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Jehovah’s Witnesses have always claimed with absolute certainty that Armageddon is just a few years away. 140 some years later, it still hasn’t happened. What makes them think it’ll still happen?

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1 hour ago, The Librarian said:

Question sent in for me to post.

Agape!

 

When  i started studying, all those years ago, I was taught that each Creative day was 7,000 years long. And that God's 'rest day' would also be 7,000 years. The teaching being that humans would live for 6,000 years then Armageddon would come. Then the 1,000 year reign of Christ, then he would hand back everything to Jehovah. 

I think the end of the 6,000 years was 1975. but of course, no Armageddon. 

It seems now the teaching is that they have no idea how long a Creative Day was. It would seem logical then that they have no idea when Armageddon will come. But they have to keep frightening people to keep them in the JW Org. 

( So did God tell the 'Faithful Slave' lies then ? Or were they just telling the congregants lies ?) 

Even though I've left the Org i still believe Judgement Day will happen, as it's part of God's word.. The world is in so much mess and governments want to keep it that way. War is big business and keeps people in employment and under control. Immorality has sunken so much lower and in greater quantity. Over population, racism, hunger, floods, earthquakes, and so much more. And scientists crying about the end of this earth's life because of pollution, climate change, etc. Only God can bring things back to perfection. But no one has any idea when. 

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On 9/30/2018 at 9:18 PM, JOHN BUTLER said:

When  i started studying, all those years ago, I was taught that each Creative day was 7,000 years long. And that God's 'rest day' would also be 7,000 years.

Yes, this was idea for some time. After they wrote how specific Hebrew word "yom" can mean undefined, unknown period of time that can last more then 7000 years. I think in Creation book  was (blue book) first time talking about this "new" teaching.

But despite to this revelation about "yom" in Genesis book, WT still standing in interpretation how Adam and Eve as first human on Earth come to existence before only 6000 years ... and few years more (if we count from 1975 till today). 

In this we can see some disharmony, about this two Bible reports, in WT explanations and interpretations about when first human came to existence and how old is Earth, Solar system, Universe. 

Science said one thing and WT something different or not incorporate scientific knowledge and information's in religious teaching of the JW Church.

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History and science agree about cataclysmic events that was in the past of Earth and how that affect all living creatures. By that various evidences that is visible in scientific research in many fields,  we can expect, soon or later, the same or similar changes in life of Earth and all forms of life. 

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33 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Yes, this was idea for some time. After they wrote how specific Hebrew word "yom" can mean undefined, unknown period of time that can last more then 7000 years. I think in Creation book  was (blue book) first time talking about this "new" teaching.

But despite to this revelation about "yom" in Genesis book, WT still standing in interpretation how Adam and Eve as first human on Earth come to existence before only 6000 years ... and few years more (if we count from 1975 till today). 

In this we can see some disharmony, about this two Bible reports, in WT explanations and interpretations about when first human came to existence and how old is Earth, Solar system, Universe. 

Science said one thing and WT something different or not incorporate scientific knowledge and information's in religious teaching of the JW Church.

Yes, my point was that if the Governing Body have always been the 'faithful and discreet slave' why would God have given them the wrong information ? 

And, if the GB have been proven wrong on such issues, how can anyone trust them now and in the future ? 

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On 9/30/2018 at 1:28 PM, The Librarian said:

Question sent in for me to post.

Agape!

 

Granted that the day of God Judgement is unknown, people, even JWs, take into account in what Bible says that the end is near and even the disc-poles and all slaves of the Christ who serve the Father of Jesus, also know that the day is near.

For us today, we know the day is coming, but we have to be vigilant and enduring, maintaining our faith, hold to salvation, for we do not want to be locked out when the groom shows up, as the Bible says, and we would want to know what God's Law entail and not be recognized by the one who God sent, so to speak.

So it is our duty as Christians to be aware and ready for trying times are upon us and the Tribulation End Times will soon begin and during that time no one would speak of the gospel or the Messianic Age, you can see such ones but they will preach to you for the separating of the sheep and goats is in effect.

This is why a lot of us, myself included remains in total neutrality, careful not to call out others as false, correcting actual truths to falsehood and so to speak, anyone applying the teachings of the church I remain neutral with because a slight mistake can land one for judgement, something I and many others who adhere to the Bible do not want, but some people are lollygagging, not knowing they put themselves in danger and in God's anger, and that is the price such ones will pay, alongside with the wicked.

For if one does know know his Bible and remains ignorant to the truth, even when someone tells him the truth, that ignorant person will be another person in line for the Lake of Fire and succumb to the second death.

As for it still happening there are many things, for instance, the Religion(s) of Babylon who are in total unity.

The E.I.I is seeking a peaceful conquest while the higher ups in the UN is seeking total security and their hands on lands not of their own, while opposing forces speak against them.

And we know what the Bible says on peace and security.

Therefore we must be vigilant, enduring, maintain of faith, hold true to scripture and know our Bible, ignore those who claim they read the Bible but do not apply, those who add to the Word by means of opinion and emotion thus adhering to the accursed, avoid the Trinity, avoid brazen conduct, etc.

While doing so, we must read and learn everyday, take in knowledge of God, and of his Son, Jesus, of the Kingdom, the trial and error of the disciples and followers of the Christ, read and teach the Word accurately, do not give in to spurious text or Traditions of Men regarding understanding and so forth, for in doing so, God and his Christ dwells in us, and we, become one with not just the Christ, but of God also.

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27 minutes ago, Gone Away said:

God does not give wrong information. Nobody disputes this surely?

Exactly. So if the Governing Body of the JW Org are what they say they are (the faithful and discreet slave) then why do they give false information to the congregation ? 

Surely that is deliberate sin.

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13 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Surely that is deliberate sin

Not if they believe what they say. Getting something wrong is not a sin as such. Everybody makes mistakes. I have never subscribed to a GB inspired club.

Armageddon will always be a few years/months (etc) off until it comes. The important thing is to keep in expectation of it, which (for me) means "get your priorities right".  One old brother said to me many years ago "your armageddon came the day you dedicated your life to Jehovah". I found that a very useful viewpoint and consequently (since then), I have avoided "end-time frothing" . By "end-time frothing", I mean emotional debate about the end being near, taking too long, not coming as expected, being falsely predicted, not coming at all....etc.etc.etc.

The whole point of the excercise for me is to live now as we will live once it has come so that it doesn't come as a shock when this old world's structure is no more. Of course that includes making use of the world as it is now, but not to the full. 

Armageddon will only be an account, not an experience, for the majority of humans in the future. So it's significance is not human-centric.

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4 hours ago, Gone Away said:

Not if they believe what they say. Getting something wrong is not a sin as such. Everybody makes mistakes. I have never subscribed to a GB inspired club.

Armageddon will always be a few years/months (etc) off until it comes. The important thing is to keep in expectation of it, which (for me) means "get your priorities right".  One old brother said to me many years ago "your armageddon came the day you dedicated your life to Jehovah". I found that a very useful viewpoint and consequently (since then), I have avoided "end-time frothing" . By "end-time frothing", I mean emotional debate about the end being near, taking too long, not coming as expected, being falsely predicted, not coming at all....etc.etc.etc.

The whole point of the excercise for me is to live now as we will live once it has come so that it doesn't come as a shock when this old world's structure is no more. Of course that includes making use of the world as it is now, but not to the full. 

Armageddon will only be an account, not an experience, for the majority of humans in the future. So it's significance is not human-centric.

So are you saying the GB are not inspired by God or Jesus Christ when they make predictions ? 

Again, are you saying that the GB are not inspired at all ? 

Are you in effect saying the GB are not the 'faithful and discreet slave' ? 

I did like the way you slipped in the bit about "...being falsely predicted.."

Um, who actually did the false predicting ?

Was it perchance the Governing Body of the JW Org and/or the Bible students before them ? 

And your bit about : "The whole point of the exercise for me is to live now as we will live once it has come... "

Wouldn't it be lovely if the whole earthwide congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses did that. 

 

 

 

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20 hours ago, Gone Away said:

God does not give wrong information

People who believe in god and to god can stand on this quote you gave, for sure.

Now, because in every religious system on Earth, exist people, leadership who run god's Heavenly job, work or business here on Earth and in that process of governing they giving information about what god want human (member of one religion) to do, I ask;

WHO giving information?? 

WHO giving right information??  

WHO giving wrong information??

WHO ... in this one and same religion??

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7 hours ago, Gone Away said:
20 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Surely that is deliberate sin

Not if they believe what they say. Getting something wrong is not a sin as such. 

