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IS IT PROPER FOR A WOMAN TO SPEAK, TEACH AND PROPHESY?

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12 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

Actually here is where you confuse the information. Prophetess Deborah was the one who gave word to Barak that God gave command him to lead an attack against the forces of the King of Ca'naan and his military commander, Sisera (Judges 4:6–7).The narrative is shown in in chapter 4 of the same book.

The one of whom Deborah spoke to was Barak, for he was a ruler of Ancient Israel as well as a military commander as seen in The Book of Judges. Barak, with Prophetess Deborah, from the Tribe of Ephraim, the prophet and 4th Judge of pre-monarchic Israel, defeated the Canaanite armies led by Sisera. For Sisera was was commander of the Canaanite army of King Jabin of Ha'zor, who is mentioned in Judges 4-5 of the Hebrew Old Testament. After being defeated by the forces of the Israelite Tribes, that of both Zebulun and Naphtali, under the command of Barak and Prophetess Deborah, Sisera was defeated and was killed by Jael, who hammered a tent peg into his temple.

Please Space, if Deborah gave word to Barak, did she only been messenger? I would say that she became, maybe by not her own will, person who take responsibility of leadership as Commander of army too. So by that she was important person in chain of command. And she went on battle field! You said in your explanation that (and confirmed my statement) by saying;"... under the command of Barak and Prophetess Deborah.." 

You confuse me dear friend :))))

Another woman came on scene. Jael. We see that Deborah and Jael was much more heroic than Barak. SO WHO IS BETTER HEAD IN THIS CASE, FEMALE OR MALE? :))) With Church or without Church, we discuss about does woman have ability, permission, possibility, obligation, prohibition, advice, and similar -  to do same things as male doing. 

After all, both, male and female doing very beautiful and very ugly things. And they are doing that with and/or without God and/or Church! 

I found something interesting on web. Here it is:

God’s reason for choosing Barak for the Israelite commander is not clear. Deborah lived in southern Ephriam. Surely, there was an Israelite man who could lead the Israelites who lived closer than Kedesh, Barak’s home in northern Naphtali. On the other hand, Kedesh was only about 5 miles from Hazor. Barak personal experience with Jabin’s domination motivated him to throw off the Canaanite oppression.

Barak’s caution when Deborah’s called him to be war commander of Israel seems appropriate for three reasons. First, the proximity of Kedesh and Hazor allowed Barak to know the magnitude of Jabin’s army along with its chariots. To Barak, the Canaanite army was beyond formidable. Second, the Bible gave no indication that Barak had battle experience. Likely his father Abinoam was a clan leader in Naphtali (Judges 5:12-13). Probably Barak had experience with decision making for a small group of men, but definitely not for an army of 10,000 men. Third, Deborah held court near Bethel, approximately 80 miles from Barak’s home town. Barak may not have known Deborah well; thus he was not sure that she spoke for God rather than herself. Barak must have been reassured when Deborah agreed to go with the Israelite army. Deborah was putting her life on the line along with Barak and the Israelite men.

Barak’s response showed that he focused on Sisera’s seasoned, well-equipped army rather than God’s power and plan, e.g., God plan to lure the Canaanites into the Kishon river valley. Because of Barak’s failure to fully trust God, this Israelite victory over the mighty Canaanite army is remembered more for Jael’s subterfuge than Barak’s leadership.

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16 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

even thought you deem Abraham as selfish,

How can not you to understand that Abraham is just human like others. He did some good and some not good in life. He did something about he can be proud and something that can be discussed an questioned from today standpoint. You want to put him in sky and stars and in same time telling me (expect from me) that i need to adore or even bow down or worship him because of what he is/are or represent. Please be reasonable.

You ask me ones what would i do if i would be in "his sandals", when he an Sara was "acting to be brother and sister"? Let me ask you, just for sake of discussion, you have no obligation to answer,  "What would you do that your wife offer you young girl, her slave, made, friend, what ever she is, because two of you  can not have children (or for some other reason)?" Would you make love with her for such purpose?"

