1975 was in the past. Are we HONEST about it TODAY?

[JW Insider]

2 minutes ago, Anna said:

The other day in FS a sister who I admire and who has her head screwed on right, made a surprising comment. She said that if the Slave told her to do anything she would do it.

To most it just means that we have faith in the Slave that they will not ask us to do anything unreasonable, even though they have asked us to obey in the future even if it does seem unreasonable. I don't think they will ask us to do anything more unreasonable than some of the unreasonable requests on blood doctrine inconsistencies, organ transplants, divorce for "spiritual" adultery (but not for areas of immorality they have not yet defined under the scope of porneia), etc.

They will, evidently, ask us to believe things that are unreasonable or even patently untrue. Men in leadership positions can't usually go more than a few weeks without needing someone to believe something that isn't reasonable or true. That's also the nature of human leadership. That seems to get worse with committees as often as it gets better.

[Evacuated]

4 hours ago, JW Insider said:

But is it honest?

Isn't all of this just a person (s) stating what they believe at the time of writing? Why all the hot air regarding honesty?

[Evacuated]

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

they have asked us to obey in the future even if it does seem unreasonable

Some probably thought these instructions were unreasonable (at the time):  

 “So Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in yourselves." John 6:53

Or this: "After these things the Lord designated seventy others and sent them forth by twos in advance of him into every city and place to which he himself was going to come." Luke 10:1.

Or even this :"Let the man on the housetop not come down to take the goods out of his house; and let the man in the field not return to the house to pick up his outer garment." Matt.24:17-18.

[JW Insider]

4 hours ago, Gone Away said:

Isn't all of this just a person (s) stating what they believe at the time of writing? Why all the hot air regarding honesty?

I guess it depends on how seriously we consider "honesty" and "truth" to be in our teaching:

• (1 Timothy 4:15, 16) 15 Ponder over these things; be absorbed in them, so that your advancement may be plainly seen by all people. 16 Pay constant attention to yourself and to your teaching. Persevere in these things, for by doing this you will save both yourself and those who listen to you.
• (Philippians 4:-8) .5 Let your reasonableness become known to all men. The Lord is near. . . . 8 Finally, brothers, whatever things are true, whatever things are of serious concern, . . . continue considering these things.

• (Proverbs 14:25) . . .A true witness saves lives,. . .

• (2 Timothy 2:18) 18 These very [men] have deviated from the truth, . . .  and they are subverting the faith of some.

• (James 3:1-5) 3 Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, knowing that we will receive heavier judgment. . . . . 5 So, too, the tongue is a small part of the body, and yet it makes great brags. See how small a fire it takes to set a great forest ablaze!

• (John 4:22-24) . . .. 23 Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshippers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for indeed, the Father is looking for ones like these to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit, and those worshipping him must worship with spirit and truth.”

  (John 14:15-17) . . .. 16 And I will ask the Father and he will give you another helper to be with you forever, 17 the spirit of the truth, which the world cannot receive, because it neither sees it nor knows it. You know it, because it remains with you and is in you.

  (Psalm 40:10, 11) . . .I do not hide your loyal love and your truth in the great congregation.” 11 O Jehovah, do not withhold your mercy from me. May your loyal love and your truth constantly safeguard me.

  (Psalm 51:6)  6 Look! You find pleasure in truth in the inner person; Teach my innermost self true wisdom.

If a person is stating something that's untrue, then, yes, it's true that they might just be stating a falsehood that they believe to be true. But in that case what is the reason for the lack of care, the lack of attempted verification, the reason for the willingness to believe something false when it often would have been no trouble at all to make a true statement in its place. Is there a motive that tends to make someone blame others when they themselves are to blame? Is there a motive for a string of repeated falsehoods, even when the person believed each falsehood to be true at the time. Should we learn from our mistakes? Is it worse if the promoter of their own private interpretations of scripture is forced to defend against clear scriptural counsel in order to continue promoting a private interpretation of scripture.

If this type of dishonesty keeps happening, even though it requires kicking against the goads, then there is likely a problem worth looking into.

