At what moment "The Truth" has ceased to be "The Truth"?

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

John:

Knowing my failings, and I am an original Boy Scout, the cowboy in the white hat ... I don't think it is right to expect much of others.

I literally owe my life to the things I have learned that I could not have learned ANYWHERE else.

Remember the movie "Forest Gump"?

He was retarded and did EVERYTHING wrong .... but it turned out well for him.

I appreciate the 15% that the Organization does well ... and the core Theology which IS true.

I try to have realistic expectations concerning what they screw up to a fare-thee-well.

I work with a LOT of people I don't entirely approve of, or agree with, or even like.

I am just a different kinda sheep-like person than what you are used to.

[Anna]

3 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

“That faithful slave is THE channel through which Jesus is feeding his true followers in this time of the end.” (w13 7/15 p. 20 par. 2 “Who Really Is the Faithful and Discreet Slave?”)    THE being singular I would think. 

“Jehovah gives us sound counsel through his Word and through his organization, using the publications provided by “THE faithful and discreet slave.” (Matthew 24:45; 2 Timothy 3:16) How foolish to reject good advice and insist on our own way! We “must be swift about hearing” when Jehovah, “the One teaching men knowledge,” counsels us through his CHANNEL of communication.” (w03 3/15 p. 27 ‘The Lips of Truth Will Endure Forever’) THE = singular and  Channel = singular. 

And yes right. Proof is there that the GB are wrong in saying they are the only means of communication, which they do say, along with saying the JW org is the only way to get saved. 

Come on Anna you've seen it all here in print with quotes and references given many times.  The GB exalt themselves above everyone, even the rest of the anointed.  JW's are supposed to believe every word from the GB without question. Any talking against the GB is seen as apostate. 

I'd love to ask Bro Jackson what / which other channels are being used .   I think S.M. might think other channels are being used. 

As for me I'll admit once again I'm completely lost in it all.  Totally confused. 

I would think Jehovah can use any channel he pleases. For example even stones (Luke 19:14). So it would indeed be presumptuous on anyone’s part to assume THEY were the ONLY channel. The GB recognize themselves as the fds who is to provide spiritual food at the proper time on a global scale. Who is to say Jehovah isn’t using some individual in a remote part of the world to explain Bible truths, even if they are not one of Jehovah’s Witnesses per se.  The Bible is available for everyone to read, and if they are not influenced by false religious teachings, then individuals can find the truth, and can share it with others. So I think the criterion for being a channel God uses is that this channel has to impart basic truths from the Bible. So I would say any organization or person who for example teaches the trinity cannot be a channel used by God. But they do not have to know everything, as was evident in the case of Apollos (Acts 18: 24-26) where Priscilla and Aquila had to fill in the gaps for him. However, the Christian congregation was set up by Jesus to accomplish the ministry and for encouraging one another. So from then on followers of Christ  were gathered together for that activity and purpose and came to be known as the Christian congregation (Acts 11:26). To keep such an ever growing congregation of people sticking to the original beliefs would be quite a challenge and Jesus knew that eventually the Christian congregation would become corrupted until in the last days the when the true christian congregation would be revived again. The fundamental truths that every JW is familiar with was made known by the early Bible students from Russell onward.

I posted the following article several times before because it epitomizes the abdication of responsibility by Christendom to keep their Churches morally and spiritually clean. In contrast, Jehovah's Witnesses have not abdicated that responsibility and through the fda, as "guardians of the doctrine", are persevering in keeping the worldwide congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses as close to the first Christian congregation as possible.

QUESTION: How does the first century church compare to the church today?
ANSWER: In his letters to the first century church, the Apostle Paul commended each for excelling in the graces of God. Specifically, these first century churches were known for their faith, love, zeal, giving, knowledge, and intolerance for sin, as well as false doctrines. The first century church was united in spirit. Consequently, they were a conduit for the power of God as manifested in the miraculous signs and wonders performed through the apostles and for the apostles, in response to the prayers of the saints. The gospel of grace spread like wildfire, at tremendous cost to the early followers of Christ. The first century church was beset with persecution, torture, and martyrdom. In spite of this, Christian churches were being established throughout the Mediterranean region, Asia Minor, and into Europe.

Today's world is characterized by the last days events foretold by the Lord Jesus Christ in the twenty-fourth chapter of the Matthew's Gospel. Specifically, we are hearing of the "wars and rumors of wars," earthquakes, famines, and pestilences of which our Lord warned. It was foretold of the church in these last days, that (among many other things):

The "love of many" would "grow cold."

