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Jehovah’s Witnesses have always claimed with absolute certainty that Armageddon is just a few years away. 140 some years later, it still hasn’t happened. What makes them think it’ll still happen?

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1 hour ago, The Librarian said:

Question sent in for me to post.

Agape!

 

When  i started studying, all those years ago, I was taught that each Creative day was 7,000 years long. And that God's 'rest day' would also be 7,000 years. The teaching being that humans would live for 6,000 years then Armageddon would come. Then the 1,000 year reign of Christ, then he would hand back everything to Jehovah. 

I think the end of the 6,000 years was 1975. but of course, no Armageddon. 

It seems now the teaching is that they have no idea how long a Creative Day was. It would seem logical then that they have no idea when Armageddon will come. But they have to keep frightening people to keep them in the JW Org. 

( So did God tell the 'Faithful Slave' lies then ? Or were they just telling the congregants lies ?) 

Even though I've left the Org i still believe Judgement Day will happen, as it's part of God's word.. The world is in so much mess and governments want to keep it that way. War is big business and keeps people in employment and under control. Immorality has sunken so much lower and in greater quantity. Over population, racism, hunger, floods, earthquakes, and so much more. And scientists crying about the end of this earth's life because of pollution, climate change, etc. Only God can bring things back to perfection. But no one has any idea when. 

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On 9/30/2018 at 9:18 PM, JOHN BUTLER said:

When  i started studying, all those years ago, I was taught that each Creative day was 7,000 years long. And that God's 'rest day' would also be 7,000 years.

Yes, this was idea for some time. After they wrote how specific Hebrew word "yom" can mean undefined, unknown period of time that can last more then 7000 years. I think in Creation book  was (blue book) first time talking about this "new" teaching.

But despite to this revelation about "yom" in Genesis book, WT still standing in interpretation how Adam and Eve as first human on Earth come to existence before only 6000 years ... and few years more (if we count from 1975 till today). 

In this we can see some disharmony, about this two Bible reports, in WT explanations and interpretations about when first human came to existence and how old is Earth, Solar system, Universe. 

Science said one thing and WT something different or not incorporate scientific knowledge and information's in religious teaching of the JW Church.

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History and science agree about cataclysmic events that was in the past of Earth and how that affect all living creatures. By that various evidences that is visible in scientific research in many fields,  we can expect, soon or later, the same or similar changes in life of Earth and all forms of life. 

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33 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Yes, this was idea for some time. After they wrote how specific Hebrew word "yom" can mean undefined, unknown period of time that can last more then 7000 years. I think in Creation book  was (blue book) first time talking about this "new" teaching.

But despite to this revelation about "yom" in Genesis book, WT still standing in interpretation how Adam and Eve as first human on Earth come to existence before only 6000 years ... and few years more (if we count from 1975 till today). 

In this we can see some disharmony, about this two Bible reports, in WT explanations and interpretations about when first human came to existence and how old is Earth, Solar system, Universe. 

Science said one thing and WT something different or not incorporate scientific knowledge and information's in religious teaching of the JW Church.

Yes, my point was that if the Governing Body have always been the 'faithful and discreet slave' why would God have given them the wrong information ? 

And, if the GB have been proven wrong on such issues, how can anyone trust them now and in the future ? 

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On 9/30/2018 at 1:28 PM, The Librarian said:

Question sent in for me to post.

Agape!

 

Granted that the day of God Judgement is unknown, people, even JWs, take into account in what Bible says that the end is near and even the disc-poles and all slaves of the Christ who serve the Father of Jesus, also know that the day is near.

For us today, we know the day is coming, but we have to be vigilant and enduring, maintaining our faith, hold to salvation, for we do not want to be locked out when the groom shows up, as the Bible says, and we would want to know what God's Law entail and not be recognized by the one who God sent, so to speak.

So it is our duty as Christians to be aware and ready for trying times are upon us and the Tribulation End Times will soon begin and during that time no one would speak of the gospel or the Messianic Age, you can see such ones but they will preach to you for the separating of the sheep and goats is in effect.

This is why a lot of us, myself included remains in total neutrality, careful not to call out others as false, correcting actual truths to falsehood and so to speak, anyone applying the teachings of the church I remain neutral with because a slight mistake can land one for judgement, something I and many others who adhere to the Bible do not want, but some people are lollygagging, not knowing they put themselves in danger and in God's anger, and that is the price such ones will pay, alongside with the wicked.

For if one does know know his Bible and remains ignorant to the truth, even when someone tells him the truth, that ignorant person will be another person in line for the Lake of Fire and succumb to the second death.

As for it still happening there are many things, for instance, the Religion(s) of Babylon who are in total unity.

The E.I.I is seeking a peaceful conquest while the higher ups in the UN is seeking total security and their hands on lands not of their own, while opposing forces speak against them.

And we know what the Bible says on peace and security.

Therefore we must be vigilant, enduring, maintain of faith, hold true to scripture and know our Bible, ignore those who claim they read the Bible but do not apply, those who add to the Word by means of opinion and emotion thus adhering to the accursed, avoid the Trinity, avoid brazen conduct, etc.

While doing so, we must read and learn everyday, take in knowledge of God, and of his Son, Jesus, of the Kingdom, the trial and error of the disciples and followers of the Christ, read and teach the Word accurately, do not give in to spurious text or Traditions of Men regarding understanding and so forth, for in doing so, God and his Christ dwells in us, and we, become one with not just the Christ, but of God also.

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27 minutes ago, Gone Away said:

God does not give wrong information. Nobody disputes this surely?

Exactly. So if the Governing Body of the JW Org are what they say they are (the faithful and discreet slave) then why do they give false information to the congregation ? 

Surely that is deliberate sin.

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13 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Surely that is deliberate sin

Not if they believe what they say. Getting something wrong is not a sin as such. Everybody makes mistakes. I have never subscribed to a GB inspired club.

Armageddon will always be a few years/months (etc) off until it comes. The important thing is to keep in expectation of it, which (for me) means "get your priorities right".  One old brother said to me many years ago "your armageddon came the day you dedicated your life to Jehovah". I found that a very useful viewpoint and consequently (since then), I have avoided "end-time frothing" . By "end-time frothing", I mean emotional debate about the end being near, taking too long, not coming as expected, being falsely predicted, not coming at all....etc.etc.etc.

The whole point of the excercise for me is to live now as we will live once it has come so that it doesn't come as a shock when this old world's structure is no more. Of course that includes making use of the world as it is now, but not to the full. 

Armageddon will only be an account, not an experience, for the majority of humans in the future. So it's significance is not human-centric.

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4 hours ago, Gone Away said:

Not if they believe what they say. Getting something wrong is not a sin as such. Everybody makes mistakes. I have never subscribed to a GB inspired club.

Armageddon will always be a few years/months (etc) off until it comes. The important thing is to keep in expectation of it, which (for me) means "get your priorities right".  One old brother said to me many years ago "your armageddon came the day you dedicated your life to Jehovah". I found that a very useful viewpoint and consequently (since then), I have avoided "end-time frothing" . By "end-time frothing", I mean emotional debate about the end being near, taking too long, not coming as expected, being falsely predicted, not coming at all....etc.etc.etc.

The whole point of the excercise for me is to live now as we will live once it has come so that it doesn't come as a shock when this old world's structure is no more. Of course that includes making use of the world as it is now, but not to the full. 

Armageddon will only be an account, not an experience, for the majority of humans in the future. So it's significance is not human-centric.

So are you saying the GB are not inspired by God or Jesus Christ when they make predictions ? 

Again, are you saying that the GB are not inspired at all ? 

Are you in effect saying the GB are not the 'faithful and discreet slave' ? 

I did like the way you slipped in the bit about "...being falsely predicted.."

Um, who actually did the false predicting ?

Was it perchance the Governing Body of the JW Org and/or the Bible students before them ? 

And your bit about : "The whole point of the exercise for me is to live now as we will live once it has come... "

Wouldn't it be lovely if the whole earthwide congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses did that. 

 

 

 

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20 hours ago, Gone Away said:

God does not give wrong information

People who believe in god and to god can stand on this quote you gave, for sure.

Now, because in every religious system on Earth, exist people, leadership who run god's Heavenly job, work or business here on Earth and in that process of governing they giving information about what god want human (member of one religion) to do, I ask;

WHO giving information?? 

WHO giving right information??  

WHO giving wrong information??

WHO ... in this one and same religion??

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7 hours ago, Gone Away said:
20 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Surely that is deliberate sin

Not if they believe what they say. Getting something wrong is not a sin as such. 

Dear Gone Away, i think how this same Bible you have in your hand can and will defeat this sort of thinking. :)) 

Do one making some act/deed that can be characterized as wrong or bad or evil, and nevertheless if such was done  deliberately or by mistake.... it is a sin in religious, Bible way of interpretation on this subject, as many bible scholars and teachers explained. 

If i believe that GB is not FDS and not god's servant and representative here on Earth (but you believe they are) then, as You gave reasoning, I am not deliberately sinning and not made sin, because I BELIEVE IN WHAT I SAY I BELIEVE :)))))   I JUST GETTING SOMETHING WRONG, THAT IS  ALL :))))  

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7 hours ago, Gone Away said:

One old brother said to me many years ago "your armageddon came the day you dedicated your life to Jehovah".

Something not seems right, good and healthy in such way of thinking, to me of course.

Dedication to god, even in JWorg world, must be the happiest and most important day of your life, because you choose LIFE in Jesus and his father. YOU CHOOSE LIFE ...... NOT Armageddon, ......because Armageddon  is  destruction and death.

7 hours ago, Gone Away said:

The whole point of the excercise for me is to live now as we will live once it has come so that it doesn't come as a shock when this old world's structure is no more.

Perhaps that can be good in some sort of circumstances or when your days of calamity come on you, not because of Armageddon has come, but because of worldly events and unknown reasons, because something bad just happened in your place of living.

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3 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

because Armageddon  is  destruction and death.

Here lies an underlying feature of this mindset it appears. I do not share this perception of Armageddon that you have. For me, I survived my personal armageddon. This was a day of regeneration with a prospect of life. I can see you have a different perception, whether learned or originated. The big Armageddon for me is also a day of regeneration and of life. For you, I see, it is different.

For me this fits with Paul's words at 2Cor.2:15-16 "For to God we are a sweet odor of Christ among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing; to the latter ones an odor issuing from death to death, to the former ones an odor issuing from life to life."

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3 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Perhaps that can be good in some sort of circumstances or when your days of calamity come on you, not because of Armageddon has come, but because of worldly events and unknown reasons, because something bad just happened in your place of living.

I'm trying to follow your logic here, but with difficulty. We just don't speak the same language (figuratively). You seem to be implying that  some sort of bad events other than Armageddon might prove my outlook of value?

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4 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

You gave reasoning, I am not deliberately sinning and not made sin  because I BELIEVE IN WHAT I SAY I BELIEVE :)))))   I JUST GETTING SOMETHING WRONG, THAT IS  ALL :))))  

Well, how to make a dog's breakfast out of a basic statement???

Let's untangle this. Let's speak about you. As you have used the personal pronoun "I", "you" features in my response. 

If "you" say something wrong unintentionally, thinking sincerely "you" are right, then this means "you" are not deliberately sinning. It means "you" have made a mistake, misunderstood a matter, made a decision with insufficient or incorrect data etc.

Your point here: "You gave reasoning, I am not deliberately sinning and not made sin" is a distortion of what I said. A statement was made by @John Butler proposing that if the GB endorse something which later is found to be incorrect, this must be deliberate sinning. My response was that this is not sinning as such (deliberate) but is more correctly termed and evaluated as a mistake as described above. A mistake of this type can certainly be termed a"sin" in the sense that it "misses the mark" of truth. But it is not deliberate.

I will not go to such lengths to untangle reasoning of this type in the future, so, respectfully, I request that you give a little more thought to your reponses. ?

 

 

 

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6 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

So are you saying the GB are not inspired by God or Jesus Christ when they make predictions ? 

Again, are you saying that the GB are not inspired at all ? 

The last person who was inspired by God or Jesus was the apostle John, on the isle of Patmos, when he wrote Revelation. 

 

 

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16 hours ago, Anna said:

The last person who was inspired by God or Jesus was the apostle John, on the isle of Patmos, when he wrote Revelation. 

 

 

Was he last or not no one knows for sure. But You believe he was last. And i respect your belief.... even with :) symbol

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18 hours ago, Anna said:

The last person who was inspired by God or Jesus was the apostle John, on the isle of Patmos, when he wrote Revelation. 

 

 

Was John not inspired at Ephesus when he wrote his other writings then, two years later  (1,2,3, John)   ? :) 

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19 hours ago, Gone Away said:

Here lies an underlying feature of this mindset it appears. I do not share this perception of Armageddon that you have. For me, I survived my personal armageddon. This was a day of regeneration with a prospect of life. I can see you have a different perception, whether learned or originated. The big Armageddon for me is also a day of regeneration and of life. For you, I see, it is different.

For me this fits with Paul's words at 2Cor.2:15-16 "For to God we are a sweet odor of Christ among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing; to the latter ones an odor issuing from death to death, to the former ones an odor issuing from life to life."

odor...preaching....one issue.

Armageddon, as bible scholars explaining is The Day of JHVH.

  Seek Jehovah . . . Seek righteousness, seek meekness. Probably you may be concealed in the day of Jehovah’s anger.”—ZEPHANIAH 2:3.

Look! The day of Jehovah is coming, Cruel both with fury and with burning anger, To make the land an object of horror,+ And to annihilate the land’s sinners from it.- Is 13:9

Woe to those who yearn for the day of Jehovah!+ What, then, will the day of Jehovah mean for you?+ It will be darkness, and not light - Amos 5:18

If you want to enjoy in the day of Armageddon, let it be your's. :)) Mindset... hahahaha

Do you like WT publications with scene of Armageddon? What looks regenerate in them? And what prospect of life is in it? You have faith of surviving, good for you, but no one promise this outcome to You, not even JHVH.

 

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19 hours ago, Gone Away said:

If "you" say something wrong unintentionally, thinking sincerely "you" are right, then this means "you" are not deliberately sinning. It means "you" have made a mistake, misunderstood a matter, made a decision with insufficient or incorrect data etc.

No problem with your explanation and human characteristic . Point is other thing - Deliberately or not, SIN IS SIN. That is all what is about in what i have to say about Bible viewpoint and what most or some religious people believe about human deeds and sin.

If people decide that deliberately sinning must be punished with this and that punishment, they will do it.

If people decide that unintentional, mistaken sin must not be punished but to forgive, they will do it.

:))))))) 

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19 hours ago, Gone Away said:

Well, how to make a dog's breakfast out of a basic statement???

Let's untangle this. Let's speak about you. As you have used the personal pronoun "I", "you" features in my response. 

If "you" say something wrong unintentionally, thinking sincerely "you" are right, then this means "you" are not deliberately sinning. It means "you" have made a mistake, misunderstood a matter, made a decision with insufficient or incorrect data etc.

Your point here: "You gave reasoning, I am not deliberately sinning and not made sin" is a distortion of what I said. A statement was made by @John Butler proposing that if the GB endorse something which later is found to be incorrect, this must be deliberate sinning. My response was that this is not sinning as such (deliberate) but is more correctly termed and evaluated as a mistake as described above. A mistake of this type can certainly be termed a"sin" in the sense that it "misses the mark" of truth. But it is not deliberate.

I will not go to such lengths to untangle reasoning of this type in the future, so, respectfully, I request that you give a little more thought to your reponses. ?

 

 

 

My point was of course that if the Governing Body promote as 'fact' that they are the 'Faithful and discreet slave' therefore exalting themselves,  and then give false information (bad food) concerning the will of God, then they are deliberately sinning...  

“Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics, to give them their food at the proper time?  Matthew 24 v 45.

But another point has just appeared to me. The above scripture is from Matthew. The below scripture is from Luke. Do you notice a difference ?

 And the Lord said: “Who really is the faithful steward, the discreet one, whom his master will appoint over his body of attendants to keep giving them their measure of food supplies at the proper time?    Luke 12 v 42.

The Matthew scripture is past tense, the Luke scripture is future tense. 

But my original point on this issue was that the GB make it known as 'fact' that they have this responsibility, and only those 8 men, no one else. But they prove themselves false because the 'food' they supply in not true food.

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19 hours ago, Gone Away said:

I will not go to such lengths to untangle reasoning of this type in the future, so, respectfully, I request that you give a little more thought to your reponses. ?

I am like Moses, man of few words, not know how to talking. Even in my Croatian language i spending day in less talking than other people. In English i have problem with grammar and structuring Croatian way of sentences to English way. ;)))

So, please accept my  apologize for that. This is me, ....you can kill me but this is me :)))))

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1 minute ago, Srecko Sostar said:

I am like Moses, man of few words, not know how to talking. Even in my Croatian language i spending day in less talking than other people. In English i have problem with grammar and structuring Croatian way of sentences to English way. ;)))

So, please accept my  apologize for that. This is me, ....you can kill me but this is me :)))))

You do ok. Do not worry about those that have no fellow feeling. Some of us show love, some don't. 

I'm English and all I can speak and write is English, so you are doing better than me. 

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15 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Deliberately or not, SIN IS SIN.

1John 5:17:"All unrighteousness is sin, and yet there is a sin that does not incur death."

34 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

You have faith of surviving, good for you, but no one promise this outcome to You, not even JHVH.

Sorry, you are not in a position to tell me what Jehovah has or has not promised me.

35 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

If you want to enjoy in the day of Armageddon, let it be your's. :)) Mindset... hahahaha

That is what I mean. You have your odor, I have mine....

 

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24 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

My point was of course that if the Governing Body promote as 'fact' that they are the 'Faithful and discreet slave' therefore exalting themselves,  and then give false information (bad food) concerning the will of God, then they are deliberately sinning...  

"My sheep know me.........."

"They will by no means follow a stranger but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers.”

Should be self-explantory.

Got to go for now.  ?
 

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41 minutes ago, Gone Away said:

"My sheep know me.........."

"They will by no means follow a stranger but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers.”

Should be self-explantory.

Got to go for now.  ?
 

You talk in riddles, well rubbish actually. 

I'm talking about the GB of the JW Org, you are quoting Jesus' words. There is no connection.

 

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The Librarian

Jehovah’s Witnesses have always claimed with absolute certainty that Armageddon is just a few years away. 140 some years later, it still hasnÂ’t happened. What makes them think itÂ’ll still happen?

 

DidnÂ’t the Red Sox win the championship in time?

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2 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

You talk in riddles, well rubbish actually. 

I'm talking about the GB of the JW Org, you are quoting Jesus' words. There is no connection.

If you can't see it then................. you can't see it. Jesus' words don't always make sense to everyone actually.

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25 minutes ago, Gone Away said:

If you can't see it then................. you can't see it. Jesus' words don't always make sense to everyone actually.

You are a joker. If you think you can apply Jesus' words to the GB then you too deliberately sin by going 'beyond the things written'. . 

My goodness how the JW Org corrupts some people.  I would laugh about it but it is such an insult to Jehovah and Jesus Christ. 

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1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

You are a joker. If you think you can apply Jesus' words to the GB

You think that's what I am doing??? You have missed a turning somewhere there. I think the joke has to be on you if that's the case!

Anyway, I know you are hurting over something, so I'm not going to add to it by pursuing this silly GB bashing road any further. Sorry to have indulged so far. ?

Getting back on thread, the question was something about JWs being certain that Armageddon is only a few years away for 140 years. What makes them think it’ll still happen?

All I can think of (at the mo) is Habbakuk 2:3: "For [the] vision is yet for the appointed time, and it keeps panting on to the end, and it will not tell a lie. Even if it should delay, keep in expectation of it; for it will without fail come true. It will not be late."

 

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On 10/2/2018 at 4:21 PM, JOHN BUTLER said:

Exactly. So if the Governing Body of the JW Org are what they say they are (the faithful and discreet slave) then why do they give false information to the congregation ? 

Surely that is deliberate sin.

If that was the case, and if such is a sin for man is indeed imperfect, we should also be holding accountable Prophet Eli because he called Samuel's mother a drunk, not realizing moments later she was praying to God when she explained herself to Eli, who was clearly dumbfounded. He is a Prophet of God so surely he has made mistakes, as is with Samuel who was avoiding death at the hands of Saul, father of Johnathan, predecessor of King David, Son of Jesse.

As for pastors of the church today, they are all imperfect, so minor mistakes can be made, I can say the same thing of us Biblical Unitarians.

As for the other bit, they are not inspired, whatsoever, no Restorationist Christian in their historical existence ever claimed to be inspired. Unless you want to bring proof to claim, of which has already been debunked before when Christian history has been spoken.

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13 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Was he last or not no one knows for sure. But You believe he was last. And i respect your belief.... even with :) symbol

That is why it is best to study about Apostle John... If you can't even get this down, the basics at least, how can you profess the Word when you do not know the Word and rely on emotion and opinions in a convoluted sense and mingle it with Scripture?