Abraham did so. And it looks he was liked Hagar much and she liked him, and loved her, fall in love with her.  Who wouldn't fall  in love with young beautiful female. Did he broke some principles? If looked from Old patriarchal way of living - No! it was common not only to God chosen people, but also for Not God chosen people (non God worshipers) for Society of those period of time, before and after.  What example and role model giving his experience with Hagar for people living today.

He and Hagar not experienced Gods anger. Only family problems with jealous Sara :))) 

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7 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Please Space, if Deborah gave word to Barak, did she only been messenger? I would say that she became, maybe by not her own will, person who take responsibility of leadership as Commander of army too. So by that she was important person in chain of command. And she went on battle field! You said in your explanation that (and confirmed my statement) by saying;"... under the command of Barak and Prophetess Deborah.." 

And yet in your last response you stated this about Prophetess Deborah,


Srecko Quote: "Deborah who served as military and legal leader for nation in book of Judges" false information, because we know of Deborah to be a Prophetess and a Judge of the Nation of Israel. As for the past several years, people have negated Deborah's role as a Prophetess of God to make the claim she was indeed a military leader, but they ignore the fact that she was the one given command to give word to Barak in the first place, although she followed Barak, he was the one to lead the tribes mentioned into battle, for such has only been spoken on in prophecy by the Prophetess, as she had done in regards to Jael. We also know these same people do not speak of Barak as being a ruler of Ancient Israel and military commander, mainly when it is known as to who his Father is.

Now, there is no question to anyone that Judges can be and served in some form of military based service, but this is never seen in regards of Prophetess Deborah (perhaps Spiritual Leader as some would say), who was not the one to be physically fighting and or commanding an army, she simply gave word to Barak of what God had said, for God had seen the 20 years of oppression. We know some Judges did fight and lead people, for instance, Judge Shamgar, who slaughtered about 600 Philistines with an ox goad and or cattle goad and he is accredited to have saved Israel as seen in Judges 3:31, despite succumbing to death in his 1st year of being a Judge, according to Josephus, we also have Gideon, and Ehud, to name a few, perhaps Samson, who fought in a battle himself. Granted that both Deborah and Barak were dealing with Sisera, and what we know Sisera is capable of and what he tends to do with his so called spoils, clearly Deborah would not be in the battlefield, and granted she was a Prophetess, compared to the others who are of the same role as her.

We know the actual truth of the matter when we read the following verse:

  • Judges 4:4-5 - [4] Now Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lappidoth, was judging Israel at that time. [5] She used to sit under the palm of Deborah between Ramah and Bethel in the hill country of Ephraim, and the people of Israel came up to her for judgment.

 

Now then Srecko, I stated you are confusing the information because we see nowhere that Prophetess Deborah served as a military commander or the like (something of which other Judges who I have mentioned already, have done, but not this Prophetess), and it is already know that she is a Judge of the Nation of Israel. She did give a message, granted her position as not only a Judge of the Nation of Israel, but also a Prophetess, remember, a Prophetess is a female counterpart of a Prophet, we should already be aware of what a Prophet actually is: a person regarded as an inspired teacher or proclaimer of the will of God.

Continuing on from the verses above we also read the following to correct these claims of yours: "I would say that she became, maybe by not her own will, person who take responsibility of leadership as Commander of army too. So by that she was important person in chain of command. "

  • [6] She sent and summoned Barak the son of Abinoam from Kedesh-naphtali and said to him, “Has not the Lord [YHWH], the God of Israel, commanded you, ‘Go, gather your men at Mount Tabor, taking 10,000 from the people of Naphtali and the people of Zebulun. [7] And I will draw out Sisera, the general of Jabin's army, to meet you by the river Kishon with his chariots and his troops, and I will give him into your hand’?”

