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JW.org Says Apostates are "Mentally Diseased"


Jack Ryan

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51 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

We can argue or make consensus about "core" teachings and about those that are "less" important teachings. If such categorization even exist!!! 

Of course they do! It is true with any discipline.

51 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

For example, blood transfusion.

1) CORE teaching is: we do not take transfusion of whole blood.

2) MINOR teaching is: we can take blood fractions.

What makes this two teachings to be in 2 categories?

The first follows from a clear Bible law to “abstain from blood,” one of the few carryovers from the Mosaic law.

The second is an adaption to modern technology and reflects an unwillingness to dictate people’s consciences. Some will say that even the tiniest fraction is blood. Others will say, “it’s not a cake until you mix the ingredients.”

51 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

But I tell you that everyone will have to give account on the day of judgment for every empty word they have spoken

Yes. And for the most part that account will be: “Oops,” and that will be the end of it. It is only you who expect perfection from these guys. Witnesses don’t. They didn’t sign on like kids expecting Santa Claus. 

(Plus, you would have to define what you mean by “empty.” Just because something is modified in the light of new developments does not mean the original was “empty.”)

Always the quarreling point will be the divine/human interface. It was even true with Judas. He and God were tight—there were no problems there! But that fellow that claimed to be the Messiah was not at all what Judas had been expecting. And those yo-yos he was attracting—don’t even go there.

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First of all, before I begin answering, I wanted to say that I have long expected that any JWs who go online to defend their views publicly will see more and more of what is beginning to happen here.

The original post states that "JW.org Says "Apostates are Mentally Diseased." Whilst true, what is ommitted is that JW.org  is reflecting the Bible's view. Apart from what has already been quoted

Yes. I wrote up a post on this at the time and included how other translations handled the verse. An excerpt:   (from https://www.tomsheepandgoats.com/2019/01/who-is-mentally-diseased.html ) “Mor

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34 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Also, as conclusion, few JW doctrines that are supposedly the truth, can't save you from judgement about others doctrines that are supposedly lie.  :))    But I tell you that everyone will have to give account on the day of judgment for every empty word they have spoken. - Mat 12

Excellent statement.  

It is the "word of God" that lives and imparts power, and discerns the "thoughts and intents of the heart". Heb 4:12  Can the words of men do that?  Can men judge another's spiritual outcome through their imposed "words"?  The organization does just that.  Disfellowshipping, a spiritual "killing",  is largely based on organizational doctrine.  Rev 13:15   Only God's Word is our judge, as stated in the scripture you supplied.   Men's doctrine does not contain life.   

 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account.  Heb 4:13

 

13 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

And for the most part that account will be: “Oops,” and that will be the end of it. It is only you who expect perfection from these guys. Witnesses don’t. They know they are people.

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’  Matt 7:21-23

Do the scriptures say that God's will includes following men's doctrine?

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42 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Yes. And for the most part that account will be: “Oops,” and that will be the end of it.

That’s a little too flippant. I’ll walk it back. @Srecko Sostar @4Jah2me

Even @Witness

“To he who has been given much, much will be expected” is more like it, and the GB operates, in my view, in harmony with that.

Sometimes in pushing back, one overreacts. The idea that I was trying to convey is that humans are not perfect, even those with responsibility, and Jehovah’s Witnesses accept that as a given.

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3 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

In school, I studied math. But I refused a textbook because that was not really math, but was a book about math. 

I also studied science. But I refused a textbook because that was not really science, but was a book about science. 

What! Those frauds were trying to indoctrinate me!  But I was too clever for them.

Well....you do have me there.

@TrueTomHarley  You honestly do make yourself sound stupid with some things you write. (AS you have said about me)

What is supposed to be, or is 'advertised as' a Bible study, should be a study of the Bible. Would you have refused to use a Bible in a BIBLE STUDY ?   

The books used in a so called 'bible study' are books written by the GB or Writing Dept' of JW Org / Watchtower, and are therefore only aimed at getting people into the JW Org.  Add to that, that the books are continually changing the teachings, doctrines, beliefs, whichever words you wish to use. So much so that some books get withdrawn or at least no longer discussed in public.  Lets harp back a few years when the teaching was 'each creative day is 7,000 years long'. Many people would have studied a book saying exactly that. Now the Bible has never said that has it ?  And the Org no longer seem to believe that either. So there is one tiny bit of evidence that JW Org books are not fully reliable, and cannot be a substitute for Gods' word.  

Maths is maths so basic maths shouldn't change. 'Science', well as it's part of the world in a lot of respects, it changes constantly.  BUT GOD'S WORD THE BIBLE DOES NOT CHANGE., that's the point. 

 

8 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

That’s a little too flippant. I’ll walk it back. @Srecko Sostar @4Jah2me

Even @Witness

“To he who has been given much, much will be expected” is more like it, and the GB operates, in my view, in harmony with that.