I do not know if what you say, I respect your belief, is false or genuine, God our Father knows, granted with what you have been saying here and elsewhere, it is not wise to kid yourself when you reveal yourself.

 

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8 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

My point was of course that if the Governing Body promote as 'fact' that they are the 'Faithful and discreet slave' therefore exalting themselves,  and then give false information (bad food) concerning the will of God, then they are deliberately sinning...  

“Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics, to give them their food at the proper time?  Matthew 24 v 45.

But another point has just appeared to me. The above scripture is from Matthew. The below scripture is from Luke. Do you notice a difference ?

 And the Lord said: “Who really is the faithful steward, the discreet one, whom his master will appoint over his body of attendants to keep giving them their measure of food supplies at the proper time?    Luke 12 v 42.

The Matthew scripture is past tense, the Luke scripture is future tense. 

But my original point on this issue was that the GB make it known as 'fact' that they have this responsibility, and only those 8 men, no one else. But they prove themselves false because the 'food' they supply in not true food.

The difference is that these 2 verses are parallel from each other, for if you actually studied the gospels, this would not be of a surprise, granted both Matthew and Luke, were eye witnesses of Jesus' ministry.

As for the next bit, paste tense, future tense, but why not take in the context of the verse, that is like making and eating a sandwich, but there is only beard and nothing in the sandwich itself.

In the Greek language, the word, which is a noun, oikonomos οἰκονόμος [Steward] (Strong's 3623) refers to the manager of the household, a person placed over servants, though he himself is a servant and or a slave like those in his circle. In ancient times, this steward/slave position  was often filled by a faithful servants, who they themselves were placed in charge of his master’s business and actions, and or affairs. It was a position of great loyalty and complete trust between the persons. Regarding the household servants, which applies to all individuals who work in the master’s household, you have this Greek Word oiketeias οἰκετείας (Strong's 3610a)

In the Bible, the Scriptures contain examples of a single noun regarding a collection of persons and or group, we have biblical examples too, for when God Yahweh, the only and only true El Shaddai, addressed the nation of Israel as a group, in plural form.

 for instance, Isaiah 43:10. That being said, when taking in context we can see that this verse, Luke 12:42 is a complete parallel of Matthew 24:45, this steward, or slave, is called the faithful and  and is called discreet.

Now we have the word discreet (sensible in some translations), for in the Greek language it is an adjective, phronimos φρόνιμος [discreet/sensible] (Strong's 5429) for in it's use in the verse found in the gospel of Luke it conveys the idea of understanding in association such as insight, discernment, prudence, etc. This same Greek word is also used, by Luke, in Luke 16:8, and the rendering is ever so obvious, and it does not stop there either.

Now with this context in mind, the Jehovah's Witnesses, the leading pastors of this faith refers to themselves as the Governing Body, they also refer to themselves as the faithful and discreet slaves, and this term, found in those 2 verses you provided, fits the bill for them, for they are of a sole Christian community - The Jehovah's Witnesses, and they are a body of 8 persons who are stewards, servants and or slaves of the house, their faith community and so forth. It is only these 8 few because they are the ones who are leading the faith, as well as referring to themselves as the chosen ones of the Priesthood, which, to Jehovah's Witnesses mean Anointed Ones, and a term I normally use regarding the church, Church Fathers, just as Eusebius and the others were of such, centuries ago.

With all that said, the only thing that is inspired is the Scriptures.

5 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

You are a joker. If you think you can apply Jesus' words to the GB then you too deliberately sin by going 'beyond the things written'. . 

My goodness how the JW Org corrupts some people.  I would laugh about it but it is such an insult to Jehovah and Jesus Christ. 

He isn't joking he is professing his belief, as well as speaking of what the Bible says, for, even if he was not a JW, what is said is in harmony with the scriptures regarding those who lead in the early Christian church.

You'd laugh? But last time you yourself have stated religious leadership is of Pharisees when God is the head of the Christ and the Christ is the head of the church, of which the church is structure is of God's Order, and the church receives instruction from the Christ himself, hence the early Church and onward.

For what he said is in the right, it is only viewed as wrong because you show yourself to have a disdain for Jehovah's Witnesses, for @Gone Away is most likely one. For anything regarding the stewards who are sensible, it is the same as is in the Scriptures. this paste/future tense will not cut it for you if you do not apply context from very little elementary biblical hermeneutics.

For a former JW, you've gone down hill if you missed that point.

 

Also the Greek text isn't.... Rubbish...

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On 10/3/2018 at 5:48 PM, Anna said:

The last person who was inspired by God or Jesus was the apostle John, on the isle of Patmos, when he wrote Revelation. 

Well, you can't expect much from a guy who believes a woman named Chloe lead the church of Corinth.If he believes that, there isn't much information you can get from him regarding Apostle John.

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3 hours ago, Gone Away said:

You think that's what I am doing??? You have missed a turning somewhere there. I think the joke has to be on you if that's the case!

Anyway, I know you are hurting over something, so I'm not going to add to it by pursuing this silly GB bashing road any further. Sorry to have indulged so far. ?

Getting back on thread, the question was something about JWs being certain that Armageddon is only a few years away for 140 years. What makes them think it’ll still happen?

All I can think of (at the mo) is Habbakuk 2:3: "For [the] vision is yet for the appointed time, and it keeps panting on to the end, and it will not tell a lie. Even if it should delay, keep in expectation of it; for it will without fail come true. It will not be late."

Pretty much, in a simple sense: To endure to the end. To be vigilant until the end. To maintain faith/salvation to the end, for you do not know when the Master is coming, you do not know when God's day is coming, so you have to always be ready when it does happen, as you live and breathe.

Simple stuff like this if someone does not get, they haven't been reading their Bible as much. The one of God who is coming, as they also forget, will be coming with a sword, surely they know that Jesus is not just a high priest, not just a King or Christ, or even the Son of God. Our Lord, Christ Jesus is a Mighty Warrior, I don't see how that one spilled by regarding the masses, but they have to realize this is in an accurate and literal sense of what is, as they say in the streets, is about to go down.

Here's a reference for that verse, also in the Hebrew Old Testament:

 

  • Micah 7:7 - But as for me, I will look to the LORD [YHWH]; I will wait for the God of my salvation; my God will hear me.

Meaning to keep on the lookout for God Yahweh, have a patient, waiting position for God to hand out salvation, and God hears those who calls for him, be it of the rich, the poor, white, black, male, female, etc. He hears all who is for him, he hears those who call for him, he is on the side of those who listen to him and his son, Jesus.

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13 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Was John not inspired at Ephesus when he wrote his other writings then, two years later (1,2,3, John) ? :) 

Yes, I did think about that too. But it was still John, as the last of the apostles, who was inspired :). So no, the GB are not inspired obviously.

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13 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

I do not know if what you say, I respect your belief, is false or genuine,

Thanks to heaven, people  have no  power to read other people mind and motives.  

But, thanks to heaven too, other people have power to be suspicious about other people words. Also to be stubborn and persistent in that. 

:))))

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12 hours ago, Space Merchant said:
On 10/3/2018 at 11:48 PM, Anna said:

The last person who was inspired by God or Jesus was the apostle John, on the isle of Patmos, when he wrote Revelation. 

... dear Anna, if you open NWT Bible on page 1578 and 1579 (in Croatian edition 2006) authors of translation quoted how John (apostle) wrote 1,2 and 3 John in a year cca 98.

So, book of Revelation is the book that placed on last position of Bible, but last written was those 3 letters, not Revelation, according to WT.

That is what John Butler noticed about comment you gave. And that is just that. Nothing more. Not John Butler not me made up things about this issue. We just read NWT Bible and check information about "last" inspired words that found its place in Bible books.

By the way does anyone know what was the name of that Catholic Roman Pope who ccollected  "inspired" books and letters and then decide what one of all will be part of Bible - Catholic Bible of course. Later came Protestant Bible. And later came NWT Bible. And in the middle there is many other Bibles too.       

:))

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5 minutes ago, AllenSmith34 said:

Keep in mind the Watchtower is NOW! Enforcing their copyright material, and this website has been added to that list of violating copyright material. Since this site is far from being academic, and laughable to think so, STOP! Infringing on copyright material.

The Watchtower will also prevent their copyright material to be archived on other websites that are NOT their own. Good luck!

Well said Allen!

And what to think about "water of truth", for free, without no charge, to buy without money and without so called "copyrights", that Jesus promised to all, and that have to be available for all, for people to be able to get everlasting life ::)))

What a funny reality, what a parody, what a shame to trade with "The Truth". And all in the name of Law, Secular, Worldly Law.

But when Secular Law said give us documents about this and that, then WT said, we must obey god more then you :))))))))

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35 minutes ago, AllenSmith34 said:

What makes you think the wheels are not turning only because it’s not satisfactory to your own perceived timeline? God’s timeline cannot be questioned by mere mortals. That doesn’t mean a lot hasn’t happened since 1914.

 

Former witnesses that NEVER received enlightenment will never understand. So, why ask the question. However, those that scuff at the GB as though their opinion matters receive less enlightenment from the Holy Spirit.

 

Therefore, for nostalgic purposes, PROVE nothing has happened?

 

Keep in mind the Watchtower is NOW! Enforcing their copyright material, and this website has been added to that list of violating copyright material. Since this site is far from being academic, and laughable to think so, STOP! Infringing on copyright material.

 

 

The Watchtower will also prevent their copyright material to be archived on other websites that are NOT their own. Good luck!

 

 

 

 

 

Sounds like you are making threats, and proves the WT are getting to be more a part of the world than ever. 

The GB should give more of it's time to worrying about a more important type of violation, that of children. 

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18 minutes ago, AllenSmith34 said:

No threats. However, I do find the hostility against the GB tantalizing. The Watchtower has proven to show through their articles throughout the decades to show just that Butler. Caring and being responsible for our children. You just refuse to acknowledge the myriad of things published in the magazines. It’s like being tone deaf. However, any time you want to look at the articles, feel free to enter JW.org for honesty and truth.

You are also correct, The GB is there to receive God’s message not a court of law.

But since you continue to insinuate about child abuse, then looking at it by your perspective, WE are all GUILTY, including you Butler, since no one has the ability to read minds like Srecko mentioned. Therefore, it falls own all of us in order for the blame game to be effective.

 

This topic is about Armageddon, will it won't it happen ?  I get moaned at for not keeping on topic. 

Therefore if I reply to your comment I will get shot up by the World News Media police. They seem to love to bully only me in this regard. 

I am actually a 'member' of the JW org web page, with log in details etc. As for it being 'honesty and truth' well that is up to each of us to decide if we believe that.  

I also studied last Sunday's study article in the W/T, which i found amusing. Even though my wife is told by the Elders not to talk to me about spiritual things, as she is not baptised it not for the Elders to decide, so we still converse about such matters. 

Concerning the Child abuse issue, I would love to discuss this but it would probably need to be elsewhere or a new topic. 

As you say, WE are all guilty. That was why I left the Org, so as not to be guilty. But I must leave it there for fear of being shot down. 

 

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8 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Thanks to heaven, people  have no  power to read other people mind and motives.  

But, thanks to heaven too, other people have power to be suspicious about other people words. Also to be stubborn and persistent in that. 

:))))

I say this because of your antics before and the very fact people can point your own words as flawed and or cryptic, for if you truly had respect for people, it would show, rather thank pressing on so an so, perhaps if I link something, you'd be quick to delete it.

Interesting that Mr.Butler agrees when he has not seen what many of us have seen.

Invite you to prove stubbornness, so far you haven't prove your own words before, thus being corrected with something is seen as unfounded, not even close to factual information - remember Chloe?

8 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

... dear Anna, if you open NWT Bible on page 1578 and 1579 (in Croatian edition 2006) authors of translation quoted how John (apostle) wrote 1,2 and 3 John in a year cca 98.

So, book of Revelation is the book that placed on last position of Bible, but last written was those 3 letters, not Revelation, according to WT.

Actually you are missing the point. The original source tells you The Revelation of John and or Apocalypse. It is the last book of the Bible as is in most translations, though not the last written. Another name for it is the Apocalypse of John the Apostle [Apocalypse de Jean l'apôtre].

As for this, Croatian Edition 2006, can you be more specific, granted the language is possibly Croatian - hrvatski? Also regardless of whatever language, this is in fact true with what they say here: 

    Hello guest!

And what we see in Bible History: 

    Hello guest!
 (Go to Canonical History)

Fact: Revelation was the last book accepted into the Christian biblical canon, and to the present day some churches that derive from the Church of the East reject it.

So to say according to the Watchtower only proves your ignorance, when outside of the realm of Watchtower, this same information is professed, so I ask you, are you really looking into the Scriptures or simply, trying to be respectful by not telling the truth?

Surely, Srecko, you can do better than that, but to fool people isn't your strong suit. I've also provided another source for you, so you can correct yourself, granted Mr. Butler agrees with you, he himself can learn more about his Bible. Consider this an education process for the both of you.

The next question is... Do you really not know that according to the Book of Revelations, its author was on the island of Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus, when he was honored with the vision contained in Revelation?

Everyone knows the last 3 were the Epistles, but the last Book of the Bible is what is being spoken of here, regardless of source or translation, everyone knows this and in that last Book, John was inspired to have seen these visions on the island, thus Revelations.

I mean, Revelations 1:9 was a dead giveaway, I mean, sheesh man:

I, John, your brother and partner in the tribulation and the kingdom and the patient endurance that are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos on account of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.

Therefore, I invited, do yourself a favor, and learn more about Apostle John, read it even everything pertaining to this Apostle.

Here is another fact, a brief one: John is the only one who had written the rare conversation Jesus had with a leader of the Jews by the name of Nicodemus. Nicodemus himself played a role in Jesus' burial.

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18 hours ago, Anna said:

Really? What scripture is that in?

In another thread @Srecko Sostar made the claim that a woman named Chloe lead the Church of Corinth, basing his own view on a single verse (1 Corinthians 1:11) using this as legitimate proof that somehow Chloe lead the Church. I even told him to prove it, but he as well as Witness failed when the Biblical Facts were placed in front of them, Witness began the thread and yielded upon his own feelings and opinions, even going as far as to say that someone of has the holy spirit on them was only speaking of an opinion when in reality Paul was referring to God's Order by means of Creation, our first human parents.

The funny thing is how the both of them attempt to defend a Tradition of Men regarding women leadership in a church, one of them even stated, out of disdain of the truth, that I am somehow anti-women for making the W in women lowercase, when I type too fast for my own good to even realize that, and I asked him, prove I am against women, of which he cannot prove, nor can Srecko.

What they fail to see is women as roles in the church as well as men, however, according to God's Order, there are roles that are for men that women cannot do, however both men and women help the church out, furthermore, God's Order also reflects the family structure, such as the husband, the wife, the child, hence the family itself and so forth.

But yes, every time a biblical fact is thrown into their face, they are quick to bring up JWs, when I am talking solely about the Church Structure and how things were before people started to change up things to equal that of Traditions of Men. Next thing you know, Srecko and Witness will probably defend Furries taking religious office in a church.

That being said, Srecko has a habit of deleting things, so I make sure to quote him and make a response so his own word does not vanish, as it has last time. This thread was created by Witness regarding women.

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9 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

dear Anna, if you open NWT Bible on page 1578 and 1579 (in Croatian edition 2006) authors of translation quoted how John (apostle) wrote 1,2 and 3 John in a year cca 98.

So, book of Revelation is the book that placed on last position of Bible, but last written was those 3 letters, not Revelation, according to WT.

That is what John Butler noticed about comment you gave. And that is just that. Nothing more. Not John Butler not me made up things about this issue. We just read NWT Bible and check information about "last" inspired words that found its place in Bible books.

Yes, I know :). I wasn't disputing that.

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Just a couple of points Space Merchant. 

If Hitler had made a comment i thought was true, I would back up the comment, not the man.

If Srecko makes a comment which I agree with I will say that i agree with that comment.. I will judge the comment not the man or woman making it. I will also not go back ten pages to look for other comments they have made. 

I have in fact felt this  "stubborn and persistent"  attitude against me on here, but I'm not moved by it. 

Space Merchant says "But yes, every time a biblical fact is thrown into their face, they are quick to bring up JWs, when I am talking solely about the Church Structure..." 

Um, go to the very top of the page. Read what this site is all about . JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES PUBLIC CLUB.  Then look at the topic heading Jehovah's witnesses ..... Armageddon. What makes THEM  think it will still happen ? It is about the Jehovah's witnesses, not about the Church structure or the early church. 

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7 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

If Hitler had made a comment i thought was true, I would back up the comment, not the man.

And your point? I back up a majority of what I say on here, at times being overly factual. Unless you have something else to say, I am waiting.

7 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

If Srecko makes a comment which I agree with I will say that i agree with that comment.. I will judge the comment not the man or woman making it. I will also not go back ten pages to look for other comments they have made. 

And yet when he judges me you voted it up. I am not a stubborn person, I am, however, very strict and pressing with information, mainly if something spoken of is untrue, in the realm of religion, I will point something out and make it clear from what is true and not true.

For when a truth is spoken, such of which is too much for one to handle, and there is a whole lot of that.

7 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

I have in fact felt this  "stubborn and persistent"  attitude against me on here, but I'm not moved by it. 

Stubbornness and persistence, no. Strict yes, I even told you this the first time I ever made comment to you and to others. If I tell you a truth, an actual truth, you would say something else only to be met with truth, and if anyone has been aware, I always make a response as to where my name is mentioned and if I see something that is not correct, I will make a response.

If Srecko says that God has no problem with men/women physically changing their reproductive system to the opposite sex, of course I will make a response to it - and yes, he did say this before, it caught my eye and I did make the response.

If you believe that someone who speaks truth is stubborn, maybe it would be best to take the time and read Isaiah 28 and see how the leader of Judah responded to Prophet Isaiah, who was not stubborn at all, but very strict on what he says although he kept repeating himself.

You should be moved by what is true and not that of man's understanding, of which the last 2 times, when the truth was sent your way, you seem a bit flustered by it.

As for the strictness, I can get irritated, but this is only towards Trinitarians and anyone who speaks ill of the holy spirit or those who brush over biblical principles that tie in with God's Laws and commandments.

7 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Space Merchant says : "But yes, every time a biblical fact is thrown into their face, they are quick to bring up JWs, when I am talking solely about the Church Structure..." 

This is in fact true, here is the proof of where I posted the Bibical Facts to such ones who attempt to bring up JW every time when the truth of God's Order is presented in their faces, have a look, Mr. Butler:

There are some typos but the response was clear to Srecko, when it comes to facts: Like I told you before, the Jehovah's Witnesses or the Watchtower cannot save you here, and you only proven yourself to be incorrect, granted that anyone even to Theologians know the history of Restorationist.

7 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Um, go to the very top of the page. Read what this site is all about . JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES PUBLIC CLUB.  Then look at the topic heading Jehovah's witnesses ..... Armageddon. What makes THEM  think it will still happen ? It is about the Jehovah's witnesses, not about the Church structure or the early church. 

I know what the topic is about for if it irks you that much you didn't take to task to stop Mr. Srecko now did you? It didn't stop you from going about speaking of inspiration and the other things when, as you put it, the topic is about Armageddon I made my response regarding a specific discussion on this forum, granted what I said was to respond to @Anna to briefly explain the discussion, not to you, of which actually took place.

If it is Armageddon response you seek, it is an Armageddon response you shall have.

Armageddon, spoken of as God's day, his war against the wicked, read in Revelations 16:14, 16 and 19:11-21. It is also in reference to  /meaning Tel [Mount] Megiddo. It is the war of the great day of God, El Shaddai in which the kings and leaders on earth, mainly those who put God's people to task in the worse ways will be getting their dues paid for in full.

As for when it will happen, no one knows for sure, but the Bible tells us it is near and we are to keep on maintain our faith, to be vigilant and so forth, remain steadfast in what is true. We also can't make a claim of it going to happen this year or that year, etc, examples like the whole debacle in 2017 or 2012 where the literal claim of the world will end has been said, proclaimed, movies made, put into video games, etc, even going as far as to get the whole Planet X troop riled up, who they themselves think the earth as a whole would be replaced with another earth, or those who use the Eclipse as an excuse that the world would end. No one knows the day or the hour, but only God knows, the angels, nope, Jesus, nada, no one but Hashem, no one but Jesus' God, my God, your God, the God of each and every one of us here on this forum.

There is no middle ground, you either for life or for death. And the implications and context is as clear as the sky in this sense.

I see the early church as the bread of Christianity, the early Church, they too believed in God's Day and Judgement that will be unleashed unto the wicked for such was spoken on in the Scriptures that they themselves had.

