At what moment "The Truth" has ceased to be "The Truth"?

[JW Insider]

4 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

If that person is allowed to remain in the Organisation, are the members of their congregation informed that this person is a proven Pedophile. Or, are the members of the same congregation informed that there is a Pedophile within their congregation.  As far as I know the congregants are not informed...

The congregation, as a rule, is not informed formally, on purpose. My parents are in a congregation where a molester, former elder, had been disfellowshipped and apparently no one knew or said anything about the reasons for two years until he was reinstated last year. But rumors of the offense got around in the congregation immediately after his reinstatement, and the brother and his family (??!!??) have moved to another congregation. I believe the procedure has been just inform the elders of the new congregation, and tell them to keep a close watch and not return his privileges.

Naturally, there are more cases where the knowledge of child abuse gets known in the congregation through other secular channels, newspapers, media, law enforcement, sex offender lists. The rumors can even start through a fellow family member who hates the molestor.

[Srecko Sostar]

6 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

The Watchtower doesn’t need the government to tell it what to do

This is contrary to Geoffrey Jackson deposition before ARC in 2015. He told then that would be easier for GB and WT if Government made clear statement what they as secular ruler expect from JW Church aka GB and WT  

[JW Insider]

22 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

The thing is Srecko, SM doesn't believe the JW's have it right, or he would be one.  

You should pay closer attention to exactly how SM answered this supposed claim that he was not (or is not) a Witness. Others have made this claim for him, but watch closely to see if he has ever made this claim about himself (up until now, at least). Positioning oneself here as a Restorationist Christian is not the same as claiming that one is not a JW. I think it might be a "ninja" thing. ?

[JOHN BUTLER]

Poor Space Merchant. I think you have a problem SM. It seems you need to group people together. I tell you this much, if any person says something that i agree with, i will say that i agree with it. That does not make me a follower of that person or does not link me to that person in any way. It only means that i agree with the one comment they have made. 

You are telling me that i don't believe in the promises God has made. You are very wrong.  However you are free to judge me if you wish. But I worry about you. I have a sad feeling that you feel inferior. You have mentioned many times that you are a 'man of colour', a 'black man. Why do you need to tell us this ? Is it because you feel inferior ?  The length of your comments seem to show that you are trying to prove how clever you are. We all know that you have great knowledge.  

So please remember that i am not part of a group, I am not linked to anyone except my own Wife. Of course you may criticise me as much as you want to, if you helps you to feel better about yourself. 

[Srecko Sostar]

18 hours ago, Thinking said:

what would you have done if you knew about David’s sin....how would you have sorted that out????

Thanks for this question. Many years ago similar questions went through my mind, about what David's servants and people around him and Bathsheba feels and thinking when they had passively and actively participate in that scandal, affair. What power forces them to be involved in wrong deeds of prominent persons in their midst? Many levels in hierarchy, family members, counselors, personal servants, other servants, elders, military leaders, religiously important persons and many others. All of them knew something, heard something, witnessed to something, not done something, ....and many more to tell and to feel.

Live that  to your imagination, because it is not simple to me to express all thoughts and feels. Just to tell at the and -----draw some  parallels to modern time, and you will see how all is the same. Everything is repeated cyclically. :))

[JW Insider]

16 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

This is contrary to Geoffrey Jackson deposition before ARC in 2015. He told then that would be easier for GB and WT if Government made clear statement what they as secular ruler expect from JW Church aka GB and WT  

Just read a 76 page treatise on exactly this point and it makes use of the ARC info. https://www.academia.edu/37425975/How_have_the_Jehovahs_Witnesses_adapted_child_safeguarding_practices_and_guidance_to_local_circumstances_in_the_United_States_of_America_England_and_Australia

I don't think the person has any connection to JWs or anti-JWs.

How have the Jehovah's Witnesses adapted child safeguarding practices and guidance to local circumstances in the United States of America, England and Australia

• 
  Uploaded by

  Harvinder Singh

   

   University of Birmingham, Philosophy, Theology and Religion, Postgraduate Student

    | 

  Theology and Religion

  Studied English Literature and Language at The University of Leicester.
  I am currently studying the MA in Religion, Politics and Society at The University of Birmingham.
  
