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Why John Butler Left Jehovah's Witnesses


Anna

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10 hours ago, admin said:

And IF by chance you still do subscribe to this religious mentality .... please realize that the rest of the world doesn't care about how you label others.

They have MOVED ON.....

Try to keep up people.

This technology alone is proving far superior to any fear based religion. Both pro and anti religious groups should try to avoid labels and stick to facts.

- End of rant.

In my opinion, should this be a correct understanding that the majority in this world that is atheist have no compulsion for religion, then you as the administrator also need to understand the need to allow those in favor or opposition to freely state their opinion without this administration picking sides.

Your statement is quite clear. Then honor your own words by allowing comments such as Bulter to be presented, and if there is an opposing view, allow that presentation to be placed. A neutral observer is what is claimed here.

As a business, that allows a discussion needs to be free to all, not just a selected few. Another observation would be, the use of certain material that goes beyond what the law allows for a debate. A discussion board can have a certain responsibility to eliminate such information from being abused. as seen with commenter witness.

This website seems to be a news outlet. An interesting site that I receive world news. Therefore, precautions would be recommended.

Now, the post “Why John Butler Left Jehovah's Witnesses” Trademark

Spiritual “Israel” are the anointed ones.  They are assembled IN THE WATCHTOWER.  Rom 2:28,29; Heb 8:10; Rev 7:4

The disfellowshipping act shows that Jehovah has a clean people who adhere to Scriptural guidelines in order to maintain that holiness  Wt 15/4/15

Does it really matter why this individual left? There are no restrictions made for any individual to stay. That organization is not Scientology that obligates their members to stay. The Bible states free will and choice.

Whatever the motives are for an individual to leave, if it has nothing to do with breaking God’s scripted laws, then to each its own. If an individual wishes to criticize any religion, they have free reign. But, those individuals need to understand, an opposing point of view can be freely made as well. That’s how democracy works in the United States.

I hope this observation doesn’t disqualify me from making future comments.

I will say, it’s refreshing to hear from the owner to stabilize an environment that can become continuous very quickly, Thank you.

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10 hours ago, admin said:

I would just like to state for the record that as the owner of this website... I do not like pejorative labels.

LABEL and KILL seems to be the way most groups continue to operate nowadays.

I realize that all you different religions are free to exercise what you believe in.....

however I would like to push MY OWN POINT of thought that we ALL should try to stop using labels on people.

I keep seeing different religions on here use the pejorative label "APOSTATE"...... 

Why does anyone in 2018 still subscribe to this antiquated way of thinking?

 

And IF by chance you still do subscribe to this religious mentality .... please realize that the rest of the world doesn't care about how you label others.

They have MOVED ON.....

Try to keep up people.

This technology alone is proving far superior to any fear based religion. Both pro and anti religious groups should try to avoid labels and stick to facts.

- End of rant.

p.s. - I still use the label SPAMMERS in a pejorative sense. Nobody is perfect. 

Words you mentioned as "pejorative" and "labels" are just words. With words we differentiate things and we give them meaning. In reality, there are no bad words or pejorative, insulting words. There are people, groups of people who give their own new meaning when they apply it to other people or groups of people.

Some word is not obscene or insulting because it consists of certain letters. There is a street words for a sex organ, and there is a medical word for the same thing. None of them is rude. Because they actually mark the same thing.

An example is the word "apostate". It is used in certain circles (such as WTJWorg) to mark people who are members of the JW community but have different religious ideas. And some of these "apostates" remain within the JW community and some leave.
This forum meets people of different religious thoughts, beliefs, belongings. This group on this forum could be called the "interfaith group". :)))

The intention here is not to unite all of these people into a multi-faith community, but to represent, defend, challenge religious ideas. 

Many of the used words are not the fabrication of the one who writes them, but are in use for a long time. Those involved in the discussion know what they are talking about.

Of course, the words that was apply in text can hurt the feelings of the other. But sometimes this can not be avoided no matter how much an author of the text seeks to be objective .... or unwilling to be.

The fact we living in 21 century does not exclude, not canceled, does not delete important fact that is reason for division - there are always Us and Them. Unfortunately, Nobody can Change This "Primitivism". (even this word "primitivism" has at least two different labels, connotations  :))))

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2 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Words you mentioned as "pejorative" and "labels" are just words. With words we differentiate things and we give them meaning. In reality, there are no bad words or pejorative, insulting words. There are people, groups of people who give their own new meaning when they apply it to other people or groups of people.