Dear Gone Away, i think how this same Bible you have in your hand can and will defeat this sort of thinking. :)) 

Do one making some act/deed that can be characterized as wrong or bad or evil, and nevertheless if such was done  deliberately or by mistake.... it is a sin in religious, Bible way of interpretation on this subject, as many bible scholars and teachers explained. 

If i believe that GB is not FDS and not god's servant and representative here on Earth (but you believe they are) then, as You gave reasoning, I am not deliberately sinning and not made sin, because I BELIEVE IN WHAT I SAY I BELIEVE :)))))   I JUST GETTING SOMETHING WRONG, THAT IS  ALL :))))  

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7 hours ago, Gone Away said:

One old brother said to me many years ago "your armageddon came the day you dedicated your life to Jehovah".

Something not seems right, good and healthy in such way of thinking, to me of course.

Dedication to god, even in JWorg world, must be the happiest and most important day of your life, because you choose LIFE in Jesus and his father. YOU CHOOSE LIFE ...... NOT Armageddon, ......because Armageddon  is  destruction and death.

7 hours ago, Gone Away said:

The whole point of the excercise for me is to live now as we will live once it has come so that it doesn't come as a shock when this old world's structure is no more.

Perhaps that can be good in some sort of circumstances or when your days of calamity come on you, not because of Armageddon has come, but because of worldly events and unknown reasons, because something bad just happened in your place of living.

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3 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

because Armageddon  is  destruction and death.

Here lies an underlying feature of this mindset it appears. I do not share this perception of Armageddon that you have. For me, I survived my personal armageddon. This was a day of regeneration with a prospect of life. I can see you have a different perception, whether learned or originated. The big Armageddon for me is also a day of regeneration and of life. For you, I see, it is different.

For me this fits with Paul's words at 2Cor.2:15-16 "For to God we are a sweet odor of Christ among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing; to the latter ones an odor issuing from death to death, to the former ones an odor issuing from life to life."

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3 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Perhaps that can be good in some sort of circumstances or when your days of calamity come on you, not because of Armageddon has come, but because of worldly events and unknown reasons, because something bad just happened in your place of living.

I'm trying to follow your logic here, but with difficulty. We just don't speak the same language (figuratively). You seem to be implying that  some sort of bad events other than Armageddon might prove my outlook of value?

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4 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

You gave reasoning, I am not deliberately sinning and not made sin  because I BELIEVE IN WHAT I SAY I BELIEVE :)))))   I JUST GETTING SOMETHING WRONG, THAT IS  ALL :))))  

Well, how to make a dog's breakfast out of a basic statement???

Let's untangle this. Let's speak about you. As you have used the personal pronoun "I", "you" features in my response. 

If "you" say something wrong unintentionally, thinking sincerely "you" are right, then this means "you" are not deliberately sinning. It means "you" have made a mistake, misunderstood a matter, made a decision with insufficient or incorrect data etc.

Your point here: "You gave reasoning, I am not deliberately sinning and not made sin" is a distortion of what I said. A statement was made by @John Butler proposing that if the GB endorse something which later is found to be incorrect, this must be deliberate sinning. My response was that this is not sinning as such (deliberate) but is more correctly termed and evaluated as a mistake as described above. A mistake of this type can certainly be termed a"sin" in the sense that it "misses the mark" of truth. But it is not deliberate.

I will not go to such lengths to untangle reasoning of this type in the future, so, respectfully, I request that you give a little more thought to your reponses. ?

 

 

 

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6 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

So are you saying the GB are not inspired by God or Jesus Christ when they make predictions ? 

Again, are you saying that the GB are not inspired at all ? 

The last person who was inspired by God or Jesus was the apostle John, on the isle of Patmos, when he wrote Revelation. 

 

 

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16 hours ago, Anna said:

The last person who was inspired by God or Jesus was the apostle John, on the isle of Patmos, when he wrote Revelation. 

 

 

Was he last or not no one knows for sure. But You believe he was last. And i respect your belief.... even with :) symbol

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18 hours ago, Anna said:

The last person who was inspired by God or Jesus was the apostle John, on the isle of Patmos, when he wrote Revelation. 

 

 

Was John not inspired at Ephesus when he wrote his other writings then, two years later  (1,2,3, John)   ? :) 

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19 hours ago, Gone Away said:

Here lies an underlying feature of this mindset it appears. I do not share this perception of Armageddon that you have. For me, I survived my personal armageddon. This was a day of regeneration with a prospect of life. I can see you have a different perception, whether learned or originated. The big Armageddon for me is also a day of regeneration and of life. For you, I see, it is different.

For me this fits with Paul's words at 2Cor.2:15-16 "For to God we are a sweet odor of Christ among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing; to the latter ones an odor issuing from death to death, to the former ones an odor issuing from life to life."

odor...preaching....one issue.

Armageddon, as bible scholars explaining is The Day of JHVH.

  Seek Jehovah . . . Seek righteousness, seek meekness. Probably you may be concealed in the day of Jehovah’s anger.”—ZEPHANIAH 2:3.

Look! The day of Jehovah is coming, Cruel both with fury and with burning anger, To make the land an object of horror,+ And to annihilate the land’s sinners from it.- Is 13:9

Woe to those who yearn for the day of Jehovah!+ What, then, will the day of Jehovah mean for you?+ It will be darkness, and not light - Amos 5:18

If you want to enjoy in the day of Armageddon, let it be your's. :)) Mindset... hahahaha

Do you like WT publications with scene of Armageddon? What looks regenerate in them? And what prospect of life is in it? You have faith of surviving, good for you, but no one promise this outcome to You, not even JHVH.

 

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19 hours ago, Gone Away said:

If "you" say something wrong unintentionally, thinking sincerely "you" are right, then this means "you" are not deliberately sinning. It means "you" have made a mistake, misunderstood a matter, made a decision with insufficient or incorrect data etc.

No problem with your explanation and human characteristic . Point is other thing - Deliberately or not, SIN IS SIN. That is all what is about in what i have to say about Bible viewpoint and what most or some religious people believe about human deeds and sin.

If people decide that deliberately sinning must be punished with this and that punishment, they will do it.

If people decide that unintentional, mistaken sin must not be punished but to forgive, they will do it.

:))))))) 

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19 hours ago, Gone Away said:

Well, how to make a dog's breakfast out of a basic statement???

Let's untangle this. Let's speak about you. As you have used the personal pronoun "I", "you" features in my response. 

If "you" say something wrong unintentionally, thinking sincerely "you" are right, then this means "you" are not deliberately sinning. It means "you" have made a mistake, misunderstood a matter, made a decision with insufficient or incorrect data etc.

Your point here: "You gave reasoning, I am not deliberately sinning and not made sin" is a distortion of what I said. A statement was made by @John Butler proposing that if the GB endorse something which later is found to be incorrect, this must be deliberate sinning. My response was that this is not sinning as such (deliberate) but is more correctly termed and evaluated as a mistake as described above. A mistake of this type can certainly be termed a"sin" in the sense that it "misses the mark" of truth. But it is not deliberate.

I will not go to such lengths to untangle reasoning of this type in the future, so, respectfully, I request that you give a little more thought to your reponses. ?

 

 

 

My point was of course that if the Governing Body promote as 'fact' that they are the 'Faithful and discreet slave' therefore exalting themselves,  and then give false information (bad food) concerning the will of God, then they are deliberately sinning...  

“Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics, to give them their food at the proper time?  Matthew 24 v 45.

But another point has just appeared to me. The above scripture is from Matthew. The below scripture is from Luke. Do you notice a difference ?

 And the Lord said: “Who really is the faithful steward, the discreet one, whom his master will appoint over his body of attendants to keep giving them their measure of food supplies at the proper time?    Luke 12 v 42.

The Matthew scripture is past tense, the Luke scripture is future tense. 

But my original point on this issue was that the GB make it known as 'fact' that they have this responsibility, and only those 8 men, no one else. But they prove themselves false because the 'food' they supply in not true food.

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19 hours ago, Gone Away said:

I will not go to such lengths to untangle reasoning of this type in the future, so, respectfully, I request that you give a little more thought to your reponses. ?

I am like Moses, man of few words, not know how to talking. Even in my Croatian language i spending day in less talking than other people. In English i have problem with grammar and structuring Croatian way of sentences to English way. ;)))

So, please accept my  apologize for that. This is me, ....you can kill me but this is me :)))))

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1 minute ago, Srecko Sostar said:

I am like Moses, man of few words, not know how to talking. Even in my Croatian language i spending day in less talking than other people. In English i have problem with grammar and structuring Croatian way of sentences to English way. ;)))

So, please accept my  apologize for that. This is me, ....you can kill me but this is me :)))))

You do ok. Do not worry about those that have no fellow feeling. Some of us show love, some don't. 

