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1975 was in the past. Are we HONEST about it TODAY?


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That’s right, those that stayed alive until 1975 got to be part of the 6000 years existence of mankind, and they also got to see the dramatic global changes that started humanity downward for the worse. So, yes! Stay alive until 1975.

True Christians became one step closer to God’s fulfillment. No one, but no one can change that with distorted Watchtower publications. People can read ALL of them in its proper context, and perhaps experience the delight 1975 brought to those loyally serving god. They savored and relished every minute of it. To know at some distant point, none of this will matter, for all of us will be judged according to our deeds.

There seems to be a disconnect when it comes to sincerity. Former witnesses here never have any.

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False. Everyone should deny falsehoods. I agree that former Witnesses can be dishonest. I wouldn't judge them as the least honest people alive.  I have seen evidence of some dishonesty among some, but don't think any human even has a way to know if they are more or less honest than current Witnesses. My guess is that they would be about the same, on average -- less honest on some topics and more honest on some topics, depending on whether they are trying to promote or protect a specific i

Exactly! I gave actual facts and you just keep giving non-specific generalities and complaints that a small percentage of the actual facts and evidence from Watch Tower publications were also found on an apostate website, and therefore you seem to feel that they can therefore be ignored or distorted. Unfortunately, this is the kind of thing that sincere people will see right through, and they will see us as more and more dishonest. It's disappointing. How about some actual facts?

Sounds like a waste of time. But I'm retired, so I'll tell you what I would come up with: ..."millions now living will never die."... This was a risky prophecy to make. But the risk probably didn't seem too high at the time since, after the failure of 1914, Rutherford said that people had more on which to base their faith in this prophecy than Noah had on which to base his faith in Jehovah telling him there would be a Flood. He said that there was more Bible evidence for 1925 than there wa

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Example:

Because of my love for dogs, my heart firmly and absolutely believes my dogs who have died will be waiting for me at the Rainbow Bridge. (Look it up).  There is absolutely no shred of doubt in my heart. None whatsoever. Anywhere.

My mind knows, based on what is true, that it is a complete fantasy.

I am stuck believing with ALL my heart and soul, something that is a complete fantasy, and is not true.

In that regard, but about different subjects, you and I share the same affliction.

We have brains ... we must use them.

That is what adults are supposed to do.

As Yoda says, if I remember correctly .... : "There is only DO .... There is no try"

Do or Do not There is no try Yoda.mp4
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Not wish to offend Mr. G. Reformer. But one possible explanation why you G.R. has (and all other, as me too before few years) this feelings and attitude is, as i see, in problem (it is not problem in fact but tool by with what we as person can move in two possible direction)  called Cognitive Dissonance.

All people that is/was facing with at least two opposite information are entering in this inner condition of brain, of intellect, of soul, of spirituality and found himself in very big trouble.     

You can deny all information's, even facts and stick to your belief in order to "survive" and to stay where you are now (in JWorg) because it is "easier" for mind and heart. By staying in JWorg option you will not destroy your "imagination". Imagination created by WT and by you. On this mutual project you put much efforts, energy, love, faith, money, health, time etc. To leave it, it means a defeat. Defeat for you. Not for WT. They will survive as Company, because they ARE Company.

But you, you can lose everything you built, for many years perhaps. That is very scary!

But dreaded idea to abandon, left  this "safe WT port" makes you, and many other JW,  ready to continue to believe in WT deception.

:((    

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I stay with Jehovah's Witnesses because the core theology is sound, and true .... and not because of the 85% arrogant self serving drivel I have to endure, and the resultant damage on the Brotherhood ... for three reasons:

1.) I appreciate what is actually true is exclusive to Jehovah's Witnesses, and there is nowhere else to go, and

2.) I have learned to expect as a natural right NOTHING from anybody, and

3.) I do not fear death as some do .... might be a good chance to test what I think I know.

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There seems to be a consensus that bigger fonts drive some kind of a point. Being outraged with distorted facts is exactly the position the public holds by those that remember or consider. Nowadays, it seldom does to the outside world. It matters to ex-witnesses the most since they plaster it throughout the internet. It matters here to keep a forgotten distorted view to promote that same agenda.

That means there is nothing different here that merits a good Christian discussion. It is simply an excuse to an end means of a negative portrayal of a failing system.

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4 minutes ago, Alithís Gnosis said:

There seems to be a consensus that bigger fonts drive some kind of a point.

You are right, Alithis Gnosis:

Some people will never, ever get the point of logic, and increased font size will not help them.

You can educate an ignorant man ... but there is nothing that can be done for stupid.

 

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47 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Not wish to offend Mr. G. Reformer. But one possible explanation why you G.R. has (and all other, as me too before few years) this feelings and attitude is, as i see, in problem (it is not problem in fact but tool by with what we as person can move in two possible direction)  called Cognitive Dissonance.