Some word is not obscene or insulting because it consists of certain letters. There is a street words for a sex organ, and there is a medical word for the same thing. None of them is rude. Because they actually mark the same thing.

An example is the word "apostate". It is used in certain circles (such as WTJWorg) to mark people who are members of the JW community but have different religious ideas. And some of these "apostates" remain within the JW community and some leave.
This forum meets people of different religious thoughts, beliefs, belongings. This group on this forum could be called the "interfaith group". :)))

The intention here is not to unite all of these people into a multi-faith community, but to represent, defend, challenge religious ideas. 

Many of the used words are not the fabrication of the one who writes them, but are in use for a long time. Those involved in the discussion know what they are talking about.

Of course, the words that was apply in text can hurt the feelings of the other. But sometimes this can not be avoided no matter how much an author of the text seeks to be objective .... or unwilling to be.

The fact we living in 21 century does not exclude, not canceled, does not delete important fact that is reason for division - there are always Us and Them. Unfortunately, Nobody can Change This "Primitivism". (even this word "primitivism" has at least two different labels, connotations  :))))

Very well written, Fabulous comment. Thank you. 

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4 hours ago, Paul Dedee said:

In my opinion, should this be a correct understanding that the majority in this world that is atheist have no compulsion for religion, then you as the administrator also need to understand the need to allow those in favor or opposition to freely state their opinion without this administration picking sides.

Your statement is quite clear. Then honor your own words by allowing comments such as Bulter to be presented, and if there is an opposing view, allow that presentation to be placed. A neutral observer is what is claimed here.

As a business, that allows a discussion needs to be free to all, not just a selected few. Another observation would be, the use of certain material that goes beyond what the law allows for a debate. A discussion board can have a certain responsibility to eliminate such information from being abused. as seen with commenter witness.

This website seems to be a news outlet. An interesting site that I receive world news. Therefore, precautions would be recommended.

Now, the post “Why John Butler Left Jehovah's Witnesses” Trademark

Spiritual “Israel” are the anointed ones.  They are assembled IN THE WATCHTOWER.  Rom 2:28,29; Heb 8:10; Rev 7:4

The disfellowshipping act shows that Jehovah has a clean people who adhere to Scriptural guidelines in order to maintain that holiness  Wt 15/4/15

Does it really matter why this individual left? There are no restrictions made for any individual to stay. That organization is not Scientology that obligates their members to stay. The Bible states free will and choice.

Whatever the motives are for an individual to leave, if it has nothing to do with breaking God’s scripted laws, then to each its own. If an individual wishes to criticize any religion, they have free reign. But, those individuals need to understand, an opposing point of view can be freely made as well. That’s how democracy works in the United States.

I hope this observation doesn’t disqualify me from making future comments.

I will say, it’s refreshing to hear from the owner to stabilize an environment that can become continuous very quickly, Thank you.

Paul, I do not know which side of the 'table' you are coming from but I must pick up on one point.

You wrote Spiritual “Israel” are the anointed ones.  They are assembled IN THE WATCHTOWER.  Rom 2:28,29; Heb 8:10; Rev 7:4

The scriptures you have noted here do not, i repeat, do not back up your comment.

Yes Spiritual Israel are the anointed ones, I agree. BUT you have no proof that 'They are assembled in the Watchtower' I am presuming you mean the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. Run by the GB of the JW Org. 

The GB have proved themselves to be the wicked slave class not the faithful one. 

Does it really matter why this individual left? YES. I need people to know that I have left the JW Org because of the Child Abuse / Pedophilia problem earthwide. And i need people to know that I still love God and Jesus Christ. And I am still looking for a way to serve God properly. 

If people realise that I am not critical for the sake of being critical then they might just take me seriously and my comments then could help others. 

I have hope for the JW Org, but my hope would involve the removal of the GB and it seems that could only be arranged 'from above'. God will do whatever He pleases, for whatever reason He sees fit. He will work through His son Jesus Christ. 

If i am to be condemned at Armageddon then so be it, but until that time arrives i will continue to search for a true way to serve God properly. 

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My reason is that certain men have slipped in among you who were long ago appointed to this judgment by the Scriptures; they are ungodly men who turn the undeserved kindness of our God into an excuse for brazen conduct and who prove false to...”

Sounds like the GB of JW Org Tom. They have definitely proven false in their actions and words. 