  I am particularly Interested in researching New World Religions (NRMs), particularly Jehovah's Witnesses, the Latter Day Saint movement of Restorationist Christianity, and Scientology.
  Supervisors: Prof. Nicholas Adams

[Srecko Sostar]

16 hours ago, Thinking said:

true apostate

well does this means how  also exist false apostate :)))) and something in a middle of true and false ?

[JOHN BUTLER]

19 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

The congregation, as a rule, is not informed formally, on purpose. My parents are in a congregation where a molester, former elder, had been disfellowshipped and apparently no one knew or said anything about the reasons for two years until he was reinstated last year. But rumors of the offense got around in the congregation immediately after his reinstatement, and the brother and his family (??!!??) have moved to another congregation. I believe the procedure has been just inform the elders of the new congregation, and tell them to keep a close watch and not return his privileges.

Naturally, there are more cases where the knowledge of child abuse gets known in the congregation through other secular channels, newspapers, media, law enforcement, sex offender lists. The rumors can even start through a fellow family member who hates the molestor.

Thank you @JW Insider. When you say 'molester' I presume you mean Pedophile.... .

So here we have to important points. 

1. That congregants are not informed of there being a Pedophile in their congregation. 

2. Quote  "until he was reinstated last year."  So we are not talking about 20 years ago as some on here  pretend. This is NOW. 

JW Insider did not say if the police were involved or informed, but if not then this man could still be a threat to people outside of the JW Org / congregation. And the Elders of his new congregation can only watch him whilst he is in the Kingdom Hall. What about social gatherings ? Many JW's have social gatherings / 'a party' / 'get together'.  If this man is invited, who watches him ? 

Be honest, am i not making the point clear here. This is now, not back in history. More needs to be done to protect not only the JW congregations but also the people outside. 

[Space Merchant]

@JOHN BUTLER You mention this before, but coupled with that you will not be ignoring the things people are doing that can help the betterment of children to at least lessen child abuse and or other bad practices that any child can succumb to.

Just as your own Father teaches you right from wrong, it is to be done the same to our youth, be it your own blood or someone you care for who sees you as perhaps a parent and or guardian.

Therefore I do not see why the agree previously but show to be contested to such now, even against as Srecko is doing.

You cannot cleanse anything totally, perhaps in your dreams, but in reality, we cannot stop abuse anywhere totally - this goes for the Jehovah's Witnesses too.

Therefore in contrast to Srecko's claims, God is the only one who is capable of purifying this earth of sin, us of mankind, cannot. WE can do some things, but never can we cease something totally i.e. war and famine being prime examples.

If you fail to believe God can clear imperfections of men, why profess God to begin with? Because the way you are acting you act as though our counterparts are ignorant of something that is neigh impossible purge, which is factual.

[Anna]

John here is the rest of my reply. I will try and be as concise as possible

On 11/6/2018 at 7:15 AM, JOHN BUTLER said:

The way Child Abuse is dealt with, needs sorting out. NOT just on paper, anyone can write a list of what procedure should be, and then secretly do it a different way. You yourself have given me instances of this......  

The instance I gave you was from the 80’s when there was much more leeway in how some congregational matters were handled. The DOCUMENT we have now on the website  enables anyone to check if things are being handled the right way or not. I printed mine out.

 

On 11/6/2018 at 7:15 AM, JOHN BUTLER said:

The GB stating that they themselves (only those 8 men) are the faithful and discreet slave. When Jesus said to his apostles that one should not put himself above another. Yet the GB do put themselves above the others of the Anointed.

For practicalities sake it makes sense that only a handful of people make up the FDS. Anointed ones are scattered all over the world and it would be hard for them to contribute in any meaningful way unless they were all present together, which is impossible. None of the anointed are above another anointed and nor is anyone anointed above someone who isn’t. Anyone who asks, can receive holy spirit as helper. The difference between one who is anointed and one who isn’t is only in their final destination. Faithful and discreet slave is not a title, merely a function that someone has to perform. The qualifications are no different to the qualifications of an Elder, except perhaps these men have a longer period of service before they are elected to be on the governing body.

