Why John Butler Left Jehovah's Witnesses

[JW Insider]

10 hours ago, Anna said:

As far as I know @JW Insider is an active Witness. If so, perhaps he would like to explain why he didn't leave the org. 

I began to address this in a thread some time ago. As far as my status I mentioned this under another topic today:

• I am a Witness. I still associate and preach regularly and maintain my congregational privileges. To avoid specific conflicts and contentions I requested some time ago that I be allowed to step down from former congregational privileges.

On the question of why I didn't leave the organization, it's because I've never been asked to leave. I don't consider myself to be as "obedient and loyal" a Witness as others, but I see no reason to leave. There are hundreds of people in our brotherhood whom I love dearly, and I could not associate with them or do things for them if I chose to leave. I have no problem with the general intent and motivation of the organization, even if I see problems here and there. The problems certainly do not outweigh the good. It's not the religious organization that makes us Christian because we all stand on our own before Jehovah. Only if and when we are asked to obey men as ruler rather than God should we take a stand against the authority of men.

I was born and raised a Witness. I know that this illustration won't make sense to most Witnesses, but Paul said the following about the the outward appearances that can signify our religion to others, and he implies that the specifics that matter so much to others shouldn't matter so much to us personally.

• (1 Corinthians 7:17-24) Nevertheless, just as Jehovah has given each one a portion, let each one so walk as God has called him. And so I give this directive in all the congregations. 18 Was any man already circumcised when he was called? Let him not undo his circumcision. Has any man been called while uncircumcised? Let him not get circumcised. 19 Circumcision means nothing, and uncircumcision means nothing; what means something is the observing of God’s commandments. 20 In whatever state each one was called, let him remain in it. 21 Were you called when a slave? Do not let it concern you; but if you can become free, then seize the opportunity. 22 For anyone who was called in the Lord when a slave is the Lord’s freedman; likewise anyone who was called when a freeman is a slave of Christ. 23 You were bought with a price; stop becoming slaves of men. 24 In whatever state each one was called, brothers, let him remain in it before God.

If a person conscientiously feels that they are in a kind of servitude to men because of the religion, then they could seize the opportunity to get free, and I would not judge such a person, but would still want to help them maintain their spirituality. (But note that our true freedom is not our outward situation, but between ourselves and the Lord.) It's much easier to be a Christian with a loving brotherhood of Christians around us, related to us in the faith. Christianity is "social" and we need each other for encouragement and to continue to incite each other to good works toward one another. (Heb 10:24,25) I believe that the Witnesses provide this brotherhood. It's not specifically the doctrines, but it's the value we place on God's word, studying from it and teaching from it. The value placed on the Bible produces sensible faith-strengthening doctrines that honor God. It also helps us build a Christian character that can keep us free from the world's immorality, and free from the world's nationalism, conflicts and wars. With that in mind, I do not find it difficult to remain in the state I was called.

[JOHN BUTLER]

4 hours ago, JW Insider said:

I began to address this in a thread some time ago. As far as my status I mentioned this under another topic today:

• I am a Witness. I still associate and preach regularly and maintain my congregational privileges. To avoid specific conflicts and contentions I requested some time ago that I be allowed to step down from former congregational privileges.

On the question of why I didn't leave the organization, it's because I've never been asked to leave. I don't consider myself to be as "obedient and loyal" a Witness as others, but I see no reason to leave. There are hundreds of people in our brotherhood whom I love dearly, and I could not associate with them or do things for them if I chose to leave. I have no problem with the general intent and motivation of the organization, even if I see problems here and there. The problems certainly do not outweigh the good. It's not the religious organization that makes us Christian because we all stand on our own before Jehovah. Only if and when we are asked to obey men as ruler rather than God should we take a stand against the authority of men.

I was born and raised a Witness. I know that this illustration won't make sense to most Witnesses, but Paul said the following about the the outward appearances that can signify our religion to others, and he implies that the specifics that matter so much to others shouldn't matter so much to us personally.

• (1 Corinthians 7:17-24) Nevertheless, just as Jehovah has given each one a portion, let each one so walk as God has called him. And so I give this directive in all the congregations. 18 Was any man already circumcised when he was called? Let him not undo his circumcision. Has any man been called while uncircumcised? Let him not get circumcised. 19 Circumcision means nothing, and uncircumcision means nothing; what means something is the observing of God’s commandments. 20 In whatever state each one was called, let him remain in it. 21 Were you called when a slave? Do not let it concern you; but if you can become free, then seize the opportunity. 22 For anyone who was called in the Lord when a slave is the LordÂ’s freedman; likewise anyone who was called when a freeman is a slave of Christ. 23 You were bought with a price; stop becoming slaves of men. 24 In whatever state each one was called, brothers, let him remain in it before God.

