At what moment "The Truth" has ceased to be "The Truth"?

[Space Merchant]

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Maybe it's not that Jehovah needs me or others to make complaint, BUT maybe Jehovah wants me and others to make complaint. Now that could be a sifting of those that want a clean Org to those that are prepared to remain in a disgusting Org. Jehovah often has heard the voices of His people and then acted on their behalf.

One cannot clean out a problem that is spread out throughout the world like a plague. You can prevent small instances - yes, but as to he problem itself - no. There are also better ways of doing things, better solutions, but people do not want to take advantage of such, one of these solutions is to educate our children on this matter, for if we can teach a child about Strangers, we can do the same for Child Abuse, for this is recommended by Child Abuse and Neglect Services to teach young ones about this, to see the signs.

If the Bible has taught us anything, God does not focus on one man, he focuses on all men, sees their hearts, etc. It is not unknown to anyone that child abuse is within Jehovah's Witnesses, but it is silly to single them out when the problem is all over the place, even in restaurants as of recently.

That being said, problems like this will not cease one's faith at all, if that were the cases, a what if perhaps, kids would not be allowed to go to schools, churches, mosques, synagogues, etc. Restaurants would be off limits to ensure child safety therefore it would task a grown adult to go and buy the food and bring it back. And like I said before, even to all denominations regarding Unitarians, even us Biblical Unitarians, child abuse is an issue, it didn't stop me from professing truth and it allowed some of us to wise up and teach our children so they can teach others to see the signs.

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

So in your opinion what does Jehovah think of the way the GB and Elders deal with the important problems within the JW Org ? Because in my opinion Jehovah is withholding His Holy Spirit from the GB and the Org at this time.  

How are you so sure if you yourself do not judge assume or met them, as you claim? This goes back to your comment of who has God's approval. For he is still a JW, you are not, granted he is one still perhaps he knows way more in regards to what he professes.

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

However i do like that bit where you say "i will end this conversation now because it would appear you are hell bent on exposing only the errors  .... " At least you recognise that there are errors, thank you. 

As with all errors, they must be brought to attention.

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

And you would say that Jesus 'had a big mouth' too then ? The way he spoke to the Pharisees many times. Truth hurts, so you can say i have a big mouth and I will understand your pain. 

He didn't mention Jesus, he mentioned Peter, do not add to someone's word, even of God's, there is a verse for that.

Thinking stated the following: A lot of us don’t follow the GB...we follow,the scriptures and test it out as the beroeans did....you assume we are all puppets...you give no respect to many brothers and sisters who have stronger faith than yourself.....John you have a big mouth.....I can say that because once I did to....Peter had a big mouth too....but he learnt humility...and eventually I learnt it to....and not from any GB...but from reading the scriptures and allowing them to discipline me and correct me....

Now, Thinking on made that response because of your response towards him, which is to a degree true because whenever it comes with someone who actually has something informative to say it does not sit well with you. The young one who spoke of forgiveness, you who claim you do not assume just assume an ordeal he had last year he was not a person who forgives, you also go on to say he equals ExJWs to gangsters when he was referring to gangsters in the Tri-State area, as per my example of something that was actually a true story.

Sometimes you have to see that all JWs are not the same ones you encountered in your original church.

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Is it me that is making the preaching work harder, or the Pedophile elders

And yet previously you say spoke of trick questions, so the question Evo asked proved the point. Those who commit pedophilia do not make up the masses, nor, as per Evo's question, does not make them pedophile lovers.

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Come on, open your eyes, it's earthwide news now.

In all institutions,it never began with JWs or solely engulfs them alone. As far as I am concern the grooming gangs do not make up all of you in the UK, just that small pocket of persons who has an intent to do bad to young British girls. The same way for me and others in the US who are of color or an ethnic background, the actions of a black man does not define all of us. In the JWs case, they are 8.5 million and growing, should one commit these acts, it does not define all the other 8.5 million among them.

You need to open your eyes because you cannot single out a sole group when the problem is all over and in all forms of society even the government i.e. Theresa May who had her hands tied before regarding children, but not of sex abuse.

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

From that viewpoint it doesn't need me to add to it, people out there already know.

Yes they do know, but at the same time, there are people going about, even combating the problem in the best way, not going on a warpath to cease a faith from existence.

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

I don't get involved in the protests but i know there are protests in many countries about the problems within the JW Org.

