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If Armageddon happened how would we all be killed?

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Jack Ryan -
Space Merchant -
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Would we just drop dead? Would it be painful? Would we suffer? Would we know? If we die wouldn’t our sins be forgiven anyways cause if not that makes god a liar. No one ever talked About how we would all die

Arrow to the chest by Jesus on a mighty steed?

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NÃO SE PREOCUPE COM ISSO!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No Armagedon, aqueles que ridicularizam a promessa de Deus, onde os fiéis viverão para sempre num paraíso terrestre fazendo a vontade Dele, e ainda por cima fazem hoje uma oposição renhida à Sua vontade, "poderão" perder o privilégio de viver aqui na Terra para todo o sempre! 

JÁ É HORA DE VOCÊ CAIR NA REALIDADE!!!! 

 

 

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20 hours ago, Querotevernoparaiso said:

JÁ É HORA DE VOCÊ CAIR NA REALIDADE!!!! 

Maybe he IS finally falling into reality.  Armageddon is fought in the valley of DECISION; the time period where both truth and deceitful lies are presented. 2 Thess 2:9-12  It is the making up of one's mind to love one or the other, and the ultimate judgment of each one of us, when we face Christ.     Joel 3:14;   Dan 7:9,10,22; John 5:22

2 Pet 3:7 -  But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

Jer 23:29 - “Is not My word like a fire?” says the Lord,
“And like a hammer that breaks the rock in pieces?

Any casualties are the resulting influence Satan has over this world. 1 John 5:19   Doesn't he already perform that now?  Out of rage of losing his earthly kingdom, who knows what he'll do.  Rev 12:11,7,8

 

 

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@Witness He may be referring to haters of God, which was the case with enemies of God as seen in the Old Testament, examples like Gideon to both Zebah and Zalmunna, both of them who clearly were not fans of God and were quick to mock, resulting in Gideon taking his blade to take them both out himself instead of Jether, Gideon's firstborn doing it himself. And of course there will also be a gnashing of the teeth and wailing of those who assume they are for God, but clearly ate out of the hands of falsehood.

As for the verses in question, John's vision is prophetic. The Angel of the Abyss is regarding the one called Satan the Devil and that part in what is also mentioned, in whole, points to Revelations 9:1 and 20:1-3.

 

That being said, for anyone who does not read Portuguese, what @Querotevernoparaiso said is the following:

DO NOT WORRY ABOUT IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!

In Armageddon, those who ridicule God's promise, where believers will forever live in an earthly paradise doing His will, and today make strong opposition to His will, "may" lose the privilege of living here on earth for all the time!

IT IS TIME FOR YOU TO FALL INTO REALITY !!!!

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26 minutes ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Nice! it's refreshing to find someone that understands scripture. Unlike Portuguese, we use google translate for that, and we use linguists to make sense of ancient writings. It doesn't matter just about anything else, but an interpretation is a must.

Agreed, also I actually did use Google Translate for that one, if it was French or Spanish I wouldn't have a need for it though.

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@BillyTheKid46 French is my birth language, but some of my family speaks Spanish also, so I have 2 languages including English, which I find easy to learn granted at the time my family had already moved to the US. I know other languages too, but I'd give myself a 5 out of 10 for them, but for Greek and Hebrew, I do not speak it, but I can understand a bit of both in terms of writing and some words and language forms, the Hebrew was a bit of self-teaching though and learned a bit more from a man named Jeff A. Benner, a Hebrew Professor and Researcher.

For Bible Translations I mainly use the ESV version, secondary being the AS, and on rare occasions the YLT and or NIV.

As for the other things mentioned, I'd have to look into them, but I do dwell heavily on Biblical Hermeneutics.

That being said, the google translation is indeed a good tool when it comes to seeing what someone is saying, although it isn't always correct. And as for the verses in question, examples from the Bible are clear and understood when brought up.

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@James Thomas Rook Jr. 

Qual é mesmo a pergunta? 

EU NÃO ENTENDI!!! Nem usando o Google translate! 

Acho que... o problema do mau entendimento, NÃO FOI DO TRANSLATE DO GOOGLE!!! 

MAS SIM... da sua infeliz tentativa em comparar algo que vai ser bom para a humanidade, assim como foi prometido, com os filmes de ficção que ridicularizam esta magnífica promessa de Deus :

* Não haverá mais morte, guerras, fome, doenças, catástrofes, etc...etc.. 

A HUMANIDADE VIVERÁ NA TERRA EM CONDIÇÕES PARADISÍACAS!!!! 

Eu... se fosse você... não gozava com o aviso prévio do nosso Criador, porque o que promete Jeová, CUMPRE!!! 

JÁ ESTÁ MAIS DO QUE NA HORA DE VOCÊ LEVAR A SÉRIO A PALAVRA DELE!!! 

NÃO ESTAMOS NO TEMPO PARA BRINCADEIRAS!!! 

RETORNE, RETORNE, RETORNE PARA JEOVÁ DE TODO O SEU CORAÇÃO!!! 

 

Mas cada cabeça sua sentença! 

 

 

 

 

 

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Obrigado por seu conselho ... mas muitos dos meus comentários são 
o que chamamos em inglês "tongue in cheek", ou seja, uma piada
leve e sutil com algum elemento de verdade.

Eu suspeito que isso não se traduza bem em outros idiomas sem um
especialista muito real em ambos os idiomas, que tenha senso de
 humor e entenda o humor em ambos os idiomas.

É claro que, para o humor ser engraçado, deve conter ALGUM 
elemento de verdade.

Thank you for your advice .... but a LOT of my comments are what we call in English "tongue in cheek", that is to say a subtle light hearted joke with some element of truth.


I suspect this does not translate well into other languages without a very real expert in both languages, who has a sense of humor, and understands the humor in both languages.


Of course, for humor to be funny, it must contain SOME element of truth.

 

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@James Thomas Rook Jr. @James Thomas Rook Jr. 

The joke lies in the incredulity of the people in the real amargedon because of the movies that speak of it?

Do not even understand this English humor?? 

MAS o seu português está excelente!!!  É de certeza melhor do que o meu inglês do Google!  ?

SERÁ QUE A SUA AMABILIDADE PODERIA EXPLICAR-ME A PIADA EM PORTUGUÊS? 

Obrigada! 

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The only joke I know in Portugese is this one:
A rabbi, a Priest and a Muslim Cleric walk into a bar mitzvah,

and the bartender asks if they brought their Hippopotomus. 

 

A única piada que conheço em português é essa:
Um rabino, um padre e um clérigo muçulmano entram em um bar mitzvah,

e o garçom pergunta se trouxeram seu hipopótamo.

 

 

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11 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

If Armageddon happened how would we all be killed?

My guess is boredom from watching "bunker videos".

Not all only the wicked and those of lawlessness and all things bad. One thing for certain - it will not be a flood.

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13 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

The Angel of the Abyss is regarding the one called Satan the Devil and that part in what is also mentioned, in whole, points to Revelations 9:1 and 20:1-3.

Watchtower has an interesting idea on the identity of that “star”:

With a loud trumpet peal the fifth angel announced the loosing of the abyssed “witnesses” and their work that followed. Was this to be a “woe” to “those dwelling on the earth”? With prophetic vision the apostle John watched to see. Look! A “star” had fallen, not into the sea or into the fresh waters, but to the earth. But its fall was not disastrous to it. Rather, this “star” comes as a Freedom-giver, a Liberator of others, for “the key of the pit of the abyss was given him.” He is also a King, for he is “the angel of the abyss” and is the King of those whom he releases from the abyss; in harmony with which fact those whom he releases wear what, to John, “seemed to be crowns like gold.” This symbolic “star” also has a name for this occasion. In Greek its name is Apollyon, which means Destroyer. In Hebrew it is Abaddon, which means Destruction. All these features about this symbolic “star” reveal him to be the glorified Jesus Christ.  Wt 69/12/1

I agree with you that the “angel of the abyss” is Satan, who IS the Destroyer, and not Jesus Christ. 

But, If the falling star of Rev 9:1 was Satan, who is giving him the key to the abyss? 

In Rev 9:1, the star is falling from a heavenly position. This star releases the army of locust-scorpions from the abyss with a key (authority) given to it by one who is “king” over “the angel of the abyss”, the Destroyer.  Rev 9:11

 In Rev 20:1-3, an angel “comes down from heaven”, but isn’t falling.  That angel chains Satan in the abyss for a “thousand years”, who happens to be Christ.  

They are not the same identity. 

The star that fell from the sky has a name – Wormwood. Rev 8:10,11; Jer 23:15; Amos 5:7; 1 Cor 10:12; 2 Pet 3:17; Prov 5:3-5

 

 

 

 

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17 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Revelation 9:5-7 some might try to die laughing, but at who and for what? ?

Still wondering if you can explain.  :) Do you agree with the Watchtower quote I posted above?  Who do you feel fit the identity of the locust-scorpion army?  

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1 hour ago, Witness said:

Watchtower has an interesting idea on the identity of that “star”:

If you wanted to talk about stars, it would have been best to bring that up to begin with. Before you single them out, it would be best to look at commentary first.

1 hour ago, Witness said:

With a loud trumpet peal the fifth angel announced the loosing of the abyssed “witnesses” and their work that followed. Was this to be a “woe” to “those dwelling on the earth”? With prophetic vision the apostle John watched to see. Look! A “star” had fallen, not into the sea or into the fresh waters, but to the earth. But its fall was not disastrous to it. Rather, this “star” comes as a Freedom-giver, a Liberator of others, for “the key of the pit of the abyss was given him.” He is also a King, for he is “the angel of the abyss” and is the King of those whom he releases from the abyss; in harmony with which fact those whom he releases wear what, to John, “seemed to be crowns like gold.” This symbolic “star” also has a name for this occasion. In Greek its name is Apollyon, which means Destroyer. In Hebrew it is Abaddon, which means Destruction. All these features about this symbolic “star” reveal him to be the glorified Jesus Christ.  Wt 69/12/1

The star in question is in reference to the one with the keys, the one who binds up Satan and keeps him there, hence the verses in question is regarding the one who is to remain in the abyss – Satan the Devil.

1 hour ago, Witness said:

I agree with you that the “angel of the abyss” is Satan, who IS the Destroyer, and not Jesus Christ. 

I do not believe I said, anywhere, “he is”, I simply stated that the Angel of the Abyss is regarding the one called Satan the Devil, one of the reasons I showed the references to begin with because those verses connected with that of the others, not even outlined, granted in Satan's case it is of whom he will be dealing with. Jesus on the other hand, is spoken of as the Morning Star (or the bright day star), hence the secondary reference in my previous comment. Granted in that reference, we are aware that Satan later on, is imprisoned for some years soon to be released and will ultimately receive his final judgement, furthermore, the Bible tells us exactly as to what will happened to him, and his eventual demise.

1 hour ago, Witness said:

But, If the falling star of Rev 9:1 was Satan, who is giving him the key to the abyss? 

The key wasn’t not given to him. For if he is to be chained up there, why would a fallen angel have keys to his own prison in the great deep that is the abyss?

 

1 hour ago, Witness said:

In Rev 9:1, the star is falling from a heavenly position. This star releases the army of locust-scorpions from the abyss with a key (authority) given to it by one who is “king” over “the angel of the abyss”, the Destroyer.  Rev 9:11

 In Rev 20:1-3, an angel “comes down from heaven”, but isn’t falling.  That angel chains Satan in the abyss for a “thousand years”, who happens to be Christ.  

Hence why I gave references for the angel of the abyss regarding Satan the Devil.

1 hour ago, Witness said:

They are not the same identity. 

Of course, but now you are left with a reference for Revelations 9:11, hence the ones in chapter 8. One thing for certain, Jesus was not mentioned at all in said reference. The first verse in 20 points back to 9:1.

1 hour ago, Witness said:

The star that fell from the sky has a name – Wormwood. Rev 8:10,11; Jer 23:15; Amos 5:7; 1 Cor 10:12; 2 Pet 3:17; Prov 5:3-5

The 3rd one you speaking of? In the Book of Revelation, Wormwood also refers to the water being turned into wormwood and or bitter made bitter.

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23 hours ago, Matthew9969 said:

Plenty of watchtower publications show us all how we are going to die, I saw a movie on it.

 

You should check out the imaginary online. Armageddon is called the Day of God for a reason, and the Christ himself will be coming like a Mighty Warrior upon mankind, both the good and the wicked, an to the wicked his sword will be directed.

You spoke before about reading the Bible, it should not be a surprise of how things will go down, granted we have examples in the Old Testament and what is spoken of as to what is to come.

 

Armageddon means (in the New Testament) the last battle between good and evil before the Day of Judgment. a biblical hill of Megiddo, for the hill itself is in regards to an archaeological site on the plain of Esdraelon, south of present-day Haifa in Israel.

ezekiel-38-39-battle-armageddon-gog-mago

russians-attacking.jpg

 

God's Day is nigh, of which side you are for?

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On 10/16/2018 at 9:28 AM, BillyTheKid46 said:

Let’s clarify something as in Pastor Russell’s time through print. In this case, not articles but this forum.

 

The clarification is in 15 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

 

 

The Angel of the Abyss is regarding the one called Satan the Devil and that part in what is also mentioned, in whole, points to Revelations 9:1 and 20:1-3.

 

 

Witness,” I agree with you that the “angel of the abyss” is Satan, who IS the Destroyer, and not Jesus Christ.”

 

If Satan is the angel that WILL be cast to the abyss with his demons (proper wording) as a state of experience that Jesus himself experienced, death Romans 10:7, then it is clear the symbolic understanding of Revelation 20:1

 

Then, this would be the appropriate way to understand your rebuttal illustration of the Watchtower December 1, 1969, no page given to be Christ that he himself experienced the abyss and will come as a falling star.

 

How is this in anyway confusing to a literary Bible student? Just keep in mind not to continue to violate the Watchtower copyright law, Witness.

 

Dear Billy.  I believe your answer is just as confusing as the WT’s.   Here is the info you wanted:  Pages 712-726, paragraph 29 

 I’m also realizing with the help of JWI, that it’s possible “Billy” may be someone else I’ve conversed with under another member name.  Because of that, I leave my answer here for all JWs, not wishing to engage further in that member’s continual ad hominem rage against any who reject WT’s lies.   

How is the organization’s version confusing to a literary Bible student, which explains Jesus as the Destroyer?   Simply because it contradicts scripture.  Any teaching that contradicts scripture has its roots in “confusion”, the meaning behind the word, “Babylon”.   “Wormwood”, a bitter root that poisons waters of truth, plays a central part in Revelation’s Babylon.   She is the “great” falling star of Rev 9:1. Rev 8: 10,11  https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev+9%3A1%3B+Rev+8%3A+10%2C11&version=NIV

“Do not become idolaters as were some of them. As it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.” Nor let us commit sexual immorality, as some of them did, and in one day twenty-three thousand fell; nor let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed by serpents; 10 nor complain, as some of them also complained, and were destroyed by the destroyer. 1 Cor 10:7-10

“Woe to youdestroyer, you who have not been destroyed! Woe to you, betrayer, you who have not been betrayed! When you stop destroying, you will be destroyed; when you stop betraying, you will be betrayed.”  Isa 33:1

 Are there two Destroyers, Satan and Jesus?  Are WT’s spiritual leaders so illiterate that they cannot see WHO the Destroyer really is?  Jesus came to save, not destroy.  Don’t you think it is quite contradictory to believe Jesus, (yes, Jesus and not an organization) is salvation, which is the giver of LIFE, and yet also a DESTROYER OF LIFE?  John 14:6; 20:30,31  He conquers with the “breath of his mouth” and with “the brightness of his coming”, at the time of the end. 2 Thess 2:8   https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+14%3A6%3B+20%3A30%2C31%3B+2+Thess+2%3A8+&version=NKJV

He is the Word, which is Truth. John 1:1; 17:17  His Spirit (breath) is imparted into the hearts of faithful “stars” to expose such lies as the quote from the Watchtower above.  Gen 15:5; 26:4; Dan 12:3; Gal 3:29; Matt 24:3; 7:7; 5:19; 2 Cor 10:4-6; Eph 6:12-14; John 15:26; Matt 13:41,42; Rev 11:1-5

    Hello guest!

 

Acts of the Destroyer:

“When the Lord goes through the land to strike down the Egyptians, he will see the blood on the top and sides of the doorframe and will pass over that doorway, and he will not permit the destroyer to enter your houses and strike you down.”  Exod 12:23

“By faith he left Egypt, not fearing the king’s anger; he persevered because he saw him who is invisible. 28 By faith he kept the Passover and the application of blood, so that the destroyer of the firstborn would not touch the firstborn of Israel.”  Heb 11:27,28

Who desired to destroy Jesus Christ, the firstborn “among many brethren”, by using a pawn to do so”? Matt 2:7,8,12; Luke 22:2-4 (Rom 8:29) 

    Hello guest!

“He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.”  Col 1:15

Who would love to destroy the remaining “firstborn” of all of God’s children at the time of the end?  Jesus or Satan?  Num 3:12,13; 1 Pet 2:9; Gal 4:26; Rev 12:1-4 - notice, “stars” 

    Hello guest!

Incredibly, WT states that the locusts emerging from the abyss are the anointed ones bringing their tormenting message to the world, via the preaching work.  What a concoction of lies,  thoroughly cloaking the army’s true mission of bringing to ruin God’s owned anointed “land”.  Joel 1:6,7,17,20, 25-27 https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Joel+1%3A6%2C7%3B+2%3A17%2C20%2C+25-27+&version=NIV

“They (the locust-scorpion army released by the fallen star) were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheadsThey were not allowed to kill them but only to torture them for five months. And the agony they suffered was like that of the sting of a scorpion when it strikes. During those days people will seek death but will not find it; they will long to die, but death will elude them.”  Rev 9:4-6

 WHO need to be SEALED in order to reign in heaven with Christ?

Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: “Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.”Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.”  Rev 7:2-4 

Do you realize you are saying that Jesus will return as a falling star, releasing an army to come against his own unsealed priesthood? I hope JWs can see that this is absurd. The one who opens the abyss, releases an oppressive army that effectively holds down God’s “saints” with their dictating fist!   Common sense should tell all JWs that anyone who “torments” or “tortures” another, is not practicing righteousness.  Rev 9:5,6; John 13:34,35  

    Hello guest!

When the locust-scorpions are in full attack mode against his priesthood, Jesus returns to his Temple to measure each Temple “living stone” according to God’s decrees.  Wormwood’s stinging army reigns over them; “Gentiles”, torturing and trampling the Temple/anointed ones as the Man of Lawlessness. Rev 11:1-3; Dan 11:31,36; Acts 20:29,30; Matt 24:15; Luke  21:24; 2 Thess 2:3,4 (1 Cor 3:16,17; 2 Cor 6:16 ; Eph 2:20-22) 

    Hello guest!

These “Gentiles” are the elders, who ‘seem to wear crowns of gold’, replacing Christ’s priesthood/Temple with themselves, as the WT picture below suggests. Rev 9:7  (WT 17 March pg 3-8, “Give Honor to Whom It is Due”)    Are Christ’s anointed priests mentioned in this article?  Not at all, but the elders are highlighted as worthy of receiving honor, even robbing God’s priesthood and all JWs of what the true meaning behind the picture is to represent.  With subtle indications, the picture and article point to the Man of Lawlessness as present or ”sitting” in the Temple of God.  2 Thess 2:3,4.  The elder body is a “disgusting” counterfeit of the holy Temple priesthood that now has no name, no face, and no position before the Heavenly Father and their High Priest, Jesus Christ, in the organization. Matt 24:15; Ezek 44:6-9; Num 18:7; 1 Cor 3:16,17     https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev+9%3A7%3B+Matt+24%3A15%3B+Ezek+44%3A6-9%3B+Num+18%3A7%3B+1+Cor+3%3A16%2C17++&version=NKJV

Wormwood “poisons” waters of living truth. Rev 8:11 “She” once held her “heavenly” position in Christ, yet has fallen for the offers of Satan, becoming his pawns to come against the remaining ones of the woman’s seed. Luke 4:7; Rev 8:10,11; Jer 23:15; Amos 5:7; 1 Cor 10:12; 2 Pet 3:17; Rev 12:17 https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=+Rev+8%3A11%3B+Luke+4%3A7%3B+Rev+8%3A10%2C11%3B+Jer+23%3A15%3B+Amos+5%3A7%3B+1+Cor+10%3A12%3B+2+Pet+3%3A17%3B+Rev+12%3A17+&version=NKJV

If Wormwood is able to poison truth with her lies, bringing many in touch with death, she does so as a false prophet.  John 7:38; Matt 24:5   She is the Beast from the Earth, appearing to come in the name of Christ, but has indeed fallen from her “heavenly” position. Rev 13:11; 2 Pet 3:17; Amos 5:7 

These composite false prophets have independently severed themselves from God and Christ to serve their new Master, Satan.  “She” appears to be “great” (Matt 5:19), as she exalts herself over her “fellow slaves”. Rev 8:10 Matt 24:48-51  She blazes like a torch or lamp, falling on the “earth”, on the anointed House of God, which is the owned habitation of God.  As I once did, and millions also, the anointed and companions have been drawn to your leaders’ light, without realizing the sinister plan that lies behind it’s false brilliance. (Ps 104:1,2; Job 18:5,6,14)  Acts 7:48-51; Matt 5:14-16; 1 Cor 3:16,17; 2 Cor 6:16; Eph 2:19-22; Rev 1:5  https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=+Matt+5%3A19%3B+Rev+8%3A10%3B+Matt+24%3A48-51%3B++Ps+104%3A1%2C2%3B+Job+18%3A5%2C6%2C14%3B+Acts+7%3A48-51%3B+Matt+5%3A14-16%3B+1+Cor+3%3A16%2C17%3B+2+Cor+6%3A16%3B+Eph+2%3A19-22%3B+Rev+1%3A5&version=NIV

Wormwood’s locust army is a military strategy hatched under both Satan and Wormwood’s direction; growing to ultimately restrain and torment the dwelling of God, as the the Beast from the Sea. Joel 2:1-5; 2 Thess 2:7; Rev 9:5,10; 13:1,5-7   https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Joel+2%3A1-5%3B+2+Thess+2%3A7%3B+Rev+9%3A5%2C10%3B+13%3A1%2C5-7+++&version=NKJV

Do you know that the “sea” is another symbol for Satan’s realm, including those in it; and is termed, the abyss in Rev 11:7?   Isa 57:20,21; Isa 27:1  After tormenting the saints, the Beast from the Sea/abyss is authorized to  “kill” (disfellowship) Christ’s priests for joining with Christ in truth, fully rejecting Wormwood’s waters.  Yet, this army no longer has the power to “restrain” them, as they expose its true identity as the Man of Lawlessness.  Rev 13:7; 11:3,7; 1 Pet 5:8; Isa 51:10; Rev 16:12; 11:11,12; 12:10,11      

    Hello guest!