I'm English and all I can speak and write is English, so you are doing better than me. 

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15 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Deliberately or not, SIN IS SIN.

1John 5:17:"All unrighteousness is sin, and yet there is a sin that does not incur death."

34 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

You have faith of surviving, good for you, but no one promise this outcome to You, not even JHVH.

Sorry, you are not in a position to tell me what Jehovah has or has not promised me.

35 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

If you want to enjoy in the day of Armageddon, let it be your's. :)) Mindset... hahahaha

That is what I mean. You have your odor, I have mine....

 

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24 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

My point was of course that if the Governing Body promote as 'fact' that they are the 'Faithful and discreet slave' therefore exalting themselves,  and then give false information (bad food) concerning the will of God, then they are deliberately sinning...  

"My sheep know me.........."

"They will by no means follow a stranger but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers.”

Should be self-explantory.

Got to go for now.  ?
 

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41 minutes ago, Gone Away said:

"My sheep know me.........."

"They will by no means follow a stranger but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers.”

Should be self-explantory.

Got to go for now.  ?
 

You talk in riddles, well rubbish actually. 

I'm talking about the GB of the JW Org, you are quoting Jesus' words. There is no connection.

 

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The Librarian

Jehovah’s Witnesses have always claimed with absolute certainty that Armageddon is just a few years away. 140 some years later, it still hasnÂ’t happened. What makes them think itÂ’ll still happen?

 

DidnÂ’t the Red Sox win the championship in time?

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2 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

You talk in riddles, well rubbish actually. 

I'm talking about the GB of the JW Org, you are quoting Jesus' words. There is no connection.

If you can't see it then................. you can't see it. Jesus' words don't always make sense to everyone actually.

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25 minutes ago, Gone Away said:

If you can't see it then................. you can't see it. Jesus' words don't always make sense to everyone actually.

You are a joker. If you think you can apply Jesus' words to the GB then you too deliberately sin by going 'beyond the things written'. . 

My goodness how the JW Org corrupts some people.  I would laugh about it but it is such an insult to Jehovah and Jesus Christ. 

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1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

You are a joker. If you think you can apply Jesus' words to the GB

You think that's what I am doing??? You have missed a turning somewhere there. I think the joke has to be on you if that's the case!

Anyway, I know you are hurting over something, so I'm not going to add to it by pursuing this silly GB bashing road any further. Sorry to have indulged so far. ?

Getting back on thread, the question was something about JWs being certain that Armageddon is only a few years away for 140 years. What makes them think it’ll still happen?

All I can think of (at the mo) is Habbakuk 2:3: "For [the] vision is yet for the appointed time, and it keeps panting on to the end, and it will not tell a lie. Even if it should delay, keep in expectation of it; for it will without fail come true. It will not be late."

 

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On 10/2/2018 at 4:21 PM, JOHN BUTLER said:

Exactly. So if the Governing Body of the JW Org are what they say they are (the faithful and discreet slave) then why do they give false information to the congregation ? 

Surely that is deliberate sin.

If that was the case, and if such is a sin for man is indeed imperfect, we should also be holding accountable Prophet Eli because he called Samuel's mother a drunk, not realizing moments later she was praying to God when she explained herself to Eli, who was clearly dumbfounded. He is a Prophet of God so surely he has made mistakes, as is with Samuel who was avoiding death at the hands of Saul, father of Johnathan, predecessor of King David, Son of Jesse.

As for pastors of the church today, they are all imperfect, so minor mistakes can be made, I can say the same thing of us Biblical Unitarians.

As for the other bit, they are not inspired, whatsoever, no Restorationist Christian in their historical existence ever claimed to be inspired. Unless you want to bring proof to claim, of which has already been debunked before when Christian history has been spoken.

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13 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Was he last or not no one knows for sure. But You believe he was last. And i respect your belief.... even with :) symbol

That is why it is best to study about Apostle John... If you can't even get this down, the basics at least, how can you profess the Word when you do not know the Word and rely on emotion and opinions in a convoluted sense and mingle it with Scripture?

I do not know if what you say, I respect your belief, is false or genuine, God our Father knows, granted with what you have been saying here and elsewhere, it is not wise to kid yourself when you reveal yourself.

 

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8 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

My point was of course that if the Governing Body promote as 'fact' that they are the 'Faithful and discreet slave' therefore exalting themselves,  and then give false information (bad food) concerning the will of God, then they are deliberately sinning...  

“Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics, to give them their food at the proper time?  Matthew 24 v 45.

But another point has just appeared to me. The above scripture is from Matthew. The below scripture is from Luke. Do you notice a difference ?

 And the Lord said: “Who really is the faithful steward, the discreet one, whom his master will appoint over his body of attendants to keep giving them their measure of food supplies at the proper time?    Luke 12 v 42.

The Matthew scripture is past tense, the Luke scripture is future tense. 

But my original point on this issue was that the GB make it known as 'fact' that they have this responsibility, and only those 8 men, no one else. But they prove themselves false because the 'food' they supply in not true food.

The difference is that these 2 verses are parallel from each other, for if you actually studied the gospels, this would not be of a surprise, granted both Matthew and Luke, were eye witnesses of Jesus' ministry.

As for the next bit, paste tense, future tense, but why not take in the context of the verse, that is like making and eating a sandwich, but there is only beard and nothing in the sandwich itself.

In the Greek language, the word, which is a noun, oikonomos οἰκονόμος [Steward] (Strong's 3623) refers to the manager of the household, a person placed over servants, though he himself is a servant and or a slave like those in his circle. In ancient times, this steward/slave position  was often filled by a faithful servants, who they themselves were placed in charge of his master’s business and actions, and or affairs. It was a position of great loyalty and complete trust between the persons. Regarding the household servants, which applies to all individuals who work in the master’s household, you have this Greek Word oiketeias οἰκετείας (Strong's 3610a)

In the Bible, the Scriptures contain examples of a single noun regarding a collection of persons and or group, we have biblical examples too, for when God Yahweh, the only and only true El Shaddai, addressed the nation of Israel as a group, in plural form.

 for instance, Isaiah 43:10. That being said, when taking in context we can see that this verse, Luke 12:42 is a complete parallel of Matthew 24:45, this steward, or slave, is called the faithful and  and is called discreet.

Now we have the word discreet (sensible in some translations), for in the Greek language it is an adjective, phronimos φρόνιμος [discreet/sensible] (Strong's 5429) for in it's use in the verse found in the gospel of Luke it conveys the idea of understanding in association such as insight, discernment, prudence, etc. This same Greek word is also used, by Luke, in Luke 16:8, and the rendering is ever so obvious, and it does not stop there either.

Now with this context in mind, the Jehovah's Witnesses, the leading pastors of this faith refers to themselves as the Governing Body, they also refer to themselves as the faithful and discreet slaves, and this term, found in those 2 verses you provided, fits the bill for them, for they are of a sole Christian community - The Jehovah's Witnesses, and they are a body of 8 persons who are stewards, servants and or slaves of the house, their faith community and so forth. It is only these 8 few because they are the ones who are leading the faith, as well as referring to themselves as the chosen ones of the Priesthood, which, to Jehovah's Witnesses mean Anointed Ones, and a term I normally use regarding the church, Church Fathers, just as Eusebius and the others were of such, centuries ago.

With all that said, the only thing that is inspired is the Scriptures.

5 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

You are a joker. If you think you can apply Jesus' words to the GB then you too deliberately sin by going 'beyond the things written'. . 

My goodness how the JW Org corrupts some people.  I would laugh about it but it is such an insult to Jehovah and Jesus Christ. 

He isn't joking he is professing his belief, as well as speaking of what the Bible says, for, even if he was not a JW, what is said is in harmony with the scriptures regarding those who lead in the early Christian church.

You'd laugh? But last time you yourself have stated religious leadership is of Pharisees when God is the head of the Christ and the Christ is the head of the church, of which the church is structure is of God's Order, and the church receives instruction from the Christ himself, hence the early Church and onward.

For what he said is in the right, it is only viewed as wrong because you show yourself to have a disdain for Jehovah's Witnesses, for @Gone Away is most likely one. For anything regarding the stewards who are sensible, it is the same as is in the Scriptures. this paste/future tense will not cut it for you if you do not apply context from very little elementary biblical hermeneutics.

