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1975 was in the past. Are we HONEST about it TODAY?

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Several posts from some recent topics have veered into a discussion of 1975 (yet again). My personal concern about the topic is that, like others have just mentioned, I have also been seeing a lack of honesty about it from both JWs and ex-JWs/non-JWs. We shouldn't be as concerned about what others on the outside say, but perhaps we need to take another look at the accuracy of statements that we make ourselves, in our own defense.

To start, I would say that I agree that no Watchtower article or Watchtower publication ever said that the world was going to end in 1975.

But when we try to convince people today about what was really said back then, what is our purpose in only selectively choosing things that were said and printed in Watchtower publications? Is it possible to be dishonest by what we omit when we defend this topic?

*GA: The upvote is an artefact of this post when it was under another topic. You may wish to remove it from this topic.

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I'd like to confirm an update. I spoke with one JW, an African American who became one of Jehovah's Witnesses back in 1973, I knew he was JW because of the little pin on his book-bag at a Super Walmart (A day I had the most awkward question being asked of me in a restaurant). After ths discussion, he was talking about all biological stuff, of which I didn't have time for for it didn't peek my interest.

This man stated during 1975 he was speaking about what was posed earlier, the 6,000 years of human existence and or creation since Adam. He also stated that around 1975 some JWs assumed that the end was actually coming, the result of some JWs spreading things that was never actually said, some JWs ended up buying homes and cars, for some odd reason while the other half, who took into account what was said knew that Judgement Day was near but it was not in 1975 nor was it ever said to be, mind you, the JW said they were still preaching and have not ceased such. He went on to say that because the ones who didn't hear correctly, end up leaving the faith for their own error, when several, if not many, mentioned exactly what took place in 1975, hence the previous comment.

Therefore, I do not see why some people make claim that JWs said the end would come in 1975 when nothing of the sort was ever mentioned, the irony is now that this information is public, no matter how hard opponents of the faith try to flag, get people's information and videos removed from the internet so this remains hidden.

Moreover, as for the Restaurant thing, this is off-topic. A random Hippie guy said to me that he appreciates my people and said that Aretha Franklin, and I was dumbfounded and confused, then I realized, I was the only person, that one guy, sitting in an all Korean restaurant. Although I do not take offense, that was a bit odd and weird, to some, they would scream racism for being singled out, but I care not because all I cared about was waiting for my order so I can go home. I like classic music very much, but I do not idolize any singers, even Ms. Franklin, hence what going on int hat funeral.

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Anna:

Oh yeah ... I had forgotten about THOSE crazy years ... because I never believed any of that .... but I did get caught, BIG TIME, in the "1975" fiasco, even though during the run-up to 1975 I openly ridiculed it ... right there at the end, I reasoned, in the fall of 1974

"How could I be right, and everybody else ... people I respected, loved  and cared about .... everybody ... be WRONG? ( About the end coming in 1975)."

It did not seem probable to me that EVERYBODY (In the Truth) was wrong so I quit the best job I ever had, in Zaire, the Congo, to be back home with my Mom and Dad in Virginia, when "the END came".

To this day, Brothers and Sisters "swear" that never happened .....  but in the  Watchtower, March 15, 1980 issue , paragraphs 17 and 18 ONE TIME admitted that they did say that ... in the book "Life Everlasting - In Freedom of the Sons of God".

I did not find out about that "soft admission of culpability" until Mr. Google and I became good friends, many, many years later ... but long before that I learned to trust my own instincts over that of anything the Society said or published.

If they are wrong, only we down here at the bottom have to pay the price for their error.

If they permanently screw up our lives ... they pay no price whatsoever.

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14 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

it did not seem probable to me that EVERYBODY (In the Truth) was wrong so I quit the best job I ever had, in Zaire, the Congo, to be back home with my Mom and Dad in Virginia, when "the END came".

To this day, Brothers and Sisters "swear" that never happened ..

I believe you. I personally know a few who did similar things. There is no doubt about it that 1975 got blown up out of all proportions. That is why those who knew their Bible, and put that as precedent over what anybody else said (including the president of the society at the time) call it trusting your own instincts if you like, didn't get burned. But I understand that it must have been very difficult if the majority saw it differently than you. Moral of the story? Trust the Bible and no man. Lesson learned. We've got to move on.

14 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

....... they pay no price whatsoever.

I wouldn't be so sure about that.

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@James Thomas Rook Jr. According to facts the whole 1975 thing (well as to what I have made note of as of late) was of man's existence since Adam and people being told to be vigilant for anything can happen. Not once did anyone say the world is coming to an end, in the case of the Jehovah's Witnesses, it would make them seem foolish to say such, granted the preaching of the gospel has never ceased prior to, during 1975 at all, and there are several who say this, while the majority is being flagged by former members of the faith. Another factor is there are those who are aware of some JWs, who had since left the faith, took it upon themselves to commit their own actions, assuming the end of the world would come, which is foolish on their part for they heard very clearly.

Because one would have to be very honest with themselves, if the Bible tells you that the preaching of the gospel is to be done, preached to all the nations. In their Christology it is said there will be a time when they would totally cease preaching 100%, and we have not seen any of them happening now, in 1975 or in the past. Granted the gospel has to be preached first and according to them God will soon decide when to cease the gospel preaching, technically being a sign of the work being done, and you wouldn't see a JW in sight, as someone would say, JWs would just vanish without a trace.

If anything, some Jehovah's Witnesses may be bad hearers, or forgetful hearers assume otherwise, JW group B being in the wrong, while JW group A, who heard everything were in the right.

About the book, this is hat Old Man Eli had to say: The book Life Everlasting - In Freedom of the Sons of God, released at a series of district conventions held in 1966, pointed to 1975. Right at the convention, as the brothers examined the contents, the new book triggered much discussion about 1975." - Jehovah's Witnesses Proclaimers of God's Kingdom; pg. 104, Declaring the Good News Without Letup (1942-1975)

The book in question mentioned 1975 3 times (I could be wrong, replied on PDF source to see if they match up accordingly)

  • [1] According to this trustworthy Bible chronology six thousand years from man's creation will end in 1975, and the seventh period of a thousand years of human history will begin in the fall of 1975 C.E.
  • [2] cited (1975, 6,000 years from man's creation end. 29)
  • Other quotes (not in book/or whatever) “In the years following 1966, many of Jehovah’s Witnesses acted in harmony with the spirit of that counsel [the main point about not being specific about what might happen]. However, other statements were published on this subject, and some were likely more definite than advisable. This was acknowledged in The Watchtower of March 15, 1980 (page 17). But Jehovah’s Witnesses were also cautioned to concentrate mainly on doing Jehovah’s will and not to be swept up by dates and expectations of an early salvation.” (page 104) | "There were other statements published that implied that such realization of hopes by that year (1975) was more of a probability than a mere possibility. It is to be regretted that these latter statements apparently overshadowed the cautionary ones and contributed to a buildup of the expectation already initiated." - Watchtower, 1980 March 15, p.17, par. 5

For the claim made by opponents "The Watchtower strongly implied the end would come in 1975." is as false as their other claim that JWs own parts of companies in electronics, lingerie and weapons, of which the same people claim the churches of JWs having weapon bunkers below. Also remnants of that strong video proof still linger about on the internet, thus further making such opponents in greater error, but what to expect from those [some among them] who would attempt to use the current President (The Orange-Haired One) to take down a single faith group?

I too believe the end will come, but no one knows for certain, for the bile says no one knows the day or the hour, not even the sons of the Most High, that being the angels, not even the only-begotten Son, Jesus knows, only God the Father knows (Matthew 24:36, Mark 13:32, Acts 1:7). In the same sense, it is like a teenager throwing a party while his or her parents are out of the house, but little does he/she knows that the time the parents will return home is unknown, not the best example, but it seems to fit the bill here.

That being said, although the end is indeed near, one should not be roaming about, caught with his pants down as they say when it does happen, by that time it would be too late, mainly when you, prior to the day see less and less preachers out there, be it true or false. It is one thing to be in agreement/disagreement with a faith........ Unless they are mainstream Trinitarian folk..... But one must know what is fact and what is not fact, but on occasion some of us tend to jump to conclusions, even though we, are the same ones who put forth actual fact previously - happens to me sometimes.

As far as I know, even to this day, you still see Jehovah's Witnesses everywhere, in the streets, at the houses, in the parks/schools, perhaps even in the bushes and trees as well, trying to evangelize people and speak of the gospel and a day will come when such places you would not see them at all, and eventually those who are adhering to the message, they too will be gone also, others may be in silence because they know what time it is.

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In my own experience, I was born in '57, baptized 10 years later, and had to read the "Life Everlasting" book as one of the two books assigned for baptismal candidates, along with the "Lamp" book questions. I auxiliary pioneered for several months in 1972, and quit school to regular pioneer for 3.5 years from 1973 until leaving for Brooklyn Bethel, where I worked full-time for 4 years, and then part-time, on projects, for another two while going to college in NYC.

I give this portion of my "resume" only because I can speak to the experience of being baptized prior to 1975, and was part of the Bethel build-up from the influx of workers and financial contributions that Bethel received around 1975. I pioneered for several years both before and after 1975.

Your experience may vary, but I can still tell you pretty much what I was thinking just prior to 1975, because I had to clear my plans with my parents, my school, and two circuit overseers, since I quit school while I was still 15 to begin regular pioneering in 1973.

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I would say it was an unfortunate collection of events, that altogether gave the impression that the society was promoting 1975 as the date for Armageddon. There is no doubt that it was insinuated by some prominent speakers at conventions (in America mainly?) and also those who were "living out their last days of this system selling their houses so they could pioneer" were publicly praised, ( also in the KM). It is no different now, those who give their all in full time service are also praised today, however, those who did this a few years before 1975 was no coincidence, and I believe the praise was worded in such a way that it was no coincidence either. There was so much insinuation that went unchecked, that it was no wonder 1975 became a fact, instead of what it was said to be, a maybe. It didn't help that one of the prominent brothers said in reply to "is Armageddon coming in 1975?": "we're not saying, we're not saying" which sounds like: "well yes of course it is, but I don't want to sound presumptuous". And who could help but not get excited by that famous Charles Sinutko talk where the phrase "stay alive till 75" was coined.

All in all I think it has been a good lesson for most: know your Bible, and make sure of all things. And if your (Bible trained) instincts tell you something isn't quite right, then it probably isn't. 

 

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7 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Whatever happened to old Charlie, anyway? Did he ever get off KP duty?

Actually I think he's doing really well, if he's still alive. Look him up in JW library, or probably the cd.

