Why John Butler Left Jehovah's Witnesses

[Space Merchant]

9 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

It's really my bed time, so I'll be brief and won't get any books out for reference but :-

Rest easy. Of which cannot be done today, can be done tomorrow.

10 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

In the late 1800's they knew Christmas was wrong but they carried on celebrating it until 1926 (?)

This is because Restorationist as they are, they came to that realization very later on, mainly when you have verses like 1 Kings 8:2 and the Jewish Calendar,as well as the origins of the holiday itself. So after learning of such things,  the Jehovah's Witnesses, also known as Bible Students, do not want to offend God by imitating these celebrations which incorporate so much falsehood and are associated with the most horrible beliefs from the past.

15 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

In the late 1800's or early 1900's they knew smoking was against Jehovah's will, misuse of their body which they had dedicated to God,  but smoking was allowed until 1970. 70 years of sin in that case. 

The Bible does not specifically address smoking at all, however, it does provide some examples that offers an answer regarding this.

Now,  no one disputing that obvious fact that smoking is bad for your health. The Bible says that we should cleanse ourselves of every defilement regarding the flesh, to abstain from second-hand smoking and other harmful things.

20 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

In the 1960's / early 1970's they taught that each 'Creative day' was 7,000 years long, and then it was presumed that  the 'rest day' of God would be the same. So it was taught that after 6,000 years of humans living on earth then Armageddon would come. They came up with a date of 1975, and at that time many witnesses sold their houses, businesses and gave up everything expecting Armageddon. But it never happened. My point on this one is not the 1975 date, as we know, that no one knows the day or the hour.   My point is that the Organisation taught that each 'Creative Day' was 7,000 years long. However now they say they don't know how long a Creative day was. 

They never claimed or say Armageddon would start in 1975, therefore, the claims are incorrect.

They still adhere to the 6,000 years of Creation.

22 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

then we have scriptures :-

How many times have they changed the meaning of the scripture  "This generation will not pass away....  "  At least three times.

How many times have they changed the meaning of the scripture Romans 13 v 1. 

Let every person* be in subjection to the superior authorities,a for there is no authority except by God;b the existing authorities stand placed in their relative positions by God.

As o what meaning has changed? The Strong's are still correct in accordance with the manuscripts and other sources.

Also can you provide more detailed information of the 3 times they changed this?

28 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

It really is my bedtime, I'm very tired so i hope most of this makes sense. 

But i hope these things prove my point and can give you some idea why i do not trust the GB and do not believe they are the faithful and discreet slave. 

Well you have to provide more details, as for the other stuff that has been debunked and the truth came to light.

That being said, if you dislike and do not trust them, you are not doing yourself a favor by using their website.

[Space Merchant]

1 hour ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Now SM probably didn’t show evidence due to copyright laws that someone here mentioned. We need to start honoring those laws just as we would for anything else. That is the Christian way. Just like you stop at a stop sign or a traffic light to honor your local laws, then it is a no-brainer.

No at all, no copyright issues. The verse can easily be found on the main website of Jehovah's Witnesses' online Library, by simply clicking on the verse it gives you references as well as books and publications regarding the use of this verse and or passage. In a way, it is similar to the other Bible sites but not as complex. The Jehovah's Witnesses online library does not have commentary information, but they do quote people sometimes.

But yeah, it was not that hard to look up, granted he is using their website to pull his information, must've forgotten about the online library.

1 hour ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

The Beginnings of the Watchtower was in learning the truth as taught by. Christendom taught what was appealing to their agenda. Repent or go to hell. Something that is still played out today.

Yes. People, even here remain ignorant to the fact that Jehovah's Witnesses, at their core, even as Bible Students are Restorationist, hence Restorationist Christianity. Be it a single person or group, such ones are hardcore in striving to the teachings and practices of the early apostolic church.