Notice who gives this Beast power:

“The dragon gave him his power, his throne, and great authority.” Rev 13:2b

 Rev 9:3 – “Then out of the smoke locusts came upon the earth. And to them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.” 

Since the Beast from the Sea/abyss is under the direction of the Beast/false prophet, then who gives the fallen star, Wormwood, a “key” or the authority to direct the Wild Beast, in Satan’s deceitful ploy?  The King of the abyss, Abaddon (“Destruction”) in Hebrew, but in Greek he has the name ApollyonDestroyer.  He is Revelation’s dragon.    Rev 9:1,2,11; 13:11,12,14-17  https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev+9%3A1%2C2%2C11%3B+13%3A11%2C12%2C14-17&version=NKJV

 “Sheol and Abaddon are never satisfied; and a man’s eyes are never satisfied.”  Prov 27:20

The organization’s lie that Abaddon is “the glorified Jesus Christ” is pure mockery and DECEIT.

 “Sheol is naked before God, and Abaddon has no covering.”  Job 26:6

Does God feel this way about His Son?  John 8:54; Luke 9:28,29; 2 Pet 1:17; Rev 1:12-16 

    Hello guest!

The abyss, Sheol, Hades, all represent the consignment to darkness and death, and is associated with Abaddon.  As a JW, I believed that the abyss was a location that couldn’t be seen by the physical eye, but was somewhere on the spiritual side of the universe.  However, it is symbolism for the unending darkness, the bottomless pit of deep deceptions that Satan uses to blinds the spiritual senses, which can lead to death. 

It is the realm of “not perceiving”. 

Sheol/Hades:  from the combination of two root words –

Alpha – “when prefixed to words as an inseparable syllable” it means “giving a negative sense to the word to which it is prefixed”

Eidō – “to perceive with the eyes, to perceive by any of the senses, notice, discern, discover”

“Here and there the name Sheol appears in tandem with the name 

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, which means destruction (Psalm 88:11). It's also known as the pit (בור, 
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; Isaiah 38:18), the abyss (αβυσσος, abussos; Luke 8:31, Romans 10:7)  
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https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ps+88%3A11%3B+Isa+38%3A18%3B+Luke+8%3A31%3B+Rom+10%3A7&version=NKJV

When Jesus bound Satan and threw him into the abyss in the first century for the symbolic “thousand years, he was prevented from perceiving how to fabricate his end time delusion, which “shatters” the power of the holy ones. This didn’t hinder his ability to cause havoc in other ways around the world.  His demand to “sift” each one in Christ as “wheat” was still enforced, before enacting his ultimate devastating strategy against the unsealed “remaining ones”. He has accomplished this with the help of the fallen star and her army of locust-scorpions.    Luke 10:17-20; Mark 3:27; Rev 20:2,3; Luke 22:31; Eph 2:1-3; Rev 20:4; Dan 7:7,23; 12:7; Rev 12:17   

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Without Christ, we remain in darkness, not spiritually cognizant of his light of Truth. John 1:5; 1 John 2:11; Eph 4:17,18  When Eve sinned, Satan gained authority (a key) over the “whole world” and mankind came under the result of condemning sin – death.  At Jesus’ coming, he said, “I am the light of the world” – a world that exists in spiritual darkness. 1 Cor 2:12;  Phil 2:15  Christ conquered death’s grip upon mankind, but we must come to his light to be saved; otherwise the darkness of the abyss remains with us.  Phil 2:14,15  He received “authority” to release us from this spiritual darkness, and we are rescued from the captivity of “not perceiving” the true light of Christ, if our hearts desire to turn to Christ.   https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+1%3A5%3B1+John+2%3A11%3B+Eph+4%3A17%2C18%3B+1+Cor+2%3A12%3B++Phil+2%3A15%3B++&version=NKJV

In Revelation, all the named titles of wickedness to come against God’s anointed under the New Covenant, are enhanced characteristics of the same two entities.

Wormwood, and its locust-scorpion army torment the anointed who have not been sealed.

The Beast from the Earth gives authority to the Wild Beast from the Sea to blaspheme God’s Temple saints and war with them.   

The Wild Beast from the Sea is the Man of Lawlessness that “tramples”/”torments” God’s Temple priests/saints, and is the locust-army released from the pit of deception.

The Beast from the Earth, as Wormwood, is a composite false prophet appearing as if from Christ,  but poisons the living waters of Truth with lies from Satan’s mouth.

False prophets are spiritual Harlots. 

  For the lips of an adulteress drip honey.
    Her mouth is smoother than oil,
But in the end she is as bitter as wormwood,
    and as sharp as a two-edged sword.
Her feet go down to death.
    Her steps lead straight to Sheol. Prov 5:3-5

These Harlot “daughters” seduce God’s people/”kings of the earth” to commit “fornication” with her by drinking her “wine” which is produced from the wild vine she has attached herself to.  Rev 17:2; Deut 32:32  https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev+17%3A2%3B+Deut+32%3A32++&version=NKJV

Revelation’s two entities that work harmoniously to destroy the saints, are partners of darkness with Satan.  They have gained the art of deception, from him.  

“And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs coming out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 For they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the earth (Rev 1:5) and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.” Rev 16:13,14

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Their final identifying mark surrounds “the camp of the saints” holding them spiritually captive in Satan’s “abyss”.   Rev 13:9,10; Col 2:8  

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“Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.”  Rev 20:7-9

The anointed “saints” receive the brunt of torment, trampling, treading, poisoned waters,  deception, and the threat of “killing” for discarding their, shackles when choosing to follow  Christ in repentance.  Rev 3:18  But, you would never know it while residing in the WT organization where “peace, health, prosperity” and security are promised in “Jehovah’s organization”.  Those who have fallen into the same trap, also suffer, if one’s adoration given to both Beasts, terminates.  1 Thess 5:3; Rev 13:14,15 

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Satan gives the “authority” or the key of deception to Wormwood, the false prophet/Harlot.  Christ has obtained the “authority” and power over deception and death, by conquering it.  Heb 2:14-16   https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews+2%3A14-16&version=NIV

This does not make him Abaddon, Apollyon or the Destroyer. 

As I said earlier, any casualties during Armageddon and at its culmination, are the result of the authentic Destroyer of life, Satan the Devil, before he is thrown into the Lake of Fire. 1 Cor 15:24; Rev 20:10,14  https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Cor+15%3A24%3B+Rev+20%3A10%2C14+&version=NIV

The organization represents Jesus’ arrival with a bow and arrow in hand, ready to pierce man, woman and child with a boundless supply of literal arrows; or so it seems. Yet, look into the scriptures for the symbolism of sword, quiver, arrows in Isa 49:2; Ps 127:3-5  https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isa+49%3A2%3B+Ps+127%3A3-5&version=NKJV

 “I suggest a full reading of Zech.9, and a consideration of how it describes the final arrival of Christ. For now, I will quote some of the preceding and following verses...

"14 Then the LORD will appear over them (

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); his arrow will flash like lightning (
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;
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). The Sovereign LORD will sound the trumpet (
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;
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,
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,
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); he will march in the storms of the south (explained later)
16 The LORD their God will save his people on that day as a shepherd saves his flock (
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). They will sparkle in his land like jewels in a crown (
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).
8 But I will encamp at my temple (
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) to guard it against marauding forces (
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,
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,
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,
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,
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). Never again will an oppressor overrun my people (
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,
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) (
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), for now I am keeping watch." (
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)
These things were not fulfilled in the first century.

Did you note, that this is a time for spiritual war (14)?
...a day of salvation and vindication? (16)
...a day of protection and release from oppression, that would last forever? (8)

Pearl Doxsey; From

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  4womaninthewilderness

Scriptures are clear about the identity of the Destroyer. 

“Therefore Jesus said again, “Very truly I tell you, I am the gate for the sheep. All who have come before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep have not listened to them. I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. They will come in and go out, and find pasture. 10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.”   John 10:7-10 

From Watchtower’s leaders:

Rather, this “star” comes as a Freedom-giver, a Liberator of others, for “the key of the pit of the abyss was given him.” He is also a King, for he is “the angel of the abyss” and is the King of those whom he releases from the abyss; in harmony with which fact those whom he releases wear what, to John, “seemed to be crowns like gold.” This symbolic “star” also has a name for this occasion. In Greek its name is Apollyon, which means Destroyer. In Hebrew it is Abaddon, which means Destruction. All these features about this symbolic “star” reveal him to be the glorified Jesus Christ.  Wt 69/12/1

You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.” John 8:44

“How terrible for you, teachers of the Law and Pharisees! You hypocrites! You lock the door to the Kingdom of heaven in people's faces, but you yourselves don't go in, nor do you allow in those who are trying to enter!  Matt 23:13

 

Pearl Doxsey 4womaninthewilderness

“What is Sheol/Hades?”

“Who has the key to the abyss?”

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2 minutes ago, Witness said:

Dear Billy.  I believe your answer is just as confusing as the WT’s.   Here is the info you wanted:  Pages 712-726, paragraph 29 

Glancing briefly at how MUCH followed ... that's where my eyes glazed over and I faded out.

I suppose you had something important to say, but if I am going to read THAT much, it will be a Patrick O'Brian novel.

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25 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Glancing briefly at how MUCH followed ... that's where my eyes glazed over and I faded out.

I suppose you had something important to say, but if I am going to read THAT much, it will be a Patrick O'Brian novel.

It needs scripture links fixed, and the picture I wanted to post, but I can't do it successfully right now with my computer.  I figured you say something about its length.  I can't explain, unless I tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth, which CAN set you free.  Take one paragraph at a time. :) 

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13 hours ago, Judith Sweeney said:

A Buffet of Biblical Banter.  Whew! 

 

I did have a lot to say, out of the desire for JWs to be knowledgeable about Revelation's true identities.

Jesus told his disciples, 

“You did not choose me, but I chose you. I appointed you to go and produce fruit and that your fruit should remain, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he will give you.”  John 15:16

There was a time when I eagerly looked forward to the organization’s new publications, thinking each new release was a nourishing “buffet” to sustain me spiritually.  These photos of Watchtower’s banquet of “fruit” that has now been discarded, proves to me that the organization’s leaders never asked Jesus for help in providing fruit that remains.   They have outdone themselves in Biblical Bantering!

“Be on your guard against false prophets who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravaging wolves.  You'll recognize them by their fruit. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes or figs from thistles?  "In the same way, every good tree produces good fruit, but a bad tree produces bad fruit.”  Matt 7:15-17

Revelation reveals who the ravaging wolves are, that have misled the anointed and companions.  It is not a book that remains cloaked in mysticism, as Rev. 1:1 shows.  Jesus has anointed servants that he has entrusted, to provide fruit that will last. 

Dan 12:7-10;  Rev 11:1-6

discontinued-publications.jpg

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magazines.jpg

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@Witness And yet have some inconsistencies in your last response. The Angel of the Abyss has the key, not Satan and you are comparing "Destroyer" to another angel and an Assyrian King with Abandon.... Also you make claim that those who represent the Locust in terms of WT is wrong, but other Christians shares that same view and there is commentary and a list of other things, for the life-span thing is pretty much a clue. I will point that out another time.

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20 hours ago, Judith Sweeney said:

A Buffet of Biblical Banter.  Whew! 

Indeed it is, and several errors can be found, like his confusion to Firstborn of Creation Jesus to the Firstborn of Egyptians in the days of Moses, as with a list of other things.

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On 10/21/2018 at 9:57 AM, Witness said:

These “Gentiles” are the elders, who ‘seem to wear crowns of goldÂ’, replacing ChristÂ’s priesthood/Temple with themselves, as the WT picture below suggests. Rev 9:7  (WT 17 March pg 3-8, “Give Honor to Whom It is Due”)    Are ChristÂ’s anointed priests mentioned in this article?  Not at all, but the elders are highlighted as worthy of receiving honor, even robbing GodÂ’s priesthood and all JWs of what the true meaning behind the picture is to represent.  With subtle indications, the picture and article point to the Man of Lawlessness as present or ”sitting” in the Temple of God.  2 Thess 2:3,4.  The elder body is a “disgusting” counterfeit of the holy Temple priesthood that now has no name, no face, and no position before the Heavenly Father and their High Priest, Jesus Christ, in the organization. Matt 24:15; Ezek 44:6-9; Num 18:7; 1 Cor 3:16,17

I lost my window to fix the broken scripture links.  But, here is the photo that I was referring to.  

 

elders crowns of gold.jpg

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1 hour ago, Witness said:

I lost my window to fix the broken scripture links.  But, here is the photo that I was referring to.  

 

elders crowns of gold.jpg

And yet it deter from what it means to honor those who are like shepherds, those leading the church, which consist of pastors, elders, priests of religious office, and those under them such as stewards. So how did one such as yourself miss literal around 100 or so verses on this notion?

 

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34 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

And yet it deter from what it means to honor those who are like shepherds, those leading the church, which consist of pastors, elders, priests of religious office, and those under them such as stewards. So how did one such as yourself miss literal around 100 or so verses on this notion?

 

The 100 or so verses apply the true identity of "shepherds" to the anointed priesthood, not to spiritually "uncircumcised" "Gentiles".    JWs may have a foggy view these days of who the anointed are, but they are aware they exist in the Watchtower, unless they have been "thrown out of the synagogues". John 16:2   If you were a JW, you would understand anointed and not anointed.  I am sorry.  This is a message for the anointed and companions.  It will be clearer in time.  

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26 minutes ago, Witness said:

The 100 or so verses apply the true identity of "shepherds" to the anointed priesthood, not to spiritually "uncircumcised" "Gentiles".    JWs may have a foggy view these days of who the anointed are, but they are aware they exist in the Watchtower, unless they have been "thrown out of the synagogues". John 16:2   If you were a JW, you would understand anointed and not anointed.  I am sorry.  This is a message for the anointed and companions.  It will be clearer in time.  

You sure about that? The verses in question applies to those who have roles in keeping the church spiritual upright, building them up, as did Paul to the Church of Corinth, as did those who held religious office. I agree with you in regards of the chosen ones, but we shouldn't be leaving those under them out of the equation, otherwise it would defeat the purpose of the verses of which I speak of in terms of honoring religious leaders, which consist of those who take office in the church.

You are also forgetting that Christians are under the New Covenant, Witness, such ones should not be left out too, mainly if you have those who recognize of where they stand when it comes to the early Christians who resided in the church itself so their view is not foggy in this regard, hence out last discussion and what I will soon post here for you to see of your own inconsistencies in your previous post.

If anyone is honest with themselves and is aware of what took place last weekend, they'd realize of who is the real enemy here.

When it comes to studying religions, you can recognize their stance and as to why they view this or that as it is. The one I adhere to, Brother Kel is similar to me or perhaps Mr. Simon Brown, SoG, yet he, and many others, knows the Christology of JWs as is that of anything pertaining to Non-Trinitarianism and or the True Church itself vs. That of mainstream Christendom, as do many, and such ones stand up to such ones like Mr. White and several others.

That being said, if you are speaking of the chosen ones, perhaps make it clear this time, and I suggest you read up on what the Bible says regarding honoring religious leaders, for the majority of them is found in the Greek New Testament, this is but 4 out of the 100+ verses.

  • 1 Timothy 5:17-20 - [17] Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching. [18] For the Scripture says, “You shall not muzzle an ox when it treads out the grain,” and, “The laborer deserves his wages.” [19] Do not admit a charge against an elder except on the evidence of two or three witnesses. [20] As for those who persist in sin, rebuke them in the presence of all, so that the rest may stand in fear.

Servants, also known as slaves/stewards, what have you, were to honor those who are like masters over them, by taking in the teachings and putting it into application, taking up tasks hence their role(s) in the church regarding their position, and so forth, hence 1 Timothy 6:1, 2. Even the Bible speaks of respect and honor to even that of rules and authority. Regardless, people such ones part of God are deserving of honor.

For we already know of who among men, young and old in the church and their roles and what their roles consist of, in Paul's Day, as is with others in his day and onward. We should not being ignoring this.

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1 hour ago, Space Merchant said:

You sure about that? The verses in question applies to those who have roles in keeping the church spiritual upright, building them up, as did Paul to the Church of Corinth, as did those who held religious office. I agree with you in regards of the chosen ones, but we shouldn't be leaving those under them out of the equation, otherwise it would defeat the purpose of the verses of which I speak of in terms of honoring religious leaders, which consist of those who take office in the church.

 

1 hour ago, Space Merchant said:

1 Timothy 5:17-20 - [17] Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching. [18] For the Scripture says, “You shall not muzzle an ox when it treads out the grain,” and, “The laborer deserves his wages.” [19] Do not admit a charge against an elder except on the evidence of two or three witnesses. [20] As for those who persist in sin, rebuke them in the presence of all, so that the rest may stand in fear.

Who are to receive “double honor”?  Isa 61:6,7; (Isa 43:10; 1 Pet 2:5,9)

Who’s job is it to teach the people? Deut 24:8; Mal 2:7

If anyone is to help out the anointed priesthood, should they be given the position of authority to rule and judge the "chosen" as fit or unfit for God’s Kingdom?  Rom 14:4  The anointed priesthood are the “living stones” of God’s Temple.  The WT elder body, who are APPOINTED, not ANOINTED, rule over God’s ANOINTED PRIESTHOOD in the organization.

There is no leeway in the scriptures for this to be condoned.  Men have made this acceptable.  2 Chron 23:6,7; Ezek 44:6-9

“Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?  If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.”  1 Cor 3:16,17

“And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you are the temple of the living God. As God has said: “I will dwell in them And walk among them. I will be their God, And they shall be My people.” 2 Cor 6:16

The “woman” New Covenant, is a promise of life, initially to the “firstfruits”/priesthood/dwelling of God. Lev 23:10; Neh 10:35; James 1:18; Rev 14:4  They must prepare intensely to be an acceptable offering  AS  God’s dwelling, as the Bride of Christ.  Once the Temple is “capped”, it “comes down out of heaven” as a fulfilled “woman” promise, bringing life to rest of God’s children under the Kingdom Covenant.  So, yes, this promise of “seed” through the “woman” is for all who hold faith in Christ, love him, serve him, and recognize those whom he sends (who become part of the Bride) in truth.   Rev 22:17; Heb 1:14; John 7:38; Matt 10:40,41

 

 

 

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On 10/14/2018 at 1:17 PM, Jack Ryan said:

Arrow to the chest by Jesus on a mighty steed?

"For the Son of Man did not come to destroy men’s lives but to save them.”   Luke 9:56

"But I fear that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your minds may be seduced from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ.  For if a person comes and preaches another Jesus, whom we did not preach, or you receive a different spirit, which you had not received, or a different gospel, which you had not accepted, you put up with it splendidly!"  2 Cor 11:3,4

"For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ.  And no wonder! For Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.  So it is no great surprise if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will be according to their works." 2 Cor 11:13-15

 

 

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@Witness Mind you, I simply type as if I am just answering separate responses at once, some things may be brought up a second or a third time.

How is the organizationÂ’s version confusing to a literary Bible student, which explains Jesus as the Destroyer?

 

What do you think a Mighty Warrior, who was man and has become like that of a spirit to return to heaven, exalted by God the Father, who will send his Son to return to the earth, with a sword in hand and God's Army to use at will, with him [The Christ who is King] wielding a Sword will do?

He isn't going to cut a bokay of flowers and cut vines on earth, he, being a Mighty King with an army at his side, will be taking out the wicked, along with the demons at the swing of his sword and the shot of his bow.

Jesus is coming to get rid of the wicked, therefore, destroying them in the process.

Literary Bible Students know this because this belief is indeed a real one, and it further proves that you are not fully aware of what Jesus will do when he returns.

Let this verse sink in, I am pretty sure I showed you this verse before.