We can see here that she summoned Barak for God has used her in order to summon and choose Barak in the first place, for Barak was indeed both a ruler and an actual military commander and had she said these things to him as well as making known to him a fortelling, for if she had led the military and or is a military commander, it would have stated that in the Book of Judges and there wouldn't be a need for Barak or God having the Prophetess send for him, but clearly we see nothing of the sort because we know of how Barak's involvement by means of Scripture. After contacting Barak and informing him of the situation and what God had said, Barak said the following in the next verse:
 

  • [8] Barak said to her [Deborah], “If you will go with me, I will go, but if you will not go with me, I will not go.” [9] And she said, “I will surely go with you. Nevertheless, the road on which you are going will not lead to your glory, for the Lord will sell Sisera into the hand of a woman.”
     

And as I said, both Deborah and Barak had the same common interest in liberating Israel from an enemy, and because of this, Prophetess Deborah went with Barak.

  • [9b] Then Deborah arose and went with Barak to Kedesh. [10] And Barak called out Zebulun and Naphtali to Kedesh. And 10,000 men went up at his heels, and Deborah went up with him.


As for your next response, how are you so sure that she went onto the Battlefield fighting and leading? Of all people a Judge who is a Prophetess unless you are willing to show us a verse or two, or perhaps a passage? The account very clear, for it states that Deborah went with Barak, for Barak not only allowed her to follow him due to common interest, but because God's presence by means of the Prophetess, you know, the same God who through Deborah who summoned Barak a military commander to begin with. Moreover, we see in the verses itself of who is leading Zbulun and Naphtali to Kedesh to begin with, we see who is leading the 10,000 men among such ones, and Deborah followed went with them, and not only does the Bible says such, but historic accounts that lines up with the Bible says so as well.

Here is an actual fact: Deborah summoned Barak, the son of Abinoam, from his home at Kedesh in Naphtali, and ordered him, in the name of YHWH, to take ten thousand men to Mount Tabor. He agrees to on condition that Deborah should go with him. Here he was attacked, as Deborah had expected, by Sisera, whose forces were put to flight, and the greater part of them slain, by Barak's army (Barak, Jewish Encyclopedia)

So your response: So by that she was important person in chain of command. And she went on battle field! 
 

Is unfounded for even Biblical and historical facts of the Hebrew Bible speaks for itself, hence no mention of her actually fighting and taking chair in the field itself. The fighting forces were led by and commanded by Barak to fight against Sisera and his army. Deborah was a Prophetess and a Judge who also was very not liking of Sisera, who by means of God summoned Barak and foretold what was to come, and because of this, Barak accepts in condition that Deborah comes with him, in which she does for the both of them to see it through that their enemy, and God's enemy, is defeated.

Plus it is evident that everyone and anyone is aware that Barak is God's chosen military leader for the task at hand.


As for this: You said in your explanation that (and confirmed my statement) by saying;"... under the command of Barak and Prophetess Deborah.." 

If you actually took into account the whole statement I made I said the following, why stop at a small portion? Anyways the quote in full was this: The one of whom Deborah spoke to was Barak, for he was a ruler of Ancient Israel as well as a military commander as seen in The Book of Judges. Barak, with Prophetess Deborah, from the Tribe of Ephraim, the prophet and 4th Judge of pre-monarchic Israel, defeated the Canaanite armies led by Sisera. For Sisera was was commander of the Canaanite army of King Jabin of Ha'zor, who is mentioned in Judges 4-5 of the Hebrew Old Testament. After being defeated by the forces of the Israelite Tribes, that of both Zebulun and Naphtali, under the command of Barak and Prophetess Deborah, Sisera was defeated and was killed by Jael, who hammered a tent peg into his temple.

We know that Barak and Deborah were not friends with Sisera who was of the enemy of whom the people of Israel had been oppressed by Jabin, the king of Ca'naan, whose capital was Ha'zor, for 20 years - the very reason this Prophetess and Judge came into play to begin with.