If a person conscientiously feels that they are in a kind of servitude to men because of the religion, then they could seize the opportunity to get free, and I would not judge such a person, but would still want to help them maintain their spirituality. (But note that our true freedom is not our outward situation, but between ourselves and the Lord.) It's much easier to be a Christian with a loving brotherhood of Christians around us, related to us in the faith. Christianity is "social" and we need each other for encouragement and to continue to incite each other to good works toward one another. (Heb 10:24,25) I believe that the Witnesses provide this brotherhood. It's not specifically the doctrines, but it's the value we place on God's word, studying from it and teaching from it. The value placed on the Bible produces sensible faith-strengthening doctrines that honor God. It also helps us build a Christian character that can keep us free from the world's immorality, and free from the world's nationalism, conflicts and wars. With that in mind, I do not find it difficult to remain in the state I was called.

Very interesting, thank you. Although I will disagree with you on some points such as :-

'It also helps us build a Christian character that can keep us free from the world's immorality, '  That hasn't worked in a lot of cases has it ? 

'I still associate and preach regularly'. This is one of the things I could not continue to do because the point of preaching is not only to teach others about God, but to bring people into the congregation. I no longer felt  that the congregation was a safe place to bring people into, especially young children. 

'I don't consider myself to be as "obedient and loyal" a Witness as others, '. I liked this bit, that was how I survived as long as I did in the Org, by not being as obedient as others were...  

'The problems certainly do not outweigh the good'. Now that depends if you are a Victim of one of those problems or just a bystander. 

This comes back to my point about collateral damage. Brothers and sisters that are not Victims do not understand nor do they even want to know. 

'It's much easier to be a Christian with a loving brotherhood of Christians around us, related to us in the faith'.  Um, that depends upon the weight that the Org puts on people's shoulders. And it depends on the type of Elders you have too. Unfortunately some Elders do lord it over the congregation and make life miserable for the congregants. 

 'It's not specifically the doctrines', no because they change the meanings so often ... 

'There are hundreds of people in our brotherhood whom I love dearly, and I could not associate with them or do things for them if I chose to leave'

This is an important point. Because people build their lives around the JW Org. It becomes a social thing as much as a way of serving God. So if a person, such as myself, choses to leave, then they are deliberately cut off, not just from the religious aspect, but from a complete social circle of people. Shunned, isolated, ignored. 

I was lucky (maybe should not use the word lucky) that i became friends with a business man from London that owns a large seme-derelict mansion close to where i live. So I've spent most of this year doing unpaid work for him, clearing his mansion of furniture and car parts. It came about because of my wife's interest in old buildings and photography. So my wife and I have been happy to have the keys to a mansion and be able to go there any time we want. Without this interest and work i may have gone crazy. I will add i didn't do the work for the owner, i did it for my wife, so that she could go there as and when, and I did it for the mansion itself to give it back some dignity. It's been great therapy.  

[JOHN BUTLER]

5 hours ago, Anna said:

@JOHN BUTLER here is a recent case from the UK.  It seem that the authorities were the ones that delayed. This is a good example of the fact that reporting to authorities does not automatically assure success. You can read the whole article here:

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/devious-righteous-christian-raped-two-15274172

An "arrogant" Jehovah's Witness subjected two girls under the age of 13 to years of systematic assaults and rapes.

Roy Collins, 80, was branded as "devious, righteous and arrogant" by a judge at Swansea Crown Court.

He had spent a decade systematically grooming, abusing and raping the two girls.

At one point during his campaign of abuse, one of their mothers burst into the Jehovah's Witness church in Swansea and publicly accused him of being a paedophile only to receive a letter from his solicitors warning her not to harass him.

Carline Rees QC, for the prosecution, read out impact statements from the two victims.

One said she had lived with the abuse for years before telling her family.

When she did so, the news had a "devastating effect" on her mother.

She said the abuse had an "significant impact" on her life, adding: "Every day I am happy if I can just make it through".

In her statement, the second victim said the abuse had led to her have trouble at school and to start taking drugs to try to "block out" what was happening. She said her suffering and pain continues to this day.

The court heard that one of the victims made a complaint about Collins in the 1990s, but he was not prosecuted.

The allegations were reported to the police again in 2013 - but it took five years for the matter to come to court.

Judge Geraint Walters told the defendant that his actions during the 1980s and 90s had been "truly wicked".

He described Collins as a "devious, arrogant and self-righteous man" who had lived behind veil of respectability partly through his contact with the Jehovah's Witness church.

The judge said that an example of his deviousness was the fact that when the allegations against him started to be investigated, he went to his GP claiming that he had suffered erectile dysfunction for the last 30 years.

Judge Walters said: "You are, in my judgement, a devious man, a self-righteous and arrogant man. You have shown no remorse what-so-ever towards your victims or anybody else.

