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Why John Butler Left Jehovah's Witnesses

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My reason is that certain men have slipped in among you who were long ago appointed to this judgment by the Scriptures; they are ungodly men who turn the undeserved kindness of our God into an excuse for brazen conduct and who prove false to...”

Sounds like the GB of JW Org Tom. They have definitely proven false in their actions and words. 

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Apostates and loyal ones unite! At last we have found common cause! Let us band together and beat up @admin, who presumes to break up our riotous party! If we want to ruin his website, what's that to him? I will even be gracious and concede that you guys won a round. You correctly predicted that he would 'lose it' on a weekend. I could have sworn it would have been on a weekday. 

Probably admin knows that not one Witness he sees here on these controversial threads is a typical Witness. They are all 'rouge' to one degree of another, myself included. They all have their own individual reasons for being here, as do I. None of them are heeding the Witness organizations' preference not to engage in disputes with determined opposers.

Witnesses are encouraged by their organization not to dispute. 'Put your version of truth out there, and if they reject it, they reject it.' Whatever one may think about Witnesses, one must concede that they endeavor to present their message with dignity, whether it be door-to-door, their website, or the recent innovations of 'cart witnessing.' The dignity all shreds when they come here and similar places (there are actually very few where both sides mix together - you can take a bow for hosting I think the most prominent one) which is why the organization prefers they stay away.

There is a WT study today that I am sure Jack Ryan will start a thread on, if he hasn't already, about internet sources reporting on Witnesses and how it is best not to get carried away by what they may say, since they generally present 'distorted facts,' the germ of which is not untrue, necessarily but 'distorted.' It will be Jack's turn to 'lose it' over this. is the Watchtower wrong not to comment specifically on this or that news report? Many charge that. But since polls consistently show that trust in the media is abysmal and that people take for granted that they are often inaccurate, they tend to say 'why go there?'

They encourage their people to 'persuade,' but not 'debate. They encourage them to follow the example of Jesus, who routinely did things that would infuriate any devotee of debate. He continually answered questions with counter-questions. He raised many a straw man argument. ('gaining context', it used to be called) He spun complex parables that he rarely explained. Let the heart figure it out.

What! Is it cheap entertainment we are speaking of? Jesus said religious truth would be 'the pearl of great price' that you must 'exert yourself vigorously' to lay hold of. He didn't say it was a fine thing to sit on your butt and wait for the 'winner' of a debate to toss it to you. Debate invariably focuses attention, not on the merits of any given idea, but on the skill of the debater. In debate school, one is taught to argue both sides of a given argument. That fact ought to suffice to assess 'debate' as a way to arrive at truth. 

You would never know it from here, but the best way to uncover how most Witnesses feel about their governing arrangement is to attend a Regional Convention. The line that invariably brings down the house with applause is: 'Would you like to send your greetings to the brothers in Bethel?'

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3 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Paul, I do not know which side of the 'table' you are coming from but I must pick up on one point.

You wrote Spiritual “Israel” are the anointed ones.  They are assembled IN THE WATCHTOWER.  Rom 2:28,29; Heb 8:10; Rev 7:4

The scriptures you have noted here do not, i repeat, do not back up your comment.

John,

First of all, I am not here to defend either side. I believe each proactive religion stands for something positive. A religion that adheres to the first century standard of worship which Jesus taught also had a standard for excellence. Members within those groups also were subject to critical review by their Elders and High Priest.

I made no such point as you describe the rebuttal other than making certain observations by the posting of a certain commentator by the name of, witness. My observation was made in lieu of the material being used to make a point. A right I believe each owner should prevent from being excessive if they have not been granted certain rights to publish other people’s material. That’s all.

I can appreciate that fact that many people feel their life story should be told and listened to. I believe the FORD story was credible, as I’m sure your is. No one should be in a position to lie and have others believe is such a lie. understandably, I don't believe anyone here can qualify as an expert witness to what happened to you. This is why Ford’s testimony failed to achieve the smell test. Not because she was not credible, but because the standard of law was used. If she could not convince a panel of Senators that had much more information than what the public was seeing, then a grand jury would expect that type of information to decide whether or not to indict.

Now, her story has become a rallying cry by many groups, just as it has become a rallying cry for White Cops that shoot Black kids while running away. Pedophilia is also at the forefront of many nations.

So, you don’t have to repeat your story to gain attention for your cause. Just know that many religions are experiencing this problem and that experience is not limited to one religion. This is where the difference is. When a person or a certain group of people attempt to make one certain religion out to be worse than others.

