Why John Butler Left Jehovah's Witnesses

[JOHN BUTLER]

19 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

I’m sorry to say, you wasted a lot of time for nothing.

I will only indulge you with one point. The Bible student era does not belong in a witness debate unless you are willing to meticulously want to argue word for word.

The Watchtower 1/1/1987 p. 30 Questions from Readers is referring to when the 7000 years would begin. Revelation is the book to understand. The 49,000-week jubilee is another way to show, not the 6000 creative years but the Sabbath the conclusion on which God rested. This will be the resurrection within the 1000 year reign. Nothing more.

I can debate the rest but it seems pointless at this time since the articles have lost their understanding in your point of view since the last portion of your comment answered it for you. You did some good research. Hopefully, someday it will make sense for you.

 

Srecko didn't waste his time, his research was good. 

You on the other hand are a blind person that does not want to see. 

[JOHN BUTLER]

13 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Billy’s right. Often the answer is ‘Who cares?’ 

Bethel only cares that the scriptures not be dissed. They do not presume to instruct scientists on their own turf, and when they do, they back off.

They have referred to the time since the beginning as eons, and the creative days as epochs. Do with those terms what you will. 

Does some view of science back them into a corner? Maybe it will change. If it doesn’t and seems to be valid, new light will take care of it. Let scientists be scientists and Bible teachers be Bible Teachers. It’s amazing how anal some people get.

Are they dogmatic at JW headquarters? They have published an interview with Michael Behe, who accepts evolution in the main, but just insists that it has limits. They wouldn’t have done that if they hated each others guts.

Seems you are another one that cannot face the truth. 

And if the GB don't care about their mistakes / lies, then why should anyone believe a single word they say ? 

And again it proves they are not the 'Faithful and discreet slave', if they tell lies and don't care....  

 

[JOHN BUTLER]

S. M. still does not understand that i don't care what other religions or other books, or other people say. I am only interested in what the GB of the JW Org teach as "truth" from their viewpoint. 

And now SM has taken to judging me as to my spirituality by asking me questions form his own standpoint. And he says I am not spiritual because I don't meet his 'standards'. 

SM is a funny person. But we are all different. 

[Witness]

On 10/6/2018 at 10:50 PM, Paul Dedee said:

Now, the post “Why John Butler Left Jehovah's Witnesses” Trademark

Spiritual “Israel” are the anointed ones.  They are assembled IN THE WATCHTOWER.  Rom 2:28,29; Heb 8:10; Rev 7:4

The disfellowshipping act shows that Jehovah has a clean people who adhere to Scriptural guidelines in order to maintain that holiness.   Wt 15/4/15

 

On 10/7/2018 at 6:10 AM, Paul Dedee said:

I made no such point as you describe the rebuttal other than making certain observations by the posting of a certain commentator by the name of, witness. My observation was made in lieu of the material being used to make a point. A right I believe each owner should prevent from being excessive if they have not been granted certain rights to publish other people’s material. That’s all.

I'll not go into my use of WT quotes, as many already have done so since I've been back here.  I doubt Watchtower consistently asks for the right to publish other's material in their magazines.  They also, purposefully fail to present all the "facts" in a quote they are using.  https://www.theworldnewsmedia.org/topic/70709-do-you-really-have-the-facts/?tab=comments#comment-109244

On 10/6/2018 at 10:50 PM, Paul Dedee said:

Does it really matter why this individual left? There are no restrictions made for any individual to stay. That organization is not Scientology that obligates their members to stay. The Bible states free will and choice.

I very much believe it does matter.  In the case of a victim of child abuse, keeping it quiet has kept pedophiles, hidden. If a pedophile is disfellowshipped without being reported to law enforcement, their hidden crime is kept secret, not only from the congregation but from the public at large.  If the pedophile remains in the congregation with the sin kept secret, and the victim ultimately leaves, all sorts of gossip arises and condemns the person leaving.   Keeping an individual’s reason for leaving, quiet, has been an effective way to hide Watchtower’s sins and shift blame onto the one leaving.   Every case of child abuse against WT that makes headlines has the organization’s standard pat answer, ”we abhor child abuse”.  Surely, I am not the only one who is finding this phrase not only redundant but empty of any compassion or promise of comfort.  

I am not sure if you are a JW or a relative of one, but I write this to all JWs, since the essence of your words is a common belief among them. 

