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Why John Butler Left Jehovah's Witnesses

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7 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

However I'm a bit surprised that the whole situation hasn't been sorted out yet. But that is mainly because the GB are too frightened to cooperate with Police and official bodies Earthwide. 

 

I feel you are being genuine, that is why I am sorry that you are totally misinformed about the pedophile issue. It must be because you have been looking at the issue from one angle only, and believed every report you hear by those who are obviously biased, and you genuinely believe that Jehovah's Witnesses (GB) have purposefully protected pedophiles. Well you are sincerely wrong. You, and most of us have little in actual personal experiences of how real cases were handled. All we have is court transcripts of cases that were mishandled, and then sensational media coverage, not forgetting those who have an agenda against the Witnesses. I am not denying that elders did mishandle cases, and bodged them up. But we also know that there are cases that were handled correctly, or at least as correctly as possible at the time (please see your inbox).

Trust me, the GB are not too frightened to cooperate with police and official bodies. They have no reason to be. The demand for those documents by Zalkin was a farce and was eventually overturned. No lawyer, or court for that matter, has the right to demand more documents than those that are pertaining to the case. That is what Zalkin was trying to do, and that is why the demand was overturned, and the $4000 fine per day cancelled. Think logically too, do you really think that in America, if the organization was deemed a special haven for pedophiles, that the FBI wouldn't have been involved by now, and raided Headquarters for any documents or proof so that they could take action and protect all those innocent children??  One of the activists against Jehovah's Witnesses with regard to child abuse has written to the FBI twice in the last 5 years (that I know of), asking them to investigate. The FBI has not done so. Why? The activist thinks it's because the FBI does not want to get involved with religious institutions. That is baloney. The FBI will do anything to protect the citizens of America if it deems it necessary.  Here is a recent example: https://www.kyma.com/news/fbi-raids-imperial-valley-ministries/744990452

Religious institutions in America don’t have special permission to harbor criminals or protect them from the government.

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Hankulan Tunani:

I have no agenda other than to try to get people to think correctly, and without examining all the scriptures you quoted  for hard data, context and possible nuances, let me state that it is my understanding that Jehovah's viewpoint on matters and human viewpoints ... their cultural squeamishness and self imposed taboos ... are QUITE DIFFERENT.

As a classic example, it is my understanding that John the Baptist ate LOCUSTS, beut let me tell you dis in no uncertoin toirms I AIN'T EATIN' NO LOCUSTS !

No Way! No How!

Absolutely NOT!

Ain't gonna happen ... unless ... unless ... ( there is almost always an "unless" ...) I have not eaten in four or so days.

 I used to HATE liver ... but one day in Los Angeles, after not having eaten for four days, I found a quarter in some old clothes, and from a street vendor on Vine Street bought a small bag of fried liver.  This was 50 years ago, and I remember that morning in exquisite detail.

The point I am trying to make is this: 

Many things we love, or abhor, Jehovah God has no opinion on whatsoever.

It's "how we were raised", etc.

The Bible MENTIONS cannibalism as something that occurred, several times.

Jehovah Laments that it "came to that" when Jerusalem was under siege by enemies and was being starved into submission.

But unless you can show me a clear and unambiguous direct scripture where Jehovah God specifically FORBADE cannibalism ....

HE DID NOT!

We have an obligation to adopt Jehovah's Standards .... NOT OUR OWN ... when it comes to serious things such as an almost universal human taboo .... OTHERWISE in other more common experiences .. we load heavy burdens on the Brotherhood that are nothing more than "how we were raised" ... which varies from time to time, and from place to place, and dishonors Jehovah God by making him a hand puppet when we are supplying the words!

If you can show me from Jehovah's own specific words about cannibalism that he DID specifically forbid it .. I will instantly change my viewpoint, admit here that I was wrong, and beg your humble pardon.

The burden is on you to show me I am wrong, not that I am a Barbarian, which I freely admit to.

When we "go beyond the things written", it dishonors Jehovah God by making him a false religious hand puppet where we threaten others by invoking the authority of God, where we are supplying the words! ....  and creates a tyranny of the Brotherhood. 

As to your other point ... Jehovah has clearly and unambiguously prohibited the use of blood for sustaining human life.  Many times, OT and NT.

Be a sport!

Give me one exact, unambiguous, contextually accurate specific scripture where God has FORBIDDEN cannibalism, and post it here for all to read and learn from.

 

 

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, Anna said:
5 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

History records they were accused of cannibalism

Now look what you've done! You got JTR started. I hope you two meet in flesh one day. (no pun intended!)

I think TTH and I would get along fine .... I am extending an open invitation for him to come over to my house sometime ... I would be glad to have him for dinner.

