JW.org Says Apostates are "Mentally Diseased"

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

It would seem that some JW's on here wear blinkers and worship their Governing Body. So be it if it gives them comfort.

@Anna  Side tracks by comparing the GB to the Pope, instead of comparing the GB to God's high standards of truth and honesty. 

Mr Harley side tracks by trying to make fun of others. 

I have mentioned before that i could feed you a meal of ¾ good food and ¼ poison. The problem being that the poison would contaminate the good food. 

The Bible Students and the JW Org have indeed produced some really 'good food', but unfortunately the GB go beyond the things written and jump ahead by interpreting Bible scriptures in their own way, without spiritual guidance it would seem. You don't need to ask me for examples as it's all been shown on this blog here before. 

[Anna]

2 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

but this is a JW forum

Are you kidding? 😀

The real JW forum is in...ahem.... the closed club

[TrueTomHarley]

35 minutes ago, Anna said:

Are you kidding? 😀

The real JW forum is in...ahem.... the closed club

Where never is heard a discouraging word

and the skys are not cloudy all day.    

1 hour ago, 4Jah2me said:

Mr Harley side tracks by trying to make fun of others. 

He’s just getting started. See comment on the other thread:

“Come, come. This is not a gentlemans’ club. The only gentleman here is @JW Insider, who astounds me with his civility, even in the face of downright hostile comments. I confess that I sometimes wonder if I should try to emulate him more.

His civility does him no good, however. Malcontents take his civility and beat him over the head with it. But he is of the sort who believes that theocracy dies in darkness, and I think their response does not matter to him,

   58 minutes ago,  4Jah2me said: 

A case in point where by Mr Harley only answers by trying to make fun of someone. 

It is a little mean, I will concede the point. And I have no problem apologizing. Still, when you take the stage to level the most outlandish accusations, ill-informed except for from the playbook of other opponents, you cannot cry if someone pointedly takes exception to your shooting from the hip.

Furthermore, my place is enshrined here by none other than @The Librarian herself (that old hen). It was her idea—not mine—to put me on a thread entitled TrueTom vs the Apostates. I protested. I didn’t want the job. I don’t go out of my way to pick fights with these characters. My protest fell on deaf ears. So I tackled the job with such ferocity that the entire thread was thrown into the abyss and I had to wear a Scarlet Letter, same as Hester Pryine—mine for “abuse.” (hers for “adultery”)

Two years later the experience proved the germ of an ebook, “TrueTom vs the Apostates!”

https://www.smashwords.com/books/view/917311

[JW Insider]

8 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

It would seem that some JW's on here wear blinkers and worship their Governing Body.

This might be true, but I think that you have had some trouble pinning this "GB worshiper" label on people here. You probably see a lot of potentially contradictory ideas that seem like cognitive dissonance to you. But this might just be a point that many thousands of JWs have reached, while trying to make sense of the extent of human imperfection in trying to put a human structure around good spiritual concepts.

We often look back at Israel's past, or even note the imperfect leadership of the early Christian congregation. Do we expect to be any better? Jesus said of the Pharisees and other religious leaders in his day that they had put themselves in the seat of Moses, and some ended up making "disciples" who were worse off than before they started. Yet what did Jesus also say about some of the same leaders?

Matthew 23:2-4 says: 2“The scribes and Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3So practice and observe everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4They tie up heavy, burdensome loads and lay them on men’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.…

We can still follow, even "obey" religious leaders, even when we know they are very imperfect.

Any organized religious structure will end up being led by men who are imperfect, and therefore by men that we can never trust 100 percent, no matter how well they think they are doing. This is really what we must always expect: "Put not your trust in earthling man (even princes/nobles) in whom no salvation belongs" "Let God be found true though every man be found a liar."