No one here could possibly offend me Srecko. I can’t say that about me offending others because of my views, here. Cognitive Dissonance theory can be applied by those that are disheartened by my viewpoints. The truth usually hits at the heart of those that strongly oppose such logic.

A smear campaign only brings out to light, what Christ meant about negative discourse. Evil. If you place close attention to 1 Timothy 2:8–15, I mean really place close attention, then your theory is on solid ground. God made sure he thought about everyday problems with the best outcome. There is nothing that can’t be applied through scripture with the proper wisdom and reasoning.

This is why ad hominem attacks are a source of desperation to some, instead of frustration by others.

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4 hours ago, Grey Reformer said:

The truth usually hits at the heart of those that strongly oppose such logic. A smear campaign only brings out to light, what Christ meant about negative discourse. Evil. . . . This is why ad hominem attacks are a source of desperation to some, instead of frustration by others.

This is just a small aside, for entertainment purposes. But I was reminded that it might be worth mentioning when I read about smear campaigns, ad hominem attacks, desperation, frustration and negative discourse.

A lot of people have probably noticed that over on the right side of the page you can usually find a little box like this one:

image.png

Out of habit I glance at it whenever I read a recent post, for reasons that might become obvious in a minute. Less than an hour ago "Grey Reformer" disappeared and I suspected that another name might take its place. Sure enough, within a couple minutes "Gray Reformer" was no longer online and the name "Alithís Gnosis" took its place. I knew what to expect, because I recognized the name as an alias of someone who evidently keeps a couple dozen such alias names. I expected a barrage of down votes or laughter votes or "sad votes." This time it was a short campaign of "sad votes." Then, as expected, "Alithís Gnosis" disappeared from the "Who's Online" list and the name "Grey Reformer" was found it its place again.

image.png

Probably just a coincidence ?, but the same thing happened a few days ago when another of his aliases went offline (I won't say who this time)  and it was immediately replaced by "Grey Reformer." This was right after that other easily recognized alias also took the opportunity to offer a short barrage of down votes. Full disclosure: I have seen this same coincidence happen literally dozens of times with the same set of aliases.

Coincidences don't necessarily give a true picture, but they can certainly be entertaining.

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6 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Your homework (should you decide to accept) is to print out the above CANVAS on an 8-1/2x11" piece of paper and find the six things that are deliberate lies, and write it  on the margins of your paper.

Sounds like a waste of time. But I'm retired, so I'll tell you what I would come up with:

  • ..."millions now living will never die."... This was a risky prophecy to make. But the risk probably didn't seem too high at the time since, after the failure of 1914, Rutherford said that people had more on which to base their faith in this prophecy than Noah had on which to base his faith in Jehovah telling him there would be a Flood. He said that there was more Bible evidence for 1925 than there was for 1914. But it turned out to be a false prophecy. So it turned out to be a "lie" in the Biblical sense, but it might not have been intentional if the human sources of this false prophecy believed it, and those who repeated it had faith in that human source.
  • "'The Finished Mystery,' the posthumous work of Pastor Russell" . . . This book quoted many times from Russell, but was definitely not the posthumous work of Pastor Russell. (For that matter, the title of the book was a lie, because it promoted itself as the final explanation of the mysteries of Ezekiel and Revelation, yet almost every explanation of the "mystery" in it is now considered to be false.) The Watch Tower publications explained why they called it the "posthumous" work of Pastor Russell in a very odd way. It was because, as a spirit creature who had just died, Russell was supposedly still alive in the spirit world (heaven) in 1917: "Though Pastor Russell has passed beyond the veil, he is still managing every feature of the harvest work." according to "The Finished Mystery" page 144. It was clearly believed that Russell could still continue to influence the Watch Tower Society's publications in a way analogous to how Jehovah influenced the Bible writers.
  • "Since 1881 everybody ridiculed Pastor Russell . . ." Not everybody. Some believed him. Most people in the world had still never heard of him. According to current WT publications, many created a "cult" around him. Rhetorical hyperbole, not necessarily a "lie."
  • "Since 1881. . . the International Bible Students Association" . . . The International Bible Students Association [IBSA] did not exist until 1914 when it was incorporated in London. Before then Bible Students used the simple name "Bible Students" or "Associated Bible Students." Some refused a name, and some even called themselves Russellites and names related to Millennial Dawn, etc. This is not a "lie," just a potentially misleading ambiguity.
  • "Since 1881. . . Pastor Russell's [and IBSA's] message that the Bible prophesied a world war in 1914." The Bible never prophesied a single world war between multiple nations, but this could be a matter of interpretation. The Bible never prophesied anything whatsoever to do with the year 1914. In 1881, and for the next 20-some years, Russell and the IBSA promised that 1914 would be the year when the expected worldwide trouble would end, not begin. All human systems would collapse in 1914, governments, institutions, religions. There would be chaos for several months, but there would be no earthly governments remaining who would be capable of prosecuting such a war. The 7/15/1894 Watch Tower, p.226 said: "But bear in mind that the end of 1914 is not the date for the beginning, but for the end of the time of trouble."
  • "but the war came on time." Very misleading. By the time late 1913 had rolled around, Russell pretty much gave up hope and faith in this 1914 date and moved it to 1915. For a few months even into 1914, Russell even gave up altogether and talked about there being no chance of all that was expected actually happening on time, and he conceded that they must have been wrong, and talked about the prospect that 100 years from now [2014], people might wonder what all this talk had been about. As it was, in about 1904 they had moved the expectation of the great time of trouble to 1914 (sometimes 1915) and began holding to the idea that this time of trouble might happen around October 1st or 2nd 1914. A world war broke out in July and gave them hope that this might be the beginnings of a worldwide collapse of all nations, governments, religions and other human institutions, where the only government with continued authority would be that of literal Israel in Palestine, and God would take a spiritual Israel to rule from heaven in 1914. It turned out, instead, to be a world war between several nations, and many more nations existed after the war, than were numbered before the war -- the opposite of the expectation of all nations disintegrating. Also Israel didn't get back on the map until decades later, and Israel never did become the only remaining human government on earth. Nothing predicted about 1914 ever came true. The most important things proved to be quite the opposite.
  • "and now the message of his final work" . . . Again with the false attribution to Russell who did not work on this book. It was written by George Fisher and Clayton Woodworth along with the claim that Russell had communicated from beyond the veil as a spirit creature to write it posthumously (after he died).
  • "It is an absolute fact. . ." . . . The phrase most often prefixed to bigger than usual lies, especially to sell products. You don't usually have to look at the next phrase to know that it won't usually be true.
  • "It is an absolute fact, stated in every book of the Bible. . ."  Like I said, you didn't need to look. It's absolutely false.
  • "It is an absolute fact. . . foretold by every prophet of the Bible" . . . Just like with the books, it turned out that it was not predicted by any book of the Bible nor any prophet of the Bible. Calling it thus is just an embarrassing way of trying to say you are a prophet speaking in Jehovah's name, sticking your neck out further to make sure that people will later see you as a false prophet if your fantastic guesses don't happen to come true.
  • "well worth a few evenings' time for investigation." . . . Quite the opposite. In fact, anyone who wants to discuss the book today among Witnesses will usually be suspected of apostasy. Even though it is still touted as a book that supposedly had the "ring of truth" no one can go more than a couple pages in the book without coming across something that Witnesses now recognize as false, if not embarrassingly false. And remember, the purpose of this investigation was to prove to yourself that Armageddon was culminating in 1925.
  • "The Golden Age" . . . The idea was that the Golden Age had already begun when the Millennium dawned back in 1874 and various advances in the world, new technology, and even medical advances and theories (that turned out to be from quacks and fraudsters) were supposed to give evidence that the Millennium had started 45 or more years earlier.
  • "both for two seventy-five (don't say dollars)" . . .  This speaks for itself. Internally, the persons who distributed most of these books were spoken of as selling the book, and book salesman could make a profit if they sold enough. The sales process was not so different from the way "colporteurs" in those days were selling books along with Fuller Brushes, Carter's Little Liver Pills, Bibles, Encyclopedias, etc. (Books by Mark Twain [Samuel Clemens] were a profitable moneymaker for colporteurs for many years. See below.)  If you followed the sales instructions and learned the pitch you could make a profit, whether you believed in the content or quality of the material or not.

This reminds me of a story I heard about colporteurs who used to sell the books of Mark Twain in the late 1800s and early 1900's. They could be had in about 4 or more levels of quality. The idea was also to upsell them on a better quality book if the householder agreed to a lower quality, or if they said no to the price of the highest quality (leatherbound, embossed, lithographs, etc.) then they might finally agree to a lower quality. It was a very irritating process to the householder. The goal of course was to get them moved to absolute most they might pay, so they might even split it up with part now and part cash on delivery. Just a quick search didn't find me the story, but I did notice this in a book called "Mark Twain's Road to Bankruptcy," below. You can see that "colporteurs" were not considered the best of society at the time.

image.png

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5 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Probably just a coincidence ?, but the same thing happened a few days ago when another of his aliases went offline (I won't say who this time)  and it was immediately replaced by "Grey Reformer." This was right after that other easily recognized alias also took the opportunity to offer a short barrage of down votes. Full disclosure: I have seen this same coincidence happen literally dozens of times with the same set of aliases.

That's a good one. First I am Allan, now I'm somebody else. I think there is something wrong with the mental stability of some here when people are free to chime in whenever they want. I guess that means you are James and Srecko.

But, this distraction of yours seems to playout everytime you get caught in a deception. A Trump ploy.

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