There has been a few in the UK, some of these protesters also stem into the Robinson party, anti-Islam and a list of other things. A problem with some of these protests is they are also quick to spread conspiracy as well, and I did post some facts about this before, and I thank Jack Ryan who is supposedly an Atheist, for it.

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Has Jehovah planned all this ? Is it serving a purpose ? Is it a testing ?

God is aware that all types of wickedness is in the world, and clearly Christians know that God himself will be the one to make things right. The same issue you have regarding child abuse as with all people who dealt with it in a similar fashion and t pain it brings, this will be mended on God's Day.

If it is a test you speak of, we have to be vigilant and enduring always even in the face of problems.

2 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

But why would anyone want to be part of such an Org that has known about these things for between 20 and 50 years, and not done anything about it apart from keep records ?  

The only reason people join them, and are still growing, is the of the teachings intertwined with their community. Yes some of them will have conflict and or some thing going on with others in their faith community - as with all of us, but it will not stop one from following their faith no matter how you try to knock it.

If you truly believe in God, you would not be oblivious of what he will do to wicked people. A time will indeed come, but as for us, we have to be smart about all things, even in regards of child abuse.

[JOHN BUTLER]

27 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

One cannot clean out a problem that is spread out throughout the world like a plague. You can prevent small instances - yes, but as to he problem itself - no. There are also better ways of doing things, better solutions, but people do not want to take advantage of such, one of these solutions is to educate our children on this matter, for if we can teach a child about Strangers, we can do the same for Child Abuse, for this is recommended by Child Abuse and Neglect Services to teach young ones about this, to see the signs.

If the Bible has taught us anything, God does not focus on one man, he focuses on all men, sees their hearts, etc. It is not unknown to anyone that child abuse is within Jehovah's Witnesses, but it is silly to single them out when the problem is all over the place, even in restaurants as of recently.

That being said, problems like this will not cease one's faith at all, if that were the cases, a what if perhaps, kids would not be allowed to go to schools, churches, mosques, synagogues, etc. Restaurants would be off limits to ensure child safety therefore it would task a grown adult to go and buy the food and bring it back. And like I said before, even to all denominations regarding Unitarians, even us Biblical Unitarians, child abuse is an issue, it didn't stop me from professing truth and it allowed some of us to wise up and teach our children so they can teach others to see the signs.

How are you so sure if you yourself do not judge assume or met them, as you claim? This goes back to your comment of who has God's approval. For he is still a JW, you are not, granted he is one still perhaps he knows way more in regards to what he professes.

As with all errors, they must be brought to attention.

He didn't mention Jesus, he mentioned Peter, do not add to someone's word, even of God's, there is a verse for that.

Thinking stated the following: A lot of us don’t follow the GB...we follow,the scriptures and test it out as the beroeans did....you assume we are all puppets...you give no respect to many brothers and sisters who have stronger faith than yourself.....John you have a big mouth.....I can say that because once I did to....Peter had a big mouth too....but he learnt humility...and eventually I learnt it to....and not from any GB...but from reading the scriptures and allowing them to discipline me and correct me....

Now, Thinking on made that response because of your response towards him, which is to a degree true because whenever it comes with someone who actually has something informative to say it does not sit well with you. The young one who spoke of forgiveness, you who claim you do not assume just assume an ordeal he had last year he was not a person who forgives, you also go on to say he equals ExJWs to gangsters when he was referring to gangsters in the Tri-State area, as per my example of something that was actually a true story.

Sometimes you have to see that all JWs are not the same ones you encountered in your original church.

And yet previously you say spoke of trick questions, so the question Evo asked proved the point. Those who commit pedophilia do not make up the masses, nor, as per Evo's question, does not make them pedophile lovers.

In all institutions,it never began with JWs or solely engulfs them alone. As far as I am concern the grooming gangs do not make up all of you in the UK, just that small pocket of persons who has an intent to do bad to young British girls. The same way for me and others in the US who are of color or an ethnic background, the actions of a black man does not define all of us. In the JWs case, they are 8.5 million and growing, should one commit these acts, it does not define all the other 8.5 million among them.

You need to open your eyes because you cannot single out a sole group when the problem is all over and in all forms of society even the government i.e. Theresa May who had her hands tied before regarding children, but not of sex abuse.

Yes they do know, but at the same time, there are people going about, even combating the problem in the best way, not going on a warpath to cease a faith from existence.