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22 hours ago, Anna said:

There was so much insinuation that went unchecked, that it was no wonder 1975 became a fact, instead of what it was said to be, a maybe.

Russell himself said he was ashamed of Second Adventism with all its false predictions. He was embarrassed by the Adventists yet he took little else from them besides their chronology. From the start, he was drawn to their chronology system. He often claimed that he was not so interested in the chronology but focused on Christian character instead, yet he made belief in the updated Second Adventist chronology the single criteria that separated the Foolish Virgins from the Wise Virgins.

Here's an example of the kind of dishonesty I refer to that always seems to accompany the topic of chronology in every religion that focuses on it. It goes all the way back to the first few months of Watch Tower publications:

Here are some statements from the January 1881 Watch Tower magazine:

  • This is a question doubtless that many ask themselves, viz: "How soon will our change come?" This change many of us have looked forward to for years, and we yet with much pleasure, think of the time when we shall be gathered unto Jesus and see Him as he is. In the article concerning our change, in December paper, we expressed the opinion that it was nearer than many supposed, and while we would not attempt to prove our change at any particular time, yet we propose looking at some of the evidences which seem to show the translation or change from the natural to the spiritual condition, due this side or by the fall of our year 1881. The evidence that our change will be by that time, increases since we have seen that the change to spiritual bodies is not the marriage. While we thought the marriage to be the change, and knowing there was three and a half years of special favor to the Nominal Church (now left desolate) from 1878, we could not expect any translation this side of 1881, or during this three and a half years. But since we recognize that going into the marriage is not only being made ready (by recognizing His presence) for the change, but also, that going in includes the change itself, then the evidences that we go in (or will be changed) inside of the time mentioned are strong, and commend themselves to all interested as worthy of investigation. Aside from any direct proof that our change is near, the fact that the manner of the change can now be understood, is evidence that we are near the time of the change, for truth is "meat in due season," and understood only as due. It will be remembered that after the spring of 1878, (when we understand Jesus was due as King) that the subject of holiness or the wedding garment, was very much agitated. And aside from the parallel to the end of the Jewish age, and favor at that time being shown to the Jewish nation, which implied the presence of the King, the consideration of the wedding garment, was also proof of the correctness of the application, for "the King had come in to see the guests," [
      Hello guest!
    ] and hence all were interested in knowing how they stood before Him. Now as the inspection of guests is the last thing prior to our change, which precedes the marriage and we are all now considering the change. It would seem that the time for it, is nigh.
  • We shall now present what we adduce from the types and prophetic points as seeming to indicate the translation of the saints and closing of the door to the high calling by 1881. . . . [skipping a large portion on these evidences, some of which were considered "proofs" of 1874 that evidenced the correctness of 1881.] If this be a correct application (and it seems harmonious) and the time of building is seven years, then we would expect our change by or before the fall of 1881, as from 1874 to then would be the time given for building. . . .  by coming into a knowledge of the Bridegroom's presence, etc., during the seven years harvest [from 1874 to 1881] . . . and as the seven years are about complete, that we will soon follow by being changed. 
      Hello guest!
     and the parallelism of the Jewish and Gospel ages, seem to teach that the wise of the virgins "who are alive and remain" must all come in, to a knowledge of the bridegroom's presence, by the fall of 1881, when the door—opportunity to become a member of the bride—will close.
  • . . . We suggest as quite possible, that the change may come to some prepared before that time.
  • . . .  "Yet seven days [years] and I will cause it to rain upon the earth," should be significant, because we have expected trouble, in a special sense, about 1881, and, according to the type, we must enter in by that time. . . . We used to think it would be in the midst of a great trouble that we would be changed, but now we do not. . . .  If the three years mentioned in connection with Aaron has any bearing, then it would teach our change as coming this side of 1881, as three years from 1878 would bring us inside of that time. . . .  We now have taken prophetic measurements and allegories together, [R182 : page 5] five different points seeming to teach the resurrection of the dead in Christ and change of the living between the fall of 1874 and 1881. Two or more witnesses are enough to prove any case, as a rule, and certainly God has given us abundant evidence. We are also glad to notice that all these things only corroborate previous truths, thus proving to a certainty each application as correct and causing the old jewels to shine brighter. The five lines of argument briefly stated are these:
  • 1st. The days of Daniel ending in 1874, at which time the resurrection commenced, and since which, the dead have been going in to the marriage.
  • 2d. The end of the seven years from that time, as marked by the parallel, of the end of the "seventy weeks" in the Jewish age ending in our year 1881, at which time we all should be in and the door closed, being the end of time of special favor to the nominal church before commencement of trouble which follows our change.

[skipping more, etc. etc. etc.]

There are some cautionary statements built into the article, and statements that this is not proof, just evidence. But note what is done with the evidence. Intelligently-minded people know what this evidence means. And spiritually-minded people know that the faithful and wise servant is providing "food at the proper time" [meat in due season] and that this is the proper time for wise virgins to distinguish themselves from foolish virgins. Also, all this evidence is only evidence on its own, but as it adds up, it becomes "proof" to those who appreciate that God is giving us this evidence in abundance, and that even two of these five lines of evidence should therefore constitute enough to "prove any case" as a rule.

Here are some statements from the May 1881 Watch Tower magazine, p.224, on the same topic, now that the time for hesitation was due:

  • The WATCH TOWER never claimed that the body of Christ will be changed to spiritual beings during this year. There is such a change due sometime. We have not attempted to say when, but have repeatedly said that it could not take place before the fall of 1881.

This was a true statement. The Watch Tower had not claimed that the body of Christ will be changed in 1881, only that the evidence about 1881 should be seen as proof by intelligent and spiritually minded persons who have a true faith and appreciation for God's truths. From this point forward, after failure was obvious, it would be easy to cherry-pick quotes that showed that no one had specifically said it would happen by the fall of 1881  -- even though it was supposed to obvious that for some it would likely happen even before the fall of 1881. But even this is just technicalities and semantics. It's true that they hadn't said it would definitely happen.

Still, there is dishonesty in the attempt to sweep all the embarrassment away. It's in the phrase: "We have not attempted to say when . . ." Is this a true statement? Was there really no attempt to say when the change would take place? That previous article on the topic of when, in January 1881 --only four months earlier--  might as well have been called "When Will the Change Take Place?" It was nothing if not an attempt to say when!

The claim might be technically true. But is it honest?

 

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2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

It's in the phrase: "We have not attempted to say when . . ." Is this a true statement? Was there really no attempt to say when the change would take place? That previous article on the topic of when, in January 1881 --only four months earlier--  might as well have been called "When Will the Change Take Place?" It was nothing if not an attempt to say when!

Of course there was an attempt to say when, quite clearly xD.  It must be rather a predicament for those who make claims, or "attempts", that are forever immortalized in print! I believe Russell was being honest at the time of his attempts, and truly believed what he was saying, otherwise he would have not published it. The fact that he tried to get around it the way he did after his words failed highlights typical human weakness. True, one should expect better from someone who claims to be a messenger, and faithful and wise servant of God, but it wouldn't be the first time human failings manifested themselves in those of whom we would least expect it. That is exactly why, and I know you are on the same page with me on this, we should be cautious about claims and "attempts" made by anyone, even, (or should  I say especially?) those at the top.  I know, many would disagree and pretty much believe what the Slave says, to the letter. There is another website, run by Witnesses, that is strongly monitored for any negativity against the slave.  The other day in FS a sister who I admire and who has her head screwed on right, made a surprising comment. She said that if the Slave told her to do anything she would do it. I am assuming she didn't mean jump off a bridge, because she is not that kind of a person, and has her own views on a few things. So I am assuming she meant "within reason" . But anyone hearing her, who doesn't really know her, could have got the wrong impression.

It is a big dilemma to say the least when we know the Slave has erred in the past and can err in the future (by their own admission) and yet we are still supposed to be obedient to it (now, and in the future when we receive "lifesaving instructions that may not make sense from a human stand point"). I was discussing this with my step dad (elder) and he admitted it was a difficult situation. He said we just have to trust Jehovah. Also, and I've mentioned this on another occasion, we will obey God as ruler rather than man, which means when obedience to man would result in disobedience to God, then we don't go there. This applies to any man. Br. Jackson insinuated this also in his ARC hearing.

 

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2 minutes ago, Anna said:

The other day in FS a sister who I admire and who has her head screwed on right, made a surprising comment. She said that if the Slave told her to do anything she would do it.

To most it just means that we have faith in the Slave that they will not ask us to do anything unreasonable, even though they have asked us to obey in the future even if it does seem unreasonable. I don't think they will ask us to do anything more unreasonable than some of the unreasonable requests on blood doctrine inconsistencies, organ transplants, divorce for "spiritual" adultery (but not for areas of immorality they have not yet defined under the scope of porneia), etc.

They will, evidently, ask us to believe things that are unreasonable or even patently untrue. Men in leadership positions can't usually go more than a few weeks without needing someone to believe something that isn't reasonable or true. That's also the nature of human leadership. That seems to get worse with committees as often as it gets better.

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1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

they have asked us to obey in the future even if it does seem unreasonable

Some probably thought these instructions were unreasonable (at the time):  

 “So Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in yourselves." John 6:53

Or this: "After these things the Lord designated seventy others and sent them forth by twos in advance of him into every city and place to which he himself was going to come." Luke 10:1.

Or even this :"Let the man on the housetop not come down to take the goods out of his house; and let the man in the field not return to the house to pick up his outer garment." Matt.24:17-18.

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4 hours ago, Gone Away said:

Isn't all of this just a person (s) stating what they believe at the time of writing? Why all the hot air regarding honesty?

I guess it depends on how seriously we consider "honesty" and "truth" to be in our teaching:

  • (1 Timothy 4:15, 16) 15 Ponder over these things; be absorbed in them, so that your advancement may be plainly seen by all people. 16 Pay constant attention to yourself and to your teaching. Persevere in these things, for by doing this you will save both yourself and those who listen to you.
  • (Philippians 4:-8) .5 Let your reasonableness become known to all men. The Lord is near. . . . 8 Finally, brothers, whatever things are true, whatever things are of serious concern, . . . continue considering these things.
  • (Proverbs 14:25) . . .A true witness saves lives,. . .

  • (2 Timothy 2:18) 18 These very [men] have deviated from the truth, . . .  and they are subverting the faith of some.

  • (James 3:1-5) 3 Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, knowing that we will receive heavier judgment. . . . . 5 So, too, the tongue is a small part of the body, and yet it makes great brags. See how small a fire it takes to set a great forest ablaze!

  • (John 4:22-24) . . .. 23 Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshippers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for indeed, the Father is looking for ones like these to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit, and those worshipping him must worship with spirit and truth.”