For a former JW, you've gone down hill if you missed that point.

 

Also the Greek text isn't.... Rubbish...

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On 10/3/2018 at 5:48 PM, Anna said:

The last person who was inspired by God or Jesus was the apostle John, on the isle of Patmos, when he wrote Revelation. 

Well, you can't expect much from a guy who believes a woman named Chloe lead the church of Corinth.If he believes that, there isn't much information you can get from him regarding Apostle John.

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3 hours ago, Gone Away said:

You think that's what I am doing??? You have missed a turning somewhere there. I think the joke has to be on you if that's the case!

Anyway, I know you are hurting over something, so I'm not going to add to it by pursuing this silly GB bashing road any further. Sorry to have indulged so far. ?

Getting back on thread, the question was something about JWs being certain that Armageddon is only a few years away for 140 years. What makes them think it’ll still happen?

All I can think of (at the mo) is Habbakuk 2:3: "For [the] vision is yet for the appointed time, and it keeps panting on to the end, and it will not tell a lie. Even if it should delay, keep in expectation of it; for it will without fail come true. It will not be late."

Pretty much, in a simple sense: To endure to the end. To be vigilant until the end. To maintain faith/salvation to the end, for you do not know when the Master is coming, you do not know when God's day is coming, so you have to always be ready when it does happen, as you live and breathe.

Simple stuff like this if someone does not get, they haven't been reading their Bible as much. The one of God who is coming, as they also forget, will be coming with a sword, surely they know that Jesus is not just a high priest, not just a King or Christ, or even the Son of God. Our Lord, Christ Jesus is a Mighty Warrior, I don't see how that one spilled by regarding the masses, but they have to realize this is in an accurate and literal sense of what is, as they say in the streets, is about to go down.

Here's a reference for that verse, also in the Hebrew Old Testament:

 

  • Micah 7:7 - But as for me, I will look to the LORD [YHWH]; I will wait for the God of my salvation; my God will hear me.

Meaning to keep on the lookout for God Yahweh, have a patient, waiting position for God to hand out salvation, and God hears those who calls for him, be it of the rich, the poor, white, black, male, female, etc. He hears all who is for him, he hears those who call for him, he is on the side of those who listen to him and his son, Jesus.

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13 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Was John not inspired at Ephesus when he wrote his other writings then, two years later (1,2,3, John) ? :) 

Yes, I did think about that too. But it was still John, as the last of the apostles, who was inspired :). So no, the GB are not inspired obviously.

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13 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

I do not know if what you say, I respect your belief, is false or genuine,

Thanks to heaven, people  have no  power to read other people mind and motives.  

But, thanks to heaven too, other people have power to be suspicious about other people words. Also to be stubborn and persistent in that. 

:))))

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12 hours ago, Space Merchant said:
On 10/3/2018 at 11:48 PM, Anna said:

The last person who was inspired by God or Jesus was the apostle John, on the isle of Patmos, when he wrote Revelation. 

... dear Anna, if you open NWT Bible on page 1578 and 1579 (in Croatian edition 2006) authors of translation quoted how John (apostle) wrote 1,2 and 3 John in a year cca 98.

So, book of Revelation is the book that placed on last position of Bible, but last written was those 3 letters, not Revelation, according to WT.

That is what John Butler noticed about comment you gave. And that is just that. Nothing more. Not John Butler not me made up things about this issue. We just read NWT Bible and check information about "last" inspired words that found its place in Bible books.

By the way does anyone know what was the name of that Catholic Roman Pope who ccollected  "inspired" books and letters and then decide what one of all will be part of Bible - Catholic Bible of course. Later came Protestant Bible. And later came NWT Bible. And in the middle there is many other Bibles too.       

:))

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5 minutes ago, AllenSmith34 said:

Keep in mind the Watchtower is NOW! Enforcing their copyright material, and this website has been added to that list of violating copyright material. Since this site is far from being academic, and laughable to think so, STOP! Infringing on copyright material.

The Watchtower will also prevent their copyright material to be archived on other websites that are NOT their own. Good luck!

Well said Allen!

And what to think about "water of truth", for free, without no charge, to buy without money and without so called "copyrights", that Jesus promised to all, and that have to be available for all, for people to be able to get everlasting life ::)))

What a funny reality, what a parody, what a shame to trade with "The Truth". And all in the name of Law, Secular, Worldly Law.

But when Secular Law said give us documents about this and that, then WT said, we must obey god more then you :))))))))

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35 minutes ago, AllenSmith34 said:

What makes you think the wheels are not turning only because it’s not satisfactory to your own perceived timeline? God’s timeline cannot be questioned by mere mortals. That doesn’t mean a lot hasn’t happened since 1914.

 

Former witnesses that NEVER received enlightenment will never understand. So, why ask the question. However, those that scuff at the GB as though their opinion matters receive less enlightenment from the Holy Spirit.

 

Therefore, for nostalgic purposes, PROVE nothing has happened?

 

Keep in mind the Watchtower is NOW! Enforcing their copyright material, and this website has been added to that list of violating copyright material. Since this site is far from being academic, and laughable to think so, STOP! Infringing on copyright material.

 

 

The Watchtower will also prevent their copyright material to be archived on other websites that are NOT their own. Good luck!

 

 

 

 

 

Sounds like you are making threats, and proves the WT are getting to be more a part of the world than ever. 

The GB should give more of it's time to worrying about a more important type of violation, that of children. 

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18 minutes ago, AllenSmith34 said:

No threats. However, I do find the hostility against the GB tantalizing. The Watchtower has proven to show through their articles throughout the decades to show just that Butler. Caring and being responsible for our children. You just refuse to acknowledge the myriad of things published in the magazines. It’s like being tone deaf. However, any time you want to look at the articles, feel free to enter JW.org for honesty and truth.

You are also correct, The GB is there to receive God’s message not a court of law.

But since you continue to insinuate about child abuse, then looking at it by your perspective, WE are all GUILTY, including you Butler, since no one has the ability to read minds like Srecko mentioned. Therefore, it falls own all of us in order for the blame game to be effective.

 

This topic is about Armageddon, will it won't it happen ?  I get moaned at for not keeping on topic. 

Therefore if I reply to your comment I will get shot up by the World News Media police. They seem to love to bully only me in this regard. 

I am actually a 'member' of the JW org web page, with log in details etc. As for it being 'honesty and truth' well that is up to each of us to decide if we believe that.  

I also studied last Sunday's study article in the W/T, which i found amusing. Even though my wife is told by the Elders not to talk to me about spiritual things, as she is not baptised it not for the Elders to decide, so we still converse about such matters. 

Concerning the Child abuse issue, I would love to discuss this but it would probably need to be elsewhere or a new topic. 

As you say, WE are all guilty. That was why I left the Org, so as not to be guilty. But I must leave it there for fear of being shot down. 

 

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8 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Thanks to heaven, people  have no  power to read other people mind and motives.  

But, thanks to heaven too, other people have power to be suspicious about other people words. Also to be stubborn and persistent in that. 

:))))

I say this because of your antics before and the very fact people can point your own words as flawed and or cryptic, for if you truly had respect for people, it would show, rather thank pressing on so an so, perhaps if I link something, you'd be quick to delete it.

Interesting that Mr.Butler agrees when he has not seen what many of us have seen.

Invite you to prove stubbornness, so far you haven't prove your own words before, thus being corrected with something is seen as unfounded, not even close to factual information - remember Chloe?

8 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

... dear Anna, if you open NWT Bible on page 1578 and 1579 (in Croatian edition 2006) authors of translation quoted how John (apostle) wrote 1,2 and 3 John in a year cca 98.

So, book of Revelation is the book that placed on last position of Bible, but last written was those 3 letters, not Revelation, according to WT.

Actually you are missing the point. The original source tells you The Revelation of John and or Apocalypse. It is the last book of the Bible as is in most translations, though not the last written. Another name for it is the Apocalypse of John the Apostle [Apocalypse de Jean l'apôtre].

As for this, Croatian Edition 2006, can you be more specific, granted the language is possibly Croatian - hrvatski? Also regardless of whatever language, this is in fact true with what they say here: 

    Hello guest!

And what we see in Bible History: 

    Hello guest!
 (Go to Canonical History)

Fact: Revelation was the last book accepted into the Christian biblical canon, and to the present day some churches that derive from the Church of the East reject it.

So to say according to the Watchtower only proves your ignorance, when outside of the realm of Watchtower, this same information is professed, so I ask you, are you really looking into the Scriptures or simply, trying to be respectful by not telling the truth?

