Why John Butler Left Jehovah's Witnesses

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

14 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

The Kavanaugh hearings also ought to have made clear that the lauded impartiality of the world’s justice system is but a bad joke. Law is not the issue. One’s interpretation of law is the issue and that is forged in emotion which is forged in one’s personal experience.

I watched the Kananaugh Senate Hearings this past Thursday for the whole 9-1/2 or so hours, and was VERY impressed.  I also watched on Friday the Committee's deliberations that moved his nomination along ... about 3 hours.  I was very impressed once again.

How much, TTH, did YOU ACTUALLY WATCH, to form your opinions as stated?

[Anna]

19 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

In period of 1980 and on JW magazine talking about, as i read in this magazine, only women as victims

I didn't notice that. Which magazine was that?

19 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Second, WT talking about issue as a sin, not crime that have to be handled by secular authorities. 

Obviously it is both. The main objective of the WT is to prevent child sexual abuse.  Interestingly, secular articles on this subject also take that as their main objective. Not only that, but they are aware that secular authorities are not the only solution. Read this secular article here:

http://www.childmolestationprevention.org/pages/tell_others_the_facts.html

19 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Surely one who was sexually abused as a child can be certain of God’s understanding and loving acceptance. Why, Jehovah forgives even those who, unlike the abused child, commit gross sins—if they repent and change their course of action!—1 Corinthians 6:9-11. - https://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/w19831001/help-for-victim-of-incest/

From this it can be seen how "Scriptural Based Position" looks like. Child molestation is a gross sin that can be handled without much fuss in Judicial Committee of elders. 

That's not what I understood from that article at all. It was clearly talking about helping a victim of incest, it was not focusing on the perpetrator. And it is true, Jehovah can forgive ANY sin if the person turns around (unless it is a sin against the holy spirit). The article was merely pointing out that if the victim feels like they have done something bad, and it is their fault, (and many victims do feel this way) that they shouldn't feel like that, because if Jehovah can forgive an repentant perpetrator, how much more so will he understand and comfort the victim!

20 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

A) Child sexual abuse is a perversion

B) Jehovah’s Witnesses abhor child abuse and view it as a crime.

C) Child abuse is a serious sin.

https://www.jw.org/en/news/legal/legal-resources/information/packet-jw-scripturally-based-position-child-protection

 

When and how GB WTJWorg came to this NEW Instructions and attitude about issue?

What makes you think this is new?

WT 1988 /4/15 page 11. par.6

"Distrust has increased because of another growing fear in our day: the fear of becoming a victim of crime. Many now do like the woman who said that she sleeps with a revolver under her pillow. Another fearful woman said: “I resent it. . . . My grandmother never locked her doors.” Thus, a newspaper editorial in Puerto Rico declared: “The ones who are imprisoned are us,” yes, in our own barred and locked homes. These fears are well founded. In the United States, for example, one woman in three is likely to be assaulted during her lifetime. The surgeon general there noted that “some four million Americans fall victim to serious violence every year—murder, rape, wife-beating, child-abuse, muggings.” Such crime is common in many lands, further damaging the trust that people have in others".

20 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

With a Little Help of people who are under "devil control". When Courts, experts for child health, Commissions and other Secular Institutions made more talking and made some pressure on religious and other group, institution who HAVE Problem with this. 

I think it would be good if you got some facts from secular articles on child sexual abuse, like this one: https://www.d2l.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/Statistics_6_Reporting.pdf

I am sure if you Googled "child sexual abuse" in your own language you would come across similar articles. Don't read about the Witnesses, read about what is happening in your country: https://www.24sata.hr/news/u-hrvatskoj-je-lani-seksualno-zlostavljano-cak-848-djece-523418

21 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Until today, as what i know,  WT Legal Department are not willing to fully cooperate with Courts and other Secular authorities in benefit to victims. Some victims want money, and why not. Because WT victims was not and perhaps will never heard Words of Sincere Repent and Apologize from all those who make them so miserable because not handled their matters and problems in a way that would imitate Heaven's Love, Comfort and Justice.  JWorg web was never, until now, said how GB and other people in position (elder) made (and making still now) big errors and not handled this properly in harmony with all good Instructions that can be found in The Holy Book and in Secular Books too.

