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1975 was in the past. Are we HONEST about it TODAY?


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@Anna I guess so, makes one easy to deduce, that's like finding out Bruce Wayne is the Batman, minus the shock value, for in this case, we already know who is behind the mask.

On another forum, if you have multiple names/accounts, one can be called out by an admin/members or even banned, or given warning. at the other Christian forums I use to be on, someone got blasted by an admin on the entire forum. Mainly when you have some folks who agree with themselves or liking their own comments from the other account.

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False. Everyone should deny falsehoods. I agree that former Witnesses can be dishonest. I wouldn't judge them as the least honest people alive.  I have seen evidence of some dishonesty among some, but don't think any human even has a way to know if they are more or less honest than current Witnesses. My guess is that they would be about the same, on average -- less honest on some topics and more honest on some topics, depending on whether they are trying to promote or protect a specific i

Exactly! I gave actual facts and you just keep giving non-specific generalities and complaints that a small percentage of the actual facts and evidence from Watch Tower publications were also found on an apostate website, and therefore you seem to feel that they can therefore be ignored or distorted. Unfortunately, this is the kind of thing that sincere people will see right through, and they will see us as more and more dishonest. It's disappointing. How about some actual facts?

Sounds like a waste of time. But I'm retired, so I'll tell you what I would come up with: ..."millions now living will never die."... This was a risky prophecy to make. But the risk probably didn't seem too high at the time since, after the failure of 1914, Rutherford said that people had more on which to base their faith in this prophecy than Noah had on which to base his faith in Jehovah telling him there would be a Flood. He said that there was more Bible evidence for 1925 than there wa

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4 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Technically, you would need at least 2 million persons to make the plural "millions" part come true, and we would evidently have needed Armageddon to come sometime around 2016 in order for 2 million 98+ year-olds to still be alive, who had just born in March 1918. Perhaps, some worldwide estimates of the number of 99+ year-olds in 2017 could have been around to potentially survive Armageddon.

Technically yes, but practically, we know, and everyone else knows, when that statement was made it was not referring to babies born in 1918 and people living till they were nearly a 100. It was was talking about those who were in the audience at the time and perhaps of average age, which would probably be 35 to 45 year olds?

 

4 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Remember that the "great crowd" of Revelation 7 were still going to heaven along with the 144,000 kings and priests, according to Russell's and Rutherford's teachings.

Actually I never knew that!

4 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Understanding the original prophecy in its full context is a good idea, in order to understand how and why the references to it have evolved over time. Maybe in another thread?

Yes please. I don't know much about it. I just know that this talk was given and that obviously it was.....well......wishful thinking at best and totally false at worst. And I guess it had a lot to do with the 1925 campaign.

What I wondered was if our latest publications have mentioned anything about it. I can look it up too...

PS. The last mention of "millions now living will never die" that I have in my WT CD library is from 2009 WT . The article was a life experience entitled "Ninety Years Ago I Began to ‘Remember My Grand Creator" one excerpt says this:

"Some months before this incident at school, our family had moved to live near Glasgow in Scotland. About that time, Father attended the public talk entitled “Millions Now Living Will Never Die.” It changed his life. Father and Mother began studying the Bible and often talked together about God’s Kingdom and the blessings to come. I thank God that from then on my parents brought me up to love God and to put my trust in him."— WT/2009/7/15

Most likely today this brother is dead...

 

 

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Thah'ss  a  OK, AllenSmith34 ... I wrote yor a name on a piece of ah paper and gave it to Guido ... who has knife scars from his eyebrows to his stomach, that never heal, and who has a very creative take on civilized behavior, and a  like a Lion when you remove a thorn from its paw ... never forgets a favor.

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5 hours ago, Anna said:

And I guess it had a lot to do with the 1925 campaign.

Yes, the Millions campaign was the 1925 campaign. The 1918 sermon was based on the 1925 date as found in the 1917 book, "The Finished Mystery." The "canvas" offer for that book, remember, only required that people stay alive until 1925 in order to be among the "millions" who would never die.

By, 1920, the entire talk was published and expanded upon a bit, in the booklet "Millions Now Living Will Never Die." They would never die because millions of people alive in 1918 would still be alive in 1925. By 1921, the new book, "The Harp of God" came out, which also used the 1925 promises as a theme. In fact, note what is embossed on early covers of that famous book. If it's hard to read, it's repeated on the inside title page. "Proof Conclusive that Millions now Living will never Die." (This was removed in the 1928, 2nd edition.)

image.pngimage.png

It was advertised in newspapers with the year printed in the advertisement. The following example from April 1921, saying: "to apply it to ourselves requires positive knowledge based upon indisputable evidence. Thousands of profound Bible scholars can prove from Bible prophecies which have been fulfiled during the last 5 years that those living until the year 1925 can live forever if they choose to do so." ". . . [H]ear and consider definite Scriptural proof for this proclamation."

image.png

 

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40 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

The 1918 sermon was based on the 1925 date as found in the 1917 book, "The Finished Mystery." The "canvas" offer for that book, remember, only required that people stay alive until 1925 in order to be among the "millions" who would never die.