The irony here is the early church never believed in hell being the lake of fire but mainstream Christians teach this heresy, for in reality hell is simply the grave, for David is spoken of of making his bed in hell, Jonah, he himself was in the depths of hell, and so forth. They ignore the fact God reacted emotionally to fire torment in the Old Testament it was spoken of several times.

[Anna]

20 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Now. You wrote. "The demand for those documents by Zalkin was a farce and was eventually overturned" 

So you are admitting 'those document 'exist. 

 

Yes, of course there are documents, no one has ever denied that. A report is written after any judicial committee, there has to be order. Correspondence and all other pertinent communication is saved, that is a normal procedure with ANY establishment. I really do not understand why you would think otherwise.....

20 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Are we talking here about twenty years worth of Child Abuse Accusations Documents concerning the USA ? 

Are we talking about Child Abuse accusations that were never reported to the Police ?  

Both of course.

20 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

In my honest opinion i don't think the American government or FBI give a damn. The JW Org is not a threat to them so they don't care. 

Yes, that is your opinion. But the opinion of many others is that JW org. are a threat to children. That children get molested at every KH and that those molesters get away scot free, and therefore pose a threat to the rest of society. I would say that is a pretty serious threat!  If you looked at that link, the FBI got involved in a much less serious case, and a single case at that! If the FBI thought the organization held important secret documents involving a ring of pedophilia, they would try and get them. Child sexual molestation is a crime, and surely those who protect pedophiles are criminals are they not?

20 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

IT SHOULD NOT BE ABOUT WORLDLY LAW. It should be about serving God properly.  Can you not understand that ?

Well obviously the GB don't understand it... 

Yes, I understand that and agree. So could you be a little more specific about where they are failing to serve God properly?

20 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Here is a link which gives some info about what happened here in the UK. But you probably won't believe it. 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jan/23/jehovahs-witnesses-charity-drops-attempts-to-block-abuse-inquiry

The JW Org here in the UK spent over two years trying to block the Charity Commission's investigation. WHY?

I have read about this before. I have a why question for you too. The report says.........."....the WTBTS had shared some of the documents it had been seeking and the commission had since cancelled the production order. WHY do you think that is? Why would a commission cancel an order? Think about it logically. It can't be because they are giving up on the children surely? So there must be another reason. I know what it is. But I would like you to figure it out.

20 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Again your write :- 

Trust me, the GB are not too frightened to cooperate with police and official bodies.

So why oh why don't they fully cooperate with all the investigations Earthwide ? 

As far as I know they have cooperated with every investigation, such as the ARC including the charity commission you mention in the link:

A spokesman for the WTBTS said: “In light of the progress of the inquiry and the information obtained by the commission from Watch Tower and other sources, the commission has agreed to revoke the production order. Watch Tower has therefore agreed to withdraw its application for judicial review of the production order and a consent order has been filed with the high court to conclude the proceedings.

“Watch Tower will now work with the commission to explore the issues that are the subject of the statutory inquiry and to address the commission’s regulatory concerns.”

As for those documents Zalkin wanted WT to produce, he had no right to them whatsoever. He only wanted them because of $$$$ for himself.

You are being little naive if you think otherwise. Why don’t you email Zalkin and ask him what percentage of the litigation money did poor Jose Lopez get after the settlement? He can’t divulge the amount, but he can surely give you a percentage. That’s if he will even reply to a small fry like you. You’ve got to know corporate America where they charge you for every fart. I’ve lived here for 12 years and I was shocked that you can’t even hold your own baby after giving birth without being charged. Lawyers and doctors are the biggest money makers. You probably wouldn’t understand until you lived here. Zalkin makes the best use of the media to his benefit, to make money of course.

Interestingly on Zalkin’s website he makes this statement under the FA&Q section:

Q:  If I tell my story of what happened as child abuse I suffered, does the lawyer have to report it?