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Apostates and loyal ones unite! At last we have found common cause! Let us band together and beat up @admin, who presumes to break up our riotous party! If we want to ruin his website, what's that to him? I will even be gracious and concede that you guys won a round. You correctly predicted that he would 'lose it' on a weekend. I could have sworn it would have been on a weekday. 

Probably admin knows that not one Witness he sees here on these controversial threads is a typical Witness. They are all 'rouge' to one degree of another, myself included. They all have their own individual reasons for being here, as do I. None of them are heeding the Witness organizations' preference not to engage in disputes with determined opposers.

Witnesses are encouraged by their organization not to dispute. 'Put your version of truth out there, and if they reject it, they reject it.' Whatever one may think about Witnesses, one must concede that they endeavor to present their message with dignity, whether it be door-to-door, their website, or the recent innovations of 'cart witnessing.' The dignity all shreds when they come here and similar places (there are actually very few where both sides mix together - you can take a bow for hosting I think the most prominent one) which is why the organization prefers they stay away.

There is a WT study today that I am sure Jack Ryan will start a thread on, if he hasn't already, about internet sources reporting on Witnesses and how it is best not to get carried away by what they may say, since they generally present 'distorted facts,' the germ of which is not untrue, necessarily but 'distorted.' It will be Jack's turn to 'lose it' over this. is the Watchtower wrong not to comment specifically on this or that news report? Many charge that. But since polls consistently show that trust in the media is abysmal and that people take for granted that they are often inaccurate, they tend to say 'why go there?'

They encourage their people to 'persuade,' but not 'debate. They encourage them to follow the example of Jesus, who routinely did things that would infuriate any devotee of debate. He continually answered questions with counter-questions. He raised many a straw man argument. ('gaining context', it used to be called) He spun complex parables that he rarely explained. Let the heart figure it out.

What! Is it cheap entertainment we are speaking of? Jesus said religious truth would be 'the pearl of great price' that you must 'exert yourself vigorously' to lay hold of. He didn't say it was a fine thing to sit on your butt and wait for the 'winner' of a debate to toss it to you. Debate invariably focuses attention, not on the merits of any given idea, but on the skill of the debater. In debate school, one is taught to argue both sides of a given argument. That fact ought to suffice to assess 'debate' as a way to arrive at truth. 

You would never know it from here, but the best way to uncover how most Witnesses feel about their governing arrangement is to attend a Regional Convention. The line that invariably brings down the house with applause is: 'Would you like to send your greetings to the brothers in Bethel?'

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3 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Paul, I do not know which side of the 'table' you are coming from but I must pick up on one point.

You wrote Spiritual “Israel” are the anointed ones.  They are assembled IN THE WATCHTOWER.  Rom 2:28,29; Heb 8:10; Rev 7:4

The scriptures you have noted here do not, i repeat, do not back up your comment.

John,

First of all, I am not here to defend either side. I believe each proactive religion stands for something positive. A religion that adheres to the first century standard of worship which Jesus taught also had a standard for excellence. Members within those groups also were subject to critical review by their Elders and High Priest.

I made no such point as you describe the rebuttal other than making certain observations by the posting of a certain commentator by the name of, witness. My observation was made in lieu of the material being used to make a point. A right I believe each owner should prevent from being excessive if they have not been granted certain rights to publish other people’s material. That’s all.

I can appreciate that fact that many people feel their life story should be told and listened to. I believe the FORD story was credible, as I’m sure your is. No one should be in a position to lie and have others believe is such a lie. understandably, I don't believe anyone here can qualify as an expert witness to what happened to you. This is why Ford’s testimony failed to achieve the smell test. Not because she was not credible, but because the standard of law was used. If she could not convince a panel of Senators that had much more information than what the public was seeing, then a grand jury would expect that type of information to decide whether or not to indict.

Now, her story has become a rallying cry by many groups, just as it has become a rallying cry for White Cops that shoot Black kids while running away. Pedophilia is also at the forefront of many nations.

So, you don’t have to repeat your story to gain attention for your cause. Just know that many religions are experiencing this problem and that experience is not limited to one religion. This is where the difference is. When a person or a certain group of people attempt to make one certain religion out to be worse than others.

I can think of plenty of reasons not to become a Muslim. One happens to be the sharia law. Should I condemn all Muslims because of some radical Islamism? Should we then think because many Christian religions have a priest go into battle to pray for their side to win, make all Christians guilty?

