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IS IT PROPER FOR A WOMAN TO SPEAK, TEACH AND PROPHESY?

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4 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Could not a Prophetess also be a housemaid? 

I assume they have to work for a living.

I wouldn't say housemaid for Prophetess were not such ones to clean homes of other people, rather, some of them were deemed ones in maidenhood, meaning who had not have had any sexual relations with a man and or virgins, but some are not. Some examples would be Prophet Isaiah's wife, although unnamed, her she was a Prophetess, for this was professed by Isaiah. She and her husband had children together. Next we have Anna, the one who met with Joseph and Mary. She is The daughter of Penuel, of the Tribe of Asher, and she was married until she became a widow when her husband had passed. We also have evil ones who are for brazen conduct who originate, we can take example of what is said of Ba'laam and Jezebel and how those replicate them, in this case, how such ones replicate Jezebel, which seems to be the case with one church mention in the Bible.

 

Other than that, everything spoken of is indeed true, but it would seem people nowadays do not like History, or that of even social studies when it comes to things of old, History of the Church 101 was clearly an elective that was no selected this semester for such ones and therefore, their knowledge in this domain is lacking.

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1 hour ago, Space Merchant said:

you are not a fan of Abraham

now i am in dilemma. To be fan of you or of Abraham? :)))) 

1 hour ago, Space Merchant said:

or is this another one of your mind games

pick for yourself what you like more

1 hour ago, Space Merchant said:

can you be more specific 

i think how you are not entitled do hear more privileged information then I already said  in public, details about. So i will not tell a "lie", "half truth", "white lie" or "misleading information", but "be in silence" and suffer consequences (verbal persecution) of such decision :)))))   

stay well!

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53 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

now i am in dilemma. To be fan of you or of Abraham? :)))) 

2 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

As I recall, which was recent, of what was said when I defended Abraham and what the Promise of that God had made to him. Apostle Paul spoke of this the very reason such is in direct references to being One in Christ what it implies and why Abraham, who was not killed for what he did and he kept alive, even his wife, as I said before, was seen as a hero, for she complied with her husband of whom she called lord in order for God's Promise to continue into the days of David well into the days of both Joseph and Mary and what come to have the Prophet, Jesus, of whom is of that Seed along with the heirs, Those One in Christ.

I never asked you to be a fan of me, for of such I do not care, I simply care for the Bible, the History and anything pertaining to such as well as God's Law, and I care for those who are oppressed and or other as well as those of my own people who do suffer. Other than that, I simply corrected you on Abraham and you responded by saying something as if what he had done was a selfish act when it was his reasoning and his knowledge of the land that caused him to be in such a position to begin with, and this is not the first time, and now when we have a verse of which you quoted that speaks in direct references to the Promised Seed in attempt to use salvation vs. what Bible spoke on about the church, is obscene nor have you really poured the actual context itself, but at least you make the effort in knowing what One in Christ means but fail to see that it is direct in what is spoken of Salvation for both men and women, no talk about religious leadership in anything he has said in that passage alone.

You also didn't show much kindness to the truth about Adam and Eve, even when corrected in that domain also.

And please, if you really cared about Abraham, what you said many times before would not have been in an attempt to be against him, now that, is being hypocritical.

With that of which amounts here, even when it comes to the church itself, you are as you always have been and choose to be.

Therefore, what Jesus has entrusted, cannot be changed. He is the Firstborn out of the dead, The Firstfruits of the New Creation, the Cornerstone of the church of which he is the foundation of, he is the head of the church and has given he ability to the church to bind and loosen, for the people make up the church and under him they abide by this and they abide by not only his command, but in total religious servitude in God is Father of whom such ones give praise and service to.

1 hour ago, Srecko Sostar said:

pick for yourself what you like more

The truth and nothing but the truth, and always the truth that comes from the Bible and the History of the early church in Christendom and nothing but this truth. At least such is accurate, in this sense rather that fabrications like hydro or that of thinking a registry is an indication owning something when it is pretty much nothing more than a institution census.

That being said, I have told you, just as I have told Witness, go do the research of the History of the Church, and learn it, mainly in God's view, what Jesus entrusted and what Apostle Paul had said, for he spoke of creation for a reason regards to how the church has been structured as well as the family.

1 hour ago, Srecko Sostar said:

i think how you are not entitled do hear more privileged information then I already said  in public, details about. So i will not tell a "lie", "half truth", "white lie" or "misleading information", but "be in silence" and suffer consequences (verbal persecution) of such decision :)))))   

Speaking the truth is not entitlement nor is a privilege. There are many people around the world, even those of whom I met, those sick, those poor, those lost, who make the effort to actually read and understand their Bible, for as I had said to you before, better to be close to and or have the truth rather than be far from it. If you do not even know the history of the church, let alone the history of the Bible, how can you speak to such persons? How can you refute the accursed? And the list goes on.

That being said, you have and always have come upon as a cryptic individual, mysterious at times, but at the same time even when corrected, you still dwell on feelings and opinions rather than what the Bible says itself, and when something has been pointed out as a lie it vanishes and should it be brought up for such of what you profess ends up being false and or untrue, other times a showy nature of not understanding something and thinking differently of what is written, even outside of the bible somethings mention by you is seen as unfounded, and well, we know how that turned out and in some situation you continue to egg on this and show some flaws in some responses, and you tend to contradict yourself at times, which is evident.

But it seems even when someone speaks the truth, for you, and majority of others, it goes into one ear and leaves out the other.

That being said, clearly you have not read the brief detail of what was stated in page 2, therefore, it shows that someone people are either ignorant or unaware of the history of the church in ancient Bible times and such ones will try and attempt to use Salvation passages (of which had seen and refuted nearly 2 decades now) to make claim to something that is unrelated.

To make it brief so you better understand:

The structured is, and has been and forever will be as it were. Adam was created first, Eve came later on and is second, therefore we have the first man and woman. The family had always been Structured as man, woman, child, which in turn when the churches were a thing in biblical times, the church, physically, had all persons, young and old, but because the head of the Christ is God for he had made Adam and Eve, and that the Christ is the head of the church, we see what Paul had stressed in regards of said structured in terms of leadership in the church under the Christ. From religious leaders of authority, to servants, ministers and teachers, to members and converts and we see Paul even speaking of men of authority and to which position such ones take in the church.

Even though women cannot and will not be religious leaders, their role in the church is not significant, for it still impacts the church because the church is the people and that community of people build themselves up. They help in the ministry, they teach, they question and answer, they pray and a list of other things, women were included in the day of Pentecost as well for they too take part in the gospel preaching and converting people for baptism in the church and such ones uphold God's Law with total seriousness, hence why the head covering is very important. Both men of any age, sex or race are ALL under and in union with Christ because Salvation is not for one person or a nation, it is for all, hence the New Covenant, for we know because of Abraham, Jesus came to be for he was of this promise, and his heirs, those selected for Priesthood that is neither male or female and until he returns, His church of which He has built will remain intact by those who hold true to Scripture and not try to change it in any way shape or form for any many who speaks differently and or teaches and practices something else that, let him be accursed.

Know this, real Christian men and women know this, and if we want to those some more logs into the blaze, Jews know this, Muslims know this, Agnostics know this and a list of other people, whoa re we to change what God has set up in terms of his purpose and will? The answer should be, no one is to do such a thing.

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12 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Could not a Prophetess also be a housemaid? 

I assume they have to work for a living.

Paul; an apostle, prophet, leader, teacher, healer, and comforter. (1 Cor 12:27-31) You’d think being a tentmaker would have gone to his head. 

 

 

He called himself a “bondservant of the Lord” (Gal 1:10; Rom 1:1; Phil 1:1…) which, by the way, is similar to Strong’s definition for “menservants” in Acts 2:18

 slave, bondman,  metaph., one who gives himself up to another's will those whose service is used by Christ in extending and advancing his cause among men

“handmaidens” in Strong’s:  a female slave, involuntarily or voluntarily.  Bondmaid. One who worships God and submits to him.

Mary called herself “the maidservant of the Lord”.  Luke 1:38

 

For He has regarded the lowly state of His maidservant; For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed.  Luke 1:48

Acts 2:18 - And on My menservants and on My maidservants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days;
And they shall prophesy.

These “servants” belonged to Christ; both men and women, as bondservants of the Lord.