WT has NEVER shielded or protected known perpetrators. The GB have not mishandled cases of child abuse, the elders have. Elders have apologized to victims where possible. The whole organization cannot be held responsible for every case that happens in congregations. Have you personally had experience of having to handle an accusation of child molestation by someone in the congregation? If not, then you cannot know what you are talking about. If yes, then please let us know what happened.

 

[JOHN BUTLER]

7 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

This exactly makes my point. This is pure emotion. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the passage you used to segue into it. It is nothing more than your unhinged hatred of the GB speaking. You suffered abuse in pre-Witness days such as does not afflict one in a thousand. The ‘upside’ is that you know how depraved humans can be. The downside is that you think they all are when child sexual abuse has occurred.

As reported on this thread or elsewhere (I’ll relocate it if I have to) two thirds of professionals REQUIRED BY LAW to report suspected abuse fail to do it. Are they all vile? Plainly, other factors are at work, but you can see only one.

 It is as stated before: You are too close to a particular tree to properly assess the forest. You were tied to a tree that was rotten. You think they all are.

I think we should get a few points straight.

The Child Abuse / Pedophilia problem within JW Org is NOT A SMALL ONE.

It is an Earthwide problem, not just 'a few' people. It has been going on within the JW Org for many years, 50 years in Australia it seems.

For at least 20 years the GB have been collecting accusations of Child Abuse in the USA. 

Many many many of the victims have said they were told NOT TO REPORT IT TO THE POLICE OR OUTSIDE AUTHORITIES.

Many of them have said they were not believed because of the TWO WITNESS RULE.

Jesus said, 'If anyone stumbles the least of these little one it would have better it they has a millstone tied around their neck and they were thrown into the sea'. Do you believe these words of Jesus ? 

We know about Child Abuse  / PEDOPHILIA in the JW Org in  : Australia, Canada, America, the Netherlands and the UK.

I have no info' of child abuse in other JW countries, but I would think it is happening everywhere.

If ten people come forward to tell of their abuse then probably 100 more have not come forward. So we have no way of knowing how many have been abused. So this silly idea of giving a percentage means nothing.

I am blaming the GB because they make the rules, not according to scripture but according to their own preference.

If only half of the accusations are true it is still too many.

As for comparing the JW Org and or GB to, 'professionals REQUIRED BY LAW to report', that's like comparing God's organisation to Satan's world. There should be no comparison. It does not matter what those so called 'professionals' do or do not do. If you believe the GB are the 'faithful slave' then even you should expect the GB to serve Jehovah properly. 

Serving Jehovah properly would mean taking care of 'widows and orphans' 'little ones' everyone within the Christian Congregation. And that would mean keeping the Org clean and free of Pedophiles. 

In my opinion that means that EVERY ACCUSATION OF CHILD ABUSE IN EVERY COUNTRY SHOULD BE REPORTED TO THE POLICE OR AUTHORITIES. And the GB should have handed over the 20 years worth of documents to the court whether it was 'the law or not'. 

But as i say, Collateral damage. Brothers, sisters, children. All destroyed just to keep the Org looking clean.

You keep pretending I'm over emotional, if it serves your purpose, if it keeps your conscience clear. 

I'll keep distrusting the Governing Body as I know clearly in my mind they are not the 'faithful slave' they are the 'wicked slave that says the master is delaying in coming'.   

[TrueTomHarley]

9 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

I watched the Kananaugh Senate Hearings this past Thursday for the whole 9-1/2 or so hours, and was VERY impressed.  

If I recall correctly, you are also VERY impressed with the Terminator, Jack Reach, and Die Hard movies. Here, I admit, my screen time is slim.

2 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

You keep pretending I'm over emotional, 

You write that way. Whether you are or not, how would I know?

You cannot mishandle something that you never attempted to handle. JWs did the best they could in cleaning house when few others had any interest in doing likewise. The fact that cases from 2000 on do not present themselves (they are ever from the 80s and 90s) suggests that whatever problems there were, they have been corrected.

