Why John Butler Left Jehovah's Witnesses

[Space Merchant]

19 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

members of other religions have same or similar beliefs 

Incorrect. There things some have common ground on, but not similar. Example some faiths believe God has a literal wife and a couple of wives/concubines, other faiths do not, but both believe their is a God.

There are those who believe there are thousands and thousands of Gods, and others believe in 3, while others believe in 1 God, that God being the Father.

19 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

also Holy book said to pray for Secular kings and rulers who not trying

Well, it will be good  not to be "strict" to much about many things mentioned here :))  

The Bible say to pray for others also, for this hangs in the foremost commandment itself. How should one suddenly ignore this something that Jesus held near and dear to his heart as a child into manhood?

[Space Merchant]

20 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Your GB say that they are important, exalting themselves, and we know what Luke 14 v 11 says about those that exalt themselves don't we ? 

Biblehub tells you the same thing, so it is not only a GB/JW thing: https://biblehub.com/luke/14-11.htm

Mr. Butler, before you say things like this, I suggest you do the research first.

If you thing this forums is out of line, give CSE a try, and even there if you say something about religion or the Bible you will be corrected with bricks upon bricks of factual information.

https://christianity.stackexchange.com/

The biblical hermeneutics section can grill you easy for they dissect anything and everything regarding the Bible.

https://hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/

[JOHN BUTLER]

50 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

Biblehub tells you the same thing, so it is not only a GB/JW thing: https://biblehub.com/luke/14-11.htm

Mr. Butler, before you say things like this, I suggest you do the research first.

If you thing this forums is out of line, give CSE a try, and even there if you say something about religion or the Bible you will be corrected with bricks upon bricks of factual information.

https://christianity.stackexchange.com/

The biblical hermeneutics section can grill you easy for they dissect anything and everything regarding the Bible.

https://hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/

Biblehub tells me nothing as I never even look at it, and basically I have no idea what it is. 

You seem to think you are the only one that knows anything and that you are always correct. 

If a man can see things with his own eyes does he need to do research ?  

This forum is enough and I have my own thoughts and don't need you to try to correct my every thought. 

Let's make this simple for you. The Governing Body are 8 men. Mostly American, mostly white. All the Elders of all the JW congregations serve the Governing Body to the extent of worshipping them.  The Elders have proved this by acting like puppets, following orders without question. 

The JW Org say that a person cannot serve God without being part of that Org. Where does the JW Org get this information from ? It gets it from the Governing Body.  Now I would think even you disagree with the Governing Body on that issue ?

So, I would be happy if you stopped trying to 'correct' me every time I comment. Please realise we have totally different opinions on most issues. Thankyou. 

 

[Paul Dedee]

1 hour ago, Space Merchant said:

There are some Atheists who do have sympathy for religion and the Bible, some who in secret who try to learn something, for there are many Atheist, some may not claim it, who do study theology and or Religion as well as the Bible. On the other side of the spectrum, some Atheists become who they are because of being misguided or not being able to understand something properly, while others will say why can't all religion simply be united as one, but they forget the whole ramification regarding interfaith and apostasy,

 

That being said, an Admin is like a Game Master, they can do, choose, commit, take, and release, etc as they please. Admins also have their views and opinions as well as having a faith, thus it is no surprise should one takes the side of others or not - this is HIS playground, not ours

Atheism has been made to a religion. I believe your view extends through extremism as any other religion. The Watchtower holds the extremism of the first century Christian, as taught by Christ. Jesus went through what the Watchtower now goes through. I believe the message from Christ and the Apostles was to maintain faith with whatever came across as being tested.

Atheism as you state fairs the same compulsion. This in itself does not condemn one entire group because of certain misguided views by certain people. If this was normal, then those people are positioning themselves as kings among men, as they cannot do this with God. Administrators also have a certain responsibility to allow all voices to we heard.

I’m afraid this has not been the case in this forum. This is why I reject the advice of TTH and will tread lightly as not to offend the owner, as some have seen fit to offend others without repercussions. I have kept an eye for a while enough to see the reality.

In my opinion, too much emphasis is being placed in one individual that is rallying to portray a certain religion in a negative way, when it can easily be said about any other religion. The truth of the matter is inertia.

This is why, a single unproven claim carries no lasting weight, not even when the chips are stacked up high.

That said, this is an open forum for all is it not? If not, then it should be set to private so only those the owner likes will be granted and set as a target for a specific audience.