Surely, Srecko, you can do better than that, but to fool people isn't your strong suit. I've also provided another source for you, so you can correct yourself, granted Mr. Butler agrees with you, he himself can learn more about his Bible. Consider this an education process for the both of you.

The next question is... Do you really not know that according to the Book of Revelations, its author was on the island of Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus, when he was honored with the vision contained in Revelation?

Everyone knows the last 3 were the Epistles, but the last Book of the Bible is what is being spoken of here, regardless of source or translation, everyone knows this and in that last Book, John was inspired to have seen these visions on the island, thus Revelations.

I mean, Revelations 1:9 was a dead giveaway, I mean, sheesh man:

I, John, your brother and partner in the tribulation and the kingdom and the patient endurance that are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos on account of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.

Therefore, I invited, do yourself a favor, and learn more about Apostle John, read it even everything pertaining to this Apostle.

Here is another fact, a brief one: John is the only one who had written the rare conversation Jesus had with a leader of the Jews by the name of Nicodemus. Nicodemus himself played a role in Jesus' burial.

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18 hours ago, Anna said:

Really? What scripture is that in?

In another thread @Srecko Sostar made the claim that a woman named Chloe lead the Church of Corinth, basing his own view on a single verse (1 Corinthians 1:11) using this as legitimate proof that somehow Chloe lead the Church. I even told him to prove it, but he as well as Witness failed when the Biblical Facts were placed in front of them, Witness began the thread and yielded upon his own feelings and opinions, even going as far as to say that someone of has the holy spirit on them was only speaking of an opinion when in reality Paul was referring to God's Order by means of Creation, our first human parents.

The funny thing is how the both of them attempt to defend a Tradition of Men regarding women leadership in a church, one of them even stated, out of disdain of the truth, that I am somehow anti-women for making the W in women lowercase, when I type too fast for my own good to even realize that, and I asked him, prove I am against women, of which he cannot prove, nor can Srecko.

What they fail to see is women as roles in the church as well as men, however, according to God's Order, there are roles that are for men that women cannot do, however both men and women help the church out, furthermore, God's Order also reflects the family structure, such as the husband, the wife, the child, hence the family itself and so forth.

But yes, every time a biblical fact is thrown into their face, they are quick to bring up JWs, when I am talking solely about the Church Structure and how things were before people started to change up things to equal that of Traditions of Men. Next thing you know, Srecko and Witness will probably defend Furries taking religious office in a church.

That being said, Srecko has a habit of deleting things, so I make sure to quote him and make a response so his own word does not vanish, as it has last time. This thread was created by Witness regarding women.

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9 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

dear Anna, if you open NWT Bible on page 1578 and 1579 (in Croatian edition 2006) authors of translation quoted how John (apostle) wrote 1,2 and 3 John in a year cca 98.

So, book of Revelation is the book that placed on last position of Bible, but last written was those 3 letters, not Revelation, according to WT.

That is what John Butler noticed about comment you gave. And that is just that. Nothing more. Not John Butler not me made up things about this issue. We just read NWT Bible and check information about "last" inspired words that found its place in Bible books.

Yes, I know :). I wasn't disputing that.

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Just a couple of points Space Merchant. 

If Hitler had made a comment i thought was true, I would back up the comment, not the man.

If Srecko makes a comment which I agree with I will say that i agree with that comment.. I will judge the comment not the man or woman making it. I will also not go back ten pages to look for other comments they have made. 

I have in fact felt this  "stubborn and persistent"  attitude against me on here, but I'm not moved by it. 

Space Merchant says "But yes, every time a biblical fact is thrown into their face, they are quick to bring up JWs, when I am talking solely about the Church Structure..." 

Um, go to the very top of the page. Read what this site is all about . JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES PUBLIC CLUB.  Then look at the topic heading Jehovah's witnesses ..... Armageddon. What makes THEM  think it will still happen ? It is about the Jehovah's witnesses, not about the Church structure or the early church. 

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7 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

If Hitler had made a comment i thought was true, I would back up the comment, not the man.

And your point? I back up a majority of what I say on here, at times being overly factual. Unless you have something else to say, I am waiting.

7 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

If Srecko makes a comment which I agree with I will say that i agree with that comment.. I will judge the comment not the man or woman making it. I will also not go back ten pages to look for other comments they have made. 

And yet when he judges me you voted it up. I am not a stubborn person, I am, however, very strict and pressing with information, mainly if something spoken of is untrue, in the realm of religion, I will point something out and make it clear from what is true and not true.

For when a truth is spoken, such of which is too much for one to handle, and there is a whole lot of that.

7 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

I have in fact felt this  "stubborn and persistent"  attitude against me on here, but I'm not moved by it. 

Stubbornness and persistence, no. Strict yes, I even told you this the first time I ever made comment to you and to others. If I tell you a truth, an actual truth, you would say something else only to be met with truth, and if anyone has been aware, I always make a response as to where my name is mentioned and if I see something that is not correct, I will make a response.

If Srecko says that God has no problem with men/women physically changing their reproductive system to the opposite sex, of course I will make a response to it - and yes, he did say this before, it caught my eye and I did make the response.

If you believe that someone who speaks truth is stubborn, maybe it would be best to take the time and read Isaiah 28 and see how the leader of Judah responded to Prophet Isaiah, who was not stubborn at all, but very strict on what he says although he kept repeating himself.

You should be moved by what is true and not that of man's understanding, of which the last 2 times, when the truth was sent your way, you seem a bit flustered by it.

As for the strictness, I can get irritated, but this is only towards Trinitarians and anyone who speaks ill of the holy spirit or those who brush over biblical principles that tie in with God's Laws and commandments.

7 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Space Merchant says : "But yes, every time a biblical fact is thrown into their face, they are quick to bring up JWs, when I am talking solely about the Church Structure..." 

This is in fact true, here is the proof of where I posted the Bibical Facts to such ones who attempt to bring up JW every time when the truth of God's Order is presented in their faces, have a look, Mr. Butler:

There are some typos but the response was clear to Srecko, when it comes to facts: Like I told you before, the Jehovah's Witnesses or the Watchtower cannot save you here, and you only proven yourself to be incorrect, granted that anyone even to Theologians know the history of Restorationist.

7 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Um, go to the very top of the page. Read what this site is all about . JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES PUBLIC CLUB.  Then look at the topic heading Jehovah's witnesses ..... Armageddon. What makes THEM  think it will still happen ? It is about the Jehovah's witnesses, not about the Church structure or the early church. 

I know what the topic is about for if it irks you that much you didn't take to task to stop Mr. Srecko now did you? It didn't stop you from going about speaking of inspiration and the other things when, as you put it, the topic is about Armageddon I made my response regarding a specific discussion on this forum, granted what I said was to respond to @Anna to briefly explain the discussion, not to you, of which actually took place.

If it is Armageddon response you seek, it is an Armageddon response you shall have.

Armageddon, spoken of as God's day, his war against the wicked, read in Revelations 16:14, 16 and 19:11-21. It is also in reference to  /meaning Tel [Mount] Megiddo. It is the war of the great day of God, El Shaddai in which the kings and leaders on earth, mainly those who put God's people to task in the worse ways will be getting their dues paid for in full.

As for when it will happen, no one knows for sure, but the Bible tells us it is near and we are to keep on maintain our faith, to be vigilant and so forth, remain steadfast in what is true. We also can't make a claim of it going to happen this year or that year, etc, examples like the whole debacle in 2017 or 2012 where the literal claim of the world will end has been said, proclaimed, movies made, put into video games, etc, even going as far as to get the whole Planet X troop riled up, who they themselves think the earth as a whole would be replaced with another earth, or those who use the Eclipse as an excuse that the world would end. No one knows the day or the hour, but only God knows, the angels, nope, Jesus, nada, no one but Hashem, no one but Jesus' God, my God, your God, the God of each and every one of us here on this forum.

There is no middle ground, you either for life or for death. And the implications and context is as clear as the sky in this sense.

I see the early church as the bread of Christianity, the early Church, they too believed in God's Day and Judgement that will be unleashed unto the wicked for such was spoken on in the Scriptures that they themselves had.

That being said, none of us knows the day or hour, playing the guessing game is of no help either. As for you have mentioned about 1975, that has been debunked for sometime now and the fact that a great deal went about to take down a very credible source on this matter was evident, it only shows who was in the right here, for no JW would be foolish to claim that Armageddon would happen in 1975, if that was the case it would have defeated the purpose of ceasing the gospel and or Great Commission, hence why I took information from the now long gone source and posted it here as legitimate proof.