  • Matthew 10:34 - "Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword." (check the references)

So you tell us here, what do you think he will do with his sword against the wicked and against demons?

Simply because it contradicts scripture.

Unfortunately, it does not contradict scripture. You already contradicted yourself by assuming the Angel of the Abyss is Satan when the Bible even tells you he is thrown, chained up and hurled into that exact same abyss you believe him to be the King of, which also leads to you believing he somehow got the key to the abyss and or such was given to him - by whom if I made add if we are to focus on the Abyss in Revelations?

The view you and Pearl attest to is misguiding anyways for:

[1] Satan cannot be the Angel of the Abyss because he was hurled into the abyss for the Bible makes it clear:

  • Revelation 20:2 - And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years,

So you are incorrect because here we see someone, The Angel of the Abyss seized the Dragon, the ancient serpent, the verse telling you it is Satan, was bounded up for 1,000 years.

When we move on to verse 3, it reads:

And threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while.

Satan has been hurled into the pit, otherwise known as the Abyss or Bottomless Pit (Great Deep) and he was sealed there, imprisoned so that he cannot trick any one from the nations until the 1,000 years has ended.

Again, makes you incorrect, thus contradicting of who really is the Angel who has the key to the Abyss - clearly not Satan.

[2] The Angel of the Abyss has the Key to the very same place of which the Devil was hurled into and imprisoned, therefore, once again, we see here that Satan isn't the Abaddon here.

[3] You are trying to equal the stars as the same when both stars, in both verses are different.

Any teaching that contradicts scripture has its roots in "confusion", the meaning behind the word, "Babylon".

And yet we see you here teaching something to which akin to 2 Satans, or the fact that he was given a key to where he was hurled and sealed in. You brought forth the confusion.

"Wormwood", a bitter root that poisons waters of truth, plays a central part in RevelationÂ’s Babylon. She is the "great" falling star of Rev 9:1. Rev 8: 10,11

Your biggest error here is assuming the star in Revelation 9:1 and the star in Revelation 8:10, 11 are the same.

The star mentioned in Revelation 9:1 is different from the one in Revelation 8:10, 11, for it is rather obvious to when one can read the verse for themselves and notice this, a big factor here, against you, is the references.

  • Revelation 9:1 - And the fifth angel blew his trumpet, and I saw a star fallen from heaven to earth, and he was given the key to the shaft of the bottomless pit.
  • Revelation 8:10, 11 – [10] The third angel blew his trumpet, and a great star fell from heaven, blazing like a torch, and it fell on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water. [11] The name of the star is Wormwood*. A third of the waters became wormwood, and many people died from the water, because it had been made bitter.

And yes, we know what Wormwood represents, and what it means regarding teachings that is false compared to teachings that is true.

*Revelation 8:11 - Wormwood is the name of a plant and of the bitter-tasting extract derived from it.

  • False: your claim on who the Angel of the Abyss is being Satan.
  • True: The Bible tells you the Angel of the Abyss is not Satan.
  • False: Your claim on who has the key to the Abyss, for you agree to yourself that it is Satan.
  • True: The Bible, in context, tells us the Angel of the Abyss has the key, Satan on the other hand is the one hurled into the Abyss, he was never given a key, let alone having one.

So the Trinitarian belief of yours is in is somewhat in error when one can read into the verses themselves and go beyond surfaced information. Also this is minor but your view of who the Angel of the Abyss is, is no different from that of Andrew Robert Fausset, David Brown and Henry H. Halley, who identify the angel as Satan (disregarding the key and who was hurled), moreover, they’re all Trinitarians, granted the Trinity of the Godhead doctrine is of bitterness – wormwood.

"Do not become idolaters as were some of them. As it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play." 8 Nor let us commit sexual immorality, as some of them did, and in one day twenty-three thousand fell; 9 nor let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed by serpents; 10 nor complain, as some of them also complained, and were destroyed by the destroyer." 1 Cor 10:7-10

It isnÂ’t confusing. 1 Corinthians 10:7-10 is referring to the Israel who put God to the test, for even Jesus himself said we should not put God to the test, even Paul and even in the Old Testament/Torah (Deut. 6:16, Matthew 4:7, Luke 4:12).

The vast majority of Christians never succumb to sexual immorality, but some do apparently because they lose the battle against ill desires of the flesh - as with other things such as deceit, trickery and the like. Therefore, we need to be very careful that we do not allow ourselves to pursue a course that leads to a pattern of murmuring that could result in divine disapproval. The Israelites murmured against Moses and Aaron and against God, for they were complaining about the manna as seen in Numbers 16:41; 21:5. The Bible, Old Testament/Torah, shows that many murmurers ended up being killed by snakes, Numbers 21:6, and early on, early, more than other murmurers who rebelled were destroyed. (Numbers 16:49) Therefore, it is unwise to try GodÂ’s patience, putting him to the test.

The very reason murmuring is to be taken seriously and the taking into account of Apostle Paul’s words to those at the Church of Corinth. Granted to what he had said, especially verse 10 whereas he said murmurers, just as some of them [referring to the Israelites] murmured, only to perish by the destroyer – otherwise known as "destroying angel" or "angel of death" in some translations, hence why it can be said here that the "Destroyer" in this passage is not Jesus, nor is it Satan, but, it is God’s messenger sent to destroy (by means of an Angel).

"Woe to you, destroyer, you who have not been destroyed! Woe to you, betrayer, you who have not been betrayed! When you stop destroying, you will be destroyed; when you stop betraying, you will be betrayed." Isa 33:1

Isaiah 33:1 [part A] points to 2 Kings 18:13 and Isaiah 10:15 while [part B] points to Isaiah 10:12 and Nahum 3:7.

Isaiah 33:1-14 is titled in outline Distress and Help (all the way through to verse 24). as The proud and false destroyer justly reckoned with for all his fraud, violence and bloodshed, but we have our righteous God deals with such ones who do such things. Those who by faith humbly wait for God, shall find him or herself gracious to them; as the day, so let the strength be.

Prophet Isaiah addressed who the "Destroyer" in this passage/verse. For he speaks here about Assyria. At the peak of its power, this aggressive nation appears to be undefeated, for they are very violent and commit acts of bloodshed has already been addressed, hence they are the Destroyer that destroys, in this sense, for we know what Assyria is capable of, mainly in those days. This nation was the one responsible for ravaging the cities of Judah, even stripping the house of God of everything, down to wealth and resources, by doing so with a total disregard at heart, hence what is read in 2 Kings 18:14-16 and 2 Chronicles 28:21, we can throw in Isaiah 10:5 for fun here too - "Like Nimrod a mighty hunter before the Lord [Yahweh/Jehovah]." (Genesis 10:9). However, they were not the "Destroyer" for long, for that same passage of which you quoted tells you they will be destroyed – a fulfilling of prophecy is to those faithful, as declared by Prophet Isaiah.

Are there two Destroyers, Satan and Jesus?

1 Corinthians 10:7-10, this passage is about Apostle Paul’s focus on those of Israel who succumb to murmuring and putting God to the test, and the "Destroyer" here is regarding God’s messenger sent to destroy – that is, if you take into account the context of the references.

Isaiah 33:1 or chapter 33 in general is regarding the "Destroyer" (The Assyrian/Assyria). Who in turn is eventually destroyed by another, an Angel (Angel of Death also known as a Destroyer).

Are WTÂ’s spiritual leaders so illiterate that they cannot see WHO the Destroyer really is?

Technically they are aware of who is a Destroyer, especially in the verses above granted by what they in their information, which is on par with the view of the teachings in this sense, regarding the Destroyer.

Jesus came to save, not destroy. DonÂ’t you think it is quite contradictory to believe Jesus...

What do you think he is going to do with the demons and the wicked? After all when he had risen his words to the spirits in prison was indeed one that sticks (1 Peter 3:19–20, 2 Peter 2:4, Jude 6).

And it should be known to you by now that Jesus does the Will of his Father, who is God. So if God says he is going to destroy the wicked and those of lawlessness, Jesus will enact the Will of his Father in this regard, for he didn't come the first time to do his own Will, but the Will of the one who sent him (John 5:30, 35, 36, 14:10).

So if God sends Jesus to destroy the wicked, Jesus will do just that because he is God's representative, the one of whom God made Lord and Christ, the one of whom God made superior to the angels, the one of whom God made chief of his angelic army.

Yes he will save, but surely he will be dealing with the wicked too for he will come to cause a division, and not only we are saved by means of salvation, but we are saved so that the wicked will no longer bother us for we can seek them out, but they will not be here.

  • Psalms 37:10 - In just a little while, the wicked will be no more; though you look carefully at his place, he will not be there.

You may want to check out also Job 24:24, 1 Samuel 25:39 and Psalms 54:4, 5.

(yes, Jesus and not an organization) is salvation, which is the giver of LIFE,

Perhaps you may want to read Matthew 16 again, clearly this time. The church of which the Christ had built 2,000 years ago is still in effect - the apostolic church to which early Christians adhere to its teachings, the same church of which Jesus issued several commands for those to teach and spread the gospel when he is away.

The very reason it can be said that Jesus is the Head of the Church, if you missed that part along with the Spiritual House and the like, I suggest you study more.

Granted, the commands and the early church was indeed organized, especially in terms of how things went down prior to, during and after Pentecost.

and yet also a DESTROYER OF LIFE? John 14:6; 20:30,31 He conquers with the "breath of his mouth" and with "the brightness of his coming", at the time of the end. 2 Thess 2:8

The question is posed again - What do you think someone who is going to carry out God's Will, one who is made Lord and Christ and has a fleet of angels at his call will do?

For starters, we have a man who enjoys killing men, women and children, should God's Day come upon him and the Christ returns, what do you think this one, who has been separate from the wheat, fair when the Christ has him in view? Again, we can point to and see that Jesus does not know any man who practices lawlessness and therefore God's Justice will be executed in this sense, especially to the serial killer in this example. The same will happen to the deceiver himself.

Using John 14:6; 20:30, 31 is good, but it does not help you here.

Also I like how you used 2 Thessalonians 2:8, using this verse you pretty much shot yourself in the foot with this one - this is why you do not mix verses with your claims, it can be used against you in a refutation.

The verse reads:

And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing [destroy] by the appearance of his coming.

And guess where this one points to (1 Timothy 6:13-15, 2 Timothy 4:1)

He is the Word, which is Truth. John 1:1; 17:17 His Spirit (breath) is imparted into the hearts of faithful "stars" to expose such lies as the quote from the Watchtower above. Gen 15:5; 26:4; Dan 12:3; Gal 3:29; Matt 24:3; 7:7; 5:19; 2 Cor 10:4-6; Eph 6:12-14; John 15:26; Matt 13:41,42; Rev 11:1-5

Unfortunately for you, theyÂ’re not lairs in this sense, you may want to look into commentary regarding such in suggested research, which you must do best your new attack only sends you back like that of Sennacherib who fled because he now knew how powerful God is, and you may find something said by one your favorite commenter, perhaps Barnes, in your research and study.

Now going back with the verses before you tried to mix up, Sennacherib, who is an Assyrian, for Assyria (the Destroyer mentioned in Isaiah 33:1) threatened to destroy Jerusalem, which at the time its ruler being Hezekiah, the son of Ahaz. God responded by sending an Angel, and this Angel, who was sent, took out, or as some would say, steamrolled 185,000 Assyrian Soldiers as they prepared to enter the city (2 Kings 18-19, Isaiah 37:33-38). For we do not see Satan or Jesus, but an Angel, and before that we know of Assyria, who was a Destroyer themselves, thus the God of Hezekiah, going with Prophet Isaiah, destroyed the destroyer, which is, Assyria.

When you have ceased to destroy, you will be destroyed;

This is why, Witness, you shouldn't be mixing verses because it will not help you in the long run. Did you not learn the last several times you were found out to be doing this, let alone ignorance to context?

According to your response, let's take a look at the verses themselves:

NOTE: Keep this in mind. In the Bible, it speaks of spirit beings are, at times, referred to as stars (Job 38:7, Isaiah 14:13). Jesus is also referred to as a star, to be more specific, the bright morning star (Numbers 24:17, Revelations 2:28, 22:16).

Now,

  • Genesis 15:5 nothing regarding faithful "stars" simply God making known literal stars in the sky, the same stars we see at night when we look up. Now in 26:4, the stars are many, referring to offspring [those who are born] that will multiple just as the stars in the sky.
  • Daniel 12:3 is regarding those with spiritual insight and or wisdom. The chosen ones, the remnant, would be bringing the many to righteousness "like stars".
  • Galatians 3:29 speaks of the heirs of the New Covenant, those who are in union with Christ as well as being part of Spiritual Israel and the Spiritual House should we count references.
  • Matthew 24:3 is regarding the coming of the signs of things that signify when the end times will conclude, hence "The End of This Age".
  • Matthew 7:7 seek and you shall find, knock and it will be openedÂ… Stars? Where?
  • The rest does not even line up with what you said either, so you are once again exposed for mixing verses and not taking in the context of the verses in question. So to whom are is the lair here in this sense?

Here is all your verses, I suggest you check the references and context for all of them.

    Hello guest!

Acts of the Destroyer:

"When the Lord goes through the land to strike down the Egyptians, he will see the blood on the top and sides of the doorframe and will pass over that doorway, and he will not permit the destroyer to enter your houses and strike you down." Exod 12:23

Again, God sent an Angel to do this, the "Destroyer" here was indeed an Angel or as mentioned before "The Angel of Death" called by some or other translations. This same verse is a quotation found in Hebrews 11:28 which reads:

By faith he kept the Passover and sprinkled the blood, so that the Destroyer of the firstborn might not touch them.

So we can identify the “Destroyer” here to be an Angel, sent by God during the days of Moses and Aaron and their ordeal with Egypt’s Pharaoh.

"By faith he left Egypt, not fearing the kingÂ’s anger; he persevered because he saw him who is invisible. 28 By faith he kept the Passover and the application of blood, so that the destroyer of the firstborn would not touch the firstborn of Israel." Heb 11:27,28

Hebrews 11:28 is a quotation of Exodus 12:23, for, again, the Destroyer here is an Angel. The entirety of Hebrews 11 by title is “Faith in Action” in outlined form

  • Definition of faith (1, 2)
  • Faith by means of example (3-40)
  • Impossibility of pleasing God without faith (6)

Who desired to destroy Jesus Christ, the firstborn "among many brethren", by using a pawn to do so"? Matt 2:7,8,12; Luke 22:2-4 (Rom 8:29)

You are mixing verses again.

It would be understandable if Jesus was born in the days of Moses, but that is not the case here, and it would not make sense for God to send an Angel to destroy [if we imagine Jesus was born here] to destroy his own Son via unmarked doorposts, for even if the doorposts had lambÂ’s blood, it would not make a difference for Jesus was not born as a man/flesh at that time.

Therefore, this mixing of verses, even now, expresses your confusion and twisting of scripture.

"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation." Col 1:15

Indeed he is, Jesus is also The Firstborn out of the Dead, the First of the Firstfruits.

Ok, so how does that line up with God sending an Angel, the Destroyer, to slay the firstborns of the Egyptians while passing through a small area avoiding homes with the blood of lamps on the doorpost?

Any honest Christian who reads the Bible rather than copy/paste from a woman who is blind herself, can see in the Bible God sending an Angel, the Destroyer, in the days of Moses had slain the firstborns of the Egyptians while passing through a small area avoiding homes with the blood of lamps on the doorpost - for we can read this clearly.

And yes, Jesus is the Firstborn of all creation, however Jesus was not born as a man or came into flesh around the days of Moses, or rather, where this event took place.

Who would love to destroy the remaining "firstborn" of all of GodÂ’s children at the time of the end? Jesus or Satan? Num 3:12,13; 1 Pet 2:9; Gal 4:26; Rev 12:1-4 - notice, "stars"

You are mixing verses again. Also Numbers 3:12, 13 is regarding the Destroyer, an Angel, sent by God in the days of Moses. The fact that you mention this verse without reading it further proves my point.

The only verse that mentions "stars" is Revelation 12:1-4 - only 2 times, the second time it is used, in verse 4, is a cross-reference to Job 38:7, which points back to Revelation 22:16.

That being said, if you had read the Old Testament, clearly an angel was passing through destroying firstborns, especially when there were doorposts that didn't have the blood of lambs on them.

And now we are back to square 1 before you started to thrown in things to confuse people, you know such things would not be allowed to pass when there is a CSE member here.

Incredibly, WT states that the locusts emerging from the abyss are the anointed ones bringing their tormenting message to the world, via the preaching work.

Now I see you are back on track with the Angel of the Abyss, granted to the odd display of spiritual weakness earlier to which you have been corrected on.

What they profess is actually true, like I said before, it is not solely the Jehovah's Witnesses who believe this, for there are others. Plus it wouldn't make sense for the Locust in this symbolic sense to refer to those on Satan's side, granted Satan isn't the one with the key and he is the one who has been hurled and chained in that same abyss that also represents sin and death in some cases.

The Locust represents swarm of those in Christendom who profess what is true, those in inactivity, they are to target those who do not have the seal of God on them, their foreheads, for those in Christendom who claim to be sealed but their own claims defeat them in regards to deceit. The tormenting, in terms of message is against religious leaders of Christendom, most common, mainstream Christianity that professes a doctrine that is bitter - like wormwood. They are tormented by means of means of hearing what is actually true, thus putting a light on to their failings and being exposed for teachings things that is accursed, especially those who claim an accursed teachings to be true i.e. Orderly Worship of the Church to be broken by those of today's age when Paul made it clear of God's Order by means of Creation.

They're unable to and or not allowed to kill them, but rather, only to torture them for 5 months (clearly not in a literal sense, but when it comes to truths and untruths being spoken), the agony such ones will suffer from in terms of teach to lies, for the truth being made manifest in the face of lies and lairs -for what is true of what the Bible says stings like scorpion when it strikes - you know when you feel it when, for instance, prove that Jesus isn't God, but God's Son.

What a concoction of lies, thoroughly cloaking the armyÂ’s true mission of bringing to ruin GodÂ’s owned anointed "land". Joel 1:6,7,17,20, 25-27

You got it all wrong, it is the other way around, and you have to understand what is spoken of in Joel when trying to look into Revelations - granted it is obvious you are not that strong in what Revelations is conveying in this regard, perhaps other things, but clearly not this one.

It is also good to mention that when the Locust is being spoken of, some, if not most commentators go about in detail regarding Joel's mention of the Locust, how they function, the literal ones, especially the life-span of Locust is spoken of.

WHO need to be SEALED in order to reign in heaven with Christ?

Those who accept Christ as their King and Saviour, while to those who refuse to have Him rule over them (Luke 19:14), He is in this sense the Destroyer if it is the other way around for those who do not accept him - for he will not recognize them.

Hence, accordingly, the judgments, fall (revealed by the trumpets) upon those who reject the teachings found in the Bible, and who as a result do not have the seal. For this being factual points to the strong warning the Bible conveys regarding bringing of things - For you are for Life or you are for Death, as I told our "undeath believing" friend - there is no middle ground for the Bible makes it clear.

It is also good to mention that Revelation 7:2, 3 seeing the role some Angels have regarding those who have the seal on their foreheads, which brings forth another question to you:

If you believe the Locust to be on SatanÂ’s side, would it not be logical for these Locusts to attack those with who are sealed rather than those who are not sealed?

Do you realize you are saying that Jesus will return as a falling star, releasing an army to come against his own unsealed priesthood? I hope JWs can see that this is absurd.

Like I said, you have it the other way around and you're not paying attention to the context.

For starters, the context implies that the Locust that is to be released represents those who will, like a swarm be committed to the message that clearly irritates and torments those who, are not sealed, who teach accursed things. And you continue to make it seem as though it is a JW only thing when it is not, therefore the spark of hypocrisy expressed by you can easily be seen or that of the one who teaches you, as well as a clear disdain for a teaching that possibly predates them.

As for the fallen star, this one was given (verb) a key. This one angel by the majority considers it to be Jesus, granted he is the one who will crush the head of the serpent, hence why he in this sense is identified as Apollyon (Abaddon), for later on in Revelation 20 this same star was the one to have hurled the great dragon into the abyss.

The one who opens the abyss, releases an oppressive army that effectively holds down GodÂ’s "saints" with their dictating fist!

That being said you, who believe Satan to be the Angel of the Abyss are caught in your own lie, for you were not able to prove that he is the Angel of the Abyss nor prove the fact your so called Angel was "given" a key (verb) as well as "having" it. So I say to you - that is absurd, to believe that an enemy of God is given his own key to his own imprisonment for 1,000 years of the reign of someone else.

Remember, Satan was the one who was chained, hurled into the abyss and was sealed up there. Do not forget what your own Bible tells you.

Common sense should tell all JWs that anyone who "torments" or "tortures" another, is not practicing righteousness. Rev 9:5,6; John 13:34,35g

A clear example in someone, such as yourself who do not take the time to read the Strong's - granted torment/torture can point to several things. Take a good look at Strong's 921 and 928 because like before, you lack here.

And what does John 13:34, 35 have to do with the sealing of a Scarlet Dragon for 1,000 years and the sealed and not sealed? Do not connect verses that never connected to begin with... Of which you are found out to do.... again.