A: I'm often asked the question "If I tell my story of what happened as child abuse I suffered, does the lawyer have to report it?" And the answer is No. Lawyers are not mandated reporters. In fact there are very strict laws in all states that require lawyers to maintain confidential information that is communicated to them by a client or a potential client. Without the permission of that client, the lawyer cannot make any revelation of any of those communications. There's a strict confidentiality requirement. So telling a lawyer your story does not mean that the lawyer will then go and report that story. That lawyer cannot do that.

----------------------

That means a Lawyer cannot report a child molester unless the victim agrees to it. Not so long ago, members of the clergy were not mandated reporters either. This has changed in most states of the USA now. In view of that, elders, (who are considered clergy by the outside world), were not mandated reporters and as such were under no obligation to report a child molester or give any information to anyone, just like the lawyers. Disclosures by child molestation victims were held confidential, just like with the lawyers. Many of these cases are 10, 20, 30 years old when elders were not mandated reporters.....

 

 

 

[Srecko Sostar]

10 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

However now they say they don't know how long a Creative day was. 

yes, WT say so. But despite that, they not want to accept science counting, numbering  when they said how humans are much, much  older then 6000 years. Animals, plants and other organism are counting in millions of years. So, something looks wrong in WT teaching /Bible interpretations/ how human society, starting, beginning of human,  is just 6000 years+ old.   

[Space Merchant]

2 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

That is true. But if you scroll down to the very bottom of JW.org, under terms of use. Choose copyright. You can see how information should be handled. Witnesses should respect that. This is why the Watchtower allows a participant to direct interested people to view the content posted there. A secondhand or third party can lead to misunderstanding of scriptural interpretation.

Please, don’t get me wrong. I wish you no ill will. The Watchtower would prefer if someone needs to compare something that person can simply state their opinion and direct those to JW.org with whatever article you wish to have looked at. Example, *** w18 December p. 10 par. 1 Honor “What God Has Yoked Together” ***

 

 

However, you are doing an excellent job in meeting the Watchtower criteria as to the truth.

 

Agreed. Because one thing I dislike is slander and dishonesty. I am a Christian myself but I have studied other religions too, mainly when others who are disgruntled speak lies even though they are not of that faith, someone has to step up to speak the truth. It is harder in other places I am affiliated with, like Islam for example, although I am not Muslim, I speak the truth about them too as with anyone else, even Jehovah's Witnesses. As for individuals, the truth must be spoken of about them, among the good and the bad, and among the things I detest the most is the mainstream Christendom who have people like James White.

One thing for certain, disgruntled people and or opponents do not like dealing with those who are knowledgeable, in this sense, even knowing a whole lot about the Bible and as you can see, we have several among the bunch who show their true colors, even more when their own information backfires on them.

[TrueTomHarley]

20 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

On ‎10‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 3:14 PM, JOHN BUTLER said:

Yes i think he likes to look very intelligent and knowledgeable to everyone....(His reply: That's because I am)

 

You know, I like this. I just do. I mean, he is. Say it & be done with it & move along, as he does. He is not self-aggrandizing. He doesn't do it to show off. He is merely trying to strike blows for what is truthful.

[Hankulan Tunani]

Wow! The most outrageous claim I have read to date. Children are being molested at every kingdom hall.

I guess we can compare that with society. Children are being molested at every nation, country of this world. We live in a world where anyone can say whatever they want and make it their truth. Works for me. ?

 

[Space Merchant]

12 minutes ago, Hankulan Tunani said:

Wow! The most outrageous claim I have read to date. Children are being molested at every kingdom hall.

I guess we can compare that with society. Children are being molested at every nation, country of this world. We live in a world where anyone can say whatever they want and make it their truth. Works for me. ?

 

Not to mention the silly claims such as all the churches of JWs harbor weapons and rifles under their churches and have bunkers at their headquarters. These same disgruntled people also do not know what trust funds are and actually believe the JWs own a portion of Victoria's Secret and Nintendo, when even a former JW who is aware of what trust funds are, explain everything and yet even with this information, it goes in one ear and out the other, mind you this guy was pretty much telling disgruntled JWs this information and they did everything in their power to shut him up.