 

[Evacuated]

17 hours ago, JW Insider said:

I guess it depends on how seriously we consider "honesty" and "truth" to be in our teaching:

I agree this should be a prime concern, "we wish to conduct ourselves honestly in all things" Heb 13:11

Of course hindsight is a great instructor, and a good principle is that found in 1Corinthians 13:7 "love believes all things"

So, as long as we keep in mind Jehovah's role in all these matters: "all things are naked and openly exposed to the eyes of the one to whom we must give an account." Heb.4:13.

This will save us becoming "overly righteous" regarding the mistakes of others.

[Grey Reformer]

On 9/3/2018 at 8:17 AM, JW Insider said:

But when we try to convince people today about what was really said back then, what is our purpose in only selectively choosing things that were said and printed in Watchtower publications? Is it possible to be dishonest by what we omit when we defend this topic?

Then what's your point about taking the wrong approach to a topic that you know to be false. Former witnesses distort the facts, as it's done here. So, what's the difference if you call yourself a witness and it amounts to the same distortion.

Who is being dishonest here?

[JW Insider]

4 minutes ago, Grey Reformer said:

Then what's your point about taking the wrong approach to a topic that you know to be false. Former witnesses distort the facts, as it's done here. So, what's the difference if you call yourself a witness and it amounts to the same distortion.

I don't want to state anything that is not true. Yes, I've seen former Witnesses distort the facts about 1975. I've heard claims that the Watch Tower publications actually predicted that Armageddon would be here by 1975. The people who claim that are not being honest. That was never said in the WTS publications. A couple years ago, on this forum (or jw-archive.org) I even pointed out that someone had tampered with a recording of Fred Franz to make it look like some things were said in a way that they were never said. That showed the depths of dishonesty that people will sink to. And there are very many more subtle ways that people show their lack of honesty, sometimes from opposers and sometimes from defenders.

Therefore, if any of us want to be able to honestly defend against these accusations, we should know exactly what's true and what isn't. We shouldn't just deny, deny, deny. But we should also be aware of what was said, and not just accept things out of context. We should get a full and comprehensive historical view of the issue so that we are not guilty of cherry-picking various quotes and examples and anecdotes out of context.

So if you believe I have distorted anything about the issue, please bring up the specific example and your evidence. We've seen so many examples of persons on all sides of this issue, who just like to state things without evidence, but this just means they are promoting distortion themselves.

1 hour ago, Grey Reformer said:

Who is being dishonest here?

Anyone who makes claims that are not backed up by evidence might just be showing a lack of care about truth and honesty. That's not necessarily dishonesty, and it might just be based on strong opinions or personal experiences, or believing what one thinks one must believe to keep small pieces of their world view (belief structures) from collapsing. But people who make claims that are contradicted by evidence and who cannot or will not try to present relevant evidence to support their claims, well, unfortunately, those people really are being dishonest, even if their motive is to hang on to an ideology or belief structure they know to be important.

[Grey Reformer]

43 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

Therefore, if any of us want to be able to honestly defend against these accusations, we should know exactly what's true and what isn't. We shouldn't just deny, deny, deny.

Indeed. Who's denying that former witnesses are the least honest people alive? My question is, why then defend their views with your own opposition and with the same distorted publicans they use here by so many of you. So, no one should deny, deny, deny the falsehoods anyone says about the Watchtower and 1975.

[Grey Reformer]

44 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

Anyone who makes claims that are not backed up by evidence might just be showing a lack of care about truth and honesty. That's not necessarily dishonesty, and it might just be based on strong opinions or personal experiences, or believing what one thinks one must believe to keep small pieces of their world view (belief structures) from collapsing. But people who make claims that are contradicted by evidence and who cannot or will not try to present relevant evidence to support their claims, well, unfortunately, those people really are being dishonest, even if their motive is to hang on to an ideology or belief structure they know to be important.

I believe you fall short on this one since it can be applied to you and others here.