Barak was the one who gave command and Deborah's command came forth by means of a message, from God which led to the summoning of Barak, check out the references if you have the time. For, we are even aware of what Prophetess Deborah had stated when she said the following in Judges 4:14:

  • Go! This is the day the Lord has given Sisera into your hands. Has not the Lord gone ahead of you?" So Barak went down Mount Tabor, with ten thousand men following him.
7 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

You confuse me dear friend :))))

Why would I be confuse about something of the Hebrew Old Testament of which I had read through and studied time and time again for nearly 18+ years? The confusion is your claim that Deborah was a military commander of some sort, we do not see anything of the like in the Book of Judges (although some who make this claim negate/exclude Barak totally), so I'd be careful to speak of confusion, after all, you have shown confusion throughout this thread, just as you have with Chloe.

7 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Another woman came on scene. Jael. We see that Deborah and Jael was much more heroic than Barak. SO WHO IS BETTER HEAD IN THIS CASE, FEMALE OR MALE? :))) With Church or without Church, we discuss about does woman have ability, permission, possibility, obligation, prohibition, advice, and similar -  to do same things as male doing. 

Yes, Jael, also known as Yael, The wife of Heber the Kenite (a non-Israelite), in addition, the Kenite people were a Nomadic Tribe, some of whom lived very close to the Israelite people. In the Bible, it records a number of cases of intermarriage of the people, and the father-in-law of Moses was apparently a Kenite, but it is not clear if this was in fact Jethro. She is mentioned in the Book of Judges in the Hebrew Bible, as the heroine/hero who killed Sisera to deliver Israel from the troops of King Jabin. The last time we spoke of her you were against her actions, as in Spiritual Warfare and Civil Obedience and the very fact she is seen as a hero, to even women today, granted her title being: Slayer of The Canaanite Army Chief, Sisera.

After Sisera was defeated by Barak's forces, he fled to a neutral Heber camp, and this is where he has met with the woman, Jael, who had invited him into her tent. Jael took care of him, she then covered him with a blanket. When Sisera asked for water she gave him a bowl of curdled milk to drink. While being very relaxed, Sisera was the one to had ask her to stand guard, for he knew being defeated, Barak's forces would come for him. For he had thought to himself that he was secured by means of Jael. Eventually, Sisera fell asleep for it is evident this man was exhausted, granted how he fled this far out. At this moment, Jael, took this opportunity to take up a tent peg, sneak into the tent of where Sisera was sleeping in, then she quietly went to him, armed with a hammer and a tent peg that she drove through his head, instantly killing Sisera in his sleep.

Barak finally tracked down the last area Sisera was in only for Jael to confront Barak and showed him the corpse/dead body of The Army Chief, Sisera, for Sisera is now dead at the hand of a woman,  as foretold by Prophetess Deborah foretold in Judges 4:9 and 17-22.

  • And she said, “I will surely go with you. Nevertheless, the road on which you are going will not lead to your glory, for the Lord will sell Sisera into the hand of a woman.” Then Deborah arose and went with Barak to Kedesh.
  • [17] But Sisera fled away on foot to the tent of Jael, the wife of Heber the Kenite, for there was peace between Jabin the king of Hazor and the house of Heber the Kenite. [18] And Jael came out to meet Sisera and said to him, “Turn aside, my lord; turn aside to me; do not be afraid.” So he turned aside to her into the tent, and she covered him with a rug. [19] And he said to her, “Please give me a little water to drink, for I am thirsty.” So she opened a skin of milk and gave him a drink and covered him. [20] And he said to her, “Stand at the opening of the tent, and if any man comes and asks you, ‘Is anyone here?’ say, ‘No.’” [21] But Jael the wife of Heber took a tent peg, and took a hammer in her hand. Then she went softly to him and drove the peg into his temple until it went down into the ground while he was lying fast asleep from weariness. So he died. [22] And behold, as Barak was pursuing Sisera, Jael went out to meet him and said to him, “Come, and I will show you the man whom you are seeking.” So he went in to her tent, and there lay Sisera dead, with the tent peg in his temple.