 It does matter, since Jesus said that this rejection of those who love him would happen in the last days.Matt 5:11,12; Luke 12:11,12,51-53; John 16:2; Rev 11:1-3,7; 13:1,2,5-8    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matt+5%3A11%2C12%3B+Luke+12%3A11%2C12%2C51-53%3B+John+16%3A2%3B+Rev+11%3A1-3%2C7%3B+13%3A1%2C2%2C5-8++&version=NKJV

“Blessed are you when men hate you,
And when they exclude you,
And revile you, and cast out your name as evil, “apostate”
For the Son of Man’s sake.”  Luke 6:22

It’s possible many JWs don’t realize this is a reason for disfellowshipping.  When the organization, its prophetic dates, doctrines and the GB is rejected, bringing one to rely purely on Christ and the Father, this gives favorable ground for disfellowshipping on the basis of “apostasy”. 

I believe the presence of the Watchtower and it’s ruling GB, fulfills prophecy, but not as they believe.  There are plenty of dark “restrictions” set in place to make a person hesitant to leave.  Free will and choice can be clouded by threats, which the organization is very good at accomplishing…

 “Yes, Jehovah will disfellowship those who become lawless, turn to darkness and set up idols. He will expel such persons from his organization. If you want to be of the Lord’s organization, keep clean of the Devil’s world. If you do not want to, then get out of it. Those who are impure, immoral, are not spiritually fit for God’s organization. If such lukewarm compromisers or apostates do not voluntarily get out of his organization, then under his direction the organization itself will put them out.”  Wt 52/3/1

“If you are one who has dedicated himself to God, you will seek to obey him and not seek ways to get around his counsel and his laws. You will not seek for loopholes through which you can squirm to avoid some penalizing sanctions from his organization. If you want Jehovah’s blessing and his promised gifts, you must have a keen desire to do what is right in his eyes.”  Wt 65/7/15

…as well as promising that life can only be obtained through “Jehovah’s organization”. 

“It is necessary to stick close to the Lord and his organization to be safe”.  Wt 50/2/15

 “We want to escape all these things that will come upon the world. We want to stand before the Son of man, having his approval. To this end there is a third thing we can do: Stick unbreakably to Jehovah’s theocratic organization. We need to associate unreservedly with that organization and share in its activities. In this way we will unmistakably identify ourselves as Christians who are on the watch.” Wt 95/5/1

We will be impelled to serve Jehovah loyally with his organization if we remember that there is nowhere else to go for life eternal. Wt 92/11/15

“Cooperation with the organization that the “slave” uses is vital if we are to obtain Jehovah’s blessing.” Km 6/95

Need I go on? The Bible may “state free will and choice”, but the Watchtower projects an ugly consequence when one does engage free will.  I have not read in the scriptures where allegiance to a “society”/”organization”/corporation immersed in the finances of the world, which are necessary for its survival, (otherwise JWs would not be hounded relentlessly to donate), is spoken as the way to obtain eternal life. 

This is what I do see:

My soul, wait silently for God alone,
For my expectation is from Him.
⁶ He only is my rock and my salvation;
He is my defense; (my high place, high fort, high tower, refuge)
I shall not be moved.
⁷ In God is my salvation and my glory;
The rock of my strength,
And my refuge, is in God.”  Ps 62:5-7

This, I also see, and I direct its message to the Watchtower organization and its leaders:

This is the ‘stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.’ ¹² Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”  Acts 4:11,12

Watchtower leaders call the Wild Beast of Revelation 13:1, “Satan’s organization”. When referring to 2 Thess 2:3,7-10, they say:

“From those words it is evident that the antichrist, the apostate man of lawlessness, “the mystery of this lawlessness,” is Satan’s masterpiece in the form of an organization. It is an imitation of organized Christianity and so an opposer of it. Wt 81/5/1 pg 12-16   https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Thess+2%3A3%2C7-10&version=CSB

Intentionally, verse 4 was left out, which tells of the Man of Lawlessness “sitting”/ruling in the Temple of God.  Do today’s JWs know that the anointed ones are the Temple of God?   Mal 2:7; Isa 43:10; 1 Pet 2:5,9,10; 1 Cor 3:16,17; 2 Cor 6:16; Eph 2:20-22; Matt 24:15; Rev 11:1-3,7    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mal+2%3A7%3B+Isa+43%3A10%3B+1+Pet+2%3A5%2C9%2C10%3B+1+Cor+3%3A16%2C17%3B+2+Cor+6%3A16%3B+Eph+2%3A20-22%3B+Matt+24%3A15%3B+Rev+11%3A1-3%2C7+++&version=NKJV