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8 hours ago, Anna said:

I think you misunderstood. John Butler is saying that Jesus' true disciples were not pedophiles.

Thank you Anna 

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8 hours ago, Anna said:

I feel you are being genuine, that is why I am sorry that you are totally misinformed about the pedophile issue. It must be because you have been looking at the issue from one angle only, and believed every report you hear by those who are obviously biased, and you genuinely believe that Jehovah's Witnesses (GB) have purposefully protected pedophiles. Well you are sincerely wrong. You, and most of us have little in actual personal experiences of how real cases were handled. All we have is court transcripts of cases that were mishandled, and then sensational media coverage, not forgetting those who have an agenda against the Witnesses. I am not denying that elders did mishandle cases, and bodged them up. But we also know that there are cases that were handled correctly, or at least as correctly as possible at the time (please see your inbox).

Trust me, the GB are not too frightened to cooperate with police and official bodies. They have no reason to be. The demand for those documents by Zalkin was a farce and was eventually overturned. No lawyer, or court for that matter, has the right to demand more documents than those that are pertaining to the case. That is what Zalkin was trying to do, and that is why the demand was overturned, and the $4000 fine per day cancelled. Think logically too, do you really think that in America, if the organization was deemed a special haven for pedophiles, that the FBI wouldn't have been involved by now, and raided Headquarters for any documents or proof so that they could take action and protect all those innocent children??  One of the activists against Jehovah's Witnesses with regard to child abuse has written to the FBI twice in the last 5 years (that I know of), asking them to investigate. The FBI has not done so. Why? The activist thinks it's because the FBI does not want to get involved with religious institutions. That is baloney. The FBI will do anything to protect the citizens of America if it deems it necessary.  Here is a recent example: https://www.kyma.com/news/fbi-raids-imperial-valley-ministries/744990452

Religious institutions in America don’t have special permission to harbor criminals or protect them from the government.

Ok, thanks for feeling I'm being genuine.

( Now for anyone else reading this please note, I am answering a comment. I am not ranting on about Child Abuse again as some say i do. I am giving me viewpoint as an answer to Anna. Even though i know i will get accused of 'playing the same old record'. )

Now. You wrote. "The demand for those documents by Zalkin was a farce and was eventually overturned" 

So you are admitting 'those document 'exist. 

Are we talking here about twenty years worth of Child Abuse Accusations Documents concerning the USA ? 

Are we talking about Child Abuse accusations that were never reported to the Police ? 

In my honest opinion i don't think the American government or FBI give a damn. The JW Org is not a threat to them so they don't care. 

JW Org is in America still because America  is probably the best country for 'freedom' of religion. Basically they can almost say and do what they want in the USA. (Compare to Russia for instance).

But that is all besides the point.  Jesus said 'if they ask for your outer garment give them you inner garment also'  'If you are conscripted to walk a mile, then walk two miles'. In other words always give more than you have to. 

IT SHOULD NOT BE ABOUT WORLDLY LAW. It should be about serving God properly.  Can you not understand that ?

Well obviously the GB don't understand it... 

Your message was about one isolated case. I am talking about Earthwide. 

Here is a link which gives some info about what happened here in the UK. But you probably won't believe it. 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jan/23/jehovahs-witnesses-charity-drops-attempts-to-block-abuse-inquiry

The JW Org here in the UK spent over two years trying to block the Charity Commission's investigation. WHY?

And then it seems it never was a 'full' investigation. So what did the JW Org hold back, we will probably never know. 

Again your write :- 

Trust me, the GB are not too frightened to cooperate with police and official bodies.

So why oh why don't they fully cooperate with all the investigations Earthwide ? 

I could write much more and probs' give you a hundred links, but it would serve no use. You think that your GB are wonderful men and serving God properly.  I think the opposite. We must just agree to differ.

And yes i am genuine.  

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8 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

 I am extending an open invitation for him to come over to my house sometime ... I would be glad to have him for dinner.

Well, I certainly don’t see any downside here. I’ll just put back on the shelf that Twilight Zone episode, ‘To Serve Man,’ and be on my way.

 

1 hour ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

They do not want to be sued out of existence,

 

Say, did you hear that the report that Bethel was on the ropes was completely phony. Apostates had orgasms over that report, I recall, and every opposer here, even many of the faithful, swallowed it hook, line, and sinker. There really is something to be said for that recent study article on avoiding the liars.

 

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1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Say, did you hear that the report that Bethel was on the ropes was completely phony. Apostates had orgasms over that report, I recall, and every opposer here, even many of the faithful, swallowed it hook, line, and sinker. There really is something to be said for that recent study article on avoiding the liars.

