Jump to content

Witness

IS IT PROPER FOR A WOMAN TO SPEAK, TEACH AND PROPHESY?

Topic Summary

Created

Last Reply

Replies

Views

Witness -
Space Merchant -
62
1906

Top Posters


Recommended Posts

@Srecko Sostar Even without the Bible, the instruction of the church's hierarchy is clear and concise and is of God on to his Son, to the people of whom he entrusted the abilities of the church to, which is clear of leadership authority of the church, therefore, to speak as though women held such a position over a men is both unfounded and accursed - that is, if we take God's  purpose and will of which is included of the church itself seriously.

Also why re-link this thread when you are posting on this thread? Other than that, both you and Witness have a lot of history to catch up on in regards of church hierarchy and why it is of whom is to assume role of religious leadership. 

We should not being attempting to change what is in place, or tweak what is in place as if it was a game of The Sims, this is serious stuff and should be taken seriously. For if ye cannot stand the heat that cometh from the kitchen, ye must make haste and leave.

 

Other than that, both of you have not proven any women being of religious authority and or leadership by means of the church's core structure of which is professed in scripture and in historical evidence of the early church, let alone the claim of Mary 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1:26] Then God said, "Let us make humankind in our image, according to our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the wild animals of the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth."
[1:27] So God created humankind in his image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them.
[1:28] God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the air and over every living thing that moves upon the earth."

NO INDICATION how God was said anything about a hierarchy that favors a male over a female.

 

[2:18] Then the LORD God said, "It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a helper as his partner."
[2:19] So out of the ground the LORD God formed every animal of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called every living creature, that was its name.
[2:20] The man gave names to all cattle, and to the birds of the air, and to every animal of the field; but for the man there was not found a helper as his partner.

WHY this chapter told that God made some soft of omission, when 1 chapter say that God create both of them without time gap. How could be that Creator made all in pairs, but missed to see how male man would be lost, lonely, unsuccessful without female man "Helper". If male need helper in person of female, then he (Adam and all Adam till today) needs HELP in ALL what he/they need, have to do. According to verse, he need to have HELPER AS PARTNER. NOT helper as female servant, female slave, female mute.

A man is incomplete without a woman! Verse said so! So how we come to the point that woman must be in "silent" in all things, not only in so called "spiritual" things connected with faith, beliefs,  worshiping.  

In WT religion husband or male must to have last/final word on anything, according to GB bible scholars teachings. With or without "helper" help/helping :))))

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For over 40 years, I used to sit at a drafting table, and later at computer monitors, and design things.

... all kinds of things.

Lets say my boss came to seven different designers and asked for us to design something ... anything,

Without rock-solid airtight specifications you might get seven versions of whatever that thing was.

You might get an MP3 player that weighs 20 pounds and looks like a bathroom fixture.

At the time Eve was created there were already millions of pre-humans that evolved, but none directly created by God, until Adam and Eve were created. ( ... a planet full of a million tons and more of fossils make it pretty clear what DID happen .... ).

By the way ... that's where Cain got his wife, and further messed up the gene pool ....)

Jehovah God is not accountable to us as to how WE think he should have done things .... he COULD have made us have a caterpillar stage like butterflies, and that would have been his choice.

The really cool thing about being Almighty God, is the absolute flexibility  and power to do ANYTHING you want, however you see fit.

Second guessing the Almighty God is, by practical definition, an exercise in futility.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

NO INDICATION how God was said anything about a hierarchy that favors a male over a female.

Did you not read the above and or choose at your own will to avoid of actual truth in this matter? And so I cometh, to invite ye, to gaze upon what is written above in response.

It's not a matter of favoritism, Sostar, it is a matter of how Adam and then Eve had came about on to the earth as to how the church and family is structured, of which is heavily explained above in full detail.

A female cannot be above the man, a child cannot be above his father and or mother, mainly in regards to the father who is present and is of authority to the family household for he is the head, or as the Americans say, The Man of the House.

If you think of such in this regard, show me where in the bible that the woman is the head of the man? Unfounded and indefensible.

For it would seem in the realm of the church by means of history, you are not strong in this domain here.

For as your other comments, you've already crashed your new car before it has even left the Dealer's Lot.

7 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

WHY this chapter told that God made some soft of omission, when 1 chapter say that God create both of them without time gap. How could be that Creator made all in pairs, but missed to see how male man would be lost, lonely, unsuccessful without female man "Helper". If male need helper in person of female, then he (Adam and all Adam till today) needs HELP in ALL what he/they need, have to do. According to verse, he need to have HELPER AS PARTNER. NOT helper as female servant, female slave, female mute.

Adam was made first and only later on when Adam was in subjection of wanting a mate of his own after seeing the animals, Eve had been , made when Adam went into a deep sleep and a rib was take out of his body and used by God to make another human being, a female, of whom is called and name Eve (for she was named by Adam himself).