Who has been given authority to determine the spiritual standing of the anointed, and anyone?  Elders, who absolutely rule over all in the congregations. Rom 14:4  Should elders, who are spiritually “uncircumcised” replace God’s appointed  “circumcised” priesthood, and  “stand over” (Matt 24:15; Rev 11:1,2) or rule the Temple of God? Rom 2:28,29; Heb 8:10  Not according to scriptures concerning the early priesthood.  God’s decrees are consistent, and His decrees are Truth.   The transgressions of the Man of Lawlessness are based on these decrees. Num 18:7;2 Chron 23:7; Eze 44:6-9; Heb 8:5  https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rom+14%3A4%3B+Matt+24%3A15%3B+Rev+11%3A1%2C2%3B+Rom+2%3A28%2C29%3B+Heb+8%3A10+%3BNum+18%3A7%3B2+Chron+23%3A7%3B+Eze+44%3A6-9%3B+Heb+8%3A5&version=NKJV

Do JWs realize that Revelation’s Wild Beast/organization blasphemes God’s Temple and conquers it’s “living stones” at the time of the end? Their personal “daily sacrifices” as God’s priests (not regurgitated “food” from a wicked slave) are eliminated. Dan 7:7,23-25;8:11,12; 9:27;Rev 13:6,7,16,17  Do you see this being accomplished by the United Nations or the religions of Christendom? Do you believe it will?  Does the UN hold a personal file on all of the anointed ones in the organization, ready to pounce and destroy them?  https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Dan+7%3A7%2C23-25%3B8%3A11%2C12%3B+9%3A27%3BRev+13%3A6%2C7%2C16%2C17&version=NKJV

When speaking about this Wild Beast, WT said,

“To have the mark of this beast upon one’s forehead or hands means that one is giving support to Satan’s organization, mentally or physically, thereby violating the command to “keep oneself without spot from the world.” (Jas. 1:27) Such friendship with the world, however, means enmity with God.”  w62 12/1 pp. 729-730

A quote from the ‘81/5/1 WT referencing Russell’s words of 1884:

“We belong to NO earthly organization; hence, if you should name the entire list of sects, we should answer, No, to each and to all. We adhere only to the heavenly organization —‘whose names are written in heaven.’ (Heb. 12:23; Luke 10:20.) All the saints now living, or that have lived during this age, belonged to OUR CHURCH ORGANIZATION: such are all ONE Church, and there is NO OTHER recognized by the Lord. Hence any earthly organization which in the least interferes with this union of saints is contrary to the teachings of Scripture and opposed to the Lord’s will —‘that they may be ONE.’ (John 17:11.)”  Wt 81/5/1 pg 12-16

The true “union of saints”, spiritual “Israel”, would be the called anointed Body of Christ. Rom 1:7; Eph 4:11,12; 1 Cor 12:12-14 The “church” in scripture is this Body.  Matt 16:18; Col 1:18; Heb 12:23; Rev 1:20  https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rom+1%3A7%3B+Eph+4%3A11%2C12%3B+1+Cor+12%3A12-14%3B+Matt+16%3A18%3B+Col+1%3A18%3B+Heb+12%3A23%3B+Rev+1%3A20++&version=NKJV

What has happened over the years during the growth of what is now the Watchtower organization?  What position do the “saints” of today now take?  Russel’s short term view of  organization changed to include not only “Israel”, but the majority of who are not anointed.   No longer do Russel’s words matter concerning the union of Christ’s Body. In fact, in order to preserve the “unity” of “Jehovah’s organization”, the saints “do not try to find other anointed ones so that they can talk about being anointed or meet in groups to study the Bible.”  (wt 16/1 pp 20-26) 

Wouldn’t you say that your organization now “interferes” with the union of saints, subjecting the members of the Body of Christ to be severed from each other? 1 Cor 12:20-26,11  Wouldn’t you agree that the spiritual and personal freedom has been removed from those who are anointed? 1 Cor 7:23; Rom 6:16; Gal 1:10; Rev 13:7,10; Joel 1:6,7; 9:5,10   The organization employs psychological manipulation, backed by evil intentions.  2 Cor 11:20; Col 2:8; Rev 13:9,10; 12:17,15; 20:7,8; 17:14   https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Cor+12%3A20-26%2C11%3B++1+Cor+7%3A23%3B+Rom+6%3A16%3B+Gal+1%3A10%3B+Rev+13%3A7%2C10%3B+Joel+1%3A6%2C7%3B+9%3A5%2C10%3B+2+Cor+11%3A20%3B+Col+2%3A8%3B+Rev+13%3A9%2C10%3B+12%3A17%2C15%3B+20%3A7%2C8%3B+17%3A14++&version=NKJV    

This is your history.  I hope you will make the effort to sort through, and unravel Watchtower’s contradictions. 