I can think of plenty of reasons not to become a Muslim. One happens to be the sharia law. Should I condemn all Muslims because of some radical Islamism? Should we then think because many Christian religions have a priest go into battle to pray for their side to win, make all Christians guilty?

This would mean, you are personal holding Christ responsible for the things people do. That has become your rallying cry. Others here happen to think the opposite. Not because they don’t find you credible but because they find your attacks offensive and at times not forthcoming. This is the kind of mentality that got Jesus killed.

Where does it end with imperfection abound in every discussion by many nations? There is no right or wrong answer since the makeup of peoples solution is being considered by a society that is imperfect itself.

Then it becomes a question of loyalty. If you want to serve God and Christ, you need faith in them to understand, what you seek can’t be found on this earth. This is where being with those that have that same value can give you that personal strength to better your life instead of always being in the dark.

Now, doesn’t scripture mention that? I would use the public domain bible KJV, but I find it, it might be difficult for some to read. Ephesians 5:8

It does no one good to harbor resentment and hate. I believe it’s time to reconstitute the art of civility if we as a society, hope to find common ground for now.

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I quite love how, even though I explain my self fully in English everyone should be able to understand, people still love to misquote me or to pretend that I've said something. 

An example here. 

This would mean, you are personal holding Christ responsible for the things people do. That has become your rallying cry.

What utter nonsense. I have love for God and His son Jesus Christ. I would not blame either for the way people act. 

However, I do question people that pretend to be receiving direct instruction from either of those, from above. Especially when they get things all wrong, and also mistreat the ones they are supposed to be helping. 

 "...they find your attacks offensive... " Well the Pharisees found Jesus offensive too. Truth very often hurts. 

The Russians must have found the Witnesses offensive, they banned them and stole all of their property I believe. 

So it is, life goes on. 

 

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4 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Apostates and loyal ones unite! At last we have found common cause! Let us band together and beat up @admin, who presumes to break up our riotous party! If we want to ruin his website, what's that to him? I will even be gracious and concede that you guys won a round. You correctly predicted that he would 'lose it' on a weekend. I could have sworn it would have been on a weekday. 

Probably admin knows that not one Witness he sees here on these controversial threads is a typical Witness. They are all 'rouge' to one degree of another, myself included. They all have their own individual reasons for being here, as do I. None of them are heeding the Witness organizations' preference not to engage in disputes with determined opposers.

Witnesses are encouraged by their organization not to dispute. 'Put your version of truth out there, and if they reject it, they reject it.' Whatever one may think about Witnesses, one must concede that they endeavor to present their message with dignity, whether it be door-to-door, their website, or the recent innovations of 'cart witnessing.' The dignity all shreds when they come here and similar places (there are actually very few where both sides mix together - you can take a bow for hosting I think the most prominent one) which is why the organization prefers they stay away.

There is a WT study today that I am sure Jack Ryan will start a thread on, if he hasn't already, about internet sources reporting on Witnesses and how it is best not to get carried away by what they may say, since they generally present 'distorted facts,' the germ of which is not untrue, necessarily but 'distorted.' It will be Jack's turn to 'lose it' over this. is the Watchtower wrong not to comment specifically on this or that news report? Many charge that. But since polls consistently show that trust in the media is abysmal and that people take for granted that they are often inaccurate, they tend to say 'why go there?'

They encourage their people to 'persuade,' but not 'debate. They encourage them to follow the example of Jesus, who routinely did things that would infuriate any devotee of debate. He continually answered questions with counter-questions. He raised many a straw man argument. ('gaining context', it used to be called) He spun complex parables that he rarely explained. Let the heart figure it out.

What! Is it cheap entertainment we are speaking of? Jesus said religious truth would be 'the pearl of great price' that you must 'exert yourself vigorously' to lay hold of. He didn't say it was a fine thing to sit on your butt and wait for the 'winner' of a debate to toss it to you. Debate invariably focuses attention, not on the merits of any given idea, but on the skill of the debater. In debate school, one is taught to argue both sides of a given argument. That fact ought to suffice to assess 'debate' as a way to arrive at truth. 

You would never know it from here, but the best way to uncover how most Witnesses feel about their governing arrangement is to attend a Regional Convention. The line that invariably brings down the house with applause is: 'Would you like to send your greetings to the brothers in Bethel?'

Probably admin knows that not one Witness he sees here on these controversial threads is a typical Witness.

What is a typical Witness ? 

You would never know it from here, but the best way to uncover how most Witnesses feel about their governing arrangement is to attend a Regional Convention. The line that invariably brings down the house with applause is: 'Would you like to send your greetings to the brothers in Bethel?'

Yes it's all puppet fashion and tradition. It is so corny. It is the expected thing, so they have to do it. 