When the locust-scorpions are in full attack mode against his priesthood, Jesus returns to his Temple to measure each Temple "living stone" according to GodÂ’s decrees. WormwoodÂ’s stinging army reigns over them; "Gentiles", torturing and trampling the Temple/anointed ones as the Man of Lawlessness. Rev 11:1-3; Dan 11:31,36; Acts 20:29,30; Matt 24:15; Luke 21:24; 2 Thess 2:3,4 (1 Cor 3:16,17; 2 Cor 6:16 ; Eph 2:20-22)

How are you so sure regarding the Locust when you earlier spoke of the Angel of the Abyss to be Satan the Devil when the Angel of the Abyss (who was given a key to the Abyss) was the one who had a hand in the Devil's captivity?

These "Gentiles" are the elders, who ‘seem to wear crowns of gold’, replacing Christ’s priesthood/Temple with themselves, as the WT picture below suggests. Rev 9:7 (WT 17 March pg 3-8, "Give Honor to Whom It is Due")

No. No one replaced Jesus' Priesthood. Honor regarding religious leaders, priests, stewards and the like in the Church Congregation is spoken of, nearly 100 verses with cross-references hat pertain to this simple notion, which spans even more verses perhaps over 200+. Practically most Biblical sources even points to this also. Plus it even tells you of whom should be honored and the fact we are to honor God and his Christ.

    Hello guest!

Also Revelation 9:7 is symbolic and it points to Joel 2:4, 5.

Are ChristÂ’s anointed priests mentioned in this article?

I checked the article you are referring to, it refers to showing honor to those who hold religious office, even the chosen ones, is vital. You honor the Church, you honor the Christ, in turn you Honor God.

In terms of those in priesthood, by means of honoring God and his Christ, you also honor the chosen ones. This also goes hand in hand with the context of by means power God is with them and or with Christ, a term Trinitarians try time and time again to refute to justify the Trinity, only to fail, for instance Acts 1:8 (also check out Acts 4:33).

Not at all, but the elders are highlighted as worthy of receiving honor, even robbing GodÂ’s priesthood and all JWs of what the true meaning behind the picture is to represent.

And yet 100+ verses says otherwise as well as the context in terms of what it means to honor God and his Christ, in addition to how God is with his people by means of what power is spoken of.

With subtle indications, the picture and article point to the Man of Lawlessness as present or "sitting" in the Temple of God. 2 Thess 2:3,4.

And yet in other discussion you show yourself to be accepting of lawlessness by denying God's Order and among other things, even to the point of accepting deceit to target those of whom you have a clear disdain for. That is pretty much in line, the same as to how the Jews plot to kill Jesus and actually got the chance to do so.

The elder body is a "disgusting" counterfeit of the holy Temple priesthood that now has no name, no face, and no position before the Heavenly Father and their High Priest, Jesus Christ, in the organization.

And upon this rock the Church has been built. And Jesus entrusted a command to his disciples, etc. Jesus is the head of the church, the good news gospel and the Messianic Age has been preached and the people made disciples and baptized them in His name, etc.

The apostolic church was organized even in its early stages, after all, the Didache makes it clear as to how organized they were centuries ago.

That being said, we should be 100% neutral with anyone who is striving to be like the church in this sense and has members among them who are spoken of as among the chosen ones, so we may be very very, VERY careful to not allow ourselves a spot in the white throne, for when judgment has concluded - being here will not be a happy ending for most.

Wormwood "poisons" waters of living truth. Rev 8:11 "She" once held her "heavenly" position in Christ, yet has fallen for the offers of Satan, becoming his pawns to come against the remaining ones of the womanÂ’s seed. Luke 4:7; Rev 8:10,11; Jer 23:15; Amos 5:7; 1 Cor 10:12; 2 Pet 3:17; Rev 12:17

By means of false prophets, yes, and by false prophets but those who follow them, just like the clear statement you have made thus far, which isn't true regarding who has the key.

How are you so sure when you tried to identify both stars as the same when the verse and references show you theyÂ’re different? By definition, if you do this you can be identified as a false prophet if you are mixing these things up.

  • Revelation 13:11 is regarding the second beast that rises out of the earth. This land beast has 2 horns like a lamb and it speaks like a dragon. It claims to be a Christian but it is not. It collects and colonizes nations and exploits and it is present along with the first beast.
  • 2 Pet 3:17 is regarding not being carried away by those who are of lawlessness, in as which to be careful so we do not lose our way.
  • Amos 5:7 Wormwood in terms of representing injustice and unrighteousness, which also connects with Amos 6:12, furthermore, it is used to reference apostates and or apostasy in Deuteronomy 29:18.

If Wormwood is able to poison truth with her lies, bringing many in touch with death, she does so as a false prophet. John 7:38; Matt 24:5 She is the Beast from the Earth, appearing to come in the name of Christ, but has indeed fallen from her "heavenly" position. Rev 13:11; 2 Pet 3:17; Amos 5:7

Also John 7:38 is regarding Jesus, Jesus isn’t a “She” nor is he a “Beast”, moreover, Matthew 24:5 speaks of False Prophets, not the Wild Beast.

Also notice that ho Khristos is in use, simply, the Christ which is equal to the Messiah (from Hebrew Mashiach), both meaning Chosen One or Anointed One. In the 1st century C.E., there has been some who claimed to be prophets, who dwell in political affairs, and such ones came forth, promising relief from oppression and a list of other things.

These composite false prophets have independently severed themselves from God and Christ to serve their new Master, Satan. "She" appears to be "great" (Matt 5:19), as she exalts herself over her "fellow slaves". Rev 8:10 Matt 24:48-51 She blazes like a torch or lamp, falling on the "earth", on the anointed House of God, which is the owned habitation of God. As I once did, and millions also, the anointed and companions have been drawn to your leadersÂ’ light, without realizing the sinister plan that lies behind itÂ’s false brilliance.

If I may add, since you now bring wormwood into this discussion, you aware of what are the major things that consist in such? I already gave 3 examples regarding mainstream Christendom vs. the true apostolic church itself.

This verse does not say falling on to the earthÂ… It simply says fell out of heaven.

That being, it isn’t a sinister plan. A sinister plan is believing Satan having been given a key to his own prison to torment and not kill anyone who are not sealed – which in turn, your view does not make any sense, that somehow Satan has no need to attack those having the seal of God, but rather, those who do not. Remember, Satan himself has a strong hatred for God's people.

WormwoodÂ’s locust army is a military strategy hatched under both Satan and WormwoodÂ’s direction; growing to ultimately restrain and torment the dwelling of God, as the the Beast from the Sea. Joel 2:1-5; 2 Thess 2:7; Rev 9:5,10; 13:1,5-7

Which is incorrect because The Locust Army are not of the one hurled into the Abyss - Satan does not have the key to the Abyss, and the fact you are assuming both stars are the same.

Which brings forth the next question, if the Locust was indeed on Satan's side, why are they not attacking those who have been sealed, but rather, those who are not sealed?

Think really hard about this one.

Do you know that the "sea" is another symbol for SatanÂ’s realm, including those in it; and is termed, the abyss in Rev 11:7?

And? The Abyss isn't called Satan's realm, the Abyss is a place of which Satan has been held.

The Abyss also means very or exceedingly deep, and sometimes it is used with reference to the sea because of the sea’s great, and is very deep as can be seen in Romans 10:6, 7, see Deuteronomy 30:12, 13.

Isa 57:20,21; Isa 27:1 After tormenting the saints, the Beast from the Sea/abyss is authorized to "kill" (disfellowship) ChristÂ’s priests for joining with Christ in truth, fully rejecting WormwoodÂ’s waters. Yet, this army no longer has the power to "restrain" them, as they expose its true identity as the Man of Lawlessness. Rev 13:7; 11:3,7; 1 Pet 5:8; Isa 51:10; Rev 16:12; 11:11,12; 12:10,11

IÂ’d rather not you throw an entrusted command to justify your view.

The verses in Isaiah speaks nothing of tormenting the saints.

This is where you contradict yourself again. The verse in question even tells you such ones cannot be or cannot be killed, therefore tormenting, outside of symbolism, true teachings vs. false teachings, for those who profess what is false do not have the seal.

Notice who gives this Beast power:

“The dragon gave him his power, his throne, and great authority.” Rev 13:2b

 Rev 9:3 – “Then out of the smoke locusts came upon the earth. And to them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.” 

The Dragon didn't give the Locust Power. The cross-reference to this verse, [part B], points to Revelation 12:9 which reads:

And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

He gave his power to the wild beast – not the locust.

We know this because the Bible teaches that the enemy of God, Satan, has authority and control over the very world he is the ruler of regarding things in today's society, even politics (Luke 4:5, 6).

Another example of you twisting scripture when not even a shred of a reference equal both verses at all. That is shameful.

Since the Beast from the Sea/abyss is under the direction of the Beast/false prophet, then who gives the fallen star, Wormwood, a “key” or the authority to direct the Wild Beast, in Satan’s deceitful ploy?  The King of the abyss, Abaddon (“Destruction”) in Hebrew, but in Greek he has the name Apollyon – Destroyer.  He is Revelation’s dragon.    Rev 9:1,2,11; 13:11,12,14-17

Incorrect.

No one, even Satan himself was given a key nor had the key to the abyss themselves. The only one who has the key was the Angel of the Abyss.

The Christ is the one who secures SatanÂ’s captivity, ushering in the 1,000 year reign, for it can be fitting for anyone to see who he represents and who he is; symbolized by the angel having the key of the abyss and by the star to whom the key was given.

And as the giving (verb; Revelation 9:1) of a thing to any certain one must precede the having Revelation 1:18, 20:1.  Obviously it can be spoken of as the Christ receiving the key at the sounding of the 5th trumpet prior to or sometime during the 1,000 year reign. He already has it at prior to the commencement of the millennium.

GodÂ’s chosen one is here to bring forth deliverance from the prison house of sin and of death (the abyss), and to do so through the proclamation of the gospel, the key, therefore, must be figurative of the gospel, the only power that is able to set free those who are imprisoned in the abyss, which is where the Locust comes in, released from captivity and go about like that of a swarm. Also IÂ’d like to add that the abyss is spoken of as a place of inactivity, which can be compared to verses such as Romans 10:7, Revelation 17:8, 20:1, 3.

The abyss in Revelation 20:3 is symbolical for it represents the earth as a prison house, then the abyss of Revelation 9:1, being identical, must likewise be symbolical of the earth as a prison house at another time. This implicitly Biblical interpretation of the star, the key, and the abyss reveals that the earth, becomes like that of a prison house (a pit) for GodÂ’s people and that Christ came to open it in order to deliver them, save them.

The organization’s lie that Abaddon is “the glorified Jesus Christ” is pure mockery and DECEIT.

They haven’t lied, for even outside of the Watchtower people hold on to the belief that Jesus is that Angel of the Abyss. He has the key, he comes to bring forth deliverance and those against his God will get a full taste of God’s Justice. The army of Locust go after those who are not sealed in terms of pressing the truth against falsehood, unleashed from their captivity and so forth.

So it isnÂ’t a pure mockery nor is it deceit.

What is deceit is believing that some Satan has a key to his own prison to free Locust to go after those who are not sealed. According to your view, wouldnÂ’t be make sense for Satan to go after GodÂ’s people, instead?

Does God feel this way about His Son?  John 8:54; Luke 9:28,29; 2 Pet 1:17; Rev 1:12-16 

I hope you realize that in John 8:54 God was not speaking, it was Jesus...

And? Also how does Transfiguration fit into the other verses listed?

Also the first one, John 8:54 is Jesus speaking about his Father to the bad influenced Jews – for Jesus isn’t God, he is God’s Son, therefore that would be Jesus’ feeling for his Father when put to task against the Jews. 

The abyss, Sheol, Hades, all represent the consignment to darkness and death, and is associated with Abaddon.

It represents sin and death, total inactivity (a form of stasis) and utter darkness, the only time Abaddon is used is regarding SatanÂ’s imprisonment, another time regarding the firstborns in Egypt, Assyria to Hezekiah, GodÂ’s Justice to wickedness, etc.

As a JW, I believed that the abyss was a location that couldn’t be seen by the physical eye, but was somewhere on the spiritual side of the universe.  However, it is symbolism for the unending darkness, the bottomless pit of deep deceptions that Satan uses to blinds the spiritual senses, which can lead to death. 

Spiritual Side of the Universe? Also, it is not unknown to anyone that there are things we cannot see ourselves, anything in connection to spirit beings we cannot see, but they can see us. I am pretty sure our JehovahÂ’s Witness counterparts are aware of that for it is not uncommon for them to speak on such things.

It is the realm of “not perceiving”. 

Sheol/Hades:  from the combination of two root words –

Alpha – “when prefixed to words as an inseparable syllable” it means “giving a negative sense to the word to which it is prefixed”

Eid? – “to perceive with the eyes, to perceive by any of the senses, notice, discern, discover”

Ok. And what does this have to do with the Angel of the Abyss who has the key?

When Jesus bound Satan and threw him into the abyss in the first century for the symbolic “thousand years, he was prevented from perceiving how to fabricate his end time delusion, which “shatters” the power of the holy ones. This didn’t hinder his ability to cause havoc in other ways around the world.  His demand to “sift” each one in Christ as “wheat” was still enforced, before enacting his ultimate devastating strategy against the unsealed “remaining ones”. He has accomplished this with the help of the fallen star and her army of locust-scorpions.    Luke 10:17-20; Mark 3:27; Rev 20:2,3; Luke 22:31; Eph 2:1-3; Rev 20:4; Dan 7:7,23; 12:7; Rev 12:17

But you just said earlier that you agree that Satan is the Angel of the AbyssÂ… So why shift and call others lairs when you said something entirely different only to fall on your own sword at the end?

I see now you accept what is true, Jesus was the one who dealt with Satan by hurling him into the abyss, that same abyss that he has been given the key to, the same abyss as to where the Locust comes out in droves while Satan himself is sealed shut there – imprisoned.

He has accomplished this with the help of the fallen star and her army of locust-scorpions.    Luke 10:17-20; Mark 3:27; Rev 20:2,3; Luke 22:31; Eph 2:1-3; Rev 20:4; Dan 7:7,23; 12:7; Rev 12:17

The star who had fallen to the earth isn’t the same star who fell out of heaven – stop confusing the two.

And no, Satan didnÂ’t get help from the fallen star, especially when the fallen star in question points back to the bright morning star in Revelation 22, therefore, the Christ didnÂ’t, no, he would never help Satan the Devil with anything, especially when we know Satan and his demons battled with Jesus and the angels in Heaven prior to the Christ being made a King.

Luke 10:17-20 Jesus prophetically spoke about seeing the cast out of Satan from heaven which has yet to occur during his time. Revelation 12:7-9 describes the battle that took place in heaven and associates Satan the Devil’s fall with the birth of the Messianic Kingdom. Jesus was conveying that the evident defeat of Satan and his demons in that future battle and that God had just empowered 70 disciples, imperfect men to have the ability to expel demons (Luke 10:17). The demons are in connection with Satan, not of the Christ, and such ones had since lost their connection in heaven, not being in the presence of God for they were cut-off. Other than that, when Jesus was a man on earth, they knew who the Christ was already. Therefore, nothing here points to a Locust Army – granted we know demons will influence people and go after God’s people.

 Mark 3:27 may I ask, what is the point of mentioning this verse when it is practically unrelated to what you have just said which is already incorrect?

  • Rev 20:2, 3, 4 But you do not believe that Jesus was the one who hurled Satan into the Abyss, for you yourself have stated that Satan is the Angel of the AbyssÂ…. A bit hypocritical, donÂ’t you think?
  • Luke 22:31 Your point in bringing this verse up? With what you are conveying you are shifting us, just as Satan was trying to shift Simon.
  • Eph. 2:1-3 Your point in bringing up this verse?
  • Dan. 7:7,23 These verses speak of the 4th wild beastÂ… You were not specifying which wild beast of the land you are talking about, but judging by your constant mixing of verses, it can be seen you are attempting to speak about the first and second beast, only now you mention the fourth one, which has nothing to do with the response of yours. And the use of 12:7 is rather pointless, on your part.
  • Rev. 12:17 Why bring this one up? You stated yourself you believe Satan to be the Angel of the Abyss who somehow has the key.

In the real world, a jailer wouldn’t give a serial killer a key to his own cell – see how absurd that sounds?

Without Christ, we remain in darkness, not spiritually cognizant of his light of Truth. John 1:5; 1 John 2:11; Eph 4:17,18  When Eve sinned, Satan gained authority (a key) over the “whole world” and mankind came under the result of condemning sin – death.  At Jesus’ coming, he said, “I am the light of the world” – a world that exists in spiritual darkness. 1 Cor 2:12;  Phil 2:15  Christ conquered death’s grip upon mankind, but we must come tohis light to be saved; otherwise the darkness of the abyss remains with us.  Phil 2:14,15  He received “authority” to release us from this spiritual darkness, and we are rescued from the captivity of “not perceiving” the true light of Christ, if our hearts desire to turn to Christ.  

But you are twisting the truth in this sense, so how you are on ChristÂ’s side when you profess that Satan has the key when he does not? The Bible even tells you that Satan is hurled into the abyss, he was never given a key or spoken of as having it prior to the 1,000 year reign. Even if he had, he be gunning for GodÂ’s people, which is not the case because he isnÂ’t the Angel of the Abyss who has the key.

Satan gained authority (a key)

Seriously? No reference whatsoever speaks of the key being authorityÂ…..

When did God give him the time and day, if I may ask?

In Revelation, all the named titles of wickedness to come against GodÂ’s anointed under the New Covenant, are enhanced characteristics of the same two entities.

Wormwood, and its locust-scorpion army torment the anointed who have not been sealed.

The Beast from the Earth gives authority to the Wild Beast from the Sea to blaspheme God’s Temple saints and war with them.   

The Wild Beast from the Sea is the Man of Lawlessness that “tramples”/”torments” God’s Temple priests/saints, and is the locust-army released from the pit of deception.

The Beast from the Earth, as Wormwood, is a composite false prophet appearing as if from Christ,  butpoisons the living waters of Truth with lies from Satan’s mouth.

Once again you are getting the stars confused, and the Locust Swarm would not and are never spoken of as going for the chosen ones. Further prove of this is the fact that Satan isnÂ’t the Angel of the Abyss holding the key.

The weak exegesis also does not prove the Locust is or will be attacking GodÂ’s people, again, the one who has the key, in context, refutes your claim for you.

Yes, false prophets and the like, who teach accursed things, such as the Trinity, or shifting GodÂ’s Order thinking it is okay when it is not.

Shockingly enough, the only thing you got right is Babylon the Great.

Their final identifying mark surrounds “the camp of the saints” holding them spiritually captive in Satan’s “abyss”.   Rev 13:9,10; Col 2:8

None of these verses speak in regards to Satan’s Abyss. Satan does not own an Abyss – he is cast into one and sealed inside of it.

That being said, if the Bible speaks of Traditions of Men, why did you boldly defend and accept such things the last time we discussed? Hypocritical much?

The anointed “saints” receive the brunt of torment, trampling, treading, poisoned waters,  deception, and the threat of “killing” for discarding their, shackles when choosing to follow  Christ in repentance.  Rev 3:18  But, you would never know it while residing in the WT organization where “peace, health, prosperity” and security are promised in “Jehovah’s organization”.  Those who have fallen into the same trap, also suffer, if one’s adoration given to both Beasts, terminates.  1 Thess 5:3; Rev 13:14,15 

Unfortunately they do know it. The very reason why most who study the Bible is aware of interpretation and hermeneutical studies and taking high regard for context of a verse and or passage isn’t of being an “as is” man or one who simply accept surface information.

Therefore, they, like the rest who know this passage are not in any form of deception.

Satan gives the “authority” or the key of deception to Wormwood, the false prophet/Harlot. Christ has obtained the “authority” and power over deception and death, by conquering it. Heb 2:14-16 

    Hello guest!

The key isnÂ’t authority and Satan never has or has never been given the key, therefore, you are trying to justify a false teaching, spreading the wormwood into the waters, of which you are doing now.

Christ received the “key” at the sounding of the fifth trumpet, you only know this if you understand and apply context.

This does not make him Abaddon, Apollyon or the Destroyer. 

Oh really?

So what is the reason that a King who is a mighty warrior and is accompanied by the same army he is in charge of that fought against Satan and his demons, will do to the wicked on earth granted that he is GodÂ’s representative, his chosen one, his Christ? God destroys the wicked; the wicked perishes. Jesus does anything and everything for his God and Father for it is His Will that he will do, not of his own, but of GodÂ’s, therefore, Jesus will be coming to not just deal with demons, but wicked man of lawlessness as well, including the false prophets and any man who associates themselves with the wild beasts and be met with Eternal Destruction otherwise known as being Destroyed forever/for good (Is No More; Is Gone), or as the tech-savvy Christians like to put it, God delete the wicked from the face of the earth by means of his chosen one, Jesus Christ.

As I said earlier, any casualties during Armageddon and at its culmination, are the result of the authentic Destroyer of life, Satan the Devil, before he is thrown into the Lake of Fire. 1 Cor 15:24; Rev 20:10,14

And? God gave people time, and when that time is up, he will send Jesus to exact justice on the wicked from man to demon. As if the examples in the Bible were not any clear, it will be bigger when GodÂ’s Day does come.