That being said, none of us knows the day or hour, playing the guessing game is of no help either. As for you have mentioned about 1975, that has been debunked for sometime now and the fact that a great deal went about to take down a very credible source on this matter was evident, it only shows who was in the right here, for no JW would be foolish to claim that Armageddon would happen in 1975, if that was the case it would have defeated the purpose of ceasing the gospel and or Great Commission, hence why I took information from the now long gone source and posted it here as legitimate proof.

As for the other thing you mentioned before, Restorationist, as a organized group or a sole individual living in the outskirts of Yemen, none of them never, and ill ever claim to be inspired, it is not in the fabric of their Christology, nor in those who make the attempt to put into application of the early church, thus making any false claim immediately shot down when evidence is in use. If you have people, like Atheists who knows this stuff too, then surely you have a problem trying to make a claim of something that is unfounded, thus making the resolve invalid.

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And yet when he judges me you voted it up. I am not a stubborn person ..... S.M.  I tell you in truth i never even thought he was making a direct comment against you. I just agreed with the comment as a general comment. 

Although i know the answers are given to previous comments, I see the answers as more of a general comment to the whole group. 

And when i said how i felt i was being treated, i did not mean by you personally, I meant generally. . 

As for the rest of your comment here , it is too long for me to concentrate on. 

Sorry S. M.  I am not a puppet for Srecko and i come here as an individual. I do not take sides, I am my own person. 

I comment as I see fit and will continue to do so. 

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2 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

And yet when he judges me you voted it up. I am not a stubborn person ..... S.M.  I tell you in truth i never even thought he was making a direct comment against you. I just agreed with the comment as a general comment. 

Although i know the answers are given to previous comments, I see the answers as more of a general comment to the whole group. 

And when i said how i felt i was being treated, i did not mean by you personally, I meant generally. . 

As for the rest of your comment here , it is too long for me to concentrate on. 

Sorry S. M.  I am not a puppet for Srecko and i come here as an individual. I do not take sides, I am my own person. 

I comment as I see fit and will continue to do so. 

No worries, knowing Srecko, he thinks he can be sneaky with his words, unless he forgot to pay his Bird ISP in bird seeds this month, since he thinks birds provide him internet to even post here.

The comment in question was due to the whole women being religious leaders to which both Srecko Sostar and Witness based their understanding on a Tradition of Men. They tried to through in JW/Watchtower stuff and that didn't even help them either for 2 direct questions posed pretty much is enough to shut them down.

It is people like that that are red flags, and I say to you study the Bible and research because one can easily slip into man's understanding without even knowing.

No worries, no one wants to be a puppet of Srecko, no one is a puppet of him for he is very cryptic in his words, especially what he said about Abraham as if he is the villain, to which he has been corrected on.

You can comment, but do so with something that is true to fact, true to the Bible, true to the Christology of others because if something is not in good light, a response will be made, this is how it is in the CSE community, of which I am from. So if someone is in error of the Bible, even about Islam, I will correct,for this is how I am, and this is how I profess.

My reason for somewhat long posts, as a funny  thing JTR thinks I right books and essays, I type waaaay to fast for me own good, and this began with a discussion I had with a Trinitarian here about Church Fathers, a second time regarding the Holy Spirit.

The guy's name is Cos and he cannot see the forest for it's trees, for one thing I have a disdain for is anyone who professes what is accursed, in this case, the Trinity. Cos showed himself to be the child of the Devil when he made claim to something that the end of the discussion, all that can be said, he never posted in that thread again nor does he address he directly, to make it seem he isn't thing to respond to what I said.

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10 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

If you believe that someone who speaks truth is stubborn,

Yes i believe! In fact i have no need  to just believe. Something about  is written in Bible. Paul was excellent example.

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 4I persecuted this Way even to the death, detaining both men and women and throwing them into prison,…

As such member of Jew community he was very stubborn in self idea how he got the truth and how god's will for him is to speak and prosecute other people who disagree with his STRICT idea !!!!  

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On 10/7/2018 at 3:54 AM, Srecko Sostar said:

Yes i believe! In fact i have no need  to just believe. Something about  is written in Bible. Paul was excellent example.

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 4I persecuted this Way even to the death, detaining both men and women and throwing them into prison,…

As such member of Jew community he was very stubborn in self idea how he got the truth and how god's will for him is to speak and prosecute other people who disagree with his STRICT idea !!!!  

If you consider Apostle Paul as an example you would not have been speaking negatively of Abraham in the first place, or his wife, Sarah. You would not have spoken slander when you and Witness attempted to defend religious leadership roles given to women in modern day when such was forbidden and unheard of in the past or the whole Temple Chest thing you had an issue with.

And you've yet to show me anywhere in the Bible to your claim of Chloe being the Leader of the Church of Corinth - to which is unfounded, therefore, you have broken God's Word about those who add to the scripture when you are not suppose to. Tough cookies, Srecko, you cannot giggle your way out of that one.

You directed your last response towards me being stubborn and persistent. So how is it this time I am somehow a Jew part of a Jewish Community? I have studied a bit of Judaism, but I do not see how man who's roots is traced back to the mother land, Africa, is somehow a Jew.

Followers of God were strict also, for they wanted people to not be led astray and they were persistent in their word so the church remains clean of the accursed. Therefore, you example or point is totally meaningless.

That being said, be strict on what the Bible says, mainly on what Paul said about Orderly Worship in terms of God's Order, is a mercy towards you.

Also you are using those verses out of context....

On 10/7/2018 at 4:01 AM, Srecko Sostar said:

.... do not worry about it SM. We all working  on fruits of Spirit :))))))

Then work harder because need to show yourself to be God fearing. I guess perhaps in the future I might post questions via thread so it is neutral whereas both anyone even JWs and hop in, for I have came across some very complex questions with actual answers, so if anyone were to stop you guys on such, you should be able to answer.

That being said, Srecko, I will have to point out, for truly I say to ye, that what you have spoken of regarding Chloe is a lie, and the biblical facts I provided to you, use that for your study and research.

Remember these verses:

  • Proverbs 9:8 - Do not reprove a scoffer, or he will hate you; reprove a wise man, and he will love you.
  • Proverbs 15:31, 32 - [31] The ear that listens to life-giving reproof will dwell among the wise. [32] He who ignores discipline despises himself, but whoever heeds correction gains understanding.
  • Proverbs 19:20 - Listen to advice and accept instruction, that you may gain wisdom in the future.

Do not be a forgetful hearer, be one who listens, Srecko. And read your Bible.

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3 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

If you consider Apostle Paul as an example you would not have been speaking negatively of Abraham in the first place, or his wife, Sarah. You would not have spoken slander when you and Witness attempted to defend religious leadership roles given to women in modern day when such was forbidden and unheard of in the past or the whole Temple Chest thing you had an issue with.

And you've yet to show me anywhere in the Bible to your claim of Chloe being the Leader of the Church of Corinth - to which is unfounded, therefore, you have broken God's Word about those who add to the scripture when you are not suppose to. Tough cookies, Srecko, you cannot giggle your way out of that one.

You directed your last response towards me being stubborn and persistent. So how is it this time I am somehow a Jew part of a Jewish Community? I have studied a bit of Judaism, but I do not see how man who's roots is traced back to the mother land, Africa, is somehow a Jew.

Followers of God were strict also, for they wanted people to not be led astray and they were persistent in their word so the church remains clean of the accursed. Therefore, you example or point is totally meaningless.

That being said, be strict on what the Bible says, mainly on what Paul said about Orderly Worship in terms of God's Order, is a mercy towards you.

Also you are using those verses out of context....

Then work harder because need to show yourself to be God fearing. I guess perhaps in the future I might post questions via thread so it is neutral whereas both anyone even JWs and hop in, for I have came across some very complex questions with actual answers, so if anyone were to stop you guys on such, you should be able to answer.

That being said, Srecko, I will have to point out, for truly I say to ye, that what you have spoken of regarding Chloe is a lie, and the biblical facts I provided to you, use that for your study and research.

Remember these verses:

  • Proverbs 9:8 - Do not reprove a scoffer, or he will hate you; reprove a wise man, and he will love you.
  • Proverbs 15:31, 32 - [31] The ear that listens to life-giving reproof will dwell among the wise. [32] He who ignores discipline despises himself, but whoever heeds correction gains understanding.
  • Proverbs 19:20 - Listen to advice and accept instruction, that you may gain wisdom in the future.

Do not be a forgetful hearer, be one who listens, Srecko. And read your Bible.

:)))) i need to give you some smile and laugh about your methods of teaching. In almost all your respond, not only to me, but especially to me i will say... You using all past and present and future commentary on all kind of comments, conversation, reactions that i,  as your interlocutor made in mutual responses and even wider, that i made to someone else. 

It's pretty boring, if you have not noticed, and if that has not already been said to you by someone else. Please, try to focus your response on actual subject and not to disperse, spin  discussion from Adam to Melchizedek to Revelation book. :)))

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19 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

:)))) i need to give you some smile and laugh about your methods of teaching. In almost all your respond, not only to me, but especially to me i will say... You using all past and present and future commentary on all kind of comments, conversation, reactions that i,  as your interlocutor made in mutual responses and even wider, that i made to someone else. 

That is because you leave questions unanswered as well as you being cryptic with a hint of trickery, so they will be brought up and no, it isn't a method of teaching, it is bringing up claims in regards to such. You cannot heed command of the Christ if you think the way you do of very specific things, and you show yourself to be openly accepting of Traditions of Men in some of your claims and confusing passages, thus I will remind you every time until you better yourself. You are dealing with a Unitarian from CSE, what did you expect?

That being said, I only bring them up briefly because I know if I bring up the specifics, you will wiped them out.

What is being asked of you is recent stuff, not past items so I ask you the following:

You directed your last response towards me being stubborn and persistent. So how is it this time I am somehow a Jew part of a Jewish Community? 

You can start with that, in the other thread you can address what is being asked of you there - otherwise this will be a reminder of you just as your very reflect always reminds you of who you are everyday and every night.

19 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

It's pretty boring, if you have not noticed, and if that has not already been said to you by someone else. Please, try to focus your response on actual subject and not to disperse, spin  discussion from Adam to Melchizedek to Revelation book. :)))

How haven't I noticed if I am the one who brings it up time and time again? I bring it up so people know your stance, so they can see for themselves or before such information is wiped out.

You know by now I respond to a response, if you've forgotten of how this recent response come to this point, there is no spinning because if the topic is of your focus, you'd have to checked.

I didn't start the thread, Srecko, look again and see how things turned up the way they are, you were not too focused yourself.

If you want to speak about Armageddon, speak your resolve now, but this time when you want to go back to this focus, you say, do so without adding opinion and emotion into the text, use the Bible this time, nothing else but that and what the Word itself says.

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1 hour ago, Space Merchant said:

You are dealing with a Unitarian

As i see you support Watchtower and Jehovah's Witnesses.

Does Watchtower and Jehovah's Witnesses support you as Unitarian and Unitarianism as movement?  

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On 10/6/2018 at 5:52 PM, JOHN BUTLER said:

And when i said how i felt i was being treated, i did not mean by you personally, I meant generally. . 

You are relatively new on this forum, if I'm correct. So my advice is don't take anything personally, whatsoever. It's ideas that are being dissected and discussed, not so much the character of the person. Although I agree, ideas can speak of the character of the person, I think a good discussion forum steers away from "ad hominem" ( @TrueTomHarley most admired expression) remarks and tries to keep to the issue at hand. That is the only way a subject can be properly explored. I think anyway.

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On 10/10/2018 at 11:48 AM, Srecko Sostar said:

As i see you support Watchtower and Jehovah's Witnesses.

Does Watchtower and Jehovah's Witnesses support you as Unitarian and Unitarianism as movement?  

It's not a support, it is merely correct the wrongs here. Like I told you before, if you say something that is in error, about Judaism, Islam and or even things of the Bible, I will speak, even if you say something out of line regarding JWs, I will speak, remember Glasgow and the Registry information you tried to pass off as something big? Things of that nature.

Unitarianism isn't a movement.... Do you even know what a Unitarian is or which denominations among them are present? That being said, you'd be surprise of how Restorationist tend to agree with others on some points.

 

Anyways, discussion, Armageddon, in accordance with you.

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On 10/10/2018 at 11:58 AM, Anna said:

You are relatively new on this forum, if I'm correct. So my advice is don't take anything personally, whatsoever. It's ideas that are being dissected and discussed, not so much the character of the person. Although I agree, ideas can speak of the character of the person, I think a good discussion forum steers away from "ad hominem" ( @TrueTomHarley most admired expression) remarks and tries to keep to the issue at hand. That is the only way a subject can be properly explored. I think anyway.

I would say he is semi-new. He was here several months ago I believe for I had the first discussion with him regarding his claim of focus.

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56 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

I would say he is semi-new. He was here several months ago I believe for I had the first discussion with him regarding his claim of focus.

Semi new indeed. The answer is simple. Sometimes I'm very busy and not near a computer for weeks, but other times I have time and energy to spend online. 

Sometimes, after working hard for someone all day, I just don't have the mental energy to even turn my computer on.

Tomorrow will be one of those day. Laying out and lotting up an auction of automobilia, heavy, dirty, and tiring. 7am until 7pm probably. So you may not hear from me. :) 

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1 hour ago, Space Merchant said:

It's not a support, it is merely correct the wrongs here. Like I told you before, if you say something that is in error, about Judaism, Islam and or even things of the Bible, I will speak, even if you say something out of line regarding JWs, I will speak,

Do you think that WT need You to correct things on what people say, talking  about their (JW) religion?

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11 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

May i ask, do you find no error in WT history about all  what they said and teach and interpret on Armageddon issue ? 

I want to discuss about Armageddon, and yet you run back to the WT which will lead to another spin of responses.

But to be brief, the Jehovah's Witnesses believe that Armageddon is the means by which God will fulfill his purpose for the Earth to be populated with happy healthy humans free of sin and death. They teach that the armies of heaven will eradicate all who oppose the Kingdom of God, wiping out all wicked humans on Earth, leaving only righteous mankind.

That being said, Armageddon focused, what do you think it is? In details, no cryptic responses, please - keep it Bible focused.

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16 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

I want to discuss about Armageddon, and yet you run back to the WT which will lead to another spin of responses.

But to be brief, the Jehovah's Witnesses believe that Armageddon is the means by which God will fulfill his purpose for the Earth to be populated with happy healthy humans free of sin and death. They teach that the armies of heaven will eradicate all who oppose the Kingdom of God, wiping out all wicked humans on Earth, leaving only righteous mankind.

That being said, Armageddon focused, what do you think it is? In details, no cryptic responses, please - keep it Bible focused.

Strecko, i see SM does not answer you question. Such a shame as he thinks he is so clever. 

SM forgets that this is a JW forum, which includes the W/T. 

He seems to know what the JW Org believe but does say if he thinks they are right or wrong, which is what you have asked. 

His only response is to return with a question. Perhaps SM thinks he is copying Jesus. Asking a question in response to a question.

But we know that the Bible Students / the  GB / JW org / Wt, have got it wrong on predictions of Armageddon. 

And in my opinion it will not be so horrific as the Watchtower magazines have shown it. i don't think Jehovah likes causing pain just for the sake of it. I think Jesus and the angels will just kill those not counted as worthy. It could be just take away the gift of life and the person would be dead. That happened, i think, with the husband and wife that lied about how much they sold a field for. Each of them just dropped dead....  i do wonder though if people will be shown, in their minds, what they could have had, and if that will be their pain, the knowing and not getting... 

But i think Armageddon is a long way off yet, even if the GB say it is just around the corner, or closer.

I think everyone has to realise how bad world conditions are, so it has to be really bad everywhere.   Although I know many people are suffering in many places. 

 

 

 

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20 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Strecko, i see SM does not answer you question. Such a shame as he thinks he is so clever. 

SM forgets that this is a JW forum, which includes the W/T. 

He seems to know what the JW Org believe but does say if he thinks they are right or wrong, which is what you have asked. 

His only response is to return with a question. Perhaps SM thinks he is copying Jesus. Asking a question in response to a question.

But we know that the Bible Students / the  GB / JW org / Wt, have got it wrong on predictions of Armageddon.

Yes John, our "friend" SM are Master in making fog and not to give direct, simple and honest, sincere respond or answer on some very important asking, question that would reveal His real position about JW.

Armageddon is topic here and we can not get SM simple and direct respond, despite the very significant title that Librarian put in question. 

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1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Strecko, i see SM does not answer you question. Such a shame as he thinks he is so clever. 

Because when he speaks out of line he will go off in a cryptic tangent, for this isn't my first rodeo with Srecko, hence why I go by HIS word to keep it focused. Unless you want to join him, you are welcome.

I don't think I am clever, as with my first discussion with you my words were obvious to which you accepted.

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

SM forgets that this is a JW forum, which includes the W/T. 

I haven't forgotten. I want to discuss Armageddon specifically with Srecko, anyone can chime in, but his stance is that the WT has some different view to which I explained to him briefly of what their view is, a quote, if you will.

But it would seem at this point the both of you do not know that much about Armageddon, which is ever so obvious.

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

He seems to know what the JW Org believe but does say if he thinks they are right or wrong, which is what you have asked. 

I merely quoted: 

    Hello guest!

nothing more.

If you go back to page 3, you will see what Srecko is asking for and I will quote him: It's pretty boring, if you have not noticed, and if that has not already been said to you by someone else. Please, try to focus your response on actual subject and not to disperse, spin discussion from Adam to Melchizedek to Revelation book. :)))

To which I responded: If yo u want to speak about Armageddon on, speak your re solve now, but this time when you want to go back to this focus, you say, do so without adding opinion and emotion into the text, use the Bible this time, nothing else but that and what the Word itself says.

So next time perhaps read the previous page before you jump ship, Butler.

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

His only response is to return with a question. Perhaps SM thinks he is copying Jesus. Asking a question in response to a question.

I think I am Jesus when time and time again I speak of myself as a slave, a servant. The question was posed because he thinks we are not focused, but if you want to jump in by all means, Butler, please do.

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

But we know that the Bible Students / the  GB / JW org / Wt, have got it wrong on predictions of Armageddon. 

No one is talking about predictions, we are speaking of solely Armageddon itself.

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

And in my opinion it will not be so horrific as the Watchtower magazines have shown it. i don't think Jehovah likes causing pain just for the sake of it. I think Jesus and the angels will just kill those not counted as worthy. It could be just take away the gift of life and the person would be dead. That happened, i think, with the husband and wife that lied about how much they sold a field for. Each of them just dropped dead....  i do wonder though if people will be shown, in their minds, what they could have had, and if that will be their pain, the knowing and not getting... 

This is your opinion, you should be using the bible. According to the Book of Revelations in the Greek New Testament of the Bible, Armageddon is pretty much the day of God, of which he will execute Judgement on the wicked and all that is bad.

God our Father is a God of Justice, for even in Bible times you bear witness to such and when his judgement has been executed it is for a good reason. If you think God is going to send his Son to throw flowers and cookies in the face of the wicked, you are dead wrong, Mr. Butler.

It is far more than that, along wickedness also includes those who try to test God, those who do not apply God's Laws, those who are for brazen conduct, glorifers of sin, and a list of other things. Jesus will be coming with the army of which his Father put him in command of for Jesus has been made superior after being exalted by God according to Hebrews 1, and they will go and enact Justice in the name of God, for the Lord and Savior will be coming with a sword, and he will come to do what he was sent to do, for as a King, as a Warrior, as a bene elohim of El Shaddai, he will do what is needed to rid wickedness off the face of the earth.

And no, they won't be dropping dead as they stand, what part of God's Army or coming with a sword did you not understand. Warriors and or Soldiers will confront their enemy, from a distance or close quarters, it is no different from how the angels and even the Christ himself will do to the wicked, and we already know what angels are capable of, we have not seen or read about Jesus doing such, but him being superior, one can only imagine, now as for God, well, that is a whole different ball game.

No they won't. Death is swift, mainly if the act is committed by God in terms of Justice, remember what happen to several notable people in the Bible? They were dealt with swiftly, in an instant. The wicked will not even have a millisecond to think, to blink, perhaps to take a slight of breathe.

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

But i think Armageddon is a long way off yet, even if the GB say it is just around the corner, or closer.

The Day of God can happen anytime, anywhere on this earth. This is why the Bible tells us explicitly to keep being vigilant for the day of God is near, as spoken of by Jesus and his followers, in to our day.

This is why we should endure and read the Word and follow it correctly and accordingly. You do not want to have the mindset of those who remained and or decided to return to Jerusalem, for such is foolish.

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

I think everyone has to realise how bad world conditions are, so it has to be really bad everywhere.   Although I know many people are suffering in many places. 

A great dealing of suffering, and a whole lot of it. In my experience what I had witnessed and heard, even by my hand, is like a haunting memory that torments. This is why I believe in the word, strongly, I believe in the truth and obvious be one to be an opponent of lies.