Many in the church would be "lovers of self" rather than lovers of God.

Many in the faith would be "offended."

The church would "have a form of godliness, but deny the power thereof."

Last day Christians would have "itching" ears, would not "endure sound doctrine" and would have "many teachers."

In other words, the end times church (the organization) will include those who profess belief in Christ but who are, in fact, children of disobedience. The Lord Jesus Christ foretold of this reality in His parable of the "wheat and the tares."
Certainly, the early church had its problems, just as the church today. However, the early church was more diligent to identify and eradicate false doctrines than today's multi-denominational church. It was easier for the early church to discipline, or rid itself of those engaged in immoral activity. This could be because the early church was not as fragmented, or divided as the church of today."

From: allaboutreligion.org

 

[JOHN BUTLER]

4 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

John:

Knowing my failings, and I am an original Boy Scout, the cowboy in the white hat ... I don't think it is right to expect much of others.

I literally owe my life to the things I have learned that I could not have learned ANYWHERE else.

Remember the movie "Forest Gump"?

He was retarded and did EVERYTHING wrong .... but it turned out well for him.

I appreciate the 15% that the Organization does well ... and the core Theology which IS true.

I try to have realistic expectations concerning what they screw up to a fare-thee-well.

I work with a LOT of people I don't entirely approve of, or agree with, or even like.

I am just a different kinda sheep-like person than what you are used to.

Sorry J T it does not compute. Unless you have been raised on the idea, as I've mentioned before about, Collateral damage.  You mentioned yourself about the harm caused to others in the ORG. 

I myself learnt a lot about 'being nice and kind and forgiving' and that was good of course. But at what cost to others ?

Each to their own conscience. 

[JOHN BUTLER]

@Anna Quote. I posted the following article several times before because it epitomizes the abdication of responsibility by Christendom to keep their Churches morally and spiritually clean. In contrast, Jehovah's Witnesses have not abdicated that responsibility and through the fda, as "guardians of the doctrine", are persevering in keeping the worldwide congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses as close to the first Christian congregation as possible.

I presume this is meant as a joke. JW Org being morally and spiritually clean. I think in some ways you contradict yourself Anna. You have given me info that proves the JW Org is not morally clean. And even other people have shown that the GB have written lies and misused scripture, so how can it even be spiritually clean ?  Comparing JW Org to other religions means nothing. It just brings us full circle about the 'offering children in the fire to Molech'.  It's no good saying our sin is not as bad as their sin. Deliberate sin is worse that accidental sin. The GB will have to carry full weight of it all. The Elders will have to feel shame that they acted a puppets. And the ordinary congregants will hang their heads in shame. Knowing what dishonour they have all brought on Jehovah's name.  Earthwide Anna, the dishonour is Earthwide. You know it's true. You have even agreed with me at times, you have felt my pain at times. 

[Evacuated]

5 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Obey your leaders and submit to them, VS Do not put your trust in princes nor in a son of man,

for they are keeping watch over your souls VS who cannot bring salvation

Your ability to quote such scriptures would seem to indicate your ability to understand them in context and correctly. Otherwise, you would just be demonstrating an ignorance  of God's word.

I will quote a child's scripture for you that should resolve your dilemna as expressed. "Children be obedient to your parents in union with the Lord, for this is righteous" Eph 6:1.

[Space Merchant]

On 11/7/2018 at 10:38 PM, Witness said:

Wt. 1964/10/1 - "Those who do not read can hear, for God has on earth today a PROPHETLIKE ORGANIZATION, just as he did in the days of the early Christian congregation."

As we can see here nothing in this small snippet says they claim to be inspired prophets, you merely upper-cased Prophet-like Organization, ironically enough you left in the last part just as he the days of the early Christian congregation, and to add on with the very fact that anyone who tries to follow the early church, the apostolic church considers that church as true, which is, quite damaging on your part with what the next part of that quote says, as it reads:

He designates these Christians as his “faithful and discreet slave.” (Matt. 24:45-47) This “slave” group is strictly commanded: “Do not treat prophesyings with contempt.” (1 Thess. 5:20) This has proved true of Jehovah’s anointed witnesses on earth. They pay attention to prophecy with the greatest respectfulness. They have corrected themselves when prophecy revealed their own shortcomings. They have not held back when prophecy has condemned practices followed even in Christendom. (Isa. 58:1) Yes, they have proclaimed the prophecies written in God’s Word even though this has brought world hatred toward them.—Matt. 24:9.