Compare WT’s quote about the mark of the Beast with this quote:

 “Have you dedicated your life to Jehovah and symbolized your dedication by water baptism? If so, that is wonderful! Recall that on your baptism day, before eyewitnesses, you were asked whether you had dedicated yourself to Jehovah and understood that “your dedication and baptism identify you (mark you) as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses in association with God’s spirit-directed organization.” Your affirmative answers served as a public declaration of your unreserved dedication and showed that you were qualified for baptism as an ordained minister of Jehovah. You must have made Jehovah very happy!  Wt 17/4

“Spirit-directed”:  Do you know that the Wild Beast of Rev. 13:1 receives “spirit” from the Beast “with two horns”– Rev 13:11.  This Beast from the earth is a composite false prophet that directs the Wild Beast/organization to spiritually “kill”, or cut off,  all who reject its MARK.    Why two horns? “Two witnesses” are the basis for truth. Matt 18:16 Horns represent kings and these “two” kings appear to belong to Christ, speaking the truth in Christ.  Rev 1:4,5; (Rev 17:12) https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev+13%3A11%3B+Matt+18%3A16%3B+Rev+1%3A4%2C5%3B+%3B+17%3A12&version=NKJV

However, the “Beast from the Earth” does not stand for Christ’s prophetic “truth”, because he speaks in the tongue of his father, Satan. Rev 13:11; 1 Tim 4:1; Dan 11:27; Rev 16:13,14  The Beast/false prophet has succumbed to Satan’s offers – power, dominance over the “saints” and the “nations”, while accumulating riches of the world. Luke 4:6; Rev 10:11; 17:15; 13:7 It is a dream not that far off from what “Nimrod the evil” had in mind, the architect and builder of Babylon.  Gen 10:9,10; Zech 5:5-11  It was in this place, “Shinar”, where the people said, “Come, let us build ourselves a city, and a tower whose top is in the heavens; let us make a name for ourselves, lest we be scattered abroad over the face of the whole earth.” Gen 11:4  Or, like the Freemasons and their hierarchy of “brotherly love”, who coincidentally ascribe to Nimrod as the founder of Masonry.  Job 20:4-9   https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev+13%3A11%3B+1+Tim+4%3A1%3B+Dan+11%3A27%3B+Rev+16%3A13%2C14%3B++Luke+4%3A6%3B+Rev+10%3A11%3B+17%3A15%3B+13%3A7%3B+Gen+10%3A9%2C10%3B+Zech+5%3A5-11%3B+Gen+11%3A4%3B+Job+20%3A4-9++&version=NKJV

This Beast/false prophet and its successive rule, is comprised of Harlot daughters of “Babylon the Great” – the covenant (promise, agreement) of death.  Matt 4:8,9; Isa 28:15,18;Ezek 16:44; Rev 17:3-6  Not all “virgins” of Christ remain under the “New Covenant” promise of life.  Gal 4:26; Matt 25:1-13; 2 Cor 11:2-4; 1 Cor 10:12; 2 Pet 3:17; Rev 8:10; Rev 18:3  https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matt+4%3A8%2C9%3B+Isa+28%3A15%2C18%3BEzek+16%3A44%3B+Rev+17%3A3-6+%3B+Gal+4%3A26%3B+Matt+25%3A1-13%3B+2+Cor+11%3A2-4%3B+1+Cor+10%3A12%3B+2+Pet+3%3A17%3B+Rev+8%3A10%3B+Rev+18%3A3++&version=NKJV

It (false prophet) deceives those who live on the earth because of the signs that it is permitted to perform in the presence of the beast (remember, it is an organization), telling those who live on the earth to make an image of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lived. ¹⁵ It was permitted to give breath to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast could both speak and cause whoever would not worship the image of the beast to be killed.”  Rev 13:14,15

It is a “spirit-directed” image, projecting the impression that it is blessed by Holy Spirit ,and under Christ’s lead. 

WT’s emphasis on “organization” has led JWs away from the true Temple and ultimately, Christ himself.  They preach a “different Jesus”, signifying the nature behind the symbolic battle of Armageddon – distinguishing the counterfeit from the genuine, the lie from the truth. Joel 3:14  Christ and his victorious ones who have stood up to Satan’s Beasts, are symbolically “killed”, but who come “alive” through their obedience and testimony of Christ.  Rev 12:17; 11:3,7,11; 12:10,11; 3:12  https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Joel+3%3A14%3B+Rev+12%3A17%3B+11%3A3%2C7%2C11%3B+12%3A10%2C11%3B+3%3A12+&version=NKJV