"You have lived the better part of you life, you have been able to do that - your victims have not.

"There is no sentence I can pass that will restore the lives of the victims to what they might have been but for your behaviour."

He added that the case showed that when allegations of sexual abuse were made they should be tested and investigated not disbelieved.

He called the the five year delay in the case eventually coming to court "unforgivable".

But he praised the officer who eventually took-over the case and saw it through to conviction, saying that for the first time the victims had been treated with the dignity they deserved.

Thank you for this information Anna. You seem to be proving more and more just how much sexual abuse is going on within the JW Org. 

And for me it just proves that by leaving i did the right thing.  Why would i want to encourage families into this ? 

The Police or authorities should be taken to court in this case, and if it can be proved that they are to blame for the length of time the abuse continued, then they should have to compensate the Victims. As you say they do delay sometimes, but they should be shown up for their 'mistakes'.

 

[Srecko Sostar]

15 hours ago, Anna said:

Does one person have more facts than the other upon which they base their decision? And what are those facts?

i don't know :))

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

It's not just available facts ... it is the skill individual people have or do not have in CORRECTLY EVALUATING those facts.

There are Good Detectives ... and there are Bad Detectives.

Bad Detectives do not detect much.

[Srecko Sostar]

15 hours ago, Anna said:

That is not my objective at all, to make someone better or worse.

i meant, better or worst Decision Maker :))

[JOHN BUTLER]

1 hour ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

It's not just available facts ... it is the skill individual people have or do not have in CORRECTLY EVALUATING those facts.

There are Good Detectives ... and there are Bad Detectives.

Bad Detectives do not detect much.

Then there are unqualified Elders, that are puppets and told what to 'detect' and what not to. 

[JOHN BUTLER]

Just an update for SM really.... The only religion that i know of that go from door to door, house to house every day of every week are the Jehovah's Witnesses. In the twenty years we have lived in this house I have only seen the Mormons three times. I have never seen any other religious person at my door.

The Jehovah's Witnesses visit people homes to give personal bible studies, but also to invite people into their Kingdom Halls. 

One reason I stopped being a JW was because I thought inviting people into a Kingdom Hall was not a good thing to do in light of the Child Abuse problem within the JW org. 

My point that i am making is that i want to warn people not to go to Kingdom Halls and not to have these 'strangers' into their homes. Because Jehovah's Witnesses are not outwardly honest about Pedophiles within the JW Org it could easily be that a pedophile JW could be in your home or at the Kingdom Hall. I suppose you could say that i feel responsible to the community as i was once a JW myself and would encourage people into the local Kingdom Hall. 

JW Elders have been known to give private bible study to young children, one on one. So at that time the man would be alone with a child. I think in their official documents they say that this does not happen, but I can assure you it does. 

And, someone else commented that women too can be pedophiles. Yes of course, so that could cause another problem in the Kingdom Hall where a woman may take a child out to the toilet to 'help' the mother who may have more children in the hall. It is such a shame that people cannot be trusted, and i know it may be only one in a thousand, but it does happen. 

Because JW congregants are generally lovely people, friendly, kind, helpful etc, there is more chance of something bad happening there. Why ? Because people are off guard, not expecting anything bad. So i am deeply concerned about the welfare of children, but more so in the case of JW Org, because I was once part of that Org so i know that there are lots of children per congregation and i can see how easy it would be for a pedophile to get away with things. 

[Judith Sweeney]

Just speaking for myself....on this Slanderous Topic....I have NEVER left my children...EVER "one on one" with ANYONE....besides My Parents.    I don't care WHO they were....muchless, What organization they might be affiliated with.     

             The "human factor".....

[JOHN BUTLER]

52 minutes ago, Judith Sweeney said:

Just speaking for myself....on this Slanderous Topic....I have NEVER left my children...EVER "one on one" with ANYONE....besides My Parents.    I don't care WHO they were....muchless, What organization they might be affiliated with.     

             The "human factor".....

slander

/ˈslɑːndə/

noun

LAW

 

1. 1.

   the action or crime of making a false spoken statement damaging to a person's reputation.

   "he is suing the TV company for slander"

    

   Judith I think you will find it has been proven that these things happen, hence it is not slander but truth

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

"STUFF HAPPENS"

Less stuff happens to those with a reputation for killing people that wrong them.

"Loving counsel" does not work nearly as well as fear of being duct taped to a chair, having your kneecaps and fingernails removed, or being neutered,  with Vise-Grip pliers.

[JOHN BUTLER]

2 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

"STUFF HAPPENS"

Less stuff happens to those with a reputation for killing people that wrong them.

"Loving counsel" does not work nearly as well as fear of being duct taped to a chair, having your kneecaps and fingernails removed with Vise-Grip pliers.

Or fear of being disfellowshipped and completely isolated from everyone you ever knew or trusted.