At what moment "The Truth" has ceased to be "The Truth"?

[JW Insider]

7 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

It appears by comparing both texts in the NWT of John 7:15 it is referring to education. The revision does not imply anything else even if the wording has changed. The first thing to consider, were John works letters and a revelation? 1984, and 2013 are still correct in context. There is no conflict.

I agree, and there was considerable overlap between education in scripture and education in literacy, anyway. I don't see a conflict at all, just an interesting point of discussion when it comes to variations in possible translations of the same Greek word(s).

And although you implied that we should compare all the versions of the NWT instead of just 1984 to 2013, I don't see anything of any importance in such a project. From what I shared above, you can probably see that the types of changes were usually of very minor consequence. Of course, there have also been changes that were deliberate because they were considered very important, such as changing "worship" to "obeisance" especially when the previous reference had been to "worship" offered to Jesus Christ. But these were well explained along the way in the Watchtower, the Appendixes, and the footnotes.

I like the chart. Where would you place the 1984 NWT and the 2013 Revised NWT on such a chart?

I don't see any reason to criticize the Watchtower for revising the translation. I think it was an excellent idea.

By the way, I forgot to mention that the use of "prove to be" (proving to be, proves to be, proved to be) was a common complaint from readers of the 1950 to 1984 version. More than 95% of those instances are gone, but not all of them.

[Srecko Sostar]

10 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

The GB doesn’t make human rules

Do you really want to believe it? :))

[JW Insider]

5 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

1. Was this translation of the Greek ever updated ? 

The one you had was an update of the 1969/70 version. The update included changes to the NWT modern text in the right and several other updates/corrections. Some of these had been mentioned in the Kingdom Ministry:

*** km 6/70 p. 3 Announcements ***

◆ Correction: In The Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures on page 1171 the date Nisan 10 should be moved down two lines so that the first event listed for that day will be “Barren fig tree cursed; second temple cleansing.” We suggest that you mark this correction in your personal copy.
◆ Also, on page 615, under the last Greek word on the top line, change the preposition “to” to read “of,” so as to make it read “of us.”

Even this Interlinear was an update to the Emphatic Diaglott by Benjamin Wilson. The Watch Tower Society purchased the plates and the full rights to republish and distribute this interlinear. This was available through the WTS for many years, from 1902 even up to the 1960's until the inventory ran out.

5 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

2. Was a similar translation of the Hebrew scriptures ever produced ?

Yes. But not for the public. It was created digitally and based on J.P.Green's Hebrew Interlinear. You can see a glimpse of it in the introductory video at Patterson (for tours) showing how NWT Bible translators go back to both the original Hebrew and Greek. It's an online tool, but may be too much of a derivative from a previously published work to be republished by the Watchtower. A limited number of Green's Hebrew Interlinear was made available to some Bethelites in 1979 and then effectively "forbidden" for private use in 1980 after some Bible study groups at Bethel began using it. Anyone who asked for a copy after December 1979 was thoroughly questioned until the WTS stopped making it internally available by April 1980. The brother in "Purchasing" who was in charge of procuring them (for Bethelites, the GB, and the Bethel and Gilead Library) was dismissed for growing a beard in April, and there were no more responses to the requests.

[I threw in that last bit of info about the beard in case people really don't think the GB create man-made rules. The GB were actually very proud of man-made rules at this time and even highlighted them at a 1980 meeting of Bethel Elders as something that proved Jehovah's blessing on his visible organization. Brother Schroeder, in fact, counted the number of the rules in the Branch Organization book and compared them to the 617 laws of Moses to show how God has proven himself to be a God of Order/Organization.]

[JOHN BUTLER]

8 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

The one you had was an update of the 1969/70 version. The update included changes to the NWT modern text in the right and several other updates/corrections. Some of these had been mentioned in the Kingdom Ministry:

*** km 6/70 p. 3 Announcements ***

◆ Correction: In The Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures on page 1171 the date Nisan 10 should be moved down two lines so that the first event listed for that day will be “Barren fig tree cursed; second temple cleansing.” We suggest that you mark this correction in your personal copy.
◆ Also, on page 615, under the last Greek word on the top line, change the preposition “to” to read “of,” so as to make it read “of us.”

Even this Interlinear was an update to the Emphatic Diaglott by Benjamin Wilson. The Watch Tower Society purchased the plates and the full rights to republish and distribute this interlinear. This was available through the WTS for many years, from 1902 even up to the 1960's until the inventory ran out.