    (John 14:15-17) . . .. 16 And I will ask the Father and he will give you another helper to be with you forever, 17 the spirit of the truth, which the world cannot receive, because it neither sees it nor knows it. You know it, because it remains with you and is in you.

    (Psalm 40:10, 11) . . .I do not hide your loyal love and your truth in the great congregation.” 11 O Jehovah, do not withhold your mercy from me. May your loyal love and your truth constantly safeguard me.

    (Psalm 51:6)  6 Look! You find pleasure in truth in the inner person; Teach my innermost self true wisdom.

If a person is stating something that's untrue, then, yes, it's true that they might just be stating a falsehood that they believe to be true. But in that case what is the reason for the lack of care, the lack of attempted verification, the reason for the willingness to believe something false when it often would have been no trouble at all to make a true statement in its place. Is there a motive that tends to make someone blame others when they themselves are to blame? Is there a motive for a string of repeated falsehoods, even when the person believed each falsehood to be true at the time. Should we learn from our mistakes? Is it worse if the promoter of their own private interpretations of scripture is forced to defend against clear scriptural counsel in order to continue promoting a private interpretation of scripture.

If this type of dishonesty keeps happening, even though it requires kicking against the goads, then there is likely a problem worth looking into.

 

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17 hours ago, JW Insider said:

I guess it depends on how seriously we consider "honesty" and "truth" to be in our teaching:

I agree this should be a prime concern, "we wish to conduct ourselves honestly in all things" Heb 13:11

Of course hindsight is a great instructor, and a good principle is that found in 1Corinthians 13:7 "love believes all things"

So, as long as we keep in mind Jehovah's role in all these matters: "all things are naked and openly exposed to the eyes of the one to whom we must give an account." Heb.4:13.

This will save us becoming "overly righteous" regarding the mistakes of others.

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On 9/3/2018 at 8:17 AM, JW Insider said:

But when we try to convince people today about what was really said back then, what is our purpose in only selectively choosing things that were said and printed in Watchtower publications? Is it possible to be dishonest by what we omit when we defend this topic?

Then what's your point about taking the wrong approach to a topic that you know to be false. Former witnesses distort the facts, as it's done here. So, what's the difference if you call yourself a witness and it amounts to the same distortion.

Who is being dishonest here?

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4 minutes ago, Grey Reformer said:

Then what's your point about taking the wrong approach to a topic that you know to be false. Former witnesses distort the facts, as it's done here. So, what's the difference if you call yourself a witness and it amounts to the same distortion.

I don't want to state anything that is not true. Yes, I've seen former Witnesses distort the facts about 1975. I've heard claims that the Watch Tower publications actually predicted that Armageddon would be here by 1975. The people who claim that are not being honest. That was never said in the WTS publications. A couple years ago, on this forum (or jw-archive.org) I even pointed out that someone had tampered with a recording of Fred Franz to make it look like some things were said in a way that they were never said. That showed the depths of dishonesty that people will sink to. And there are very many more subtle ways that people show their lack of honesty, sometimes from opposers and sometimes from defenders.

Therefore, if any of us want to be able to honestly defend against these accusations, we should know exactly what's true and what isn't. We shouldn't just deny, deny, deny. But we should also be aware of what was said, and not just accept things out of context. We should get a full and comprehensive historical view of the issue so that we are not guilty of cherry-picking various quotes and examples and anecdotes out of context.

So if you believe I have distorted anything about the issue, please bring up the specific example and your evidence. We've seen so many examples of persons on all sides of this issue, who just like to state things without evidence, but this just means they are promoting distortion themselves.

1 hour ago, Grey Reformer said:

Who is being dishonest here?

Anyone who makes claims that are not backed up by evidence might just be showing a lack of care about truth and honesty. That's not necessarily dishonesty, and it might just be based on strong opinions or personal experiences, or believing what one thinks one must believe to keep small pieces of their world view (belief structures) from collapsing. But people who make claims that are contradicted by evidence and who cannot or will not try to present relevant evidence to support their claims, well, unfortunately, those people really are being dishonest, even if their motive is to hang on to an ideology or belief structure they know to be important.

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43 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

Therefore, if any of us want to be able to honestly defend against these accusations, we should know exactly what's true and what isn't. We shouldn't just deny, deny, deny.

Indeed. Who's denying that former witnesses are the least honest people alive? My question is, why then defend their views with your own opposition and with the same distorted publicans they use here by so many of you. So, no one should deny, deny, deny the falsehoods anyone says about the Watchtower and 1975.

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44 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

Anyone who makes claims that are not backed up by evidence might just be showing a lack of care about truth and honesty. That's not necessarily dishonesty, and it might just be based on strong opinions or personal experiences, or believing what one thinks one must believe to keep small pieces of their world view (belief structures) from collapsing. But people who make claims that are contradicted by evidence and who cannot or will not try to present relevant evidence to support their claims, well, unfortunately, those people really are being dishonest, even if their motive is to hang on to an ideology or belief structure they know to be important.

I believe you fall short on this one since it can be applied to you and others here.

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Some WT publications in articles that talk about the end of 6,000 years, and these are the well-known passages on the Internet, even today show that people of that time had great expectations about 1975. And today's reader, by reading same quotes, who did not live in that time and euphoria about a possible future, may come to the conclusion that JW expected change on global scale (nothing new in fact,  IBS and then JW expected that change more then one time, and still now talking "the end is very near")
Is there a sentence in an article that speaks directly or indirectly about some details about 1975 may not be a crucial thing that have to give us an answer today to the question of truth and honesty of WT, and then of the JW member too.
JW brothers and sisters in the time before 1975 had the expectation that change might occur. Did those who had hoped for the new world were a lot or a few, what motives they had and why, that is irrelevant !! WT has given material, spiritual food that has led to the warming up of interest for the possibility in coming of Armageddon and for the Kingdom that will rule over the Earth.

This very fact how 1975 is mentioned not only by ex-JW, but also by JW members and was/is of public speaks and in WT magazines show how something was controversial and  disputable in connection/with 1975.

I was baptized in 1977, started study "blue bomb" in 1975. And have memorized that 1975 was year that some JW with whom i had contacts (elders too)  expected how something will happen. 

Today, I drove a car to the service and returned by bus to the city. One sister, her husband is elder, recognized me after many years and she knew I was no longer JW, started talking to me. She said how she is very happy for getting  new job (in school) after been unemployment for some time, and now can easier to repay the mortgage. In the end she told me that she is hoping  I will return to the assembly because "now is very close to the end".   What is interesting, she and her husband was single workers at Zagreb Betel. They get married and continue work in Betel. After some years must left because personal problems, She became suicidal. Her husband was one to whom i send many quotes from articles, before few years, in English language, about some issues and 1975 also. He never responded to my e-mails. 

Well, JW people living from generation to generation with similar "now is very close to the end". 

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Maybe is  that what happened before, but also this what is happening now in the WT corporation, like this one;

Dallas police officer was charged on Sunday with manslaughter in the fatal shooting of a neighbor, who authorities said was shot by the officer when she walked into an apartment she thought was her own and mistook the man living there for an intruder.

The bizarre sequence of events unfolded after the police officer, Amber Guyger, 30, had just completed a shift late on Thursday and was still in uniform as she returned to an apartment she erroneously believed was hers, police said.

 

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1 hour ago, Grey Reformer said:

So, no one should deny, deny, deny the falsehoods anyone says about the Watchtower and 1975.

False. Everyone should deny falsehoods.

1 hour ago, Grey Reformer said:

Who's denying that former witnesses are the least honest people alive?

I agree that former Witnesses can be dishonest. I wouldn't judge them as the least honest people alive.  I have seen evidence of some dishonesty among some, but don't think any human even has a way to know if they are more or less honest than current Witnesses. My guess is that they would be about the same, on average -- less honest on some topics and more honest on some topics, depending on whether they are trying to promote or protect a specific ideology.

1 hour ago, Grey Reformer said:

My question is, why then defend their views with your own opposition and with the same distorted publicans they use here by so many of you.

I don't defend the views of ex-Witnesses except where the evidence happens to coincide with their views, in which case we don't have much choice if we are honest. I'm opposed to dishonesty so I try not to deny evidence. If some of that evidence is found in their distorted publications, we should still be willing to look at the same evidence, even while identifying how they have distorted the use or conclusions made from it. This does NOT mean we will agree with their views, especially if they are distorting the evidence. Furthermore, we don't even need to look at their views to make a judgment on the accuracy and relevance of the evidence they present.

By "evidence" here, I'm referring specifically to quotations from Watch Tower publications. After checking a few hundred of these quotations found on many different sites, I get the impression that ex-Witnesses are even more careful than Witnesses when it comes to accuracy of the actual quotes. I've also seen some misquotes and misuse of context, mistakes, and outright dishonesty from some ex-Witnesses, too. But for the most part I think they realize that their argument is immediately lost, if a Witness were to find an inaccurate quote.

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9 hours ago, JW Insider said:

I don't defend the views of ex-Witnesses except where the evidence happens to coincide with their views, in which case we don't have much choice if we are honest.

How is it any different from ex-witness view then, that you agree with their distorted facts? That means you are deliberately adding to the false narrative that you are trying so hard to convince people here you are again'st. People can't have it both ways. This doesn't make any sense on an intellectual level when people support opposing views. Either directly or indirectly by agreeing with incoherency through up or down votes.

9 hours ago, JW Insider said:

By "evidence" here, I'm referring specifically to quotations from Watch Tower publications.

You have contradicted your stance with the Watchtower. But, I guess this is what's happens when you go to an apostate site like JWfacts to gather the material.

Then why be judgmental toward the Watchtower. If you don’t want to judge former witnesses for their hatred and prosecution? Then why is it so simple to imply the Watchtower has done something wrong, when in reality as you stated, it never did.

Where is the red line for that kind of behavior? That people find it easy to pile on, on a misconception.

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1 hour ago, Grey Reformer said:

Where is the red line for that kind of behavior? That people find it easy to pile on, on a misconception.

Grey Reformer:

Please go back and re-read what you have written in the last several weeks. It is all extremely consistent.

You care NOTHING about actual facts ... if it disagrees with your agenda.

In the very first issue of the Watchtower, Bro. C. T. Russel stated that ( heavily paraphrased) "The truth is the truth, no matter what the source ... if Satan tells you something that is true... it's still true".

That is still true today.

 

GB BEING TOLD THE TRUTH.jpg

 

 

WHAT IS TRUTH1.jpg

 

You may want to download BOTH  JPGs,  but especially the quote from Bro. Charles Taze Russel, which started the whole shebang of modern day Jehovah''s Witnesses ... based ON THIS PRINCIPLE. ... " What is Truth ?" It is high resolution, and easier to read when downloaded and enlarged.