IF the Watchtower sided fully with our High Priest, Christ, it would uphold Christ’s priesthood and not a “Gentile” elder body.  But, that rich identity is long buried away in Watchtower literature.  If recognition of the Temple briefly surfaces, the elder rule will be overly highlighted to continually blind JWs by its counterfeit light.  Dan 9:27  https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Dan+9%3A27&version=NKJV

Satan’s kettle of lies is like a simmering stew, where new ingredients are slowly added until he feels he’s met his goal. And he has. Rev 16:13,14 The Temple “stones” have been “trampled” by “Gentiles”. Dan 12:7;8:11,12; 2 Thess 2:3,4   Instead of anointed priests offering their “daily sacrifice” of praise under the direction of Holy Spirit, they have given in to the oppressive influence of another Master, the GB and its partners.  Matt 24:48-51  JWs accept elder appointments made by men very willingly; yet, these elders are the exact “Gentiles” who effectively tread on the Temple of God.  Elders, please, I hope you seriously analyze the power you have falsely been given, to rule over God’s appointed priests! You, as a collective group ARE the “disgusting thing” standing in the holy place! Matt 24:15  I do hope you open your eyes!  Num 16:3-7,10,11,18,20,21,35,40; Jer 7:30;6:15   https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev+16%3A13%2C14%3B+Dan+12%3A7%3B8%3A11%2C12%3B+2+Thess+2%3A3%2C4%3B+Matt+24%3A48-51%2C15%3B++Num+16%3A3-7%2C10%2C11%2C18%2C20%2C21%2C35%2C40%3B+Jer+7%3A30%3B6%3A15++&version=NKJV

Again, the WT organization, called “earthly Zion” is not the Body of Christ.  The Body is comprised of “living stones”; a spiritual house built through the sealing of all faithful anointed ones over time, with the apostles and prophets as its foundation. It is the true Zion, built on the true cornerstone. Eph 2:20-22  This Body, as the Bride of Christ, has a vital purpose, to teach and support God’s children in the Kingdom. Their existence and their trials in combatting Satan’s demand to test each one as “wheat” using his end time “Beasts”, ultimately brings them to the goal of eternal life in God’s Kingdom only if they succeed in personally casting down Satan and his deceptions. Luke 22:31 They are then ready to provide all the goodness that God and Jesus have in store for future children. Once in the Kingdom they will serve not only the Father and Jesus but the entire family of God’s children.  Mal 3:1-4; 2:7; 1 Pet 2:5,9; Rev 5:9,10; Ps 1:1-3; Rev 3:12;21:2; 22:2,17    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+22%3A31%3B+Mal+2%3A7%3B+1+Pet+2%3A5%2C9%3B+Rev+5%3A9%2C10%3B+Ps+1%3A1-3%3B+Rev+3%3A12%3B21%3A2%3B+22%3A2%2C17+&version=NKJV

Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures: ‘The stone which the builders rejected Has become the chief cornerstone. This was the Lord’s doing, And it is marvelous in our eyes’?  Matt 21:42

He is not the cornerstone of a corporation – the very man who said who spoke the words in Matt 6:19,20; 16:26  https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matt+6%3A19%2C20%3B+16%3A26&version=NKJV

WHO, then, is the cornerstone of the Watchtower, the awesome earthly corporation that is “marvelous” in the eyes of JWs?  Presently, it is the GB members who have assumed the role of Master; when Christ’s own priesthood is told to remain apart from each other, be “humble” and clothe themselves with anonymity.  If they were to gather and study together, it would propose a threat to the Wicked Slave!  Those of the woman covenant who desire to join their Master, Christ and be “in union” with the Body leave the WT, speaking truth, and are disfellowshipped for doing so. Rev 11:1-3,7; 12:6

I am at a loss to explain what affliction is experienced behind that last sentence.  It isn't easy, to say the least, since Satan is unrelenting in giving up one of “the remaining ones of the woman’s seed.” However, by leaving the oppression and lies behind, a door is opened that no one can shut.  Rev 3:8; Jer 50:33,34; 29:10-14  Sata has one last chance to deceive the remnant “kings” who are to be found refined, cleansed and blameless before the Kingdom arrives. Rev 3:18  Do you really think Satan’s act of deception would be so obvious as the UN, which the Watchtower itself utilizes when needed?  https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev+3%3A8%3B+Jer+50%3A33%2C34%3B+29%3A10-14++&version=NKJV

 As the WT said, the Beast of Rev 13:1 is Satan’s “masterpiece”, his greatest captivating delusion,  in the form of an organization.  2 Thess 2:9-12

Did you know that the Watchtower admits that “organization” is a relatively new term spearheaded in the 1920’s?  They say it isn’t a word found in the Bible.