You were bought with a price. Don’t become bondservants of men.  1 Cor 7:23 WEB

Though the Lord is on high, Yet He regards the lowly; But the proud He knows from afar. Ps 138:6

God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.  James 4:6

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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21 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Could not a Prophetess also be a housemaid? 

I assume they have to work for a living.

Offering Alms to Monks

The first Buddhist monks did not build monasteries. Instead, they were homeless mendicants who begged for all their food. Their only possessions were their robe and begging bowl.

Today, in many predominately Theravada countries like Thailand, monks still rely on receiving alms for most of their food. The monks leave the monasteries early in the morning. They walk single file, oldest first, carrying their alms bowls in front of them. Laypeople wait for them, sometimes kneeling, and place food, flowers or incense sticks in the bowls. Women must be careful not to touch the monks.

The monks do not speak, even to say thank you. The giving of alms is not thought of as charity. The giving and receiving of alms create a spiritual connection between the monastic and lay communities. Laypeople have a responsibility to support the monks physically, and the monks have a responsibility to support the community spiritually.

....

It is a common practice in Zen to make food offerings to the hungry ghosts. During formal meals during sesshin, an offering bowl will be passed or brought to each person about to partake of the meal. Everyone takes a small piece of food from his bowl, touches it to the forehead, and places it in the offering bowl. The bowl is then ceremonially placed on the altar.

Hungry ghosts represent all of our greed and thirst and clinging, which bind us to our sorrows and disappointments. By giving away something that we crave, we unbind ourselves from our own clinging and neediness to think of others.

source: https://www.thoughtco.com/offering-food-buddhist-rituals-and-traditions-449750

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@Srecko Sostar Granted we are talking about Prophetess, this is unrelated. What I can say, for someone who has visited Thailand several times, monks indeed take up Alms, but since the change of the times, they take and receive other things, especially the ones you find in Maha Sarakham.

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I will leave it as this should anyone say otherwise when clearly such ones are at fault because it seems people do not understand what the Bible says on this matter, or just either confused and or ignorant, for such people think they could get away with the very cake they made and attempt to eat it too, but be assured, that cake will be slapped out of their greased hands before even the frosting touches their lips - a waste yes, but they must learn to lay off the sweets that will only hinder them in the long run.

Does the Bible allow women to serve as senior pastors over a

congregation or is this a role that is reserved only for men?

What people tend to do:

They are very appealing to culture regarding women who are leading in areas of politics or on the job and the corporate space and all sorts of other places in today's current culture, what they fail to see of which is indeed a danger equally such to the church in terms of leadership and authority, not taking into account of what the Bible has to say.

They're also open to and appeal towards experience, for some will say their pastor is a woman of religious leadership, pours on to them and they say she has the gift of pastoring and preaching way better than most of the men that they know The danger here is that experience, which stems from the mainstream and New Aged ones, is not always consistent with what the Bible has to say.

Some Facts about Women in the Bible:

[1] Biblical Fact

Women have and always will play an extremely significant role in advancing God’s Kingdom and there are several examples of this in the Greek New Testament.

[A]

Although already addressed, it will be very brief: Priscilla along with her husband Aquila taking aside a man named Apollos, traveling evangelists at the time and correcting his theology in teaching him sound and correct Biblical Doctrine.

 

We see in The Gospel of Luke 8:2, 3 that Jesus himself mentioned several women that supported him greatly in the ministry.

[C]

Apostle Paul in Romans chapter 16:1-16 listed about 16 people and about 10 of them at least were women who strongly supported him in his ministry in addition to what can be read in Acts 21 (brief since it has been mentioned), we see that Philip had four unmarried daughters all of whom were prophesying or speaking forth the Word of God, as well as in 1 Corinthians 11:5, Apostle Paul allows and even encourages women to pray and to prophesy publicly and or speak in the church for these reasons and others.

Some will attempt to make a very strong case for women being able to speak or preach or share or whatever you want to call it,  publicly in the church, but they fail miserably to assume that a women who do such things can and or are able to be religious leaders of authority within the church when such has not been expressed by even the women in the Bible.

[2] Biblical Fact

Within the church, two different roles does not diminishing of one's value whatsoever. In the Scriptures, it is very clear that God is a God of Order, in other words, God has set up certain orders in the home (The Structure of the Family), and He has set up certain orders in church (The Structure of the Church).

We look at the home, the family, for there is clearly a distinction between men's role as a husband and also the woman's role as a wife but this does not in any way shape or form make the woman less important than the man just because she serves in a different role, function, and or capacity - we also we look at God the Father, for we know below him is Jesus and the Angels and they submit to God and we know, how in subjection, they function.

The Bible supports that not just women but people in general have a different role different function, mainly when we take into account the church but in no way because they have a different role or different gifts or whatever does not equal to that of diminishing of one’s value in their contribution to the ministry, of which is a core component to the church itself, practiced by those in the Spiritual House.

[3] Biblical Fact

There are no known women pastors in the Greek New Testament. Period. We do not see any examples of women leading, overseeing, and or shepherding a flock of people, having authority of leadership in the church.

Some people will make attempt to go jump all the way back to the Hebrew Old Testament and bring up Prophetess Miriam or Deborah. This is where we must be very careful and clearly those who think otherwise are not doing the best of being cautious and being revealed to be twisting Scripture in regards to their own feelings and opinions. They fail in this sense because they do not know and or remain totally ignorant, for instance, let’s focus on Prophetess Deborah, she was she was a Judge over The Nation of Israel, not a pastor or religious leader of authority over church, locally or not, therefore we should not being attempt to use Prophetess Deborah in order to push an accursed practice or tradition of women leadership within and over a church.

For people like this will try to use an example from the Hebrew Old Testament to try to prove something that's going on in the Greek New Testament regarding the church, this kind of action is to what some will say this is a Biblical Violation and those who say that have every strong reason to say such because it is true. In the Hebrew Old Testament, God was dealing specifically with the Nation of Israel, we do not want to look at the Nation of Israel, for we want to look at how God is setting up the church in terms of leadership as seen in the Greek New Testament regarding the church.

[4] Biblical Fact

The Messiah/Christ, Jesus, selected only men to serve as his Apostles and or to establish the leadership of the Greek New Testament church, for it is said by some that by means of God's perfect Will, men take the leadership role of overseeing the local church. Apostle Paul, of whom addressed the roles of religious position by those of authority also referred to each role in identification of one who is a male (man) - of which will be addressed below.

[5] Biblical Fact

There are passages of Scripture in the Greek New Testament that suggest that the role of higher and or senior pastor is reserved primarily for men for instance 1 Timothy 3 gives the qualifications of anyone who wants to be an overseer or an elder or a pastor of a church so when you look at 1 Timothy chapter 3, it is very clear that as you go through that chapter itself, Apostle Paul, as is briefly mentioned in Biblical Fact 4, is using specifically and exclusively the Male Pronoun.

Qualifications for Overseers

[1] The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task. [2] Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, [3] not a drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. [4] He must manage his own household well, with all dignity keeping his children submissive, [5] for if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he care for God's church? [6] He must not be a recent convert, or he may become puffed up with conceit and fall into the condemnation of the devil. [7] Moreover, he must be well thought of by outsiders, so that he may not fall into disgrace, into a snare of the devil.

And so this passage in and of itself suggest that God has reserved the role of religious leadership of authority, in this case a higher and or senior pastor, once again, specifically for men.

Within the same point the passage, the most strongest passage in this regard in the entirety of the Greek New Testament is 1 Timothy 2:11-14. I have already made mention to this passage in full context, clearly one that is being ignored here because it is a very strong one, as it is with anyone who speaks on this subject.

For it reads:

  • 1 Timothy 2:11-14 – (11) Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. (12) I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. (13) For Adam was formed first, then Eve; (14) and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.

Some will say this is of Paul's own opinion, that he Paul a distinction between his own opinion, and one derived from God's Holy Spirit and they will bring up 1 Corinthians 7:6, 25, and 40 as seen in page 1 of this thread. As we can see here, Paul in this passage above was not speaking of The Unmarried and the Widowed in this passage, nor was he speaking about Principles of Marriage for everything mentioned in the verse above (1 Timothy 2:11-14), not of which not even in connection with the verse in Timoty, the actual references will be mentioned below in Green:

  • 1 Corinthians 11:8, 14:34
  • 1 Tim. 2:10
  • Titus 2:3-5
  • Genesis 2:7, 22, 3:6, 13, 16, 20
  • 2 Corinthians 11:3

I invite anyone who reads to look at the cross-references for themselves to see the verses mention are indeed true to this passage vs. those who make the claim such is an opinion of Paul when everything he has said in 1 Timothy 12:11-14 has a reason and it points to one thing.