[JOHN BUTLER]

1 hour ago, Paul Dedee said:

Atheism has been made to a religion. I believe your view extends through extremism as any other religion. The Watchtower holds the extremism of the first century Christian, as taught by Christ. Jesus went through what the Watchtower now goes through. I believe the message from Christ and the Apostles was to maintain faith with whatever came across as being tested.Atheism as you state fairs the same compulsion. This in itself does not condemn one entire group because of certain misguided views by certain people. If this was normal, then those people are positioning themselves as kings among men, as they cannot do this with God. Administrators also have a certain responsibility to allow all voices to we heard.

I’m afraid this has not been the case in this forum. This is why I reject the advice of TTH and will tread lightly as not to offend the owner, as some have seen fit to offend others without repercussions. I have kept an eye for a while enough to see the reality.

In my opinion, too much emphasis is being placed in one individual that is rallying to portray a certain religion in a negative way, when it can easily be said about any other religion. The truth of the matter is inertia.

This is why, a single unproven claim carries no lasting weight, not even when the chips are stacked up high.

That said, this is an open forum for all is it not? If not, then it should be set to private so only those the owner likes will be granted and set as a target for a specific audience.

 

This forum is entitled JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES PUBLIC CLUB. Does that not mean it is about JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES ? 

I don't 'live' on here so I don't know, but have 'some voices' not been allowed to be heard ?

Admin is very kind to me I feel and have allowed me to express my feelings freely. 

And if I'm the 'one individual' you are talking about then just look at the heading of this topic. It's about me, though not of my making, but I'm not running away from it. 

Can we get something straight. Jehovah's Witnesses Organisation, governed by its Governing Body, say that they are the ONLY true Organisation that God is using to gather people together to be saved through Armageddon. The ONLY ARK like Org, the ONLY hope.

The GB therefore have to pretend that the JW Org is clean and pure. Well I'm proving that the JW Org is not clean and pure and that the GB do not have direction from God. 

What you or anyone else say about any other religion is not important here on this JW Forum.  JW's are not supposed to be compared with 'people of the world'. JW's are supposed to be as pure as they can be and serving God to the best of their ability. 

The only way JW's and the JW Org should be compared is to God's very high standards, NOT TO STANDARDS OF THE WORLD. 

You know, I will admit to not being the brightest light in the street but even i can understand what God is looking for. 

[Anna]

Oh my, so much has gone on while I've been away.

One thing that I noticed @JOHN BUTLERyou mentioned how Witness youths don't really want to go to meetings and assemblies. I agree, sometimes they would just rather do something else. But those who do it for the right reason, even though they don't really want to at the time, don't leave the minute they leave home. You can "suffer" anything if it's for the right reason. Conversely, if you do something for the wrong reason, then that usually has no staying power.

[Srecko Sostar]

2 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

22 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

members of other religions have same or similar beliefs 

Incorrect. There things some have common ground on, but not similar. Example some faiths believe God has a literal wife and a couple of wives/concubines, other faiths do not, but both believe their is a God.

There are those who believe there are thousands and thousands of Gods, and others believe in 3, while others believe in 1 God, that God being the Father.

ohh Space, why you are so reckless? And why you put my quote out of context that is given as response to other participant of this conversation? Why you have to act similar as ......"Like one who grabs a stray dog by the ears is someone who rushes into a quarrel not their own."

Do you see yourself as person who have to put in right all things that is not right according to your own sense of "strictness" and your own feeling of "righteousness"?

Relax ... it is better. You will not change the World no matter as much you want and as much you try :))) Why not to learn something from others, why not let others to "correct" your way of correcting other people :))))  

[TrueTomHarley]

2 hours ago, Paul Dedee said:

This is why I reject the advice of TTH and will tread lightly as not to offend the owner

Believe me, you have nothing to worry about. It's unbelievable what they put up with around here. Even @admin holds his nose and endures. 'Well, the nutcakes are driving traffic to my site,' he says. His occasions for rebuke are rare. I can think of only one other time, when he said: "Jeez, you guys are a piece of work!" Ha! What could I tell him? That we're not?

Tell him, Admin. Reassure the fellow. He means to stick around for a while, it appears. And he makes sense. Tell him 100 louts will go before you even think about tossing him.

[Space Merchant]

4 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Biblehub tells me nothing as I never even look at it, and basically I have no idea what it is. 