For I know God will send his Son again and help us for we are in need of such greatly.

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15 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Yes John, our "friend" SM are Master in making fog and not to give direct, simple and honest, sincere respond or answer on some very important asking, question that would reveal His real position about JW.

Armageddon is topic here and we can not get SM simple and direct respond, despite the very significant title that Librarian put in question. 

But your word on the last page pretty much contradicts what you are conveying here.

You wanted to speak about Armageddon, I agreed and even said let us use the Bible, then immediately right after that you speak of the Watchtower this, Watchtower that when I had told you to use the bible regarding Armageddon.

And next thing you know it will derail and you will speak of cryptic and or flawed things, then you will seek out admin to come to your aid as you have done several times already. If you do not want to box in the ring, you should not have hopped in to begin with, Srecko.

And yes, Armageddon is the topic here, let's discuss it using the bible lone, unless you want to continue to seek aid from JWs and not make an effort yourself, it shows you cannot actual use the bible without given mention of them, i.e. when speaking about women, you brought up JWs and you misused Galatians 3:28, thus revealing yourself to be a mainstream Christian without much of an effort, I do not like mainstream Christians as you can see for months now.

Clearly you never saw me as a friend, and never will and I do not care, especially with that witch doctor remark of yours you made against me before, assuming I would take offence but Mr. Butler did you the favor of preventing what I had to say to you when he shifted the topic, the first time I discussed with you and my word is true from the last page as it is now.

So that being said, I put both you and Butler to task regarding Armageddon by means of the Bible alone, so far, Mr. Butler didn't realize how things will go down by means of what is spoken of Revelations and what Jesus had said.

You want to speak about Armageddon, let's have it then, Srecko, you can use any bible translation you want, and I can guarantee you that you wouldn't get far without speaking about anything to do with JWs, as God bears witness to my words regarding this.

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If SM would be kind enough to go to the top of the page and read the Topic heading he will see IT IS ABOUT JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES  VIEWPOINT ON ARMAGEDDON. 

The question asked in the heading is 

What makes them think itÂ’ll still happen?

I'll make it clear here. It is. What makes the Jehovah's Witnesses think it will still happen ?

It is not out viewpoint on Armageddon that is asked for here. 

So over to all you JW's the question is aimed at you i think. But use your Bible please. :) 

I'll just add one thing though. Jesus warned of the fall of Jerusalem to the Romans, but it didn't happen for a long time. BUT it did happen. 

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3 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

If SM would be kind enough to go to the top of the page and read the Topic heading he will see IT IS ABOUT JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES  VIEWPOINT ON ARMAGEDDON. 

If you noticed I did say something before, how did you miss this? Let along a clear description later on as to what Armageddon is and what it represents? Page 1, response number 6.

 

3 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

The question asked in the heading is 

What makes them think i?tÂ’ll still happen???

Already explained as seen by my last post, I put in in a general sense of Christianity's view of Armageddon, the Great Day of God.

 

It will happen. If you believe the words of the Christ, you shouldn't be in doubt of what he said and what his Father will do. Do not be like Tomas/Didymus.

3 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

I'll make it clear here. It is. What makes the Jehovah's Witnesses think it will still happen ?

Because perhaps the Bible says so. When End Time Tribulations conclude, the Great Day of God will come to pass whereas the sheep and the goats will be separated, or the wheat of the harvest to be separated from the weeds of the field.

Jesus said this day is near, as did others in the Bible and we have examples of such by means of Sodom and Gomorrah, Noah's Day regarding the flood, The city of Jerusalem being attacked, Jonah being tasked by God to go to Nineveh, etc.

For us, this day will be a day whereas all men who are of wickedness and lawlessness, those having a total disregard for God's Laws will perish.

There is no middle ground between Life and Death.

3 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

So over to all you JW's the question is aimed at you i think. But use your Bible please. :)

Some of them have.

3 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

I'll just add one thing though. Jesus warned of the fall of Jerusalem to the Romans, but it didn't happen for a long time. BUT it did happen. 

Indeed, and you see the people at the time were in doubt and they paid for it. This example serves for us today for the coming day of God and the return of the Christ. The only different you now is you have God's adversary and God's chosen mighty warrior who is King that will return, and he will be accompanied by God's angelic army.

It makes you think. If a single angel can wipe out 185,000 Assyrian soldiers, how much you think the one made superior to the other angels in combination with the angels themselves will do when that day comes? For their assault will also be directed to those spirit beings who side themselves with Satan as well.

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@Space Merchant  It makes you think. If a single angel can wipe out 185,000 Assyrian soldiers, how much you think the one made superior to the other angels in combination with the angels themselves will do when that day comes? For their assault will also be directed to those spirit beings who side themselves with Satan as well.

Yes SM, it is very serious and does make me think. I hope I will be in the ground before it happens. 

 

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4 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

There is no middle ground between Life and Death.

Oh , yes there is! 

One famous actor, now old. And it happens,  some giving to such actors insignificant roles below their artistic level , and they accept them because they have to make money for life. He said when they asked him how can be that he accept that situation; "And he (director) don't know that I'm playing dead".

But we shall leave wisdom of worldly men and will go to one Bible verse, for example Revelation 3:1:

“To the angel of the congregation in Sarʹdis write: These are the things that he says who has the seven spirits of God

    Hello guest!
 and the seven stars:
    Hello guest!
 ‘I know your deeds, that you have the name
    Hello guest!
 that you are alive, but you are dead.  

middle ground exist :)))))

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4 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

If a single angel can wipe out 185,000 Assyrian soldiers

....and he (angel) done that before many centuries....question arise------- how is possible that this same angel can not help to 1 or to 185 000 children and to prevent, to stop their personal Armageddon as victims of child molesters? 

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3 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

....and he (angel) done that before many centuries....question arise------- how is possible that this same angel can not help to 1 or to 185 000 children and to prevent, to stop their personal Armageddon as victims of child molesters? 

Can an angel of death stop imperfection and sin and death? Can angels halt ill desires and brazen conduct which includes molestation?

Why not answer the very question that you brought up since you are bold today?

God sent an Angel "Destroyer or Angel of Death" take out the Assyrian Soldiers before they can even touch the city that is under Hezekiah's control, this resulted in the Assyrian King to flee only for him to meet his own fate by the hands of his own.

As I have told you, countless times, things like this will continue to happen and if I have to quote someone, his only words regarding this is that "cannot be stopped" things like this will continue to happen until God's Day and when that time comes, no longer will molesters will prey on young ones in clubs, schools, churches what have you, for you will look and they will not be there.

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On 10/11/2018 at 3:11 PM, Srecko Sostar said:

May i ask, do you find no error in WT history about all  what they said and teach and interpret on Armageddon issue ? 

There view lines up with the early Church, in fact this same view is professed by most Non-Trinitarians, even to us. Armageddon is the Day of God to pass judgement, to wipe out the wicked from the face of the earth - it isn't complex, very simple.

3 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Oh , yes there is! 

One famous actor, now old. And it happens,  some giving to such actors insignificant roles below their artistic level , and they accept them because they have to make money for life. He said when they asked him how can be that he accept that situation; "And he (director) don't know that I'm playing dead".

But we shall leave wisdom of worldly men and will go to one Bible verse, for example Revelation 3:1:

“To the angel of the congregation in Sarʹdis write: These are the things that he says who has the seven spirits of God

    Hello guest!
 and the seven stars:
    Hello guest!
 ‘I know your deeds, that you have the name
    Hello guest!
 that you are alive, but you are dead.  

middle ground exist :)))))

No it does not Deuteronomy 30:15-20 and Apostle Paul proves this to be factual and true.

. The opposite of life is death, the opposite of death is life. Humans are not spirit nor turn into spirits so that is already debunked.

The fact that you quotes this verse and not understand it only shows you are ignorant of context. This verse is regarding those having the holy spirit out poured out to them across a multitude church congregations.

That being said, I rather not dwell in the Spiritism doctrine you dwell yourself on like some Christians who believe in undeath, which isn't not to far from those who take the dark path of Satanism. And how ironic, it is October, you must be "that guy" Srecko.

 

There is Life and there is Death, no middle ground. It is in the same sense as standing with God or for Satan - no middle ground.

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6 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

It makes you think. If a single angel can wipe out 185,000 Assyrian soldiers, how much you think the one made superior to the other angels in combination with the angels themselves will do when that day comes? For their assault will also be directed to those spirit beings who side themselves with Satan as well.

Yes SM, it is very serious and does make me think. I hope I will be in the ground before it happens. 

The end is indeed near. There are people who want to see it happen, some of old age, including someone that I know, tears up because he wants to be living to see that day, everything spoken of in the Bible coming true.

At the end of it all, the wicked will be no more and as judgment continues, there will also be the Christ who by means of God and authority given to him will bring back people who have since died and will most likely do what Prophet Isiah plans to do and anyone who survives will live on earth without the problems that came from things that during this time, will be of the past - this includes what bothers you the most, it will be gone also.

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      28 “This is the end of the matter. As for me, Daniel, my thoughts alarmed me greatly, so that I turned pale; but I kept the matter in my own heart.”
    • By Witness
      Except for some time-consuming events, my husband and I have traveled across the heart of the state of Nevada, numerous times per year, for the last fifteen years. It can be a long, lonely jaunt, but with periods of peace. We know where to look for herds of sheep wandering freely without fences, taking their time in maneuvering to a fresh crop of grass on other side of the highway. We’ve witnessed rogue sheepdogs seemingly searching for their flock. We’ve got it down where the elk hang out, the pronghorn, as well as the long straight stretches that we wish would end sooner than they do. I know I’ve seen every sign along that highway; but their appearance doesn’t always register in the brain. During this last trip, one rather small sign took on a different meaning for me. Besides highway markers pointing to the major natural attractions, there are minor signs directing the way to areas such as Fish Creek, Robert’s Creek, Duckwater; and the one that caught my eye on this last journey, Blind Valley. What was someone’s reason for naming it such? Is it a valley hidden from the view of the highway? Was it a land purchase made sight unseen? Most likely, fish are found in Fish Creek, ducks are found at Duckwater. Robert might even be found at Robert’s Creek. Could it be that someone blind, lives in Blind Valley?
      How well the name “Blind Valley” designates a symbolic valley where multitudes within it are found to be spiritually blind - the Bible’s “valley of decision”.
      “Come quickly, all you nations from every side,
      and assemble there.
      Bring down your warriors, Lord!
      12 “Let the nations be roused;
      let them advance into the Valley of Jehoshaphat,
      for there I will sit
      to judge all the nations on every side.
      13 Swing the sickle,
      for the harvest is ripe.
      Come, trample the grapes,
      for the winepress is full
      and the vats overflow—
      so great is their wickedness!”
      14 Multitudes, multitudes
      in the valley of decision!
      For the day of the Lord is near
      in the valley of decision.” Joel 3:11-14
      During this war of Armageddon, the “abundant” or “great number” found in this valley of decision, have chosen to remain spiritually blind to the truth presented before them. God’s final judgment that they face, involves their choice of teachings derived from anointed ones who speak truth or lies; lasting, good “fruit”, or rotten fruit from bad “trees”; spiritually equipped either with God’s Spirit or that of Satan’s, to battle against their opponent. (Matt 7:20; Eph 6:12-17; Rev 16:13,14;17:14; 19:11)
      The question is, why would someone desire to remain blind to God’s truth, resulting in permanent blindness? (Matt 13:14,15,16; 2 Cor 4:4; 1 Tim 4:1,2)
      How does one’s heart become a “weed” during this final harvest? (Matt 13:24-29)
      The following quote may help reveal why. It is taken from an interview with a JW last month, on the organization’s broadcasting channel. He states:
      “The ambitions that I had before, that may have been obtainable, became second place. Now it was to have a simple life, to walk with the organization and to raise my children in the truth”.
      Does this statement portray the general feeling of JWs? I think so, otherwise they would readily accept the choice to leave the organization and serve God without it, and without the repercussion of shunning. Yet, we know doing so, is not a simple decision to accept. (Dan 12:1; Matt 24:21; Rev 9:4-6) It has been made perfectly clear by its leaders, that without “moving ahead” with the organization, eternal life is not possible. (2 Cor 11:4; Col 2:8)
      So, undoubtedly, it is perceived that ‘walking with the organization’ and bearing its brand on one’s mind and heart, equates with walking with God in truth. (Isa 42:8; Jer 2:8; Deut 11:18; Rev 13:4,16) Doing so, keeps the decisions as a faithful member of the organization, “simple”, no matter what fallacies may be taught throughout the years. (Jer 18:15; 2:13)
      The weapon used by Satan in this war of truth against lies, is the organization; constructed with one purpose, to mislead and subsequently persecute the “remaining ones of the woman’s seed”. (Gen 3:15; Dan 11:10; 12:4; 8:15,17; Rev 1:1; 20:7-9)
      A hunter uses camouflage to disguise himself from the prey. A bird hunter also uses decoys to attract the prey into believing he is joining in with his fellow birds. How naive it is, to believe Satan would not also utilize a bait of truth and the tactic of disguise, using elements at his fingertips. This allows him to build a decoy on the grandest scale possible in his realm. (Amos 3:5; Ps 140:4,5; Prov 22:5; Rev 9:3,10)
      He has successfully created a delusion to sift each anointed heart as “wheat”, which our God of justice, allows to occur. (Amos 9:9; 2 Thess 2:10-12) His “ministers of light” call it, “the truth”. (2 Pet 2:2; Rev 13:5,6)
      “sift”: “shake in a sieve”/”inward agitation to try one's faith to the verge of overthrow”
      If we give in to “walking with the organization”, our faith in God has been overthrown – conquered.
      Let’s compare the JWs’s testimony with scripture. To God’s authentic anointed “witnesses”, He declares,
      I, I am YHVH,
      and there is no other Savior but Me.
      I ALONE declared, saved, and proclaimed—
      and not some foreign god among you.
      So you are My witnesses”—
      this is the Lord’s declaration—
      “and I am God.” Isa 43:11,12
      Although he may speak of God, the man interviewed revealed what lies in the deep-seated intentions of his heart. (Matt 15:18,19; Luke 6:45) It is evident that it is idolatry toward an organization.  He believes he cannot obtain eternal life without it.  
      Isa 43:11,12 speaks of a “foreign god”, with a footnote that refers to “foreigners”. There are “foreigners/foreign gods among God’s true “witnesses”, His Temple priesthood. (Jer 2:11) They have secured the priesthood from whom it rightly belongs. (Isa 51:23; Mark 13:14; Rev 11:1,2)
      Their magnified presence signifies the very organization that JWs adhere to. (Exod 20:5; Rev 13:15) It is the elder body, the “Gentile” “man of lawlessness” that opposes “and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.” (2 Thess 2:4; 1 Pet 2:5,9; 1 Cor 3:16,17; Eph 2:20-22)
      Left unchecked, Satan’s ruse would fully “devour Jacob”. (Jer 10:23-25)
      Only a remnant is prophesied to survive. (Isa 10:19; Amos 7:1,2; Rev 9:3,4; 3:18;7:13-15)
      The JW interviewed puts his faith in an organization built by spiritually unqualified men. (Num 18:7; 2 Chron 13:9; Ezek 44:7-9) He has allowed it to trap, rule over, and lead him into serving a “foreign god”.
      “But I have a few things against you. You have some there who hold to the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to place a stumbling block (“to place a trap”) in front of the Israelites: to eat meat sacrificed to idols and to commit sexual immorality.” Rev 2:14
      This is an act of blasphemy against YHVH and His decrees concerning His Temple. (Dan 11:31; 1 Cor 3:16,17) If we are to envision this idolatry, it must be our heart’s desire to love God and His decrees, over those of men. (Exod 34:14; 2 Tim 4:3; Tit 1:9)
       
      As each prophet/"tree" bears "fruit"/teachings,
      and this war of words escalates; God foresaw that the ruling wicked would persecute the faithful, on the basis of false doctrines (Matt 24:49; Ezek 38:21; 1 John 3:12; Rev 13:15; 11:3,7; 16:13,14; 17:14; 19:11,14; 6:9,11; John 16:2; Matt 5:11,12; 23:37; Acts 7:52; Rev 11:8; Dan 7:21,23,25; Dan 8:12)
      The faithful retaliate with the sword of God's Word of Truth. (Dan 11:32,33; 2 Cor 10:4,5; 6:7; Heb 4:12; Eph 6:17; Rev 19:19,15,20; 11:5,3,4)
      As this battle between truth and lies occurs, the final harvest/judgment of "fruit"/teachings/words occurs (Matt 12:36,37,34,35; Prov 18:21; Matt 7:17) in the symbolic "valley of decision" (Heb 4:13; Rom 14:12; 2 Cor 5:10; Prov 16:4; Rev 22:12; Dan 7:22).  
      Pearl Doxsey – “What is Armageddon?”
      Should anyone earnestly yearn to know Christ’s authentic truths, they would be granted that understanding. Those who choose to remain in darkness, close-minded to God’s decrees, are among the blind judged in the valley of decision.
       Hades when translated, means "not perceiving". It is the consignment of all those born under sin, and means to be under a blanket of spiritual darkness, ignorance, and confusion. Only those granted light, truth, and understanding, are figuratively rescued from the realm of Hades.

      When Jesus tells us that he has the keys to Hades/Abyss... this means that he has the power and authority to release whom he chooses, from spiritual darkness... and transfer them into his kingdom of light and life (Col 1:13; Luke 8:10) those who are repentant. Jesus also has the authority and power to lock up others... or to leave them there, in ignorance and spiritual darkness (Matt 13:10,11,13-16; Jude 1:13; John 12:35) those hard-hearted who are not repentant. Such ones remain under the authority and power of the Devil (2 Cor 4:4; John 3:18).  
      When Rev 20:1 tells us that the chain of restraint that Jesus possesses is "great"; this points to the ability of Jesus, to prevent understanding and perception among the blind, but proud (John 9:41). When Jesus wraps that symbolic chain around the Devil, and then casts the Devil into the Abyss/Hades... this depicts for us, Satan's blind inability to mislead those whom Jesus rescues from darkness... because it is now Satan who is overcome by the blind confusion of his own realm.
      Jesus also shares his keys to release from the abyss (or bind in chains of ignorance) (Matt 16:19; 18:18), those whom his enlightened brothers judge as repentant (John 20:23) and worthy of the treasures of truth which they are empowered by Jesus, to impart (Matt 10:7,11-14; 7:6).
      Rev 20:1
      Pearl Doxsey
       
      Idolatry among Israel happened continually. (2 Kings 17:9; Judges 10:13-16; Neh 9:26,28; Hos 1:1,2; Jer 2:28; Ps 78:35-37) Today’s spiritual “Israel” and companions in the organization have also blindly fallen into idolatry, by ‘walking with the organization’. It is a “god” possibly not previously known, before dedicating themselves at baptism and serving this god through their necessary, various activities laid out for them by a Harlot/false prophet. (Matt 24:11,12; Luke 21:8; 2 Thess 2:1-3; 2 Pet 2:1-3; Rev 13:11-14,16-18)
      “If a prophet or someone who has dreams arises among you and proclaims a *sign or wonder to you, 2 and that sign or wonder he has promised you comes about, but he says, ‘Let us follow other gods,’ which you have not known, ‘and let us worship them,’ 3 do not listen to that prophet’s words or to that dreamer. For the Lord your God is testing you to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and all your soul. 4 You must follow the Lord your God and fear Him. You must keep His commands and listen to His voice; you must worship Him and remain faithful to Him. 5 That prophet or dreamer must be put to death, because he has urged *rebellion against the Lord your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt and redeemed you from the place of slavery, to turn you from the way the Lord your God has commanded you to walk. You must purge the evil from you.” Deut 13:1-5
      The organization appears as an apparent ‘simple’, wide open, welcoming door; yet, it if one chooses to remain blind to its true intention, it will lead to one’s downfall. (Luke 13:22-27; John 10:9,10 )
      “Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way. For that day will not come unless the *rebellion comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction. The coming of the lawless one is based on Satan’s working, with all kinds of *false miracles, signs, and wonders, 10 and with every unrighteous deception among those who are perishing. They perish because they did not accept the love of the truth in order to be saved.” 2 Thess 2:3,9,10
      “Mankind, He has told you what is good
      and what it is the Lord requires of you:
      to act justly,
      to love faithfulness,
      and to walk humbly with your God.” Micah 6:8
       
      WALKING WITH THE ORGANIZATION CANNOT EQUATE TO WALKING WITH GOD.
      “Take delight in the Lord, and HE will give you your heart’s desires”. Ps 37:4 
       
      Pearl Doxsey, 4womaninthewilderness blogspot –
      “Wheat and Weed Seeds Grow Up Together”
      "Abomination of Desolation"

       
    • Guest
      By Guest
      The Year 2038 problem is an issue for computing and data storage situations in which time values are stored or calculated as a signed 32-bit integer, and this number is interpreted as the number of seconds since 00:00:00 UTC on 1 January 1970 (the epoch).[1] Such implementations cannot encode times after 03:14:07 UTC on 19 January 2038, a problem similar to but not entirely analogous to the Y2K problem (also known as the Millennium Bug), in which 2-digit values representing the number of years since 1900 could not encode the year 2000 or later. Most 32-bit Unix-like systems store and manipulate time in this Unix time format, so the year 2038 problem is sometimes referred to as the Unix Millennium Bug by association.