Now, in terms of church leadership, Apostle Paul goes back to Creation (hence the mention of Adam and Eve), for he is in no way shape or form speaking of anything of culture, or as we can see nothing in terms of widows and or marriages, for we know that Paul was the one to be direct and specific with the churches in his Epistles/Letters.

Apostle Paul goes back to Creation because it is something that always was and always will be, Apostle Paul states that a man was created first and the woman was created second; to be a helpmate/helper for the man. Due to this, it has led people to believe that because Apostle Paul does go all the way back to Creation because this is God's Order, that this is God's Will for leadership within the Greek New Testament church.

Finally there's another, and yet, passive Scripture in this regard, 1 Corinthians 14:34, 35

(34) the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. (35) If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church.

of which Apostle Paul was dealing with a very problematic issue going on in the City of Corinth,of which will be address all the way down below.

[6] Biblical Fact

Women can possess The Spiritual Gift of teaching, shepherding, ministering , prophesying publicly, etc. without necessarily serving in any religious leadership of authority. She may have the Spiritual Gift of being able to oversee to lead to shepherd to rebuke to hold people accountable to care for a group of people but not necessarily being called to lead a group of men or an entire church, for instance she may feel the calling to shepherd or prophesy publicly to, minister to others, perhaps women's group or ministering to children and or youth, or some other type of ministry where she is able to speak Wisdom into people's lives even on a greater level than a man could ever do. It is also possible that a woman could possess a stronger Gift of speaking, preaching and pastoring than a man can, of which no one is making an absurd argument against in which women do many things way better than men do, for in respects to context, the Bible encourages women to use these particular Gifts. and women do take examples of which can be found in passages like Proverbs 31:10-31.

Some Common Objections regarding

leadership roles of authority among other things

 [Claim 1]: No Education, No Leadership

People will make the claim that women are not permitted to be religious leaders of authority because in The Greek New Testament women were not educated enough to be religious leaders.

[The Response]: The issue with that is that nowhere in the Greek New Testament does it suggest or even stresses such regarding education as a prerequisite for people being able to serve in a particular role in the church. For if some want to make such a claim, they will also have to speak on behalf of others, even men, such as the Disciples, and others, who had followed Jesus, all and each on their level of intelligence and expertise differ from one another. It is easy to point one who speaks deceit in their claim in this regard.

[Claim 2]: Those pushing the old Galatians 3:28 Card

People will point to Galatians 3:28 which reads:

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

They will continue, even argue that this is legitimate proof that there is no distinction anymore between men and women, for men should be able to do everything women can do and women should be able to everything that men can do, vice versa as with other things deemed unfounded.

[The Response]: These types of people take that Scripture, Galatians 3:28, way out of context. And as to what is the actual, the true context that puts the false one to shame? It is very simple, so simple even a child is able to comprehend the truth out of the very lie professed by others. The actual and true, solidified context of this passage is talking about: Salvation (hence Being One In [or In Union with] Christ). For in terms of Salvation, or rather Being One or In Union with Christ -  race, sex, free or slave,, young, old, whatever, etc. being one with Christ indicates that both men and women can be saved for Salvation is for the both of them, as is of mankind who accepts what is true.

In regards to the time of Paul, Greeks can be saved, slaves can be saved, Jews can be saved, etc. there is no distinction between who can come to a relationship with Jesus Christ and in turn, with God the Father.

So, this verse, Galatians 3:28, is not talking in any way shape or form about church leadership authority whatsoever.

[Claim 3]: Women Prophesying

People will make the claim that women are spoken of to have been prophesying, in an attempt to make it seem as though because they can do as such, they can be leaders in the church.

[The Response]: The true of the matter is any references to men or women prophesying, especially in regards to EVERYTHING written by Apostle Paul, it points back to speaking publicly, granted of which took place immediately after Pentecost: preaching the gospel, speaking of God’s Kingdom, talk about the Messianic Age of Christ returning (very reason why today’s Samaritans and several others wait for Him to return). All of what has taken place all equating to the Great Commission itself, and eventually there will be a time of ceasing the spreading of the gospel, and the End will most indeed come.

More information can be found here: https://biblehub.com/greek/4395.htm

[Claim 4]: The Times have changed, the people have changed, and the church must change.

[The Response]: The thing is, you cannot change the church. It is one thing for the church to learn and adapt as well as apply as they progress, but the core functions of the church cannot be touched. As we speak, the mainstream is doing the opposite and a whole lot of things even to the point where levels of inappropriate behavior and clothing are allowed in the church. All and all, such ones are very open and accepting of religious leaders and pastors who are indeed women, the factor of the matter is such ones put into application of their view of the church rather than the Bible itself.

[Claim 5]: Prophetess Deborah

Most people speak of Deborah’s leadership of authority and make this a claim of which women can lead the church.

 [The Response]: As addressed in the evidence above, Prophetess Deborah was a Judge of the Nation of Israel, not a church, of which we see many churches of them solely in the Greek New Testament. Another factor is the Temples of Old, usually sons and Fathers were the ones to be of Priesthood of such, an example would be Aaron, or perhaps Samuel.

[Claim 6]: Being Silent

Most people among the most extreme believe that a women should not speak at all and they should keep silent entirely inside the church, using Apostle Paul’s words for the wrong reasons.

Others will push the idea that this passage does not exist, but these same people never read a manuscript or two that defeats their claim.

Other know this passage is there and pretends it does not exist and or they lack to see what Paul was addressing in Corinth.

Others will direct this verse for women only, granted it does speak of them, but several verses back it also speaks of men to be silent also - again, Paul was trying to instruct and buildup The Church of Corinth for they were dealing with a great deal of problems.

[The Response]: The passage in question does indeed say women should be silent, however, if anyone understood the context of this passage, they’d realize that it is due to disorderly conduct that was taking place in The Church of Corinth. Those in Corinth succumb to conduct that is not Christian like. The Church of Corinth had chaos and lack of order, and such was running rampant within the confines of the church, hence verse 33. Everyone in the church was participating with whatever expression they desired, whenever they desired, as loudly as they desired. Those with the Gift of Tongues were speaking simultaneously, and no one was concerned with interpreting what was being said. Those with a revelation from God were shouting out randomly, even if what was said could not be heard above, and apparently no one was evaluating what was being offered as prophecy. The church meetings were not appealing for the main stage of what is going on is utter chaos, and no one was being instructed as if it is like a kindergarten class with no teacher and or any supervisor, moreover, we see examples of what is going on in verses 5, 12, and 19. Apostle Paul had a solution, he instructs a number of people to be silent at a certain time and under certain conditions and speaks in a way to buildup the church (1 Corinthians 14:27-28a, 29-31a, 34-35). So it is absurd for any man to use and twist a passage for gain, mainly this one in an attempt to totally silence women in the church when no chaotic conduct is being done by them in the church.

That being said, those who think otherwise need to learn and actually pay attention to what the small letters in the Bible actually points to, for they are there for a reason. For it is easy for one to have the mindset of the mainstream and think they can get away with speaking of things that is entirely different as to what the Bible says, and such ones have to learn what putting context is, you cannot mix bad milk with good milk.

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1 hour ago, Space Merchant said:

[Claim 2]: Those pushing the old Galatians 3:28 Card

??? interesting name (Old Card) for bible verse and Bible book inspired by Spirit. Isn't whole Bible one context, not only one chapter or one book, or one Letter. Someone pushing this verse, someone pushing other verse. How can that be wrong? :)))

 

1 hour ago, Space Merchant said:

[Claim 6]: Being Silent

[The Response]: The passage in question does indeed say women should be silent, however, if anyone understood the context of this passage, they’d realize that it is due to disorderly conduct that was taking place in The Church of Corinth. Those in Corinth succumb to conduct that is not Christian like.

