Why John Butler Left Jehovah's Witnesses

[Space Merchant]

4 minutes ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Wouldn’t this depend on what kind of casualty and liability protection the Watchtower has?

There are many misinformed people on how the Watchtower operates its finances. They don’t have billions of dollars like the Vatican to just through money away. So they find the best solution to protect the integrity of the Watchtower. The GB does not overlook every aspect of the Watchtower operation. Their main function is to interpret scripture as guided by God’s Holy Spirit. They proofread publications to see if there is a Biblical conflict with what is written. The writing department makes up those publications, not the GB. To witnesses, this is all too clear. This means, donated funds are not wasted on frivolous claims. The legal argument is made as a legal process that any business needs to attend to, not because the Watchtower wants to.

I’m sure the POPE dislikes being the center of controversy when it has to do with legal matters. I’m sure he would rather be on his popemobile waving.

Many ex-witnesses seem to have a serious problem not understanding something so obvious.

 

An appeals court in New York upheld the 4000 a day penalty from San Diego. This doesn’t mean the fat lady has sung yet.

 

That's pretty much what is being talked about all over the place. But when people speak up, disgruntled ones will also speak and they will attack.

Not all former JWs are on a warpath like their counterparts, but those that are on a warpath will be going nowhere.

[Space Merchant]

On 10/10/2018 at 11:24 AM, Srecko Sostar said:

Dear friend, if you are so busy in helping people in need, how you find time to respond on "stupid" things and loosing your valuable time on me and similar like me.?!  

I have the time and I make the time. If you noticed, there  is a certain amount of time I am on and other times I am absent.

Ah, using the word "stupid" now are we.... I it makes me question if I am dealing with a grown man or a mere child. I guess the term in application should the obvious, especially with the little smiley face at the end, so therefore, I know the type cryptic person I am dealing with. Your a grown man, that word is beneath you, or is that so.

That being said, whenever it is not something technical, I spend most of my time at a Boys and Girls Club, helping the little ones, of which last time you assume you need to be a doctor or some sort to help out.... An absurd claim, on your part.

[JOHN BUTLER]

51 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

Simply go to their online library, look up the verse and viola, as easy as making scrambled eggs.

Biblehub and Gateway you simply scroll down and or look for commentary or it is spotted under Bible Study Tools website.

That because I am. It is not something done on purpose for I have said knowledge is power. I do not care for I didn't come to impress, I come to correct.

Also your trust in the guardian is somewhat.... telling.

 

As for the other thing you said, most news media, news outlets and the like are not always trusted, for me, personally, I go to independent sources, 3 of which are very credible, mainly when it comes to world affairs and things happening, like in Israel and so forth, another in Russia.

 

But it would seem someone who is educated offends you and others here. No worries. This is the case with those are as so, for the care isn't there but the information still presses forward.

I asked you to supply the details of the WT you quoted and you haven't, enough said. 

When you say other people don't back up their words I will remember this. 

Knowledge you have indeed, but you lack Spiritual Wisdom SM. 

You go to independent sources do you. Ah of course you have your own personal spies inside the JW Org, well done. 

You don't offend me SM, i find you entertaining, like a clown. You help me to laugh and relax. 

Have a great day. 

[JOHN BUTLER]

2 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

These amounts are generally reduced upon appeal and sometimes thrown out entirely, as was the previous record-holder. The much ballyhooed $4000 a day penalty imposed by some court, which ultimately became a substantial sum, was thrown out by a higher court as judicial overreach, just as @AllenSmith34, practically alone as I recall, said. In that regard, although chased around so much that he had to employ 100 aliases, though nobody else suffers too much for being offensive, he proved himself the MVP of the forum.

Nevertheless, I would never say that they are nothing, nor that they do not add up. Time will tell. It may be that our version of truth will prevail in time and not yours. Will Jehovah go to bat for those who, to the best of their ability, carry out his will? If he does, it will be like putting his finger on the scales. So substantial is his finger that whoever sits on the opposite scale goes hurtling off into oblivion.

To the extent that you succeed in your goal you impede the most selfless and efficient disaster relief program the world has known. Will God allow that? Time will tell. 