Still, Christianity requires a human, social structure because it is a "brotherhood." It's a place where we can comfort others and be comforted, encourage others and be encouraged, feed and clothe and visit others, and be fed, clothed, and visited as needed. But those who would be "leaders" at the very top of any organization will always tend to grasp at reasons to explain and hold on to their authority. They may not well understand this authoritative position they are engaged in, and human nature will lead them to continue in the type of behavior that works best for persons in authority. They will tend to look for what they believe is the best solution to any religious questions (doctrine, process), and then make a "command" out of it. It's the reason that we don't see a lot of public admission that a question has them vexed. Instead, in order for authority to work (for most of us) they must make a private decision about what solution works the best (least number of unexplained discrepencies) and then teach this "solution" (often conjecture) as if it is gospel. 

(1 Peter 4:11) . . .If anyone speaks, [let him speak] as it were [the] sacred pronouncements of God;. . .

(NIV) If anyone speaks, they should do so as one who speaks the very words of God. If anyone serves, they should do so with the strength God provides, so.

Some of these "oracles" will attract sycophantic followers. That's also human nature. Russell acted as one of those "oracles" and so did Rutherford and Fred Franz, and David Splane to an extent. Just like in the first century congregation, people followed Paul, or Apollos, or Peter, who were all fine ministers. Some of us want to think of these modern day examples as being apostle-like. Some might even be apostle-like, but it's up to us to never just accept them this way, but to put all new teachings to the test.

(Revelation 2:2, 14) . . .and that you put to the test those who say they are apostles, but they are not, and you found them to be liars.. . . you have there those adhering to the teaching of Baʹlaam, . . . you also have those adhering to the teaching of the sect of Nic·o·laʹus. . . . you tolerate that woman Jezʹe·bel . . . I say to the rest of you who are in Thy·a·tiʹra, all those who do not follow this teaching . . .

Notice that Jesus' instructions to the 7 congregations was never about waiting for a governing body of apostle-like persons to tell them what was true and false teaching. It was the congregation's own responsibility to put to the test anyone who wanted them to be accepted as apostle-like. They were responsible to compare it to the true original apostolic source (for us, the Biblical source of teaching)  "Therefore, continue mindful of how you have received and how you heard, and go on keeping it. . ." (Revelation 3:3)

As an aside, I would also say that the congregation is a place to inculcate the existing Bible teachings, not a place to find "new" teachings. It's a place to keep our spirits up, and keep our love alive, so that we can endure. Jesus addresses those in the congregations, but ends this section by making a point about how they all would stand to be judged as individuals.

(Revelation 3:19-22) 19 “‘All those for whom I have affection, I reprove and discipline. So be zealous and repent. 20 Look! I am standing at the door and knocking. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come into his house and take the evening meal with him and he with me. 21 To the one who conquers I will grant to sit down with me on my throne, just as I conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne. 22 Let the one who has an ear hear what the spirit says to the congregations.’”

We're never going to get away from leaders who are imperfect and who will, by human nature, tend to ask us to believe and act only in a certain way. This is useful for some, especially at first. But we should also mature:

(Hebrews 5:14) 14 But solid food belongs to mature people, to those who through use have their powers of discernment trained to distinguish both right and wrong.

[Arauna]

4 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Jesus' instructions to the 7 congregations was never about waiting for a governing body of apostle

Thank you for this reply. I showed it to a bible student. 

To add a thought:  by this time,  most apostles had died and congregations had to learn to be more mature and function on their own. Many of the issues encountered by early congregations such as adherance to the law were resolved by the GB in Jerusalem.  Now they had to keep out apostacy (which was already present especially the Greek philosophy / influence in Greek congregations. Worship of individuals, or following has always been an inclination of some.....and John warns about this.

Yet, individual responsibility - as you brought out- is prime.

[Arauna]

14 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

why would I, or you, be occupied with idea how only Me or You are in position of having best Bible knowledge  in comparison to some other religious group who also think how they know the Bible (better than others)??