There has been a few in the UK, some of these protesters also stem into the Robinson party, anti-Islam and a list of other things. A problem with some of these protests is they are also quick to spread conspiracy as well, and I did post some facts about this before, and I thank Jack Ryan who is supposedly an Atheist, for it.

God is aware that all types of wickedness is in the world, and clearly Christians know that God himself will be the one to make things right. The same issue you have regarding child abuse as with all people who dealt with it in a similar fashion and t pain it brings, this will be mended on God's Day.

If it is a test you speak of, we have to be vigilant and enduring always even in the face of problems.

The only reason people join them, and are still growing, is the of the teachings intertwined with their community. Yes some of them will have conflict and or some thing going on with others in their faith community - as with all of us, but it will not stop one from following their faith no matter how you try to knock it.

If you truly believe in God, you would not be oblivious of what he will do to wicked people. A time will indeed come, but as for us, we have to be smart about all things, even in regards of child abuse.

I could answer you on many of the things you have written but in honesty i cannot be bothered. There is no point. We have totally different viewpoints, so be it. 

The GB / JW Org have said many times (and it has been in print on here) that a person has to be a JW member to be saved through Armageddon. Now you are not a JW, so you must have your own reasons for not being a JW. And I would think you do not agree with the GB of the JW Org on the point of being saved only through them.  

You must have reasons for not being a JW, yet you defend them so well. It is your choice.

You seem to think I want to destroy the JW religion, you are wrong. I want to see the JW Org cleansed, so that if it is God's chosen organisation then God can use it to the full.  BUT if it is God's chosen religion then you should be careful, as you are not one of them.  So maybe when Jesus comes to judge us he may find that you are not among his faithful followers. 

Now you have said that the number of JW's is increasing, but that may not be in a true sense. As I've said before, they seem to be allowing much younger children to 'put in reports' of doing the ministry. The number of JW's earthwide is counted by the number of people doing the ministry. In the past it would only be the older members, not the very young children, putting in a monthly report. However it would seem possible that very young children are being allowed to put in reports, and so pushing up the numbers falsely. Jesus sent out men, not very young children, into the ministry. The JW Org seems to be doing all it can to make things 'look' good. 

[Space Merchant]

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

I could answer you on many of the things you have written but in honesty i cannot be bothered. There is no point. We have totally different viewpoints, so be it. 

Indeed we do, but one of us is able to see what is going on with today's society while the other does not allow himself to see what is going on in the world.

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

The GB / JW Org have said many times (and it has been in print on here) that a person has to be a JW member to be saved through Armageddon. Now you are not a JW, so you must have your own reasons for not being a JW. And I would think you do not agree with the GB of the JW Org on the point of being saved only through them.  

You sure? This has been discussed. You have to ask yourself, if JWs believe only them are to be saved, and them alone, who on God's earth would they be preaching the gospel to begin with?

Restorationist as a whole believe that only those who apply the true teachings of Bible can benefit from salvation, and as far as anyone's study in Christology, we know who speaks such and who does not.

Any man who has been against God and or other will be subjected to God's Judgement, those who strive to do things for God and apply the teachings of the church, the righteous and the meek will have that chance to benefit from God's promise and what his accomplishment entails.

I made my reasons very clear to you but like you said, you laugh, and through yourself laughing you do not take into anything that is said to you. I study the Christology of others, and this is clear to you as it is because I corrected you not only about JWs, but of Islam and a list of other things. I study religion because I do not want to be like the mainstream ones who take up a word without study and profess a falsehood as a truth, therefore, all the silly ideologies and tactics I do not abide by and not even my own culture would allow me to do such.

That being said, not even the apostolic church believed only them will be said granted they spoke of their own, for that would defeat the purpose of why the Great Commission even exist.

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

You must have reasons for not being a JW, yet you defend them so well. It is your choice.

What I dislike is when people speak of falsehood and conspiracy of others, the very reason I am on the defense, as with the defense of anything pertaining to the early church or the holy spirit among other things.

What I love about Biblical Hermeneutics is it allows you to study and understand interpretations and the study of religion to some degree, understanding Christology and a list of other things, but surely someone such as yourself would not care to give Theological studies a chance when you yourself confused a Strong for an English word.

My choice is to defend against anything

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

You seem to think I want to destroy the JW religion, you are wrong. I want to see the JW Org cleansed, so that if it is God's chosen organisation then God can use it to the full.  BUT if it is God's chosen religion then you should be careful, as you are not one of them.  So maybe when Jesus comes to judge us he may find that you are not among his faithful followers. 