This would mean, you are personal holding Christ responsible for the things people do. That has become your rallying cry. Others here happen to think the opposite. Not because they don’t find you credible but because they find your attacks offensive and at times not forthcoming. This is the kind of mentality that got Jesus killed.

Where does it end with imperfection abound in every discussion by many nations? There is no right or wrong answer since the makeup of peoples solution is being considered by a society that is imperfect itself.

Then it becomes a question of loyalty. If you want to serve God and Christ, you need faith in them to understand, what you seek can’t be found on this earth. This is where being with those that have that same value can give you that personal strength to better your life instead of always being in the dark.

Now, doesn’t scripture mention that? I would use the public domain bible KJV, but I find it, it might be difficult for some to read. Ephesians 5:8

It does no one good to harbor resentment and hate. I believe it’s time to reconstitute the art of civility if we as a society, hope to find common ground for now.

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I quite love how, even though I explain my self fully in English everyone should be able to understand, people still love to misquote me or to pretend that I've said something. 

An example here. 

This would mean, you are personal holding Christ responsible for the things people do. That has become your rallying cry.

What utter nonsense. I have love for God and His son Jesus Christ. I would not blame either for the way people act. 

However, I do question people that pretend to be receiving direct instruction from either of those, from above. Especially when they get things all wrong, and also mistreat the ones they are supposed to be helping. 

 "...they find your attacks offensive... " Well the Pharisees found Jesus offensive too. Truth very often hurts. 

The Russians must have found the Witnesses offensive, they banned them and stole all of their property I believe. 

So it is, life goes on. 

 

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4 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Apostates and loyal ones unite! At last we have found common cause! Let us band together and beat up @admin, who presumes to break up our riotous party! If we want to ruin his website, what's that to him? I will even be gracious and concede that you guys won a round. You correctly predicted that he would 'lose it' on a weekend. I could have sworn it would have been on a weekday. 

Probably admin knows that not one Witness he sees here on these controversial threads is a typical Witness. They are all 'rouge' to one degree of another, myself included. They all have their own individual reasons for being here, as do I. None of them are heeding the Witness organizations' preference not to engage in disputes with determined opposers.

Witnesses are encouraged by their organization not to dispute. 'Put your version of truth out there, and if they reject it, they reject it.' Whatever one may think about Witnesses, one must concede that they endeavor to present their message with dignity, whether it be door-to-door, their website, or the recent innovations of 'cart witnessing.' The dignity all shreds when they come here and similar places (there are actually very few where both sides mix together - you can take a bow for hosting I think the most prominent one) which is why the organization prefers they stay away.

There is a WT study today that I am sure Jack Ryan will start a thread on, if he hasn't already, about internet sources reporting on Witnesses and how it is best not to get carried away by what they may say, since they generally present 'distorted facts,' the germ of which is not untrue, necessarily but 'distorted.' It will be Jack's turn to 'lose it' over this. is the Watchtower wrong not to comment specifically on this or that news report? Many charge that. But since polls consistently show that trust in the media is abysmal and that people take for granted that they are often inaccurate, they tend to say 'why go there?'

They encourage their people to 'persuade,' but not 'debate. They encourage them to follow the example of Jesus, who routinely did things that would infuriate any devotee of debate. He continually answered questions with counter-questions. He raised many a straw man argument. ('gaining context', it used to be called) He spun complex parables that he rarely explained. Let the heart figure it out.

What! Is it cheap entertainment we are speaking of? Jesus said religious truth would be 'the pearl of great price' that you must 'exert yourself vigorously' to lay hold of. He didn't say it was a fine thing to sit on your butt and wait for the 'winner' of a debate to toss it to you. Debate invariably focuses attention, not on the merits of any given idea, but on the skill of the debater. In debate school, one is taught to argue both sides of a given argument. That fact ought to suffice to assess 'debate' as a way to arrive at truth. 

You would never know it from here, but the best way to uncover how most Witnesses feel about their governing arrangement is to attend a Regional Convention. The line that invariably brings down the house with applause is: 'Would you like to send your greetings to the brothers in Bethel?'

Probably admin knows that not one Witness he sees here on these controversial threads is a typical Witness.

What is a typical Witness ? 

You would never know it from here, but the best way to uncover how most Witnesses feel about their governing arrangement is to attend a Regional Convention. The line that invariably brings down the house with applause is: 'Would you like to send your greetings to the brothers in Bethel?'

Yes it's all puppet fashion and tradition. It is so corny. It is the expected thing, so they have to do it. 