 

Just to mention one thought: churches teach the immortality of the soul - so even if they profess that they believe in the sacrifice of Jesus ..... they do not teach that Jesus "really" died. The bible says Jesus put his "soul" in death ...... he did not exist at all for 3 days but   after 3 days jehovah resurrected him with immortality. Jehovah  gave him immortality as a reward for his faithfulness.  He was the first to receive immortality.  

I just want you to think how important it is that one must understand the death of Jesus to call yourself a Christian. I can bombard you with many scriptures to prove the above truth to you but I do not think this forum  is the place to do it.

The same goes for the teachings about the Jehovah' s name, the future kingdom of God etc.  These CORE teachings of truth are not adjusted. Other things regarding prophecy, better understanding of illustrations etc time related teachings, have been adjusted..... but the core teachings - which make us totally different to all other religions  - is core teachings of truth from the bible.

Hindus, Buddhists, Islam, and most other religions teach the immortality of the soul........ which is a lie from satan. Its origins come from ancient Babylon in teachings of the "underworld". Some of this has led to the teaching that people will burn forever in a literal fire because the soul cannot be destroyed..... it is immortal.   But the bible says: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.  Ezekiel 18:4. King James. 

On 11/14/2019 at 6:55 AM, Witness said:

You're kidding, right?

We were talking about modern times.  I should have remembered you always revert back  to the past.

The GB are 'now' very careful to not infer anything which can be interpreted as a date for Armageddon because of the maliciousness of enemies who dig up things to accuse. 

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

8 hours ago, JW Insider said:

This might be true, but I think that you have had some trouble pinning this "GB worshiper" label on people here. You probably see a lot of potentially contradictory ideas that seem like cognitive dissonance to you. But this might just be a point that many thousands of JWs have reached, while trying to make sense of the extent of human imperfection in trying to put a human structure around good spiritual concepts.

We often look back at Israel's past, or even note the imperfect leadership of the early Christian congregation. Do we expect to be any better? Jesus said of the Pharisees and other religious leaders in his day that they had put themselves in the seat of Moses, and some ended up making "disciples" who were worse off than before they started. Yet what did Jesus also say about some of the same leaders?

Matthew 23:2-4 says: 2“The scribes and Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3So practice and observe everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4They tie up heavy, burdensome loads and lay them on men’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.…

We can still follow, even "obey" religious leaders, even when we know they are very imperfect.

Any organized religious structure will end up being led by men who are imperfect, and therefore by men that we can never trust 100 percent, no matter how well they think they are doing. This is really what we must always expect: "Put not your trust in earthling man (even princes/nobles) in whom no salvation belongs" "Let God be found true though every man be found a liar."

Still, Christianity requires a human, social structure because it is a "brotherhood." It's a place where we can comfort others and be comforted, encourage others and be encouraged, feed and clothe and visit others, and be fed, clothed, and visited as needed. But those who would be "leaders" at the very top of any organization will always tend to grasp at reasons to explain and hold on to their authority. They may not well understand this authoritative position they are engaged in, and human nature will lead them to continue in the type of behavior that works best for persons in authority. They will tend to look for what they believe is the best solution to any religious questions (doctrine, process), and then make a "command" out of it. It's the reason that we don't see a lot of public admission that a question has them vexed. Instead, in order for authority to work (for most of us) they must make a private decision about what solution works the best (least number of unexplained discrepencies) and then teach this "solution" (often conjecture) as if it is gospel. 

(1 Peter 4:11) . . .If anyone speaks, [let him speak] as it were [the] sacred pronouncements of God;. . .

(NIV) If anyone speaks, they should do so as one who speaks the very words of God. If anyone serves, they should do so with the strength God provides, so.

Some of these "oracles" will attract sycophantic followers. That's also human nature. Russell acted as one of those "oracles" and so did Rutherford and Fred Franz, and David Splane to an extent. Just like in the first century congregation, people followed Paul, or Apollos, or Peter, who were all fine ministers. Some of us want to think of these modern day examples as being apostle-like. Some might even be apostle-like, but it's up to us to never just accept them this way, but to put all new teachings to the test.