As for the other thing you mentioned before, Restorationist, as a organized group or a sole individual living in the outskirts of Yemen, none of them never, and ill ever claim to be inspired, it is not in the fabric of their Christology, nor in those who make the attempt to put into application of the early church, thus making any false claim immediately shot down when evidence is in use. If you have people, like Atheists who knows this stuff too, then surely you have a problem trying to make a claim of something that is unfounded, thus making the resolve invalid.

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And yet when he judges me you voted it up. I am not a stubborn person ..... S.M.  I tell you in truth i never even thought he was making a direct comment against you. I just agreed with the comment as a general comment. 

Although i know the answers are given to previous comments, I see the answers as more of a general comment to the whole group. 

And when i said how i felt i was being treated, i did not mean by you personally, I meant generally. . 

As for the rest of your comment here , it is too long for me to concentrate on. 

Sorry S. M.  I am not a puppet for Srecko and i come here as an individual. I do not take sides, I am my own person. 

I comment as I see fit and will continue to do so. 

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2 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

And yet when he judges me you voted it up. I am not a stubborn person ..... S.M.  I tell you in truth i never even thought he was making a direct comment against you. I just agreed with the comment as a general comment. 

Although i know the answers are given to previous comments, I see the answers as more of a general comment to the whole group. 

And when i said how i felt i was being treated, i did not mean by you personally, I meant generally. . 

As for the rest of your comment here , it is too long for me to concentrate on. 

Sorry S. M.  I am not a puppet for Srecko and i come here as an individual. I do not take sides, I am my own person. 

I comment as I see fit and will continue to do so. 

No worries, knowing Srecko, he thinks he can be sneaky with his words, unless he forgot to pay his Bird ISP in bird seeds this month, since he thinks birds provide him internet to even post here.

The comment in question was due to the whole women being religious leaders to which both Srecko Sostar and Witness based their understanding on a Tradition of Men. They tried to through in JW/Watchtower stuff and that didn't even help them either for 2 direct questions posed pretty much is enough to shut them down.

It is people like that that are red flags, and I say to you study the Bible and research because one can easily slip into man's understanding without even knowing.

No worries, no one wants to be a puppet of Srecko, no one is a puppet of him for he is very cryptic in his words, especially what he said about Abraham as if he is the villain, to which he has been corrected on.

You can comment, but do so with something that is true to fact, true to the Bible, true to the Christology of others because if something is not in good light, a response will be made, this is how it is in the CSE community, of which I am from. So if someone is in error of the Bible, even about Islam, I will correct,for this is how I am, and this is how I profess.

My reason for somewhat long posts, as a funny  thing JTR thinks I right books and essays, I type waaaay to fast for me own good, and this began with a discussion I had with a Trinitarian here about Church Fathers, a second time regarding the Holy Spirit.

The guy's name is Cos and he cannot see the forest for it's trees, for one thing I have a disdain for is anyone who professes what is accursed, in this case, the Trinity. Cos showed himself to be the child of the Devil when he made claim to something that the end of the discussion, all that can be said, he never posted in that thread again nor does he address he directly, to make it seem he isn't thing to respond to what I said.

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10 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

If you believe that someone who speaks truth is stubborn,

Yes i believe! In fact i have no need  to just believe. Something about  is written in Bible. Paul was excellent example.

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 4I persecuted this Way even to the death, detaining both men and women and throwing them into prison,…

As such member of Jew community he was very stubborn in self idea how he got the truth and how god's will for him is to speak and prosecute other people who disagree with his STRICT idea !!!!  

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On 10/7/2018 at 3:54 AM, Srecko Sostar said:

Yes i believe! In fact i have no need  to just believe. Something about  is written in Bible. Paul was excellent example.

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 4I persecuted this Way even to the death, detaining both men and women and throwing them into prison,…

As such member of Jew community he was very stubborn in self idea how he got the truth and how god's will for him is to speak and prosecute other people who disagree with his STRICT idea !!!!  

If you consider Apostle Paul as an example you would not have been speaking negatively of Abraham in the first place, or his wife, Sarah. You would not have spoken slander when you and Witness attempted to defend religious leadership roles given to women in modern day when such was forbidden and unheard of in the past or the whole Temple Chest thing you had an issue with.

And you've yet to show me anywhere in the Bible to your claim of Chloe being the Leader of the Church of Corinth - to which is unfounded, therefore, you have broken God's Word about those who add to the scripture when you are not suppose to. Tough cookies, Srecko, you cannot giggle your way out of that one.

You directed your last response towards me being stubborn and persistent. So how is it this time I am somehow a Jew part of a Jewish Community? I have studied a bit of Judaism, but I do not see how man who's roots is traced back to the mother land, Africa, is somehow a Jew.

Followers of God were strict also, for they wanted people to not be led astray and they were persistent in their word so the church remains clean of the accursed. Therefore, you example or point is totally meaningless.

That being said, be strict on what the Bible says, mainly on what Paul said about Orderly Worship in terms of God's Order, is a mercy towards you.

Also you are using those verses out of context....

On 10/7/2018 at 4:01 AM, Srecko Sostar said:

.... do not worry about it SM. We all working  on fruits of Spirit :))))))

Then work harder because need to show yourself to be God fearing. I guess perhaps in the future I might post questions via thread so it is neutral whereas both anyone even JWs and hop in, for I have came across some very complex questions with actual answers, so if anyone were to stop you guys on such, you should be able to answer.

That being said, Srecko, I will have to point out, for truly I say to ye, that what you have spoken of regarding Chloe is a lie, and the biblical facts I provided to you, use that for your study and research.

Remember these verses:

  • Proverbs 9:8 - Do not reprove a scoffer, or he will hate you; reprove a wise man, and he will love you.
  • Proverbs 15:31, 32 - [31] The ear that listens to life-giving reproof will dwell among the wise. [32] He who ignores discipline despises himself, but whoever heeds correction gains understanding.
  • Proverbs 19:20 - Listen to advice and accept instruction, that you may gain wisdom in the future.

Do not be a forgetful hearer, be one who listens, Srecko. And read your Bible.

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3 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

If you consider Apostle Paul as an example you would not have been speaking negatively of Abraham in the first place, or his wife, Sarah. You would not have spoken slander when you and Witness attempted to defend religious leadership roles given to women in modern day when such was forbidden and unheard of in the past or the whole Temple Chest thing you had an issue with.

And you've yet to show me anywhere in the Bible to your claim of Chloe being the Leader of the Church of Corinth - to which is unfounded, therefore, you have broken God's Word about those who add to the scripture when you are not suppose to. Tough cookies, Srecko, you cannot giggle your way out of that one.

You directed your last response towards me being stubborn and persistent. So how is it this time I am somehow a Jew part of a Jewish Community? I have studied a bit of Judaism, but I do not see how man who's roots is traced back to the mother land, Africa, is somehow a Jew.

Followers of God were strict also, for they wanted people to not be led astray and they were persistent in their word so the church remains clean of the accursed. Therefore, you example or point is totally meaningless.

That being said, be strict on what the Bible says, mainly on what Paul said about Orderly Worship in terms of God's Order, is a mercy towards you.

Also you are using those verses out of context....

Then work harder because need to show yourself to be God fearing. I guess perhaps in the future I might post questions via thread so it is neutral whereas both anyone even JWs and hop in, for I have came across some very complex questions with actual answers, so if anyone were to stop you guys on such, you should be able to answer.

That being said, Srecko, I will have to point out, for truly I say to ye, that what you have spoken of regarding Chloe is a lie, and the biblical facts I provided to you, use that for your study and research.

Remember these verses:

  • Proverbs 9:8 - Do not reprove a scoffer, or he will hate you; reprove a wise man, and he will love you.
  • Proverbs 15:31, 32 - [31] The ear that listens to life-giving reproof will dwell among the wise. [32] He who ignores discipline despises himself, but whoever heeds correction gains understanding.
  • Proverbs 19:20 - Listen to advice and accept instruction, that you may gain wisdom in the future.

Do not be a forgetful hearer, be one who listens, Srecko. And read your Bible.

:)))) i need to give you some smile and laugh about your methods of teaching. In almost all your respond, not only to me, but especially to me i will say... You using all past and present and future commentary on all kind of comments, conversation, reactions that i,  as your interlocutor made in mutual responses and even wider, that i made to someone else. 