The organization represents Jesus’ arrival with a bow and arrow in hand, ready to pierce man, woman and child with a boundless supply of literal arrows; or so it seems. Yet, look into the scriptures for the symbolism of sword, quiver, arrows in Isa 49:2; Ps 127:3-5 

The JehovahÂ’s Witnesses are not the only one who is aware of this. Jesus is a Mighty Warrior King, chosen by God, anointed by God, he alongside GodÂ’s Army fought against Satan and his Demons, and he will indeed come to do the exact same thing to all men who are wicked, as seen in the Bible all who are wicked, men, women and children met the same fate, it is not different from what is going to happen soon.

That being said, those verses do not prove your point. Watering down the fact that Jesus is not just a King but a Mighty Warrior is misleading.

Scriptures are clear about the identity of the Destroyer. 

“Therefore Jesus said again, “Very truly I tell you, I am the gate for the sheep. 8 All who have come before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep have not listened to them. 9 I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. They will come in and go out, and find pasture. 10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.”   John 10:7-10 

Oh really? Remember you were the one who posted this verse

2 Thess. 2:8 which reads:

And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming.

Jesus, who comes from God, will be destroying the wicked, case and point. I do not see how and why you are ignoring this simple fact. For as a King he will be as such, if you are for God you have life, if you are not for God, you shall perish, no middle ground, regardless of who you are. God has not changed, and his purpose, will and order is done through his Son, Jesus.

From WatchtowerÂ’s leaders:

Rather, this “star” comes as a Freedom-giver, a Liberator of others, for “the key of the pit of the abyss was given him.” He is also a King, for he is “the angel of the abyss” and is the King of those whom he releases from the abyss; in harmony with which fact those whom he releases wear what, to John, “seemed to be crowns like gold.” This symbolic “star” also has a name for this occasion. In Greek its name is Apollyon, which means Destroyer. In Hebrew it is Abaddon, which means Destruction. All these features about this symbolic “star” reveal him to be the glorified Jesus Christ.  Wt 69/12/1

Granted that Jesus is the one who put Satan in captivity, for Jesus is the one who has the key, and clearly death shall not prevail against him. Anyone can see of which star they are referring to, the one of which points back to Revelation 22, which points to Jesus, apparently, so it isnÂ’t out of the ordinary whatsoever.

Jesus is indeed the bright morning star mentioned in that reference.

You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.” John 8:44

“How terrible for you, teachers of the Law and Pharisees! You hypocrites! You lock the door to the Kingdom of heaven in people's faces, but you yourselves don't go in, nor do you allow in those who are trying to enter! Matt 23:13

The only thing that is deception and hypocritical is that fact you make it seem, even believe Satan to be the Angel of the Abyss when he is not. In simple terms, he is a criminal, he is jailed there, imprisoned, and those he falsely accused are released.

Satan was never given a key, nor is the key “authority”, for we are informed in the passage that this key itself gives access to the abyss similar to that of a literal key that opens a door to a house or a car.

As for the ending question

“Who has the key to the abyss?”

Clearly not Satan the Devil.

That being said, no one at all should be watering down JohnÂ’s Revelation, especially when one can understand what is speaks of.

The need to turn Jesus' actions in what is to come into some Disney based gymnastics is horrid, and it defeats the purpose of what the Scriptures conveys in regards to what is to come and what the Abyss is, the key in which has been given and one who has it, as well as the Locust, and those who are sealed or not. Ironically we have yet to began speaking about the Two Witnesses.

That being said.... Best not to be quick about seeing this as a false teaching as you so profess because anyone who has such ideas most likely are arrived at such by thinking that "a star fell from heaven" automatically assume this to be Satan and his fall. And then because he falls he now somehow has the symbolical key to the abyss, which is plausible if one reads surface reads.

Read, Research, Take time to Read and understand your Bible and look at the cross-references, and stop mixing verses to benefit the emotion and opinions you throw into your exegesis, be it you or the  woman you follow as your teacher.

Know this, Jesus will be coming like a warrior with a Sword in hand.

The Christ of my God, your God, is coming and we already know what he is going to do.

jesus-christ-white-horse-revelation-61-2

Your Lord and Christ by means of God's Will is going to destroy the wicked, regardless of what you say, for it is what it is when it comes to the Bible, and Satan himself will indeed be destroyed too, as well as death itself.

Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.

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1 hour ago, Witness said:

Judith, when you look at this picture, how do you interpret it?

Jesus bow.jpg

Jesus is spoken of as a King, a warrior, a high priest, and a list of ohter things.

This depiction of the Christ points to passage of the The Seven Seals (Revelation 6:1, 2) which reads:

[1] Now I watched when the Lamb opened one of the seven seals, and I heard one of the four living creatures say with a voice like thunder, “Come!” [2] And I looked, and behold, a white horse! And its rider had a bow, and a crown was given to him, and he came out conquering, and to conquer. (see 19:11)

Which points back to several references regarding the Christ, such as Revelation 14:14, which reads:

The Harvest of the Earth - Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and seated on the cloud one like a son of man, with a golden crown on his head, and a sharp sickle in his hand.

The white horse itself symbolizes righteous warfare under Jesus Christ’s direction (who is the chief of God's Army, the one who leads them into Battle as he did with the Great Dragon and his demons), with it's rider having a bow and arrow, of which as any archer, would use such an item to take out and pick off enemies from a great distance. The rider has a crown, which was given  to him, for it represents that this rider is a King, for he was given authority and power by God (Matthew 28:18; see Ephesians 1:20, 21; Philippians 2:9, 10) which extends over the nations. For Daniel foretold this in Daniel 2:44 which reads:

And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed, nor shall the kingdom be left to another people. It shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and it shall stand forever,

For Daniel speaks of earthly kings, and or human governments, being displaced by the Kingdom of God under the direction of his King, God's Chosen One, our Lord, Jesus Christ. This is the same Kingdom that Jesus taught his followers to pray for as seen in the Greek New Testament in the following verse:

  • Matthew 6:10 - Your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.

Therefore, this one, is far more powerful a common human ruler, for this one is Lord of lords and King of kings (1 Timothy 6:15,Revelation 17:14,Revelation 19:16) and he will triumph over all who are enemies of what is righteousness, all those who are against God and those who are of the wicked and lawlessness, for this one will be  accompanied by those who are for God and on the side of all things that is of righteousness all who are for the Heavenly Kingdom (Revelation 6:1, 2; 17:14).

  • Psalm 37:29 - The righteous shall inherit the land and dwell upon it forever.
  • Psalm 37:10,11 - [10] In just a little while, the wicked will be no more; though you look carefully at his place, he will not be there. [11] But the meek shall inherit the land and delight themselves in abundant peace.

Laisser le royaume venir

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On 10/23/2018 at 12:46 PM, Witness said:

Who are to receive “double honor”?  Isa 61:6,7; (Isa 43:10; 1 Pet 2:5,9)

Isaiah 61:6, 7 speaks of the prophecy of fulfillment regarding the church. It mentions those who will serve as priests to the True God, moreover, unknown ones who will cooperate with and and work alongside the priests. We understand this that these priests of the True God to be the chosen Christians who have a share “in the coming of the  1st resurrection spoken of in the Bible, for these same ones will be priests of God and of the Christ. Granted they are all part of the spiritual house to honor that of the church, even to those who lead, and or the chosen ones, is to honor God and to honor the Christ.

Isaiah 43:10 (10-12) God was speaking to Israel, for they became witnesses of the True God. They are his servant of whom he had chosen, so they may know and have faith in Him and understand that He is the same One True God, hence God has not changed as the Scriptures says. El Shaddai is One and True, there is no other God but Him, and after Him there has been none. They are His witnesses.

1 Peter 2:5, 9 (including all references) points to all who make up the Spiritual House, offer to God a sacrifice of praise and declaring his name.

On 10/23/2018 at 12:46 PM, Witness said:

Who’s job is it to teach the people? Deut 24:8; Mal 2:7

Priests, ministers, stewards, servants of the church. These, like those at Pentecost heed the call of the Great Commission, preaching and teaching, spreading the gospel, the truth about God and the coming of his Christ and so forth, this is of whom should be teaching the people.

Also, we are under the New Covenant, remember that.

On 10/23/2018 at 12:46 PM, Witness said:

If anyone is to help out the anointed priesthood, should they be given the position of authority to rule and judge the "chosen" as fit or unfit for God’s Kingdom?  Rom 14:4  The anointed priesthood are the “living stones” of God’s Temple.  The WT elder body, who are APPOINTED, not ANOINTED, rule over God’s ANOINTED PRIESTHOOD in the organization.

Those who profess the true gospel and the truth about God help out the church as best as they can just as those of the Priesthood, such ones have roles such as priests and ministers or stewards, and they themselves teach the gospel and spread the gospel, just as those in the priesthood, hence why the honor is directed by those who are of God and of Christ. Granted with the passage I brought forth to you before regarding Paul, it is not unknown to anyone of how the church was structured in this sense, especially with Paul's references to others of the church who has a role in helping people of the church, i.e. The Church in Rome in his Epistle.

We have been through this before about the Spiritual House, the Chosen Ones of the Priesthood are not the only stones in the Spiritual House, the people of the church, men and women, those with roles those with not who all convey and profess the true teachings of the church, why go back on what was discussed before?

Regarding the Watchtower, their religious leaders are spoken of as being among the chosen ones, something of which is between them and God, we cannot be the ones to judge this notion for it is an easy jump to the white throne of which many will tend to avoid, examples of which I discussed with you several times before. Restorationist Christians tend to have a recognizable structure and like their older counterparts, they give honor where it is due to those who lead, to those who profess in the churches, to those who minister, etc. be if of those who are chosen, those who are of authority, etc. Now non-denominational Restorationist is a bit different granted they stick to themselves and are either a loner or of a small group, but the church structure in terms of honor still remains intact.

That being said, all of Christendom who takes the time to understand what it means to give honor to God and to Christ and how this applies to the people of the church, mainly those who lead and teach, will know exactly what is being conveyed here.

On 10/23/2018 at 12:46 PM, Witness said:

There is no leeway in the scriptures for this to be condoned.  Men have made this acceptable.  2 Chron 23:6,7; Ezek 44:6-9

And your point? Granted the gravity of what verses in the hundreds say.

On 10/23/2018 at 12:46 PM, Witness said:

“Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?  If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.”  1 Cor 3:16,17

This I already know. Granted I mention this time and time again to several Trinitarians on this forum and elsewhere. For God dwells in us as he dwells in Christ - that same fullness.

On 10/23/2018 at 12:46 PM, Witness said:

“And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you are the temple of the living God. As God has said: “I will dwell in them And walk among them. I will be their God, And they shall be My people.” 2 Cor 6:16

Ok. And?

On 10/23/2018 at 12:46 PM, Witness said:

The “woman” New Covenant, is a promise of life, initially to the “firstfruits”/priesthood/dwelling of God. Lev 23:10; Neh 10:35; James 1:18; Rev 14:4  They must prepare intensely to be an acceptable offering  AS  God’s dwelling, as the Bride of Christ.  Once the Temple is “capped”, it “comes down out of heaven” as a fulfilled “woman” promise, bringing life to rest of God’s children under the Kingdom Covenant.  So, yes, this promise of “seed” through the “woman” is for all who hold faith in Christ, love him, serve him, and recognize those whom he sends (who become part of the Bride) in truth.   Rev 22:17; Heb 1:14; John 7:38; Matt 10:40,41

Ok, and the last bit you technically indirectly put forth a connection to your own question regarding of who receives honor regarding the church.

That being said... It is always the same with you, re-check your verse, in fact, if I may ask - before you even post something, do you read into the text first or you simply just mention a verse i.e. posting Matthew 10:40, 41 and John 7:38 without knowing what it says and didn't bother to check if it connects?

 

Other than that, I am fully aware of what the New Covenant entails, throw it under the bus either - I defend it.

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@Witness     The first thing that my thought goes to is...that this is an artists depiction of a Mighty King aka Jesus Christ executing judgement.    There has been such a skewing of scripture that I am almost askerred to answer...almost....giving ones fodder to jump in and well, "skew".     As long as scripture is adhered to, it is impossible to misunderstand the Truth.  I thank all of the contributions to this subject, for it has been quite the healthy banter.  Again...Whew!  :)

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15 hours ago, Judith Sweeney said:

The first thing that my thought goes to is...that this is an artists depiction of a Mighty King aka Jesus Christ executing judgement. 

This is a time of confusion.  I’m giving my spiel as a former JW, while SM is right on my heels trying to shoot down most of what I say; based on his beliefs which primarily originate outside the Watchtower.  Yet, he is also advocating for the organization.

You said Jesus would be "executing judgment".  Would Jesus be both the judge and executer? Acts 17:30,31; James 5:9; 2 Cor 5:10   

Does a judge in a court also execute his judgment?

We don’t believe in hell-fire since the very idea is contrary to a loving God.  Jer 19:5   So, why would God’s view of Armageddon be any different?

2 Pet 3:7 - "But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men."

Fire represents God’s Word.  Jer 23:29  The “Word” or Logo is Jesus Christ, our judge. John 1:1

Luke 12: 49,51 “I came to send fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled!   Do you suppose that I came to give peace on earth? I tell you, not at all, but rather division.”

1 Cor 3:13:  “each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is [to be] revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work.”

John 12:48,49:   “He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him—the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day.  For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak.”

“All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.”  1 Tim 3:16,17

He is our judge, not the executor, who is Satan, the King of the Abyss.  Revelation is a symbolic book, implying the spiritual war of truth against lies, which is now at hand.  2 Cor 10:4,5; 2 Tim 4:7; Eph 6:12; Rev 12:17; 16:13,14

 

 

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5 hours ago, Witness said:

This is a time of confusion.  I’m giving my spiel as a former JW, while SM is right on my heels trying to shoot down most of what I say; based on his beliefs which primarily originate outside the Watchtower.  Yet, he is also advocating for the organization.

I really do not care about you being a or a former Jehovah's Witness, I only care about what is true vs. that of conspiracy and or falsehood, as it goes for all Abrahamic faiths, and I made myself clear if something is said that isn't right with one's Christology, something has to be said.

What I have stated I merely used both the Bible and the view of Abbadon, the Angel of the Abyss from actual Christianity vs. mainstream, nothing more.

The very reason I pointed the focus to the abyss, the key, to the angel and who was hurled into the abyss and the very fact that the so called locust were not even going for God's people who are sealed - that alone should tell you something.

And no, this view of the Angel of the Abyss isn't primarily the Watchtower's as you make it out to believe. Methodist, Islam, other Unitarian beliefs, and a the list goes on.

On the other side of the spectrum, you also have a habit of mixing verses, for instance, you stated that Does God feel this way about His Son? And you listed several verses: John 8:54; Luke 9:28,29; 2 Pet 1:17; Rev 1:12-16

For one verse is about Transfiguration, God was not speaking about his Son, Jesus and others who were with him were on their way up to the Mountain and the verses says:

Now about eight days after these sayings he took with him Peter and John and James and went up on the mountain to pray.

You do not see anything from God until verse 35 whereas God spoke and stated This is my Son, the one who has been chosen, listen to Him. The very reason I pointed out Transfiguration. This passage isn't too far off from 2 Peter 1:17 whereas Jesus was spoken of by the very person who bore witness to what took place on that Mountain - which points back to Luke 9:28, 29, the same passage where God spoke in verse 35, which is also referenced.

The next is John 8:54

Jesus answered, “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say, ‘He is our God.’

Clearly we do not see God in this verse, we only see Jesus, who was speaking to angry Jews who were of bad influence. To say ho does God feel this way about his Son, you make it seem you are siding with the view of Trinitarians for they believe Jesus to be God referring to himself, which is not the case.

That being said, you also shouldn't be watering down Jesus' kingship and what he will do, at this, you are applying that of the mainstream belief of Jesus in Christendom vs. what the Bible says.

If you consider this as being an attack when it comes to the truth by terms of the Bible's message, or the Christological belief of Jesus's kingship or ho is really the angel of the abyss and who really has the key, you seriously need to study the Bible more.

5 hours ago, Witness said:

You said Jesus would be "executing judgment".  Would Jesus be both the judge and executer? Acts 17:30,31; James 5:9; 2 Cor 5:10   

The answer to that would be yes. Jesus was given authority and power from his own Father, as well as being made King to sit on the throne of David. We already know by means of God's purpose and will he will destroy the wicked, and knowing Jesus follows the Will of his Father, as the Bible says, he will execute judgment on the wicked.

For he is to already having fought the great dragon with the army given to him by God, he will do the same again as well as deal with the wicked on God's Day. After you technically agreed to this granted with the verses you had posted in your last response, hence one of them I even quoted.

Do not water down Jesus' kingship or the fact he does the purpose and will of his own Father, His God, My God and your God.

5 hours ago, Witness said:

Does a judge in a court also execute his judgment?

Not wise to compare a human judge of the court to God. God has not changed, and surely he would not change of what is to come.

5 hours ago, Witness said:

We don’t believe in hell-fire since the very idea is contrary to a loving God.  Jer 19:5   So, why would God’s view of Armageddon be any different?

This is agreeable regarding hellfire, but when it comes to God's judgement, the wicked will be destroyed for good, perish, if you will. The same goes for Satan, for his time is close also whereas he and anyone connected to him will be destroyed also.

5 hours ago, Witness said:

2 Pet 3:7 - "But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men."

Correct, judgment will soon come to ungodly men, that is of wickedness, lawlessness and badness. God will send his Son to exact this judgement.

5 hours ago, Witness said:

Fire represents God’s Word.  Jer 23:29  The “Word” or Logo is Jesus Christ, our judge. John 1:1

The verse in question says "my word" [Strong's 1697. דָּבָר (dabar)], it does not point to John 1:1 due to occurrences and what it actually points to in the Bible, or in this case, solely the Old Testament, however Deuteronomy 18:18 does and dabar in question is of God's Spoken Word not of the man who became/soon to become flesh.

Jeremiah 23:29 points to Jeremiah 5:14 which reads:

The Lord Proclaims Judgment

Therefore thus says the Lord, the God of hosts: “Because you have spoken this word, behold, I am making my words in your mouth a fire, and this people wood, and the fire shall consume them.

Perhaps it is believable if you check it out for yourself: 

    Hello guest!

5 hours ago, Witness said:

Luke 12: 49,51 “I came to send fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled!   Do you suppose that I came to give peace on earth? I tell you, not at all, but rather division.”

Matthew 10:34-36, John 7:41, 43 and 9:16 as references.

When we look into the verse for context and see the following, to start a fire, it is speaking symbolically about the coming of our Lord, Christ Jesus to bring forth fire to the Jews. For Jesus started the fire by raising various issues that has caused controversy, resulting in the consuming of falsehood, various false practices and false teachings. That being said, read for context rather than picking a verse out to justify something else.

when God’s Kingdom is being made known to the people, and the effect it has on those who accept and those who do not.

a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles,

5 hours ago, Witness said:

1 Cor 3:13:  “each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is [to be] revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work.”

This is a parallel to the case made above, in addition to whom such a message is addressed to, regarding Apostle Paul.

5 hours ago, Witness said:

John 12:48,49:   “He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him—the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day.  For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak.”

For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak.

This is no different from the references of Jesus who came to do the will of his Father.

5 hours ago, Witness said:

“All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.”  1 Tim 3:16,17

This I agreeable, however one has to be very careful of spurious text that spark false teachings, verses that have been added to the bible like Acts 8:37 or Mark 16:9-20 and more.

The good thing I see you learn, you unlike most do not try to equal Jesus to God for people tend to use the forgery of the verse in the KJV Bible to justify falsehood.

5 hours ago, Witness said:

He is our judge, not the executor, who is Satan, the King of the Abyss.  Revelation is a symbolic book, implying the spiritual war of truth against lies, which is now at hand.  2 Cor 10:4,5; 2 Tim 4:7; Eph 6:12; Rev 12:17; 16:13,14

Nowhere in the Bible does it say Satan is the Angel of the Abyss...

  • The Angel of the Abyss was given a key.
  • That same Abyss Satan was hurled into and chained.
  • Satan is NOT the Bright Morning Star mentioned in Revelation 22:16
  • That same Abyss is where the Locust comes from and finally
  • It is that same Abyss as to where Satan is sealed up in.

God would never given Satan a key to his own imprisonment, and if anyone is aware by now, Satan is the one who wants to attack God's people, he would not be avoiding such at all.

You have to really do more research on this passage regarding the Abyss and the one who has the key. Time and time again you say that Satan has the key, when he does not have it, he was the one, the dragon who has been hurled into the abyss. The key in question isn't of authority, it is the key to the abyss itself, which is a direct parallel to Jesus stating he has the Key to Hades, granted the abyss is spoken of as to represent inactivity, sin and death as well.

Indeed there is a Spiritual War, and the truth wins, granted the truth is, a prisoner, chained up and locked away does not hold the key to his own imprisonment nor is that same prisoner spoken of as the bright morning star, do not confuse the two.

“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to testify to you about these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star.”

 

That being said, the Bible speaks of and makes it clear WHO has the key, in this case, keys to such a place, that of even Death and Hades itself as well as the Kingdom.

 

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If Theocratic minded people would spend more time in the Ministry or Studying from God's Word or JW.ORG, then there would not be time for all of this contention or the bantering of the "Highly Intelligent".      "Children behaveeee"  ;)

 

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4 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

I really do not care about you being a or a former Jehovah's Witness,

I believe I was speaking to Judith.  ?