On 11/6/2018 at 7:15 AM, JOHN BUTLER said:

The false teachings, which they pretend are mistakes. The changing of meaning of scriptures, by the GB, to suit their own needs or wants.

I am not quite sure what you mean by that. I wouldn’t know what the GB thought and whether they pretended something.  I cannot read their thoughts....

On 11/6/2018 at 7:15 AM, JOHN BUTLER said:

Surely everyone knows about Page 9 in the Revelation book, where the GB / writers say " It is not claimed that the explanations in this publication are infallible." Huh ? On the one hand they say they are the Faithful slave of God, giving the right food at the right time. Then on the other hand they say 'But we could be wrong'  Why would they be wrong if they claim that the information comes from God ?  Of course they have been proved wrong, so I think it proves my point, they are not receiving the info' from God. 

Every human that has ever lived has been fallible. Every human that has been God’s true servant has been fallible. Countless Bible accounts testify to this fact. The only time a human has been able to say something that has been infallible was when under the influence of holy spirit, but ONLY in Bible times. This kind of privilege served its purpose for writing the Bible and for establishing the Christian congregation. Since then the holy spirit does not act in the same way. There is no miraculous interception, nor any inspiration. One simple reason is that everything we need is already in the pages of the Bible. The right food at the right time really is the presentation of the right scriptures at the right time. Not someone’s ideas. Yes, the information comes from God because the Bible is from God. But interpretation or the understanding of it is subject to the fallibility of man. Especially when it comes to prophecies.  Br. Jackson was asked about the operation of the holy spirit during the ARC hearing. Here is a short excerpt from the transcript:     

Q.   By what mechanism would you understand God's spirit to direct your decisions?

Br. Jackson:   Well, what I mean by that is, by prayer and using our constitution, God's word, we would go through the scriptures and see if there was any biblical principle at all that would influence our decision - and it could be that in our initial discussions there was something that maybe we were missing and then in another discussion that would come to light.  So we would view that as God's spirit   motivating us because we believe the Bible is God's word and came by means of holy spirit.

However, there are fundamental doctrines or truths which are clear and simple. It is these fundamental truths that have been the backbone of our faith and these have never changed. As long as we are clear on those fundamental truths, the other stuff is just frills that we may or may not change, or that we may or may not understand, or even personally consider important for the time being.

On 11/6/2018 at 7:15 AM, JOHN BUTLER said:

Information from God's Kingdom Rules book :-

The Bible students in 1883 knew Christmas was wrong but they continued to celebrate Christmas until 1926, so deliberate sin was committed against God. 

This is the paragraph you must be quoting from: Gods Kingdom Rules page 101: “The Bible Students long acknowledged that Christmas has pagan roots and that Jesus was not born on December 25. Zion’s Watch Tower of December 1881 stated: “Millions were brought into the church from Paganism. But the change was mostly in name, for the pagan priests became christian priests and the pagan holidays came to be called by christian names—Christmas being one of these holidays.” In 1883, under the title “When Was Jesus Born?” the Watch Tower reasoned that Jesus was born about the beginning of October.* Yet, the Bible Students did not at the time clearly see the need to stop celebrating Christmas. It continued to be celebrated even by members of the Brooklyn Bethel family. After 1926, however, things began to change. Why?

 As a result of careful, closer scrutiny of the subject, the Bible Students came to realize that the origin of Christmas and the practices associated with it actually dishonor God. 

On 11/6/2018 at 7:15 AM, JOHN BUTLER said:

In 1895 Bro Russell commented that smoking was wrong, using scripture to back up what he said. But smoking was allowed to continue within the JW Org until 1973. Over 75 years of deliberate sin by those 'in charge' of the Bible Students/JW Org. 

And they seem to boast about it in that book as if making the changes was so good. Yes good, but much too late, as it should have been done as soon as they realised.

It seems that they did make the necessary changes as soon as they realized. Prior to that they couldn’t have been convinced enough to take the decisive action necessary. I would hope I was given some leeway and patience if I took a little longer to making adjustments in my lifestyle. Life is progressive, experiences are progressive, knowledge is progressive. Rarely do things happen right from the get go.