 

 

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1 hour ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

You care NOTHING about actual facts ... if it disagrees with your agenda.

In the very first issue of the Watchtower, Bro. C. T. Russel stated that ( heavily paraphrased) "The truth is the truth, no matter what the source ... if Satan tells you something that is true... it's still true".

I can see where it would become a problem for people that admit one thing, turn around and stab people in the back. Actual facts are in black and white. Many here are merely instigators to purge on the intelligence of others, with actual known facts that JWinsider has already admitted to. I don’t need to resort to ad-hominem attacks or hurl insults. But I guess that’s a handicap for those that you disagree with. Sorry for not being part of your distorted team. I have a conscience and I’m faith when obeying God. Thus far, the only point made here, former witnesses are wrong about 1975, and some of you are wrong to think they’re way by giving the same company line. Which truth should we follow, God and Jesus, or Satan? God and Christ never hide or distorted the truth to get their way, while Satan did.

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" STAY ALIVE 'TILL '75"

The climatic conclusion met with thunderous applause of the 1967 Charles Sinutko Assembly talk "Serving With Everlasting Life In View" !

After his opening weasel wording  he forgot his plausible deniability statement in the beginning, and ramped it up to a crescendo conclusion  that had the crowd roaring!

"STAY ALIVE 'TILL '75"

 

1967_Charles_Sinutko_Serving_With_Everlasting_Life_in_View_64kb.mp3

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9 hours ago, Grey Reformer said:

You have contradicted your stance with the Watchtower. But, I guess this is what's happens when you go to an apostate site like JWfacts to gather the material.

Let me make it easy for you. In this post I will include every single word I have ever quoted from the jwfacts.com site, where it was not merely a quotation from a Watch Tower publication.

  • THIS TOPIC: ZERO (nothing under this topic was remotely related to jwfacts, not even a Watch Tower quotation!)
  • The 1925/1975 TOPIC: ZERO (two posts; only using WT quotes from jwfacts, nothing except WT quotes)
  • The Armageddon Predictions TOPIC: ZERO (in only one post, all quotes from jwfacts are only direct WT quotes)

I admit that I also quoted a Watch Tower publication from his site (Trey Bundy's) about two years ago to show where his site was factually wrong about the timing of the transition from 1874/78 to 1914. This again was not anything he had written himself, but a quote from a Watch Tower publication.

After I have included the complete list of every word I quoted from jwfacts, you will have the opportunity to tell everyone what you thought was wrong with the Watch Tower quote. If a Watch Tower quote is wrong just because it was typed out on an apostate site, then all someone would have to is try to put ALL Watch Tower publications on an apostate site and you could never quote from hardly any Watch Tower publications again! In fact, I think "avoidJW" did that very thing.

So again, you should notice that I never quoted a word from his site that was not part of a direct quote from Watch Tower publications. The reason for this is that the Watchtower Library only takes Awake! magazines back to 1970, and only includes books that go back to the late 1970's, and I thought I might be quoting from 1966 thru 1968 Awakes and both the Truth book and the Life Everlasting book from 1968 and 1966, respectively. I also noticed while I was there that he had already retyped the Watch Tower's words from after the failures of 1925 and 1914.

======reference=======

FOR REFERENCE, here is everything that was quoted from the site jwfacts.com, repeated below. In each post where I took the Watch Tower quotes directly from his site, I referenced jwfacts, because he had done the work of formatting the Watch Tower reference publication title and page numbers, and in some cases he had included his own highlighting of specific words.

FROM THE "ARMAGEDDON PREDICTIONS" TOPIC:

The Nations Shall Know That I Am Jehovah p. 216

  • "Shortly, within our twentieth century, the "battle in the day of Jehovah" will begin against the modern antitype of Jerusalem, Christendom."

Watchtower 1984 Mar 1 pp.18-19

  • "Some of that "generation" could survive until the end of the century. But there are many indications that "the end" is much closer than that!"

"Let Your Kingdom Come" (1981) p.102

  • But now in our 20th century, we have come to the time for harvest, "a conclusion of a system of things, and the reapers are angels"!

Watchtower 1989 Jan 1 p.12

  • "He was laying a foundation for a work that would be completed in our 20th century."

There is also a quote from the 1966 Life Everlasting book and a 1968 Awake! where I picked up some of the Watch Tower's words from his site rather than retype them myself. The rest of the quotations from Watch Tower publications I quoted directly from looking them up in the Watchtower Library, except for the long quotes from 1881 Zion's Watch Tower which I picked up from a Bible Student site called agsconsulting.com. In both cases I ended up at jwfacts because I had typed: "Shortly within our twentieth century" in Google and jwfacts was the first choice, and when I typed "Zion's Watch Tower May 1881" into Google, the Bible Student site was the third choice.

FROM THE 1925/1975 . . . Why did so many people leave? TOPIC (found in two separate posts):

“It was stated in the 'Millions' book that we might reasonably expect them to return shortly after 1925, but this was merely an expressed opinion; besides it is still shortly after 1925. ... Some anticipated that the work would end in 1925, but the Lord did not state so. The difficulty was that the friends inflated their imaginations beyond reason; and that when their imaginations burst asunder, they were inclined to throw away everything.” Watch Tower 1926 pp.196,232
“So, as Anna MacDonald recalls: “1925 was a sad year for many brothers. Some of them were stumbled; their hopes were dashed. They had hoped to see some of the ‘ancient worthies’ [men of old like Abraham] resurrected. Instead of its being considered a ‘probability,’ they read into it that it was a ‘certainty,’ and some prepared for their own loved ones with expectancy of their resurrection.”” Yearbook 1975 p.146
“Ever since the 1870's, Bible Students had been serving with a date in mind - first 1914, then 1925. Now they realized that they must serve for as long as Jehovah wishes.” Watchtower 1993 Nov 1 p.12
Also, the picture of a portion of a 1920 WTS "Bulletin"

“There is no doubt that many throughout this period were overzealous in their statements as to what could be expected. Some read into the Watch Tower statements that were never intended.” Jehovah's Witnesses in the Divine Purpose p.52

“There were also other expectations concerning 1914. Alexander H. Macmillan, who had been baptized in September 1900, later recalled: "A few of us seriously thought we were going to heaven during the first week of that October. Had some been attracted by the thought of their own early salvation rather than love for God and a strong desire to do his will?” Jehovah's Witnesses - Proclaimers of God's Kingdom p.61

If anyone has been disappointed through not following this line of thought, he should now concentrate on adjusting his viewpoint, seeing that it was not the word of God that failed or deceived him and brought disappointment, but that his own understanding was based on wrong premises.Watchtower 1976 Jul 15 p.441

"The brothers also appreciated the candor of this same talk, which acknowledged the Society's responsibility for some of the disappointment a number felt regarding 1975." Yearbook 1980 pp.30-31 [I changed the word cantor to candor due to a typo on his site.]

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3 hours ago, JW Insider said:

"The brothers also appreciated the candor of this? same talk, which acknowledg?e?d ?t?he Society's responsibility for some of the disappointment? a number felt regarding 1975." Yearbook 1980 pp.30-31 ?[I changed the word cantor to candor due to a typo on his site.]?

Speaking of CANDOR ... the following cartoon is how "candor" works at Warwick World Headquarters, as well as at other businesses ... EVERYWHERE. 

We are NOT immune to this!

It's a cartoon ... but what makes it funny ( and grabs your chest in a queasy sort of way generating sadness ...) is because there is SO MUCH TRUTH, in this satire of what is REAL.

 

dt180906.jpg

Here is a joke for you:

QUESTION: What do you call "candor" ... bundled with insincere kindness?

ANSWER::  No one knows, as truth is being deliberately obscured.

 

 

image.thumb.png.3c785c73fe1f8b51fe951463c3345c84.png

Your homework (should you decide to accept) is to print out the above CANVAS on an 8-1/2x11" piece of paper and find the six things that are deliberate lies, and write it  on the margins of your paper.

 

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3 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Let me make it easy for you. In this post I will include every single word I have ever quoted from the jwfacts.com site, where it was not merely a quotation from a Watch Tower publication.

Seems a bit dishonest since apostate sites quote Watchtower publications as you do. What does that prove? That you think in the same lines of distorting the facts? How about some actual facts that everyone here implies.

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7 minutes ago, Grey Reformer said:

How about some actual facts that everyone here implies.

Exactly! I gave actual facts and you just keep giving non-specific generalities and complaints that a small percentage of the actual facts and evidence from Watch Tower publications were also found on an apostate website, and therefore you seem to feel that they can therefore be ignored or distorted. Unfortunately, this is the kind of thing that sincere people will see right through, and they will see us as more and more dishonest. It's disappointing. How about some actual facts?

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Grey Reformer:

Your entire thinking processes are contaminated by your honorable but misguided agenda.

You cannot defend what is indefensible, and expect to win an argument based on reason and logic when evaluating TRUTH.

5 minutes ago, Grey Reformer said:

Seems a bit dishonest since apostate sites quote Watchtower publications as you do. What does that prove? That you think in the same lines of distorting the facts? How about some actual facts that everyone here implies.

What I just quoted from you is SCARY ... to a logical mind.

It uses the same lack of reasoning that "...all prostitutes wear shoes ... so all people that wear shoes are prostitutes".

Grow up !!

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That’s right, those that stayed alive until 1975 got to be part of the 6000 years existence of mankind, and they also got to see the dramatic global changes that started humanity downward for the worse. So, yes! Stay alive until 1975.

True Christians became one step closer to God’s fulfillment. No one, but no one can change that with distorted Watchtower publications. People can read ALL of them in its proper context, and perhaps experience the delight 1975 brought to those loyally serving god. They savored and relished every minute of it. To know at some distant point, none of this will matter, for all of us will be judged according to our deeds.

There seems to be a disconnect when it comes to sincerity. Former witnesses here never have any.

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Example:

Because of my love for dogs, my heart firmly and absolutely believes my dogs who have died will be waiting for me at the Rainbow Bridge. (Look it up).  There is absolutely no shred of doubt in my heart. None whatsoever. Anywhere.

My mind knows, based on what is true, that it is a complete fantasy.

I am stuck believing with ALL my heart and soul, something that is a complete fantasy, and is not true.

In that regard, but about different subjects, you and I share the same affliction.

We have brains ... we must use them.

That is what adults are supposed to do.