[Srecko Sostar]

Some WT publications in articles that talk about the end of 6,000 years, and these are the well-known passages on the Internet, even today show that people of that time had great expectations about 1975. And today's reader, by reading same quotes, who did not live in that time and euphoria about a possible future, may come to the conclusion that JW expected change on global scale (nothing new in fact,  IBS and then JW expected that change more then one time, and still now talking "the end is very near")
Is there a sentence in an article that speaks directly or indirectly about some details about 1975 may not be a crucial thing that have to give us an answer today to the question of truth and honesty of WT, and then of the JW member too.
JW brothers and sisters in the time before 1975 had the expectation that change might occur. Did those who had hoped for the new world were a lot or a few, what motives they had and why, that is irrelevant !! WT has given material, spiritual food that has led to the warming up of interest for the possibility in coming of Armageddon and for the Kingdom that will rule over the Earth.

This very fact how 1975 is mentioned not only by ex-JW, but also by JW members and was/is of public speaks and in WT magazines show how something was controversial and  disputable in connection/with 1975.

I was baptized in 1977, started study "blue bomb" in 1975. And have memorized that 1975 was year that some JW with whom i had contacts (elders too)  expected how something will happen. 

Today, I drove a car to the service and returned by bus to the city. One sister, her husband is elder, recognized me after many years and she knew I was no longer JW, started talking to me. She said how she is very happy for getting  new job (in school) after been unemployment for some time, and now can easier to repay the mortgage. In the end she told me that she is hoping  I will return to the assembly because "now is very close to the end".   What is interesting, she and her husband was single workers at Zagreb Betel. They get married and continue work in Betel. After some years must left because personal problems, She became suicidal. Her husband was one to whom i send many quotes from articles, before few years, in English language, about some issues and 1975 also. He never responded to my e-mails. 

Well, JW people living from generation to generation with similar "now is very close to the end". 

[Srecko Sostar]

Maybe is  that what happened before, but also this what is happening now in the WT corporation, like this one;

Dallas police officer was charged on Sunday with manslaughter in the fatal shooting of a neighbor, who authorities said was shot by the officer when she walked into an apartment she thought was her own and mistook the man living there for an intruder.

The bizarre sequence of events unfolded after the police officer, Amber Guyger, 30, had just completed a shift late on Thursday and was still in uniform as she returned to an apartment she erroneously believed was hers, police said.

 

[JW Insider]

1 hour ago, Grey Reformer said:

So, no one should deny, deny, deny the falsehoods anyone says about the Watchtower and 1975.

False. Everyone should deny falsehoods.

1 hour ago, Grey Reformer said:

Who's denying that former witnesses are the least honest people alive?

I agree that former Witnesses can be dishonest. I wouldn't judge them as the least honest people alive.  I have seen evidence of some dishonesty among some, but don't think any human even has a way to know if they are more or less honest than current Witnesses. My guess is that they would be about the same, on average -- less honest on some topics and more honest on some topics, depending on whether they are trying to promote or protect a specific ideology.

1 hour ago, Grey Reformer said:

My question is, why then defend their views with your own opposition and with the same distorted publicans they use here by so many of you.

I don't defend the views of ex-Witnesses except where the evidence happens to coincide with their views, in which case we don't have much choice if we are honest. I'm opposed to dishonesty so I try not to deny evidence. If some of that evidence is found in their distorted publications, we should still be willing to look at the same evidence, even while identifying how they have distorted the use or conclusions made from it. This does NOT mean we will agree with their views, especially if they are distorting the evidence. Furthermore, we don't even need to look at their views to make a judgment on the accuracy and relevance of the evidence they present.

By "evidence" here, I'm referring specifically to quotations from Watch Tower publications. After checking a few hundred of these quotations found on many different sites, I get the impression that ex-Witnesses are even more careful than Witnesses when it comes to accuracy of the actual quotes. I've also seen some misquotes and misuse of context, mistakes, and outright dishonesty from some ex-Witnesses, too. But for the most part I think they realize that their argument is immediately lost, if a Witness were to find an inaccurate quote.