JW.org Says Apostates are "Mentally Diseased"

[TrueTomHarley]

On 11/15/2019 at 11:54 PM, JW Insider said:

I like it that @TrueTomHarley is standing in for me, but he is probably also concerned that, on my own, I'll end up throwing the GB under the bus.

I check their bodies for tread marks daily. Sometimes I have to rub out a few.

On 11/15/2019 at 11:54 PM, JW Insider said:

Personally, I think it's a good thing that more and more JWs are prepared for just this type of barrage. 

I do, too. Few of them are, however. They are not encouraged to be. They are encouraged to align themselves with, “If you know what is true, there is no reason to examine what is falsehood.” There is a serious downside to this counsel, however.

One thing that I greatly admire about the GB is that they go where they are convinced the Bible tells them to go, and they don’t care if there is a downside or not. I do not believe they lay this “follow truth, and ignore falsehood” policy only upon us. I think that they follow it themselves, and look at controversy no more than is absolutely necessary, in accord with Jesus’ “No man at the plow who keeps looking at the things behind is well suited for the kingdom of God,” as modified by Russell into: “If you stop to kick every dog that barks at you, you’ll never get very far.”

They don’t look in the rear view mirror too much. They are thus the exact opposite of crusaders against them, in fact, pundits and policy makers in general, who ONLY look in the rear view mirror, skewering the doers as they do nothing themselves, “holding people accountable,” making them “take responsibility,” but offering nothing positive beyond a new law or two, which the scoundrels immediately find ways to sidestep.

On 11/15/2019 at 11:54 PM, JW Insider said:

But the Internet easily allows anyone to become capable of bringing these exact same challenges to us. So they are not specifically "apostate" challenges.

Yes. I made this point to a couple of elders who were trying to dissuade me from “engaging with apostates.” I am not engaging them, I replied, at least not for their own sakes. It is almost always a lost cause engaging them for their own sakes, I have found (somewhat to my dismay). Yet, “apostates” have succeeded in catching the ear of major media. The latter run prominent—even front page—articles against Witnesses, which we may not read, but everyone else does. In pushing back at these articles, you necessarily cross paths with these “apostates,” and in doing so, some perceptions will change. You get a better feel for them. They still remain the enemy, but you get to appreciate how some became so. You have to know where the enemy is coming from. It is the first rule of any military strategy. It is the first rule of any legal strategy, as well. Could it be that when Witness attorneys represent them in court, they have not acquainted themselves with “apostate” reasoning? They are extremely poor attorneys if that is the case. 

The two brothers had not read the barrage of articles, or even one of them, probably, and were inclined to think that what was out there was inconsequential, the product of scurrilous rag sheets. How about the New York Times and the Washington Post? I said. I don’t think that I would be able to desist kicking back at this point. I know how to answer this stuff, or at least I think I know. Moreover, I see that such attacks are almost never answered—certainly not effectively, and usually, not at all. 

I have taken on the role of “apologist” for Jehovah’s Witnesses, and have been put down before on that account. But I respond with “apologist” being derived from “apologia,” which means “speaking in defense.” Those who dismiss Christian apologists, therefore, are simply bullies who think that they should not have a defense.

As an apologist, I do not tell the GB what they are doing wrong. Nor do I know. There are many things that I don’t like, but that does not mean that remedying them to suit myself would improve matters. Maybe it would do just the opposite. I reflect that that there IS no other faith that incorporates the dozen-or-so essential Bible truths that JWI has pointed to—much less anyone that obeys the direction to preach them. Maybe true faith can only exist within a hostile world the way that it IS existing. That is why I hesitate to insist, and often even mention, my “solutions.” They might not be solutions at all.

If I counted my online time, then easily I have been special pioneering for years. But I don’t count it because the Witness organization can hardly be said to encourage it. And for the most part, when brothers think that they will witness online, the effect is horrible, imo. Scrupulously avoiding any matters of controversy, jettisoning anyone who brings them up, they say: “Do you wonder what is the truth about hell?” The answer is NO! Religious people do not wonder, and non-religious people do not care. 

I would be happy if there was not so much dissuasion to take on the “villains.” Villains are what make the show interesting—ask any TV or movie producer. I would not like to see a call to arms to battle the villains, for the villains are relentless, their gripes are unending, and many are slimy—the counsel to steer clear is hardly unwise. But I would like to see the yellow light given should anyone choose to kick back at the points these guys make.