As Yoda says, if I remember correctly .... : "There is only DO .... There is no try"

Do or Do not There is no try Yoda.mp4

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Not wish to offend Mr. G. Reformer. But one possible explanation why you G.R. has (and all other, as me too before few years) this feelings and attitude is, as i see, in problem (it is not problem in fact but tool by with what we as person can move in two possible direction)  called Cognitive Dissonance.

All people that is/was facing with at least two opposite information are entering in this inner condition of brain, of intellect, of soul, of spirituality and found himself in very big trouble.     

You can deny all information's, even facts and stick to your belief in order to "survive" and to stay where you are now (in JWorg) because it is "easier" for mind and heart. By staying in JWorg option you will not destroy your "imagination". Imagination created by WT and by you. On this mutual project you put much efforts, energy, love, faith, money, health, time etc. To leave it, it means a defeat. Defeat for you. Not for WT. They will survive as Company, because they ARE Company.

But you, you can lose everything you built, for many years perhaps. That is very scary!

But dreaded idea to abandon, left  this "safe WT port" makes you, and many other JW,  ready to continue to believe in WT deception.

:((    

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I stay with Jehovah's Witnesses because the core theology is sound, and true .... and not because of the 85% arrogant self serving drivel I have to endure, and the resultant damage on the Brotherhood ... for three reasons:

1.) I appreciate what is actually true is exclusive to Jehovah's Witnesses, and there is nowhere else to go, and

2.) I have learned to expect as a natural right NOTHING from anybody, and

3.) I do not fear death as some do .... might be a good chance to test what I think I know.

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There seems to be a consensus that bigger fonts drive some kind of a point. Being outraged with distorted facts is exactly the position the public holds by those that remember or consider. Nowadays, it seldom does to the outside world. It matters to ex-witnesses the most since they plaster it throughout the internet. It matters here to keep a forgotten distorted view to promote that same agenda.

That means there is nothing different here that merits a good Christian discussion. It is simply an excuse to an end means of a negative portrayal of a failing system.

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4 minutes ago, Alithís Gnosis said:

There seems to be a consensus that bigger fonts drive some kind of a point.

You are right, Alithis Gnosis:

Some people will never, ever get the point of logic, and increased font size will not help them.

You can educate an ignorant man ... but there is nothing that can be done for stupid.

 

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47 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Not wish to offend Mr. G. Reformer. But one possible explanation why you G.R. has (and all other, as me too before few years) this feelings and attitude is, as i see, in problem (it is not problem in fact but tool by with what we as person can move in two possible direction)  called Cognitive Dissonance.

No one here could possibly offend me Srecko. I can’t say that about me offending others because of my views, here. Cognitive Dissonance theory can be applied by those that are disheartened by my viewpoints. The truth usually hits at the heart of those that strongly oppose such logic.

A smear campaign only brings out to light, what Christ meant about negative discourse. Evil. If you place close attention to 1 Timothy 2:8–15, I mean really place close attention, then your theory is on solid ground. God made sure he thought about everyday problems with the best outcome. There is nothing that can’t be applied through scripture with the proper wisdom and reasoning.

This is why ad hominem attacks are a source of desperation to some, instead of frustration by others.

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4 hours ago, Grey Reformer said:

The truth usually hits at the heart of those that strongly oppose such logic. A smear campaign only brings out to light, what Christ meant about negative discourse. Evil. . . . This is why ad hominem attacks are a source of desperation to some, instead of frustration by others.

This is just a small aside, for entertainment purposes. But I was reminded that it might be worth mentioning when I read about smear campaigns, ad hominem attacks, desperation, frustration and negative discourse.

A lot of people have probably noticed that over on the right side of the page you can usually find a little box like this one:

image.png

Out of habit I glance at it whenever I read a recent post, for reasons that might become obvious in a minute. Less than an hour ago "Grey Reformer" disappeared and I suspected that another name might take its place. Sure enough, within a couple minutes "Gray Reformer" was no longer online and the name "Alithís Gnosis" took its place. I knew what to expect, because I recognized the name as an alias of someone who evidently keeps a couple dozen such alias names. I expected a barrage of down votes or laughter votes or "sad votes." This time it was a short campaign of "sad votes." Then, as expected, "Alithís Gnosis" disappeared from the "Who's Online" list and the name "Grey Reformer" was found it its place again.

image.png

Probably just a coincidence ?, but the same thing happened a few days ago when another of his aliases went offline (I won't say who this time)  and it was immediately replaced by "Grey Reformer." This was right after that other easily recognized alias also took the opportunity to offer a short barrage of down votes. Full disclosure: I have seen this same coincidence happen literally dozens of times with the same set of aliases.

Coincidences don't necessarily give a true picture, but they can certainly be entertaining.

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2 hours ago, Alithís Gnosis said:

bigger fonts

as i can recall, JTR said ones that he write with bigger fonts because he can see that text better. Even i consider to put bigger fonts because of my dioptric glass i have (+3.5 for reading)  

i believe this is prime reason in his case :)))  

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6 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Your homework (should you decide to accept) is to print out the above CANVAS on an 8-1/2x11" piece of paper and find the six things that are deliberate lies, and write it  on the margins of your paper.

Sounds like a waste of time. But I'm retired, so I'll tell you what I would come up with:

  • ..."millions now living will never die."... This was a risky prophecy to make. But the risk probably didn't seem too high at the time since, after the failure of 1914, Rutherford said that people had more on which to base their faith in this prophecy than Noah had on which to base his faith in Jehovah telling him there would be a Flood. He said that there was more Bible evidence for 1925 than there was for 1914. But it turned out to be a false prophecy. So it turned out to be a "lie" in the Biblical sense, but it might not have been intentional if the human sources of this false prophecy believed it, and those who repeated it had faith in that human source.
  • "'The Finished Mystery,' the posthumous work of Pastor Russell" . . . This book quoted many times from Russell, but was definitely not the posthumous work of Pastor Russell. (For that matter, the title of the book was a lie, because it promoted itself as the final explanation of the mysteries of Ezekiel and Revelation, yet almost every explanation of the "mystery" in it is now considered to be false.) The Watch Tower publications explained why they called it the "posthumous" work of Pastor Russell in a very odd way. It was because, as a spirit creature who had just died, Russell was supposedly still alive in the spirit world (heaven) in 1917: "Though Pastor Russell has passed beyond the veil, he is still managing every feature of the harvest work." according to "The Finished Mystery" page 144. It was clearly believed that Russell could still continue to influence the Watch Tower Society's publications in a way analogous to how Jehovah influenced the Bible writers.
  • "Since 1881 everybody ridiculed Pastor Russell . . ." Not everybody. Some believed him. Most people in the world had still never heard of him. According to current WT publications, many created a "cult" around him. Rhetorical hyperbole, not necessarily a "lie."
  • "Since 1881. . . the International Bible Students Association" . . . The International Bible Students Association [IBSA] did not exist until 1914 when it was incorporated in London. Before then Bible Students used the simple name "Bible Students" or "Associated Bible Students." Some refused a name, and some even called themselves Russellites and names related to Millennial Dawn, etc. This is not a "lie," just a potentially misleading ambiguity.
  • "Since 1881. . . Pastor Russell's [and IBSA's] message that the Bible prophesied a world war in 1914." The Bible never prophesied a single world war between multiple nations, but this could be a matter of interpretation. The Bible never prophesied anything whatsoever to do with the year 1914. In 1881, and for the next 20-some years, Russell and the IBSA promised that 1914 would be the year when the expected worldwide trouble would end, not begin. All human systems would collapse in 1914, governments, institutions, religions. There would be chaos for several months, but there would be no earthly governments remaining who would be capable of prosecuting such a war. The 7/15/1894 Watch Tower, p.226 said: "But bear in mind that the end of 1914 is not the date for the beginning, but for the end of the time of trouble."
  • "but the war came on time." Very misleading. By the time late 1913 had rolled around, Russell pretty much gave up hope and faith in this 1914 date and moved it to 1915. For a few months even into 1914, Russell even gave up altogether and talked about there being no chance of all that was expected actually happening on time, and he conceded that they must have been wrong, and talked about the prospect that 100 years from now [2014], people might wonder what all this talk had been about. As it was, in about 1904 they had moved the expectation of the great time of trouble to 1914 (sometimes 1915) and began holding to the idea that this time of trouble might happen around October 1st or 2nd 1914. A world war broke out in July and gave them hope that this might be the beginnings of a worldwide collapse of all nations, governments, religions and other human institutions, where the only government with continued authority would be that of literal Israel in Palestine, and God would take a spiritual Israel to rule from heaven in 1914. It turned out, instead, to be a world war between several nations, and many more nations existed after the war, than were numbered before the war -- the opposite of the expectation of all nations disintegrating. Also Israel didn't get back on the map until decades later, and Israel never did become the only remaining human government on earth. Nothing predicted about 1914 ever came true. The most important things proved to be quite the opposite.
  • "and now the message of his final work" . . . Again with the false attribution to Russell who did not work on this book. It was written by George Fisher and Clayton Woodworth along with the claim that Russell had communicated from beyond the veil as a spirit creature to write it posthumously (after he died).
  • "It is an absolute fact. . ." . . . The phrase most often prefixed to bigger than usual lies, especially to sell products. You don't usually have to look at the next phrase to know that it won't usually be true.
  • "It is an absolute fact, stated in every book of the Bible. . ."  Like I said, you didn't need to look. It's absolutely false.
  • "It is an absolute fact. . . foretold by every prophet of the Bible" . . . Just like with the books, it turned out that it was not predicted by any book of the Bible nor any prophet of the Bible. Calling it thus is just an embarrassing way of trying to say you are a prophet speaking in Jehovah's name, sticking your neck out further to make sure that people will later see you as a false prophet if your fantastic guesses don't happen to come true.
  • "well worth a few evenings' time for investigation." . . . Quite the opposite. In fact, anyone who wants to discuss the book today among Witnesses will usually be suspected of apostasy. Even though it is still touted as a book that supposedly had the "ring of truth" no one can go more than a couple pages in the book without coming across something that Witnesses now recognize as false, if not embarrassingly false. And remember, the purpose of this investigation was to prove to yourself that Armageddon was culminating in 1925.
  • "The Golden Age" . . . The idea was that the Golden Age had already begun when the Millennium dawned back in 1874 and various advances in the world, new technology, and even medical advances and theories (that turned out to be from quacks and fraudsters) were supposed to give evidence that the Millennium had started 45 or more years earlier.
  • "both for two seventy-five (don't say dollars)" . . .  This speaks for itself. Internally, the persons who distributed most of these books were spoken of as selling the book, and book salesman could make a profit if they sold enough. The sales process was not so different from the way "colporteurs" in those days were selling books along with Fuller Brushes, Carter's Little Liver Pills, Bibles, Encyclopedias, etc. (Books by Mark Twain [Samuel Clemens] were a profitable moneymaker for colporteurs for many years. See below.)  If you followed the sales instructions and learned the pitch you could make a profit, whether you believed in the content or quality of the material or not.