Have you bother to take 2 seconds to scroll down? You yourself stated that regarding Luke 14:11 the GB has their own idea of what it is vs. others, or should I quote you?

Your GB say that they are important, exalting themselves, and we know what Luke 14 v 11 says about those that exalt themselves don't we ? 

The WT says the following, for this is but one of several: The need to be humble was repeatedly stressed by Jesus: Become like a little child; take a lowly seat at a banquet; when praying be like the lowly tax collector, not like the self-righteous Pharisee. Note also that a command to be humble served as the springboard for Jesus’ scathing denunciation of the proud and hypocritical religious leaders of his day. In striking contrast to their proud course was the humble course of Jesus, that of honoring God at all times: “I do nothing of my own initiative.” His very coming to earth as well as his entire earthly sojourn was a shining example of humility, as the apostle Paul so clearly shows at Philippians 2:5-8. Typical of Jesus’ humility was his willingness to wash the feet of his apostles.—Matt. 18:3, 4; Luke 14:7-11; 18:9-14; Matt. 23:12; John 8:28; 13:5.

They also have more to say,

So applying the expression to these two classes, it becomes understandable in all its different settings, and makes sense whether referring to situations in Israel in Jesus’ day among the Jews, or referring to the addition of Gentiles to the church class, or to conditions in Christendom in these last days. The exalted clergy class once thought to be first are abased to last, and humble ones abased to last God exalts to first position with him.—Luke 14:11.

Let's go to Biblehub:

• (11) Whosoever exalteth himself shall be abased.--The reproduction of the teaching in words which are almost an echo of these, in 1Peter 5:5, is interesting as showing the impression which it had made on the minds of the disciples.
• For whosoever exalteth himself,.... Either in the above way, or any other, shall be abased, humbled and mortified: and he that humbleth himself; behaves in an humble and modest manner, shall be exalted; See Gill on Matthew 23:12.
• 11. whosoever, etc.—couching them in a chaste simplicity and proverbial terseness of style which makes them "apples of gold in a setting of silver." (See on [1668]Lu 18:14).
• 14:7-14 Even in the common actions of life, Christ marks what we do, not only in our religious assemblies, but at our tables. We see in many cases, that a man's pride will bring him low, and before honour is humility. Our Saviour here teaches, that works of charity are better than works of show. But our Lord did not mean that a proud and unbelieving liberality should be rewarded, but that his precept of doing good to the poor and afflicted should be observed from love to him.

So how is this different from what the GB were spouting about? You did consider Biblehub interesting, but when it is in use, somehow the interest has subsided.

4 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

You seem to think you are the only one that knows anything and that you are always correct. 

then am I wrong regarding my response, to you about Luke 14:11? Am I wrong regarding Restorationist Christology? Am I wrong because someone assume human and angels can be hybrids? Am I wrong for correcting a man who compares me to a Jew, let alone thinks a woman led a church in Corinth? Or am I wrong for correcting someone regarding nakedness in terms of the Greek Language?

Tell me Mr. Butler if I am not correct on these things, speak your resolve.

And no, I do not seem to know anything and everything, I am always learning, as I have been learning about religion, the bible and a list of other things for years now.

But it would seem if someone knows way too much, they are often found as targets because they come to correct.

4 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

This forum is enough and I have my own thoughts and don't need you to try to correct my every thought. 

But I can correct you on any biblical violation you speak, or of any Christology. When I corrected you on Peter, it was as accurate as 2+2 equaling 4.

Indeed, this forum is enough, but you have to remember where you are, for originally this space you can always get a response, even challenged, for this use to be Controversial Posts and this still applies.

4 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Let's make this simple for you. The Governing Body are 8 men. Mostly American, mostly white. All the Elders of all the JW congregations serve the Governing Body to the extent of worshipping them.  The Elders have proved this by acting like puppets, following orders without question. 

No need to be simplistic, Butler, I know who they are and their church structure.

In the early church, Christians of the church followed people of God such as Apostle Paul, Timothy, and others. One of which being Clement of Rome (90-96 A.D.). He may be the Clement mentioned in Paul's epistle to the Philippians. This epistle to the Corinthians does not carry his name, but is simply addressed from the church at Rome to the congregation at Corinth.

However, a epistle from Corinth to Rome a few decades later refers to "the letter we received from your bishop Clement, which we still read regularly. Other early writers are unanimous in attributing the epistle to Clement. The epistle is occasioned due to a group of Christians at Corinth who had banded together against their leaders and had deposed them from office. Clement writes to tell them that they have behaved wrongly, and to remind them of the centrality of Christian unity and love.