No, do not add on to my words although the influence of Mr. Gardner shows, clearly you are not Mr. Gardner, the one of whom you made known, the one of whom you gave link to support. The ones that are trying to cease a religion are of the other groups and their heads, the same ones that took action last year on this very day.

You have to wake up to reality Mr. Butler, regardless of whom, even the Jehovah's Witnesses, such things that came at the price of sin cannot cease 100%. No one can really do anything about it expect stop small instances of such in addition to educating our youth, the better solutions. Even in the ancient times among God's people there were those who were not in the right, this goes hand in hand with the students of the apostles themselves.

God's people and or religion are to be careful because as as the example I posed before, there is good people and there is bad people, just as there are true and false Christians in around the world, those who are doing things accordingly and those who are not.

And unlike you, I believe 100% that God will get rid of all problems that came from sin because I believe in Him and his Son and the promise of his kingdom, I believe that all things that give us pain, that hinders us, both you and me, will be gone for good, but to lack the lack in belief of God being the one to making things right - in you - shows.

I need not to be careful because put into application of what it means and what it takes to be like a Berean, to put into application discernment, the question is, are you?

Know this, for even those who claim they believe will not even succeed in the end if they do not do things accordingly, keep this in mind.

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Now you have said that the number of JW's is increasing, but that may not be in a true sense. As I've said before, they seem to be allowing much younger children to 'put in reports' of doing the ministry. The number of JW's earthwide is counted by the number of people doing the ministry. In the past it would only be the older members, not the very young children, putting in a monthly report. However it would seem possible that very young children are being allowed to put in reports, and so pushing up the numbers falsely. Jesus sent out men, not very young children, into the ministry. The JW Org seems to be doing all it can to make things 'look' good. 

On the contrary to your unfortunate surprise, it is true. They were at 8.23-8.3 adherents and have gone up to 8.45 as of late, 8.5 adherents. I made mention to this to JTR a while back, for the increase was within a span of months, as with in total the 20 million in conjunction with them.

They haven't pushed these numbers up falsely (No Christians, true or false, make lies about demographics, ever, ironically enough even the crazy mega churches) - do not make a claim to something of which you cannot prove to be true, granted that not only the JWs made this known, but other Christians who count adherents, therefore these numbers are legit.

Children are capable of preaching and professing - you are speaking to one who has been professing since the age of 6 once the biblical knowledge had been applied. As long as a child as the ability to read and take in knowledge, they can preach the gospel themselves and or minister, which was the case of with Jesus when he was younger when he spoke to the priests of the Temple who can spoke with him, and the very fact all Jews who can speak must obverse Shema Yisrael, and knowing the Old Testament, as Jesus had.

No one in Christendom or of Islam (Shia/Sunni) make up lies about their demographic, so do not make claims you cannot cash when some people actually pay attention to such things. You spoke of tricks before - clearly this trick has been seen when the evidence stacks up against you, Mr. Butler. You can seek out the Demographics here if you want: http://www.pewresearch.org/

[Srecko Sostar]

3 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

one of these solutions is to educate our children on this matter,

Can somebody give evidence --- what is Bible teaching about issue of  child molestation inside christian (JW) congregation? In other words ---  HOW Bible educate children about pedophilia? 

[Space Merchant]

24 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Can somebody give evidence --- what is Bible teaching about issue of  child molestation inside christian (JW) congregation? In other words ---  HOW Bible educate children about pedophilia? 

Child Abuse and Neglect Prevention services (https://www.childwelfare.gov/topics/preventing/) instruct even made PSA, where have you been Srecko, under a rock for all these years? And no, never made any mention of using Bible Principles, I simply spoke of better solutions to combat the issue that cannot be stopped at all.

Srecko if you had "read" the discussion you'd see that.

I leave you with one of the questions posed that was given to parents, guardians and or anyone to make note of from a PSA.

What is the most important sign that one has to look out for regarding a potential abuser [school setting - church setting - business setting - public space]? You are free to answer.