This reminds me of a story I heard about colporteurs who used to sell the books of Mark Twain in the late 1800s and early 1900's. They could be had in about 4 or more levels of quality. The idea was also to upsell them on a better quality book if the householder agreed to a lower quality, or if they said no to the price of the highest quality (leatherbound, embossed, lithographs, etc.) then they might finally agree to a lower quality. It was a very irritating process to the householder. The goal of course was to get them moved to absolute most they might pay, so they might even split it up with part now and part cash on delivery. Just a quick search didn't find me the story, but I did notice this in a book called "Mark Twain's Road to Bankruptcy," below. You can see that "colporteurs" were not considered the best of society at the time.

image.png

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5 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Probably just a coincidence ?, but the same thing happened a few days ago when another of his aliases went offline (I won't say who this time)  and it was immediately replaced by "Grey Reformer." This was right after that other easily recognized alias also took the opportunity to offer a short barrage of down votes. Full disclosure: I have seen this same coincidence happen literally dozens of times with the same set of aliases.

That's a good one. First I am Allan, now I'm somebody else. I think there is something wrong with the mental stability of some here when people are free to chime in whenever they want. I guess that means you are James and Srecko.

But, this distraction of yours seems to playout everytime you get caught in a deception. A Trump ploy.

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21 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

True. (Although I expect you intentionally misspelled it, just then.)

Since Anna spelled it that way, I am being polite not to go beyond your kind of grammar since it means so much too many of you. But, let me know who else I should be. Chime in anytime.

However, why don’t you explain to Anna the jubilee cycle, the restoration, and restitution idea about 1925, the correct way that is explained in the proclaimer’s book just fine?

Mind you, without attempting to hack my account, here. It's still against US law.

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6 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

as i can recall, JTR said ones that he write with bigger fonts because he can see that text better. Even i consider to put bigger fonts because of my dioptric glass i have (+3.5 for reading)  

i believe this is prime reason in his case :)))  

Actually, I use 18 size fonts because that's the size text I think in.  

Also, you may have noticed that my text is black, not dark grey, because, I think in ink.

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3 hours ago, Anna said:
4 hours ago, JW Insider said:

"millions? ?now liv?ing will ne?ver ??di?e??.?"??

So how has this been explained away today? I don't seem to recall anything...

Just as the "Ministry of Truth" did in the book "1984" by George Orwell, the Society is revising History, wherever they can, to change graphic images ( posters, handbills, and other things that might be used in a current illustration) to read "Millions now living MAY never die." (emphasis mine).

The book "1984 was SUPPOSED to be a fictional dire warning of how societies evolve into a perpetual tyranny over time, and showing how it could happen.

We us it as a policy manual.

In "1984"  England  had evolved into INGSOC, and the way they maintained total social control was by changing the past by changing all historical references .... and by controlling the past, controlled the present, and controlled the future .... making it difficult or impossible to check the past for truthful references to ANYTHING.

The Society today is actively using this technique to change the past. In many cases the bound volumes of the Watchtowers and Awakes have been revised and do not show what was in the original magazines, and convention videos today mentioning our history make you wonder if they are talking about something that happened somewhere in a parallel Universe.

The "Millions now living may never die" is only THE classic example of rewriting the past, to control the present, and by controlling the present, control the future.

Here are two videos that explain "1984".

Watch them and weep.

 

 

The Dystopian World of 1984 Explained.mp4George Orwell's 1984, Part 2_ Crash Course Literature #402 (1).mp4

 

NOW ... find the movie "1984", and watch it. It has a superstar of yesteryear in it ... but you hardly notice.

 

 

 

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18 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Coincidences don't necessarily give a true picture, but they can certainly be entertaining.

Never pay attention to coincidences like this. They mean nothing. hehehehe

Just remember: Jehovah’s Witnesses are a cult!

And don’t listen to that liar @TrueTomHarley when he pretends to agree, but adds:

C. courage

U. unity 

L. love

T. truth

 

Arrrggghhhh! I hate him!

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2 hours ago, AllenSmith34 said:

While you’re at it, include 1914, and 607 material that was made light upon your approach of misrepresenting the Watchtower as a witness. Just as 1975, 1925, and whatever else opposers dwell on.

Yeah ... why dwell on such things ... Like Adolph Hitler is reported to have said when Allied Forces were battling , forcing their way into Germany from both sides, destroying their cities while destroying their armies .... "Those Allies have ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE OF HUMOR!"

We should look at 1925 and 1975 as funny ... like Grandmother's continuous flatulating at the Kitchen Table.

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Being rude, sarcastic, use ad hominem, insults, drama, procrastination, whatever else the mental state offers as an excuse, is very apparent here on a site that is supposed to be friendly to Jehovah’s Witnesses, and is responded by witnesses. I don’t know what kind of witnesses many of you think you are, a witness in good standing you’re not. Even if you are making it an excuse to further your bible teachings, honest and faithful Christians would amount to the discourse and rivalry that is expressed here in supporting the arguments former witnesses offer, and yet, openly agree that some of their arguments are valid when they all have been debunked.

Maybe the JW reformation group would be a more honest approach to relieve some of the anxieties some of you have by pretending to be witnesses. I really don’t understand who it is your fooling since nothing can be hidden from God. What possible good standing do you foresee, that would be in your favor in God’s Eyes. Not just as individuals, but as a faithful group that has the same assent toward each other as though they were married.

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Grey Reformer:

I have learned that between men of integrity, one can always be brutally blunt, but there is nothing you can do for Snowflakes who melt at a slight rise in "temperature".

Since you specifically asked for an answer, I will give you the general answer ... not point-by-point ... because it would take what would seem forever, and historically, would be a waste of my time.

The FACT is ... your viewpoint on human interactions is driven by your AGENDA, which on the surface, is quite noble, but you believe things that really happened did not, you believe things that are really are happening now are not happening, and you vigorously defend the completely indefensible.

I fully understand you are doing the best .. the VERY best ... that you know how to do with your world view of how things OUGHT to be.

You are ignorant, and cannot be taught.

You are going to have to educate yourself on how to think like an adult. 

I was a "late bloomer" in that regard myself, so having been there, I FULLY understand your dilemma.  I, also, was completely unteachable, hard headed, altruistic, and agenda driven ..... and painfully transparent to those that had to endure my cluelessness.

I of course was oblivious, because I was first clueless.  Being clueless is like being dead. You do not know you are dead, but it is quite clear to every one else.

..... but I digress,

Reality is not what you think it SHOULD be.

Reality is what reality is.

You need to put on your "Big Boy Pants", stop thinking like a Watchtower Lawyer's six year old son  .... and grow up.

You asked for answers .... be careful what you ask for ....

BEST SCENE FROM _THE OUTLAW JOSEY WALES_.mp4

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That’s good you feel you’re wasting God’s time. That’s the first honest thing anyone has said so far. As for wasting your time on humans, we all need to start with ourselves, then move on to a more progressive mental state where reasoning doesn't become a lack of conscience, and morals, not to man but to God. The sad thing, God holds standards for true Christians. He expects us to follow on Jesus example and obey biblical commands that are in black and white.

Anyone challenging those standards is simply telling God, I am a God as well, and I don’t need to subject myself to mortal men that you have assigned to carry your work. Let me know how God replies before judgment is set upon those that freely challenge his divine words. Matthew 6:33, James 1:2, Romans 12:2

Honest Christians will understand the bible script above. Although, Jesus made it a challenge to go beyond, and one step further in a symbolic way, Matthew 5:29. It works for all sorts of human behavior that people seem to think it only means for adultery. This is why God seeks spiritually mature people to take the lead, and we can’t will that pesky command away.

The point to look at, why would Jesus allow an infected part of his body to poison the rest of the body. Doesn’t a doctor that has a patient that developed gangrene find it a need to amputate that dead section before it affects other parts of the body or cause death? This is the logic that is being displayed here. Allow the gangrene in place to see what we can learn. So, let’s study it, by making claims and suppositions on how the doctors can learn without there being any mistakes on the proper treatment that is urgently needed. But, let’s see how far we can take it, by using false research before the patient dies.

I don’t find any of it funny, or see the humor about God holding us responsible for every human we drive away from learning about him and Christ. But, then again, I wouldn’t want to, and I’m certain God isn’t laughing either.

Therefore, I do understand that former witnesses carry a false narrative when it comes to 1925 and 1975. I do understand that the Watchtower never claimed Armageddon would come on those years, just like C.T. Russell never claimed it would come in 1914. So, I don’t dwell on false claims. Once in a blue moon, it will come out, and those that have an erred understanding will see for themselves, once the evidence is presented to them in the correct way.

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38 minutes ago, Grey Reformer said:

I don’t find any of it funny, or see the humor about God holding us responsible for every human we drive away from learning about him and Christ. But, then again, I wouldn’t want to, and I’m certain God isn’t laughing either.

You misconstrue EVERYTHING.

I cannot help you.

40 minutes ago, Grey Reformer said:

That’s good you feel you’re wasting God’s time.

You misconstrue EVERYTHING.

I cannot help you.

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7 hours ago, Vic Vomidog said:

Never pay attention to coincidences like this. They mean nothing. hehehehe

Just remember: Jehovah’s Witnesses are a cult!

And don’t listen to that liar @TrueTomHarley when he pretends to agree, but adds:

C. courage

U. unity 

L. love

T. truth

 

Arrrggghhhh! I hate him!

OK True Tom, cut it out! xD

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2 hours ago, Judith Sweeney said:

All of this "chicken little" stuffage is a true waste of time.  WOW!  Talk about gulping down the gnat!   Where is the Love?   There should be encouraging talk for each other in these....Significant Times.

Sorry AS34/GR I didn’t mean to log in at the same time as you. My bad. I keep forgetting who’s who. I’m you, you are me. He is she, it is they, and they are them. As wrong as JWinsider is, he has a good imagination for conspiracies. LOL! People like Anna love it. Can you say secret lovers?

I couldn’t agree more. Perhaps it’s because you have about 4-5 people that make the environment here impossible to attach a righteous command by Christ of loving one another and holding the body of Christ in unity. There is no one else to blame. But we also need to keep in mind, there are plenty of opposers contributing to these contentious topics, and honest witnesses are not willing to defend their faith adequately. Therefore, who is worse and how does this affect the personal lives of those referring to themselves as True Christians. There seems to be an disconnect with the truth.