The “even the tiniest bit of poison that we would never want to drink” is not really consistent with the fact that vaccines (and homeopathy, in a different way) operate on this very principle: expose one to just a little bit of the sickness so that when it is encountered later in the wild, immunity will have developed. Instead, we have the ridiculous situation of youngsters falling for the oldest foible of human nature—doing something because they have been advised not to. Sooner or later, they chance upon some “apostate” literature or other material. When they do, and out of curiosity give it a scan, they are floored—not because it is so overwhelmingly persuasive, but because they are totally unprepared for it. They may be seriously stumbled, and from there the situation worsens. The adults who should be able to help them cannot—because they have no idea what is there themselves. All they can say is, “Don’t read that stuff!” Trust me, opponents are very good at exploiting those words. “See?” they say. “They want to make sure your blinders remain firmly in place.”

That’s why my hero in this regard is @Anna. Long ago, she declared that she would keep abreast of “apostate” thinking so that she would be able to help her teenaged son should he ever come across and be stumbled at their attacks. It only sweetens the story that (last I heard) the kid (he can’t be a kid anymore) is happily pioneering and wondering why his mom is hanging out with all those crazies on the internet.

Nor would I say, from this distance, that opposing the villains has harmed her spiritually. It certainly has not done that with me. Quite the opposite. Villains offer a contrast to what is not villainous, and many things are more clearly appreciated for their contrast. “Drink this gloop,” the doctor says. “Never mind if it tastes like you-know-what. It will produce the contrast we need so that we can more readily appraise your health.”

Case in point coming up, after I dodge my wife. She wants me to do some maintenance around the house. What is wrong with that woman? Can’t she see I am busy correcting someone who is wrong on the internet?

 

[Witness]

54 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

As an apologist, I do not tell the GB what they are doing wrong. Nor do I know. There are many things that I don’t like, but that does not mean that remedying them to suit myself would improve matters. Maybe it would do just the opposite. I reflect that that there IS no other faith that incorporates the dozen-or-so essential Bible truths that JWI has pointed to—much less anyone that obeys the direction to preach them. Maybe true faith can only exist within a hostile world the way that it IS existing. That is why I hesitate to insist, and often even mention, my “solutions.” They might not be solutions at all.

54 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Case in point coming up, after I dodge my wife. She wants me to do some maintenance around the house. What is wrong with that woman? Can’t she see I am busy correcting someone who is wrong on the internet?

 

🙂  How can I not love you, even though you continue to drink (maybe reluctantly at times) the GB's koolaid?  Acts 20:29,30; James 1:21

 

 

 

 

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

Quote  " They don’t look in the rear view mirror too much. "   Yes the two reasons the GB don't look in the  rear view mirror too much are these. 1. They are frightened to see how much damage they have done to people. 2. Their guilt would overpower them and their conscience would make them step  down. 

[Arauna]

On 11/16/2019 at 2:02 AM, 4Jah2me said:

Many who accept a JW 'bible study' are not so highly educated and will be prepared to accept JW

Maybe in USA this is true.  Many of my JW  friends in Sweden are well educated  and here in Rep Georgia most have higher education. 

I found educated people in Sweden very silly. Why?  They are totally secular and for 3 decades have learnt only about Darwinism in school and higher education. They are not interested in the bible at all and state they do not believe in a creator.  When one discusses evolution with them one discovers they have just accepted evolution without thinking it through......It is a myth that highly educated people think logically or only go where the evidence lies. Dogma or brainwashing  at universities deprive students of critical thinking skills.

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

1 hour ago, Arauna said:

Maybe in USA this is true.  Many of my JW  friends in Sweden are well educated  and here in Rep Georgia most have higher education. 

I found educated people in Sweden very silly. Why?  They are totally secular and for 3 decades have learnt only about Darwinism in school and higher education. They are not interested in the bible at all and state they do not believe in a creator.  When one discusses evolution with them one discovers they have just accepted evolution without thinking it through......It is a myth that highly educated people think logically or only go where the evidence lies. Dogma or brainwashing  at universities deprive students of critical thinking skills.

So much of what you say can be used against the JW Org. 

Some people accept what JW 's say in a so called Bible Study. I know for fact that here in the UK during a study JW's  say things like 'If you don't understand that we will come back to it later, but just accept it for now'.  (Yes I've sat in on bible studies). 

Brainwashing in JW Org "deprive students of critical thinking skills".  

Hence when some JW's do start to think, and start to study God's word personally,  they tend to leave the Org. 