Because of Jael's actions, and courageous act against a threat to the Israelites, the one who was deemed an enemy of God, this prompted a song of victory of Prophetess Deborah, Judge of the Nation of Israel, and of military commander and ancient ruler of Israel, Barak, which also pronounces Jael most blessed among women as seen in Judges 5:6 and 24-27.
 

  • “In the days of Shamgar, son of Anath, in the days of Jael, the highways were abandoned, and travelers kept to the byways.
  • [24] “Most blessed of women be Jael, the wife of Heber the Kenite, of tent-dwelling women most blessed. [25] He asked for water and she gave him milk; she brought him curds in a noble's bowl. [26] She sent her hand to the tent peg and her right hand to the workmen's mallet; she struck Sisera; she crushed his head; she shattered and pierced his temple. [27] Between her feet he sank, he fell, he lay still; between her feet he sank, he fell; where he sank, there he fell—dead.

As for your response: With Church or without Church, we discuss about does woman have ability, permission, possibility, obligation, prohibition, advice, and similar -  to do same things as male doing. 


The focus from the start was of the church and religious leadership, and even before that it was already stated using Deborah's role as Prophetess and Judge has nothing to do with church leadership and or the like. It is already established that a JW or anything of them will not save you here, and it is most likely the Admin will not save you here also.


But I like how you attempt to shift religious leadership into the Hebrew Old Testament of things, classic Srecko Sostar when it comes to adding and or changing discussion as time progresses, mind you, you seem to show opinion and feeling of church leadership prior to this, but I guess the so called story that sister was indeed made up after all if you changed this fast.


But what I find quite amusing is not too long ago you said the following: Do you want suggesting something about JHVH and why he chose Deborah for leading position over all nation, over all males, elders, patriarchs? 


The thing is, the focus of the discussion of of women, yes, but of religious leadership roles, if you forgot, read through the first page again, remember, you did try to twist and use Paul's work already.
 

7 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

O WHO IS BETTER HEAD IN THIS CASE, FEMALE OR MALE? :)))

And why must the game of favoritism be played? Last I checked, none of these women had anything to do with religious leadership of authority and or hold pastoral office in a church.

7 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

After all, both, male and female doing very beautiful and very ugly things. And they are doing that with and/or without God and/or Church! 

The Hebrew Old Testament has some of the most brutal things that had taken place, such being from either men or women in this case. But nowhere in the Hebrew Old Testament it is shown that women held an office in a Church. Using a Prophetess and a Judge is seen as cowardly in terms of discussion, granted the actual Biblical Fact technically foreshadowed such in this regard, mainly by the likes of you, Sostar.


Therefore, as I said earlier in this discussion, using a Prophetess does not prove religious leadership, and using someone like Deborah is not going to help either, granted she is a not just a Prophetess, but a Judge among Judges of Israel.

7 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

I found something interesting on web. Here it is:

Of course you did, and that infomration also defeats your earlier response, let's see how this is actucally true.
Also I found the source of where you pulled that information (of course the very first link of Google via search, typical move made by typical people)

    Hello guest!

I show the link here so people can see where you got your information.

You also seem to skip the very first parts and skip straight to Analysis.
 

7 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

God’s reason for choosing Barak for the Israelite commander is not clear. Deborah lived in southern Ephriam. Surely, there was an Israelite man who could lead the Israelites who lived closer than Kedesh, Barak’s home in northern Naphtali. On the other hand, Kedesh was only about 5 miles from Hazor. Barak personal experience with Jabin’s domination motivated him to throw off the Canaanite oppression.