      Animation showing how the date would reset, represented as a signed 32-bit integer (at 03:14:08 UTC on 19 January 2038).
      Technical cause
      The latest time that can be represented in Unix's signed 32-bit integer time format is 03:14:07 UTC on Tuesday, 19 January 2038 (231-1 = 2,147,483,647 seconds after 1 January 1970).[2] Times beyond that will wrap around and be stored internally as a negative number, which these systems will interpret as having occurred on 13 December 1901 rather than 19 January 2038. This is caused by integer overflow. The counter runs out of usable digit bits, flips the sign bit instead, and reports a maximally negative number (continuing to count up, toward zero). Resulting erroneous calculations on such systems are likely to cause problems for users and other relying parties.
      Programs that work with future dates will begin to run into problems sooner; for example a program that works with dates 20 years in the future will have to be fixed no later than 2018.
      Early problems
      In May 2006, reports surfaced of an early manifestation of the Y2038 problem in the AOLserver software. The software was designed with a kludge to handle a database request that should "never" time out. Rather than specifically handling this special case, the initial design simply specified an arbitrary time-out date in the future. The default configuration for the server specified that the request should time out after one billion seconds. One billion seconds (approximately thirty-two years) after 9:27.28 pm on 12 May 2006 is beyond the 2038 cutoff date. Thus, after this time, the time-out calculation overflowed and returned a date that was actually in the past, causing the software to crash. When the problem was discovered, AOLServer operators had to edit the configuration file and set the time-out to a lower value.[3][4]
      Players of games or apps which are programmed to impose waiting periods[5] are running into this problem when they attempt to work around the waiting period on devices which harbor the coding, by manually setting their devices (such as the Nexus 7[6]) to a date past 19 January 2038, but are unable to do so, since a 32-bit Unix time format is being used.
      Vulnerable systems
      Embedded systems that use dates for either computation or diagnostic logging are most likely to be affected by the 2038 bug.
      Many transportation systems from flight to automobiles use embedded systems extensively. In automotive systems, this may include anti-lock braking system (ABS), electronic stability control (ESC/ESP), traction control (TCS) and automatic four-wheel drive; aircraft may use inertial guidance systems and GPS receivers. However this does not imply that all these systems will suffer from the bug. Many such systems will not require access to dates. For those that do, those systems which only track the difference between times/dates and not absolute times/dates will, by the nature of the calculation, not experience a problem. This is the case for automotive diagnostics based on legislative standards such as CARB (California Air Resources Board).[7]
      Another major use of embedded systems is in communications devices, including cell phones and Internet appliances (routers, wireless access points, etc.) which rely on storing an accurate time and date and are increasingly based on UNIX-like operating systems. For example, the bug makes some Android devices crash and not restart when the time is changed to that date.[8]
      Despite the modern 18–24 month generational update in computer systems technology, embedded systems are designed to last the lifetime of the machine in which they are a component. It is conceivable that some of these systems may still be in use in 2038. It may be impractical or, in some cases, impossible to upgrade the software running these systems, ultimately requiring replacement if 32-bit time_t limitations are to be corrected.
      MySQL database's built-in functions like UNIX_TIMESTAMP() will return 0 after 03:14:07 UTC on 19 January 2038,[9] though a bug-fix was contributed on 22 March 2017.[10]
      Data structures with time problems
      Many data structures in use today have 32-bit time representations embedded into their structure. A full list of these data structures is virtually impossible to derive but there are well-known data structures that have the Unix time problem:
      file systems (many file systems use only 32 bits to represent times in inodes)
      binary file formats (that use 32-bit time fields)
      databases (that have 32-bit time fields)
      database query languages, like SQL that have UNIX_TIMESTAMP() like commands
      Examples of systems utilizing data structures that may contain 32-bit time representations include:
      COBOL systems of 1970s–1990s vintage that have not been replaced by 2038-compliant systems[citation needed]
      embedded factory, refinery control and monitoring subsystems
      assorted medical devices
      assorted military devices
      Any system making use of data structures containing 32-bit time representations will present risk. The degree of risk is dependent on the mode of failure.
      NTP timestamps
      The Network Time Protocol has a related overflow issue, which manifests itself in 2036, rather than 2038. The 64-bit timestamps used by NTP consist of a 32-bit part for seconds and a 32-bit part for fractional second, giving NTP a time scale that rolls over every 232 seconds (136 years) and a theoretical resolution of 21321 seconds (233 picoseconds). NTP uses an epoch of 1 January 1900. The first rollover occurs in 2036, prior to the UNIX year 2038 problem.
      Implementations should disambiguate NTP time using a knowledge of the approximate time from other sources. Since NTP only works with the differences between timestamps and never their absolute values, the wraparound is invisible as long as the timestamps are within 68 years of each other.
      This means that for NTP the rollover will be invisible for most running systems, since they will have the correct time to within a very small tolerance. However, systems that are starting up need to know the date within no more than 68 years. Given the large allowed error, it is not expected that this is too onerous a requirement. One suggested method is to set the clock to no earlier than the system build date or the release date of the current version of the NTP software. Many systems use a battery-powered hardware clock to avoid this problem.
      Even so, future versions of NTP may extend the time representation to 128 bits: 64 bits for the second and 64 bits for the fractional-second. The current NTP4 format has support for Era Number and Era Offset, that when used properly should aid fixing date rollover issues. According to Mills, "The 64 bit value for the fraction is enough to resolve the amount of time it takes a photon to pass an electron at the speed of light. The 64 bit second value is enough to provide unambiguous time representation until the universe goes dim."[11][note 1]
      Solutions
      There is no universal solution for the Year 2038 problem. Any change to the definition of the time_t data type would result in code compatibility problems in any application in which date and time representations are dependent on the nature of the signed 32-bit time_t integer. For example, changing time_t to an unsigned 32-bit integer, which would extend the range to the year 2106, would adversely affect programs that store, retrieve, or manipulate dates prior to 1970, as such dates are represented by negative numbers. Increasing the size of the time_t type to 64-bit in an existing system would cause incompatible changes to the layout of structures and the binary interface of functions.
      There is also no universal solution for the issue with DVB and ATSC real time transmitted dates due to issues with legacy receivers. The issue has yet to be acknowledged or resolved by either organization. The only workaround would be to discontinue all time-related metadata services such as programming guides and automatic date synchronization after the affected dates. One possible option would be to create new table types for the affected part of the specifications and use ISO 8601 date strings rather than fixed integers—as are used in ISO 9660 and ISO 13346 filesystems.
      Most operating systems designed to run on 64-bit hardware already use signed 64-bit time_t integers. Using a signed 64-bit value introduces a new wraparound date that is over twenty times greater than the estimated age of the universe: approximately 292 billion years from now, at 15:30:08 UTC on Sunday, 4 December 292,277,026,596. The ability to make computations on dates is limited by the fact that tm_year uses a signed 32 bit integer value starting at 1900 for the year. This limits the year to a maximum of 2,147,485,547 (2,147,483,647 + 1900).[12]
      Starting with NetBSD version 6.0 (released in October 2012), the NetBSD operating system uses a 64-bit time_t for both 32-bit and 64-bit architectures. Applications that were compiled for an older NetBSD release with 32-bit time_t are supported via a binary compatibility layer, but such older applications will still suffer from the Year 2038 problem.[13]
      OpenBSD since version 5.5, released in May 2014, also uses a 64-bit time_t for both 32-bit and 64-bit architectures. In contrast to NetBSD, there is no binary compatibility layer. Therefore, applications expecting a 32-bit time_t and applications using anything different from time_t to store time values may break.[14]
      Linux uses a 64-bit time_t for 64-bit architectures only; the pure 32-bit ABI is not changed due to backward compatibility.[15] There is ongoing work, mostly for embedded Linux systems, to support 64-bit time_t on 32-bit architectures, too.[16][17]
      The x32 ABI for Linux (which defines an environment for programs with 32-bit addresses but running the processor in 64-bit mode) uses a 64-bit time_t. Since it was a new environment, there was no need for special compatibility precautions.[15]
      Network File System version 4 has defined its time fields as struct nfstime4 {int64_t seconds; uint32_t nseconds;} since December, 2000.[18] Values greater than zero for the seconds field denote dates after the 0-hour, January 1, 1970. Values less than zero for the seconds field denote dates before the 0-hour, January 1, 1970. In both cases, the nseconds (nanoseconds) field is to be added to the seconds field for the final time representation.
      Alternative proposals have been made (some of which are in use), such as storing either milliseconds or microseconds since an epoch (typically either 1 January 1970 or 1 January 2000) in a signed 64-bit integer, providing a minimum range of 300,000 years.[19][20] Other proposals for new time representations provide different precisions, ranges, and sizes (almost always wider than 32 bits), as well as solving other related problems, such as the handling of leap seconds. In particular, TAI64[21] is an implementation of the Temps Atomique International standard, the current international real-time standard for defining a second and frame of reference.
    • By Jack Ryan
      To all naysayers and apologists who say that Jehovah will look at hearts at armageddon and save billions, my own mother believes this.
      This is the october 2019 study Watchtower page 11 paragraph 14. As you can see it makes it crystal clear that ONLY baptized witnesses will survive armageddon.
      14 Read Matthew 28:19, 20. As we conduct Bible studies, we have to try our best to “make disciples . . . , teaching them to observe all the things [Jesus has] commanded.” We need to help people understand how important it is for them to take their stand for Jehovah and his Kingdom. This means trying to motivate people to make the truth their own by applying what they learn, dedicating their life to Jehovah, and getting baptized. Only then will they survive Jehovah’s day.—1 Pet. 3:21.
    • By Witness
      To get to the meaningful core of what Armageddon is about, which is the battle of truth against lies, we look at Israel’s sins of the past.  Today’s spiritual “Israel” comprised of the anointed ones, is also steeped in sin, resulting from a testing delusion put upon them by Satan; a delusion that is passionately called “the truth”.   Luke 22:31; 2 Thess 2:9-12; Rev 13:1,2,11 
      God does expect us to seek Truth.  Ps 25:5; Matt 7:7,8; John 4:23,24; 8:31,32; 14:6 
      Yet, today’s “Israel” is feeding on the lies of their leaders/prophets. Matt 7:15; Acts 20:29; Rev 16:13,14  
      When reading Ezekiel chapter 13, notice that the term “whitewash” helps reveal what is behind the organization’s ‘new light’ label.  Many translations use the phrase, “untempered mortar”, a few say “loose mud”, or “chalk”; all are descriptive of the organization’s attempt to cover over unstable teachings that do not last.  John 15:16,5 
      “untempered mortar” is defined as “whitewash" used to patch a wall, creating the facade of beauty.
      As an example:
      Matt 23:37 – “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean.”
      Why were these teachers described by Jesus as whitewashed tombs?
      “You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! 46 Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don’t you believe me? 47 Whoever belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.”  John 8:44-47
      By choosing to deny Christ’s words of truth which offer eternal life, they remained in spiritual darkness, alienated from God and life.
       “The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life.”  John 6:63
      “If we claim to have fellowship with him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live out the truth.” 1 John 1:6
      The battle of truth against lies was evident then, and is now, as it reaches the end point in these last days.  The “two witnesses” (“two “meaning truth – John 8:17) proclaim the revealing message from Christ, while false prophets battle against it, with their lies. Dan 12:9; Rev 1:11; 11:3; 1 John 4:6 
      Ezekiel chapter 13:
      The word of the Lord came to me: 2 “Son of man, prophesy against the prophets of Israel who are now prophesying. Say to those who prophesy out of their own imagination: ‘Hear the word of the Lord!3 This is what the Sovereign Lord says: Woe to the foolish (“wicked”) prophets who follow their own spirit and have seen nothing! 
      4 Your prophets, Israel, are like jackals among ruins. (Lam 5:17,18; Ps 44:19)
       5 You have not gone up to the breaches in the wall to repair it for the people of Israel so that it will stand firm in the battle on the day of the Lord. ( Ezek 22:30)
      6 Their visions are false and their divinations a lie. Even though the Lord has not sent them, they say, “The Lord declares,” and expect Him to fulfill their words. (Ps 50:21; Isa 57:11) 
      7 Have you not seen false visions and uttered lying divinations when you say, “The Lord declares,” though I have not spoken? (Ezek 22:28; Rev 16:13,14) 
      8 “‘Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord says: Because of your false words and lying visions, I am against you, declares the Sovereign Lord.9 My hand will be against the prophets who see false visions and utter lying divinations. They will not belong to the council of my people or be listed in the records of Israel, nor will they enter the land of Israel. Then you will know that I am the Sovereign Lord.  (Rev 13:8)   
      10 “‘Because they lead my people astray, saying, “Peace,” when there is no peace, and because, when a flimsy wall is built, they cover it with whitewash,  (Jer 23:13,17; 1 Thess 5:3) 
      11 therefore tell those who cover it with whitewash that it is going to fall. Rain will come in torrents, and I will send hailstones hurtling down, and violent winds will burst forth. 
      12 When the wall collapses, will people not ask you, “Where is the whitewash you covered it with?”
      13 “‘Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord says: In my wrath I will unleash a violent wind, and in my anger hailstones and torrents of rain will fall with destructive fury. (Ps 18:12,13; Isa 30:30 [Heb 12:1] Ps 147:17,18; Matt 24:30; Rev 11:3,5; Rev 8:7; Matt 7:24,25}  
      14 I will tear down the wall you have covered with whitewash and will level it to the ground so that its foundation will be laid bare. (Matt 7:26,27; 1 Cor 3:10,13)  When it falls, you will be destroyed in it; and you will know that I am the Lord.
      15 So I will pour out my wrath against the wall and against those who covered it with whitewash. I will say to you, “The wall is gone and so are those who whitewashed it,16 those prophets of Israel who prophesied to Jerusalem and saw visions of peace for her when there was no peace, declares the Sovereign Lord.”’ 
      Pearl Doxsey:
      I have come to appreciate, that "walls" stand for doctrines/teachings. Just as the city wall protects the city from their enemies, so do doctrines defend against threats to faith, but they also offer boundaries to keep a "flock" in an enclosure. My point, is that Ezekiel "dug" a hole in the wall. (Ezek 12:4-7) We know the meaning of "digging" (Prov 2:2-5; Matt 13:44), and when we combine these symbols (digging, wall) I take it as scrutiny of teachings (1 John 4:1; 1 Thess 5:21) which weakens a wall of false doctrine, just as digging holes in a literal wall would. We are told (according to this symbolism) that the "wall" of apostate Jerusalem will fall (see Ezekiel 13:10,11,12,14,15), no matter how much they "whitewash" their teachings.
      I am certain of this connection and meaning of "wall", because the fall of Jericho’s wall is inextricably linked with the "end", and to Revelation (Heb 11:30; Luke 21:20; Josh 6:15,20,8; Rev 8:2,6).
      The "wall" of false teachings will "fall", leaving all those within that city defenseless and conquered. The wall they trusted in will fail them.
      (From “Wall/Christ’s Side” 4womaninthewilderness)
      As a child, I was occasionally assigned to clean the chalk boards after school, using water and a large cloth.  Most children rode the bus home to the far reaches of the farming community I lived in. I was one of the few who walked home from school, which gave me the opportunity to stay longer.  I remember the satisfaction of washing away the day’s writings to reveal a clean board, ready for the new day’s teachings. 
      JWs, from the outset, the organization has added layers and layers of decaying interpretations to its doctrines, like smudged chalk accumulating on a dirty chalkboard. This is the reality behind the organization’s new light philosophy.  In its history, it has never returned to the clean pure truth of Christ’s Word. 
      To understand why God allows his people to submit to this powerful delusion, please see:
       “Who is to Blame?”
      “Spreading Tribulation – Tainted or Tested?”
      “Satan’s Fall”
      4womaninthewilderness blogspot
       

    • By Kurt
      Here's something you may not have seen, from the JW archives, a countdown to Armegeddon as we once believed would occur in oct 1914. Our brothers used this to help them keep track on their faith. Just a bit of JW history.
    • By Anna
      Something I thought might be relevant since we are studying the God's Kingdom book. Not long ago, in a WT article, it was mentioned in reference to the "Kingdom being preached in all the inhabited earth" that this will not mean that literally everyone on Earth would have heard about the Kingdom before Armageddon starts.
      When one does a bit of mathematics (not my forte) and calculates the percentage of current Jehovah's Witnesses in comparison to the World's population we arrive at 0.1%. This is a very small percentage indeed. (8 million JW to 8 billion population)
      If we were to assume some averages, and use the United States as a fair example, then we can assume the ratio of 1 publisher to roughly around 400. This seems a fair number since "only a few are the ones finding the road to life". However, as we know, there is practically a non existent ratio when it comes to India and China, two of the world's countries with a population of over 1billion each (the majority of whom have never heard of the Bible, never mind Jehovah's Witnesses).  If we would assume the same ratio of 1:400, then this would immediately create over 3 million Witnesses in each of the two countries, i.e. over 6 million in India and China alone, bringing the total of JWs to over 14 million. If we were to also add 650 thousand in Indonesia, 485 thousand from Pakistan, and 402 thousand from Bangladesh that adds another 1.5 million bringing the total to over 15 million, almost doubling the Witnesses today.
      If we go by the fact that all people are equal in Jehovah's eyes, and that no nation is above another when it comes to salvation, and that all people are basically the same, then we have to assume that there are people in those countries who, if given the chance, would embrace the truth and put themselves on Jehovah's side and create that ratio of 1:400.
      With that in mind, it is evident that either there is going to have to be a lot of preaching done, verging on the miraculous, in order to bring in over 7 million new Witnesses within the allotted time of the "Generation", or, Jehovah will judge their hearts and allow nearly HALF of the people, (agnostics or believers in false Gods) entry into the new world without them even needing to know him.
      Or, is "this Generation" a lot longer than we think.....
      Any scriptural thoughts?
       
    • By Brother Rando
      Being a student of Prophecy and intently studying the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, 1914 is only the beginning of the end. “For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another. ?All these things are a beginning of pangs of distress.” (Matthew 24:7-8)
      In 1914 the world as we know it, has entered into its death throes.  God’s Kingdom would slowly begin crushing all kingdoms of the earth. (Daniel 2:44)  Those inhabiting the earth would enter into an ‘allotted amount of time of distress'. “During that time Michael will stand up, the great prince who is standing in behalf of your people. And there will occur a time of distress such as has not occurred since there came to be a nation until that time. And during that time your people will escape, everyone who is found written down in the book.” (Daniel 12:1)
      What is causing this ‘time of distress’?  “And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled ?but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them any longer in heaven.” (Rev 12:7-8)  “Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to you, having great anger, knowing that he has a short period of time.” (Rev 12:12)  Here’s an important teaching from Jesus Christ, he stated, “For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be.” (Matthew 24:37)  Did you catch that?  So the presence of the Son of man will be.  Jesus Christ has been ruling from Heaven since 1914 and he compared his presence like the days of Noah!  Few people understand this, but the Days of Noah lasted 120 years. (Genesis 6:3)  Jesus continues, “For as they were in those days before the Flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, ?and they took no note until the Flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be.” (Matthew 24:38-39)  Folks, the presence of the Son of man is now 103 years from 1914 and counting.  Yet, the World is taking no note.
      The Last Days must reach their full time allotted, which is 120 years.  1914 + 120 = 2034.   Since the Great Tribulation is Spiritual, many will  fall away from the faith. But it’s during this time period that the one’s separated to the right hand of Christ, will come out of the Great Tribulation as Survivors.  In response one of the elders said to me: “These who are dressed in the white robes, who are they and where did they come from?” (Rev 7:13)
      So right away I said to him: “My lord, you are the one who knows.” And he said to me: “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.” (Rev 7:14)  “Keep on the watch, therefore, because you do not know on what day your Lord is coming.” (Matthew 24:42)
      Armageddon is an act of undeserved kindness of removing the wicked by means of the second death.  Soon, those outside our interior rooms will be dying the second death in the same manner as Adam and Eve. 
       