That is your understanding. They have (congregation) some kind of "inspired chaos". Paul in the beginning of chapter preferred more if some have gift of prophesies then gift of speaking language. But both gift are gifts of spirit and no one of those who was "inspired" (male or female) can not chooses what they personally like more and tell their wishes to Spirit and after heard the personal wish of person, Spirit change his mind and decide to give some other gift to that person. It is possible, but this comment is only for discussion about possibility here.   

Chapter said that all such "Inspired chaos" was happened when they assembled in church. So, it seems how Spirit himself was source of that "chaos". Imagine 50 person in your congregation. And suddenly all came under inspiration of Spirit, and all are so exciting to tell others what Spirit speaking to them. Is that wrong? How to stop Spirit of his power, and say, "hey dear Spirit, Paul said you have to wait with your manifestation because 10 brothers and sister already waiting in line  to get to the stage." :))

About your interpretation how "to be silence" is applied to the male also, not only for female. But CONTEXT is here:

  27 If any speak in a tongue, let there be only two or at most three, and each in turn, and let someone interpret. 28 But if there is no one to interpret, let each of them keep silent in church and speak to himself and to God. 

Only reason for KEEP SILENT is lack of INTERPRETER! (and this advice is only about if person have gift of speaking tongues) And according to Paul, even 2-3 person can speak in the same time.

Is that also something that is happening in congregation today? Are JW restoration have in program of meetings that 2-3 person speaking aloud in the same time. They should have if want be as it was first church in Corinth :)))  no matter if they today not speaks in tongues,  but if they want they can on International Conventions. :))

On the contrary advice  for the woman is this:  

34) the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. (35) If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church.

But what if Paul here using some other people idea of "silence"? What if this 2 verses is not HIS ADVICE how woman should behave in the church? But what if Paul only quoted (using same words, idea) that was came from some other people in this congregation? 

Verse 36 say:  36 Or did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only ones it has reached? 

Perhaps this people, leaders, elders? or whatever they have been, are addressed with this verse 36. What if Paul said; "You brothers as elders, in position of leaders of this congregation put command that woman can not participate in congregational activity, that they can not speak, ask questions, give own interpretation and understanding, asking why this why that .... And because of your view of woman in generally as second-class members, you put a regulation how all woman must be in silent while on meeting. Because of that I, Paul,  am asking you - Did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only ones it has reached?"   

NEXT: 34) the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says.

Please tell us WHAT LAW says also that Woman must be in silence in Congregational meetings? About what Law Paul has talking? Law of Moses or some other Law? What verse in Law of Moses? What verse in some other Law? Rabbinic Law, Roman Law, Greek Law?

 

Divisions in the Church

10 I appeal to you, brothers,1 by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree, and that there be no pdivisions among you, but that you be united qin the same mind and the same judgment. 11 For it has been reported to me by Chloe’s people that there is rquarreling among you, my brothers. 12 What I mean is that seach one of you says, “I follow Paul,” or “I follow tApollos,” or “I follow uCephas,” or “I follow Christ.” 

Chloe is woman, sister of the Corinth congregation, obviously in position of leading the church. And she has important contacts with Paul and with handling things in cong. 

Just opinion, as always :)) Nothing that must be established by the Law of the Media and Persia.

 

 

 

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11 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Just opinion, as always :)) Nothing that must be established by the Law of the Media and Persia.

 

It's a great opinion.  :)  

  • Thanks 1

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20 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

??? interesting name (Old Card) for bible verse and Bible book inspired by Spirit. Isn't whole Bible one context, not only one chapter or one book, or one Letter. Someone pushing this verse, someone pushing other verse. How can that be wrong? :)))

The Galatians 3:28 Card as is said in regards to those who attempt to defend religious leadership of women in the church. This verse has been brought up time and time again for decades and every time this claim, this little card that is under the sleeves of those who believe such are proven wrong.

We even see here that Witness and you fill the bill here and the both of you refuse to to see that, hence the response the both of you gave. What we all can agree with here is yes the verse speaks of being one in Christ, however, this verse has nothing to do with religious leadership, and using this verse, as many man many have done before the both of you, to make a stance on the changing of the church's structure, is the very thing Paul addresses the church to avoid in the Galatians chapter 1. Therefore, using this verse to make such a stance is silly when we see this passage speaks the very thing is is focused on.

But is is odd for you to be mentioning this verse when we have already seen you speak ill of Abraham, calling him selfish without even understanding of why he did what he did, mind you, this is coming from the same guy [you] who have alluded to before God has no issue, not being surprised with males or females changing their sex or the very fact God would have done something else if Abraham was left for dead. Come on now, Sostar, and I won't even link that information too because I know it will vanish the following day.

Now, as you can see I will not link your response, I will quote you because sometimes when I do link something it is gone the next day.

Anyways, the claims match up with what both you and Witness had said about the verse, and the facts of the response from actual sources says otherwise, so no, calling it an opinion will not help you here.

Sostar stated: This same Paul here said very advanced and almost innovative thought. He abolishes all the social divisions that are characteristic of the society in which they lives. I primarily think of Jewish society and religion as an indivisible part of the Jew people. Eliminates the difference on the basis of nationality. Eliminates the difference of status on a social scale caused by position or origin in society. Eliminates differences caused by belonging to sex, gender. (It not surprised if some talking how First Christians was the Religious Communist with the ideas of a classless, egalitarian society that shared their land and their other property and similar.)

There was nothing about social divisions whatsoever. Galatians had both the Jews and the Gentiles who both believed in the same thing, and at the time because of their differences they were not normally keen on someone not of their own being with them. This barrier has been broken because of them being One in Christ. It does not matter the sex, age, background, old, young, etc. They, are one in Christ for their is neither male or female,for they are the sharers of Abraham's Seed, that same seed you spoke of in regards of Abraham being selfish, hen you have been corrected when we can clearly see Abraham was not selfish and he did what he did for the Promise of what God said to him.

Hence why I said before to you, no Abraham, no Seed. No Seed, God's Promise is the very first among what he spoke of to be broken, thus shattering all foretellings of what is to come for nothing would have taken place in Bethlehem.

Unlike you, I don't see Abraham as a selfish man, and because of this, I totally agree with Apostle Paul in terms of Salvation, but seeing how Witness is egging you on here, I guess one could say the both of you may see him as such, but have the audacity to speak of Jesus in a good light.

All in all, Galatians 3:28 has nothing to do with religious leadership or authority regarding women, it is not even talking about men here either, it simply points to and makes a strong indication, in true context of Salvation, for being saved by means of Salvation means being One in Christ, in Union with the Christ and in turn The Christ is the only way to the Father, YHWH God who is the true El Shaddai.

Granted of how Witness agrees with you, let alone the chapter, that is enough proof there to even show you of what the passage as a whole in context is conveying here.

I will do you a favor and post it for you as with the title of where the verse is located under:

[The Law and the Promise] >>>> HERE

Visual for C/P: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians+3&version=ESV

20 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

That is your understanding. They have (congregation) some kind of "inspired chaos". Paul in the beginning of chapter preferred more if some have gift of prophesies then gift of speaking language. But both gift are gifts of spirit and no one of those who was "inspired" (male or female) can not chooses what they personally like more and tell their wishes to Spirit and after heard the personal wish of person, Spirit change his mind and decide to give some other gift to that person. It is possible, but this comment is only for discussion about possibility here.   

Not really, the response came from actual facts, not of opinion and or other. Inspired Chaos and as to what makes you want to bring this up and not have anything say to back up such claim?

In the Church of Corinth, there were things that were deemed problematic, which resulted in Apostle Paul writing a letter to them to build them up so they do things accordingly, in fact, the very history of the chaos going on in the Church of Corinth can be read, and yes, historical facts, something you cannot grasp that easily even when it is presented to you in your face. If you have not noticed, I spoke of the very subject in the chapter's passage itself: Orderly Worship, and because of what can be read and the references that is directly pointing to it, historical facts gave this title of the church: The Troubled Church. But what to expect from a man who is shown to be lacking in biblical and church history? What to even say of a man who is given the information, but simply ignores it? Because such a man does not want to be seen as wrong.

Now, it is already know that when Apostle Paul was  in Ephesus, he had learned about the problems that came about in the new church in Corinthians and because of this, he wrote this letter to instruct them on how to deal with these problems. Even in today's day and age, the church continue to face many of these same problems, many centuries after Apostle Paul wrote this letter and this is the very reason why when instruction is to be used in disciplinary action, this passage is often used to correct the wrongs that rise among the church itself.