4 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

The good thing I see you learn, you unlike most do not try to equal Jesus to God for people tend to use the forgery of the verse in the KJV Bible to justify falsehood.

I am about ready to fall off my seat.  A compliment from SM.  Thank you. 

4 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

The verse in question says "my word" [Strong's 1697. דָּבָר (dabar)], it does not point to John 1:1 due to occurrences and what it actually points to in the Bible, or in this case, solely the Old Testament, however Deuteronomy 18:18 does and dabar in question is of God's Spoken Word not of the man who became/soon to become flesh.

“The Word became flesh and dwelt among us. We observed his glory, the glory as the one and only Son* from the Father, full of grace and truth.”  John 1:14

4 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

Not wise to compare a human judge of the court to God. God has not changed, and surely he would not change of what is to come.

Who says I am? 

“I watched till thrones were put in place,
And the Ancient of Days was seated;
His garment was white as snow,
And the hair of His head was like pure wool.
His throne was a fiery flame,
Its wheels a burning fire;
10 A fiery stream issued
And came forth from before Him.
A thousand thousands ministered to Him;
Ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him.
The court was seated,
And the books were opened.

I was watching; and the same horn (of the fourth Beast/Revelation’s Beast from the Sea, Rev 13:1)

 was making war against the saints, (Rev 13:7)

and prevailing against them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came, and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom.”  Dan 7:9,10,21

4 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

Satan is NOT the Bright Morning Star mentioned in Revelation 22:16

Of course he isn’t.  But you are saying that the ruling heavenly King is the same star that falls from his exalted position.    Rev 8:10,11; Rev 9:1     

You forget the many scriptures that compare God’s anointed to stars, that God’s word admonishes they could fall from the light of Christ.   Dan 12:3; Phil 2:15; Isa 49:6; Matt 5:16; 1 Pet 2:9; Gen 15:5; Gal 3:29; Isa 58:8; Isa 60:1-3; 2 Pet 1:19; 1 Thess 5:5; Matt 4:16; Job 38:7; Rev 1:20, 12:4 

    Hello guest!

 

The star fell from heaven, from a “heavenly” position in Christ’s right hand (Rev 1:20) and then received the key to the abyss.  "She" didn’t fall with it in hand.  Rev 9:1  Jesus already held the key to Hades and death.  Rev 1:18    This falling “star” rejected the light of Christ, to obtain the power of darkness.  2 Cor 6:14; 1 John 2:19; 2 Pet 2:1-3; Rev 8:11

 

4 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

The key in question isn't of authority,

 

 Strong's G2807 - kleis

a key

A.                since the keeper of the keys has the power to open and to shut

B.                 metaph. in the NT to denote power and authority of various kinds

 

Your view is physical, not spiritual.  Whatever damage is done to humans who are judged by Christ as not worthy of the Kingdom, is at the hand of the Destroyer, Satan. God removes His protection, and Satan steps in. Exod 12:23   It is through our own free choice that we are judged as receiving either eternal life or death.  God has always warned of coming disaster, as He is doing today through Christ.  We can choose and are guided by the spiritual darkness of the abyss, or the spiritual light radiating from Christ.  Rom 8:14; John 8:44

“For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.”  Heb 4:12

This judgment is in progress during  our lifetime.  We can defeat death and the abyss ,where the light of Christ cannot be perceived, or remain in its darkness, alienated from Christ.   1 Cor 15:55

“Therefore, since we have this ministry because we were shown mercy, we do not give up. Instead, we have renounced secret and shameful things, not acting deceitfully or distorting the word of God, but commending ourselves before God to everyone’s conscience by an open display of the truth. But if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishingIn their case, the god of this age has blinded the minds of the unbelievers (“not perceiving”/Hades/Sheol/abyss) to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. For we are not proclaiming ourselves but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus’s sake. For God who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of God’s glory in the face of Jesus Christ.”  2 Cor 4:1-6

The word, “blinded” comes from  

    Hello guest!
 “to raise a smoke; hence, properly, 'darkened by smoke'”

“The fifth angel blew his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from heaven to earth. The key for the shaft to the abyss was given to him. He opened the shaft to the abyss, and smoke came up out of the shaft like smoke from a great furnace so that the sun and the air were darkened by the smoke from the shaft. Then locusts came out of the smoke on to the earth, and power was given to them like the power that scorpions have on the earth.”  Rev 9:1-3

The abyss – “not perceiving”, blindness.  Satan, as the King of the abyss gives this ability or key of authority to the fallen star – Wormwood who is the false prophet/ Beast from the Earth.  Rev 13:11

 

 

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, Witness said:

I believe I was speaking to Judith.  ?

And yet I was mentioned, like said before, I tend to make a response to a response or when mentioned.

4 hours ago, Witness said:

I am about ready to fall off my seat.  A compliment from SM.  Thank you. 

It isn't the first time I thanked you, but okay. It has to be known to all Christians that spurious text and professing such as truth is unacceptable.

4 hours ago, Witness said:

“The Word became flesh and dwelt among us. We observed his glory, the glory as the one and only Son* from the Father, full of grace and truth.”  John 1:14

I am aware of that but the focus here is of God's Spoken Word, not the Word that became flesh, for if the focus was indeed of The Word that became, hence the verse in Deuteronomy that I brought up.

We should be aware of such a thing, therefore the references do not change, I suggest checking Biblehub because what was said is actually correct in which I professed.

4 hours ago, Witness said:

Who says I am? 

“I watched till thrones were put in place,
And the Ancient of Days was seated;
His garment was white as snow,
And the hair of His head was like pure wool.
His throne was a fiery flame,
Its wheels a burning fire;
10 A fiery stream issued
And came forth from before Him.
A thousand thousands ministered to Him;
Ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him.
The court was seated,
And the books were opened.

I was watching; and the same horn (of the fourth Beast/Revelation’s Beast from the Sea, Rev 13:1)

 was making war against the saints, (Rev 13:7)

and prevailing against them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came, and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom.”  Dan 7:9,10,21

It seems as if you did when you said Does a judge in a court also execute his judgment.

4 hours ago, Witness said:

Of course he isn’t.  But you are saying that the ruling heavenly King is the same star that falls from his exalted position.    Rev 8:10,11; Rev 9:1     

And where have I compared them when I stated the following?

I even stated, in response to you that

[3] You are trying to equal the stars as the same when both stars, in both verses are different.

Your biggest error here is assuming the star in Revelation 9:1 and the star in Revelation 8:10, 11 are the same.

The star mentioned in Revelation 9:1 is different from the one in Revelation 8:10, 11, for it is rather obvious to when one can read the verse for themselves and notice this, a big factor here, against you, is the references.

  • The star that came out of heaven and came to earth was the one who has been given (verb) the key. This one was not excused of a heavenly and or exalted position, in fact, this one is spoken of as to having the key to the abyss.
  • The other star fell from heaven like a blazing torch. This one is the cause of bitter waters, ruins the truth in regards to falsehood with what it professes.

Clearly I have not said anywhere that they are the same, however only one of them is the Bright Morning Star, which in cross-references points to the verses in Revelation 20 and 22.

We should not be ignoring the cross-references nor can one ignore the fact that both of those verses you mention are not a direct reference to the other, so to speak, hence why when one reads for context they can see the star mentioned in Revelation 9:1 is not the same star in Revelation 8:10, 11, the same case as those verses in chapter 8 do not isn't the same star in as read in Revelation 22:16.

4 hours ago, Witness said:

You forget the many scriptures that compare God’s anointed to stars, that God’s word admonishes they could fall from the light of Christ.   Dan 12:3; Phil 2:15; Isa 49:6; Matt 5:16; 1 Pet 2:9; Gen 15:5; Gal 3:29; Isa 58:8; Isa 60:1-3; 2 Pet 1:19; 1 Thess 5:5; Matt 4:16; Job 38:7; Rev 1:20, 12:4 

    Hello guest!

I haven't forgotten, my last response stated this, several times, even referencing spirit beings being refereed to as stars.

So if I have forgotten these verses and or passages, why would I have made mention to them in the first place? That being said, several of this passages you have misused in your last response.

I'll even quote myself so you can see:

Quote

According to your response, let's take a look at the verses themselves:

NOTE: Keep this in mind. In the Bible, it speaks of spirit beings are, at times, referred to as stars (Job 38:7, Isaiah 14:13). Jesus is also referred to as a star, to be more specific, the bright morning star (Numbers 24:17, Revelations 2:28, 22:16).

Now,

  • Genesis 15:5 nothing regarding faithful "stars" simply God making known literal stars in the sky, the same stars we see at night when we look up. Now in 26:4, the stars are many, referring to offspring [those who are born] that will multiple just as the stars in the sky.
  • Daniel 12:3 is regarding those with spiritual insight and or wisdom. The chosen ones, the remnant, would be bringing the many to righteousness "like stars".
  • Galatians 3:29 speaks of the heirs of the New Covenant, those who are in union with Christ as well as being part of Spiritual Israel and the Spiritual House should we count references.
  • Matthew 24:3 is regarding the coming of the signs of things that signify when the end times will conclude, hence "The End of This Age".
  • Matthew 7:7 seek and you shall find, knock and it will be opened… Stars? Where?
  • The rest does not even line up with what you said either, so you are once again exposed for mixing verses and not taking in the context of the verses in question. So to whom are is the lair here in this sense?

Here is all your verses, I suggest you check the references and context for all of them.

    Hello guest!

 

 

4 hours ago, Witness said:

The star fell from heaven, from a “heavenly” position in Christ’s right hand (Rev 1:20) and then received the key to the abyss.  "She" didn’t fall with it in hand.  Rev 9:1  Jesus already held the key to Hades and death.  Rev 1:18    This falling “star” rejected the light of Christ, to obtain the power of darkness.  2 Cor 6:14; 1 John 2:19; 2 Pet 2:1-3; Rev 8:11

In Revelation 1:20 (verse 16 and 2:1), in John's vision, Jesus is spoken of as having the 7 stars of the churches in his right hand, for all these bodies of people who make up the church, specifically priests, elders, etc. are of his, the Christ's, favor and such ones are under the complete control, direction and power of the Head of the Church himself, our Lord, Christ Jesus These priests and elders of the church symbolized as the stars, to some extant, like angels in Christ’s right hand (Isaiah 61:5, 6, Colossians 1:18).

And yes, the star of Revelation 8:10, 11 rejects the teachings that are clean and true, but like I said, this star is not the same as the one in Revelation 9:1, both Scriptural proof and context is solidified evidence of this.

4 hours ago, Witness said:

Strong's G2807 - kleis

a key

A.                since the keeper of the keys has the power to open and to shut

B.                 metaph. in the NT to denote power and authority of various kinds

And?

I will quote myself:

Quote

Notice who gives this Beast power:

“The dragon gave him his power, his throne, and great authority.” Rev 13:2b

 Rev 9:3 – “Then out of the smoke locusts came upon the earth. And to them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.” 

The Dragon didn't give the Locust Power. The cross-reference to this verse, [part B], points to Revelation 12:9 which reads:

And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

He gave his power to the wild beast – not the locust.

We know this because the Bible teaches that the enemy of God, Satan, has authority and control over the very world he is the ruler of regarding things in today's society, even politics (Luke 4:5, 6).

Another example of you twisting scripture when not even a shred of a reference equal both verses at all. That is shameful.

Since the Beast from the Sea/abyss is under the direction of the Beast/false prophet, then who gives the fallen star, Wormwood, a “key” or the authority to direct the Wild Beast, in Satan’s deceitful ploy?  The King of the abyss, Abaddon (“Destruction”) in Hebrew, but in Greek he has the name Apollyon – Destroyer.  He is Revelation’s dragon.    Rev 9:1,2,11; 13:11,12,14-17

Incorrect.

No one, even Satan himself was given a key nor had the key to the abyss themselves. The only one who has the key was the Angel of the Abyss.

The Christ is the one who secures Satan’s captivity, ushering in the 1,000 year reign, for it can be fitting for anyone to see who he represents and who he is; symbolized by the angel having the key of the abyss and by the star to whom the key was given.

And as the giving (verb; Revelation 9:1) of a thing to any certain one must precede the having Revelation 1:18, 20:1.  Obviously it can be spoken of as the Christ receiving the key at the sounding of the 5th trumpet prior to or sometime during the 1,000 year reign. He already has it at prior to the commencement of the millennium.

God’s chosen one is here to bring forth deliverance from the prison house of sin and of death (the abyss), and to do so through the proclamation of the gospel, the key, therefore, must be figurative of the gospel, the only power that is able to set free those who are imprisoned in the abyss, which is where the Locust comes in, released from captivity and go about like that of a swarm. Also I’d like to add that the abyss is spoken of as a place of inactivity, which can be compared to verses such as Romans 10:7, Revelation 17:8, 20:1, 3.

The abyss in Revelation 20:3 is symbolical for it represents the earth as a prison house, then the abyss of Revelation 9:1, being identical, must likewise be symbolical of the earth as a prison house at another time. This implicitly Biblical interpretation of the star, the key, and the abyss reveals that the earth, becomes like that of a prison house (a pit) for God’s people and that Christ came to open it in order to deliver them, save them.

Therefore when we understand the context of that verse in question, it can be said, again, that The key in question isn't of authority regarding of the verse I made a response to, granted, the Devil was never given any key or keys at all.

4 hours ago, Witness said:

Your view is physical, not spiritual.  Whatever damage is done to humans who are judged by Christ as not worthy of the Kingdom, is at the hand of the Destroyer, Satan. God removes His protection, and Satan steps in. Exod 12:23   It is through our own free choice that we are judged as receiving either eternal life or death.  God has always warned of coming disaster, as He is doing today through Christ.  We can choose and are guided by the spiritual darkness of the abyss, or the spiritual light radiating from Christ.  Rom 8:14; John 8:44

No, my view is always spiritual, never have I applied man's understanding when I have been against it for years, as with my disdain for the mainstream Christendom and it's accursed teachings, the watering down of God's Word, if you will.

How did Satan step in at Exodus 12:13 when it was God who sent an Angel (clearly not Satan) do exact judgement? Be very careful of the bitter water, Witness.

The verse even tells you

For the Lord [YHWH] will pass through to strike the Egyptians, and when he sees the blood on the lintel and on the two doorposts, the Lord [YHWH] will pass over the door and will not allow the destroyer to enter your houses to strike you.

The Destroyer here was an Angel, in some translations, it will say the Angel of Death.

For example the GNT will say: When the LORD goes through Egypt to kill the Egyptians, he will see the blood on the beams and the doorposts and will not let the Angel of Death enter your houses and kill you.

God would never, or would it ever cross his mind to send or allow Satan to do such an action, nowhere in the Bible was Satan the Devil under Shaliach Principle, for he is God's Adversary, let alone any of the spirit beings who follow him because they have been banish from being in the presence of God (Matthew 8:28, 29; Luke 4:33, 34, James 2:19).

The same Angel of Death is later found in Scripture to save a follower of God from the Assyrians, as stated before.

If you think it was Satan that was this angel in Exodus 12:23, it is clear as to what kind of understanding you adhere to.

That being said, I suggest you re-read the passage of God choosing Moses to get his people out of the captivity of the Egyptians.

4 hours ago, Witness said:

“For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.”  Heb 4:12

This is agreeable, but at the same time we have to understand, even recognize the truth, apply, meditate and so forth.

This also goes outside of the Bible as well, to understand what is true and what is not true, hence why such ones will speak up in terms of having the truth whereas one is surrounded by those who dwell in the house of lies.

4 hours ago, Witness said:

This judgment is in progress during  our lifetime.  We can defeat death and the abyss ,where the light of Christ cannot be perceived, or remain in its darkness, alienated from Christ.   1 Cor 15:55

We can defeat sin and death, the abyss itself is different although that and Hades is a place of inactivity.

4 hours ago, Witness said:

The word, “blinded” comes from  

    Hello guest!
 “to raise a smoke; hence, properly, 'darkened by smoke'”

I know what it is, but as you can see G 5185 isn't used in Revelation 9:1. Blinded root meaning is properly, blowing smoke which causes (spiritual) blindness, i.e. experiencing "clouded vision." The word has a single occurrence in Revelation chapter 3

  • Revelation 3:17 - For you say, I am rich, I have prospered, and I need nothing, not realizing that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked.
  • in Greek text:  ὅτι λέγεις ὅτι Πλούσιός εἰμι καὶ πεπλούτηκα καὶ οὐδενὸς χρείαν ἔχω καὶ οὐκ οἶδας ὅτι σὺ εἶ ὁ ταλαίπωρος καὶ ἐλεεινὸς καὶ πτωχὸς καὶ τυφλὸς [τυφλόω] καὶ γυμνός

Now in Revelation 9:2-3 the word smoke is used a total of 3 times (a total of 6 times Kapnos is used in chapter 9) as seen below:

[2] He opened the shaft of the bottomless pit, and from the shaft rose smoke like the smoke of a great furnace, and the sun and the air were darkened with the smoke from the shaft. [3] Then from the smoke came locusts on the earth, and they were given power like the power of scorpions of the earth.

The Greek word for smoke is Kapnos (καπνός) it is a Strong's 2586 (

    Hello guest!
) and it is used in Revelation 9, not the same usage as the word "blinded" as you mentioned - do not confuse the two, hence the learning of Greek you must know because that is an obvious catch.

4 hours ago, Witness said:

“The fifth angel blew his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from heaven to earth. The key for the shaft to the abyss was given to him. He opened the shaft to the abyss, and smoke came up out of the shaft like smoke from a great furnace so that the sun and the air were darkened by the smoke from the shaft. Then locusts came out of the smoke on to the earth, and power was given to them like the power that scorpions have on the earth.”  Rev 9:1-3

Like I said, you cannot try to justify something when they are not the same, but only this time, you cannot mess around with Greek Strong's, and doing so, mainly in the world of Hermeneutics, it is a violation of text.

As we can see in the Greek version of these verses, "blinded" is nowhere to be found

The smoke = καπνὸς (kapnos)

Blind/Blinded = τυφλὸς [τυφλόω] (Tuphlos)

[2] καὶ ἤνοιξεν τὸ φρέαρ τῆς ἀβύσσου καὶ ἀνέβη καπνὸς ἐκ τοῦ φρέατος ὡς καπνὸς καμίνου μεγάλης καὶ ἐσκοτώθη ὁ ἥλιος καὶ ὁ ἀὴρ ἐκ τοῦ καπνοῦ τοῦ φρέατος [3] καὶ ἐκ τοῦ καπνοῦ ἐξῆλθον ἀκρίδες εἰς τὴν γῆν καὶ ἐδόθη αὐταῖς ἐξουσία ὡς ἔχουσιν ἐξουσίαν οἱ σκορπίοι τῆς γῆς

    • Hello guest!
    • Hello guest!

Know the difference, for the word you linked, here is the Strong's and the occurrences for Blind/Blinded: 

    Hello guest!

4 hours ago, Witness said:

The abyss – “not perceiving”, blindness.  Satan, as the King of the abyss gives this ability or key of authority to the fallen star – Wormwood who is the false prophet/ Beast from the Earth.  Rev 13:11

Again - nowhere in scripture is Satan spoken of as being the Angel of the Abyss; he was hurled into the abyss, sealed there by the one who has the key. Satan never gave any ability to the fallen star, Revelation states that Satan was the one who has given authority and the throne to the wild beast.

Very basic stuff, then again, Revelation is deemed way to complex to those who tend to throw emotion into the text, hence what you have stated, physical understanding.

Also Revelation 13:11 (see also Rev. 16:13 and 20:2) is regarding the Second Beast. Hence even before I stated the following:

Quote

Revelation 13:11 is regarding the second beast that rises out of the earth. This land beast has 2 horns like a lamb and it speaks like a dragon. It claims to be a Christian but it is not. It collects and colonizes nations and exploits and it is present along with the first beast.

Next time apply context and read for understanding.

The only one who has the key, or keys, in this matter, is the one who does the will of God, the very reason when the 1,000 year is commenced, Satan will be sealed away in the abyss, him and his demons, and for those in captivity had since been delivered. A time will come when the Devil will be released, and this time, the one who has the key will crush the head of the serpent.

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3 hours ago, Judith Sweeney said:

I do not understand how Anyone could believe in the pagan doctrine of the trinity. It truly is Not Biblical.

Among the things of mainstream Christendom, the Trinity is something I have a strong disdain for.

I do not see how anyone would thing God is a 3 in 1 deal, the only God is the Father, the Shema Yisrael further proves that.

I understand their Christology well and know what tricks they do to deceive people of who God is and who His Son is.

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21 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

The star mentioned in Revelation 9:1 is different from the one in Revelation 8:10, 11, for it is rather obvious to when one can read the verse for themselves and notice this, a big factor here, against you, is the references.

  • The star that came out of heaven and came to earth was the one who has been given (verb) the key. This one was not excused of a heavenly and or exalted position, in fact, this one is spoken of as to having the key to the abyss.
  • The other star fell from heaven like a blazing torch. This one is the cause of bitter waters, ruins the truth in regards to falsehood with what it professes.

Clearly I have not said anywhere that they are the same, however only one of them is the Bright Morning Star, which in cross-references points to the verses in Revelation 20 and 22.

I declare, every time I respond to you, I am with the hope that JWs become alert to Watchtower’s lies.