      For Answers to Your Biblical Questions go to the Jehovah Witness Q & A Forum.  To request a free home Bible Study click 
      Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. .
    • By Israeli Bar Avaddhon
      We are now very close to the great tribulation!
      A brother of the betel was concluding his speech when he made the following comment: " Be intensely busy with the word of God," I would like listening very carefully. We who are in Betel we are privileged to work with the faithful and discreet slave and with the body of directors and I wish know you how he feels the body of directors about the time we live now in this system of things.
      The faithful slave feels that it is already happened to the Matthew 24:14 prophecy: "quest for good news the kingdom's be preached in all the inhabited earth."
      What does the party later this word? He says that ... then the end will come.
      He knew you that there are only three countries in the world where there are no Jehovah's Witnesses?
      ONLY 3 countries!
      Somalia, North Korea and Afghanistan ...
      This does not mean that there does not reach the in our literature to but just that there are not Jehovah's Witnesses. I had mentioned earlier to some friends and they wanted to know why there are no Jehovah's Witnesses in these countries. I 'll tell you the reason.
      Jehovah does not send his people to any place where he knows that van there! * (See footnote)
      But in these three countries the good news have already been published (I guess it refers to the fact that literature is still available).
      Matthew 14, Luke 21, Mark 13, as well as Revelation 6: these words are ending (?)
      So what is the biblical prophecy that still has to fulfill?
      You know what?
      The read for you.
      See Revelation 17: 15-17 - (read the prophecy)
      The faithful slave is waiting for the day Jehovah will put this thought into their hearts.
      This is the next prophecy that must be fulfilled. For those who know what it means, this will cause the great tribulation.
      Once this is fulfilled , the door will be closed (in a spiritual sense).
      Whatever thing you did, you can not go back.
      "I could have done this or that if I had more time."
      Now is the time!
      How will you spend the time you stay?
      For what are you working or are you committed ?
      - in higher education?
      - you are struggling to get more money and material goods?
      - you are engaged in the distractions of the world?
      Or are you undertake to favor the kingdom.?
      We do things urgently, we try to be quick! (Story running on facebook between of various witnesses of Jehovah accounts)
        I want to point out that the aforementioned text is the translation of the translation of a translation and then of specific phrases may have been distorted sense. Apart from that, however, the general sense of the discourse is clear. Assuming that they are not the ravings of some overzealous brother (which still brings out what they believe, more or less openly, many Jehovah's Witnesses), the meaning is as follows. The prophecies have almost all been fulfilled.  
      The preaching was completed.  
      We are just waiting for the fall of Babylon the Great.  
        Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. Our expectations are really in harmony with God's Word?   That's it? Some brother more in later years and with a good memory will recall that statements like these (views from different angles) have already been made in the past. Without wishing to be too argumentative, beyond the past mistakes, it is clear that sooner or later you have to get to the point where it will begin the great tribulation, will fall Babylon the Great, and you will enter the Millennial Kingdom. The fact we were wrong in the past, more than once, this in itself does not prove that you're wrong again. Could it really be so and definitely not wrong to keep alive the sense of urgency - compare Matthew 24:42; Revelation 16:15 Beyond, however, the "hint" that each of us can have, the only thing we should do is search the scriptures to try to understand "what extent we are old" in reference to biblical prophecy. It is true: if we take the writing of Matthew 24:14 and we make an analysis of the presence of our brothers in the world, probably we would come to the same conclusion of the aforesaid brother in the introduction of this article (always assuming that the report is credible). The question, however, end here? Being such an important subject, it would be no need to also examine other scriptures to see if you dial a credible framework or if "something is not right"? Moreover, as the same "slave" has admitted, they are not inspired and therefore we would like to build on something more than a simple "I want you to know how you feel the governing body about the time we live in." The Bible is not "imperfect spiritual food", does not lend itself to corrections or rewards, does not change with time and definitely do not mind - John 17:17; Romans 3: 4; James 1:17; Titus 1: 2 Obviously you are not suggesting that the interpretations of this blog are infallible; far from it. You simply want to emphasize that the Bible is always to have the last word and so we must look for answers there, not in our desires or people that we value - Matthew 4: 4 Some do not even accept the possibility that even those who are taking the lead can go wrong (as if they were human beings). For some to question the statement "slave" is an indication of lack of respect and submission but this is a myopic view of the situation. We know that many times the people of God fed wrong expectations about the future and about the will of God - compares Isaiah 28: 14-19 They were the people of God but this, in itself, did not guarantee the protection and the priests themselves, more often, showed a complete ignorance of the Scriptures - John 3:10 This also happened with good intentions and the best people - compares 1 Samuel 16: 7 Considering the biblical past, trying to see what the Bible says to beyond the proclamation and to everyone who comes , is not it the best? - 1 Thessalonians 5:21; Romans 15: 4; 2 Timothy 3:16, 17 The Lord Jesus Christ himself, the one who was the wisest of all men , and that he could speak of his own initiative, not perhaps did the same? - Matthew 4: 4-10 Questioning certain statements (not for bias, of course) is not a lack of respect towards the index "slave"; on the contrary, it shows profound respect for the one true authority of God's Word - Psalm 31: 5; Acts 17:11 Let us examine the claim that the prophecies would almost all be fulfilled, and we just have to wait the fall of Babylon the Great. The officer says that understanding God's Kingdom was established in heaven in 1914, by 1918 the heavens were purified, in 1919 the heavenly resurrection began (as well as the purification of the people of God) and so on. Perhaps there is some error in this generalization also because of the constant "adjustments" (adjustments that change the periods of a few months, ever the concepts) but roughly this is what you believe.

      In this article you will see just how the logic and writing can corroborate or invalidate these ideas. The official explanation identifies the slaughtered head of death Revelation 13: 3 as the Anglo-American empire. It is true that the book that lists this explanation (the Revelation Its Grand Climax) has now been withdrawn but there is nothing new on the horizon that, until there is a different explanation, this is the ultimate understanding accepted. As we saw this explanation is problematic because the Anglo-American empire, according to official explanations, is the "king of the South" described in the Bible book of Daniel. However in Daniel is the king of the north to win the last war, and so it is obvious that something is not right - Daniel 11: 40-45 Of course we can not say that Daniel and Revelation contradict, does not it? To focus with Daniel Revelation there are only two possibilities. Or the Anglo-American empire is actually the king of the north ** (see note below) or head slaughtered to death that you see in Revelation can not be the Anglo-American empire. Does not it seem logical reasoning? How can the Anglo-American empire (and be the king of the south) if Daniele does understand that the last ruling king, or what will be defeated by Michele, is the king of the north? In Revelation we do not see another political power that defeats the beast that ascends from the sea. After the Great War (which can also have multiple stages), do not talk about other human wars in Revelation, right? - 1 Thessalonians 5: 3 The last war we are talking about and who participates in this beast is against the God Almighty - Revelation 16: 10-14, 16 The conclusion is logical. Apart from the fact that the end will come when the preaching has reached "all the inhabited earth" before this you will see the clash between the king of the north and the king of the south. And must win the king of the north, of course. In the last World War he has probably won the king of the north as well as to assert that "we just have to wait over the fall of Babylon the Great"? Absolutely no. The last king of the north was the Third Reich and, during the battle against the king of the south (the Anglo-American empire, in fact) it came out defeated. This is a prophecy that still has not been fulfilled and it is more than enough to establish that it is not enough that the preaching arrivals in these last three remaining countries. Among other things, the writing of Matthew 24:14 does not give any basis for determining how long the good news has to take place in a given country in order to receive adequate testimony. If tomorrow our brothers  they come in those nations and begin to preach ... how much time would pass until God considered adequate and sufficiently complete that testimony? The answer is simple: we do not know . However, although that has yet to burst the war between the king of the north and king of the south, it is conceivable that in the meantime there are other prophecies that have to be fulfilled or are being fulfilled, is not it? As we have seen in several previous articles before the war should emerge a certain persecution of brothers (you have tribulation, but is not yet the great tribulation ) because the king of the north must start to suppress the daily sacrifice (the preaching work ) until you get to completely suppress it - see Daniel 8: 10-12, 24, 25 In our recent past, the preaching work was perhaps suppressed completely, which it did by means of the king of the north? According to the prophecy, and this must be done only during the last years of the scheme of things it must have a last impulse - compares Revelation 10:11; 14: 6, 7 E 'at this point that the preaching work will reach the ends of the earth, and this will happen very quickly - Zechariah 4: 6 The total suppression of preaching did not happen even during the Second World War and certainly did not happen in all countries; Also this leaves well understand that it is a prophecy to come. There is much more to say but the above should be sufficient, even for those who disagree with the explanations of this blog, to reflect that the Great, "you can not expect only the fall of" Babylon. Who has respect for the Bible itself to be shaped by it. Of course what has been said does not want to show that the end will come "who knows when." In contrast, recent international events suggest that we are far ahead in the end time  All the events described above will occur in a very short time so when we can really begin to come to "raise high head" - Luke 21:28 Those who have lifted up their heads in 1914 all died with a stiff neck but when these things begin to take place (such as the war between the king of the north and king of the south) we can do it peacefully because of this incident until the actual fall of Babylon the Great (which will not be the world empire of false religion ) will spend a maximum of ten years. So us ensure that our expectations are in harmony with the Word of God not to be disappointed - Isaiah 28:16 Us ensure that our expectations are in harmony with the Word of God to be prepared for what's to come and not discouraged - 2 Peter 1:19; Proverbs 24:10 Us ensure that our expectations are in harmony with the Word of God, ultimately, for our lives - Matthew 7:24, 25     Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. The Bible traces the path. It will not lead to disappointment.   Footnote. * The translation was not very clear. ** From previous articles we saw that the Anglo-American empire is indeed the king of the south.
    • By Jack Ryan
      referring to CHAPTER 18 “My Great Rage Will Flare Up” in the new book:
      and in the first picture? at top of study. Mom, Dad and daughter are at the table reading - praying while Gramps is keeping a watchful eye on the streets for recon angel forces ? Perhaps a few cherub paratroopers dropping behind the lines?
    • By Jack Ryan
      Would we just drop dead? Would it be painful? Would we suffer? Would we know? If we die wouldn’t our sins be forgiven anyways cause if not that makes god a liar. No one ever talked About how we would all die
      Arrow to the chest by Jesus on a mighty steed?
    • By Jack Ryan
      Will God kill billions of children?
    • By Jack Ryan
      Panic and escape scene in Moncalieri, but it is the film of Jehovah's Witnesses
      Stampa Newspaper:
      La Stampa (meaning The Press in English) is an Italian daily newspaper published in Turin, Italy. It is distributed in Italy and other European nations. It is one of the oldest newspapers in Italy
    • By Jack Ryan
      The Bible clearly shows where it is written that he himself says he does not. Only the Father knows.
    • By Jack Ryan
      Watchtower, Study Edition, March 15th, 2015
      Loyally Supporting Christ’s Brothers
      Link: https://wol.jw.borg/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2015207
      This article is a doozy. It has many points of interest that carefully play on words, and emotionally manipulate the reader. It really is something.
      Pay special attention to paragraphs 6, 7, 9, 10, 17, and 18.
      These paragraphs clearly highlight anyone who is not an active JW will be judged a goat and be killed. Also, spectacularly, those paragraphs point that if you want to be judged a sheep, meaning to not be killed by God imminently, you need to a)recognize the divine authority of the Governing Body, b) obey the organization unquestioningly, c) preach to recruit new members, and d) give financially to the organization.
      This article sealed the deal for me. I'm sorry but only a cult would wield the fear of divine destruction to demand divinity status, loyalty, obedience, and money.
      Some more source material:
      Gods Kingdom Rules!
      Chapter 21, Paragraph 17
      Link: https://wol.jw.borg/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1102014263#h=25
      Here we are told that the goats, who are comprised of everyone from kings to slaves, will be sent to everlasting cutting off.
      This material is great for discussing how a God of Love could murder billions:
      Watchtower, December 1st, 2005
      Armageddon - A Happy Beginning
      Link: https://wol.jw.borg/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2005881?q=armageddon&p=par
      This wonderful article is a real gem. It compares the murder of billions of human beings, including children, to a home owner exterminating pests. I kid you not. They use the word pest when describing the destruction of people. Real people.
    • By Jesus.defender
      Past tense since the watchtower predicted armageddon so many times?
       
      1877 'The End Of This World; that is the end of the gospel and the beginning of the millennial age is nearer than most men suppose; indeed we have already entered the transition period, which is to be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation Dan. 12:3." (N.H. Barbour and C.T. Russell, Three Worlds, and the Harvest of This World, p. 17).
       
      1888 "In this chapter we present the Bible evidence proving that the full end of the times of the gentiles, i.e., the full end of their lease of dominion, will be reached in A.D. 1914; and that the date will be the farthest limit of the rule of imperfect men. And be it observed, that if this is shown to be a fact firmly established by the Scriptures, it will prove; Firstly, that at that date the Kingdom of God, for which our Lord taught us to pray, saying, Thy Kingdom come, will obtain full, universal control, and that it will then be set up, or firmly established, in the earth, on the ruins of present institutions." (The Time Is At Hand, 1888, p. 76, 77)
       
      1889 "Be not surprised, then, when in subsequent chapters we present proofs that the setting up of the Kingdom of God is already begun, that it is pointed out in prophecy as due to begin the exercise of power in A.D. 1878, and that the 'battle of the great day of God Almighty (Rev. 16:14) which will end in A.D. 1914 with the complete overthrow of earth's present rulership, is already commenced. The gathering of the armies is plainly visible from the standpoint of God's word." (Studies in the Scriptures, Vol. 2, The Time Is At Hand, 1889 Ed., p. 101. The 1915 Edition of this texts changed "A.D. 1914" to read 'A.D. 1915')
       
      1894 "Seventeen years ago people said, concerning the time features presented in Millennial Dawn, They seem reasonable in many respects, but surely no such radical changes could occur between now and the close of 1914: if you had proved that they would come about in a century or two, it would seem much more probable. What changes have since occurred, and what velocity is gained daily? 'The old is quickly passing and the new is coming in.' Now, in view of recent labor troubles and threatened anarchy, our readers are writing to know if there may not be a mistake in the 1914 date. They say that they do not see how present conditions can hold out so long under the strain. We see no reason for changing the figures-nor could we change them if we would. They are, we believe, God's dates, not ours. But bear in mind that the end of 1914 is not the date for the beginning, but for the end of the time of trouble." (Zion's Watchtower, Can It Be Delayed until 1914? C. T. Russell July 15, 1894, Also in Watchtower Reprints, l894 p. 1677)
       
      1894 "A few more years will wind up the present order of things, and then the chastened world will stand face to face with the actual conditions of the established Kingdom of God. And yet the course of the Church is to be finished within the space of time that intervenes." (Watchtower p. 56, 1894)
       
      1894 "We see no reason for changing the figures - nor could we change them if we would. They are, we believe, God's dates, not ours. But bear in mind that the end of 1914 is not the date for the beginning, but for the end of the time of trouble." (Watchtower July 15, 1894, p 266; p 1677 reprints)
       
      1917 'There will be no slip-up...Abraham should enter upon the actual possession of his promised inheritance in the year 1925' (Watchtower Oct. 15, 1917, p. 6157)
       
      1918 "Therefore we may confidently expect that 1925 will mark the return of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and the faithful prophets of old, particularly those named by the Apostle in Hebrews 11, to the condition of human perfection." (Millions Now Living Will Never Die, p. 89)

      1920 '...we may expect 1925 to witness the return of these faithful men of Israel from the condition of death, being resurrected' (Millions Now Living Will Never Die, 1920, p. 88)

      1920 '...we may expect 1925 to witness the return of these faithful men of Israel from the condition of death, being resurrected' (Millions Now Living Will Never Die, 1920, p. 88)
       
      1966 "According to this trustworthy Bible chronology six thousand years from man's creation will end in 1975, and the seventh period of a thousand years of human history will begin in the fall of 1975 C.E Six thousand years of man's existence on earth will soon be up, yea within this generation. The rein of Christ...to run parallel with the 7th millennium ..." (Life Everlasting in Freedom of the Sons of God, 1966, p. 29-30)
       
      1966 "Discussion of 1975 overshadowed about everything else. 'The new book compels us to realise that Armageddon is, in fact, very close indeed,' said a conventioneer." (Watchtower 15/10/1966, p 629)
       
      1968 "Why Are You Looking Forward To 1975?" … "What about all this talk concerning the year 1975? Lively discussions, some based on speculation, have burst into flame during recent months among serious students of the Bible. Their interest has been kindled by the belief that 1975 will mark the end of 6,000 years of human history since Adam's creation. The nearness of such an important date indeed fires the imagination and presents unlimited possibilities for discussion." (Watchtower, Aug. 15, 1968, p. 494)
    • By Israeli Bar Avaddhon
      The 19th and 20th chapters of Revelation will reveal some significant details about the war of Armageddon, and what will happen next.
      These details will include two major changes to the current understanding and, just as happened with the identity of Babylon the Great, this "vision of change" will be a real stumbling block for many Jehovah's Witnesses.
      These chapters will be discussed in the next article, but, facing such a serious change of intent for two more subjects, it was decided to treat them separately in the light of all Scripture. First, we must realize that Revelation speaks of the resurrection at the end of the millennium, and not during the millennium . This will be discussed in detail in due course. For the moment ... you accept this opportunity just to make understandable the theme of this article is to answer the question, exactly, "what countries actually disappear at Armageddon?". It is clear that here we return to the usual "problem" if the book was written in chronological order or not but in the meantime we have seen that the 7 seals are sequential, the 7 trumpets must be sequential (the apostle Paul calls the seventh trumpet the "last trumpet ") and so are the seven bowls of the wrath of God. If all this is sequential ... it is consistent to think that just the last chapters they are not? Let's try to read the whole chapter 20 of Revelation and follow the order of events. Satan is loosed out of his prison, so misleads the nations which are in the corners of the earth, these surround the camp of the saints and then are killed by fire coming down from heaven. After this event, the death and hades return the dead that are in them - Revelation 20: 11-13 The writing of Revelation 20: 4 it says that the rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were finished. " As long as" means "up to the moment when" and not "during" and this would appear to suggest that these thousand years the elect would reign on the survivors of Armageddon and their families but not on any resurrected. The same term, "long" used in Matthew 1:25, we always used to prove that Joseph had no intercourse with his wife Maria until the baby is born .  This should be enough to prove that the resurrection will occur after the end of the millennium , a concept that seems to be repeated in verses 12 and 13. These verses will deepen better but now let's focus on these "rebels" who attack God's people. Who are they and where did they come?   7  Now as soon as they finished the thousand years, Satan will be loosed out of his prison, 8  and will go out to mislead those nations in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them to the war. The number of these is as the sand of the sea. 9  And they advanced over the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10  And the Devil who misled them was hurled into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [had already] the wild beast and the false prophet; They will be tormented day and night forever and ever (Revelation 20: 7-10)   At the end of the thousand years Satan is loosed for "mislead those nations in the four corners of the earth" and gather them for war. It seems incredible that such a thing to happen! It is possible that in the new world people still organize into political nations, that create divisions and even attack the part of that remained faithful people? This is the first case and is roughly the current understanding. Before you think this is nonsense ... it is possible that during the war of Armageddon be spared some of the land also to allow the survival of the people of God? In most parts of the Bible we are told that during the time of judgment his faithful people survives by finding shelter to Edom, Moab and Ammon (which by the way are also the city spared from last World War described in the scripture) - Compare, for example, with Daniel 11:41 Isaiah 16: 4; Psalm 108: 8-10 with Jeremiah 40: 10, 11 These three nations (Edom, Moab and Ammon) were mountainous / hilly and this recalls the words Jesus said to his disciples - Matthew 24: 15, 16 Perhaps the Scripture warns all Christians around the world to flee to the nearest mountains just see the disgusting thing about Israel? In fact, if the destruction of Babylon the Great start should at Armageddon (as we saw) and not the great tribulation, "fleeing to the mountains" mean that Jehovah saves, inevitably, these mountains. In fact, these "mountains" might be a specific location on earth where Jehovah will lead his people just before Armageddon. This or these locations would then be "preserved from judgment." It would not be the first time that Jehovah, in His love and in His mercy, avoid destroy a people on account of his servants. According to the story of Genesis 19:21, 22, the angels of Jehovah avoid destroying Zoar for consideration for Lot yet, from what we understand by reading the whole story, the "small town" was part of Sodom and Gomorrah and had to be destroyed. The war of Armageddon in effect destroys the satanic system composed of the wild beast, the false prophet and his supporters. They fall also all those nations that are compact in the fight against the Lamb. The vast majority of people die in this war because it blinded and marked by the wild beast will die, but those who are not Christians? To the congregation in Philadelphia are told that " would have kept the evidence that has come upon the whole inhabited earth" and for this to happen it is at least conceivable that some Christians find shelter in a "free zone" - Revelation 3:10 If we assume this, then the nations that the end of the millennium they decide to attack the people of God, may arise from these strains survived. Why, in fact, it would make a distinction between them and "the camp of the saints"? There are saints all the inhabitants of the New World? In the new world there will be a "camp of the saints" and a "camp of the saints do not"? Another confirmation could come from the same protection of the Jerusalem above; it is said that "flights in the desert" away from the face of the serpent. When Satan tries to drown her "the land comes to your aid" and this means that at least until the last moment of divine judgment there is still a "stable" part of the world - Revelation 24:15 This could also explain why the resurrection takes place during this millennium; simply because it is still in this new world that we imagine even if it will be a new world, and you will already have many reasons to be happy . Perhaps we should make a distinction between "millennial reign" (which will bring to humanity so many faithful blessings) and "New World" which will begin after the resurrection, when Christ will return the kingdom to his God and Father. This period could simply be a transition period during which human beings can live in peace without the influence of Satan and under the divine teaching guide for those who wish to obey. In fact one of the issues that Satan raised in the garden of Eden, it was if the man was able to govern themselves but the man, with the interference of Satan, you never really ruled alone.   Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. He can man to direct his steps without God and not Satan? Even this must be answered This is linked to the words of Revelation 20: 3; Satan is bound " lest mislead the nations" and that it is necessary to give definitively answer to the issue raised in Eden. However, if all nations were destroyed at Armageddon ... how could he mislead? It would make sense to say that Satan is not tied so misleads the nations that no longer exist? Any nations in the four ends of the earth, born from this strain spared, could prove whether the man is really able to govern themselves under favorable conditions, ie without the influence of Satan. After this human rebellion, which they will have demonstrated consciously prefer the government of Satan unto Jehovah, that Satan is disobedient humanity will be deleted forever. Only after the resurrection of the dead and after their judgment "death and Hades will be cast into the lake of fire" and therefore we should assume that, during the whole millennium, despite favorable conditions, we will continue to age and die? It is unthinkable that the anointed rulers will comply to their priestly functions atoning for the sin of humanity and thus preventing the death of their subjects. Death, however, is still there and still not finally extinguished until the end of the millennium. It will be "the last enemy" to be eliminated in fact, if at the end of the millennium there will still be "enemies to be eliminated" (the nations surrounding the graveyard), this should show that the resurrection, and then the final elimination of death, will occur only after that incident - I Corinthians 15:26 In this regard the writing of I Corinthians 15:24, 25, if read carefully, it seems to specify the order of events, and that is Jesus Christ hands over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing "all government and all authority and power".   Obviously if all government and all authority and power were reduced to nothing during the war of Armageddon, He (Jesus Christ) should hand in their government at that time and that just took over. Let us read these six lines and try to understand its meaning even if "this way" collides blatantly against our most deeply held convictions. Verse 25 says ... " For he must reign until [God] has not put all his enemies under his feet." This would seem to mean that during the millennial reign there will still be enemies. Thus the Kingdom under Christ will be a temporary measure to Jehovah's praise to restore humanity in perfect condition and this may also include the destruction of the last government, authority and power, which until the end will refuse to submit - Revelation 20: 8   Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. Who is to surround the "Saints' Camp" ?
       