Please don't carry on about 'they only help fellow Witnesses.' The reason that they only (for the most part) help fellow Witnesses is that they are mostly volunteers using vacation time, and cannot do everyone. The best they can to is to set an example in selflessness that others can follow, if their heart moves them. So far, their example is not followed by others, who prefer established charities where everyone must be paid and sometimes unbelievable waste occurs. Such as here:

https://www.propublica.org/article/how-the-red-cross-raised-half-a-billion-dollars-for-haiti-and-built-6-homes

This is the model you have chosen, John. Half a million dollars. Almost all of it flushed down the toilet. Embrace it, John. It's yours. JTR too, I think, for he has also waxed enthusiastic over the prospect that the JW relief work may be slowed.

TTH you are burbling, have you been on the bottle ? 

To the extent  that i succeed in my goal ? What goal ?  All i would like is for the JW Org to be cleaned up so that if Jehovah wants to use it fully then He is able to. 

I have said previously that i don't agree with massive 'pay outs' but that victims should receive some compensation. 

Here in UK 'treatment' ( for things like depression / attempted suicide etc ) can be free, but in USA and other countries it may be expensive. Hence some compensation for having suffered at the hands of a pedophile is not too much to ask.

And the bit about 'they only help fellow witnesses' is completely lost on me. I have no idea what you are talking about. As far as I know I've never mentioned this point. 

I hope you feel better soon Tom. 

 

[JOHN BUTLER]

1 hour ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Wouldn’t this depend on what kind of casualty and liability protection the Watchtower has?

There are many misinformed people on how the Watchtower operates its finances. They don’t have billions of dollars like the Vatican to just through money away. So they find the best solution to protect the integrity of the Watchtower. The GB does not overlook every aspect of the Watchtower operation. Their main function is to interpret scripture as guided by God’s Holy Spirit. They proofread publications to see if there is a Biblical conflict with what is written. The writing department makes up those publications, not the GB. To witnesses, this is all too clear. This means, donated funds are not wasted on frivolous claims. The legal argument is made as a legal process that any business needs to attend to, not because the Watchtower wants to.

I’m sure the POPE dislikes being the center of controversy when it has to do with legal matters. I’m sure he would rather be on his popemobile waving.

Many ex-witnesses seem to have a serious problem not understanding something so obvious.

An appeals court in New York upheld the 4000 a day penalty from San Diego. This doesn’t mean the fat lady has sung yet.

 

Oh wouldn't it be nice if the GB could interpret scripture by being guided by God's Holy Spirit.

They could stop guessing then and stop getting it all wrong as they do. 

 

[Space Merchant]

22 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

I asked you to supply the details of the WT you quoted and you haven't, enough said. 

You were formerly a Jehovah's Witnesses, surely you are not barred from your the very website you can still pull pictures from.

22 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

When you say other people don't back up their words I will remember this. 

Indeed, because nowhere in the Bible was a disciple of Christ was being tempted to kill out of his own will, thus the one of whom I speak of shed no information to back up his claim, you can remember this, but what was said has been said.

Do what you must.

22 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Knowledge you have indeed, but you lack Spiritual Wisdom SM.

How so? Give an example, for instance, Peter's nakedness when fishing. Everything said is correct, mainly with the Ambassadors and the supplication thing - correct. If you want to put my Spirituality to the test so be it, but as I told Srecko and Witness, stick to the scripture, but every time when this is said they run back to the Watchtower, when I even said even they cannot help them.

So if you want to test my spiritual wisdom, we can start with this: How can you have free will if it is punishment for disobedience?

Surely for someone who studies and read the Word daily, this one should be a no-brainer.

If I am lacking, enlighten me.

My day would be great if you can get Spiritual with this one.

22 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

You go to independent sources do you. Ah of course you have your own personal spies inside the JW Org, well done. 