I repeat, when Jesus bound Satan by “putting him in prison”, or binding his capability to deceive God’s people for a symbolic “thousand years”, he didn’t fall from heaven to do so. Rev 20:1

The Greek word for “come down” in Rev 20:1 primarily means to “descend”,

“as from the temple at Jerusalem, from the city of Jerusalem”, or

“of celestial beings coming down to earth”

This is a choice made by the one descending.

Why would he then “fall” to open or unlock the abyss to release a tortuous army that comes against his own unsealed anointed ones?  Rev 9:4  And yes, this is what this army is trained to do.  Rev 9:4,5; 13:6,7

Rev 9:1 – Then the fifth angel sounded: And I saw a star fallen from heaven to the earth.

The word here for “fall” is an entirely different Greek word. It, too, means to “descend” but

to descend from a higher place to a lower

A.                 to fall (either from or upon)

i.to be thrust down

B.                 metaph. to fall under judgment, came under condemnation

I.to descend from an erect to a prostrate position

 .                    to fall down

 .to be prostrated, fall prostrate

This star didn’t have a choice to leave heaven, as Christ did in Rev 20:1

It is the same Greek word used in Rev 8:1 – “Then the third angel sounded: And a great star fell from heaven

A “star” falls, to poison waters of truth, as a false prophet.  Can it do this without Satan’s spirit?  No. It is given the authority from him to deceive.  Rev 9:11; 13:11,12,13,15; 16:13  The “star” uses that authority to release an “army” that enforces the false prophet’s teachings – an army also receiving power from Satan.  Rev 13:1,2; 9:1

The two together create a “spirit-directed” “image” of authority, as if coming from God and Christ. Rev 13:11,15  The fallen star directs her released army to come against the “kings of the earth” (Rev 9:1) – the saints, (Christ’s kings of the earth Rev 1:5) as well as the “nations” who swallow her lies.  Wormwood’s waters are a combination of truthful “waters”, poisoned with deception.  Rev 13:7 

 “She” is a composite of harlot daughters of “Babylon” who “sits on many waters”.  Rev 17:1-6

There are not two separate stars, with one being Christ. You are thus comparing the fall of an anointed “star” from a heavenly position who becomes a false prophet, and applying its significant fall, to Christ;  just as the Watchtower has done.   Dear SM, this is utterly demeaning to the reigning “Bright Morning Star” of Rev 22:16  Earlier I gave scriptures that relate the anointed ones to "stars".  

The abyss is the dark state of “not perceiving”.  We can be part of it, just as the army that emerges from the state of “not perceiving”. 1 Pet 2:9; Eph 6:12; 5:8  It can be a tool of deceit by Satan, or representation of “binding up”, as an imprisonment that Christ used, when figuratively throwing Satan into that state of blindness – of not perceiving, for a symbolic “thousand years”.  Once released from being bound, Satan empowers the fallen star, false prophet to DECEIVE the remaining ones of the woman’s seed.   Rev 8:10-12; 12:4

This army/Beast to come against the “saints”, belongs to Satan.  Rev 9:10,11; 13:1,2,4,7; 12:3

It is an army that God “sends” or allows Satan, who demands each of us to be “sifted”, to enact his delusion against each anointed and companions as wheat or weeds. Luke 22:31;  I’m repeating what I’ve said earlier, I believe. Joel 2:2,4,5,12,20,25-27; 2 Thess 2:9-12 

Many have felt the “sting” of this locust army that comes against the anointed ones.  It judges them as unfit for the Kingdom of God, disfellowshipping or “killing” them for refusing to give devotion to the spirit-directed “image” of the Beast.  Rev 13:15   This army “stands” in the Temple of God (1 Cor 3:16,17; Rev 11:1-3,7) as the Man of Lawlessness.  Rev 13:18; 2 Thess 2:3,4  It tramples and replaces the anointed priesthood, wearing “crowns of something like gold, and their faces were like the faces of men”.   Rev 9:7; Rev 11:1,2; Dan 8:11; 11:36,37

Who, in tandem, gives them the authority to do so?  Satan and “Wormwood” – the GB.  Matt 24:48-51

Those who suffer such condemnation at the hands of Satan’s pawns (John 8:44-47)  are refined of their idolatrous sins and lies fed to them if they submit themselves fully to Christ’s truth.  Mal 3:2,3; Rev 3:18

21 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

I am aware of that but the focus here is of God's Spoken Word, not the Word that became flesh, for if the focus was indeed of The Word that became, hence the verse in Deuteronomy that I brought up.

We should be aware of such a thing, therefore the references do not change, I suggest checking Biblehub because what was said is actually correct in which I professed.

Rev 19:3 

I know you want to teach me, and I truly believe it is done with sincerity, but it is also done as if you are the only man on earth who has Holy Spirit. I do appreciate it when you give links to the meaning of scripture.   But what if, what if, you are the one who may be misled by certain concepts?  What if Jesus allows others who are anointed, to understand the true meaning of Revelation?  Is that such an impossibility?

Just sayin’

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, Witness said:

I declare, every time I respond to you, I am with the hope that JWs become alert to Watchtower’s lies.

But what is professed isn't even a lie, among all things relating to John's Revelation, or in this case, the Book of Revelation, all said is indeed true, but apparently when the JWs come along their own opponents seem to make it seem what is being profess only originates with them, which is utterly false.

Everything regarding the Angel of the Abyss is true, those who believe the Angel to be Satan himself, or the fact Satan locked himself up in his own prison, such ones adhere to the mainstream Christendom and it is obvious, it isn't too far to the doctrine of God using demons to do his bidding, which is also false - a lie.

4 hours ago, Witness said:

I repeat, when Jesus bound Satan by “putting him in prison”, or binding his capability to deceive God’s people for a symbolic “thousand years”, he didn’t fall from heaven to do so. Rev 20:1

But earlier you stated that The Angel of the Abyss is Satan, if you believe that Jesus was the one who bounded and hurled Satan to the Abyss and it the only one to have sealed Satan there once all is said and done. Then you have the locust who are to torment the those not being sealed, those of false Christendom, as the references make clear when put into context and the very fact that such signifies the people who profess truth to spread such the people while this in effect is affecting falsehood Christianity.

You make want to re-check the Strongs for "fall" whereas it even tells you that: to descend from a higher place to a lower whereas when reading and applying the verse in context we know that Jesus well be coming from heaven to earth, for he the star that fell from heaven to come to earth, having the key to deal with the Dragon is spoken of to be the ruler of this world. For if you have forgotten, Satan had been long gone from Heaven after war that broke out in Heaven, it would not make sense for Satan to be kicked out a second time from a place of which he had been cut off from God's presence like his demon counterparts - I believe I said something to a similar effect to you before.

And yes, the one who has the key has indeed imprisoned Satan the Devil.

5 hours ago, Witness said:

The Greek word for “come down” in Rev 20:1 primarily means to “descend”,

In Revelation 20:1 the Greek word is  katabainó (καταβαίνω), the Strong's number is 2597, it does mean to descend, but do the word justice, gives it full root:

  • Definition: to go down
  • Usage: I go down, come down, either from the sky or from higher land, descend.
  • brought down (1)
  • came down (12)
  • come down (15)
  • comes down (4)
  • coming (1)
  • coming down (9)
  • descend (3)
  • descended (6)
  •  descending (5)
  • descends (1)
  • falling down (1)
  • fell (1)
  • go (1)
  • go down (4)
  • go downstairs (1)
  • going down (3)
  • got (1)
  • steps down (1)
  • went (1)
  • went down (11)

With about 82 or so occurrences

And regarding this we already know who was it that came down, who was that specific star that Revelation 20:1 references is regarding when it points back via cross-reference to Revelation 9:1.

That being said, the one who had the key, who came out of heaven on to the earth, this one is the one called Jesus, or to some Michael the Archangel, despite it being the same individual. He is the one who seizes the dragon, the serpent, who is the Devil, bounding him for a 1,000 years and proceeds to toss him into he the abyss and shuts it, sealing it over him, that he might not mislead the nations anymore until the 1,000 year millennium reign has concluded. were ended.

5 hours ago, Witness said:

Rev 9:1 – Then the fifth angel sounded: And I saw a star fallen from heaven to the earth.

And your point?

5 hours ago, Witness said:

The word here for “fall” is an entirely different Greek word. It, too, means to “descend” but

to descend from a higher place to a lower

A.                 to fall (either from or upon)

i.to be thrust down

B.                 metaph. to fall under judgment, came under condemnation

I.to descend from an erect to a prostrate position

 .                    to fall down

 .to be prostrated, fall prostrate

You do realize if you scroll down on Blue letter it tells you what is in use, therefore, the fact that you miss this further proves my point.

Let's take the information from blue letter so it can be shown as how you made this error on your own accord.

You put in bold the following for  

  • which on Blue letter it points to the occurrences and it reads: . metaphorically: οὐ πίπτει ἐπί τινα ὁ ἥλιος, i. e. the heat of the sun does not strike upon them or incommode them, Revelation 7:16; (ἀχλύς καί σκότος, Acts 13:11 L T Tr WH); ὁ κλῆρος πίπτει ἐπί τινα, the lot falls upon one, Acts 1:20; φόβος πίπτει ἐπί τινα, falls upon or seizes one (Acts 19:17 L Tr); Revelation 11:11 Rec.; (τό πνεῦμα τό ἅγιον, Acts 10:44 Lachmann); πίπτω ὑπό κρίσιν, to fall under judgment, come under condemnation, James 5:12 (where Rec.st εἰς ὑπόκρισιν).

As we can see, we do not see Revelation 9:1 anywhere in hence the fact you put in bold  to justify something is both an error and is unfounded.

  • Now let's go to [A] whereas we see on Blue Letter it states the following: [A]. properly, to fall (either from or upon, equivalent to Latin incido, decido): ἐπί with the accusative of place, Matthew 10:29; Matthew 13:5,(Matthew 13:7),Matthew 13:8; Matthew 21:44 (T omits; L WH Tr marginal reading brackets the verse); Mark 4:5; Luke 8:6 (here T Tr WH κατέπεσεν), 8 Rec.; Revelation 8:10; εἰς τί (of the thing that is entered; into), Matthew 15:14; Matthew 17:15; Mark 4:7 (L marginal reading ἐπί); Luke 6:39, R G L marginal reading (but L text T Tr WH ἐμπεσοῦνται); Luke 8:8 G L T Tr WH (Luke 8:14; Luke 14:5 L T Tr WH); John 12:24; εἰς (upon) τήν γῆν, Revelation 6:13; Revelation 9:1; ἐν μέσῳ, with the genitive of the thing, Luke 8:7; παρά τήν ὁδόν, Matthew 13:4; Mark 4:4; Luke 8:5; to fall from or down: followed by ἀπό with the genitive of place, Matthew 15:27; Matthew 24:29 (here Tdf. ἐκ; Luke 16:21); Acts 20:9; followed by ἐκ with the genitive of place (Mark 13:25 L T Tr WH); Revelation 8:10; Revelation 9:1; equivalent to to be thrust down, Luke 10:18.

As we can see, the metaphorical occurrence for this word does not apply to Revelation 9:1 - at all. Perhaps you can fool someone who is a novice in Biblical Hermeneutics regarding Hebrew and Greek Strong's, but clearly you are dealing with someone who takes hermeneutics seriously - even that of the Strong's itself.

So I ask you this, why are you trying to justify metaphorical on to Revelation 9:1? The fact that you did that further proves my point of how some folks need to learn the elementary basics in Strong's, in this regard, that website alone conspired against you in this case.

Here is the link and I suggest you learn about these occurrences (

    Hello guest!
) instead of mixing them up, you can mix Bible verses and be called for it, but when you mix Strong's, it is a Hermeneutical violation.

That being said this was a dead giveaway: metaph. to fall under judgment, came under condemnation as with the equivalents.

5 hours ago, Witness said:

This star didn’t have a choice to leave heaven, as Christ did in Rev 20:1

Actually the Star in question, regarding the Christ, o not act upon his own will, but the will of God, his Father. Jesus is the one who will put his heel on the head of the serpent.

We know this because of God's promise regarding the coming Messiah, the Christ in Genesis 3:15

I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.”

This same verse, specifically part B points to Revelation 20:1, 10, in turn, points back to Revelation 9:1 regarding the star in question.

Remember, Jesus didn't do things on his own, he was under Shaliach Principle, hence, all he says and does is because of God, his Father. I can even quote myself from a previous comment to which I stated:

And it should be known to you by now that Jesus does the Will of his Father, who is God. So if God says he is going to destroy the wicked and those of lawlessness, Jesus will enact the Will of his Father in this regard, for he didn't come the first time to do his own Will, but the Will of the one who sent him (John 5:30, 35, 36, 14:10).

Or as Jesus points it himself:

“I can do nothing on my own. As I hear, I judge, and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me.... He was a burning and shining lamp, and you were willing to rejoice for a while in his light.

But the testimony that I have is greater than that of John. For the works that the Father has given me to accomplish, the very works that I am doing, bear witness about me that the Father has sent me.... Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works.

5 hours ago, Witness said:

It is the same Greek word used in Rev 8:1 – “Then the third angel sounded: And a great star fell from heaven

I know the Strong's the word is indeed the same, but the star are not the same, so are the angels who sounded the trumpets, are not the same. That being said, we can see here, there is no metaphorical usage as well, of which you confused in your last response.

5 hours ago, Witness said:

A “star” falls, to poison waters of truth, as a false prophet.  Can it do this without Satan’s spirit?  No. It is given the authority from him to deceive.  Rev 9:11; 13:11,12,13,15; 16:13  The “star” uses that authority to release an “army” that enforces the false prophet’s teachings – an army also receiving power from Satan.  Rev 13:1,2; 9:1

The Star in Chapter 8 is exactly as to what you and what I have said, however this verse does not even point to Revelation 9:1 at all, nor does it equal the star found here to the other verse as the same and anyone can see this with the basics of context in application to Scripture.

Satan's Spirit? I do not know if you realize this, but Satan the Devil is a Spirit, the Wild Beast and the false ones are those who have been influenced by Satan, thus doing his bidding, hence the false teachings and accursed doctrines and a list of other things that has defiled the church, however with that being said, the star of Revelation 9:1 which is a reference to the Christ, hence the list of cross-references that further proves this, shows us that this one has the key to hurl and seal up Satan the Devil.

Authority is regarding the first and second beast as I pointed out to earlier, I believe I mentioned the fourth beast as well, none of them are part of the army of locust that comes out of the abyss itself.

That being said, I will quote this verse again

And the fifth angel blew his trumpet, and I saw a star fallen from heaven to earth, and he was given the key to the shaft of the bottomless pit.

Only one has the key and or keys, and that same one, this angel, is the one who put Satan in captivity. A cannot have a key to the very place of which he is chained up in, and the prisoner in question sees to attack God's people, not false religion, and the locusts focus is that of false religion and her teachings.

5 hours ago, Witness said:

The two together create a “spirit-directed” “image” of authority, as if coming from God and Christ. Rev 13:11,15  The fallen star directs her released army to come against the “kings of the earth” (Rev 9:1) – the saints, (Christ’s kings of the earth Rev 1:5) as well as the “nations” who swallow her lies.  Wormwood’s waters are a combination of truthful “waters”, poisoned with deception.  Rev 13:7 

These stars in question are not together, the very reason you have one who is referred to as wormwood and the other a reference to the angel of the abyss. If the stars in question where working together, spirit-directed as you are claiming, then why would the joining of the two lead to Satan's imprisonment and the Locust in question having targeted false Christendom instead of the true one?

You are falling on your own sword at this point for the context itself triumph over mainstream ideologies.

That being said, if you go to the cross-reference for Revelation 9:1 regarding "earth" in context, it conveys that the star descended from heaven to earth, having been given the key. Furthermore, we know that the Bible and Christ being complementary affinities, each the Word of God (John 1:1-14), then the fact that the descent of the first star is symbolical one in question - The Christ, the bright morning star.

6 hours ago, Witness said:

“She” is a composite of harlot daughters of “Babylon” who “sits on many waters”.  Rev 17:1-6

So you want to speak of Babylon the Great now or still the wild beast, false prophets and Satan? Granted the focus is about the angel of the abyss being given the key and the like.

That being said before, I know we discussed here with you or someone else about Babylon the Great and those under her, even the likes of prophetesses with the spirit of a Jezebel woman and so forth.

6 hours ago, Witness said:

There are not two separate stars, with one being Christ.

Actually they are two separate stars, the cross-references of which I professed before is further evidence of this.

Revelation 9:1 points to Revelation 9:11, 20:1-4, which goes on to 22:16. while Revelation 8:10 points to Revelation 16:1, 4 while verse 11 points to Amos 5:7.

You claim both stars are the same, so I ask you, why in the Bible itself when you look at the cross-references itself they point to these verses, but you never see Revelation 9:1 point directly to the second star of Revelation 8:10, 11?

If you truly know your Bible, you'd see that for yourself, but as I made the point clear, people tend to skip over or remain oblivious to the cross-references of their own Bibles. You have proven my point once again.

6 hours ago, Witness said:

You are thus comparing the fall of an anointed “star” from a heavenly position who becomes a false prophet, and applying its significant fall, to Christ;  just as the Watchtower has done.

falling down from heaven to earth is not demeaning the Christ whatsoever, mainly if context and understanding of the Strong's is in play here. Christ returns with the key to deal with Satan and lock him up so to speak, therefore due to this we can see that The Angel of the Abyss is not Satan, with the basic of logic someone can see this for themselves.

the Watchtower has nothing to do with this belief, and there is enough proof of this because even those who are not Jehovah's Witnesses believe this and applies context instead of accepting surface information, to which you are doing, in this sense, you are watering down Christ's kingship as if he is not going to do anything to the wicked when the Bible makes it clear God will destroy the wicked, and he can and will do this through his chosen Christ - Jesus, of whom he made King, of whom is spoken of to soon defeat and conquer the dragon himself.

6 hours ago, Witness said:

Dear SM, this is utterly demeaning to the reigning “Bright Morning Star” of Rev 22:16  Earlier I gave scriptures that relate the anointed ones to "stars".  

You did and you mixed in verses that do not equal to that and I pointed that out. That being said, you cannot try to avoid what the cross-references for Revelation 9:1 points to - if you want to fight against the Bible, I can tell you this - you cannot win a fight with the Word of God itself. So I am merely going by the references, nothing more.

Therefore, I have not demeaning anything whatsoever, granted with enough proof, Scriptural evidence and using actual references instead of mixing verses, when we are to teach and make disciples, we do not mislead them by mixing verses and hiding and or avoiding context, it isn't right.

Then again, some Christians do not like cross-references.

6 hours ago, Witness said:

The abyss is the dark state of “not perceiving”.  We can be part of it, just as the army that emerges from the state of “not perceiving”. 1 Pet 2:9; Eph 6:12; 5:8  It can be a tool of deceit by Satan, or representation of “binding up”, as an imprisonment that Christ used, when figuratively throwing Satan into that state of blindness – of not perceiving, for a symbolic “thousand years”.  Once released from being bound, Satan empowers the fallen star, false prophet to DECEIVE the remaining ones of the woman’s seed.   Rev 8:10-12; 12:4

Then your next problem is the fact that those who represent the Locust are not attacking God's people, but those of false religion with the gospel for a span of 5 months in terms of the lifespan of a Locust.

The abyss also consist of sin and death, and Jesus himself, when risen, spoke to the ones who are to be judged there, the spirits in question were the demons. God would never make use of demons to attack his own people, let alone those who are against him, nor would he ever give Satan such power to do so himself, the very reason why the Locust can be interpreted as those who speak truth against falsehood, for the truth spoken torments that of falsehood, so to speak.

Also, you do realize that just like the demons, Satan will also be imprisoned for that span of time also, that is literal, and after that he will be released, and eventually destroyed - to be met with eternal destruction, as the Bible says.

The second fallen star yes, however, the first one was responsible for sending him to the abyss in the first place. Therefore, you proved my point again whereas we know, when applying context, that the star of Revelation 9:1 isn't the same as the star in Revelation 8:10. and only one of these stars is referred to as the bright morning star in Revelation 22:16, which is in connection with Christ Jesus himself - as the cross-references proves.

6 hours ago, Witness said:

This army/Beast to come against the “saints”, belongs to Satan.  Rev 9:10,11; 13:1,2,4,7; 12:3

Satan isn't the angel of the abyss so the locust do not belong to him.

I will quote your own words because you agreed with me in your earlier response to which you stated:

I repeat, when Jesus bound Satan by “putting him in prison”, or binding his capability to deceive God’s people for a symbolic “thousand years”, he didn’t fall from heaven to do so. Rev 20:1

If you are going to pick a truth, to not change teams on occasion, the truth of the matter is the one who has the key, the angel of the abyss, is the Christ, the one you call Michael.

The saints are not attacked by the army of locust, they are targets of the wild beast and the false prophets whereas the locust in question are against the ones who are on God's side, they're not against God. Also you mentioned Revelation 13:1 regarding the land beast, that alone should show you the difference.

Also the beasts are not an army, there is a few of them that represent the powers of men in this world, for example This beast in question is the one mention that will wage war against and will kill (Revelation 11:7; 13:18), of whom it will fight and kill is very obvious.