      In Ezekiel chapter 38 verses ranging from 8 onwards, it says that you will pay attention to Gog Magog after "many days" and then suggests that they had been left out that is not taken into account or saved during the trial. It seems a contradiction that Gog of Magog exists at the end of satanic system of things and there again in the New World at the end of the millennium ? It makes you think that this "coalition of nations" always has the same name and in fact, in the description of Ezekiel, the subject does not change at all? If Gog of Magog is a coalition of nations, it does not seem strange that nations exist under the reign of Christ? It 'a contradiction only if we take for granted that are destroyed at Armageddon really destroyed all governments and all people. Evidently Gog of Magog  does not exist "again" but he exists "still" (that has never ceased to exist). If you pay attention to him after many days it means that they are always and "many days" are all the years of the millennial kingdom. Gog of Magog always has the same name because it is always the same subject. The people who "accumulates wealth and property" is of course the people of God (the "camp of the saints" according to Revelation) and this indicates the many blessings will God's people during the millennial reign and for contrast with other peoples (why specified that there is a people who accumulate wealth if all accumulate the same wealth?). Blessings that, evidently, will not Gog of Magog otherwise there would be this contrast and there would be no reason to feel envious - Ezekiel 38:12; compares Proverbs 10:22 Why, moreover, there would be this contrast with those who "do not even bar and doors" we are all in a new world of peace, no thieves or other criminals? - Ezekiel 38:11 If you simply read it for what it is, writing really seems to indicate that, during the millennial reign of Christ , there are still people who have bars and doors and they are, obviously, those who have never been interested in the will of God that they must put " bars and doors "and pay attention to their own brothers. The events related to Gog of Magog, described in chapters 38 and 39 of Ezekiel , they are full of interesting details, but one of the things that stands out to the eye is the distinction that exists between them and Israel. It seems, then, that Israel, or the holy people of God, will coexist for a thousand years with these other peoples - Ezekiel 39: 6, 7 At this point the writing of Isaiah 2: 2-4 acquires special significance. So far we have applied this scripture to the people who, accepting the truth today , change behavior and "make their swords plowshares" becoming peaceful people. We also applied to education that will give resurrected in the New World, but let us now reread accepting the possibility of what we have just described.   Isaiah 2: 2-4: " And it must occur in the final part of the days [that] the mountain of the house of Jehovah will become firmly established above the top of the mountains, and it will certainly be lifted up above the hills; and it must stream all nations. 3  And many peoples will certainly go and say, "Come, and let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah, to the house of Jacob; and he will instruct us about his ways, and we will walk in his paths. " For out of Zion shall go forth [the] law, and Jehovah's word from Jerusalem. 4 And he will certainly render judgment among the nations and set matters straight respecting many peoples. And they will have their swords plowshares and their spears into pruning shears. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, neither will they learn war any more. "   The mountain of the house of Jehovah will become firmly established and raised. When? Evidently, when the system of Satan is eliminated and it will be clear that the way to govern Jehovah is the best ever. " For it must stream all the nations," in what sense and what nations? To the People of God are actually many nations flocked to recognizing that the performance could have to do with our days ; However it is possible that, at the end of Armageddon, people of the nations who escaped from the judgment of God (the nations at the four corners of the earth) decide to flow to the mountain of Jehovah . After the incredible events of Armageddon, now it should be clear who is the True God and what His people! Even so, Jehovah is sanctified among the nations. Many people flock and say, "Come, and let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah, to the house of Jacob; and he will instruct us about his ways, and we will walk in his paths "then describes how their initiative and not as someone who has been persuaded through the preaching of the good news. Indeed, they themselves say, " he will instruct us about his ways." We can imagine that many survivors will stream to Jehovah once seen the great signs of Armageddon, abandoning their old nation and making the necessary changes to be accepted by God - Compare Revelation 11:13 and Joshua 9: 8-11 However it is quite easy to imagine that, despite these unmistakable signs of Jehovah's blessing on His people, not everyone will decide to join. So many people continue to stay in their countries, with their governments, refusing to rush to the mountain of Jehovah. Seen in this light, it is not so amazing to imagine that, at the end of the millennium, when the people of God will have accumulated wealth and blessings to no end, these nations organize themselves to "take many spoils" - Ezekiel 38: 10-12 Even the writing of Daniel 2:44 should give pause. The scripture says, " And the days of those kings the God of heaven set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not go to any other people. It will crush all these kingdoms and put an end, and it itself will stand to times indefinite " . Of such realms he is talking about Daniel? If we read the preceding verses we understand that you are talking of the kingdoms that make up the image of a man with the head of gold, chest and arms of silver, belly and thighs of copper, legs of iron and feet of iron and clay . We know very well that these kingdoms are respectively Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome, and according to the current understanding, the Anglo-American empire (but, as we saw in a previous article, the last ruling king must be the king of the north). The same powers, always in the book of Daniel, are described as the lion with the wings of an eagle (ie Babylon described in Daniel 7: 4), the hungry bear with three ribs between the teeth (Media- Persia described in Daniel 7: 5), the leopard with four heads and four wings (the Macedonian or Greek empire described in Daniel 7: 6) and the dreadful and terrible beast with iron teeth and ten horns (Rome and then the last power described in Daniel 7: 7, 8, 19). Because the same realms or domains are viewed in two different ways? This is interesting because the beast that John sees "ascend from the sea" has characteristics of all these beasts - Revelation 13: 1, 2 It is, in fact, like a leopard, has the feet of a bear, the mouth of the lion and the ten horns last seen beast of Daniel. These are the kings that are destroyed by Jesus Christ and his chosen ones at Armageddon, ie the kingdoms that join together in the final battle. It includes course his image (the UN) and the false prophet - Revelation 19:19, 20 It includes all those who have participated in the war, directly or indirectly, and all those who have persecuted or wronged the people of God - Revelation 19:21; Zechariah 2: 8 Surely most of humanity will be killed in this war because the ruler of the world will make sure to have people as possible from her, but this will mean that they will be destroyed all the kingdoms and all the people except the Christians? Even those petty kingdoms, small? Even those isolated from the rest of the world, such as islands or small ethnic groups, including those people who, living in restrictive countries towards religion and other religions, they never had the opportunity to know the wonderful truth of God's word? - See Ezekiel 39: 6 These are questions to ponder. It 'true that the "good news" was preached in all the inhabited earth before the end of satanic system ... but this one has really understood all the people and all they really had the same opportunities? Beyond all human cases the words that should make us think more are those given in Daniel 7:11, 12. The scripture says ... "I beheld then because of the sound of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld till the beast was slain and his body was destroyed and it was given to the burning fire. 12  But as for the rest of the beasts, their domains were removed, and was granted a prolongation of life for a time and a season. "   What does this mean and how long "a time and a season"? Meanwhile the context we see that horn that speaketh great things is referred to the "dreadful and terrible beast," that is, the last beast of Daniel's vision. We talk about the period in which "are places of thrones" and "the Ancient of days" sits to judge and therefore can only refer to the time when Jehovah and Christ took power - Revelation 11: 15-18 It is said that the beast is killed and his body is given to the burning fire - Compare Revelation 19:19, 20 It's clear that the writing is referring to the wild beast of Revelation at the time of his judgment yet, after specifying that the beast is given to the burning fire (that was destroyed), verse 12 says ... " But as for the rest of the beasts, their domains were removed, and was granted a prolongation of life for a time and a season " . This specifies very clearly that the other domains are not destroyed but it allows them to continue to exist for some time after the judgment of Armageddon . Let's stop for a moment and re-read carefully these last four lines comparing the cited scriptures. In fact if we carefully read Revelation 19: 19-21 we see that the wild beast, the kings of the earth and their armies gather to make war against Jesus Christ and his army is destroyed but who among all these? The scripture says that is taken the wild beast and the false prophet and cast into the lake of fire. Then, verse 21 says "the rest were killed with the long sword of him that sat on the horse, which [] sword came from his mouth." The remaining whom? The involved subjects are two: the kings of the earth and their armies . Saying "the remaining" the vision refers to kings, their armies or both? If he was referring to both the writing of Daniel specifies that the domains of these kings are simply removed , not destroyed. Surely those who die are in that position (armies, any general or king) in fact, the scripture says that "being killed" but they do not say which end up in the lake of fire. We know that the lake of fire means the second death, and that is a place where you do not back then we have the assurance that the wild beast is destroyed, never to return but the "other" are not uprooted from the earth. Not yet. They killed those who at this moment are making war with the Lamb, but apparently will remain something of their reigns, that the nations belonging to these "remaining" to which an extension for a time and a season was granted. These will have a thousand years of time to recover and at least part of them, fairly numerous in the words of Revelation 20: 8, will attack God's people at the end of the millennium. Gog of Magog existed before Armageddon and will exist after. Finally, as we have seen, after the destruction of these enemies there is still a "last enemy" to be eliminated: the death - See I Corinthians 15:26 This confirms the sequence of events of Revelation
    • By Israeli Bar Avaddhon
      In our path of study of the prophecies, as already seen in various previous articles, we will have come across something that we would not have believed possible. The understanding of Babylon the Great, as well as that concerning Armageddon, the Jerusalem above or the Heavenly Jerusalem, have indeed constituted great changes in the official understanding of Jehovah's Witnesses. We can not ignore the chain effects that these "changes of vision" have produced and continue to produce on many other more or less important doctrines. The author of this blog would like above all to clarify that all the theses presented so far have never been considered inspired or infallible and therefore each reader is invited to make their own evaluations (and maybe to contribute) by comparing and meditating on the Scriptures without any injury. At the same time, however, the author is equally convinced that the articles showed respect for the Bible and used it as a guide and supreme authority. Every affirmation, whenever it was possible, was accompanied or confirmed by one or more Scriptures and therefore, although certain arguments went against the official teaching, it was decided to do so in good conscience. The possible firm conviction of the author as well as certain categorical expressions used are exclusively due to this: the support of the Scriptures - John 17:17; 2 Timothy 3:16, 17; 2 Corinthians 10: 4, 5 The article that will be developed now, will also consist of a significant change of vision and we will see how, changing the conditions, real or possible scenarios become real that, until the day before yesterday, we would have considered really far-fetched - Job 42 :2; Mark 10:27 The wisest thing that each of us can do is to evaluate that every thesis presented is really in harmony with the Scripture, and nothing else, without closing up in shell or reshaping the power of God to what we think possible - Mark 12:24 ; Job 38: 4 Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. What do we know, with certainty, of the battle of Armageddon?     What do we know about the Armageddon war? Speaking of the war of the great day of the Almighty God, what do we know for sure? - 1 Thessalonians 5:21 Well, we know that it is not total destruction due to a human war, a solar flare, a meteorite or other Hollywood nonsense - Isaiah 45:18; Psalm 78:69; Ecclesiastes 1: 4 We know it is the crucial war in which God takes revenge on his enemies and on the enemies of His people - Psalm 2: 3-6; Sofonia 1:18; Zechariah 2: 8 We also know that it is the occasion when Jehovah is magnified and makes himself known to the nations - Ezekiel 36:22, 23 It is the war that will free His people from oppression and slavery and will finally begin the Millennial Kingdom - Exodus 15: 11-13; Revelation 7:10 These are reliable informations. For the rest, when it will happen, what means it will use, which scenario will present itself just before the outbreak of this war, etc., only assumptions are made. One of these assumptions, which seems to have a strict logic, is that the place in Hebrew is called Har-Maghedon, is not a literal place but a situation. In practice it would be the situation in which all the enemies of God find themselves fighting against His People, wherever they are. This conclusion seems absolutely logical because how could a war of such proportions, which should encompass all of humanity and therefore billions of people, take place in such a small geographical area? It is absurd to even think about it. However, before closing our faculties of perception on any contrary subject we try to consider the following - James 1:19 First of all we have seen that the war between the king of the north and the king of the south, which is a prophecy to come, could greatly reduce the number of people present on earth including their armies - compare Revelation 6: 3, 7, 8 It's a raw topic we would not like to talk about but the prophecies seem clear. This topic has been dealt with in various previous articles, including the one entitled "Who is the horn that became very great?". Furthermore, as we saw in the article titled "Which nations disappear in Armageddon?" We know that the war of Armageddon will not destroy all nations and people on the planet. This war will indeed destroy the satanic system which includes the savage beast, the kings of the earth and their armies - 1 John 3: 8 Seen from this point of view, perhaps the fact that this war can be fought in a specific and relatively restricted place becomes a possibility? Furthermore it is necessary to make a couple of clarifications. Har-Magedon, which means "Mountain of Megiddo", is not a specific reference to that "tell" that you see in Volume 1 of the book "Insight" (page 953 in the edition in Italian). What you see in photography is what remains of ancient Megiddo, a small hill built on 26 layers of ruins of ancient cities. That is "Megiddo" but where's the mountain? Since there is no mountain called "Mount of Megiddo" we try to make assumptions without prematurely concluding that the whole argument is symbolic. Megiddo is located at the entrance of the pass through the chain of Mount Carmel, which overlooks the valley of Esdraelon from the south-west. So the Mount of Megiddo might be Mount Carmel (compare 1 Kings 18:19, 20, Jeremiah 46:18, Amos 1: 2; 9: 3; Naum 1: 3, 4) and could include all the hilly countryside that surrounds the valley of Megiddo, one hundred kilometers north of Jerusalem, including the valley of Esdraelon. Space is noticeable, but before assuming any calculation, we try to ask ourselves according to what logic or why the kings of the earth should / could be there. To a superficial judgment it would seem a stupid thing. The kings of the earth and their armies will not be able to fight against Christ and his elect (though they will try to - compare Revelation 19:19, 20) and so it is evident that they will take it upon His people. Why, then, to concentrate in one area of the earth (whatever it is) to try to destroy the people of God if it is found in all the inhabited earth? Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. we have seen that the earth chosen by God for His people is still the Promised Land and the gathering of Israel will be literal.
      The article in part said, "When nations have run out of time, including both the trampling of Jerusalem and the persecution, Armageddon will begin to destroy this beast and all the compact peoples in the fight against the Lamb. At that moment Jerusalem will have been freed and the people of God, after the necessary period spent in the "inner rooms", will be able to go to that country which is still part of the promise and where in a short time it will begin to flow milk and honey - Isaiah 26: 20 " What have we seen so far? We have seen that Babylon the Great is modern apostate Israel but this has to do with the people who occupy it, certainly not with the geographical area which, in itself, can not have merit or guilt - Zechariah 5: 6-8 So, once Israel is liberated from Babylon the Great, Jehovah will bring His people back to that land that bears His name and will be inhabited from generation to generation - Joel 3:20 The crucial question is therefore: will this rallying and consequent exodus to the Promised Land begin after Armageddon or its approach? Some scriptures suggest that this happens just before the final battle. How can we say it? We have seen that during the last war between the king of the north and the king of the south, some nations are able to escape - see Daniel 11:41 The writing mentions Edom, Moab and Ammon and, coincidentally, these are the same nations in which a part of the people of Israel found shelter in the past - compare Psalm 60: 8, 9; Isaiah 16: 4; Jeremiah 40:11 The logical conclusion is that the people of God who survived the war, since they will have to live again Israel now liberated by the Great Whore, are in the vicinity of the Promised Land at least some time before the final battle. This situation would also be similar to what happened in the past but on a much larger scale. If the meeting takes place before Armageddon, then it becomes logical and plausible that the "kings of the earth" will gather in the place that in Hebrew is called Har-Maghedon. This is done to prevent the achievement of the Promised Land (and kill them all at once - compares Psalm 2: 1-6) or simply to kill them once they reach. This hypothesis makes reasonable not only the literal gathering of kings and armies but also the specific place of the gathering. Let's try, for a moment, to read Revelation as if it were the first time and as if they had not taught us anything. The writing says “And I saw three unclean inspired expressions Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. that looked like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. and out of the mouth of the wild beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet. Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.  They are, in fact, expressions inspired by demons and they perform signs, Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. and they go out to the kings of the entire inhabited earth, to gather them together to the war Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. of the great day of God the Almighty ( ... ) And they gathered them together to the place that is called in Hebrew Armageddon" – Revelation 16:13, 14, 16 Without doing any disquisition on what terms and what it means, the first image that would come to mind are the kings who are gathered together somewhere, is not it? In fact, the writing says that these frogs "gathered them", which makes one think that these kings are heading towards a specific place. After all we have never done any disquisitions on the idea that these frogs actually go to the kings of the earth; we have never hypothesized that their "going to" the kings of the earth was symbolic because it is evident that, if these kings live in different and distant nations, these frogs have to go or go towards them. But we have re-discussed that the kings go somewhere. So frogs go literally (they must reach these kings) while kings go in a symbolic sense. That is, they do not go anywhere. The question that would be spontaneous to those who did not know anything about the issues at stake would be ... "Why do the kings of the earth, at the approach of the war, go to the place called Har-Maghedon (whatever place it is)?" In a war scenario, the answer would become simple: because the object of contention is in that area or near that area. Any nation that would place its army on the borders of another nation would send a strong and clear message. He is preparing for the war. In this case, however, the question does not concern the conquest of the territory of Israel but the extermination of the people who intend to live there - Psalm 2: 1-4 Finally we must distinguish the kings of the earth from their armies. The writing of Revelation says that only the kings of the earth are gathered at Har-Maghedon. How many will be the kings of the earth, following their ministers, their officials in various capacities, their bodyguards, etc? A few thousand? A few tens of thousands? Is the entire hilly area of Carmel and the valley of Esdraelon it’s sufficient to accommodate a few tens of thousands of people? Obviously yes, even only the Carmel. Where will the armies be and for which aircraft will they be extended? We do not have a precise answer but we can make some reasoning based on what we know from the scriptures. The simple distinction, which perhaps few have noticed, between the kings of the earth and their armies, should make every hypothesis fall "of the impossibility of the event" because if the Bible does not specify the area of armies extension they could really be hundreds of millions and even billions of people. The final battle would take place "around the Mount of Megiddo" for an indefinite area (why could not they cover all of Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Egypt, Syria and Iraq for example?) God's people would still be surrounded, the writing would not it would fail and Jehovah would rise above the nations. So, regardless of all the reasoning we have just made, if the Bible does not specify the extent of the armies deployed against the people of God, all the discourse on the secure symbolic nature of writing lapses or at least is not as reasonable as it initially seemed. We will try however to "build" the extension of this army only on the basis of what we know and keeping as close as possible so that all the talk will acquire heaviness and it is really the Bible to speak - Romans 3: 4 Regarding the last dominant king described in Daniel chapters 11 and 12 we know that he will place his tents "between the great sea and the holy Mount of the Adornment" - Daniel 11:45 After this event "he will have to come to his end, and there will not be a rescuer for him" and then it is understood that "pitching the tents" is the last action he performs before his final destruction. We have also seen that the destruction of Babylon the Great (or the nation of Israel) is the prelude to Armageddon and not to the great tribulation. As a result, the army of the last ruling king should already be present on the territory of Israel before the final battle * (see footnote). He simply has to wait for all the others to come (it is to be noted, in fact, that the writing which calls for the gathering of the kings of the earth at Har-Maghedon makes no mention of the wild beast. He is not mentioned because he is among the kings or simply because it is already there?). However, for the moment we do not know whether this immense army will stand as a shield to prevent Israel from entering or whether it will wait for "the people gathered from all the earth" to actually enter the country and then surround it - see for example Joel 3: 9- 12; Nehemiah 6:16; Psalm 44:13; 59: 5, 6; 76:11, 12; 97: 1-3; Jeremiah 1: 14-16; 6:25; 25: 9; Lamentations 1:17 For the moment we can imagine both situations since concepts do not change. So, to obstruct any access to the coming people, the armies will have to cover Israel at least for its entire length. Does this seem reasonable to you? So we have to hypothesize an extension that goes from the Great Sea (the Mediterranean) to the Mount of the Adornment west of Israel and an extension at least similar to the east side of Israel (in terms of width). So a length at least equal to that of Israel if not more. What area are we talking about? We can only make an estimate but a territory equal to twice the current Israel should cover an area of 45 / 50,000 square kilometers. With this in mind, let us now assume how powerful this army could be. A site makes a list of the ten most numerous armies (updated to 2015). This is the list with the respective numbers.   