So to say there was no time gap, clearly you haven't really read into Genesis that much.For chapter 1 of Genesis is of the beginning of creation in an introductory form, for if God was spoken of to make man and woman and yet in chapter 2 we see him only now making Adam, you are only going to run into a problem here. This is the same case with John 1 and Mark 1 for some people, apparently yours, it is Genesis.

Perhaps because man was made in his image and likeness only after every other thing in the heavens and the sea has been created? Granted of when God created the first man, that alone is a clue of which is in place for you to follow.

Helper and or Partner is irrelevant to the discussion and I rather not go out of discussion. Today, Sostar, the key phrase is being focused, so no more games, giggles and convoluted statements form this point on.

Lastly, you fail to see that the women is clearly no mute, the focus here is religious leadership, after all you were in agreement some points before, why the change?

7 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

A man is incomplete without a woman! Verse said so! So how we come to the point that woman must be in "silent" in all things, not only in so called "spiritual" things connected with faith, beliefs,  worshiping.  

Clearly you haven't read and or taken into context of what was stated. This time take into account biblical facts and information, mainly that of the historic position of the early church itself.

7 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

In WT religion husband or male must to have last/final word on anything, according to GB bible scholars teachings. With or without "helper" help/helping :))))

At this point, the Watchtower is as irrelevant as a fly on the wall for they know their stance in regard of the early church nor making mention of them will help your resolve here - granted of how strong the historical ascpets of the church that comes from the Bible is made known to us, therefore, even predates JWs for them and all of us were not alive or even existing during the days of the early church, for even anything from them will save you from what is being talked about - Church History, something of which those who claim to be Christians and yet adhere to the mainstream do not have a grasp of knowledge in. Today you'll learn and you will learn it the hard way.

As is said before, we only see the virgin Mary meeting a Prophetess, Mary is never spoken of to be a Prophetess, granted her position in all this, as is Elizabeth, the mother of John the Baptist.

We know women can be ministers, teachers, prophetess, which is absolutely true, but NEVER we see in the church's structure that a women holds office to and or religious leadership of authority within the church's history and it is yet unseen by means of the biblical accounts of anyone who makes claim and or attempts to connect something that is not there, putting a puzzle piece in the wrong spot, so to speak.

We know of dire situations that will put women to task, but such is not permanent and or everlasting, and if oversea affairs has taught us anything, we see such being done, and I o not need to post any sources from Syria again because I have already and mention such over and over, even to you.

That being said, you can go about and speak your peace, you cannot do anything to alter and or try to refute that of the early church's position in regards to religious leadership and authority and the roles and position of men and women of the church.

You can go about speaking of women ministers and the like, but clearly when it comes to the church's authority, you are merely throwing pebbles at a titanium wall right now, a fight that cannot be finished, a fight that cannot be won, case and point, Sostar. Other than that, I find your lack in giggles disturbing this time around.

The only people to fight for religious leadership of authority to be held by women are only those of the mainstream Christendom, for they think if a man can do it, they can do it too, having a total disregard of what the Bible says and the history of the church as seen in the Bible. To make matters worse, they do not even take into account of head coverings.

So it is wise to not cross a line that you yourself knows is not right.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

I wonder if in Mexico, when a woman temporarily substitutes for a man in the Congregation, if she has to wear a sombrero?

Not quite. They will where a head covering that appears to be somewhat looking as though it is a Hijab. As long as the head is cover, which is in respects to God's Law and biblical standards, it should be A-OK, at least these young girls and women have respect compared to the mainstream, new age and charismatic movements in the US.

photo.jpg

19-David-Lazar-Girl-With-Headscarf.jpg

Mexico is rather dangerous also if you do not know where you are and or going, for any man who the Cartel sees as a threat will be dealt with. The Cartel show no purpose to a popular Mexican kid on YouTube who had quite the colorful words for them, only for the next day, this kid, is no more and was done away with by the group he insulted, this can be found here: 

    Hello guest!
 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

Also you still have not mention Mary in depth,

My thoughts on this matter concur with the article, and I cannot see pursuing the point with you any further, SP. 

I will, though, touch on Mary.

When keeping in mind this scripture first proclaimed by Joel…

“And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God,
That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh;
Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
Your young men shall see visions,
Your old men shall dream dreams.
 And on My menservants and on My maidservants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days;
And they shall prophesy
.”  Acts 2:17,18

...read Mary’s prayer:

 “My soul magnifies the Lord,
47 And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior.
48 
For He has regarded the lowly state of His maidservant;
For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed.
49 
For He who is mighty has done great things for me,
And holy is His name.
50 And His mercy is on those who fear Him
From generation to generation.
51 He has shown strength with His arm;
He has scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts.
52 He has put down the mighty from their thrones,
And exalted the lowly.
53 He has filled the hungry with good things,
And the rich He has sent away empty.
54 He has helped His servant Israel,
In remembrance of His mercy,
55 
As
He spoke to our fathers,
To Abraham and to his seed forever.”  Luke 1:46-55

Can you not see that she spoke these words as the result of the pouring out of Holy Spirit upon her?