Yes. But not for the public. It was created digitally and based on J.P.Green's Hebrew Interlinear. You can see a glimpse of it in the introductory video at Patterson (for tours) showing how NWT Bible translators go back to both the original Hebrew and Greek. It's an online tool, but may be too much of a derivative from a previously published work to be republished by the Watchtower. A limited number of Green's Hebrew Interlinear was made available to some Bethelites in 1979 and then effectively "forbidden" for private use in 1980 after some Bible study groups at Bethel began using it. Anyone who asked for a copy after December 1979 was thoroughly questioned until the WTS stopped making it internally available by April 1980. The brother in "Purchasing" who was in charge of procuring them for Bethelites, GB, and the Library was dismissed for growing a beard in April, and there were no more responses to the requests.  

 

Dismissed for growing a beard ? On what grounds ? Was he disfellowshipped or just put down a peg or two ? 

And it seems a bit suspicious that the Hebrew Interlinear was 'forbidden'.  Surely it was a study aid ?  Did it reveal too much truth to others ?   As i keep saying, the plot thickens ....... 

Thank you for all the information. And as for the info' on the Hebrew Interlinear, it's no wonder i could not get a straight answer from the Elders  

[JOHN BUTLER]

As an update : I'm looking on Ebay at Hebrew Interlinear translations. Some are very expensive and i don't exactly have £50 to spend. 

Any sensible suggestions as to a particular version i should be going for ? 

There are Strong's on ebay for less than £20 GBP but, A, i don't exactly know what I'm buying, and B, would i even know how to use it ? 

Help !!!!! 

 

[JW Insider]

Just now, JOHN BUTLER said:

Dismissed for growing a beard ? On what grounds ? Was he disfellowshipped or just put down a peg or two ? 

It was well-known that he would be threatened with dismissal if he grew a beard, even though his was very neatly trimmed and short. It had happened to others. Why in the world anyone would want to test this was a mystery to me. He didn't even claim it was a skin thing which might have got him a reprieve. He was not disfellowshipped, but he was dismissed from Bethel and remained an elder after shaving. There was no written rule about beards that I ever knew of. Rutherford was adamantly against them, and I think it was just a long tradition, and it fit in with the idea of trying to present ourselves at all times without giving anyone a cause for stumbling.

9 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

And it seems a bit suspicious that the Hebrew Interlinear was 'forbidden'.  Surely it was a study aid ?  Did it reveal too much truth to others ?

No, it was forbidden because housekeepers were on the lookout for Bible study material that was not approved and several brothers got in trouble for owning it in their rooms. The crackdown on Bible study in groups was done because someone (perhaps more than one person) thought there was a direct connection between this and the rumors of apostasy. It turned out that there were dozens of such Bible study groups uncovered that had been going on since the early 1970's if not before. I attended two per week, about two hours each, in the room of a member of the Writing Department, and I knew others who had attended others also often in the room of members of the Writing Department, former Gilead Students etc. The ones I attended were discussions of a chapter or two at a time of the Bible in context until the whole book was finished. After every paragraph a brother would ask questions to draw people out, and people would comment about what it seemed to mean in context.

One of these meetings, I think it was the one in the room of Mark Nevajans (who was not in Writing, and might not have even been a Bethel Elder), was turned in for allowing the discussion of alternative doctrines like "great crowd" "other sheep" "disagreement with 1914". I'm told that this sparked a kind of "witchhunt" where everyone had to "rat out" anyone else they knew who was participating in Bethel Bible studies. These studies turned into a big scandal which were actually forbidden. Then ownership of non-Witness commentaries was questioned, and the actual idea of a "commentary" was questioned -- which was the basic mistake made in the book "Commentary on the Letter of James" which made it considered to be "apostate." Bethelite access to the Bethel Library and Gilead Library was also restricted. Those libraries were full of commentaries of all kinds. Very soon, these libraries were both moved to another building away from Bethelite access, and away from buildings that were residences like 124 and 107 CH. They were now attached to the offices of Writing, Service, etc, and were much harder to get to.  Smaller libraries of only a few of the WTS books and a dictionary replaced them for the average Bethelite's use.

[JOHN BUTLER]

47 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Do you really want to believe it? :))

The GB are humans. They are not inspired. they make rules. So the rules are human rules. 

[Srecko Sostar]

LITTLE Appendix for those who want presence of so called Context.  Here is example how WT "scribes" manipulates with Context !!!!!! 

Reasoning from the Scriptures, page 89, Cross;

The Imperial Bible-Dictionary acknowledges this, saying: “The Greek word for cross, [stau·rosʹ], properly signified a stake, an upright pole, or piece of paling, on which anything might be hung, or which might be used in impaling [fencing in] a piece of ground. . . . Even amongst the Romans the crux(from which our cross is derived) appears to have been originally an upright pole.”—Edited by P. Fairbairn (London, 1874), Vol. I, p. 376.