It's pretty boring, if you have not noticed, and if that has not already been said to you by someone else. Please, try to focus your response on actual subject and not to disperse, spin  discussion from Adam to Melchizedek to Revelation book. :)))

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19 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

:)))) i need to give you some smile and laugh about your methods of teaching. In almost all your respond, not only to me, but especially to me i will say... You using all past and present and future commentary on all kind of comments, conversation, reactions that i,  as your interlocutor made in mutual responses and even wider, that i made to someone else. 

That is because you leave questions unanswered as well as you being cryptic with a hint of trickery, so they will be brought up and no, it isn't a method of teaching, it is bringing up claims in regards to such. You cannot heed command of the Christ if you think the way you do of very specific things, and you show yourself to be openly accepting of Traditions of Men in some of your claims and confusing passages, thus I will remind you every time until you better yourself. You are dealing with a Unitarian from CSE, what did you expect?

That being said, I only bring them up briefly because I know if I bring up the specifics, you will wiped them out.

What is being asked of you is recent stuff, not past items so I ask you the following:

You directed your last response towards me being stubborn and persistent. So how is it this time I am somehow a Jew part of a Jewish Community? 

You can start with that, in the other thread you can address what is being asked of you there - otherwise this will be a reminder of you just as your very reflect always reminds you of who you are everyday and every night.

19 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

It's pretty boring, if you have not noticed, and if that has not already been said to you by someone else. Please, try to focus your response on actual subject and not to disperse, spin  discussion from Adam to Melchizedek to Revelation book. :)))

How haven't I noticed if I am the one who brings it up time and time again? I bring it up so people know your stance, so they can see for themselves or before such information is wiped out.

You know by now I respond to a response, if you've forgotten of how this recent response come to this point, there is no spinning because if the topic is of your focus, you'd have to checked.

I didn't start the thread, Srecko, look again and see how things turned up the way they are, you were not too focused yourself.

If you want to speak about Armageddon, speak your resolve now, but this time when you want to go back to this focus, you say, do so without adding opinion and emotion into the text, use the Bible this time, nothing else but that and what the Word itself says.

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1 hour ago, Space Merchant said:

You are dealing with a Unitarian

As i see you support Watchtower and Jehovah's Witnesses.

Does Watchtower and Jehovah's Witnesses support you as Unitarian and Unitarianism as movement?  

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On 10/6/2018 at 5:52 PM, JOHN BUTLER said:

And when i said how i felt i was being treated, i did not mean by you personally, I meant generally. . 

You are relatively new on this forum, if I'm correct. So my advice is don't take anything personally, whatsoever. It's ideas that are being dissected and discussed, not so much the character of the person. Although I agree, ideas can speak of the character of the person, I think a good discussion forum steers away from "ad hominem" ( @TrueTomHarley most admired expression) remarks and tries to keep to the issue at hand. That is the only way a subject can be properly explored. I think anyway.

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On 10/10/2018 at 11:48 AM, Srecko Sostar said:

As i see you support Watchtower and Jehovah's Witnesses.

Does Watchtower and Jehovah's Witnesses support you as Unitarian and Unitarianism as movement?  

It's not a support, it is merely correct the wrongs here. Like I told you before, if you say something that is in error, about Judaism, Islam and or even things of the Bible, I will speak, even if you say something out of line regarding JWs, I will speak, remember Glasgow and the Registry information you tried to pass off as something big? Things of that nature.

Unitarianism isn't a movement.... Do you even know what a Unitarian is or which denominations among them are present? That being said, you'd be surprise of how Restorationist tend to agree with others on some points.

 

Anyways, discussion, Armageddon, in accordance with you.

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On 10/10/2018 at 11:58 AM, Anna said:

You are relatively new on this forum, if I'm correct. So my advice is don't take anything personally, whatsoever. It's ideas that are being dissected and discussed, not so much the character of the person. Although I agree, ideas can speak of the character of the person, I think a good discussion forum steers away from "ad hominem" ( @TrueTomHarley most admired expression) remarks and tries to keep to the issue at hand. That is the only way a subject can be properly explored. I think anyway.

I would say he is semi-new. He was here several months ago I believe for I had the first discussion with him regarding his claim of focus.

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56 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

I would say he is semi-new. He was here several months ago I believe for I had the first discussion with him regarding his claim of focus.

Semi new indeed. The answer is simple. Sometimes I'm very busy and not near a computer for weeks, but other times I have time and energy to spend online. 

Sometimes, after working hard for someone all day, I just don't have the mental energy to even turn my computer on.

Tomorrow will be one of those day. Laying out and lotting up an auction of automobilia, heavy, dirty, and tiring. 7am until 7pm probably. So you may not hear from me. :) 

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1 hour ago, Space Merchant said:

It's not a support, it is merely correct the wrongs here. Like I told you before, if you say something that is in error, about Judaism, Islam and or even things of the Bible, I will speak, even if you say something out of line regarding JWs, I will speak,

Do you think that WT need You to correct things on what people say, talking  about their (JW) religion?

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11 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

May i ask, do you find no error in WT history about all  what they said and teach and interpret on Armageddon issue ? 

I want to discuss about Armageddon, and yet you run back to the WT which will lead to another spin of responses.

But to be brief, the Jehovah's Witnesses believe that Armageddon is the means by which God will fulfill his purpose for the Earth to be populated with happy healthy humans free of sin and death. They teach that the armies of heaven will eradicate all who oppose the Kingdom of God, wiping out all wicked humans on Earth, leaving only righteous mankind.

That being said, Armageddon focused, what do you think it is? In details, no cryptic responses, please - keep it Bible focused.

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16 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

I want to discuss about Armageddon, and yet you run back to the WT which will lead to another spin of responses.

But to be brief, the Jehovah's Witnesses believe that Armageddon is the means by which God will fulfill his purpose for the Earth to be populated with happy healthy humans free of sin and death. They teach that the armies of heaven will eradicate all who oppose the Kingdom of God, wiping out all wicked humans on Earth, leaving only righteous mankind.

That being said, Armageddon focused, what do you think it is? In details, no cryptic responses, please - keep it Bible focused.

Strecko, i see SM does not answer you question. Such a shame as he thinks he is so clever. 

SM forgets that this is a JW forum, which includes the W/T. 

He seems to know what the JW Org believe but does say if he thinks they are right or wrong, which is what you have asked. 

His only response is to return with a question. Perhaps SM thinks he is copying Jesus. Asking a question in response to a question.

But we know that the Bible Students / the  GB / JW org / Wt, have got it wrong on predictions of Armageddon. 

And in my opinion it will not be so horrific as the Watchtower magazines have shown it. i don't think Jehovah likes causing pain just for the sake of it. I think Jesus and the angels will just kill those not counted as worthy. It could be just take away the gift of life and the person would be dead. That happened, i think, with the husband and wife that lied about how much they sold a field for. Each of them just dropped dead....  i do wonder though if people will be shown, in their minds, what they could have had, and if that will be their pain, the knowing and not getting... 

But i think Armageddon is a long way off yet, even if the GB say it is just around the corner, or closer.

I think everyone has to realise how bad world conditions are, so it has to be really bad everywhere.   Although I know many people are suffering in many places. 

 

 

 

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20 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Strecko, i see SM does not answer you question. Such a shame as he thinks he is so clever. 

SM forgets that this is a JW forum, which includes the W/T. 

He seems to know what the JW Org believe but does say if he thinks they are right or wrong, which is what you have asked. 

His only response is to return with a question. Perhaps SM thinks he is copying Jesus. Asking a question in response to a question.

But we know that the Bible Students / the  GB / JW org / Wt, have got it wrong on predictions of Armageddon.

Yes John, our "friend" SM are Master in making fog and not to give direct, simple and honest, sincere respond or answer on some very important asking, question that would reveal His real position about JW.

Armageddon is topic here and we can not get SM simple and direct respond, despite the very significant title that Librarian put in question. 

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1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Strecko, i see SM does not answer you question. Such a shame as he thinks he is so clever. 

Because when he speaks out of line he will go off in a cryptic tangent, for this isn't my first rodeo with Srecko, hence why I go by HIS word to keep it focused. Unless you want to join him, you are welcome.

I don't think I am clever, as with my first discussion with you my words were obvious to which you accepted.

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

SM forgets that this is a JW forum, which includes the W/T. 

I haven't forgotten. I want to discuss Armageddon specifically with Srecko, anyone can chime in, but his stance is that the WT has some different view to which I explained to him briefly of what their view is, a quote, if you will.

But it would seem at this point the both of you do not know that much about Armageddon, which is ever so obvious.

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

He seems to know what the JW Org believe but does say if he thinks they are right or wrong, which is what you have asked. 

I merely quoted: 

    Hello guest!

nothing more.