[Srecko Sostar]

16 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

where have you been Srecko, under a rock for all these years?

yes, 40+ years in JWorg .... and it can be said -- it was under some sort of rock :))))))) 

be careful, this is cryptic rocky message :)))))))))

[Space Merchant]

5 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

yes, 40+ years in JWorg .... and it can be said -- it was under some sort of rock :))))))) 

be careful, this is cryptic rocky message :)))))))))

Well the thing is Srecko, I am not talking about JWs, I am talking to you, directly, about Child Abuse and Neglect Prevention services (https://www.childwelfare.gov/topics/preventing/) 

So Srecko, this question is posed by those who go through the PSA, for after all you what to prove yourself, it should not be this hard to answer since you are also against child abuse.

What is the most important sign that one has to look out for regarding a potential abuser [school setting - church setting - business setting - public space]? You are free to answer.

And no, this isn't something cryptic, the question addressed is for those who are being trained and or learning the signs of abuse, consider this a basic educational question.

You hid under a rock when this organization of prevention was in existence, come on now, Srecko.

[Srecko Sostar]

3 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

Well the thing is Srecko, I am not talking about JWs, I am talking to you, directly,

but i am talking about JW, Bible and issue

but i am talking about JW, Bible and issue

perhaps bigger font and color will help :=)

[JOHN BUTLER]

• @Space Merchant Quote :  "Indeed we do, but one of us is able to see what is going on with today's society while the other does not allow himself to see what is going on in the world."  How strange you should think that way . 
•  
• .Just as Noah and his God-fearing family were preserved in the ark, survival of individuals today depends on their faith and their loyal association with the earthly part of Jehovah's universal organization." Watchtower 2006 May 15 p.22"                                                                                                                                                                                                 They must appreciate that identifying themselves with Jehovah's organization is essential to their salvation." Kingdom Ministry 1990 Nov p.1

I cannot be bothered to look for more but these two prove the point. 

They preach the 'Good News of God's Kingdom' to bring more people into the JW Org, because they believe it is only when a person is in that Org that people can be saved. 

Sorry SM I do realise it is a waste of my time trying to converse with you. Have a good day. 

[JOHN BUTLER]

@Space Merchant  This was a comment by @JW Insider written in that topic you highlighted. 

"First of all the more generally correct answer is YES, not NO. The question was do Jehovah's Witnesses FEEL that they are the only people who will be saved? In my opinion, millions of them do feel exactly that way, whether or not this matches the official position. In cleaning out 50 years of my parents house for the last week I have read a lot of my deceased grandmother's correspondence with elders, pioneers, and good friends she had all over the world. I was struck by the way assemblies attended in many different nations were often summarized. These ranged from the 1950's up to about 2010. Included in so many of them were expressions like: "Isn't it great to be associated with the only people whom Jehovah will spare through this old system."

I think this helps to prove my point and it is from another person's opinion not just mine. 

[JOHN BUTLER]

* w18 January p. 13 par. 5 Pleasant Unity and the Memorial ***

• By ‘testing whether we are in the faith.’ To do that, we do well to ask ourselves: ‘Do I really believe that I am part of the only organization that Jehovah has approved to accomplish his will?

*** w79 3/1 p. 18 par. 21 Faith in Jehovah’s Victorious Organization ***

• But, steadfastly, devoted Witnesses have kept their faith in Jehovah’s organization. They know which one of all organizations on earth the Almighty God has used . . . . Is there any cause for us to lose faith in Jehovah’s visible organization . . ?

*** w54 11/1 p. 667 par. 19 Walking in Good Behavior ***

• Do we have strong faith in Jehovah’s organization? Then loyally and actively support it. Your regular attendance . .

How much more do you need SM. They think it is only them, 'THE ONLY ORGANISATION'.  And you and I are not one of them. 

[JOHN BUTLER]

I wonder if any of you have ever watched 'Life of Brian'. I must say i didn't realise how bad the language was until i watched it with subtitles. And I will not watch it again. However my point here is that the anti-Romans would sit down and write about what they would do, and that seemed to be their way of getting things done (or not getting things done). All talk and writing, and no action.

Now that seems to be just like the GB of the JW Org. And what excuse, oh of course. Well the rest of the world is like it too. 

Back to the, offering up children to Molech. Well the others were doing it too. 

In the Kid's comment above i can see at least 3 times the 'world' is mentioned. And what are moral like today ?  Come on ,we all know what the world is like (even though SM seems to think i don't know) so what ? 

The JW org is not the world. It is supposed to be NO PART OF THE WORLD.  It should not even be influenced by the world.  So why oh why do they even compare themselves to the world ?  The comparison should only be to what God's standards are, not what mans standards are. 

One thing i find strange is how the Kid seems to say the Watchtower, not the JW org.