about on to the earth as to how the church and family is structured, of which is heavily explained above in full detail.

A female cannot be above the man, a child cannot be above his father and or mother, mainly in regards to the father who is present and is of authority to the family household for he is the head, or as the Americans say, The Man of the House.

If you think of such in this regard, show me where in the bible that the woman is the head of the man? Unfounded and indefensible.

For it would seem in the realm of the church by means of history, you are not strong in this domain here.

For as your other comments, you've already crashed your new car before it has even left the Dealer's Lot.

7 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

WHY this chapter told that God made some soft of omission, when 1 chapter say that God create both of them without time gap. How could be that Creator made all in pairs, but missed to see how male man would be lost, lonely, unsuccessful without female man "Helper". If male need helper in person of female, then he (Adam and all Adam till today) needs HELP in ALL what he/they need, have to do. According to verse, he need to have HELPER AS PARTNER. NOT helper as female servant, female slave, female mute.

Adam was made first and only later on when Adam was in subjection of wanting a mate of his own after seeing the animals, Eve had been , made when Adam went into a deep sleep and a rib was take out of his body and used by God to make another human being, a female, of whom is called and name Eve (for she was named by Adam himself).

So to say there was no time gap, clearly you haven't really read into Genesis that much.For chapter 1 of Genesis is of the beginning of creation in an introductory form, for if God was spoken of to make man and woman and yet in chapter 2 we see him only now making Adam, you are only going to run into a problem here. This is the same case with John 1 and Mark 1 for some people, apparently yours, it is Genesis.

Perhaps because man was made in his image and likeness only after every other thing in the heavens and the sea has been created? Granted of when God created the first man, that alone is a clue of which is in place for you to follow.

Helper and or Partner is irrelevant to the discussion and I rather not go out of discussion. Today, Sostar, the key phrase is being focused, so no more games, giggles and convoluted statements form this point on.

Lastly, you fail to see that the women is clearly no mute, the focus here is religious leadership, after all you were in agreement some points before, why the change?

7 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

A man is incomplete without a woman! Verse said so! So how we come to the point that woman must be in "silent" in all things, not only in so called "spiritual" things connected with faith, beliefs,  worshiping.  

Clearly you haven't read and or taken into context of what was stated. This time take into account biblical facts and information, mainly that of the historic position of the early church itself.

7 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

In WT religion husband or male must to have last/final word on anything, according to GB bible scholars teachings. With or without "helper" help/helping :))))

At this point, the Watchtower is as irrelevant as a fly on the wall for they know their stance in regard of the early church nor making mention of them will help your resolve here - granted of how strong the historical ascpets of the church that comes from the Bible is made known to us, therefore, even predates JWs for them and all of us were not alive or even existing during the days of the early church, for even anything from them will save you from what is being talked about - Church History, something of which those who claim to be Christians and yet adhere to the mainstream do not have a grasp of knowledge in. Today you'll learn and you will learn it the hard way.

As is said before, we only see the virgin Mary meeting a Prophetess, Mary is never spoken of to be a Prophetess, granted her position in all this, as is Elizabeth, the mother of John the Baptist.

We know women can be ministers, teachers, prophetess, which is absolutely true, but NEVER we see in the church's structure that a women holds office to and or religious leadership of authority within the church's history and it is yet unseen by means of the biblical accounts of anyone who makes claim and or attempts to connect something that is not there, putting a puzzle piece in the wrong spot, so to speak.

We know of dire situations that will put women to task, but such is not permanent and or everlasting, and if oversea affairs has taught us anything, we see such being done, and I o not need to post any sources from Syria again because I have already and mention such over and over, even to you.

That being said, you can go about and speak your peace, you cannot do anything to alter and or try to refute that of the early church's position in regards to religious leadership and authority and the roles and position of men and women of the church.

You can go about speaking of women ministers and the like, but clearly when it comes to the church's authority, you are merely throwing pebbles at a titanium wall right now, a fight that cannot be finished, a fight that cannot be won, case and point, Sostar. Other than that, I find your lack in giggles disturbing this time around.

The only people to fight for religious leadership of authority to be held by women are only those of the mainstream Christendom, for they think if a man can do it, they can do it too, having a total disregard of what the Bible says and the history of the church as seen in the Bible. To make matters worse, they do not even take into account of head coverings.

So it is wise to not cross a line that you yourself knows is not right.

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