But they are your typical Witnesses. They live in a bubble. They spend all their time together, do everything together, and never really look at the outside world. They never ask questions. They just obey orders. They believe what today's Watchtower orders them to believe. They are frightened to question the Elders and definitely much to scared to question the Governing Body.  Fear of being shunned drives them onward. It may not be seen from the outside, but it's there. 

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15 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

The line that invariably brings down the house with applause is: 'Would you like to send your greetings to the brothers in Bethel?'

 Yes it's all puppet fashion and tradition. It is so corny. It is the expected thing, so they have to do it. 

You know, you may have a point. I have looked closely at these times and I can tell that they don’t want to applaud. They REALLY REALLY DON’T want to applaud. But then they notice an elder glowering at them and sweat breaks out on their brow. In some cases, they pee their pants. In the end, even though they hate the thought, they clap and clap and clap. Sometimes their hands turn to mush and the paramedics have to haul them away for first aid.

I mean, it is possible to overplay the paranoia card, John.

They applaud because they liked the program and appreciate the work of those that put it together.

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18 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

You know, you may have a point. I have looked closely at these times and I can tell that they don’t want to applaud. They REALLY REALLY DON’T want to applaud. But then they notice an elder glowering at them and sweat breaks out on their brow. In some cases, they pee their pants. In the end, even though they hate the thought, they clap and clap and clap. Sometimes their hands turn to mush and the paramedics have to haul them away for first aid.

I mean, it is possible to overplay the paranoia card, John.

They applaud because they liked the program and appreciate the work of those that put it together.

Tom i know you are quite funny at times, but I think you seem to want to forget that 

I HAVE BEEN THERE AND DONE ALL THAT.  It's hype. They are conditioned to 'like the programme'. We were all expected to applaud. 

I know that you don't want to believe that teenagers are almost 'dragged' to assemblies, or bribed by having special clothes (that the teens want) bought for them. Hence the way some teens are dressed at assemblies, it's the only way they would agree to go there.  

That kids are ordered to answer up in Watchtower studies and made to pre-study for hours and write down long answers, which in truth they don't even understand. They just answer parrot fashion. And kids are made to do the field service, ordered by parents to do it.

Kids are even told to get baptised by their parents, and it seems to be getting younger every year. Jesus was 30 years old. 

Hence many teenagers, when they leave school, leave home asap, to get away from the orders of their parents...

Have you not noticed any of that ?   

But please do remember that I HAVE BEEN THERE AND SEEN IT ALL. It is not something I've read in a newspaper or seen on the 'web'. 

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23 hours ago, admin said:

LABEL and KILL seems to be the way most groups continue to operate nowadays.

When you cite Jehovah's Witnesses, you are citing almost the only example you could cite that disproves your point. Categorically, they will not be kill or be maneuvered by the national king into killing. How bad can they be?

 

23 hours ago, admin said:

This technology alone is proving far superior to any fear based religion. 

Is it? I'll even call you on this. The general reality is that social media is more apt to spread hate than resolution. Religion, however, at its best, will spread love in a way that your technology could not even dream of. 

And what is this idiocy of 'fear-based religion?' Methinks you are in danger of drinking too much of the Kool-Aid yourself. How often in Scripture is the expression 'Fear God' or 'Fear Jehovah?' Almost 40. I counted. It is 'fear' in the same sense children used to routinely fear their parents, out of love and respect, fear of displeasing them, with 'punishment' only a background concern. 

Increasingly the ones to be feared are the 'anti-cultists' who expand the definition of a PEJORATIVE word so as to cover people they don't like. Under the guise of 'protecting' them from ideas they don't want heard, their Russian soul-brothers have gone so far as to arrest them and steal all their property.

If you must carry on about 'this technology,' consider this paragraph from a book from (blush) a favorite author of mine as to how the Witness organization has used it:

"In recent years, the Watchtower organization even offers its own programming through a JW Broadcasting streaming channel, a refreshing and most unusual alternative to mainstream TV. Members of the Governing Body thus repeat the pattern they are known for with any new technology: They eye it with suspicion. They advise caution. They know that when the thief switches getaway cars, it is the thief you have to watch, not the dazzling features of the new car. They follow the thief for a time. Convinced at last that they still have a bead on him, they examine the car. They circle it warily, kicking the tires. At last satisfied, they jump in with both feet and put it to good uses its inventors could only have dreamed of."     Tom Irregardless and Me

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4 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

I quite love how, even though I explain my self fully in English everyone should be able to understand, people still love to misquote me or to pretend that I've said something. 

An example here. 