CHINA (number of staff: 2.285.000). UNITED STATES (1.458.000). INDIA (1.325.000) NORTH KOREA (1.106.000) RUSSIA (1.027.000) TURKEY (666,500) SOUTH KOREA (639,000). PAKISTAN (617,000) IRAN (523,000). EGYPT (468,000)   The total number of staff would be just over ten million people. We also consider that, as we saw at the beginning, the war between the kings of the north and the king of the south by then will have greatly reduced the numbers and at least a part of the nations listed above may not exist anymore. For the benefit of the numbers, however, it must be said that in case of conflict the "effective" would not be the only ones to go to war. The numbers could be greatly underestimated (it is doubtful, in fact, that the official numbers correspond to the real ones). Finally we must consider that this is the last move of Satan before being thrown into the abyss for a thousand years so he would have every interest in making the armies as numerous as possible. So we multiply by five these numbers and assume that the final attack includes 50 million armed soldiers to the teeth. The area we estimated could contain fifty million people? Yes and fairly well if we consider that these people are not there to live or stay but simply as soldiers waiting to launch a furious attack. Every soldier would have a living space of about one square meter. Do you remember the photographs in which Hitler had his huge troops? In those large gatherings there were probably three or four people every square meter. Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.   In Hitler's huge gatherings there were probably 3 or 4 people per square meter   It is evident that we are making assumptions and the estimates, both of the army and of the militarized area, could vary a lot, but the point we want to illustrate is simply one. Despite the ideas that we made about the war of Har-Magedon, and how they are rooted in us, we can not exclude that the final battle takes place in this geographical area and that it will prove to be the biggest fight in the history of humanity. Indeed, the scriptures mentioned in support of the argument suggest that this is not simply a possibility. Any new understanding, however, can make other scriptures harmonious or create forcing. Forcing should be an indicator that "something is wrong". What happens with the other scriptures, understanding that the place of the final battle will be a specific and relatively restricted place? Meanwhile, as we have mentioned, this situation would be very similar to several biblical episodes we know - see for example Exodus 14: 10-14; 2 Kings 18: 19-25 Jehovah would be exalted in the midst of the nations precisely because, not being really all destroyed, the distant peoples and nations would speak of this event with terror and for centuries - compare Joshua 2: 9-11; Deuteronomy 2:25; Psalm 112: 10 Isaiah 63: 1-6 describes Jehovah coming from Edom who, as we have seen, is one of the places where God's people find refuge, and from there he begins to "tread peoples into His wrath." Psalm 2: 2 describes all the peoples and national groups united "as one man" and this gives the idea that the rulers of the earth, and therefore their armies, are effectively gathered somewhere as one army, a single mass and compact. Finally (but not "finally" because you will find many other similarities if you want to look for them) suddenly becomes clear why the king of the north is troubled because of news from the east and the north - see Daniel 11:44 So far what have we been told? In other words ... we have been told that we do not know. In the book "Pay attention to the prophecies of Daniel" on page 283 (Italian edition) we speak of Gog of Magog (among other things in the understanding that it is Satan the Devil) and paragraph 26 concludes with the words "But what at the end they will contain the news from the east and from the north only God will establish it and time will tell it ". Instead, understanding the scenario that will be created shortly before the final battle we can guess why this king is so upset. He sees the people of God, who evidently believed he had eliminated, gathered and on their way to the Promised Land! Depict the scene. It is easy to imagine that he understands that there is God, the True God and not the farce built by the false prophet behind all this. Despite his immense power and his fury, he has not succeeded in eliminating the people of God who are now reaching the Promised Land in fulfillment of Bible prophecy. It is not surprising that this causes great anger in him and comes out "with great fury to annihilate and to vote many to destruction", or the people of God gathered there - Daniel 11:43 And this explains why he "will pitch the tents of his palace between [the] great sea and the holy mount of the Adornment". Let's take a moment to imagine the scene and see us there, intent on reaching the promised land as the Israelites were in the time of Moses. Perhaps we may find ourselves imprisoned between the Great Sea and the army or we may be a few kilometers from the border and see "men of extraordinary stature" - Numbers 13:33 Perhaps some of us, seeing such a colossal army, might doubt Jehovah's power or his will to protect us - Isaiah 43:10, 11 Try to imagine how many situations described in the Bible would become the mirror of those last moments of the system of things. It is not difficult to see the harmony of the Word of God and to understand what will happen if we free ourselves from our conditioning and do not associate the word "impossible" with God. Is not it a wonderful prospect? One day, towards the end of the terrifying events that will occur on earth, someone will call us to lead us to the Promised Land, but the journey will be reserved only for those who will understand the prophecy and act accordingly. Next stop: Israel. Take the ticket. Make reservations now. The forecasts say that the area will be quite crowded.     Footnote. The article entitled "1290 and 1335 days" shows a difference of 45 days between trampling on God's people and achieving his "happiness" - see Daniel 12:12 These 45 days could include the time of the gathering of the people of God and the consequent exodus that will lead them to cross the boundaries of the Promised Land.   It is necessary to specify that even if the lowering of the waters of the Euphrates has to do with the destruction of these peoples and not simply with the loss of the defenses, this could refer to the peoples that surround Israel and not with Israel - compare Joel 3 : 4 This could mean that the payment of the sixth cup of the angel is not yet the actual destruction of Babylon the Great and therefore the people of Israel might still be alive and active when God's people approach it to "repopulate". As strange as this may seem, this seems to be in harmony with Revelation 16:19 which says that God would have remembered Babylon "to give it the cup of wine of the fury of his wrath" and by reading the context this happens during or near of the judgment of armageddon - compare Revelation 16:13 Other Bibles translate in a similar way and therefore it would seem evident that when nations gather in Armageddon, God still has to pour his wrath upon Babylon the Great. If this understanding is correct, when the king of the north "will come out with great fury to annihilate and vote many to destruction" it is possible that in his blinding fury he will strike first the nation that had always been their lover - compare Revelation 18 : 10, 15, 18 (see also Zechariah 14:13, 14) And obviously this will happen by God's will - Revelation 17:17 This possibility makes very probable the situation in which the people of God are effectively blocked between Israel (still populated) and all the armies of the world.  
    • By Israeli Bar Avaddhon
      Chapters 19 and 20 of Revelation will unveil some significant details about the war of Armageddon and what will happen next. These details will include two major changes to the current understanding and, just as happened with the identity of Babylon the Great, this "change of vision" will be a real stumbling block for many Jehovah's Witnesses. These chapters will be examined in the next article but, faced with such a serious change of understanding for two other subjects, it was decided to treat them separately in the light of the whole Scripture. First of all we must realize that the Revelation speaks of the resurrection at the end of the millennium, and not during the millennium. This will be dealt with in detail in due course. For the moment ... accept this possibility only to make the theme of this article comprehensible, which must answer the question, in fact, "which nations disappear in Armageddon?". It is clear that here we return to the usual "problem" if the book was written in chronological order or not but meanwhile we saw that the 7 seals are sequential, the 7 trumpets must be sequential (the apostle Paul calls the seventh trumpet "the last trumpet") and so also the seven cups of the wrath of God. If all this is sequential ... is it consistent to think that just the last chapters are not? Let's try to read the whole chapter 20 of Revelation and follow the order of events. Satan is dissolved from his prison, then misleads the nations that are at the corners of the earth, these surround the field of saints and then are killed by fire coming down from the sky. After this event, the death and hades return the dead that are in them - Revelation 20: 11-13 The writing of Revelation 20: 4 says that the rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were over. "Until" means "up to the moment" and not "during" and this would mean that in these thousand years the elect would rule on the survivors of Armageddon and their families, but not the resurrected ones. The same term, "until", used in Matthew 1:25, we have always used it to show that Joseph did not have relations with his wife Marie until the birth of the child. This should be sufficient to show that the resurrection will take place after the end of the millennium, a concept that seems to be reaffirmed in verses 12 and 13. We will go deeper into these verses but now let's focus on these "rebels" who attack the people of God. Who are they and where did they come from? Revelations 20:7-10 says... "Now as soon as the 1,000 years have ended, Satan will be released from his prison, Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.  and he will go out to mislead those nations in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Ma?gog, to gather them together for the war. The number of these is as the sand of the sea. Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.  And they advanced over the whole earth and encircled the camp of the holy ones and the beloved city. But fire came down out of heaven and consumed them. Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.  And the Devil who was misleading them was hurled into the lake of fire and sulfur, where both the wild beast Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. and the false prophet already were; Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. and they will be tormented Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. day and night forever and ever". At the end of a thousand years, Satan is dissolved to "mislead those nations that are in the four corners of the earth" and gathers them to war. It seems really incredible that something like that happens! Is it possible that in the new world people still organize themselves in political nations, that create divisions and that even attack the part of that people remained faithful? This is the first hypothesis and roughly represents the current intention. Before thinking that it is nonsense ... is it possible to hypothesize that during the Armageddon war a part of the earth is spared also to allow the survival of the people of God? In several parts of the Bible it is said that during the time of judgment his faithful people escapes finding shelter to Edom, Moab and Ammon (which by the way are also the cities spared from the world war) - Compare for example Daniel 11:41 with Isaiah 16: 4; Psalm 108: 8-10 with Jeremiah 40: 10, 11 These three nations (Edom, Moab and Ammon) were mountainous / hilly and this recalls the words Jesus spoke to his disciples - Matthew 24: 15, 16 Does Scripture warn all Christians in the world to flee to the nearest mountains as soon as they see the disgusting thing about Israel? Indeed, if the destruction of Babylon the Great gave rise to Armageddon (as we have seen) and not to the great tribulation, "fleeing the mountains" would mean that Jehovah would save these mountains by force of things. In fact these "mountains" could be a specific locality of the earth where Jehovah will lead his people just before Armageddon. This or these locations would then be "preserved by judgment". It would not be the first time that Jehovah, in his love and mercy, avoids destroying a certain people because of his servants. According to the account of Genesis 19:21, 22, the angels of Jehovah avoid destroying Zoar for consideration of Lot, and yet, from what is understood by reading the whole story, that "little city" was part of Sodom or Gomorrah and therefore had to be destroyed. The war of Armageddon actually destroys the satanic system composed of the wild beast, the false prophet and his supporters. All those nations that are compact in fighting against the Lamb also fall. The vast majority of people die in this war because blinded and branded by the wild beast but will die all those who are not Christians? The Philadelphia congregation is told that "it would be preserved by the test that must come on the entire inhabited earth" and that this can be done at least hypothesizes that some Christians find shelter in a "free zone" - Revelation 3:10 If we can hypothesize this, then the nations that at the end of the millennium decide to attack the people of God, could be born from these surviving strains. Why, in fact, would you make a distinction between them and "the field of saints"? Are not all the inhabitants of the new world "saints"? In the new world will there be a "field of saints" and a "field of non-saints"? Another confirmation could come from the very protection of Jerusalem above; it is said to "fly in the desert" far from the face of the serpent. When Satan tries to make her drown "the earth comes to her aid" and this means that at least until the last moment of divine judgment there is still a "stable" part of the world - Revelation 12:15 This could also explain why the resurrection does not take place during this millennium; simply because you are not yet in that new world that we imagine even if it will already be a new world and you will already have many reasons to be happy. We should probably make a distinction between "millennial reign" (which will bring many blessings to faithful humanity) and "new world" that will begin after the resurrection, at the moment when Christ returns the kingdom to his God and Father. This period could simply be a period of transition during which human beings can live in peace without the influence of Satan and under the guidance of divine teaching for all those who wish to obey. In fact, one of the questions Satan raised in the Garden of Eden was precisely if man was able to govern himself but man, with the interference of Satan, he never really ruled alone.   Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.     Can man direct his steps without God and without Satan? Also to this we must answer   This is related to the words of Revelation 20: 3; Satan is bound "not so misleads the nations" and that it is necessary to give definitively answer to the issue raised in Eden. However, if all the nations were destroyed at Armageddon ... how could he mislead them? Would it make sense to say that Satan is bound to keep the nations that no longer exist? Possible nations in the four corners of the earth, born of this spared stock, could show if man is really able to govern himself in favorable conditions, that is without the influence of Satan. After this last human rebellion, which will have consciously shown that they prefer Satan's government to that of Jehovah, both Satan and disobedient humanity will be eliminated forever. Only after the resurrection of the dead and after their judgment "death and Ades will be thrown into the lake of fire" and therefore we should assume that, throughout the millennium, despite having favorable conditions, we will continue to age and die? It is unthinkable because the anointed rulers will fulfill their priestly functions by expiating the sin of humanity and thus preventing the death of their subjects. Death that, however, will always be lurking and not yet permanently eliminated until the end of the millennium. It will be "the last enemy" to be eliminated in fact, if at the end of the millennium there will still be "enemies to be eliminated" (the nations surrounding the holy field), this should demonstrate that the resurrection, and therefore the definitive elimination of death, it will happen only after that event - I Corinthians 15:26 In this regard the writing of I Corinthians 15:24, 25, if read carefully, seems to specify the order of events, that is, Jesus Christ will deliver the Kingdom to his God and Father when he has reduced to nothing "every government and every authority and power". Obviously if every government and every authority and power were reduced to nothing during the war of Armageddon, He (Jesus Christ) should deliver the government at that very moment, that is, when he had just taken power. Let's reread these last six lines and try to understand their meaning even if "this meaning" goes out blatantly against our most deeply rooted convictions. Verse 25 says ... "For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet". This would seem to mean that there will still be enemies during the millennial reign. So the Kingdom ruled by Christ will be a temporary provision to Jehovah's praise to bring humanity back to perfection and this can also include the destruction of the last governments, authorities and powers, which will ultimately refuse to submit - Revelation 20: 8   Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.   Who will truly surround the "field of saints"?     In Ezekiel chapter 38 the verses from 8 on wards it is said that attention will be paid to Gog of Magog after "many days" and therefore suggests that these had been left out that is not taken into account or spared during of judgment. Does not it seem a contradiction that Gog of Magog exists at the end of the satanic system of things and exists again in the new world at the end of the millennium? Does it not reflect that this "coalition of nations" always has the same name and indeed, in the description of Ezekiel, does not the subject change at all? If Gog of Magog is a coalition of nations, does not it seem strange that nations are formed under the reign of Christ? It is a contradiction only if we take for granted that all governments and all people are really destroyed in Armageddon. Evidently Gog of Magog does not exist again but it still exists (ie it has never ceased to exist). If "pay attention to him" after many days it means that they are always theirs and the "many days" are all the years of the millennial reign. Gog of Magog always has the same name because it is always the same subject. The people who "accumulate wealth and property" are obviously the people of God (the "field of saints" according to Revelation) and this indicates the many blessings that God's people will have during the millennial reign and the contrast with other peoples (why specify that there is a people that accumulates wealth if all accumulate the same riches?). Blessings that, apparently, will not have Gog of Magog otherwise there would be no such contrast and there would be no reason to feel envy - Ezekiel 38:12; compare Proverbs 10:22 Why, moreover, would there be this contrast with those who "do not even bar and doors" if we are all in a new world of peace, without thieves or other criminals? - Ezekiel 38:11 If read simply for what it is, the scripture really seems to indicate that, during the millennial reign of Christ, there still exist peoples who have bars and doors and are evidently those who have never been interested in the will of God for whom they must put " bars and doors" and pay attention to their own brothers. The events related to Gog Magog, described in chapters 38 and 39 of Ezekiel, are full of interesting details but one of the things that stands out right now is the distinction between them and Israel. It therefore seems that Israel, or the holy people of God, will live together with these other peoples for a thousand years - Ezekiel 39: 6, 7 At this point the writing of Isaiah 2: 2-4 acquires a particular meaning. So far we have applied this writing to people who, by accepting the truth today, change their behavior and "make their swords into plowshares" by becoming peaceful people. We have also applied it to the instruction that will be given to the resurrected in the New World, but let us now try to reread it by accepting the possibility of what we have just described. Isaiah 2: 2-4: "In the final part of the days, Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. The mountain of the house of Jehovah Will become firmly established above the top of the mountains, Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. And it will be raised up above the hills,And to it all the nations will stream. Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.   Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.  And many peoples will go and say: “Come, let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah,To the house of the God of Jacob. Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. He will instruct us about his ways,And we will walk in his paths.” Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. For law Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. will go out of Zion,And the word of Jehovah out of Jerusalem. Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.   Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.  He will render judgment among the nations And set matters straight Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. respecting many peoples. They will beat their swords into plowshares And their spears into pruning shears. Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, Nor will they learn war anymore".   The mountain of Jehovah's house will be firmly established and raised. When? Evidently when the Satan system is eliminated, it will be clear that Jehovah's way of governing is the best ever. "All nations must flow to it", in what sense and which nations? Many nations have indeed flowed into the people of God, for whom it is recognized that fulfillment could have something to do with our days; nevertheless, it is possible that, at the end of Armageddon, people of the nations survived by the judgment of God (the peoples at the four corners of the earth) decide to flow to the mountain of Jehovah. After the incredible events of Armageddon, it should by now be clear who the True God is and what His people are. In this way, too, Jehovah is sanctified in the midst of the nations. Many people flow and say, "Come, and let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will instruct us about his ways, and we will certainly walk in his paths" so it's describes as their own initiative and not as someone who has been persuaded through the preaching of the good news. Indeed, they themselves are saying "he will instruct us around his ways". We can imagine that many survivors will flow to the mountain of Jehovah once they have seen the great signs of Armageddon, abandoning their old nation and making the necessary changes to be accepted by God - Compare Revelation 11:13 and Joshua 9: 8-11 Yet it is easy enough to imagine that, despite these unequivocal signs of Jehovah's blessing on His people, not everyone will decide to be part of it. So many people will continue to stay in their nations, with their governments, refusing to rush to Jehovah's mountain. Seen from this perspective, it is no longer so incredible to imagine that, at the end of the millennium, when God's people have accumulated riches and blessings to no end, these nations organize themselves to "take many spoils" - Ezekiel 38: 10-12 Even the writing of Daniel 2:44 should make us reflect. The writing says: "“In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. that will never be destroyed. Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. And this kingdom will not be passed on to any other people. Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. and it alone will stand forever". What realms is Daniel talking about? If we read the preceding verses we understand that we are talking about the kingdoms that make up the image of a man with a golden head, chest and arms of silver, belly and thighs of copper, legs of iron and feet of iron and clay . We know very well that these kingdoms are respectively Babylon, Media-Persia, Greece, Rome and, according to current understanding, the Anglo-American empire (but, as we saw in a previous article, the last dominant king must be the king of the north). The same powers, also in the book of Daniel, are described as the lion with the wings of an eagle (or Babylon described in Daniel 7: 4), the ravenous bear with three ribs between the teeth (Media- Persia described in Daniel 7: 5), the leopard with four heads and four wings (the Macedonian or Greek em