Aaaah, I thought there was a book that mentioned the "millions will never die" not just a sermon. I am connecting the dots now, thank you! It looks like Rutherford also authored a book with that title. (Also I get how the millions couldn't have referred only to the Bible students, as there wasn't a million of them yet).

So since this topic is about 1975, it doesn't apply to this, however the question regarding honesty is the same, are we being honest about the millions and 1925? How is the statement "proof conclusive" being  explained today, since the proof was obviously false. And statements such as this:

54 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

"to apply it to ourselves requires positive knowledge based upon indisputable evidence. Thousands of profound Bible scholars can prove from Bible prophecies which have been fulfiled during the last 5 years that those living until the year 1925 can live forever if they choose to do so."   ". . . [H]ear and consider definite Scriptural proof for this proclamation."

 

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9 hours ago, Anna said:

Aaaah, I thought there was a book that mentioned the "millions will never die" not just a sermon. I am connecting the dots now, thank you! It looks like Rutherford also authored a book with that title.

In my last post I called it a booklet, instead of a book because I've only seen it in soft-cover. And because it was 128 pages long and 20 cents, this was a little smaller than the format they usually called a book.

9 hours ago, Anna said:

So since this topic is about 1975, it doesn't apply to this, however the question regarding honesty is the same, are we being honest about the millions and 1925? How is the statement "proof conclusive" being  explained today, since the proof was obviously false.

I do believe that some "diversionary" games have been played with this, since we can't make it go away. I don't think it started out in any sinister way, but there have been some real problems in the methods used to minimize it. There are a lot of parallels between 1925 and 1975, which might seem disturbing if looked at too closely, but the real problem, I think is that the conditions at the beginning of the post 1914 era were of "Biblical proportions" in the sense of how the world probably surprised itself at the viciousness and scope of the war, and famine and pestilence were also of "Biblical proportions" especially the Spanish Influenza. The 1975 era required a bit more propaganda to create the necessary levels of fear to make it seem to be of "Biblical proportions" but as G.R. pointed out, we weren't creating that propaganda, we were just collecting all doomsday propaganda that fit our assumed timetable. We were collecting it because it fit other pieces of the puzzle, like the generation of people who would not pass away, and who were around 15 in 1914, making them 90 years old in 1975.

But these supposedly "perfect storms" of conditions can't work without someone in authority driving it. Especially not with the training of Bible Student and Witness mentality. We are sheep. We can be told how to feel, what to fear, when to hide, when to come out and be bold. In the case of 1925 it took a man who was willing to drive the point home over and over again that these were the strongest evidences that the Bible Students would ever see about anything like this. And by a man who needed to understand evidence and proof for his previous livelihood as an attorney. Yet this same man was willing to forego all real evidence for the sloppiest kind of thinking:

The basic idea was that there would be a "Great Jubilee" and -- without any Biblical support -- he agreed that 70 sounded like a good number of 50-year jubilees to make a "Great Jubilee." 70 times 50 is 3,500, so all he needed was to agree to a significant starting point that was about 3,500 years earlier and which would end a few years after the current year. After 1914 failed, Bible Students (in 1916) were already looking at the idea (based on an assumed but flimsy chronology) that the previous jubilee had ended around 1875, and they figured that the next one was 1925. Russell didn't like the idea, but it had already been offered as a question for him. This was because if they started it at one of the popular (but flimsy) dates for the entrance of Israel into the Promised Land, then 3,500 years supposedly ended in 1925.

This was how flimsy and unbiblical the actual calculation was for 1925. Of course, they also had the supposed "double" punishment for Israel's sins which they took to mean that the number of years would be duplicated for the time of spiritual Israel. They found some supposed historical dates for the final desolation of Judea in 73 C.E. based on Eusebius and Josephus, and found a way to make this look significant (33 + 40) and then used this and some vague notions about how much had happened already since 1914: Jewish Zionism, Spanish Flu, Russian Revolution, etc.

 

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5 hours ago, Anna said:

How is the statement "proof conclusive" being  explained today, since the proof was obviously false.

Is it more that the conclusions were false? Evolution and creation use the same "proof", just draw different conclusions.

Here's a question.

Since 1975, 10.5 million have been baptised. Add in the av pubs of '75 gives 12.6 million. The average publisher count for  2017 was 8.2 million.Allowing for the current crude death rate, 1.7 million have died since '75, so at least 2.7 million have gone AWOL or disfellowshipped. (Approximations of course).

Why is this?

Is it: Lack of confidence in leadership? Disobedience to moral requirements? Lack of desire to preach? Preference for materialistic goals? Fear of man? Expected "end" took too long? Stumbled over other's immorality? Believe apostate distortions?

Or is it: Don't believe we are in last days? Don't believe 1914CE was when time ran out for Satan? Don't believe Governing Body are spirit appointed and directed? Disillusioned over end-time teachings?  Suspicions of financial irregularity? Don't agree with "shunning" non-dependant relatives? Don't agree with prohibition on primary blood components only?

Or what?

 

 

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