Barak’s caution when Deborah’s called him to be war commander of Israel seems appropriate for three reasons. First, the proximity of Kedesh and Hazor allowed Barak to know the magnitude of Jabin’s army along with its chariots. To Barak, the Canaanite army was beyond formidable. Second, the Bible gave no indication that Barak had battle experience. Likely his father Abinoam was a clan leader in Naphtali (Judges 5:12-13). Probably Barak had experience with decision making for a small group of men, but definitely not for an army of 10,000 men. Third, Deborah held court near Bethel, approximately 80 miles from Barak’s home town. Barak may not have known Deborah well; thus he was not sure that she spoke for God rather than herself. Barak must have been reassured when Deborah agreed to go with the Israelite army. Deborah was putting her life on the line along with Barak and the Israelite men.

Barak’s response showed that he focused on Sisera’s seasoned, well-equipped army rather than God’s power and plan, e.g., God plan to lure the Canaanites into the Kishon river valley. Because of Barak’s failure to fully trust God, this Israelite victory over the mighty Canaanite army is remembered more for Jael’s subterfuge than Barak’s leadership.

You stated that Deborah who served as military and legal leader for nation in book of Judges.


The information you linked stated otherwise. An the primary focus of this linked information was of Barak.


Granted he, Barak, was the Son of Abinoam of Kedesh within the territory of Naphtali. During an early period in the time for 20 years the people endured oppression by Jabin, the king of Ca'naan- it is history after all. The oppressed ones cried out to God, and eventually it was then that Barak became their appointed leader as we can read in Judges 4:1-3.


On the other hand, the oppressors under Jabin were heavily armed to the teeth as we can see in Judges 5:8. But, in Barak’s day, God gave Israel victory over their foes, a a fight that was won and such that was not forgotten, see Psalms 83:9. Only 2 accounts of these matters are shown in the Bible and by means of history, an that is in the Book of Judges, the chapters already being known because it has already been mentioned, and the both of them are complements each other and shows us a clear picture of what took place during that time.

That being said, God has not broke his own principle in regards to the Church, granted churches only came about in and around Jesus' day, from infancy to adulthood into his death and resurrection, hence what was said in The Gospel of Matthew chapter 16 and what was seen onward. But attempting to compare Judges to a church will not do much for you, granted I even stated that women do have roles and I told you before that some women, including Sarah (of whom you called her Husband, Abraham, Selfish), are seen as Heroes, but it is not surprise you say something different oppose to what you have stated before, this goes for Jael too.


That being said, you pretty much linked information from a source that only defeats what you said originally, you can't delete that one.


And you've yet to prove the case on Chloe because after being corrected (the very reason you shift away from her in regards to your claim), once again, you make no mention of such, if you want we can speak on Judges, but as stated before, using a Judge over the nation of Israel, granted on ho such ones are Judges to begin with, let alone attempting to use a Prophetess of the Hebrew Old Testament to make a justification for something in the Greek New Testament, the church, is nothing more than a feeble struggle, of which can be seen here.


I did you a favor on using your own link to direct you on all information about Jael, but unlike you I do not selected a small portion, the link explains everything, not solely the analysis alone:

    Hello guest!

Other than that you've yet to show us Deborah, a Prophetess was actually taking charge here in terms of leading the fighters into battle or being in the battle itself. She can be present, yes, but actually leading and fight - unlikely. For if Shamgar, who is a Judge himself, was in a position to do so and it was mentioned in the Bible - his battle, him actually fighting, etc., why is it you cannot do the same for Deborah? Because it is unfounded, and the very fact you haven't mention Barak till now (the source itself, not you) or no mention of who his Father is speaking volume and is very telling, just as your claim of Chloe being a church leader in Corinth when the evidence amounts before you.

Read your Bible and understand it, otherwise you'll be corrected.

That being said, nothing here makes proof to claim of church leadership, mainly when speaking of Apostle Paul who was not a leader of an army, a nation and or other, he was a leader of a church, an Apostle or as some would say, a Saint.
 

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@Srecko Sostar 

31 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

How can not you to understand that Abraham is just human like others. He did some good and some not good in life. He did something about he can be proud and something that can be discussed an questioned from today standpoint. You want to put him in sky and stars and in same time telling me (expect from me) that i need to adore or even bow down or worship him because of what he is/are or represent. Please be reasonable.