So in this sense, you have the Church and it's people, and there is one, a pastor/bishop who takes the lead among them, for that is referred to as Orderly Worship. In the case of the GB, they do not do such on their own, for they, being the Restorationist as they are, put that into application, hence you have 8 of them who is taking the lead among 8.5 million plus others.

I remember before you made the false claim that leadership of the church is of Pharisee, yet you completely ignore the fact that Paul and others led, even wrote to the Churches.

So if you want to call people puppets, I, as I told those who are Anti-Pauline, to tear anything regarding Paul from your Bible if you do not agree with him, or the Christ, you should same if that is your view.

 

No one worships religious leaders. They are in place to give advise and instruct, as did Paul, as did others. No one worshiped Paul they took instruction, as is the case if you paid attention to and read both letters to the Corinthians.

You are going to have to prove the claim that elders of a church worships religious leaders because I see no proof of this in your words, therefore, I can say you are incorrect.

See, very simple, if you understood Church Structure. Learn it: https://www.gotquestions.org/church-hierarchy.html

4 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

The JW Org say that a person cannot serve God without being part of that Org. Where does the JW Org get this information from ? It gets it from the Governing Body.  Now I would think even you disagree with the Governing Body on that issue ?

They say this because there are denominations that say things of God that is not true, and or anything of the bible. Example is what you stated about Peter's nakedness, you assume something literal and of what is found in a dictionary, but the Strong's says otherwise, Peter was girdled before he went fishing. I need not have to explain the ambassadors thing again also because such things is taken out of context, of which have shown to do before - as with with assuming we do not follow the commandments when the foremost commandments has said commendations in principle.

It is both an agreement and a disagreement because not many, outside of JWs take the time to know what the truth is, something of which I mentioned in the past, even quoting people like Simon Brown, Brother Kel and even from Muslims who point out that you do not need a JW to help you understand the Bible.

I also posted evidence of former JWs who clearly do not know what is in the Bible and are quick to speak badly about them, examples like Magic Hands, Bob the Builder, and the 3 men who believes the Holy Spirit is a person.

Brother Kel, who does not hold to any denominational, even said it himself for those who leave JWs often end up adhering to the accursed, he himself is neutral with JWs.

You do not have to like or even agree with the religious leaders of JWs, but to speak of slander and or deceit, even pushing insult, infighting or conspiracy, a correction will be made.

5 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

So, I would be happy if you stopped trying to 'correct' me every time I comment. Please realise we have totally different opinions on most issues. Thankyou. 

Well if you had seen what I stated to witness, I will do what I have always done. I will not make a response to you unless your information is correct.

As for what issues? We have to speak what is accordance to the Bible, which brings us back to Luke 14:11. WT and Biblehub as with ALL Bible Study and Tools website point to the same exact information for this verse. So if you say that the WT only comes up with such regarding this verse, I will simply point out that it is not only them, it is everyone.

Therefore, do the research regarding anything biblical, even a single verse, then say something.

And you're welcome, not everyone scrolls down to commentary on the hub or Gateway.

[Space Merchant]

3 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

ohh Space, why you are so reckless? And why you put my quote out of context that is given as response to other participant of this conversation? Why you have to act similar as ......"Like one who grabs a stray dog by the ears is someone who rushes into a quarrel not their own."

Not out of context, it is actually true, hence why I put forth the examples.

I don't mind the insult because I am unfazed, this is going from a man who has seen things you consider unreal.

And no, everything uttered is exact truth unlike your claims of Peter being tempted or Chloe leading a church.

3 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Do you see yourself as person who have to put in right all things that is not right according to your own sense of "strictness" and your own feeling of "righteousness"?

I don't. For as said to you before I am bounded by what the Bible says, what the church teaches, what comes from God, his Christ and the Word that is written. I am bounded by my culture in terms of respect, truth and integrity and so forth.

I speak what is right because such ones like to cloud information, such ones base their belief on opinions and emotion, not realizing what is the actual truth in the matter.

That being said, tell me Srecko, how am I basing everything on my own feelings and emotion, in this sense?

And no, my culture does not allow to be prideful and or righteous, nice try though.