That being said, I have mention many times here that child abuse and molestation is everywhere, no one is immune to it, but these same people think that this is only among JWs, for we see nowhere that indicates JWs are immune to such things, granted all men is imperfect. But there are better solutions, even when such is explained, it is ignored and people will continue to bring up outrageous claims left and right and think the information to be as pure as gold when it is nothing more an ore stone. One guy brought this up and he has received death threats and fat shaming from disgruntled JWs, one of which who brought the Hate Parade to this man. I believe Mr. Butler or Matthew made mention of this very man who led the charge against a guy wanting to defend his neighborhood from ExJWs.

Other than that, child abuse and the like is disturbing, but as a guy who helps young ones learn what that is, along with stranger danger, I can, and I am sure others also, can think instead of putting hate and pressure into one group, people can be better than hat but they choose not to be better, in this sense.

Well you know what they say about some, hate is like a chain around the necks of people, they will always find something to hate someone or some group not realizing what they dislike is taking place around them, even in their own household in most cases.

[Hankulan Tunani]

33 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

Not to mention the silly claims such as all the churches of JWs harbor weapons and rifles under their churches and have bunkers at their headquarters. These same disgruntled people also do not know what trust funds are and actually believe the JWs own a portion of Victoria's Secret and Nintendo, when even a former JW who is aware of what trust funds are, explain everything and yet even with this information, it goes in one ear and out the other, mind you this guy was pretty much telling disgruntled JWs this information and they did everything in their power to shut him up.

Whatever happened to the first defense for child abuse is their own parents. It seems parents just like the government decided to push that responsibility to the church. It’s silly to think that any religion would know the personal family life of individuals, just because they are Christian. I wonder who decided Christianity is like programming a robot.

I’d like to see the crystal ball that gives religion that ability. The day science can come up with the ability to read someone else mind, then it will be the fault of the reader for not saying something. Until then, we have to accept there will be some frivolous claims.

Are their victims, there are. But when victims contribute to their own circumstance, what then? Who becomes the victim when lawyers only see money? And prosecutors only see an easy win. And their not interested in the truth as it was with the Supreme Court confirmation hearing. Republicans were never really interested in the truth, just the notch on trumps belt. ?

Now that judge is going to decide on cases that he himself was accused of, that’s man’s judicial system at its best.

It’s funny how Trump supporters screamed innocent until proven guilty, without a judicial conclusion, yet the same mentality suggests guilty until proven innocent for the Watchtower. I do love a circus. ?

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

1 minute ago, Hankulan Tunani said:

It’s funny how Trump supporters screamed innocent until proven guilty, without a judicial conclusion, yet the same mentality suggests guilty until proven innocent for the Watchtower. I do love a circus. ?

Well, the Democrats were screaming "guilty until proven innocent".  I watched the whole 9-1/2 hour sad, disgusting thuggery in real time.

Both sides were screaming their viewpoints.

If I accuse you of something vile and despicable, adopting your viewpoint, may I then grab you by the neck and strangle you until you are dead?

If I adopt YOUR philosophy, (which I will not), don't you realize that you are giving me moral permirssion to do EXACTLY THAT?

I am a Barbarian ... with your permission, all I would need is opportunity.

[TrueTomHarley]

34 minutes ago, Hankulan Tunani said:

It’s funny how Trump supporters screamed

I could have told you that JTR would instantly jump in to answer this one. I didn't need a crystal ball for that one.

1 hour ago, Hankulan Tunani said:

Wow! The most outrageous claim I have read to date. Children are being molested at every kingdom hall.

Yeah. The opponents are going bonkers. That is why this might have a place somehow:

 

[Anna]

1 hour ago, Space Merchant said:

These same disgruntled people also do not know what trust funds are and actually believe the JWs own a portion of Victoria's Secret and Nintendo

Really?