If you truly do not have any idea of why Apostle Paul was instructing the Church of Corinth, I suggest you take a good read at every cross-reference in this chapter from start to finish, or simply read from chapter 12 to 14 and there you will see the context in full, as in, The church was taught and they listen, but over time they have succumb to division and badness,jealously and abusing of the gifts, and when this had be discovered, this prompt Paul to speak to instruct those in Corinth to cease the chaos going about in the church of which is deemed problematic. Only later on we see that Apostle Paul's instruction has been accepted and the church actually made the attempt when being accepting of Paul's critical instruction.

The question is, how in Lord's name did you miss that?

For if you actually took the time to read both First and Second Epistles, you'd realized that, the shock here is your friend didn't point that out to you in regards to the Church of Corinth. This information is elementary, for even the most novice of Theologians can see this for themselves.

No, there is no possibility, because anyone can see of such ones in the church abusing the gifts, causing division, influence of sin, prideful behavior and a list of other things, this is why anyone bringing up facts in regards to The Church of Corinth will state that the Church is Troubled, Chaos filled, Divided, Problematic, and or in need of being disciplined and or instructed.

If sin is among the people, or ill practices regarding abusing the gifts, it is obvious Apostle Paul will respond, for there was a reason behind this letter.

20 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

About your interpretation how "to be silence" is applied to the male also, not only for female. But CONTEXT is here:

  27 If any speak in a tongue, let there be only two or at most three, and each in turn, and let someone interpret. 28 But if there is no one to interpret, let each of them keep silent in church and speak to himself and to God. 

These are merely facts from a source. I never stated anywhere that a women is to be 100% silent in a church whatsoever. The women in Corinth were silent due to the very fact a majority of them were taking part in those among the divided doing bad practices in the church, for if you had read the Epistles of Paul, you'd realize that. If I recall, it was only you who spoke of silence in a literal sense, for what I stree is that religious leadership is something that a women should not do because it goes in accordance with what Paul brought up in terms of reason. Witness called it an opinion, but the cross-references to Paul's statement says otherwise.

20 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Only reason for KEEP SILENT is lack of INTERPRETER! (and this advice is only about if person have gift of speaking tongues) And according to Paul, even 2-3 person can speak in the same time.

Little Srecko, little Screko, allow me to correct you because like that of a child who has never been disciplined, you continue to dwell on something that is clearly not in the right. You do not see what this verse conveys and this small claim of yours shows it.

We already know about what took place in Pentecost, the gifts, and one among these gifts enabled Jews coming from more than a dozen different lands to hear God's Word in  a language of their own as seen in Acts 2:4-11. We later see that such was used for the Edification of the Church. That is why Apostle Paul stressed that no one should speak in a strange tongue, but rather, have an interpreter [to "him" the glossolalist] be present so that all could benefit from it, otherwise, the man is to be silent, hence the very connection to 1 Cor. 14:28. If that isn't enough for you, simply look the verse in biblehub, pick any translation, since you tend to go for many colorful flavors that ails you, as you have done in the past.

This also furthermore the point from the very fact itself, hence why it can be said the church in Corinth was indeed problematic, and so, instruction was given by Paul.

And what of 1 Corinthians 14:27 (14:5) and 29 (Acts 13:1)? The reason why men are to be silence in Corinth is already known, granted you never gave the context as to why this is, it is safe to say not even you understood it at first yourself, mainly with some of the comments you have made on this topic alone. Other than that, why care for these 2 verses now when you ignored them before?

20 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Is that also something that is happening in congregation today? Are JW restoration have in program of meetings that 2-3 person speaking aloud in the same time. They should have if want be as it was first church in Corinth :)))  no matter if they today not speaks in tongues,  but if they want they can on International Conventions. :))

Like I told you before, the Jehovah's Witnesses or the Watchtower cannot say you here, and you only proven yourself to be incorrect, granted that anyone even to Theologians know the history of Restorationist.

for last I recall, and according to the very history of the Apostolic age and EVERY Christian that came from the Great Awakening who are Restorationist, do not influence sin, they do not go about causing a division in the church for ill means, granted that they do not follow the Creed,but rather, that of the Apostolic Age and a whole list of other things.

I instructed you on the Apostolic Age before and here we see you bring up Restrationist when you have no idea of the history.

I can give you a hint though, those of the Apostolic Age are in connection with one church, nothing in regards to the Galatians, or the Corinthians, granted they all share the same beliefs, but there is a very famous passage regarding the church built 2,000 years ago. I leave that with you as homework because you have failed several times before, even with a historical information given to you several times before, hence, the original church did not begin in Corinth, for Corinth was just an extension of that.

Other than that, this puts what Gone Away had spoken of you elsewhere, as in comparing with your statement on this response and what you said on the previous page, seems kind of convoluted in a ploy to attempt something that is unknown to us, but known to you. The instruction Paul profess to the Corinth is used, however, anyone who knows the history of where they trace themselves back to.

But I do invite you to speak on apostolic succession on another occasion, apparently it is not the time and place here for such.

20 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

On the contrary advice  for the woman is this:  

34) the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. (35) If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church.

And? Your point?

20 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

But what if Paul here using some other people idea of "silence"? What if this 2 verses is not HIS ADVICE how woman should behave in the church? But what if Paul only quoted (using same words, idea) that was came from some other people in this congregation? 

Actually, since Apostle Paul was addressing the Church of Corinth after discovering of what is taking place, he was saying exactly what he met here.

There is no 2 different silence and or any idea of silence, so don't make such a claim of which you cannot back up. The Strong's pretty much tells you in this regard: https://biblehub.com/greek/4601.htm

It is a G 4601 by the way.

He speaks of the women being silent here due to the very issues deemed problematic taking place in the Church of Corinth, as I have said before, there is the facts, which are true, an the evidence, which are also true, of which you can even find and read in the Bible - that is, if you want to bird your way out of this one, I would not really be surprised, as you have done countless times.

Granted he is writing a letter to discipline and instruct, advising them to build themselves up and backing away from mixing what they did practice with what is bad, then yes. I would not call it his own advice, you are not a Sunni Muslim, so do not make that claim, but rather him being the very one to speak far more in tongues than the people of Corinth, having more experience and the like, the very one who has the Spirit that has been poured to him, is instructing the church.

20 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Verse 36 say:  36 Or did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only ones it has reached? 

Perhaps this people, leaders, elders? or whatever they have been, are addressed with this verse 36. What if Paul said; "You brothers as elders, in position of leaders of this congregation put command that woman can not participate in congregational activity, that they can not speak, ask questions, give own interpretation and understanding, asking why this why that .... And because of your view of woman in generally as second-class members, you put a regulation how all woman must be in silent while on meeting. Because of that I, Paul,  am asking you - Did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only ones it has reached?"   

And? And what is the point you are trying to make by stopping at just 36? Continue reading, Sostar.

Apostle Paul was addressing those among the divided who were doing what they were not suppose to be doing. Also the following verses even addresses the conclusion to solidified what Paul is conveying regarding the church.

20 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

NEXT: 34) the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says.

Please tell us WHAT LAW says also that Woman must be in silence in Congregational meetings? About what Law Paul has talking? Law of Moses or some other Law? What verse in Law of Moses? What verse in some other Law? Rabbinic Law, Roman Law, Greek Law?

Once again, the immediate context is about Orderly Worship, in regards to the Church of Corinth, for nowhere it is stated of any church but the only the one being focused here, the one in Corinth of which Paul sent word of instruction.

As for the Law, in Paul's response to the Corinthians by means of a letter, he is referencing to the teaching of which is even suggested by Scholars in regards to The Genesis Creation narratives when he had this in mind, with the implications for Order and propriety in relationships between men and women. Furthermore, in what Paul had profess points to several verses, granted that Paul is the type to speak in direct of scripture as he have in his other writings. Genesis 3:16 being one some will point to as well as Paul's use of general terms the law includes Isaiah 3:12 or other similar principles in connection with what he had said, this is the same cause that can be said of Simon Peter who did somewhat of the same thing, hence that the role of submission of wives to husbands and the general male leadership role principles are moral laws of God’s nature (or God's Purpose and Will,as well as Order), which cannot be changed. Other verses that pertain to verse 34 alone in regards to "as the Law also says", according to Paul:1 Corinthians 11:5, 15, 14:21, 35, Ephesians 5:22, 1 Timothy 2:11, 12, 1 Peter 3:1. Scholarly info is also a suggested read, should you choose to.