3 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Relax ... it is better. You will not change the World no matter as much you want and as much you try :))) Why not to learn something from others, why not let others to "correct" your way of correcting other people :))))  

I am always relaxed. I have changed lives, I have made a bit of change in the world, in my own country when it was hit by an earthquake and have witnessed death and a list of other things, even coming face to face with the occult that has plagued the islands, to add more salt to injury, our children was nearly taken into human trafficking and someone who was fighting against it was assassinated and his death ruled out to be a suicide and yet we still press forward. I helped out in Texas and even Puerto Rico when it was hit by the hurricane, when Sandy hit in 2012, I helped out on rebuilding the shore. I went to Africa and Thailand and met some good people, some of which who didn't know God, and the list goes on. I do not care what I was given, I do not do things to show off, I did such things because I choose to for God's people are able bodied and will give a helping hand.

Others can have their say, but surely no one is going to accept correction from a man, who stated God isn't surprised about people who change not just their sex, but their literal reproductive organs. It is thinking like that that shows you are not putting into application of God's Word let alone confusing Barak for Deborah, purposely, if you forgot that one.

If you want to "correct" show me evidence your Chloe claim, as with Peter's temptation because when I asked you, you dodged and evaded several times. Perhaps this time you can speak to correct something you yourself know to be false.

[Space Merchant]

5 hours ago, Paul Dedee said:

Atheism has been made to a religion. I believe your view extends through extremism as any other religion. The Watchtower holds the extremism of the first century Christian, as taught by Christ. Jesus went through what the Watchtower now goes through. I believe the message from Christ and the Apostles was to maintain faith with whatever came across as being tested.

And those who maintain faith ere burned at stakes, fed to the dogs, killed and used in rituals and a list of other things as time progresses to present day and onward.

I can imagine a day will come where things can be outlawed for in some parts of the US you can't even read and or quote the Bible.

5 hours ago, Paul Dedee said:

Atheism as you state fairs the same compulsion. This in itself does not condemn one entire group because of certain misguided views by certain people. If this was normal, then those people are positioning themselves as kings among men, as they cannot do this with God. Administrators also have a certain responsibility to allow all voices to we heard.

Some Atheists tend to detest all religions, others, among them, do not, they wish to understand religion and the Bible, others to the Qu'ran. And there is that small few that will go out of their way to cause problems.

Also true, but not all admins are the same, as to why I compare them to Game Masters, for you take his or her gold, they can boot you from the server, in this sense, admins tend to have a large control of a forum space, but at times can feel somewhat threatened and or other, thus taking action.

Although this is true, there are some admins who have a chill personality, and as we can see this thread isn't locked yet.

At all people like to hear the voices of others, be it the truth or false truths.

5 hours ago, Paul Dedee said:

I’m afraid this has not been the case in this forum. This is why I reject the advice of TTH and will tread lightly as not to offend the owner, as some have seen fit to offend others without repercussions. I have kept an eye for a while enough to see the reality.

That is his situation, for we had an example some months ago with a specific individual on this forum. He is still here, but is rumored to be under a different name and possibly pops up on occasion, mainly when anything more focused on Watchtower specifics is being talked about.

5 hours ago, Paul Dedee said:

In my opinion, too much emphasis is being placed in one individual that is rallying to portray a certain religion in a negative way, when it can easily be said about any other religion. The truth of the matter is inertia.

The truth should always be spoken, but not everyone likes hearing the facts, thus resorting to name calling and a few other things, also repetitive things in an attempt to get a thread closed, and or topic derailing.

5 hours ago, Paul Dedee said:

This is why, a single unproven claim carries no lasting weight, not even when the chips are stacked up high.

That said, this is an open forum for all is it not? If not, then it should be set to private so only those the owner likes will be granted and set as a target for a specific audience.

It is open, however things can get a little hectic. It isn't as bad as several other forums which can go from a rain forest to fire blazed woodland in an instant.

But originally, this area in the forums use to be called Controversial Post where often times you can be challenged and you have to be ready. Although it does not say that, such atmosphere is still present and we end up having forums posts like this.

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

17 hours ago, Anna said:

You can "suffer" anything if it's for the right reason.

I suffer terribly when I hear a public talk in a monotonous hour log monotone, on "The Wonders of Creation", and the speaker does not know the difference between a planet, and a star .... and misquotes sources ...... or states how horrible, terrible and mean things have become, when in fact it is the best time in the history of Human Civilization. (so far!)

... and that statement can be supported by MOUNTIANS of hard, cold facts.