 “The word “organization” does not appear in the Bible, and back in the 1920’s, ‘God’s organization’ was a new expression.” Wt 98/9/1

“In the early 1920’s, during morning worship, a member of the Society’s editorial staff used the expression ‘God’s organization.’ This so stimulated their thinking that by 1925 the brothers had come to see that there are two distinct and opposing organizations, Jehovah’s and Satan’s. —w85 3/15 p. 10.

This is quite revealing, when considering Russell’s words stating no other organization except the unity of the saints is recognized by the Father and Christ. John 2:19-21; 1 Cor 3:11; Eph 2:20; 1 Cor 12:28  https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+2%3A19-21%3B+1+Cor+3%3A11%3B+Eph+2%3A20%3B+1+Cor+12%3A28&version=NKJV

·       Satan’s visible “mountainlike organization” has risen successfully, making remarkable process with its earthly investments around the world.  Although lately, this may be coming to a halt as it faces the reality of mishandling child abuse.    It requires its “worshippers” to bear its mark in obedience, and service.  Rom 1:25; Rev 13:4, 16  https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rom+1%3A25%3B+Rev+13%3A4%2C+16&version=NKJV

·       The true “organization” built on Christ by the Father is reaching completion, with each faithful living stone, cleansed of idolatry to a counterfeit Zion and its lies, bearing the mark of the true God. It is a mountain that is not visible in the earthly sense, but is reflected in the hearts of the chosen faithful anointed, who speak “truth”. Rev 3:17-20; 16:15; Matt 24:15,16; Zech 4:7-10; Rev 3:12  https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev+3%3A17-20%3B+16%3A15%3B+Matt+24%3A15%2C16%3B+Zech+4%3A7-10%3B+Rev+3%3A12&version=NKJV

Only one will exist in the Kingdom of God.   Let me put it this way:

Soon the Devil and his whole demonic organization will be abyssed because of not giving exclusive devotion to the Sovereign Ruler of the universe, Jehovah. w56 1/1 pp. 15-2

With a correction:  Satan, his demons, the Beast he has built, and its Harlot/false prophet, will be thrown into the Lake of fire.  Rev 19:19,20; 20:7-10  https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev+19%3A19%2C20%3B+20%3A7-10&version=NKJV

It is imperative that all JWs know how anointed ones and companions who love Christ and the Father leave the WT, and are thrown out of the “synagogue”; because indeed, it fulfills prophesy. John 16:2 It is prophesy that affects every JW who resides within the organizatoin, if they choose to remain inside.

In Rev 18:4-8, who are “my people”? The scriptures tell us: Isa 43:10; 44:8; 1 Pet 2:4-10  https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+16%3A2%3B+Isa+43%3A10%3B+44%3A8%3B+1+Pet+2%3A4-10++&version=NKJV

“One of your people, claiming to be a prophet or to have prophetic dreams, may predict a miraculous sign or an amazing thing. (“this so stimulated their thinking”)  ² What he predicts may even take place. But don’t listen to that prophet or dreamer if he says, “Let’s worship and serve other gods.” (Those gods may be gods you’ve never heard of.) (“a new expression”)

³ The Lord your God is testing you to find out if you really love Him with all your heart and with all your soul. ⁴ Worship the Lord your God, fear him, obey His commands, listen to what He says, serve Him, and be loyal to Him. ⁵ That prophet or dreamer must be put to death because he preached rebellion (2 Thess 2:3,4) against the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt and freed you from slavery. He was trying to lead you away from following the directions the Lord your God gave you. You must get rid of this evil.” Deut 13:1-5

“The man of sin will come with the power of Satan. He will use every kind of power, including miraculous and wonderful signs. But they will be lies. ¹⁰ He will use everything that God disapproves of to deceive those who are dying, those who refused to love the truth that would save them. ¹¹ That’s why God will send them a powerful delusion so that they will believe a lie. ¹² Then everyone who did not believe the truth, but was delighted with what God disapproves of, will be condemned.” 2 Thess 2:9-12

Today, the Beast from the Earth/false prophet has directed the Wild Beast/Man of Lawlessness   to replace the “true” gods with “other gods”, who are the image of a counterfeit Zion.   Ps 82:6; John 10:35; Rom 8:14; 1 Cor 8:5; 2 Cor 3:18;Isa 14:13,14; Dan 11:36; 2 Thess 2:3,4; Rev 13:6,7      https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=.+++Ps+82%3A6%3B+John+10%3A35%3B+Rom+8%3A14%3B+1+Cor+8%3A5%3B+2+Cor+3%3A18%3BIsa+14%3A13%2C14%3B+Dan+11%3A36%3B+2+Thess+2%3A3%2C4%3B+Rev+13%3A6%2C7++++++&version=NKJV

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[TrueTomHarley]

Hey @admin! Like what you see?