Now, when some in the church had a message by means of teaching to give to the church it was a word of prophecy in public. Any situation some such message was given it had to be tested and evaluated against Scripture to make sure that it was valid and true. When it was validated it would be considered authoritative and in a sense binding to those who heard it.

The Bible explains in several places are marriages are to work in loving submission to each-other, but with the husband having the responsibility of headship, furthermore, while a husband may consult his wife and reach a decision together, ultimately he has the burden of being responsible for the final choices made.

In this context of this particular church, this means that men have the responsibility of evaluating, approving and delivering teaching to the whole body - once again, of what the focus is, religious leadership of authority within the church, priestly office, etc. Since women do cannot have such authoritative responsibility, they are asked not to be the ones voicing concerns or pronouncing judgement when certain matters arise. One has to take into account that Apostle Paul did not restrict women from praying or even prophesying publicly themselves as seen in 1 Corinthians 11:5 and Acts 2:17. This is purely an issue of headship and authority, which the Law also spoke to rather than an edict against speaking in a church and participating in other ways.

Some women are still bounded by such restrictions, for this would primarily be the father who is responsible for daughters until they are given over to a husband, but a brother or other family relation could play a similar role.

So it is no surprise Apostle Paul said what he said to the women in Corinth.

But here we see you speaking as if you think he is addressing all churches when we see him speaking about only one in this regard.

20 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Divisions in the Church

10 I appeal to you, brothers,1 by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree, and that there be no pdivisions among you, but that you be united qin the same mind and the same judgment. 11 For it has been reported to me by Chloe’s people that there is rquarreling among you, my brothers. 12 What I mean is that seach one of you says, “I follow Paul,” or “I follow tApollos,” or “I follow uCephas,” or “I follow Christ.” 

And? You think a guy who has read every account on women of the bible would not have known about Chloe? Everyone knows who she is, and she is only address once - literally. And she is addressed in 1 Corinthians 1:11.

20 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Chloe is woman, sister of the Corinth congregation, obviously in position of leading the church. And she has important contacts with Paul and with handling things in cong. 

No, Chloe is not a religious leader in Corinth, the fact you even said that makes shows that what you just said is hypocrisy, an actual lie for that matter that is perhaps greater than your other ones, granted the very weight of the evidence is as big as the Sun compared to your claim that is very disturbing. No one has ever in their lifetime and or practice would even consider such of what you have address just now and that my friend, is sickening and a showy remark of someone who clearly does not understand his Bible.

To be very brief, Chloe was living among her household and had only contacted Paul via letter to inform him of what the Church of Corinth is doing, again, chaos, if it got a woman such as her to write, than you'd realize the problem, and it points to your contradiction, Sostar. We later find out that Paul discovers and goes about his way to handle the situation with success. Because Chloe and her household were vigilante and aware of the division and practices of that church and taking action, she was indeed a peace maker, granted in biblical historic accounts, she is known as a peace keeper just for this action alone to which she was only addressed once. Like I told you before, there are many women in the Bible who are indeed heroes.

Chloe is a woman through a household of which Apostle Paul received reports concerning the issues existing in the church of the Corinthians, hence the only verse of which the House of Chloe was even mentioned 1 Corinthians 1:11. Although Apostle Paul’s Epistle does not state, anywhere, that Chloe was a Christian living in Corinth or Ephesus, moreover, in view of the Apostle’s reference to this household by name (The House of Chloe), evidently at least some members of the home, either family members or slaves, were Christians known to the Corinthians.

Paul soon addresses quarreling within the church of the Corinthians and was enabled to do so due to Chloe’s people, her household, who had reported those quarrels to Paul. These reports were not rumors and or of gossip either, they were an attempt to get Paul’s help in resolving a problem within the church, hence the discovery by Paul of what was taking place. The source of the quarrel is revealed to be the people were divided as well as their issue with who should be in Pastoral Office. We can see the division when it is said by some that they:

  • I follow Paul
  • I follow Peter (or Cephas)
  • I follow Apollos
  • I follow Christ

Therefore, the Corinthians were segmenting themselves unnecessarily and wrongfully. We soon find out Apostle Paul's discovery led to a response, reminding them that Christ is not divided and that Jesus’ is the name under which all believers are saved and baptized, check out 1 Corinthians 1:12-16. He adds that the Christ had appointed him, Paul, to preach the good news of the gospel, but not with wisdom and eloquence, for the Christ be made powerless and or useless, empty of power.

In response to the concerns of Chloe’s household, Apostle Paul states that the Christ is the one who saves and that the power of the gospel is His power, see Romans 1:16. For Apostle Paul, Simon Peter, and Apollos were all preaching Christ’s message of the gospel. The believers should always follow Christ as the Shepherd, rather following men, whose eloquent words often create competition with one another and or those who clearly are not in application of Christ's message. Quarreling should not be among us who are baptized whom or what preacher is more gifted. Wisdom of a man is not the point of the gospel, but rather, the Christ’s work is what saves, is what redeems us, the people.

Chloe her household were aware enough to look and see for themselves the division occurring in the church. The actions of the Corinthians in their church, to put men who do not apply the teachings to be elevated above God and so they wrote to Apostle Paul asking for his help in order to resolve this matter. In seeking the assistance of the proper authority in the church (in their case, an Apostle, who just happens to be Paul).

That being said, Chloe was never a religious leader of any church, so do not make such a broken claim among claims. Chloe and her household were peacemakers, take a good look at Matthew 5:9 and understand what that means.

"Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God."

The irony is that the other guy didn't point this out, he agreed with your words every step of the way.

  • Other than that let's stick with this claim of yours, Sostar: Chloe is woman, sister of the Corinth congregation, obviously in position of leading the church. And she has important contacts with Paul and with handling things in cong. 
  • The Truth: The name appears only once in the New Testament, in 1 Corinthians 1:11 in the context of "the house of Chloe".
  • The Truth:  Chloe is only mention once and not even spoken of as a religious leader, as you claim > https://biblehub.com/greek/5514.htm

That being said, I advise you to go read, learn, and put into application in anything and everything regarding The First Epistle to the Corinthians, written by Apostle Paul

https://www.britannica.com/topic/The-Letter-of-Paul-to-the-Corinthians

You are going to need it, Srecko Sostar.

20 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Just opinion, as always :)) Nothing that must be established by the Law of the Media and Persia.

Read for the truth, man. Because you are obviously showing right now, and even before that you have no idea what is going on here. And that being said, nothing you have proven here in terms of religious leadership is even sound or clear, it is the opposite, cryptic and clearly not understanding of what even you yourself have said, hence the flaws.

Read up on the facts because those are solidified facts from the last comment, clearly such is not even in your league right now because you are still far from what the Bible says on many accounts, not just this one.

Click on those that are listed and go about doing the research, you have tools such as YouTube and Goggle and it has not stopped you before, why is it stopping you at this very moment? All in all,  perhaps you will learn something, but it is unlikely because you will respond in a way to be corrected, but hey, if a man loves to be corrected every time, so be it, this is not the first time I have discussed such a topic and or entered into one.

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6 hours ago, tromboneck said:

Proper? Sure. If she can do it while cooking, cleaning and pregnant and barefooted at the same time

Unfortunately his aim is to use the information from Pearl, which was not the first time, to address religious leadership, not realizing facts in regards to the church's history outs weights the claim. Moreover, some of the verses he had address do not even match up with references and or context, of which I pointed out in regards to an ill use of such, which has been addressed in Biblical Fact 5 above,for this fact originates from a message taken from a message some years ago.

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11 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

Genesis 3:16 being one some will point to as well as Paul's use 

What you like to prove with these verse? Do you want to prove how Hierarchy in male-female religious and other principles (God told this to Adam and Eve AFTER they were been exiled from Eden) is HIS original purpose for male and female creatures? God just stated what will generally be  status and how relationships will generally look between male and female in future society that is without God, but under control of devil. Dear Mr. Space, this kind of verse is kind of "Prophecy", kind of looking in future based on circumstances and insight in human, as perfect and imperfect human. We can tell here how God have seen the future of human society and tell just one statement about that. By no means He, as God, not giving here any Command about how must look hierarchy in family, in congregation, in society. He just see what will happen from now on, as result of expelling from Paradise (or Sin, as you wish).  