(Revelation 2:2, 14) . . .and that you put to the test those who say they are apostles, but they are not, and you found them to be liars.. . . you have there those adhering to the teaching of Baʹlaam, . . . you also have those adhering to the teaching of the sect of Nic·o·laʹus. . . . you tolerate that woman Jezʹe·bel . . . I say to the rest of you who are in Thy·a·tiʹra, all those who do not follow this teaching . . .

Notice that Jesus' instructions to the 7 congregations was never about waiting for a governing body of apostle-like persons to tell them what was true and false teaching. It was the congregation's own responsibility to put to the test anyone who wanted them to be accepted as apostle-like. They were responsible to compare it to the true original apostolic source (for us, the Biblical source of teaching)  "Therefore, continue mindful of how you have received and how you heard, and go on keeping it. . ." (Revelation 3:3)

As an aside, I would also say that the congregation is a place to inculcate the existing Bible teachings, not a place to find "new" teachings. It's a place to keep our spirits up, and keep our love alive, so that we can endure. Jesus addresses those in the congregations, but ends this section by making a point about how they all would stand to be judged as individuals.

(Revelation 3:19-22) 19 “‘All those for whom I have affection, I reprove and discipline. So be zealous and repent. 20 Look! I am standing at the door and knocking. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come into his house and take the evening meal with him and he with me. 21 To the one who conquers I will grant to sit down with me on my throne, just as I conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne. 22 Let the one who has an ear hear what the spirit says to the congregations.’”

We're never going to get away from leaders who are imperfect and who will, by human nature, tend to ask us to believe and act only in a certain way. This is useful for some, especially at first. But we should also mature:

(Hebrews 5:14) 14 But solid food belongs to mature people, to those who through use have their powers of discernment trained to distinguish both right and wrong.

@JW Insider  Having just put my computer on (11 am UK time) I find i have eleven comments to read through. Your comment here is number one. So if anyone has already answered you I haven't read it yet, and I am just answering on this comment alone  

I see a lot of confusion here, but I'll try my best. 

Quote 'We're never going to get away from leaders who are imperfect and who will, by human nature, tend to ask us to believe 'and act only in a certain way. '   In short you are saying that the GB dictate to the congregants and the congregants are expected to obey. 

However, Quote 'Jesus' instructions to the 7 congregations was never about waiting for a governing body of apostle-like persons to tell them what was true and false teaching. It was the congregation's own responsibility to put to the test anyone who wanted them to be accepted as apostle-like.' 

(Revelation 2:2, 14) . . .and that you put to the test those who say they are apostles, but they are not, and you found them to be liars..

So there you have the GB that tells congregants to do as they are told and to  " believe 'and act only in a certain way. ' "

But Jesus said it was the congregations responsibility to put them to the test.  However if a member of a congregation does put the GB to the test, you and I know exactly what would happen to them. We can see on here what happens to anyone that should dare to say the GB are not the F&DS.  Even though the GB admit that they are not inspired.

And on that point, everyone should note that HUGE difference between our time, and the first century Christian time.

The leaders of first century Christianity WERE Inspired. The leaders, of any religion now are NOT inspired. That makes a huge difference when making any comparison. In fact IMO it takes away all comparison.  It also questions how anyone now would know if they are of the Anointed, if they are not inspired ? but maybe that is for another topic.

  2“The scribes and Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3So practice and observe everything they tell you. 

Well actually Jesus' disciples didn't practice and observe many of those things. Animal sacrifices, circumcision, probably the washing of hands (how many times ?)  etc.   

Quote "We can still follow, even "obey" religious leaders, even when we know they are very imperfect."