Free Radio Europe are not spies. They operate in the EU and were among the many barred by the State Duma new laws regarding outside broadcasting in Russia. Jake Morphonios isn't a spy because of him information about Las Vegas survivors who were killed is made public and a list of other things. Tim Pool, Soulja of God, Max Igan, T.A.U., Stefan Molyneux and a list of others... Tell me, are they spies? Surely they do not adhere to the mainstream media, for at least some of them had the audacity to speak of of grooming gangs while your own people target a whole faith community for the actions of a few in the UK and so forth bring chaos into a park because of it.

Also Butler, you make a claim, I suggest you offer proof. What spies to I have in a faith community? I merely study Christianity, Judaism and Islam, why would I waste my own time spying?

This claim of yours is as absurd as a cow in a dress...

There is a thing called Biblical and Theological studies.

22 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

You don't offend me SM, i find you entertaining, like a clown. You help me to laugh and relax. 

As to when and where I have offended you, as you claim? Ah and yes, of course. I guess knowing way too much of the bible makes me a clown in your eyes, as Paul to those who throw him out of the city.

I am glad I do, your remark on Peter's nakedness was quite amusing or what I sent over to the Christians against masturbation community, they had quite colorful words for you.

[JOHN BUTLER]

7 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

You were formerly a Jehovah's Witnesses, surely you are not barred from your the very website you can still pull pictures from.

Indeed, because nowhere in the Bible was a disciple of Christ was being tempted to kill out of his own will, thus the one of whom I speak of shed no information to back up his claim, you can remember this, but what was said has been said.

Do what you must.

How so? Give an example, for instance, Peter's nakedness when fishing. Everything said is correct, mainly with the Ambassadors and the supplication thing - correct. If you want to put my Spirituality to the test so be it, but as I told Srecko and Witness, stick to the scripture, but every time when this is said they run back to the Watchtower, when I even said even they cannot help them.

So if you want to test my spiritual wisdom, we can start with this: How can you have free will if it is punishment for disobedience?

Surely for someone who studies and read the Word daily, this one should be a no-brainer.

If I am lacking, enlighten me.

My day would be great if you can get Spiritual with this one.

Free Radio Europe are not spies. They operate in the EU and were among the many barred by the State Duma new laws regarding outside broadcasting in Russia. Jake Morphonios isn't a spy because of him information about Las Vegas survivors who were killed is made public and a list of other things. Tim Pool, Soulja of God, Max Igan, T.A.U., Stefan Molyneux and a list of others... Tell me, are they spies? Surely they do not adhere to the mainstream media, for at least some of them had the audacity to speak of of grooming gangs while your own people target a whole faith community for the actions of a few in the UK and so forth bring chaos into a park because of it.

Also Butler, you make a claim, I suggest you offer proof. What spies to I have in a faith community? I merely study Christianity, Judaism and Islam, why would I waste my own time spying?

This claim of yours is as absurd as a cow in a dress...

There is a thing called Biblical and Theological studies.

As to when and where I have offended you, as you claim? Ah and yes, of course. I guess knowing way too much of the bible makes me a clown in your eyes, as Paul to those who throw him out of the city.

I am glad I do, your remark on Peter's nakedness was quite amusing or what I sent over to the Christians against masturbation community, they had quite colorful words for you.

I'm not barred,  i am a 'member' with my own password. But you put up paragraphs from WT, with no reference. I was wondering if it was modern Watchtower or from fifty years ago. But no matter. if you cannot back it up, I'll just forget it. 

We will still not see eye to eye on the Peter's nakedness issue.  But once again so be it.

As for free will it has limitations. A bit like saying Adam was perfect but he couldn't jump of a mountain and fly. 

We have free will to serve God or not. But either way there will be a reaction to our actions. 

The spy thing was sarcasm as I'm sure you realised.  What i meant was you have to get your information from somewhere or some one. So you have to 'trust ' them to be telling the truth. 

People 'study' Theology as if it is just another subject, like mechanics. They look at it from a human standpoint. If you look at God's word from a practical human standpoint it does not look true or possible. The 'miracles' from start to finish in God's word look totally impossible. It has to be seen from a spiritual viewpoint, which most people cannot do. Hence the difference between the physical man and the spiritual man. 

And by the way it was you in your comment that said you offend people. I said you don't offend me, you amuse me. 