 

Text in red color is missing text in Reasoning book. Very important CONTEXT. Oh, context always problem with you:)))

_____________________________________________________

The Imperial Bible-Dictionary acknowledges this, saying: “The Greek word for cross, [stau·rosʹ], properly signified a stake, an upright pole, or piece of paling, on which anything might be hung, or which might be used in impaling [fencing in] a piece of ground. But a modification was introduced as the dominion and usages of Rome extended themselves through Greek speaking countries.

Even amongst the Romans the crux (from which our cross is derived) appears to have been originally an upright pole and this always reminded the more prominent part. But from the time that it began to be used as an instrument of punishment a transverse piece of wood was commonly added; not, however, always even than.....  The following text continues, describing the types of crosses and the ways in which the convicts were murdered...,others extending their arms on a patibulum. There can be no doubt, however, that the later sort was the more common and that about the period of the gospel age crucifixion was usually accomplished by suspending the criminal on a cross piece of wood. But this does not itself determine the precise form of the cross; ....  the text continues to describe 3 types of crosses.—Edited by P. Fairbairn (London, 1874), Vol. I, p. 376.

[JW Insider]

2 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

As an update : I'm looking on Ebay at Hebrew Interlinear translations. Some are very expensive and i don't exactly have £50 to spend. 

Any sensible suggestions as to a particular version i should be going for ? 

There are Strong's on ebay for less than £20 GBP but, A, i don't exactly know what I'm buying, and B, would i even know how to use it ? 

How about just using online resources where Strong's has been turned into something more like an online Concordance. Try https://www.blueletterbible.org for example. Or, https://www.biblestudytools.com/interlinear-bible/

There are quite a few available. You can even tie OT verses directly to the LXX and find good English translations of the LXX.

[The Librarian]

@JW Insider @Srecko Sostar etc.... please start new topics for your ideas....

This topic is now all over the place.

Thanks.

[JOHN BUTLER]

5 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

It was well-known that he would be threatened with dismissal if he grew a beard, even though his was very neatly trimmed and short. It had happened to others. Why in the world anyone would want to test this was a mystery to me. He didn't even claim it was a skin thing which might have got him a reprieve. He was not disfellowshipped, but he was dismissed from Bethel and remained an elder after shaving. There was no written rule about beards that I ever knew of. Rutherford was adamantly against them, and I think it was just a long tradition, and it fit in with the idea of trying to present ourselves at all times without giving anyone a cause for stumbling.

No, it was forbidden because housekeepers were on the lookout for Bible study material that was not approved and several brothers got in trouble for owning it in their rooms. The crackdown on Bible study in groups was done because someone (perhaps more than one person) thought there was a direct connection between this and the rumors of apostasy. It turned out that there were dozens of such Bible study groups uncovered that had been going on since the early 1970's if not before. I attended two per week, about two hours each, in the room of a member of the Writing Department, and I knew others who had attended others also often in the room of members of the Writing Department, former Gilead Students etc. The ones I attended were discussions of a chapter or two at a time of the Bible in context until the whole book was finished. After every paragraph a brother would ask questions to draw people out, and people would comment about what it seemed to mean in context.

One of these meetings, I think it was the one in the room of Mark Nevajans (who was not in Writing, and might not have even been a Bethel Elder), was turned in for allowing the discussion of alternative doctrines like "great crowd" "other sheep" "disagreement with 1914". I'm told that this sparked a kind of "witchhunt" where everyone had to "rat out" anyone else they knew who was participating in Bethel Bible studies. These studies turned into a big scandal which were actually forbidden. Then ownership of non-Witness commentaries was questioned, and the actual idea of a "commentary" was questioned -- which was the basic mistake made in the book "Commentary on the Letter of James" which made it considered to be "apostate." Bethelite access to the Bethel Library and Gilead Library was also restricted. Those libraries were full of commentaries of all kinds. Very soon, these libraries were both moved to another building away from Bethelite access, and away from buildings that were residences like 124 and 107 CH. They were now attached to the offices of Writing, Service, etc, and were much harder to get to.  Smaller libraries of only a few of the WTS books and a dictionary replaced them for the average Bethelite's use.

My goodness, a dictatorship. what were they frightened of ? I'm in shock ! 

[Srecko Sostar]

2 minutes ago, The Librarian said:

@JW Insider @Srecko Sostar etc.... please start new topics for your ideas....

This topic is now all over the place.

Thanks.

Ok.

I will start new with topic about CONTEXT. 

greetings!