So as result of sin and imperfection male come to be ruler over female, generally.  

You said how "some will point as well as Paul's use".  Some Bible scholars, i assume, or your friends? Who are that some? Doctors? Professors of archaeology? Who ever they are, they have their opinions with more or less accuracy. So what? Would it be first time that educated and non educated people are wrong in conclusion? You and that some point how Paul must have in mind Genesis 3:16, but Paul not give his reference to Genesis 3:16 BUT to the LAW. Very clearly written. Why you want to make me to read something that is not written in this same verse? Do i have some dyslexia or vision problems and can not see the word Law in Genesis 3:16?

In this God's words you reading how His intention is/was  to regulate male-female relations and put male over female. But that is only your interpretation of Genesis 3:16 and nothing more. In period when all was Perfect, there is no single verse about God's plan that Adam have to control Eve. Read your Genesis chapters 1-3. Nothing about so called "theocratic order" and female place on position you suggest that exist from the Day of Creation. Counting how Adam was first and Eve was second telling nothing how God was made Adam Head of Eve. What verse in Genesis said such?

When talking to God, Adam did not say to God how Eve not respected him as husband and disobey what he told to her. No, he said: "The woman you put here with me"—she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it.”  This have no sound how Eve is second-class in hierarchy. She was there with him. Because God put her there and Adam was aware of that fact. 

Adam was also aware of command about ruling, but ruling over the animals and earth only. Not over the Eve! Here is also one of the reasons why he not acting in different manner, as Head who would reject or accept the idea (so how today the JW congregation would expect him to do so)  when Eve offer him the fruit. He was not in such position, or he not thinking of himself as in such position because, we see how  his answer to God say something else -"The woman you put here with me"

Again, i call you politely  to show Verse from the Law about this, because Paul said in his expose how "For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says." 

Ones again, Genesis 3:16 is not part of the Law.  :))))  , on the contrary "some will point" that this is Prophecy. 

 

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13 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

Isaiah 3:12 Youths oppress my people, women rule over them.

women rule over them

So, here in book of Isaiah, God has objection about woman who rule over man, but He was very satisfied with Deborah who served as military and legal leader for nation in book of Judges? Do you want suggesting something about JHVH and why he chose Deborah for leading position over all nation, over all males, elders, patriarchs? Do you have problem with that? Why would God brake his own principle about position of woman (according to some view on this matter) in Israel nation by appointing Deborah to fill an office of leader? Looks like there was no male at the moment to fill that need? I hope she wore a cover on her head  while in service. Or this also would be problem for some people?

She served as Military Leader. She served as Judge. God has not changed, as he himself claim. So, do you suggest how He made a mistake with Deborah? And decide that never again woman will be in position as judge alone, as judge with male partner or as judge above other male members?  

Or do you think that Samson, because he was male, was better Judge then Deborah?

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4 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

What you like to prove with these verse? Do you want to prove how Hierarchy in male-female religious and other principles (God told this to Adam and Eve AFTER they were been exiled from Eden) is HIS original purpose for male and female creatures? God just stated what will generally be  status and how relationships will generally look between male and female in future society that is without God, but under control of devil. Dear Mr. Space, this kind of verse is kind of "Prophecy", kind of looking in future based on circumstances and insight in human, as perfect and imperfect human. We can tell here how God have seen the future of human society and tell just one statement about that. By no means He, as God, not giving here any Command about how must look hierarchy in family, in congregation, in society. He just see what will happen from now on, as result of expelling from Paradise (or Sin, as you wish).  

It's not even my prove, it is of the Bible. I even told you, use ANY translation you want, all references for 1 Corinthians 14:34 point back to several verses, which Genesis 3:16 is included among those listed? It can easily be seen here:

Extended references point to that of the structure of the family.

I need not prove something that is already in motion, what I have only prove is what has always be and forever will be cannot be changed, for man cannot change the order of things.

Indeed, this is true, God did speak of this to Adam and Eve, but it did not stop anyone long after Adam and Eve to speak of something similar and or making a reference to it, the same can be said of Genesis 3:15, even thought you deem Abraham as selfish, this verse also is enough evidence of the Promise, in regards to the coming Prophet, known as the Christ.

That being said, have you even read the references for Genesis 3:16 itself?

That being said, it is no surprise to anyone who actually pays attention to the references in the Bible in regards to everything and or anything Apostle Paul says, like what was already addressed, God is a God of Order and what is set in motion cannot be changed, the very reason why Paul went back to Creation itself in major parts of each and every part of his work by means of his writings.

Indeed, so is verse 15, and we know that in regards to what Paul addresses, of Creation in which he put into application of the church, it is not a shock to anyone that Paul who even point to such, but apparently, it comes as a shock to you because you have proven yourself to never address any references to a verse, for instance you being in agreement now with Being One in Christ, but elsewhere you call Abraham, who was given the Promise of which is spoken of in Genesis, to be a selfish man.

And the evident mainstream attitude you profess here and all over the place shows this too, so such is already expected, as is the response.

You did show yourself to like Biblehub, how about you start using it now? Or is it the references a bit much for you, Sostar?

4 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

So as result of sin and imperfection male come to be ruler over female, generally.

Not quite. The Ancestral Original Sin did come from Adam and Eve, yes, but what Apostle Paul was conveying in a majority of his work is Creation. As stated by him, God created man first and later on, he created a woman, so there was indeed sometime in between thus making you wrong before when you stated both Adam and Eve were created at the same time. Paul, then addresses that Adam was never deceived, but the woman, Eve, had been deceived and became a transgressor, however, she will be kept safe through childbearing, provided she continues in faith, love and holiness along with soundness of mind, mind you, this was before The Church of Corinth went bonkers, as this can be seen in the First Epistle of Timothy, you know, the passage I kept pointing out that the both of you are not addressing properly. In the references it shows Paul was addressing Creation in application to the church, as well as the family, Husband, Wife, Offspring, and speaks of them in terms of roles, as he has with the church.

Other than that, your remark of imperfection contradicts what you have said some weeks ago, I will not link it because I know that will vanish, but just know that this has been said and it must be said.

4 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

You said how "some will point as well as Paul's use".  Some Bible scholars, i assume, or your friends? Who are that some? Doctors? Professors of archaeology? Who ever they are, they have their opinions with more or less accuracy. So what? Would it be first time that educated and non educated people are wrong in conclusion? You and that some point how Paul must have in mind Genesis 3:16, but Paul not give his reference to Genesis 3:16 BUT to the LAW. Very clearly written. Why you want to make me to read something that is not written in this same verse? Do i have some dyslexia or vision problems and can not see the word Law in Genesis 3:16?

Does one being educated of all things biblical and historical, offend you? I thought you people see that knowledge is power, is it not? Or perhaps one is not to know all things? I really didn't have a choice in learning about the Bible as a mere child, but I accepted it without hesitation because I knew I'd benefit and know who the True God is, and I consider that strict biblical study and teachings as well as history, as a blessing.

I know some Scholars and some Biblical Students, I know some professors also who teach about biblical history and the church, granted they are bias because on some points. How are you so sure they they are not accurate? There is a lot of people who understand the Bible who are indeed knowledgeable in this sense. Especially those who literally lived by the Bible since they were a toddler.

It is not about education, as you want to make it seem, it is about what the Bible says and only what the Bible says in accordance to the historical evidence of the scriptures, the manuscripts, the early church, and other forms of writings of the Apostolic Age. In your case, it is not about education or not, it is about clear ignorance and even with evidence placed before you, you ignore it, this isn't the first time and I will continue to profess what is indeed true because I actually take the initiative to read and research and see the true conclusion.

Well if you actually take the time to look at the references for 1 Corinthians 14:34, it should be obvious, granted when he stated the Law says so, it points to several verses, one of them including Genesis, granted Paul spoke strongly of not just the truth, but of Creation, of The Promised Seed, as well as the Family, core things of which Apostle Paul profess and even by his own students although their views have changed later on.

It is not about what is written in the same verse, it is about understanding in full context of what the verse conveys, granted that the verse in of it self even gives you the references. Like I said read and research and with what is gathered, the context is there and obvious like the sun in the sky or the grass on the ground for it is that clear.