So if they were inspired prophets, you'd have to explain that last part which makes your own quote a self-refutation. you can fool someone easily, perhaps Srecko, with just a quote cut in half, and like I had done with you last time, you quote the whole thing instead of part of it.

Therefore, I ask you this time, direct to you and you alone only because you seem to be the guy who can pull information also, show me anywhere where this Restorationist Christian group has claimed to be inspired prophets? In fact, show me a historical fact that any Non-Trinitarian who is putting into application of the early church to be inspired prophets? When the history of Restorationism, perhaps the early church - no, The Didache can be used against you at this point, Witness?

This I'd like to see and maybe it would put your History of Christianity to the test this time around.

On 11/7/2018 at 10:38 PM, Witness said:

Wt. 972/4/1 -  "Of course, it is easy to say that this group acts as a 'prophet' of God. It is another thing to prove it. The only way that this can be done is to review the record. What does it show?" 

The quote states they act as prophets of God and can prove it. Any of us can act as prophets and prove it, but none of us can make the claim of inspiration, so where in this quote does it say they are inspired prophets? So far I only see they are and can act as prophets of God, but inspired prophets - remains to be seen, granted that even in the history of non-Trinitarianism, such ones who adhere to the church would never claim to be an inquired prophet, not even Church Father Eusebius of Caesarea would make that move granted his history and knowledgeable influence and understanding of inspired Scriptures.

Furthermore, what kills it for you even more is the fact that parts of where this quot originated from, the following statement says that them, who were called Bible Students had been active in preaching the gospel, as is what the prophets have done in their time, even those of Pentecost, for the gospel contains not just the good news gospel, but also, the Messianic Age, all coupled with the Great Commission, of which you are on the fence about as per last discussion. The sole focus in that paragraph also is Matthew 24:14.

On 11/7/2018 at 10:38 PM, Witness said:

How do you think the prophetic claims are made?  Who voices them?  Someone other than the GB?  Their "prophesy" is not inspired by Holy Spirit, but through demonic "inspiration".  

How are you so sure? Anyone who follows or tries to be like the early church should be carefully examined.

Like the church they adhere to the inspired Scriptures and they understand what the holy spirit is, but nowhere, anywhere have we seen them make claim to be an inspired prophet.

demonic inspiration you say? How when you haven't proven them to even make claim to inspiration? If anything we can discern such ones and apply 1 John 4:1, i.e. with discernment anyone can tell what is true and what is false, what is in accordance with the Scriptures and what is not. You have already proven yourself to which side of the spectrum you are on, many, many times when it came to Scripture, even going out on a limb to twist Greek Words in the process.

Perhaps next time you should cross-examine yourself and study the history of Christendom.

On 11/7/2018 at 10:38 PM, Witness said:

Review the record.  It shows nothing but failed prophesy. 

What I would be interested in is the claim of them being inspired prophets. Show me, Witness. Because like last time when I asked you showered me with many many verses that evade what is being asked.

[Space Merchant]

8 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

John:

Knowing my failings, and I am an original Boy Scout, the cowboy in the white hat ... I don't think it is right to expect much of others.

I literally owe my life to the things I have learned that I could not have learned ANYWHERE else.

Remember the movie "Forest Gump"?

He was retarded and did EVERYTHING wrong .... but it turned out well for him.

I appreciate the 15% that the Organization does well ... and the core Theology which IS true.

I try to have realistic expectations concerning what they screw up to a fare-thee-well.

I work with a LOT of people I don't entirely approve of, or agree with, or even like.

I am just a different kinda sheep-like person than what you are used to.

semper fi. That Lamb's on a mission, but I seriously down that type of firepower he's carrying he can travel properly.

[Space Merchant]

12 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

I think S.M. might think other channels are being used. 

Channels as in what? Be clear - you are grown so therefore please be clear and concise if you want to make a reference to me.

That being said, you are cycling about as to what you profess months ago, only this time, you show yourself to be more true to your the very person of whom I mention in this regard.

12 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

As for verse 17.  I don't know what Bible you are using, thought you were a JW so here is the JW Org version..  Please notice in BOTH verses it DOES NOT say LEADERS it says THOSE TAKING THE LEAD. 