On 11/6/2018 at 7:15 AM, JOHN BUTLER said:

Carry that through to the Child Abuse / Pedophilea problem and once again it can clearly be seen that the GB and HQ's in every country knew about the serious problem of Child Abuse in many many congregations, but deliberately held back on taking positive action. Most active JW's never knew for years about it, and many still don't know. Once again deliberate sinning was / is taking place.

What is one person’s positive action is another person’s holding back. There is no one size that fits all cases. Yes, I agree, some cases were woefully mishandled, and these are the cases that are reported on in the media. Other cases were handled well. I am sure you are aware that “successful” cases do not get reported in the media. Yes, most active JWs were unaware of a problem unless they were directly involved and/or unless they had children. Many JWs were under the impression that this cannot happen in our org. despite publications which said that indeed these things CAN happen in the org.  I explained the gist of the reasoning “we are better than anyone else” in my previous post.

 

On 11/6/2018 at 7:15 AM, JOHN BUTLER said:

Shunning. This one is a mixed bag of course. But if it leads to people being left completely alone and depressed then i would think it was not God's or Jesus Christ's intentions

The intentions are in Acts 3:19

On 11/6/2018 at 7:15 AM, JOHN BUTLER said:

  It should be made clear when a person is 'no longer one of Jehovah's Witnesses', whether they were disfellowshipped or 'resigned', and whether the person sinned against God or not. No personal details need to be given but the congregation should know if they are allowed to talk to the person or not. Many congregants unfortunately will not think for themselves, they need guidance or 'approval' from the elders.

If I understand correctly, your main concern is that people are aware that you left of your own volition because you no longer agree with some of the ways things are done in the organization. You are right, reasons for disfellowshipping are not given, out of regard for the dissfelliwshipped person and their family. But if you have disassociated yourself, and the announcement is made that "John Buttler has disassociated himself and therefore is no longer one of Jehovah's Witnesses" then people will know it was because of something you did not agree with, and not because you necessarily committed some moral wrong. If people ignore you, then it is because you are no longer of "their sort" (1John 2:19) and will view you as a man of the nations, because you are no longer a part of the Christian congregation.

On 11/6/2018 at 7:15 AM, JOHN BUTLER said:

Quite funny that the Org prints this magazine 'Return to Jehovah', but no one is supposed to even talk to ex JW's.  

I am sure this magazine is intended for those who have “drifted” and become inactive as Jehovah's Witnesses. They are still considered JW to a certain extend.

On 11/6/2018 at 7:15 AM, JOHN BUTLER said:

When the bible reminds us 'not to forsake the gathering of ourselves together' I don't think it mean in such a 'military way'. 

Not sure what you mean by that. Do you mean organized?

[JOHN BUTLER]

3 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

@JOHN BUTLER You mention this before, but coupled with that you will not be ignoring the things people are doing that can help the betterment of children to at least lessen child abuse and or other bad practices that any child can succumb to.

Just as your own Father teaches you right from wrong, it is to be done the same to our youth, be it your own blood or someone you care for who sees you as perhaps a parent and or guardian.

Therefore I do not see why the agree previously but show to be contested to such now, even against as Srecko is doing.

You cannot cleanse anything totally, perhaps in your dreams, but in reality, we cannot stop abuse anywhere totally - this goes for the Jehovah's Witnesses too.

Therefore in contrast to Srecko's claims, God is the only one who is capable of purifying this earth of sin, us of mankind, cannot. WE can do some things, but never can we cease something totally i.e. war and famine being prime examples.

If you fail to believe God can clear imperfections of men, why profess God to begin with? Because the way you are acting you act as though our counterparts are ignorant of something that is neigh impossible purge, which is factual.

@JW Insider comment above and my comment above prove the point I'm making. The 'rulers' of JW Org and the Elders could do a lot more. But they are still trying to make the JW Org 'look clean' even when it isn't. 

Yes of course only God through Jesus Christ can bring in the New World and bring back perfection, but that is no excuse for others to stop trying to make things better now.  And I'm still not sure if you believe that only one organisation is the true way to God, or if a person can be 'saved' on their own faith. 