If you go back to page 3, you will see what Srecko is asking for and I will quote him: It's pretty boring, if you have not noticed, and if that has not already been said to you by someone else. Please, try to focus your response on actual subject and not to disperse, spin discussion from Adam to Melchizedek to Revelation book. :)))

To which I responded: If yo u want to speak about Armageddon on, speak your re solve now, but this time when you want to go back to this focus, you say, do so without adding opinion and emotion into the text, use the Bible this time, nothing else but that and what the Word itself says.

So next time perhaps read the previous page before you jump ship, Butler.

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

His only response is to return with a question. Perhaps SM thinks he is copying Jesus. Asking a question in response to a question.

I think I am Jesus when time and time again I speak of myself as a slave, a servant. The question was posed because he thinks we are not focused, but if you want to jump in by all means, Butler, please do.

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

But we know that the Bible Students / the  GB / JW org / Wt, have got it wrong on predictions of Armageddon. 

No one is talking about predictions, we are speaking of solely Armageddon itself.

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

And in my opinion it will not be so horrific as the Watchtower magazines have shown it. i don't think Jehovah likes causing pain just for the sake of it. I think Jesus and the angels will just kill those not counted as worthy. It could be just take away the gift of life and the person would be dead. That happened, i think, with the husband and wife that lied about how much they sold a field for. Each of them just dropped dead....  i do wonder though if people will be shown, in their minds, what they could have had, and if that will be their pain, the knowing and not getting... 

This is your opinion, you should be using the bible. According to the Book of Revelations in the Greek New Testament of the Bible, Armageddon is pretty much the day of God, of which he will execute Judgement on the wicked and all that is bad.

God our Father is a God of Justice, for even in Bible times you bear witness to such and when his judgement has been executed it is for a good reason. If you think God is going to send his Son to throw flowers and cookies in the face of the wicked, you are dead wrong, Mr. Butler.

It is far more than that, along wickedness also includes those who try to test God, those who do not apply God's Laws, those who are for brazen conduct, glorifers of sin, and a list of other things. Jesus will be coming with the army of which his Father put him in command of for Jesus has been made superior after being exalted by God according to Hebrews 1, and they will go and enact Justice in the name of God, for the Lord and Savior will be coming with a sword, and he will come to do what he was sent to do, for as a King, as a Warrior, as a bene elohim of El Shaddai, he will do what is needed to rid wickedness off the face of the earth.

And no, they won't be dropping dead as they stand, what part of God's Army or coming with a sword did you not understand. Warriors and or Soldiers will confront their enemy, from a distance or close quarters, it is no different from how the angels and even the Christ himself will do to the wicked, and we already know what angels are capable of, we have not seen or read about Jesus doing such, but him being superior, one can only imagine, now as for God, well, that is a whole different ball game.

No they won't. Death is swift, mainly if the act is committed by God in terms of Justice, remember what happen to several notable people in the Bible? They were dealt with swiftly, in an instant. The wicked will not even have a millisecond to think, to blink, perhaps to take a slight of breathe.

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

But i think Armageddon is a long way off yet, even if the GB say it is just around the corner, or closer.

The Day of God can happen anytime, anywhere on this earth. This is why the Bible tells us explicitly to keep being vigilant for the day of God is near, as spoken of by Jesus and his followers, in to our day.

This is why we should endure and read the Word and follow it correctly and accordingly. You do not want to have the mindset of those who remained and or decided to return to Jerusalem, for such is foolish.

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

I think everyone has to realise how bad world conditions are, so it has to be really bad everywhere.   Although I know many people are suffering in many places. 

A great dealing of suffering, and a whole lot of it. In my experience what I had witnessed and heard, even by my hand, is like a haunting memory that torments. This is why I believe in the word, strongly, I believe in the truth and obvious be one to be an opponent of lies.

For I know God will send his Son again and help us for we are in need of such greatly.

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15 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Yes John, our "friend" SM are Master in making fog and not to give direct, simple and honest, sincere respond or answer on some very important asking, question that would reveal His real position about JW.

Armageddon is topic here and we can not get SM simple and direct respond, despite the very significant title that Librarian put in question. 

But your word on the last page pretty much contradicts what you are conveying here.

You wanted to speak about Armageddon, I agreed and even said let us use the Bible, then immediately right after that you speak of the Watchtower this, Watchtower that when I had told you to use the bible regarding Armageddon.

And next thing you know it will derail and you will speak of cryptic and or flawed things, then you will seek out admin to come to your aid as you have done several times already. If you do not want to box in the ring, you should not have hopped in to begin with, Srecko.

And yes, Armageddon is the topic here, let's discuss it using the bible lone, unless you want to continue to seek aid from JWs and not make an effort yourself, it shows you cannot actual use the bible without given mention of them, i.e. when speaking about women, you brought up JWs and you misused Galatians 3:28, thus revealing yourself to be a mainstream Christian without much of an effort, I do not like mainstream Christians as you can see for months now.

Clearly you never saw me as a friend, and never will and I do not care, especially with that witch doctor remark of yours you made against me before, assuming I would take offence but Mr. Butler did you the favor of preventing what I had to say to you when he shifted the topic, the first time I discussed with you and my word is true from the last page as it is now.

So that being said, I put both you and Butler to task regarding Armageddon by means of the Bible alone, so far, Mr. Butler didn't realize how things will go down by means of what is spoken of Revelations and what Jesus had said.

You want to speak about Armageddon, let's have it then, Srecko, you can use any bible translation you want, and I can guarantee you that you wouldn't get far without speaking about anything to do with JWs, as God bears witness to my words regarding this.

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If SM would be kind enough to go to the top of the page and read the Topic heading he will see IT IS ABOUT JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES  VIEWPOINT ON ARMAGEDDON. 

The question asked in the heading is 

What makes them think itÂ’ll still happen?

I'll make it clear here. It is. What makes the Jehovah's Witnesses think it will still happen ?

It is not out viewpoint on Armageddon that is asked for here. 

So over to all you JW's the question is aimed at you i think. But use your Bible please. :) 

I'll just add one thing though. Jesus warned of the fall of Jerusalem to the Romans, but it didn't happen for a long time. BUT it did happen. 

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3 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

If SM would be kind enough to go to the top of the page and read the Topic heading he will see IT IS ABOUT JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES  VIEWPOINT ON ARMAGEDDON. 

If you noticed I did say something before, how did you miss this? Let along a clear description later on as to what Armageddon is and what it represents? Page 1, response number 6.

 

3 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

The question asked in the heading is 

What makes them think i?tÂ’ll still happen???

Already explained as seen by my last post, I put in in a general sense of Christianity's view of Armageddon, the Great Day of God.

 

It will happen. If you believe the words of the Christ, you shouldn't be in doubt of what he said and what his Father will do. Do not be like Tomas/Didymus.

3 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

I'll make it clear here. It is. What makes the Jehovah's Witnesses think it will still happen ?

Because perhaps the Bible says so. When End Time Tribulations conclude, the Great Day of God will come to pass whereas the sheep and the goats will be separated, or the wheat of the harvest to be separated from the weeds of the field.

Jesus said this day is near, as did others in the Bible and we have examples of such by means of Sodom and Gomorrah, Noah's Day regarding the flood, The city of Jerusalem being attacked, Jonah being tasked by God to go to Nineveh, etc.

For us, this day will be a day whereas all men who are of wickedness and lawlessness, those having a total disregard for God's Laws will perish.

There is no middle ground between Life and Death.

3 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

So over to all you JW's the question is aimed at you i think. But use your Bible please. :)

Some of them have.

3 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

I'll just add one thing though. Jesus warned of the fall of Jerusalem to the Romans, but it didn't happen for a long time. BUT it did happen. 

Indeed, and you see the people at the time were in doubt and they paid for it. This example serves for us today for the coming day of God and the return of the Christ. The only different you now is you have God's adversary and God's chosen mighty warrior who is King that will return, and he will be accompanied by God's angelic army.

It makes you think. If a single angel can wipe out 185,000 Assyrian soldiers, how much you think the one made superior to the other angels in combination with the angels themselves will do when that day comes? For their assault will also be directed to those spirit beings who side themselves with Satan as well.

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@Space Merchant  It makes you think. If a single angel can wipe out 185,000 Assyrian soldiers, how much you think the one made superior to the other angels in combination with the angels themselves will do when that day comes? For their assault will also be directed to those spirit beings who side themselves with Satan as well.

Yes SM, it is very serious and does make me think. I hope I will be in the ground before it happens. 

 

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