He is using a translation that does not shy away from the manuscript sources of old that does not mix inspired text with uninspired text. And a couple of seconds at glance one can see there is no mix up or violation of Strong's in the Greek Language.

the lack of Biblical intuition rather telling, therefore your own word about spiritual wisdom begets you.

When the Strong's is in application, the verse, Hebrews 13:7 does indeed say leaders. the "Those" in question are the ones who are leading, to add more water to your decreasing fire, the cross-references even add further proof to claim. This verse connects with the other verse of which you mention which is identical to the previous whereas this also applies to verse 17.

Another factor against you is

If I were you, I'd be scared of Greek Strong's because the last time you tried some of your silliness, you tripped upon yourself and was quick to make mention of the English Bible, when in reality, even the English Bible informs you of what the word and or passage actually means.

Next time if you are going to try and say a word is there or not, perhaps look it up on Biblehub - after all, you did say it was interesting. It may be interesting now a perhaps like sour grapes to the tongue if you check out the Hebrews verses on it now.

Here you go, I am giving you the honor of clicking and seeing for yourself:

• https://biblehub.com/hebrews/13-7.htm
• https://biblehub.com/hebrews/13-17.htm
• Here is the Strong's: https://biblehub.com/greek/strongs_2233.htm

That being said, spiritual leaders... Hebrews is clear, as is with the cross-references, as is with the quotations, as is with nothing that compromised the text which can result in a Greek and or Hebraic violation - that of which is unfounded, that of which whatever you have made claim to to be incorrect.

Also I find this interesting....

12 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

And I can see very bad conduct, which shows false leaders.. 

This comes from a man, the same man who makes claim he does not not such persons, yet can say this. A bit hypocritical much, perhaps on judging and know who is who in terms of God's Approval, let alone Spiritual Wisdom when he himself cannot see the verse or passage for what it really is?

Surely, well this I can attest, truly a former Jehovah's Witnesses such as yourself would be doing far better than that, the good thing is your not like the guy who believes he can, who is in the same position as you, believes he can heal with his hands, it didn't fair well for him in the long-run, do not apply that example.

12 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

So the GB have no proof that they have any authority and they deliberately do wrong. Yet you still want to follow them. OK so be it. 

Well if they are trying to be like the apostolic church in them being one of the few who recognizes the apostolic church, how can you be so sure when you cannot prove it to be wrong?

This is why anyone who is doing such you have to examine them -carefully.

That being said remember who the head of the church is, or he may not recognize you when the time comes.

[Srecko Sostar]

6 hours ago, Outta Here said:

Your ability to quote such scriptures would seem to indicate your ability to understand them in context and correctly.

Thank you, but i am not talking about my ability. Question is, in what context GB put, push verses .... and how JW members reacting if they, as persons with ability to understand things too,  blindly follow the human rules.

[Space Merchant]

1 hour ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Thank you, but i am not talking about my ability. Question is, in what context GB put, push verses .... and how JW members reacting if they, as persons with ability to understand things too,  blindly follow the human rules.

As to what human rules are you even speaking about?

You have the Church whereas its teachings are to be adhered to, as with what is commanded by God ans his Christ. Nothing in this sense screams human rule, if you can agree with an apostle who lead the church, it is understandable, but to agree with someone who is alienated from eh church or teach what is accursed, clearly you will run into some problems.

there is a line between what is of the church and what is considered accursed and not of the church.

[Evacuated]

2 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Question is, in what context GB put, push verses

I do not understand this question at all.

Anyway, on the subject of truth, If you want to get down to basics that is, 

John 8:26: "As a matter of fact, the One who sent me is true,"

John 8:31-32 “If you remain in my word, you are really my disciples, and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

Romans 3:4 "But let God be found true, even if every man be found a liar"

So really what Jehovah tells us, through Christ, is true.  (2Tim3:16-17)

Other than that, (and there are many of these), our position is neatly summed up by Richard Feynman who I will quote again:  

" We never are definitely right, we can only be sure we are wrong."

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

2 hours ago, Outta Here said:

" We never are definitely right, we can only be sure we are wrong."

It depends on the context of what is being discussed.

That is a philosophical aphorism which is true in a general case, for most things, most of the time.

ONLY

Feynman's statement should be taken in the context of what he was discussing at the time .... which was NOT Quantum Electrodynamics ( QED) ... but likely (?) the philosophy of how to think about Quantum Electrodynamics, and most other things ... most of the time.