I missed both the assertion, and the retraction .... but I did enjoy last weekend's WT Study ... where THREE TIMES they referred to  Elders Tom and John's interactions as a fictional account (Once in the paragraph, and twice in the questions).

It literally made me proud and happy to see it !

That is the way it SHOULD be done if you make up these composite stories to illustrate a point.

This is NEW!  I do not remember EVER seeing this before!

I hope this treatment continues!

I get very depressed watching people with good intentions writing like children telling make-believe stories, and making up illustrations NOT specifically labeled as ONLY illustrations, or composite stories. 

It is sloppy writing,  and intellectually dishonest.

The WT Study conductor was somewhat chagrined at my comment "There are good Detectives, and there are bad Detectives ... and bad detectives do not detect much, even though they are looking at real facts. We need to base our thinking on facts.".  I kept it short, for obvious reasons.

Another few sentences and I would have been on "The List".

 

 

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33 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

but I did enjoy last weekend's WT Study ... where THREE TIMES they referred to  Elders Tom and John's interactions as a fictional account (Once in the paragraph, and twice in the questions).

I managed to torpedo even that. After the paragraphs carrying on and on about Tom’s misguided suspicions, I raised my hand and said: ‘In hindsight I was embarrassed over the whole thing, and I’m glad that I didn’t blow the brother in.’

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37 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

The WT Study conductor was somewhat chagrined at my comment ...Another few sentences and I would have been on "The List".

What is the phone number of your WT conductor?

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2 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Well, I certainly don’t see any downside here. I’ll just put back on the shelf that Twilight Zone episode, ‘To Serve Man,’ and be on my way.

 

Say, did you hear that the report that Bethel was on the ropes was completely phony. Apostates had orgasms over that report, I recall, and every opposer here, even many of the faithful, swallowed it hook, line, and sinker. There really is something to be said for that recent study article on avoiding the liars.

 

I would imagine the JW Org have a lot less money than they did ten years ago.

In the UK at least people are generally poorer and i don't think many act like 'the widow' Jesus spoke about. I would think most give out of their 'surplus wealth', not give their all. Even if some do act as that widow did, it wouldn't amount to much in pure cash terms. 

And with all the legal goings on Earthwide I would think the Org are fast losing money. 

However they are selling Kingdom Halls by the dozen it seems and even larger properties of course, so money is coming in. 

As to how rich money wise they are, probs only the GB really know :) 

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58 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

And with all the legal goings on Earthwide I would think the Org are fast losing money. 

These amounts are generally reduced upon appeal and sometimes thrown out entirely, as was the previous record-holder. The much ballyhooed $4000 a day penalty imposed by some court, which ultimately became a substantial sum, was thrown out by a higher court as judicial overreach, just as @AllenSmith34, practically alone as I recall, said. In that regard, although chased around so much that he had to employ 100 aliases, though nobody else suffers too much for being offensive, he proved himself the MVP of the forum.

Nevertheless, I would never say that they are nothing, nor that they do not add up. Time will tell. It may be that our version of truth will prevail in time and not yours. Will Jehovah go to bat for those who, to the best of their ability, carry out his will? If he does, it will be like putting his finger on the scales. So substantial is his finger that whoever sits on the opposite scale goes hurtling off into oblivion.

To the extent that you succeed in your goal you impede the most selfless and efficient disaster relief program the world has known. Will God allow that? Time will tell. 

Please don't carry on about 'they only help fellow Witnesses.' The reason that they only (for the most part) help fellow Witnesses is that they are mostly volunteers using vacation time, and cannot do everyone. The best they can to is to set an example in selflessness that others can follow, if their heart moves them. So far, their example is not followed by others, who prefer established charities where everyone must be paid and sometimes unbelievable waste occurs. Such as here:

https://www.propublica.org/article/how-the-red-cross-raised-half-a-billion-dollars-for-haiti-and-built-6-homes

This is the model you have chosen, John. Half a million dollars. Almost all of it flushed down the toilet. Embrace it, John. It's yours. JTR too, I think, for he has also waxed enthusiastic over the prospect that the JW relief work may be slowed.

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Wouldn’t this depend on what kind of casualty and liability protection the Watchtower has?

There are many misinformed people on how the Watchtower operates its finances. They don’t have billions of dollars like the Vatican to just through money away. So they find the best solution to protect the integrity of the Watchtower. The GB does not overlook every aspect of the Watchtower operation. Their main function is to interpret scripture as guided by God’s Holy Spirit. They proofread publications to see if there is a Biblical conflict with what is written. The writing department makes up those publications, not the GB. To witnesses, this is all too clear. This means, donated funds are not wasted on frivolous claims. The legal argument is made as a legal process that any business needs to attend to, not because the Watchtower wants to.