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

9 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

23 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

The Kavanaugh hearings also ought to have made clear that the lauded impartiality of the world’s justice system is but a bad joke. Law is not the issue. One’s interpretation of law is the issue and that is forged in emotion which is forged in one’s personal experience.

I watched the Kananaugh Senate Hearings this past Thursday for the whole 9-1/2 or so hours, and was VERY impressed.  I also watched on Friday the Committee's deliberations that moved his nomination along ... about 3 hours.  I was very impressed once again.

How much, TTH, did YOU ACTUALLY WATCH, to form your opinions as stated?

Since you COMPLETELY avoided my simple, straightforward question I will state that once again you have stated a strong opinion about which you know nothing at all.

You are one super scary dude, dude.

[TrueTomHarley]

3 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Since you COMPLETELY avoided my simple, straightforward question I will state that once again you have stated a strong opinion about which you know nothing at all.

You are one super scary dude, dude.

It may be that I don’t consider this forum your own personal courtroom so that you can try your own vendettas and cross-examine opponents at will. Have you attended all the legal JW trials that you lecture the rest of us about?

Summaries, reviews, commentaries, and concordances usually get the job done. The trick is to be sure they are not all penned by your own people but also by those you disagree with. I pass this test.

Otherwise, one ought not comment on any Bible verse without first having demonstrated competency in Hebrew and Greek. Moreover, there are plenty of elitist boors who think it is that way, and they try to run every opponent off the road who has not ‘attended the proper schools’ as they.

I read continually, sometimes original sources, sometimes not. Suffice it to say that builds up a reservoir to draw on more quickly than does watching every offering from Hollywood, watching nine and a half hours of the Kavanaugh hearings, or reading the phone book.

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

TTH:

Contrary to your own personal belief, acquaintance with what is inside a box of Band-Aids, does not qualify you to have profound surgical opinions.

Except of course ... in your world of fantasy.

[Srecko Sostar]

15 hours ago, Anna said:

I didn't notice that. Which magazine was that?

In this https://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/w19831001/help-for-victim-of-incest/

Here is only place i find they mention about male victims. All other paragraphs  talking, giving experiences about girls and woman.

"Studies in the United States suggest that one in five girls and one in ten boys suffer sexual molestation before they grow up."

[Srecko Sostar]

15 hours ago, Anna said:

What makes you think this is new?

WT 1988 /4/15 page 11. par.6

"Distrust has increased because of another growing fear in our day: the fear of becoming a victim of crime.

 I think this is general statement, about all crimes in society. Article mentioned among others crime and child molestation. But this is not told by WT authors, but by newspaper editorial in Puerto Rico declared: 

Reporter who wrote article said in fact - child molestation is a crime. Not WT magazine.

Let see again what you paste:

 

WT 1988 /4/15 page 11. par.6

"Distrust has increased because of another growing fear in our day: the fear of becoming a victim of crime. Many now do like the woman who said that she sleeps with a revolver under her pillow. Another fearful woman said: “I resent it. . . . My grandmother never locked her doors.” Thus, a newspaper editorial in Puerto Rico declared: “The ones who are imprisoned are us,” yes, in our own barred and locked homes. These fears are well founded. In the United States, for example, one woman in three is likely to be assaulted during her lifetime. The surgeon general there noted that “some four million Americans fall victim to serious violence every year—murder, rape, wife-beating, child-abuse, muggings.” Such crime is common in many lands, further damaging the trust that people have in others".

Beginning and the end of this paragraph you paste, have quotation mark. It seems that source of that text is not WT author, but some secular source, newspaper, book or interview. 

 WT talking about sin not about crime. When Bible speaking about some bad human behavior it is always in context with sin never with crime. WT running religion so they talking and teaching  in such lexical and historical way about human behavior. Bible, the Law of OT and NT Commands  not speaking about CRIME but only and always about SIN.