[TrueTomHarley]

1 hour ago, 4Jah2me said:

I know for fact that here in the UK during a study JW's  say things like 'If you don't understand that we will come back to it later, but just accept it for now'

What they probably say is, “put it on the shelf for now,” Of course! Intelligent people do that all the time. 

I had 4 years of high school and three years of college under my belt when I came across JWs in the course of a summer job. My religious life was now and then attending the Presbyterian Church that my Mom belonged to, and in time, being confirmed there myself. Presbyterianism comes in several varieties—this one was in the liberal tradition and my mom would best be described as attending for the social benefits. (My dad would read the huge Sunday paper, looking forward to some solitary time as Mom herded us off. “Religion is good for kids,” he would say as we cleared out. He never set foot there himself.)

I was indoctrinated in evolution, both from schooling and from church. Do you really think someone in that position is going to quickly accept Adam and Eve? It’s like accepting Mickey Mouse and Donald Duck. However, everything else I was learning made so much sense—I loved the way the pieces fit together. It had never occurred to me that they could. Adam and Eve was the lynchpin for much of it, though. 

It provoked, to coin a term that I would not hear until 50 years later, “cognitive dissonance.” However, cognitive dissonance is easily remedied by telling oneself that you don’t need to know everything this instant. You can always “come back to it later.” “Put it on the shelf” if something does not make sense in an otherwise compelling picture—maybe it will later. This proved to be the case with me.

I had fifteen years of evolutionary schooling, with nothing to counter it. I believed in evolution absolutely. I had to “put it on the shelf” while I examined some extraordinarily attractive and convincing ideas and later come back to it.

[Space Merchant]

Apostasy is as it is as it always is to be. The term that JWs use has no problem in this sense because the God defiling and hating ill are as they are - mentally depraved. Alienate from the good news gospel, is in the realm of Apostasy when you move said person away from what the Bible says, be it by means of his or her own interpretation of the Bible vs. the charismatic folk.

[Arauna]

6 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

Some people accept what JW 's say in a so called Bible Study.

If people do not understand what they learn they will later drop out.   But I was speaking about so-called "educated" people. It is a myth that the educated expect solid evidence and make decisions on solid evidence - even evolution at higher education level is indoctrination and not based on facts.

It is not a myth though that the teachings of trinity,  immorality of the soul and hellfire originated in pagan religion and are not biblical teachings.  These false teachings obscure the true value of the randsom sacrifice - the most important teaching in the bible. So if a person understands that Jesus put his soul in death and has faith in it, he is much better off than remaining in church teachings.  His bible study has given him a chance to everlasting life. 

[Space Merchant]

@Arauna Not all educated people know their Bible. Sadly, you have some Christians and preachers proclaiming positive by means of showing that the Bible supports Homosexuality and exploiting the love and forgiveness that is God and through his Christ.

But yes, the majority of the world is intertwined with the false teachings of mainstream Christendom, this includes what you've mentioned

8 hours ago, Arauna said:

It is not a myth though that the teachings of trinity,  immorality of the soul and hellfire originated in pagan religion and are not biblical teachings.  These false teachings obscure the true value of the randsom sacrifice - the most important teaching in the bible. So if a person understands that Jesus put his soul in death and has faith in it, he is much better off than remaining in church teachings.  His bible study has given him a chance to everlasting life. 

False teachings, practices, etc of which this world's Christianity's embraces needs to be refuted. Another thing is, false teachings such as these are the very ones that is actually declining Christendom and putting Islam and Spirituality on the raise, so in this sense, Trinitarians are indirectly harming themselves, but makes the job harder for legitimate preachers of the truth to teach the truth of the Bible.

The truth of the Scriptures are interpreted differently by some, but the core conclusion is what is needed to be proclaimed in regards to the Bible in order to push out a professed truth - in short, someone may speak of what happened at Mount Gerizim differently and or what is in Revelations differently, but the core conclusion to said teaching is what remains the same, and said teaching must be taught to the people and or the person in the Bible study itself - helping said reader to not just read, but also to apply, and even meditate on what is learnt. Then you have Apostates who teach and twist and even throw in a bit of hate, I had my far share of such ones who claim to be Christian and defend false teachings and preach that Jesus loves everyone and that homosexuality is okay, or the fact that God has no care for the Earth he has created - they are gravely wrong.

That being said, falsehood is everywhere, but there is and always will be a small handful of people who will minister and teach the truth, often times such ones are the very ones who are targets.