It sure did scare me when you whirled about with ‘If you kids don’t stop crying back there, I’m going to stop this car and give you something to cry about!’

No lasting effect, though.

You may not have seen how I expanded upon that last post. I had tons of fun with it. And I am not done yet. Not to worry. It all makes you look good, and even the Librarian will survive:

http://www.tomsheepandgoats.com/2018/10/high-praise-for-chuckles.html

 

[Space Merchant]

On 10/12/2018 at 1:03 PM, Anna said:

Really?

Yes, and they have people believing this only for those who are well informed with what trust funds are will consider such claims as absurd.

[Space Merchant]

@James Thomas Rook Jr. Then you have Christians faiths of today and those that have ceased who also agreed to that specific year due to the studies and the like. So it wouldn't be something false, so to speak, if it can be understood by someone.

[Space Merchant]

@BillyTheKid46 As we can see when someone cannot handle truth, they grind their teeth, just like the lukewarm Christian who goes by the name Bob the Builder.

@JOHN BUTLER So much for Spiritual Wisdom, therefore, you own words, hence you lack and not me, as quoted here:

On 10/11/2018 at 2:08 PM, JOHN BUTLER said:

Knowledge you have indeed, but you lack Spiritual Wisdom SM. 

Can be used against you, in a sense, you shot yourself in the foot by your own hand. So let me enlighten you so maybe this time you can actually take time and read the Bible for once because if you cannot answer this, it cannot be believed that you not just read the Bible, but study it, of which can be seen here.

Now the question posed seems complex, granted it was asked by someone who use to believe in God and attended an African-American only Church, of which believed in the Trinity, but later on became an Atheist, hence it is one of these questions that such a person brought up of which I took note of at the time. It looks complex, but it is not, it seems difficult, but it is easy, that is, this question.

How can you have free will if it is punishment for disobedience?

The answer: God gave us free will with the intention that we would use our free will to glorify Him in a variety of ways, one commandment being we are to love him with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength – for this hangs off the greatest commandment of all, which includes principles from the Ten Commandments (Deut. 6:4, 5; 10:12 Matthew 22:36-40, Jos. 22:5; Luke 10:27 and Mark 12:28-34).

The people weren't forced to follow laws or commandments, they followed it because they know God's Will and follow it seriously, out of free will, even saying to God they will do all that he will say compared to their neighbors who don't even know these laws.

Since the laws were introduced, there is also the opposite of not following the laws, one can be cursed or punished for disobedience. The law had a helpful effect of keeping an imperfect group of people partially upright and focused on God and it keeps the people in order so they do not fall to sin, even the use of offerings to atone for one's wrong doing early on.

While the punishment looks extremely harsh, in actual fact if you look at it from the other way around, it was to help keep a people morally upright enough for Jesus to be born, later sacrificing himself for the sins of the entire world, committed by mankind.

Because the real nature of God Yahweh, who is my Father, your Father and Jesus’ Father, such applies to the Son, Jesus. You have free will to do what you want. But, as pointed out, there are consequences, being wide open to those that oppose God, reaping what you sew (adultery, idol worship, immorality subjected to disease, causing strife to friends and family or any sort of trouble). One also has the free will to repent for their sins and change from their ways because forgiveness is a possibility; this was the case with several examples in the Scriptures found in the Bible.

Case and point.

You are absolute welcome. Now go read, study and research the Scriptures because you yourself is lacking, greatly, if I may add, a former JW, such as yourself, I advise you do more research because the lack in spirituality shows like empty plastic bottle in the street. If  child can answer such, you can also, so studying is key, Mr. Butler.

That being said, since you reside in the UK, I assume, best you stay away from Hyde Park if this question gives you this much trouble, for those like you get burned and rinsed with facts on the daily there.

[JOHN BUTLER]

S M  you are not a J.W.  so they would say you lack spiritual wisdom. 

As for me, I'm still laughing at you.  I'm not on here to answer your questions as you are not a JW and haven't been one,, so we have no level start point. But you will not understand that because you are full of your own importance. 

My reply to your question was  We have free will to serve God or not. But either way there will be a reaction to our actions. 

Part of your latest reply was :- 

 You have free will to do what you want. But, as pointed out, there are consequences, being wide open to those that oppose God,

 Don't you see a similarity there, but you told me i was wrong ? 