It is the same with Zacharias:

Now his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Spirit, and prophesied, saying:

68 “Blessed is the Lord God of Israel,
For He has visited and redeemed His people,
69 And has raised up a horn of salvation for us
In the house of His servant David,
70 
As
He spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets,
Who have been since the world began,
71 That we should be saved from our enemies
And from the hand of all who hate us,
72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers
And to remember His holy covenant,
73 The oath which He swore to our father Abraham:
74 To grant us that we,
Being delivered from the hand of our enemies,
Might serve Him without fear,
75 In holiness and righteousness before Him all the days of our life.

76 “And you, child, will be called the prophet of the Highest;
For you will go before the face of the Lord to prepare His ways,
77 To give knowledge of salvation to His people
By the remission of their sins,
78 Through the tender mercy of our God,
With which the Dayspring from on high has visited us;
79 To give light to those who sit in darkness and the shadow of death,
To guide our feet into the way of peace.”  Luke 1:67-79
 

 

Oh, one other thing. 

Eph 5:23 -   “For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body.”

"For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body."  KJV

This is a comparison of “heads”.  Christ is head of the church.  The church is the anointed Body.  (Matt 16:18)

“And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.”  Col 1:18

He is the only Head of all within the Body, that is comprised of both male and female.  He is the spiritual “husband” of the Body/Bride.  The comparison of this husband/bride arrangement is made to a physical marriage of a man and a woman. 

“For I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy; for I betrothed you to one husband, so that to Christ I might present you as a pure virgin.”  2 Cor 11:2

This doesn’t give room for any man to acts as go between for Christ concerning anointed woman. Concerning ALL women.   Though, you believe so, just as the governing body believes so.  Yet, they also believe they are head over every anointed one, male or female, since they must fully obey the wicked slave, and their own “body” of elders that they “govern” over,  built outside of God’s intentions.  Matt 24:48-51

We have only one saviour, Christ. We are only to be Christ's servant, not man's.   For anyone to stand between Christ and another, and expect obedience to their "decrees", they take on the role of saviour, and the role of judge.   The governing body has successfully accomplished this.

"Who are you to judge another’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand."  Rom 14:4

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Galatians 3:28 New International Version (NIV)

28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 

This same Paul here said very advanced and almost innovative thought. He abolishes all the social divisions that are characteristic of the society in which they lives. I primarily think of Jewish society and religion as an indivisible part of the Jew people. Eliminates the difference on the basis of nationality. Eliminates the difference of status on a social scale caused by position or origin in society. Eliminates differences caused by belonging to sex, gender. (It not surprised if some talking how First Christians was the Religious Communist with the ideas of a classless, egalitarian society that shared their land and their other property and similar.)

Why these 3 stumbling stone are connected and put "in one bag" with clear  answer on problems that this 3 listed items causing till today?  

When he talking about "you are all one in Christ", he undoubtedly talking about New Religious System of that NEW SOCIETY that try to forming New Congregation. Not New "Jew Congregation". Of course they are not been able to escape all obstacles and traps which drag them into the old system of worship of God and the religious hierarchy that existed in Jewish religion for so many centuries. They were not so strong to cut all ties with old things. Because "new light" that shined on them, for short time, was to much new for them to be that something what would be possible to incorporate into something new formed. And that they themselves did not know how this newly-found faith should actually look like in structure, in the relationship between the members, between the sexes.

Perhaps Paul was highly "Inspired" while he dare to talking about such taboo theme - male and female are equal to the such point, to such level,  that sex/gender even not existing in Congregation of God, not existing as question, as principle, as stumbling stone, as difference, as controversy.

So they mixed old thoughts with new thoughts. Paul is one example. We find his commands to congregation about "silenced woman" and on other hand with full confidence he talking how "we are all one an equal".   :))

Here is context of verse i mentioned in the beginning, to see "whole picture" how he ( and I/me, hehehe) came to unity of sexes :)) because we are all: 

Children of God

23 Before the coming of this faith,[

    Hello guest!
] we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed.24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.

26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Forum Statistics

    61,183
    Total Topics
    112,010
    Total Posts
  • Member Statistics

    16,405
    Total Members
    1,592
    Most Online
    Ty89
    Newest Member
    Ty89
    Joined




×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

Terms of Service Confirmation Terms of Use Privacy Policy Guidelines We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.