But would you honestly want to ? Would you want to go door to door with a message, if in your heart you knew it was not a true message ?  Overlapping generations for instance?   And would not your heart be heavy if you obeyed just to remain 'true and faithful' to your leaders ?  Hence worshipping the GB and its Elders. 

For instance I remember reading on here, and I'm sorry i cannot reference it,  about the GB /Writing Dept / Watchtower, saying it was OK for witnesses to tell lies as it was Spiritual Warfare. It may have been referring to Elders under certain circumstances, but to give the ok to tell lies. I think it was from a Watchtower publication and it looked genuine when i read it. 

"Put not your trust in earthling man (even princes/nobles) in whom no salvation belongs"

Didn't one of the GB make a statement that God trusts the GB so all congregants should trust the GB ?  Oh, I do wish I could find these things to show proof ! 

Anyway I'm sure you can see my quandary, and this is just with this one comment of yours. I have ten more comments to read yet. I need coffee  

[TrueTomHarley]

44 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

We can see on here what happens to anyone that should dare to say the GB are not the F&DS.

I don’t think that we can see it here. In fact, JWI has said just that about the GB, or something very close. 

This is the second time you have addressed JWI and I have interrupted before he can answer. Ideally, I won’t do it again. But you make very strong statements on things you do not understand. You had no idea the role of the workbook, for example, and yet made the most ludicrous charge about it. 

If this is going to be your gig, it may be that you should attend congregation meetings for awhile, or even accept a Bible study, so that you can familiarize yourself with what you have decided to weigh in on.

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

52 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

I don’t think that we can see it here. In fact, JWI has said just that about the GB, or something very close. 

This is the second time you have addressed JWI and I have interrupted before he can answer. Ideally, I won’t do it again. But you make very strong statements on things you do not understand. You had no idea the role of the workbook, for example, and yet made the most ludicrous charge about it. 

If this is going to be your gig, it may be that you should attend congregation meetings for awhile, or even accept a Bible study, so that you can familiarize yourself with what you have decided to weigh in on.

@TrueTomHarley  Yes My Harley you do poke your nose in  .

I have attended enough congregation meetings to know that on a Thursday eve' here in the UK, congregants are given instruction with demonstrations as to what and how to present material on the doors. Magazine demonstrations are regular items. 

As for a Bible study, the title is actually misrepresentation. It is actual a book study sometimes using the scriptures as reference. It can therefore be seen as indoctrination of GB / JW Org thinking. If it was purely a JW answering questions asked by a member of the public, and using the Bible to answer those questions, that could be called a Bible study. As an example of this, if you have copies of JW books from the 1960's / 70's, you will notice great changes in 'doctrines' / teachings from then up till now. But if you have a Bible from back 100 years, God's word never changes. 

[TrueTomHarley]

3 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

As for a Bible study, the title is actually misrepresentation. It is actual a book study sometimes using the scriptures as reference

In school, I studied math. But I refused a textbook because that was not really math, but was a book about math. 

I also studied science. But I refused a textbook because that was not really science, but was a book about science. 

What! Those frauds were trying to indoctrinate me!  But I was too clever for them.

7 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

Yes My Harley you do poke your nose i

Well....you do have me there.

[Witness]

13 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Yet what did Jesus also say about some of the same leaders?

Matthew 23:2-4 says: 2“The scribes and Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3So practice and observe everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4They tie up heavy, burdensome loads and lay them on men’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.…

We can still follow, even "obey" religious leaders, even when we know they are very imperfect.

Any organized religious structure will end up being led by men who are imperfect, and therefore by men that we can never trust 100 percent, no matter how well they think they are doing. This is really what we must always expect: "Put not your trust in earthling man (even princes/nobles) in whom no salvation belongs" "Let God be found true though every man be found a liar."