This would mean, you are personal holding Christ responsible for the things people do. That has become your rallying cry.

What utter nonsense. I have love for God and His son Jesus Christ. I would not blame either for the way people act. 

However, I do question people that pretend to be receiving direct instruction from either of those, from above. Especially when they get things all wrong, and also mistreat the ones they are supposed to be helping. 

 "...they find your attacks offensive... " Well the Pharisees found Jesus offensive too. Truth very often hurts. 

Then you can understand what nonsense is. In all fairness, that can be ascertained by an opposing view. As for Jesus being offensive, he was a perfect man and a symbol for the truth, whereas you are not. So, there is no comparison to the behavior you are applying for the truth as you see it. Jesus experience is documented in scripture. Is yours?

But, it seems that’s where the line is drawn with some people when insults without provocation lead them to automatically assume right (truth) is on their side.

Perhaps you can be civil with your response, and not show hatred upon your fellow man just because there is no redemption through them. The owner is correct to suggest, people like yourself should move on, and find a religion you can accept to worship God and Christ the correct way. None of the arguments posted are noteworthy in Christian life, and I believe that is a road you seek.

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....

6 hours ago, Paul Dedee said:

Perhaps you can be civil with your response, and not show hatred upon your fellow man just because there is no redemption through them. The owner is correct to suggest, people like yourself should move on, and find a religion you can accept to worship God and Christ the correct way.

 

Lost_.mp4The Muppet Movie (1979)_ 13_40 - 14_15 (1080p).mp4

 

In my own way, I understand where John Butler is coming from .. as I have a deep love for humanity.

It's PEOPLE I can't stand.

 

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10 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

I HAVE BEEN THERE AND DONE ALL THAT.  It's hype. They are conditioned to 'like the programme'. We were all expected to applaud. 

Honestly, John, I don't know why you act as though I am your adversary. Have I not stated that they wet themselves at the thought an elder may glower at them?

I will go further to confess what I have never confessed before. Our BOE used to rent a prison bus to round up the publishers and make them go to the convention. They made me drive. I didn't want to, but they made me. Also, when they told me I had to drive, they made me applaud their words until I thought my hands would fall off. 

They publishers didn't want to go. None of them did. They used to hide in the bushes when they saw me pulling up in the prison bus. But the elders had ordered me to stuff them in nice clothes by force when necessary. Oh, how my conscience torments me not. I hate them I hate them I hate them

10 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

That kids are ordered to answer up in Watchtower studies and made to pre-study for hours and write down long answers, which in truth they don't even understand. They just answer parrot fashion. 

That's nothing! I have seen children actually confined in oversized parrot cages until they finished studying their lessons, at which time, if they were lucky, they might be fed a cracker.

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13 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

That's nothing! I have seen children actually confined in oversized parrot cages until they finished studying their lessons, at which time, if they were lucky, they might be fed a cracker.

I used to place a LOT of Watchtower and Awake! Magazines with: 

" And you know, they are the PERFECT size to line the bottom of your bird cage .... be sure you read them BEFORE you give them to your bird!"

Alien Song I will survive.mp4

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8 hours ago, Paul Dedee said:

Jesus experience is documented in scripture. Is yours?

..very funny but a little silly to ask such.  If John Butler in his trying to imitate Jesus sometimes compare own acts with that of Jesus, what is bad in that? Many christian people doing the same, even JW members doing the same on global scale (Conventions for example)

If some JW or fading JW or exJW came to this or that conclusions (wrong, right, questionable, too intensive) on some issues, that is quite normal for every human. The day will come when person maybe change his thoughts in some other direction. 

I ask my self sometimes also, Why i participate in discussions like this one on this forum. I will never come back to JWorg so why i have to or need to involved myself in this. Maybe 40+ years in this religion is reason. Or i need more time to cut all mental and emotional  connections, nexus and memories. Must be a process. Something else, perhaps my profile make me to act in this manner. World is bigger than me and bigger than WT. Life is around us and will be without me and without WTJWorg too.

I hope i will lose interest on JW subject and get some life that is somewhere here, but i have to find this space/time dimension :))))))))) and Shuttle rocket. What you think, is there hope for me? :))))) 

     

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1 hour ago, Srecko Sostar said:

..very funny but a little silly to ask such.  If John Butler in his trying to imitate Jesus sometimes compare own acts with that of Jesus, what is bad in that? Many christian people doing the same, even JW members doing the same on global scale (Conventions for example)

If some JW or fading JW or exJW came to this or that conclusions (wrong, right, questionable, too intensive) on some issues, that is quite normal for every human. The day will come when person maybe change his thoughts in some other direction. 