[Space Merchant]

25 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Poor Space Merchant. I think you have a problem SM. It seems you need to group people together.

Can you prove I am grouping people together? Clearly I am showing the differences of Christology as well as making a distinction between the two, as sky to sea, there are differences.

Can you bring proof to claim of the problem I have because you have already failed your own claim of me pretending, as you professed twice now.

If anyone has a problem it is a man who believes he can purge something that came from the imperfection of men, not only it is a problem, it is outright dream-worthy when such a man cannot see reality for what it is and that only God can change such things, not man.

26 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

I tell you this much, if any person says something that i agree with, i will say that i agree with it. That does not make me a follower of that person or does not link me to that person in any way. It only means that i agree with the one comment they have made. 

And yet you are capable of knowing who has God's approval and not? Who can forgive or not? Some of the things Gardner has professed you have brought them up too, just as his view on the bible itself. Yet when it is done in your favor no one is not allowed to bring up this point?

28 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

You are telling me that i don't believe in the promises God has made. You are very wrong.  However you are free to judge me if you wish.

I am not judging, my statement is based on both the responses and reaction made by you and Srecko. I speak of educating our children to which Srecko makes claim I do not have concern for the well being of the youth, something of which I made points of time and time again to you and now.

If Srecko is right about me not caring why in the world would I post information brought up by Child Prevention sources?

I told you before, I do have a high concern and I believe God will cleanse this world of sin and death, if the latter claims this logic is a fail, why agree with him on this stance?

30 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

But I worry about you. I have a sad feeling that you feel inferior.

Not really. I make a response to a response and give a word if need be. If I felt inferior I would not be getting my information form a source and I'd be flailing in responses.

32 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

You have mentioned many times that you are a 'man of colour', a 'black man. Why do you need to tell us this ?

I say this because as someone who profess the gospel if they are incorrect they will go by means of insult and make outlandish claims, as I said before because of this and the racial slurs, it does not hinder me from professing the Bible.

Another thing because of the actions of a person, in this case an African American, society tends to blame all African Americans for the actions of a sole person - I do not believe this even when the race and background is in regards to others, but this mentality is at its prime in the US, as with in the UK for you.

This is the same with faith communities. If someone abused a child, it does not define the masses and they should not be singled out for the actions of a sole person, it is absurd and silly.

That being said, I am aware of how people are and I do not condemn an entire party, a group or people because of something that one or a few people have done, I do not buy into that mentality and I told you this countless times.

We can take example from even Jesus himself, who he himself knew the situation with the Jews and Sanitarians, as is with other biblical examples.

Just as God is fair and just, we should be likewise, not be ignorant to such at all.

37 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Is it because you feel inferior ? 

And how is that so?

My response pretty much counters your question, as is with what I say about good and bad people of which you agreed with me on several times before. Why is it now it is different with you?

Unlike you I can discern and understand the difference in something someone or some group, I am not oblivious to what it means to be like a Berean and put forth discernment.

39 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

The length of your comments seem to show that you are trying to prove how clever you are. We all know that you have great knowledge.  

My comments are always this lengthy because I make a response to a response. It should not come as a surprise to you because our first discussion I told you I am literally like a book.

Therefore, I am knowledgeable, but I do not pretend because I take the time to read, study and research - that isn't pretending, Mr. Butler. As much as you can make claim to childish antics, it will always be unfounded for you and I both know pretending is for children. A bit ironic from a man who speaks of tricks not too long ago, if I may add.

41 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

So please remember that i am not part of a group, I am not linked to anyone except my own Wife. Of course you may criticise me as much as you want to, if you helps you to feel better about yourself. 

So next time when you post information of someone like Mr. Gardner, do not boast of his efforts when the guy was causing problems to people and caused a divide among those who take up his influence.

I also suggest you take the time to read and research, perhaps you can play a role in what Child Prevention Services has provided for people to follow, you and your household can learn a thing or too and not ignore the problem.

AS for you in the UK, perhaps London would be a better place, just as Robinson's people have mentioned before they went crazy.