…for they do not practice what they preach”.  They were teachers of the law, and it was God’s law that they were not practicing. They had veered away from purely teaching the Word of God, resulting in spiritual immorality. So they, too, were “Jezebels”, who tacked on their own laws and traditions that were to be observed by the people.   Prov 30:5,6

“You shall not add to the word that I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God that I command you.”  Deut 4:2

“But woe to you Pharisees! For you tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass by justice and the love of God. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone. ⁴³ Woe to you Pharisees! For you love the best seats in the synagogues and greetings in the marketplaces. ⁴⁴ Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like graves which are not seen, and the men who walk over them are not aware of them.”

⁴⁵ Then one of the lawyers answered and said to Him, “Teacher, by saying these things You reproach us also.”

⁴⁶ And He said, “Woe to you also, lawyers! For you load men with burdens hard to bear, and you yourselves do not touch the burdens with one of your fingers.

The entire time Jesus preached, he told the Jews to “come to me”, which would require leaving a corrupt system of leadership.  Matt 11:28

“Let them alone; they are blind guides. And if the blind lead the blind, both will fall into a pit.” Matt 15:14

That system was abandoned by God. Matt 23:38  Jesus taught that he brought fulfillment of the law through his teachings. Matt 5:17-20  If any anointed one fails to lead people to Christ, and instead lead people to themselves and their expectations of obedience to what they say; they too, are “jezebels”. 

¹⁹ Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. ²⁰ For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Matt 5:19-20

Has the GB relaxed the commandments God established with his anointed priesthood?  Yes.  2 Chron 13:9; 23:6,7  Does the GB practice justice?  No, that is even recognized in the court systems.    Do they follow the form of a perfect “religion”?  No. Have they been exposed as liars?  Yes.  Do we have any obligation to adhere to their teachings?  No. Jer 23:16  Has their righteousness exceeded that of the Pharisees?  Absolutely not.  

 The reality when following Christ is that an earthly organized structure patterned after any other religion in the world, is not needed to worship God.  John 4:24  We can trust Christ and the Father to direct us, if we have faith.   

 

 

[Srecko Sostar]

7 hours ago, Arauna said:

Just to mention one thought: churches teach the immortality of the soul - so even if they profess that they believe in the sacrifice of Jesus ..... they do not teach that Jesus "really" died.

 

7 hours ago, Arauna said:

These CORE teachings of truth are not adjusted. Other things regarding prophecy, better understanding of illustrations etc time related teachings, have been adjusted..... but the core teachings - which make us totally different to all other religions  - is core teachings of truth from the bible.

In one hand this way of reasoning is valid. But, of course i need to notice this too. We can argue or make consensus about "core" teachings and about those that are "less" important teachings. If such categorization even exist!!! 

For example, blood transfusion.

1) CORE teaching is: we do not take transfusion of whole blood.

2) MINOR teaching is: we can take blood fractions.

What makes this two teachings to be in 2 categories? The 1) is command, mandatory and disobey such teaching brings you dfd and JHVH judgment. The 2) is not command, but your personal choice and no one will ask you to give report on your decision. 

Also, i would like to incorporate in this conversation and reasoning another element. But that doesn’t mean that the law has lost its force. It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the smallest point of God’s law to be overturned. ...... But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away, than for one tiny stroke of a pen in the Law to become void. - Luke 16 two versions

In this Jesus' words i see just opposite of common custom when WT Society and elders interpret, and you repeat it here, how some teachings are core and some are not. Why? Another reasoning we also find in Bible. If you are faithful in little things, you will be faithful in large ones. - Luke 16 With this looking on subject about teachings, that some  people consider to be somehow small or smallest in  significance and value, we see how Jesus' perspective is not on same level that people have, about what is big and important and what is small and unimportant.

With this what i wrote, I can't agree with explanation you offered, how some WT Society teachings are more important than others. Because, Jesus words showed me different way on how to look on details.

Also, as conclusion, few JW doctrines that are supposedly the truth, can't save you from judgement about others doctrines that are supposedly lie.  :))    But I tell you that everyone will have to give account on the day of judgment for every empty word they have spoken. - Mat 12