I ask my self sometimes also, Why i participate in discussions like this one on this forum. I will never come back to JWorg so why i have to or need to involved myself in this. Maybe 40+ years in this religion is reason. Or i need more time to cut all mental and emotional  connections, nexus and memories. Must be a process. Something else, perhaps my profile make me to act in this manner. World is bigger than me and bigger than WT. Life is around us and will be without me and without WTJWorg too.

I hope i will lose interest on JW subject and get some life that is somewhere here, but i have to find this space/time dimension :))))))))) and Shuttle rocket. What you think, is there hope for me? :))))) 

     

Srecko, never say never. Do not shut any doors and do not burn any bridges. Just imagine if the JW Org did get cleaned up by God. Imagine that God removed the GB for misconduct. Imagine that  God removed all the wicked Elders and replaced the GB and the bad Elders with honest hearted ones. You and i could return to the Org with a clear conscience. And with God's mercy and guidance of his holy spirit, we may even make it through Armageddon. Never give up hope Strecko. No one knows who will live or die. 

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4 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Honestly, John, I don't know why you act as though I am your adversary. Have I not stated that they wet themselves at the thought an elder may glower at them?

I will go further to confess what I have never confessed before. Our BOE used to rent a prison bus to round up the publishers and make them go to the convention. They made me drive. I didn't want to, but they made me. Also, when they told me I had to drive, they made me applaud their words until I thought my hands would fall off. 

They publishers didn't want to go. None of them did. They used to hide in the bushes when they saw me pulling up in the prison bus. But the elders had ordered me to stuff them in nice clothes by force when necessary. Oh, how my conscience torments me not. I hate them I hate them I hate them

That's nothing! I have seen children actually confined in oversized parrot cages until they finished studying their lessons, at which time, if they were lucky, they might be fed a cracker.

Mr Tom you are a comedian through and through. But of course you do it to undermine the points i make.

Turn something serious into a joke and some people may just follow you and dismiss my comments as not important.

Well I'm not affected by it as I am pleased with myself for making things known.

What people do with true information is up to them. 

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11 hours ago, Paul Dedee said:

Then you can understand what nonsense is. In all fairness, that can be ascertained by an opposing view. As for Jesus being offensive, he was a perfect man and a symbol for the truth, whereas you are not. So, there is no comparison to the behavior you are applying for the truth as you see it. Jesus experience is documented in scripture. Is yours?

But, it seems that’s where the line is drawn with some people when insults without provocation lead them to automatically assume right (truth) is on their side.

Perhaps you can be civil with your response, and not show hatred upon your fellow man just because there is no redemption through them. The owner is correct to suggest, people like yourself should move on, and find a religion you can accept to worship God and Christ the correct way. None of the arguments posted are noteworthy in Christian life, and I believe that is a road you seek.

I think you deliberately misquote or miss the point of my comments.

The point wasn't that Jesus 'was' offensive. The point was that the Pharisees didn't like the truth from Jesus, so the Pharisees found the truth from Jesus to be offensive.

However Paul, keep on keeping on as you seem to enjoy it. 

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A little ‘gem’ from this week’s Bible reading:

John 11:21 “Martha then said to Jesus: “Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died. Yet even now I know that whatever you ask God for, God will give you.”

Jesus had had two days advance notice, yet he just sat there. (vs 6) Martha did not have to respond as she did. Could she not have ‘gone apostate’ and yelled: ‘What in the world is wrong with you?! You might as well have killed him yourself!’

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Huh! Here is another one. Where have we seen the parallel of this before?

45 Therefore, many of the Jews who had come to Mary and who saw what he did [raised Lazarus from the dead] put faith in him,  46 but some of them went off to the Pharisees and told them what Jesus had done.  47 So the chief priests and the Pharisees gathered the Sanʹhe·drin together and said: “What are we to do, for this man performs many signs?  48 If we let him go on this way, they will all put faith in him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place and our nation.”  49 But one of them, Caʹia·phas, who was high priest that year, said to them: “You do not know anything at all,  50 and you have not reasoned that it is to your benefit for one man to die in behalf of the people rather than for the whole nation to be destroyed.”  51 He did not say this, however, of his own originality, but because he was high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus was to die for the nation,  52 and not only for the nation but also to gather together into one the children of God who were scattered about.  

He was going to kill Jesus himself so as to protect his own career! So he tries to pre-spin it as some holy event!

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 Who cares what "john butler" does or says?  I cannot stand a cry baby.   All of his beesmerching of people who really Try to live according to the Bible and do the right thing, just insults the Faithful.  This especially insults the faithful who have been imprisoned and faced yes, even death to adhere to their faith.  

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