 

[JOHN BUTLER]

16 minutes ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Which ecclesiastical interpretation are you comparing it to? Mind you be specific as not to use your own.

On the other hand, Do you believe you have the spiritual temperament to have God choose someone like you?

No God would not choose me for many reasons. I'm not of the anointed class, I'm not spiritual enough and do not have enough self control. I'm not reliable enough and not well balanced mentally. 69 years old and suffered in many ways, it has all taken its toll on me. 

Of course if God wanted to use me in some way then He can do anything and give 'strength' to anyone. But it is very unlikely He would want to use me.  

But, we have to ask, if God is using the GB then why have they got so many things wrong and from the beginning of the 'movement', the Bible students got so much wrong too.  So many things were not done God's way I would imagine. 

The mishandling of the Child Abuse situation is just the tip of the iceberg. 

 

[Srecko Sostar]

1 hour ago, Space Merchant said:

as I told Srecko and Witness, stick to the scripture,

Many people are "stick" to scripture for many century till now ....and what human got from that?  

Many members in many religions "stick" to scripture ....and ?.... they are all, in fact, in disagree - HOW TO "STICK".

And as same result on issue, You offer Your view how should me, Witness, etc "stick" to scripture according to Your vision.  

Please SM,... call me as you wish, go and explain other people here, who and what i am according to your perception, but wake up yourself from the dream about self picture you build about own role in defending few or more religious systems that leading people in to confrontations and holding them in, keep them in opposing camps. 

By your "correcting" some people here, if some say something against Judaism, Islam or JW ...or perhaps some else church , you are in fact not defending one thing, guess what thing? You said as this: I, SM defend JEW "Truth", defend ISLAM "Truth", defend JW "Truth". 

Please remind me again WHAT TRUTH You in fact wish, want to defend??!!    :)))

 

[JOHN BUTLER]

25 minutes ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

What would be another side of your argument? What if the Watchtower got it right? What then. It seems the Pharisees used the same argument for Jesus. Was Jesus wrong? Pastor Russell decided, it was time to distance himself from all the misunderstandings Christendom had to offer. What part of a literal hell do you still believe in? What part of killing another in the name of patronage and God do you still subscribe to?

The Beginnings of the Watchtower was in learning the truth as taught by. Christendom taught what was appealing to their agenda. Repent or go to hell. Something that is still played out today.

But at least you’re honest with yourself to know, with the temperament and hatred, you could not be chosen by God unless you honestly repented in his eyes as did the apostles. Remember only you have the power to save your own soul. Don’t waste it. Never say never.

The Watchtower has dealt with child abuse for decades now. The problem is not the message. What makes it a problem is the new laws introduced to accommodate the new legal language that has changed. The Watchtower is adapting itself to those changes as it has done in the past.

Now SM probably didn’t show evidence due to copyright laws that someone here mentioned. We need to start honoring those laws just as we would for anything else. That is the Christian way. Just like you stop at a stop sign or a traffic light to honor your local laws, then it is a no-brainer.

? this is just an observation. I haven’t read SM’s mind.  As for your age, you and James have something in common.

 

It's really my bed time, so I'll be brief and won't get any books out for reference but :-

In the late 1800's they knew Christmas was wrong but they carried on celebrating it until 1926 (?)

In the late 1800's or early 1900's they knew smoking was against Jehovah's will, misuse of their body which they had dedicated to God,  but smoking was allowed until 1970. 70 years of sin in that case. 

In the 1960's / early 1970's they taught that each 'Creative day' was 7,000 years long, and then it was presumed that  the 'rest day' of God would be the same. So it was taught that after 6,000 years of humans living on earth then Armageddon would come. They came up with a date of 1975, and at that time many witnesses sold their houses, businesses and gave up everything expecting Armageddon. But it never happened. My point on this one is not the 1975 date, as we know, that no one knows the day or the hour.   My point is that the Organisation taught that each 'Creative Day' was 7,000 years long. However now they say they don't know how long a Creative day was. 

then we have scriptures :-

How many times have they changed the meaning of the scripture  "This generation will not pass away....  "  At least three times.