I’m sure the POPE dislikes being the center of controversy when it has to do with legal matters. I’m sure he would rather be on his popemobile waving.

Many ex-witnesses seem to have a serious problem not understanding something so obvious.

An appeals court in New York upheld the 4000 a day penalty from San Diego. This doesn’t mean the fat lady has sung yet.

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On 10/10/2018 at 10:48 AM, JOHN BUTLER said:

The WT says the following, for this is but one of several: The need to be humble was repeatedly stressed by Jesus: Become like a little child; take a lowly seat at a banquet; when praying be like the lowly tax collector, not like the self-righteous Pharisee. Note also that a command to be humble served as the springboard for Jesus’ scathing denunciation of the proud and hypocritical religious leaders of his day. In striking contrast to their proud course was the humble course of Jesus, that of honoring God at all times: “I do nothing of my own initiative.” His very coming to earth as well as his entire earthly sojourn was a shining example of humility, as the apostle Paul so clearly shows at Philippians 2:5-8. Typical of Jesus’ humility was his willingness to wash the feet of his apostles.—Matt. 18:3, 4; Luke 14:7-11; 18:9-14; Matt. 23:12; John 8:28; 13:5.

They also have more to say,

So applying the expression to these two classes, it becomes understandable in all its different settings, and makes sense whether referring to situations in Israel in Jesus’ day among the Jews, or referring to the addition of Gentiles to the church class, or to conditions in Christendom in these last days. The exalted clergy class once thought to be first are abased to last, and humble ones abased to last God exalts to first position with him.—Luke 14:11.

SM will you please give me exact publications these quotes came from. Thank you. 

Simply go to their online library, look up the verse and viola, as easy as making scrambled eggs.

Biblehub and Gateway you simply scroll down and or look for commentary or it is spotted under Bible Study Tools website.

22 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Yes i think he likes to look very intelligent and knowledgeable to everyone. However I'm not impressed. 

That because I am. It is not something done on purpose for I have said knowledge is power. I do not care for I didn't come to impress, I come to correct.

Also your trust in the guardian is somewhat.... telling.

 

As for the other thing you said, most news media, news outlets and the like are not always trusted, for me, personally, I go to independent sources, 3 of which are very credible, mainly when it comes to world affairs and things happening, like in Israel and so forth, another in Russia.

 

But it would seem someone who is educated offends you and others here. No worries. This is the case with those are as so, for the care isn't there but the information still presses forward.

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4 minutes ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Wouldn’t this depend on what kind of casualty and liability protection the Watchtower has?

There are many misinformed people on how the Watchtower operates its finances. They don’t have billions of dollars like the Vatican to just through money away. So they find the best solution to protect the integrity of the Watchtower. The GB does not overlook every aspect of the Watchtower operation. Their main function is to interpret scripture as guided by God’s Holy Spirit. They proofread publications to see if there is a Biblical conflict with what is written. The writing department makes up those publications, not the GB. To witnesses, this is all too clear. This means, donated funds are not wasted on frivolous claims. The legal argument is made as a legal process that any business needs to attend to, not because the Watchtower wants to.

I’m sure the POPE dislikes being the center of controversy when it has to do with legal matters. I’m sure he would rather be on his popemobile waving.

Many ex-witnesses seem to have a serious problem not understanding something so obvious.

 

An appeals court in New York upheld the 4000 a day penalty from San Diego. This doesn’t mean the fat lady has sung yet.

 

That's pretty much what is being talked about all over the place. But when people speak up, disgruntled ones will also speak and they will attack.

Not all former JWs are on a warpath like their counterparts, but those that are on a warpath will be going nowhere.

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On 10/10/2018 at 11:24 AM, Srecko Sostar said:

Dear friend, if you are so busy in helping people in need, how you find time to respond on "stupid" things and loosing your valuable time on me and similar like me.?! :) 

I have the time and I make the time. If you noticed, there  is a certain amount of time I am on and other times I am absent.

Ah, using the word "stupid" now are we.... I it makes me question if I am dealing with a grown man or a mere child. I guess the term in application should the obvious, especially with the little smiley face at the end, so therefore, I know the type cryptic person I am dealing with. Your a grown man, that word is beneath you, or is that so.

That being said, whenever it is not something technical, I spend most of my time at a Boys and Girls Club, helping the little ones, of which last time you assume you need to be a doctor or some sort to help out.... An absurd claim, on your part.

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    • By JOHN BUTLER
      Jehovah has clearly and unambiguously prohibited the use of blood for sustaining human life.  Many times, OT and NT.
      Can I question this point please ?
      Did Jesus ever forbid the use of blood to save a human life ?  Can you show me a scripture where JESUS forbids the use of blood to save a human life ? 
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