No, the only problem you have is being cryptic, somewhat ignorant and contradicting, and at times, being in your own feelings on things because you do not see it the way the Bible speaks of such. Should I discuss with you on the likes of cursed ones in the Torah Old Testament, your feelings would obviously be expressed as you have done so before. I would not say vision either, let's not forget it was you who stated that such are of your own interpretation and or opinions of what the Bible says when the Bible is the complete opposite.

4 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

In this God's words you reading how His intention is/was  to regulate male-female relations and put male over female. But that is only your interpretation of Genesis 3:16 and nothing more. In period when all was Perfect, there is no single verse about God's plan that Adam have to control Eve. Read your Genesis chapters 1-3. Nothing about so called "theocratic order" and female place on position you suggest that exist from the Day of Creation. Counting how Adam was first and Eve was second telling nothing how God was made Adam Head of Eve. What verse in Genesis said such?

God is not a God of favoritism, he is a God of Law as well as a God of Order. In this application is is also in mankind itself for man came first and woman came after and you can even see such being expressed in both the Old and New Testament. For if God didn't have an issue with such, then surely he would not be having issues with someone being equal and or above him, which is not the case, in this same sense, God is above all persons and Spirit Beings. He is above both men and women and is above the Christ, but the application of Order in terms of God all the way to his creation remains intact, it is in the Law, it is in the church and it is in the family, that is something that is unbreakable and those who challenge it are the very ones that are in error for their ways.

This is why I stated even true Christian women would say the same thing of what I m addressing, since you brought up Buddhist in Thailand, look for a True Christian women there and discuss on the matter and see who is in the right.

That being said, anyone who tries to change is is of the mainstream and it is only being done by them for they are in the OK with women being of religious leadership when the reality is this is problematic to what was addressed by means of structure regarding God's view on things as well as the Order of which has been expressed by several, including Apostle Paul.

No one said Theocratic Order, but it is funny now that you are making words up when you realize you put yourself in a box - once again.

4 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

When talking to God, Adam did not say to God how Eve not respected him as husband and disobey what he told to her. No, he said: "The woman you put here with me"—she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it.”  This have no sound how Eve is second-class in hierarchy. She was there with him. Because God put her there and Adam was aware of that fact. 

Adam was addressing the fruit he has eaten because Eve, who had been deceived, gave Adam the fruit to eat, the only reason Adam was nervous when God question him about his nakedness. Adam, even before he ate the fruit was aware of Eve, for not only he loved her, he even spoke to God of how the animals have mates which eventually led to Eve's creation by means of Adam's rib.

Again you ignore what Apostle Paul even said. Adam was the first man and Eve was the First Woman. Adam was created first and later on, Eve was created, she was second to be created. Paul addresses Creation in regards to God's Order, Eve was the wife of Adam. This application is in the Bible itself so it is no surprise Paul brought it up, granted references tend to go way back to Genesis when he speaks of anything of the like.

4 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Adam was also aware of command about ruling, but ruling over the animals and earth only. Not over the Eve! Here is also one of the reasons why he not acting in different manner, as Head who would reject or accept the idea (so how today the JW congregation would expect him to do so)  when Eve offer him the fruit. He was not in such position, or he not thinking of himself as in such position because, we see how  his answer to God say something else -"The woman you put here with me"

You still are missing the point, and I do not know whether to be amused or baffled about such. Adam and Eve are not animals, friend, they are humans, extremely distinct from animals. Again you keep bringing up Jehovah's Witnesses when you clearly are up against biblical evidence and history, you are making yourself to be quite the comical one, but at the same time you still refuse to understand what Paul was trying to convey, and you are being ignorant of what is indeed true, just like how the truth about Chloe had been expressed not too long ago.

4 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Again, i call you politely  to show Verse from the Law about this, because Paul said in his expose how "For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says." 

Check out the links posted above and see exactly of what Paul was speaking about in terms of Creation, take a good look at 1 Timothy 2:11-14 because as of now you are making yourself out to be foolish, Sostar.

What Paul stated The Law says so, he is addressing creation and such points to several verses.

4 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Ones again, Genesis 3:16 is not part of the Law.  :))))  , on the contrary "some will point" that this is Prophecy. 

Well then Biblehub may have it in your you than, or perhaps all Biblical sources that address all cross-references be it exact and or extended. Perhaps they will quake at your exegesis of Chloe too, which is unlikely, for any man can see through that deception.

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1 hour ago, Srecko Sostar said:

women rule over them

So, here in book of Isaiah, God has objection about woman who rule over man, but He was very satisfied with Deborah who served as military and legal leader for nation in book of Judges? Do you want suggesting something about JHVH and why he chose Deborah for leading position over all nation, over all males, elders, patriarchs? Do you have problem with that? Why would God brake his own principle about position of woman (according to some view on this matter) in Israel nation by appointing Deborah to fill an office of leader? Looks like there was no male at the moment to fill that need? I hope she wore a cover on her head  while in service. Or this also would be problem for some people?

She served as Military Leader. She served as Judge. God has not changed, as he himself claim. So, do you suggest how He made a mistake with Deborah? And decide that never again woman will be in position as judge alone, as judge with male partner or as judge above other male members?  

Or do you think that Samson, because he was male, was better Judge then Deborah?

It in regards to A Judgment Against Judah, and the references point to Jeremiah 5:31 and Habakkuk 1:4, that is, if you bothered to look at the main references, or perhaps the extension? Job 30:13, Proverbs 28:16, Eccle. 10:16, Isaiah 9:16, 19:14, 28:14, 15, Micah 3:5

Deborah was a Judge of the Nation of Israel, not of the church, and this goes back to Biblical Fact in which you are trying to equal that of the Old Testament when no church existed during that time. Or did you miss purposely when I address Deborah as a Prophetess?

Actually here is where you confuse the information. Prophetess Deborah was the one who gave word to Barak that God gave command him to lead an attack against the forces of the King of Ca'naan and his military commander, Sisera (Judges 4:6–7).The narrative is shown in in chapter 4 of the same book.

The one of whom Deborah spoke to was Barak, for he was a ruler of Ancient Israel as well as a military commander as seen in The Book of Judges. Barak, with Prophetess Deborah, from the Tribe of Ephraim, the prophet and 4th Judge of pre-monarchic Israel, defeated the Canaanite armies led by Sisera. For Sisera was was commander of the Canaanite army of King Jabin of Ha'zor, who is mentioned in Judges 4-5 of the Hebrew Old Testament. After being defeated by the forces of the Israelite Tribes, that of both Zebulun and Naphtali, under the command of Barak and Prophetess Deborah, Sisera was defeated and was killed by Jael, who hammered a tent peg into his temple.

The fact you didn't mention Barak is awfully silly, granted when we know of his relationship with Prophetess Deborah. Both Barak and Prophetess Deborah had a common interest, and that is: Liberating Israel from Canaanite oppression.

All males of church affilation are only mentioned in The Greek New Testament, so why even mention elders, patriarchs when in the Old Testament, as addressed before, never made any mention of churches?

Samson was a Judge himself, not a leader of a church., in fact, Samson was one of the last of the judges of the ancient Israel.

Including him [Samson] and Deborah, there is: Othniel, Ehud, Shamgar, Gideon, Abimelech, Tola, Jair, Jephthah, Ibzan, Elon, and Abdon. As far as the eye can see, none of them held leadership and or pastoral role of office inside a church, granted such didn't even exist around that time.

 

Unless you are willing to speak of a church of the Old Testament, enlighten me. For such is unfounded, and I have spoken about Deborah many times, mainly in regards of committing Spiritual Warfare and or Civil Disobedience and the fact she is listed as a hero, along with several other, in her case, aiding the military commander, Barak, to save the nation of Israel itself.

 

Here is the Claim and Response from the evidence, as stated before:

Quote

[Claim 5]: Prophetess Deborah

Most people speak of Deborah’s leadership of authority and make this a claim of which women can lead the church.

 [The Response]: As addressed in the evidence above, Prophetess Deborah was a Judge of the Nation of Israel, not a church, of which we see many churches of them solely in the Greek New Testament. Another factor is the Temples of Old, usually sons and Fathers were the ones to be of Priesthood of such, an example would be Aaron, or perhaps Samuel.

 

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