But they are your typical Witnesses. They live in a bubble. They spend all their time together, do everything together, and never really look at the outside world. They never ask questions. They just obey orders. They believe what today's Watchtower orders them to believe. They are frightened to question the Elders and definitely much to scared to question the Governing Body.  Fear of being shunned drives them onward. It may not be seen from the outside, but it's there. 

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15 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

The line that invariably brings down the house with applause is: 'Would you like to send your greetings to the brothers in Bethel?'

 Yes it's all puppet fashion and tradition. It is so corny. It is the expected thing, so they have to do it. 

You know, you may have a point. I have looked closely at these times and I can tell that they don’t want to applaud. They REALLY REALLY DON’T want to applaud. But then they notice an elder glowering at them and sweat breaks out on their brow. In some cases, they pee their pants. In the end, even though they hate the thought, they clap and clap and clap. Sometimes their hands turn to mush and the paramedics have to haul them away for first aid.

I mean, it is possible to overplay the paranoia card, John.

They applaud because they liked the program and appreciate the work of those that put it together.

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18 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

You know, you may have a point. I have looked closely at these times and I can tell that they don’t want to applaud. They REALLY REALLY DON’T want to applaud. But then they notice an elder glowering at them and sweat breaks out on their brow. In some cases, they pee their pants. In the end, even though they hate the thought, they clap and clap and clap. Sometimes their hands turn to mush and the paramedics have to haul them away for first aid.

I mean, it is possible to overplay the paranoia card, John.

They applaud because they liked the program and appreciate the work of those that put it together.

Tom i know you are quite funny at times, but I think you seem to want to forget that 

I HAVE BEEN THERE AND DONE ALL THAT.  It's hype. They are conditioned to 'like the programme'. We were all expected to applaud. 

I know that you don't want to believe that teenagers are almost 'dragged' to assemblies, or bribed by having special clothes (that the teens want) bought for them. Hence the way some teens are dressed at assemblies, it's the only way they would agree to go there.  

That kids are ordered to answer up in Watchtower studies and made to pre-study for hours and write down long answers, which in truth they don't even understand. They just answer parrot fashion. And kids are made to do the field service, ordered by parents to do it.

Kids are even told to get baptised by their parents, and it seems to be getting younger every year. Jesus was 30 years old. 

Hence many teenagers, when they leave school, leave home asap, to get away from the orders of their parents...

Have you not noticed any of that ?   

But please do remember that I HAVE BEEN THERE AND SEEN IT ALL. It is not something I've read in a newspaper or seen on the 'web'. 

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23 hours ago, admin said:

LABEL and KILL seems to be the way most groups continue to operate nowadays.

When you cite Jehovah's Witnesses, you are citing almost the only example you could cite that disproves your point. Categorically, they will not be kill or be maneuvered by the national king into killing. How bad can they be?

 

23 hours ago, admin said:

This technology alone is proving far superior to any fear based religion. 

Is it? I'll even call you on this. The general reality is that social media is more apt to spread hate than resolution. Religion, however, at its best, will spread love in a way that your technology could not even dream of. 

And what is this idiocy of 'fear-based religion?' Methinks you are in danger of drinking too much of the Kool-Aid yourself. How often in Scripture is the expression 'Fear God' or 'Fear Jehovah?' Almost 40. I counted. It is 'fear' in the same sense children used to routinely fear their parents, out of love and respect, fear of displeasing them, with 'punishment' only a background concern. 

Increasingly the ones to be feared are the 'anti-cultists' who expand the definition of a PEJORATIVE word so as to cover people they don't like. Under the guise of 'protecting' them from ideas they don't want heard, their Russian soul-brothers have gone so far as to arrest them and steal all their property.

If you must carry on about 'this technology,' consider this paragraph from a book from (blush) a favorite author of mine as to how the Witness organization has used it:

"In recent years, the Watchtower organization even offers its own programming through a JW Broadcasting streaming channel, a refreshing and most unusual alternative to mainstream TV. Members of the Governing Body thus repeat the pattern they are known for with any new technology: They eye it with suspicion. They advise caution. They know that when the thief switches getaway cars, it is the thief you have to watch, not the dazzling features of the new car. They follow the thief for a time. Convinced at last that they still have a bead on him, they examine the car. They circle it warily, kicking the tires. At last satisfied, they jump in with both feet and put it to good uses its inventors could only have dreamed of."     Tom Irregardless and Me

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