WORD CRIME almost not EXIST in Bible, as i know. NWT using word "crime" only in Luke 23:4. But here  is about Pilates who said how he can not find any CRIME about Jesus.  Then Pilate said to the chief priests and the crowds: “I find no crime in this man.”  Other translations using words; Charge, Condemn, Guilt, Fault. So, if Pilates really used word CRIME, that would by explainable by fact that he was servant of Roman Empire and Roman Legal and Judicial System that possibly using such terminology in Courts and in Roman Legislative. Perhaps somebody other here can tell more about word CRIME and Roman Empire. 

[TrueTomHarley]

57 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

"Studies in the United States suggest that one in five girls and one in ten boys suffer sexual molestation before they grow up."

Invisiblechildren.org, first brought to my attention by JWI, gives a figure even higher: one in four for girls, one in six for boys.

1 hour ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Contrary to your own personal belief, acquaintance with what is inside a box of Band-Aids, does not qualify you to have profound surgical opinions.

I would never say that going to original sources is valueless. I do not practice abstinence in that regard myself. But large amount of anything original is throat-clearing rubbish. You do as well, often better, considering what the thinkers have said about it, and processing the pros and cons that they observe. . 

Unless you are a thinker yourself. Possibly you will modestly admit that you are not. Are you not the one who relies on 'chain-saw logic'?

"Sure, 90% of science fiction is crud. That's because 90% of everything is crud."  Theodore Sturgeon

 

[Srecko Sostar]

16 hours ago, Anna said:

WT has NEVER shielded or protected known perpetrators. The GB have not mishandled cases of child abuse, the elders have. Elders have apologized to victims where possible. The whole organization cannot be held responsible for every case that happens in congregations. Have you personally had experience of having to handle an accusation of child molestation by someone in the congregation? If not, then you cannot know what you are talking about. If yes, then please let us know what happened.

1) The GB have not mishandled cases of child abuse, the elders have.

Elders are extended arm of WT system. GB claim that they are appointed to giving "spiritual food". What is spiritual food? All what is told and written to GUIDE God's People on Earth. GB are Chanel of Communication between JHVH and Jesus .......and their Earthly Organization, Chosen People, Spiritual Nation that will survive Armageddon . They will survive if they Listen and Obey what FDS aka GB Teach and Instruct Jehovah's Witnesses.

Is here something that confused You Anna?         

2)  Elders have apologized to victims where possible.

Agree! .........But also Top Management have same obligation.

3) The whole organization cannot be held responsible for every case that happens in congregations.

WT was explained few times in publication, very rare done, i can recall one most two time when they discus about Personal and Collective Responsibility.  Yes, Organization is that Entity that is RESPONSIBLE for what members of that same Organization DOING! If you are member of the "Club" you are expected to play by the rule of the Club. If you not Club have to deal with You. If Club ignore what members doing and if members harm each other (or outside people) Club is obligated to call those who can handle issue. Club must know what they may and can and must solve "in the family" and what must go to Authority.

4)  Have you personally had experience of having to handle an accusation of child molestation by someone in the congregation? If not, then you cannot know what you are talking about. If yes, then please let us know what happened.

No, i have no personal experience in this issue.  ....and you are close to right conclusion how i am clueless what is going on :))))

[JOHN BUTLER]

ANNA says "WT has NEVER shielded or protected known perpetrators. The GB have not mishandled cases of child abuse, the elders have.." 

Did the GB and or it's Legal Departments  (for W/t and for JW Org)  refuse to hand over the documents in America. 

I believe they admitted having such documents which relate to twenty years worth of Child Abuse accusations.

Is it then true that the Legal dept of one (either W/t or JW Org) wrote a letter to the other asking for the documents, and the other Legal dept wrote back saying they would not hand them over. When in fact the GB rule over both and could have given orders for the documents to be handed over directly. 

That is why the courts became annoyed because the GB were deliberately wasting time. 

If all the info had been passed to police at the time each event happened, instead of storing it all up in 'secret' for twenty years, then the situation would never have taken place, and the lives of some people would not have been ruined because they would not have become victims of abuse.... 

To use the excuse of whether the Pedophiles were KNOWN PERPETRATORS, is very poor. Because it was just so easy to say that the victims didn't have two witnesses.