How many times have they changed the meaning of the scripture Romans 13 v 1. 

Let every person* be in subjection to the superior authorities,a for there is no authority except by God;b the existing authorities stand placed in their relative positions by God.

 It really is my bedtime, I'm very tired so i hope most of this makes sense. 

But i hope these things prove my point and can give you some idea why i do not trust the GB and do not believe they are the faithful and discreet slave. 

[Space Merchant]

17 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

I'm not barred,  i am a 'member' with my own password. But you put up paragraphs from WT, with no reference. I was wondering if it was modern Watchtower or from fifty years ago. But no matter. if you cannot back it up, I'll just forget it. 

You spoke of yourself to be a former member of the Jehovah's Witnesses, pretty much a free agent Christian, so to speak, for passwords and logins are meaninglessness, for the focus was being an actual member vs. being a former member, you said you use to be one of Jehovah's Witnesses and you explained yourself the first time I ever responded to you.

And oh, I can back it up, was trying to see if you'd actually take the time yo look it up yourself, as you did with the Biblehub response, of which didn't end too well for you. Here you go: https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/b/r1/lp-e/nwt/E/2013/42/14#s=11&study=discover&v=42:14:11 you can see under marginal references of listed publication and non-outlined cross references.

I can always back up my information, do not underestimate Mr. Butler because it will always come back to haunt you.

17 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

We will still not see eye to eye on the Peter's nakedness issue.  But once again so be it.

It's a reminder. Because all that is said is 100% true, just like the Ambassadors and the whole bit about supplication - all correct in regards to the Strong's.

17 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

As for free will it has limitations. A bit like saying Adam was perfect but he couldn't jump of a mountain and fly. 

Good attempt, but not close regarding this question. These types of questions are asked by those out there to whom you preach the gospel too. When they seek answers to questions like the one posed, you have to have a good answer with at least 1-2 bible verses and or a single passage to bring up. In this question an example regarding Jesus could have been made, but you missed that opportunity.

If you were an Evangelizing Missionary, you would not last long if this question came up.

But, I give you another shot at answering this question, hence Spiritual Wisdom.

So I'll ask you again:

How can you have free will if it is punishment for disobedience?

17 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

The spy thing was sarcasm as I'm sure you realised.  What i meant was you have to get your information from somewhere or some one. So you have to 'trust ' them to be telling the truth. 

I said somewhere before I do not get sarcasm, therefore, I see the response as literal, for spying in faith community is very absurd. That being said, these sources are indeed trusted. I can guarantee you, 110% that these sources are legit and I have relied on them for sometime now, mainly when I post information about Israel, the Religion of Babylon, and other things.

17 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

People 'study' Theology as if it is just another subject, like mechanics. They look at it from a human standpoint. If you look at God's word from a practical human standpoint it does not look true or possible. The 'miracles' from start to finish in God's word look totally impossible. It has to be seen from a spiritual viewpoint, which most people cannot do. Hence the difference between the physical man and the spiritual man. 

Not quite, some take such a study as if it is a lifestyle, to be forever learning of the True God, his Son and the Kingdom. What God's message through the Bible conveys and so forth. One does not look at it from a human standpoint, of which this is the point I made regarding Tradition of Men and or Man's Understanding time and time again, and man's understanding does not have quite the relationship with pure biblical hermeneutics, i.e. 2 Corinthians 5:20 or when one brings up John 20:28 for instance, they can fully explain to you the truth of this verse vs. those who use man's understanding to assume Jesus is God, when in reality such ones avoid the final verse and Thomas' first mention and later mention in the New Testament.

God's Word isn't impossible, nor his his Laws burdensome, yet we have folks wanting to cherry pick, twist and even say to others that this or that of God's Laws shouldn't be followed, or the fact that Jesus entrusted the Church with commands of which today's folk deem it too harsh.

And yes I am spiritual, hence why I did you the honor of giving you quite the question.

[Space Merchant]

@Srecko Sostar And yet you have not [stick to scripture], hence you didn't stick to scripture when you deem Abraham selfish and  one who is influenced but he devil.