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10 minutes ago, Alithís Gnosis said:

Sorry AS34/GR I didn’t mean to log in at the same time as you. My bad. I keep forgetting who’s who. I’m you, you are me. He is she, it is they, and they are them.

I  waited until you logged off. come on! we had a good thing going. Remember, wait awhile and log in again. That way we can pretend to be each other. LOL! ??

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14 hours ago, Alithís Gnosis said:

As wrong as JWinsider is, he has a good imagination for conspiracies. LOL! People like Anna love it. Can you say secret lovers?

 

@AllenSmith34,

In just the last couple days, in my opinion, the following aliases have all been juggled by the same person. There may have been others but these are the ones that have interacted with posts I have been reading.

@DespicableME @Malum Intellectus @Alithís Gnosis @Grey Reformer In some of the recent threads, some of these aliases have only been used for up-voting and down-voting. And no, All, I did not hack your account to expose this. Except for Gray Reformer, which didn't show up until August 7, the first three just mentioned were all created by you in the same month, December 2017, and I knew all of them to be you within minutes. Anyone here who was alert to the way they were used immediately after they appeared, and who watched the "Who's Online" list, would have known this just by watching carefully. From now on, as you apparently know, you can mask some of the exposure by keeping several of your aliases logged in at the same time by using multiple computers and/or by using multiple browsers on the same computer. There are several different popular browsers that can all be used simultaneously, and each can be logged in to a different alias account. The downside to that is that you might find it necessary to set up a new set of names since about two dozen of your aliases are already fairly well-known.

Again, these ideas are based on opinion and coincidences; you do not have to worry that anyone has hacked your account(s) to expose these things.

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On 9/12/2018 at 3:31 PM, Anna said:

So was that it? The "WILL" became a "MAY"?

That's not really the story, in my opinion. The Watchtower has often admitted that the title of the talk used the word "May" in February 1918, but that it was changed to "Will" in March 1918, and it never changed back. Looking at over 200 references to it in more recent decades, there were some time periods when the talk was referred to only with "May" and no reference to "Will" was given. This is likely what JTR refers to, but it wasn't as blatant as he implies. Overall, in recent decades, there were over 200 recent references to it as "Will" and only about 20 references to it as "May."

The Proclaimers book gives a fairly accurate account of the talk, even if the discussion and impact of the talk and prophecy appears purposely minimized.

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On 9/11/2018 at 5:15 PM, Anna said:

So how has this been explained away today? I don't seem to recall anything...

Nothing needed to be done to explain it away for nearly 100 years, because there was still a chance within the first 100 years, that the prophecy might have come true. (At least the prophecy made in the title of the talk might still have come true, even if almost all the other details of the prophecy and its foundation had still failed.)

And after 100 years any "scandal" over it is long past, and could easily be dismissed with favorite phrases like "the light gets brighter." 

The statement made in March 1918 ("Millions now living will never die.") has only recently become a truly "false" prophecy in that a fulfillment of sorts was still possible up until a couple years ago. Technically, you would need at least 2 million persons to make the plural "millions" part come true, and we would evidently have needed Armageddon to come sometime around 2016 in order for 2 million 98+ year-olds to still be alive, who had just born in March 1918. Perhaps, some worldwide estimates of the number of 99+ year-olds in 2017 could have been around to potentially survive Armageddon. As of now in late 2018, however, there would have to be 2 million 100.5-year-olds, going on 101 in the next few months. According to average best estimates there are now far less than 1 million 100-year-olds. In fact, barely over 500,000 as seen in the PEW chart that Google returns if you ask "how many centenarians are currently alive in the whole world."

image.png

Another point that would make it even more difficult to be fulfilled would be the fact that back then these millions were going to be unbaptized, worldly people who would simply begin "not to die" as of 1925 and thereafter. It did not refer to the great crowd of Revelation 7. It referred to people of all religions and non-believers who would survive Armageddon because it was Jehovah's purpose, as stated at the time, to save almost everyone through Armageddon into a time when they would simply stop dying. Remember that the "great crowd" of Revelation 7 were still going to heaven along with the 144,000 kings and priests, according to Russell's and Rutherford's teachings. The only difference between the 144,000 in heaven and the great crowd in heaven is that the great crowd were not of the "higher" heavenly calling and were not part of Christ's Bride.

By normally obscuring this fact, and wrongly claiming that the "millions" were the equivalent of the "great crowd,"  the Watch Tower publications have been able to just "chalk up" the prophecy to over-optimism in thinking so many would respond to the Bible Students in such a quick period of time after 1918. It is very rare for the Watch Tower publications to admit how closely this prophecy was tied to the year 1925. In other words, when the great tribulation does come in the next few years, as expected, it will only have been a few years off.

Understanding the original prophecy in its full context is a good idea, in order to understand how and why the references to it have evolved over time. Maybe in another thread?

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I understand that it is being discussed at World HQ running a special issue of the Watchtower, explaining the "signs from the heavens ..." that Hurricane Florence will be picking up sharks from the Atlantic Ocean, and dumping them in front yards, back yards, and on old peoples homes.

If at the Warwick GB conference room this is actually discussed, and it gets 67% of the votes of the GB, then this will be official "New Light".... "New Truth".

Absurd, you say?  No, No NO!

It follows well established patterns of reason and logic for over a HUNDRED YEARS  There is actually NO RISK to this as the credibility gap is WELL exceeded by the gullibility fill. 

Add to that is that if we refuse to believe it, we can be disfellowshipped for Apostasy, and that adds MASSIVE believability  in the real world .

Stay tuned to see if this report is true, or merely a satire.

 

Gravity Electricity Wind .mp4

 

... and remember, when you vote for what is true .... vote early, and vote often !

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@James Thomas Rook Jr. I don't think it would be of concern to them, but they will react as they did in Mexico, Puerto Rico, Texas, Haiti, Japan, etc. it won't be much of a difference with Hurricane Florence since the faith group does relief work to help their own, first, and go for anyone else, as is done before with them, and like before any relief work they do will be flagged and removed and they will be spoken of as the faith group that did nothing - has I made mention of last year. The biggest concern for everyone is that this is a slow moving storm and slow moving means catastrophic damage, as in if their are plant facilities in the area, of which can raise the danger level even higher, and slow moving also increases the chances of little to no survivability with all that water in it's wake.

 

Other than that, natural disasters such as earthquakes even even hurricanes like this are signs and the Bible speaks of such things.

But let us not get carried away like others who claim the hurricane, as done before, it God's anger against mankind, the Christians who stated this a while back for Hurricane Irma because the hurricane looks like a skeletal figure's face (The Grim Reaper) are in error, the same goes for those speak of conspiracy in regards to said hurricanes, including this one.

Also I'd like to add that $10 million was transferred from FEMA to ICE, I don't have sympathy for both of them for their actions, as well as The Red Cross who made fool's those half my family originates from.

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@Anna I guess so, makes one easy to deduce, that's like finding out Bruce Wayne is the Batman, minus the shock value, for in this case, we already know who is behind the mask.

On another forum, if you have multiple names/accounts, one can be called out by an admin/members or even banned, or given warning. at the other Christian forums I use to be on, someone got blasted by an admin on the entire forum. Mainly when you have some folks who agree with themselves or liking their own comments from the other account.

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4 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Technically, you would need at least 2 million persons to make the plural "millions" part come true, and we would evidently have needed Armageddon to come sometime around 2016 in order for 2 million 98+ year-olds to still be alive, who had just born in March 1918. Perhaps, some worldwide estimates of the number of 99+ year-olds in 2017 could have been around to potentially survive Armageddon.

Technically yes, but practically, we know, and everyone else knows, when that statement was made it was not referring to babies born in 1918 and people living till they were nearly a 100. It was was talking about those who were in the audience at the time and perhaps of average age, which would probably be 35 to 45 year olds?

 

4 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Remember that the "great crowd" of Revelation 7 were still going to heaven along with the 144,000 kings and priests, according to Russell's and Rutherford's teachings.

Actually I never knew that!

4 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Understanding the original prophecy in its full context is a good idea, in order to understand how and why the references to it have evolved over time. Maybe in another thread?

Yes please. I don't know much about it. I just know that this talk was given and that obviously it was.....well......wishful thinking at best and totally false at worst. And I guess it had a lot to do with the 1925 campaign.

What I wondered was if our latest publications have mentioned anything about it. I can look it up too...

PS. The last mention of "millions now living will never die" that I have in my WT CD library is from 2009 WT . The article was a life experience entitled "Ninety Years Ago I Began to ‘Remember My Grand Creator" one excerpt says this:

"Some months before this incident at school, our family had moved to live near Glasgow in Scotland. About that time, Father attended the public talk entitled “Millions Now Living Will Never Die.” It changed his life. Father and Mother began studying the Bible and often talked together about God’s Kingdom and the blessings to come. I thank God that from then on my parents brought me up to love God and to put my trust in him."— WT/2009/7/15

Most likely today this brother is dead...

 

 

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Thah'ss  a  OK, AllenSmith34 ... I wrote yor a name on a piece of ah paper and gave it to Guido ... who has knife scars from his eyebrows to his stomach, that never heal, and who has a very creative take on civilized behavior, and a  like a Lion when you remove a thorn from its paw ... never forgets a favor.

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5 hours ago, Anna said:

And I guess it had a lot to do with the 1925 campaign.

Yes, the Millions campaign was the 1925 campaign. The 1918 sermon was based on the 1925 date as found in the 1917 book, "The Finished Mystery." The "canvas" offer for that book, remember, only required that people stay alive until 1925 in order to be among the "millions" who would never die.

By, 1920, the entire talk was published and expanded upon a bit, in the booklet "Millions Now Living Will Never Die." They would never die because millions of people alive in 1918 would still be alive in 1925. By 1921, the new book, "The Harp of God" came out, which also used the 1925 promises as a theme. In fact, note what is embossed on early covers of that famous book. If it's hard to read, it's repeated on the inside title page. "Proof Conclusive that Millions now Living will never Die." (This was removed in the 1928, 2nd edition.)

image.pngimage.png

It was advertised in newspapers with the year printed in the advertisement. The following example from April 1921, saying: "to apply it to ourselves requires positive knowledge based upon indisputable evidence. Thousands of profound Bible scholars can prove from Bible prophecies which have been fulfiled during the last 5 years that those living until the year 1925 can live forever if they choose to do so." ". . . [H]ear and consider definite Scriptural proof for this proclamation."

image.png

 

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40 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

The 1918 sermon was based on the 1925 date as found in the 1917 book, "The Finished Mystery." The "canvas" offer for that book, remember, only required that people stay alive until 1925 in order to be among the "millions" who would never die.