[TrueTomHarley]

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

S M  you are not a J.W.  so they would say you...We have free will to serve God or....You have free will to do what....Don't you see a similarity there, but you told me i was wrong ? 

We don’t do Christmas around here. What! Did you forget everything?

[Witness]

On 10/6/2018 at 5:07 PM, Space Merchant said:

or as @Witness himself briefly mentioned which is considered interfaith is those who believe that humans and angels are one in the same, or hybrids of some sort.

I am even more totally convinced that you keep a tally of every item said by every individual here, which grates against your beliefs.  I will only comment on one thing that you have tallied up against me.

Do you remember which angel/messengers I was talking about?  They are the sealed anointed ones - the 12 apostles, and all anointed since, whose names are written in the book of life.  Luke 10:20

You wouldn’t call Jesus a hybrid, would you?

But he said to them, “Do not be alarmed. You seek Jesus of Nazareth, who was crucified. He is risen! He is not here. See the place where they laid Him. ⁷ But go, tell His disciples—and Peter—that He is going before you into Galilee; there you will see Him, as He said to you.”  Mark 16:6,7

“Now when He rose early on the first day of the week, He appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom He had cast seven demons”  Mark 16:9

After that, He appeared in another form to two of them as they walked and went into the country. ¹³ And they went and told it to the rest, but they did not believe them either.  Mark 16:12,13

 ^“When He had said this, He showed them His hands and His feet. ⁴But while they still did not believe for joy, and marveled, He said to them, “Have you any food here?” ⁴² So they gave Him a piece of a broiled fish and some honeycomb. ⁴³ And He took it and ate in their presence.”  Luke 24:40-43

“But when the morning had now come, Jesus stood on the shore; yet the disciples did not know that it was Jesus. ⁵ Then Jesus said to them, “Children, have you any food?”  John 21:4,5

Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. ¹⁰ And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, ¹¹ who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.”  Acts 1:9-11

If you say no, then why would you mockingly call the new creation, the faithful and sealed sons of God, who are adjoined to him, hybrids,  because they will have the ability to appear as both human and spirit?   2 Cor 5:17; Rom 8:14; 6:4;  John 1:51

As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly.   And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.”  1 Cor 15:48,49

It is such a grave lie that Watchtower has fostered by not allowing JWs to perceive that Jesus and the "144,000" will walk with all of God's children on the earth,  teaching, administering and guiding mankind in the Kingdom.  Rev 21:2; Heb 1:6

 

 

 

 

[Space Merchant]

2 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

S M  you are not a J.W.  so they would say you lack spiritual wisdom. 

But I am a Biblical Unitarian Christian and you said this about me. You are a former Jehovah's Witnesses (clearly no longer of part of/or is part of a denomination) and yet when you are put to task your own claim falls on you and you alone, Mr. Butler.

2 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

As for me, I'm still laughing at you.  I'm not on here to answer your questions as you are not a JW and haven't been one,, so we have no level start point. But you will not understand that because you are full of your own importance. 

You seem to be more flustered than having laughter, Butler. You say you are not here when put to task but you attempted anyways, thus the response I made towards you. Plus that question was among several questions asked by those who use to believe in God, but on the fence of wanting to believe again or not, no Jehovah's Witness will ask you that type of question, but an Atheist or probably a Muslim or Agnostic will ask you this.

I do not consider myself important, just someone who is very adhering to biblical knowledge and truth, nothing more. If you cannot handle the truth, best not to say anything at all, for again, I asked a question, you attempt to answer, you should always expect the response.

2 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

My reply to your question was  We have free will to serve God or not. But either way there will be a reaction to our actions. 

Part of your latest reply was :- 

 You have free will to do what you want. But, as pointed out, there are consequences, being wide open to those that oppose God,

 Don't you see a similarity there, but you told me i was wrong ? 

I stated it is incorrect because no one would take that vague answer from you, this is why when you read the Bible and explain things, the answer has to be detailed and examples must be given. When I first been asked this exact same question I made the same mistake you made, then I began the research and put it into application. For if you are to prove or say Jesus is God's Son, you have to explain it, if you are to prove Prophet Isaiah was critical with the leaders of Judah you have to explain it in detail, especially what can be seen in Isaiah 28, and so forth.

The same thing applies to this question, of which I call an Atheist question due to it's source of origin.

I pointed you out as wrong because you didn't even spare much of an effort to explain the answer, but gave a vague remark, the very reason I stated no one is going to take that from you, not even me.

So I advise you read up and research and avoid Hyde Park - people there will ask this type of question and several others, from minor to greater, even complex, i.e. dietary laws/changes, etc.

Always explain yourself when answering a question, vagueness will not get you far, a lesson learned from CSE.