You ask me ones what would i do if i would be in "his sandals", when he an Sara was "acting to be brother and sister"? Let me ask you, just for sake of discussion, you have no obligation to answer,  "What would you do that your wife offer you young girl, her slave, made, friend, what ever she is, because two of you  can not have children (or for some other reason)?" Would you make love with her for such purpose?"

Abraham did so. And it looks he was liked Hagar much and she liked him, and loved her, fall in love with her.  Who wouldn't fall  in love with young beautiful female. Did he broke some principles? If looked from Old patriarchal way of living - No! it was common not only to God chosen people, but also for Not God chosen people (non God worshipers) for Society of those period of time, before and after.  What example and role model giving his experience with Hagar for people living today.

He and Hagar not experienced Gods anger. Only family problems with jealous Sara :))) 

Did you forget what you stated in your own words and yet contridiction your very words here also?

That being said, you should also be very aware of Sarah agreement with Abraham in regards to Hagar, mind you, she wanted a son. Also I asked you what if you were in Abraham's sandals int terms of the Sister-Wife narrative, not of Hagar, do not try shift what was asked of you, Sostar because it can most definitely be used against you, just like the claim of yours that Abraham was selfish, when his action was the very reason Jesus was born in Bethlehem and what was spoken of in Galatians 3:28, 29, which is not a true statement of being One in Christ, but of the one of whom Paul speaks of, the mane named Abraham, who whom you called selfish.

Other than that, if you want to continue speaking of Abraham, do so in the other thread, because this time Admin will not come to save you here, therefore, keep the discussion as it is, of women and of religious leadership because clearly, the Old Testament is not even in your favor right now, and it will never be in regards to the topic.

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    • I disagree. Jesus "framework" is/are interpreted many times by many people or organizations as how they see how would Jesus do this or that. So when you put quote that sound so final and as definitive diagnosis; " the Watchtower has the same framework as Jesus did", i must be careful, alert :)))) Not forget how same WT using phrases (when they explaining GB doctrines) as "Jesus must be thinking this or that, he obviously mean this or that. So, please do not call for Jesus authority when promote own or GB ideas :))  
    • Then you will notice, the Watchtower has the same framework as Jesus did, to separate church from state. So, it is not what the GB is saying, it is what scripture is saying. The majority of former witnesses fail to make that distinction.  As for the trolling, from everyone here, that’s to be expected. There’s only one cure. The moral fiber of some is zero.
    • My opinion is not of some importance now. It is more important how WT define it and how some of people who participate in this forum as WT defender, are not  in harmony /unity, obeying) what GB told them, instructing and teaching. Let see what i found in JW publications. Politicians, activists, and reformers have long struggled to find solutions to divisive issues. Their efforts may be sincere and well-motivated. Yet, Christians recognize that only God’s Kingdom can solve mankind’s problems and guarantee true justice. We must leave the matter in Jehovah’s hands. After all, if each Christian advocated the solution he thought best, would not our congregations soon become divided? -  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. "From Political Activist to Neutral Christian"                                                                                                                                                                                            THE year was 1953. The place—Liberec, Czechoslovakia (now Czech Republic). I was then a 19-year-old activist who sought political change. We activists propagated our views by distributing leaflets that were critical of the Communist Party, then in power. -  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. Similarly, true Christians today do not engage in civil disobedience. They await the day and hour when qualified intervention by God will come. Only he has the wisdom and the power to bring lasting solutions to mankind. Through their preaching work, Jehovah’s Witnesses reassure those who are suffering from injustices that such relief is soon to come. -  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.
    • Where can I find comments for the watchtower images?  
    • rubadubdubdub ...... rubadubdubdub ...... rubadubdubdub ...... rubadubdubdub ...... rubadubdubdub ...... .... stupid chain saw .....
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