Aaaah, I thought there was a book that mentioned the "millions will never die" not just a sermon. I am connecting the dots now, thank you! It looks like Rutherford also authored a book with that title. (Also I get how the millions couldn't have referred only to the Bible students, as there wasn't a million of them yet).

So since this topic is about 1975, it doesn't apply to this, however the question regarding honesty is the same, are we being honest about the millions and 1925? How is the statement "proof conclusive" being  explained today, since the proof was obviously false. And statements such as this:

54 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

"to apply it to ourselves requires positive knowledge based upon indisputable evidence. Thousands of profound Bible scholars can prove from Bible prophecies which have been fulfiled during the last 5 years that those living until the year 1925 can live forever if they choose to do so."   ". . . [H]ear and consider definite Scriptural proof for this proclamation."

 

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9 hours ago, Anna said:

Aaaah, I thought there was a book that mentioned the "millions will never die" not just a sermon. I am connecting the dots now, thank you! It looks like Rutherford also authored a book with that title.

In my last post I called it a booklet, instead of a book because I've only seen it in soft-cover. And because it was 128 pages long and 20 cents, this was a little smaller than the format they usually called a book.

9 hours ago, Anna said:

So since this topic is about 1975, it doesn't apply to this, however the question regarding honesty is the same, are we being honest about the millions and 1925? How is the statement "proof conclusive" being  explained today, since the proof was obviously false.

I do believe that some "diversionary" games have been played with this, since we can't make it go away. I don't think it started out in any sinister way, but there have been some real problems in the methods used to minimize it. There are a lot of parallels between 1925 and 1975, which might seem disturbing if looked at too closely, but the real problem, I think is that the conditions at the beginning of the post 1914 era were of "Biblical proportions" in the sense of how the world probably surprised itself at the viciousness and scope of the war, and famine and pestilence were also of "Biblical proportions" especially the Spanish Influenza. The 1975 era required a bit more propaganda to create the necessary levels of fear to make it seem to be of "Biblical proportions" but as G.R. pointed out, we weren't creating that propaganda, we were just collecting all doomsday propaganda that fit our assumed timetable. We were collecting it because it fit other pieces of the puzzle, like the generation of people who would not pass away, and who were around 15 in 1914, making them 90 years old in 1975.

But these supposedly "perfect storms" of conditions can't work without someone in authority driving it. Especially not with the training of Bible Student and Witness mentality. We are sheep. We can be told how to feel, what to fear, when to hide, when to come out and be bold. In the case of 1925 it took a man who was willing to drive the point home over and over again that these were the strongest evidences that the Bible Students would ever see about anything like this. And by a man who needed to understand evidence and proof for his previous livelihood as an attorney. Yet this same man was willing to forego all real evidence for the sloppiest kind of thinking:

The basic idea was that there would be a "Great Jubilee" and -- without any Biblical support -- he agreed that 70 sounded like a good number of 50-year jubilees to make a "Great Jubilee." 70 times 50 is 3,500, so all he needed was to agree to a significant starting point that was about 3,500 years earlier and which would end a few years after the current year. After 1914 failed, Bible Students (in 1916) were already looking at the idea (based on an assumed but flimsy chronology) that the previous jubilee had ended around 1875, and they figured that the next one was 1925. Russell didn't like the idea, but it had already been offered as a question for him. This was because if they started it at one of the popular (but flimsy) dates for the entrance of Israel into the Promised Land, then 3,500 years supposedly ended in 1925.

This was how flimsy and unbiblical the actual calculation was for 1925. Of course, they also had the supposed "double" punishment for Israel's sins which they took to mean that the number of years would be duplicated for the time of spiritual Israel. They found some supposed historical dates for the final desolation of Judea in 73 C.E. based on Eusebius and Josephus, and found a way to make this look significant (33 + 40) and then used this and some vague notions about how much had happened already since 1914: Jewish Zionism, Spanish Flu, Russian Revolution, etc.

 

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5 hours ago, Anna said:

How is the statement "proof conclusive" being  explained today, since the proof was obviously false.

Is it more that the conclusions were false? Evolution and creation use the same "proof", just draw different conclusions.

Here's a question.

Since 1975, 10.5 million have been baptised. Add in the av pubs of '75 gives 12.6 million. The average publisher count for  2017 was 8.2 million.Allowing for the current crude death rate, 1.7 million have died since '75, so at least 2.7 million have gone AWOL or disfellowshipped. (Approximations of course).

Why is this?

Is it: Lack of confidence in leadership? Disobedience to moral requirements? Lack of desire to preach? Preference for materialistic goals? Fear of man? Expected "end" took too long? Stumbled over other's immorality? Believe apostate distortions?

Or is it: Don't believe we are in last days? Don't believe 1914CE was when time ran out for Satan? Don't believe Governing Body are spirit appointed and directed? Disillusioned over end-time teachings?  Suspicions of financial irregularity? Don't agree with "shunning" non-dependant relatives? Don't agree with prohibition on primary blood components only?

Or what?

 

 

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11 hours ago, Gone Away said:

Why is this?

Is it: Lack of confidence in leadership? Disobedience to moral requirements? Lack of desire to preach? Preference for materialistic goals? Fear of man? Expected "end" took too long? Stumbled over other's immorality? Believe apostate distortions?

Or is it: Don't believe we are in last days? Don't believe 1914CE was when time ran out for Satan? Don't believe Governing Body are spirit appointed and directed? Disillusioned over end-time teachings?  Suspicions of financial irregularity? Don't agree with "shunning" non-dependant relatives? Don't agree with prohibition on primary blood components only?

Or what?

I guess you've pretty much completed the list. I can't think of anything else....

Although I must add that some of these reasons in themselves are not enough for some to quit. There are some in the truth, and faithful, in spite of feeling some of those things on the list. And there are many who just don't even know about some of these issues....heck, many don't know why we believe in 1914. They assume it's because of WW1 and that's good enough for them. Some things are just too complicated to analyze and "make sure of", and so they remain kind of blissfully covered over. I agree, knowing about some of these things can be faith shaking. Ignorance is bliss indeed. And yet, there is so much that makes sense also. To me, at least. As an organization we are a work in progress and in the past we were made out to be...well..."almost" infallible. It is only in recent years (and perhaps due to unfulfilled interpretations) have we, as an organization, admitted that we are not always going to be right. More to the point; the Governing Body isn't always going to be right, in fact they are only "scratching the surface" (Br. Herd quote). It is a very difficult thing sometimes to trust someone who has failed you in the past. And yet this is what is being asked of us. But the good thing is we have an infallible source to fall back on, the Bible. So in my opinion, when there are scriptures that are a little ambiguous, but are interpreted in a certain way by the Slave, from past experience, should I be blamed if I find it hard to embrace this particular interpretation, and  would rather wait and see?

It is a very difficult thing. Do you think it's possible to have a good and close relationship with Jehovah, and yet be wary sometimes about what the Slave says? In the past these two things were inseparable. If you were not agreeing with the Slave, you were automatically against Jehovah.

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13 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

and there never has been any way to fire these charlatans, and there isn't any way to fire them today.

I wouldn't call them charlatans. I think they truly believed what they said, and if they tried to cover some failings, then that is just because they were human. There are plenty of examples in the scriptures of God's chosen ones doing this or that. The only human mentioned in the Bible that did everything perfectly was Jesus. And I wouldn't worry about firing someone, that is God's business. Also, everyone will stand in front of God and render an account.

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3 hours ago, Anna said:

Do you think it's possible to have a good and close relationship with Jehovah, and yet be wary sometimes about what the Slave says?

Wary may not be completely the right reaction because it sounds a bit untrusting and tense  (wary= feeling or showing caution about possible dangers or problems.)

Jehovah counsels us appropriately I feel. 

Apply Psalm 146:3 : "Do not put your trust in princes nor in a son of man, who cannot bring salvation."

Balance that with Ps 4:4: "Be agitated, but do not sin. Have your say in your heart, upon your bed, and keep silent"

and 1 Cor.13:4, 7: "Love.....believes all things."

Then we will be happy.  ☺️

 

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8 hours ago, JW Insider said:

I think you might be confusing "evidence" and "proof."

Probably not worth a debate here: 

proof
pruːf
noun
1.evidence or argument establishing a fact or the truth of a statement.
synonyms:    evidence, verification, corroboration, authentication, confirmation, certification, validation, attestation, demonstration, substantiation, witness, testament.

evidence
ˈɛvɪd(ə)ns
noun
1. the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid.
synonyms:    proof, confirmation, verification, substantiation, corroboration, affirmation, authentication, attestation, documentation

I think what I meant was that people draw a variety of conclusions from different marshallings of the same facts.

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On 9/13/2018 at 1:04 PM, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

I understand that it is being discussed at World HQ running a special issue of the Watchtower, explaining the "signs from the heavens ..." that Hurricane Florence will be picking up sharks from the Atlantic Ocean, and dumping them in front yards, back yards, and on old peoples homes.

This of course was not factual, it was a satire lampooning the fact that the Society has for a hundred years  provided 15% strong spiritual truths  mixed with 85% irrational cluelessness and false prophesies of various sorts, and clueless observations that make no sense at all, before, during, or after their proclamation ... with the stated or implied imprimatur of God's backing.

There is the saying "Once burned, twice shy!" which sums up my feelings, as after twenty times and more of being "burned" I think all rational people are ENTITLED to be "wary".

Faith is one thing.

Gullibility, is idolatry.

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Here are some "facts" to illustrate the point.

Sharknado 2 the Best of.mp4

When you for a HUNDRED YEARS  deliberately scare people  with mental imagry WORSE THAN THIS ... and like this truly awful  and nutty shark film,.... you go from being  a bearer of light to the world .... to a producer of  irrational horror so bad .....  it becomes both revulsive and comedic.

We have been taught to fear EVERYTHING ... and it has a price.

We banish our own people for the slightest difference in conscience ... and now the Nations are returning the favor, just as Israel was chastised by the Babylonians ... for just cause.

Everything that goes around ..... comes around.

For those in Rio Linda, these clips were NOT a documentary.

 

 

 

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11 hours ago, JW Insider said:

But even less controversial issues were common. When the goals and quotas of special pioneers, regular pioneers and publishers were set, it was stated that these quotas were 'what the Lord wants.' Basically, if the Lord says pioneers need to get 100 hours a month, then, Who are we to go against the Lord?

I wonder even if anyone sees anything wrong with goals being set.  I thought everyone would give their best - so I don't see how they could be set by someone else.  What does the account of the widow teach?

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