Sometimes in pushing back, one overreacts. The idea that I was trying to convey is that humans are not perfect, even those with responsibility, and Jehovah’s Witnesses accept that as a given.

I wonder if Almighty God and His son are being, and will continue to be, so forgiving of the Governing Body as you seem to say JW's are.  I wonder if there is actually any holy spirit flowing down from above to your GB / Writing Dept' / Lawyers /  Elders et al. 

I do wonder in fact, if  'much has been given' to the GB, or have they in fact, stolen it.  JW's (well maybe in your opinion anyway) seem to forgive many of the GB's mistakes, deliberate wrongdoings, man made rules etc. But I have noticed on here that even JW's (or those that appear to be JW's) seem not to believe or agree with much of the GB's 'new light'.  

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22 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

I wonder if Almighty God and His son are being, and will continue to be, so forgiving of the Governing Body as you seem to say JW's are.

I did note in our assigned Bible reading for this week the 2 John 4 verse: “I rejoice very much because I have found some of your children walking in the truth.”

He did not find “all” of them doing so. He found “some” of them doing so. And what of the ones who were not?

If the atmosphere was anything like it is here, the brothers taking the lead were being blamed for all of them. Even the fact that they are now regarded as “inspired” would not have saved them in the eyes of their critics, who did not believe it for a second.

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19 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

The first follows from a clear Bible law to “abstain from blood,” one of the few carryovers from the Mosaic law.

The second is an adaption to modern technology and reflects an unwillingness to dictate people’s consciences. Some will say that even the tiniest fraction is blood. Others will say, “it’s not a cake until you mix the ingredients.”

Hi Tom. 

I agree how we need to be "adapted". But that sounds also as in science books that explaining "evolution theory". Species were "adaptable" and .... survived. :)))

Do you suggest and say how God's inspired words need GB and their human uninspired  intervention according to modern Technological progress?  And not only to technology, because why to stop on only such adaptations. Why you not going further and say, how God's inspired words need GB and their human uninspired  intervention according to modern progress in Culture and Thoughts

You said how GB is unwilling to dictate people's conscience? What is base for your perception? GB made religious teachings and sorted them in 2 lines. They decide how things in one line are mandatory and in second are free choice. By such act they had already, prior to any of your attempt to make decision, made decision in your name and cancelled/ annulled  activity and pursuit of your conscience. If we have legal regulation, than we have no need for conscience. Conscience was designed for other purpose, not to be under Power of Law. 

What shall we going to mix? :))

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3 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

and cannot be a substitute for Gods' word.  

I don't ever remember anyone saying, or thinking, or insinuating that JW publications are a substitute for God's word. Even my Bible study, an educated Chemistry teacher, understood the role of JW publications.

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14 minutes ago, Anna said:

I don't ever remember anyone saying, or thinking, or insinuating that JW publications are a substitute for God's word. Even my Bible study, an educated Chemistry teacher, understood the role of JW publications.

@Anna I think you miss the point. In the so called bible study, more time is given to the book than is given to God's word.  And the book is uninspired, so only man's viewpoint.  Many who accept a JW 'bible study' are not so highly educated and will be prepared to accept JW teachings and written words as true. But as I've said twice already, the books are to get people into the JW Org, and the information / doctrines / ideas,  change quite often, so cannot be counted on as true. 

3 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

I did note in our assigned Bible reading for this week the 2 John 4 verse: “I rejoice very much because I have found some of your children walking in the truth.”

He did not find “all” of them doing so. He found “some” of them doing so. And what of the ones who were not?

If the atmosphere was anything like it is here, the brothers taking the lead were being blamed for all of them. Even the fact that they are now regarded as “inspired” would not have saved them in the eyes of their critics, who did not believe it for a second.

 @TrueTomHarley    Talking of blood you said "Others will say, “it’s not a cake until you mix the ingredients.” " 

Whereas the blood was already mixed surely and was full blood, but it has been broken down from that mixture.  A bit like un-mixing your cake. 

And I'm not quite sure who you are referring to above, as to  ' they are now regarded as “inspired ' .  Do you mean the first century Christians or the present GB ?  

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1 hour ago, Anna said:

Even my Bible study, an educated Chemistry teacher, understood the role of JW publications.

 

50 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

Many who accept a JW 'bible study' are not so highly educated and will be prepared to accept JW teachings and written words as true.

She puts a bug in the ear of the chemistry teacher to tell them it is okay.

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2 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

 I think you miss the point. In the so called bible study, more time is given to the book than is given to God's word.  And the book is uninspired, so only man's viewpoint.  Many who accept a JW 'bible study' are not so highly educated and will be prepared to accept JW teachings and written words as true. But as I've said twice already, the books are to get people into the JW Org, and the information / doctrines / ideas,  change quite often, so cannot be counted on as true. 

I think you've been missing the point all those years ago when you started studying with JWs.

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