6 hours ago, Witness said:

It is an army that God “sends” or allows Satan, who demands each of us to be “sifted”, to enact his delusion against each anointed and companions as wheat or weeds. Luke 22:31;  I’m repeating what I’ve said earlier, I believe. Joel 2:2,4,5,12,20,25-27; 2 Thess 2:9-12 

As stated before the locust are not on Satan's side, for they are the ones to be opponents of those of falsehood. The wild beast, however, are on Satan's side and will conquer and kill, even the holy ones of God.

You referring to this? Wormwood’s locust army is a military strategy hatched under both Satan and Wormwood’s direction; growing to ultimately restrain and torment the dwelling of God, as the the Beast from the Sea. Joel 2:1-5; 2 Thess 2:7; Rev 9:5,10; 13:1,5-7

That being said, only the verses in Joel makes reference to the army of locust and why such is in symbolic use in Revelation and what is drawn from the context, I do not see why you threw in 2 Thess. 2:9-12 when you do not even agree with 2 Thess 2:8.

6 hours ago, Witness said:

Many have felt the “sting” of this locust army that comes against the anointed ones. 

But the locust army is spoken of, in the Bible to go after the ones of false Christendom, nowhere you see in any verse in Revelation that they are against the chosen ones. You are confusing the locust for the Wild Beasts, for they can conquer, and they can kill.

6 hours ago, Witness said:

It judges them as unfit for the Kingdom of God, disfellowshipping or “killing” them for refusing to give devotion to the spirit-directed “image” of the Beast.  Rev 13:15   This army “stands” in the Temple of God (1 Cor 3:16,17; Rev 11:1-3,7) as the Man of Lawlessness.  Rev 13:18; 2 Thess 2:3,4  It tramples and replaces the anointed priesthood, wearing “crowns of something like gold, and their faces were like the faces of men”.   Rev 9:7; Rev 11:1,2; Dan 8:11; 11:36,37

The locust cannot judge, they simply when we understand the context, swarm to spread the gospel that is true, which is a tormenting to those of falsehood. Also the locust cannot kill, so that is another factor against you.

That being said, a bit ironic how you make reference to 1 Corinthians 3:17 when you do not believe that God can destroy even by means of his Son of whom he will send again soon. Also Revelation 11:1-3 and 7 is regarding the Two Witnesses.

You speak of not being deceived, but you push to justify that Satan is the angel of the abyss and think the 2 stars in question are the same. If you believe in not to mislead others, why do you do the very things of which you speak against? It's hypocritical and spiritually unsound.

6 hours ago, Witness said:

Who, in tandem, gives them the authority to do so?  Satan and “Wormwood” – the GB.  Matt 24:48-51

And yet their belief in who the angel of the abyss is, the one who has the key is not of wormwood, it is actually true, in fact, even before them, this was spoken of, but people are quick to identify the locust as demons hen in reality they are not, they symbolize those who are like an army, who speak the truth and like and army who takes sword into battle, they, the people, take the gospel into battle like a sword.

The only wormwood that you are sipping right now is the doctrine of mainstream Christendom regarding the angel of the abyss, not to mention ignoring the cross-references in an attempt to justify this accursed doctrine, let alone not aware of the trickery done by your own hand regarding Greek Strong's with occurrences.

If you are this mislead, it would take a long time for you to recover, and the fact that it shows by what you post proves it.

6 hours ago, Witness said:

Rev 19:3 

And? Your point?

God's Spoken Word starts at the very beginning of the Bible, Genesis chapter 1 i.e. "Let there be light,” and there was light..." That's elementary biblical knowledge that everyone knows. Also this verse, which points to Isaiah 34:10, has nothing to do with anything you had profess before.

6 hours ago, Witness said:

I know you want to teach me, and I truly believe it is done with sincerity, but it is also done as if you are the only man on earth who has Holy Spirit.

Like I said before, I am but a slave to the Christ and his God, and the truth is what I speak an the truth alone. It should not be a surprise to you when someone speaks incorrectly of a Christology, a Bible truth, historical truth, what have you, I will make the response, and this the obvious is with what is spoken of here as with the watering down of the Christ's kingship, this is something that has to be corrected.

That being said, I say to you, if you did have a portion of the Holy Spirit, you'd be going beyond the surface regarding the passage in question in this discussion, but clearly you have not, and show a disregard for the cross-references, which was not the first time, let alone the evident confusion of Greek Strong's and not realizing that with ALL Strong's there is occurrences regarding a word/words and or a form of a word, etc.

The things we have to be aware of, if not, I will be like how Prophet Isaiah was to the leaders of Judah with you when it comes to the truth.

Another thing is, you tend to confuse things in other verses, even mix them, example would be the verse in Exodus 12:23, of which you refereed to the destroyer here as Satan when in reality it was an angel sent by God, not Satan.

Do not fall on your own sword when it comes to the truth.

6 hours ago, Witness said:

 I do appreciate it when you give links to the meaning of scripture. 

And it should be noted to seek cross-references also, majority of Christendom tends to ignore such, especially Trinitarians.

6 hours ago, Witness said:

But what if, what if, you are the one who may be misled by certain concepts? 

the fact that my childhood consist of strict Bible study and research an the like, this is unlikely.

I haven't mislead anyone with any concepts because I hold the utmost respect to Hermeneutics and Textual Criticism when it comes to the Scriptures, when it comes to the study of Christendom as a whole and the Abrahamic Faiths, I hold true to what is taught and understand what is actually false and what is actually true. As time went on I have confused some things, an the only thing I tend to confuse were condexes and manuscripts, however what I speak of is correct and true despite getting the names of manuscripts mixed up.

And the fact that the culture of my own people forbids deception is another factor, for if you were raised to observe, recite and read the Bible daily, you are to understand it not 100%, but 200% or more so that you come to the conclusion with all the evidence and context in place. This also goes for the total respect of the Hebrew and Greek text and the Strong's, accompanied by the usage of occurrences, both normal and special ones, and the like.

That being said, everything I said, in this discussion alone is true, and I say this because this isn't the first time I discussed the angel of the abyss to those of mainstream Christendom.

7 hours ago, Witness said:

What if Jesus allows others who are anointed, to understand the true meaning of Revelation?  Is that such an impossibility?

Others have, but they have always been shot down by false teachers calling such ones heretics or false prophets, granted of how much influence and power the real false teachers have against those who profess what is true, this influences who the Abbadon in Revelations actually is outside the beef and beans of the core difference in the truth vs. falsehood (Those who believe One God that is the Father vs. those who believe God is Tirune), but even among both sides, the wormwood, the second star, has tainted the waters, which leads to discussions like this.

The chosen ones who are on Jesus' side and on God's side will do the research to figure out the truth regarding Revelation, especially who really is the locust and who is really the angel who has the key, and a list of other things and such ones know that Revelation is symbolical with only a small few things that is literal, such as the number of chosen ones who will reign with the Lord who is Christ.

It is only an impossibility if the truth is at times drowned out by falsehood, hence the army, the people of God who do anything and everything to speak of the truth in terms of the gospel and of the bible in the face of falsehood.

7 hours ago, Witness said:

Just sayin’

Well granted that such a thing is taking place now, or everything from mid-2015 to now, this can be seen, and false teachers are, in this sense, being tormented by true teachers, who speak the truth having their sword, the Bible, in hand in ore to do this.

For the Sword of Yah strikes harder than a sword of common man are against God.

selah; praise Yah.

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@Space Merchant

Back to the basics, with big letters for emphasis:

Abbaddon in Hebrew:

Ps 88:11 - "Is your love declared in the grave, your faithfulness in Destruction ?"

Job 26:6 - "The realm of the dead is naked before God; Destruction lies uncovered."

 Job 28:22 – "Destruction and Death say, “Only a rumor of it has reached our ears.”

Job 31:12 -  “It is a fire that burns to Destruction ; it would have uprooted my harvest.”

 Prov 15:11 - "Death and Destruction lie open before the LORD— how much more do human hearts!"

This is what you and the WT organization are implying by saying Jesus is Abaddon and angel/king of the abyss.  Rev 9:11  Death and Destruction.  Is this what you want? 

Jesus has a key – AUTHORITY, POWER – to the abyss because he has conquered DEATH.  Satan has a key – AUTHORITY, POWER – to the abyss, who brings DEATH upon us all unless we turn to Christ.

Heb 2:14 - Now since the children have flesh and blood in common, Jesus also shared in these, so that through his death he might destroy the one holding the power of death -- that is, the devil.

 Satan gave WORMWOOD, the falling star, a “KEY” – AUTHORITY, POWER – to poison the waters of truth with lies. Rev 8:11; 9:1

“A third of the waters turned bitter, and many people died from the waters that had become bitter.” Rev 8:10

The power of DEATH AND DESTRUCTION WAS GIVEN TO THE FALSE PROPHET, WORMWOOD.

If Jesus Christ was the angel of the abyss, why would it enter his mind to allow the Beast of Revelation 13:1 to “make war” with his priests? Rev 13:7  If one is King of a nation or realm, he rules over it.  You are saying that Jesus used his authority/key to the abyss to release the Beast of Rev 13:1 This is what you and Watchtower are suggesting by saying Jesus fell from heaven to release the locust army, which is the BEAST of Rev 13:1 and 11:7. 

“Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them.”  Rev 11:7

Do you know who this beast is?  THE MAN OF LAWLESSNESS.  Rev 13:18

2 Thess 2:3,4 – “Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.  He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.”

God's temple are the anointed ones, Christ’s priesthood – the “chosen ones” -  IF they stand up to the beast and “conquer” it with truth. THEN they will be sealed in the heavens.  Rev 9:4; 7:3,4

“And I saw what looked like a sea of glass glowing with fire and, standing beside the sea, those who had been victorious over the beast and its image and over the number of its name.  Rev 13:15-17

Going back to the abyss, what does the false prophet release? Because it isn’t Christ who releases it.    Rev 9:1  “She” gives freedom to the Beast/locust army/Man of Lawlessness to destroy/”make war” with the remaining ones of the woman’s seed – the saints who are not yet sealed.  She uses deception, by poisoned living waters with lies.   Rev 9:4; 13:2,7;12:17  

There are not two separate identities released from the abyss -  One from Christ as the locust/army and one from Satan - the Beast.  No. They both describe one entity.  Just as Wormwood is described as also a false prophet and a Harlot.  

The saints are in the Watchtower, and JWs know this, where the GB has given AUTHORITY/POWER to the elder body to “kill”, disfellowship,  any called anointed priest who gives testimony of Christ. Rev 13:4; 11:1-3,7; 12:11 Thus, it is the “Gentile” elder body that “stands” in the Temple of God as the Man of Lawlessness.  2 Thess 2:3,4; Rev 11:1,2; Matt 24:15

The anointed priests ARE the “living” Temple of God  1 Pet 2:9,10; 2 Cor 6:16

And you, as well as the GB, believe Jesus is the Destroyer and has released this army/Beast to come against his own priesthood.    

“The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all powersigns, and lying wonders10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.”  2 Thess 2:9,10

“Woe, you destroyer never destroyed, you traitor never betrayed! When you have finished destroying, you will be destroyed. When you have finished betraying, they will betray you.”  Isa 33:1

I’m not returning to this thread, SM, although I know you will do your best to unravel what I have said, and insist on saying Jesus Christ is the angel of the Abyss and King/Abaddon of the locust army/Beast.  Rev 9:11

Sad, indeed.

ăbaddôwn, ab-ad-done'; intensive from 

    Hello guest!
; abstract, a perishing; concrete, Hades:—destruction.

Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon – “place of destruction – abyss

Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.”  Rev 20:14

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, Witness said:

Back to the basics, with big letters for emphasis:

Ok.

4 hours ago, Witness said:

Abbaddon in Hebrew:

Ps 88:11 - "Is your love declared in the grave, your faithfulness in Destruction ?"

Job 26:6 - "The realm of the dead is naked before God; Destruction lies uncovered."

 Job 28:22 – "Destruction and Death say, “Only a rumor of it has reached our ears.”

Job 31:12 -  “It is a fire that burns to Destruction ; it would have uprooted my harvest.”

 Prov 15:11 - "Death and Destruction lie open before the LORD— how much more do human hearts!"

Know this, Abaddon appears 6 times in the Masoretic text of the Hebrew Bible, for Abaddon means destruction or "place of destruction", or the realm of the dead, and is accompanied by Sheol. You missed one in this response:

  • Proverbs 27:20 - Hades (Sheol) and Destruction (Abaddon) are never full; so the eyes of man are never satisfied.
4 hours ago, Witness said:

This is what you and the WT organization are implying by saying Jesus is Abaddon and angel/king of the abyss.  Rev 9:11  Death and Destruction.  Is this what you want? 

I am a Biblical Unitarian, and yes, it is what I believe because I take a serious consideration for context, hermenutics when it comes to the conclusion. It is known that Jehovah's Witnesses believe this, as do Methodist, as do several other Christian denominations, but to them they do not identify the angel in question to be Jesus, but Michael, not realizing that Jesus/Michael are one in the same.

Yes, Jesus is that one, the star, the one who has the key, the angel of the abyss for Revelation 9:1 points to the cross-references itself that refers to Christ Jesus, the one who is spoken of since Genesis that will defeat the serpent, the one who has been made King who will imprison the serpent, the one called Satan.

Jesus has this key, as with other keys, one of the keys of whom he gave, entrusted the disciples regarding the Kingdom, the other to death and Hades itself, and in regards to this one, the abyss, for the key in question was given to him and he is spoken as to having this key, and with it, he was able to seal Satan the Devil as the Bible states for 1,000 years, Satan will be released and eventually he will be destroyed - for good, along with the last of God's enemy mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15:26.

Death and Destruction you say? Didn't you yourself cite the follow verse 2 Thess. 2:8 regarding the fact that Jesus doing God's will be bringing to nothing His enemies?

Revelation 9:11 says the following:

They have as king over them the angel of the bottomless pit. His name in Hebrew is Abaddon, and in Greek he is called Apollyon.

Ironically enough, verse 11 cross-references Revelation 9:1-4 and 20:1-3, and we already know the verses in chapter 20, once again, points back to Revelation 22:16 - you cannot defeat the Bible, Witness, therefore being ignorant of the cross-references only shows that those, mainly you, of mainstream Christendom, do not apply context, nor apply the cross-references found in your own Bible itself, it is written, why not adhere to it? Clearly I do not ignore references or context.

You're asking me if I want death and destruction, all I can say is that death and destruction will only be met by those who are of lawlessness and wickedness, and Satan himself will share that same fate when Judgement has concluded and in the end, he will not be sealed away in an abyss, no, he will be destroyed, as 2 Thess. 1:9 points out

They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

For the cross-reference of this verse, 2 Peter 3:7, even tells you that judgement will come and a great destruction will be unleashed on to those who are ungodly - the wicked.

So the question that you didn't answer before, what will Jesus do when he returns a second time, his presence?

It is obvious and simply, God's Justice will be enacted through his Son (just as his grace in regards to Jesus' sacrifice, as with his purpose and will in terms of Jesus' ministry, etc.) the same will be done on God's Day, for Jesus does the Will of his Father, not of his own, and if the Father's Will consist of the Wicked to be destructed, it will happen, for God's Spoken Word is final, those of mankind who water down God's Spoken Word are kidding themselves in not knowing that God has not changed, he is the same God today as he was in the days of ancient Israel.

4 hours ago, Witness said:

Jesus has a key – AUTHORITY, POWER – to the abyss because he has conquered DEATH.  Satan has a key – AUTHORITY, POWER – to the abyss, who brings DEATH upon us all unless we turn to Christ.

Jesus has the key to the Abyss, Revelation 9:1-4 and Revelation 20:1-4 (1-7), this being the last and only record occurrence of "key" in the New Testament. The key that had been given to him, the key it is spoken of as him having, he used such to free those out of captivity, providing deliverance, with that same key he was able to open the abyss and put Satan there, sealing him there.

Jesus has the keys to the Kingdom and had entrusted Peter, in turn the disciples with said keys, Matthew 16:19, which results in the Church Structure, the Church teachings, and application of said teachings and disciplinary actions of the Church.

  • "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

Jesus has the keys to Hades, as Revelation 1:18 states, in addition, during the 1,000 year reign, Jesus will use these keys to free those from the pangs of death for with this key, Jesus conquered death and by means of this key, those asleep in death, the righteous and worthy ones who will receive the resurrection. We also know that Jesus did not have to confront Satan for the keys because the keys were never in Satan's possession to begin with, nor were the other keys.

  • and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades.

Nowhere in the Bible does it say that Satan has a key of any kind, this is an example of you adding to God's Word, granted with all occurrences for "key(s)" not ONE occurrence says that Satan has any key or keys to anything. Satan is spoken of to be the ruler of this world, an adversary of God, the one who influences, the one who opposes, the one who slanders and deceives the one who is against the Christ, even as going as far as to tempting the Christ himself and tried to get him to religious worship him as well as to commit suicide off of a battlement, and so forth, so we know Satan has control on those associated with the wild beast and the false prophets, but nowhere do we see, not even a single verse, that Satan has been given a key or is spoken of as to having a key, even symbolically.

Do not add to God's Word, Witness (Deuteronomy 4:2, John 10:34-35)

4 hours ago, Witness said:

Heb 2:14 - Now since the children have flesh and blood in common, Jesus also shared in these, so that through his death he might destroy the one holding the power of death -- that is, the devil.

And? Hebrews 2:14 conveys that Satan the Devil even has the means to cause death. It does not autmatcially means he can literal kill people, however, his spirit that commits to murderous intent is in the very world that he is the ruler of.

because of him, Satan, who had deceive our first mother, Eve and she believed him, resulting in Adam to also have a share in disobedience in God's face, both sin and death spread to all mankind as can be read in Romans 5:12 which reads:

  • Death in Adam, Life in ChristTherefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men[a] because all sinned—

Footnotes: Romans 5:12 The Greek word anthropoi refers here to both men and women; also twice in verse 18

In context, Satan the Devil has had the means to cause death, the very reason why Jesus refers to the Devil as a murderer in John 8:44.

Also all cross-references for Hebrews 2:14 (Genesis 3:15, Luke 10:18, John 8:44, 1 John 3:8, Revelation 12:9 and John 1:14).

4 hours ago, Witness said:

 Satan gave WORMWOOD, the falling star, a “KEY” – AUTHORITY, POWER – to poison the waters of truth with lies. Rev 8:11; 9:1

Satan never had a key to give, only the angel of the abyss was given a key and is spoken of as having the key to use to chain and seal the dragon.

Once again you are equally both Revelation 9:1 and 8:11 to be the same when they are clearly not the same stars.

You have one who is identified as the angel of the abyss and the other identified as wormwood - both are not the same. You know how silly that would said if we went by that logic to say that wormwood or Satan chained and hurled Satan into the abyss, it makes no sense.

Moreover, again, the cross-references from the Bible itself further proves, even provides evidence of the star in Revelation 9:1 is not the same star in Revelation 8:11, nor, as some are led to believe, the angels being the same, but they are not.

Plus you even agreed with me earlier when you stated the Jesus bounded Satan and put him in prison, indeed, the very same place where he is to be sealed away when those in captivity are freed - the abyss.

4 hours ago, Witness said:

If Jesus Christ was the angel of the abyss, why would it enter his mind to allow the Beast of Revelation 13:1 to “make war” with his priests? Rev 13:7  If one is King of a nation or realm, he rules over it.  You are saying that Jesus used his authority/key to the abyss to release the Beast of Rev 13:1 This is what you and Watchtower are suggesting by saying Jesus fell from heaven to release the locust army, which is the BEAST of Rev 13:1 and 11:7. 

Jesus is the angel of the abyss and no references regarding Revelation 9:1 points to Revelation 13:1, to which I explained to you earlier when speaking about the land beast. Jesus intent as being the angel of the abyss is to unleashed judgement on to God's adversary, Satan, thus sealing him away. After the 1,000 years, Satan will be released and obvious will be around to cause some trouble, only this time the second defeat of Satan (it can be counted as a 3rd for his other confrontation was a ware in heaven) will be his end.

Can you point out anywhere that I said Jesus will use the key to release the wild beast form the abyss? This I want to see hence your response: You are saying that Jesus used his authority/key to the abyss to release the Beast of Rev 13:1 This is what you and Watchtower are suggesting by saying Jesus fell from heaven to release the locust army, which is the BEAST of Rev 13:1 and 11:7. 

Me and the Watchtower? Clearly you have not been studying anyone else Christology but the Jehovah's Witnesses alone when this belief didn't originate with them whatsoever, which also proves the sheer ignorance of Theological studies on your part. Us Biblical Unitarian Christians are aware of what the angel of the abyss is and who it is who has the key and who is thrown into the abyss and so forth, this belief is profess by both sides of Christendom with only one side believing the angel in question to be Satan, that would be you and the Trinitarians, the other who believe the angel to be an Anti-Christ, while the others who do not identify Micheal as Jesus for the angel to be Micheal, however among this, the only true one is that Jesus is the angel who is to conquer over Satan.

Biblical evidence and references from the Bible itself and the cross-references from the Bible itself, even in physical copies furthers the evidence in the truth itself.

What you also fail to realize is that when Jesus dealt with the abyss, there was a specific order, of which I made mention of in my other response. the “star,” the “key,” the “pit,” the “smoke,” and the locusts regarding the symbolism of this 5th trumpet, how did you miss that?

The star is regarding the angel of the abyss. This same Angel has the key which is access to the abyss otherwise known as the bottomless pit. The pit in question has the locust being released from it, those who were in captivity, the same ones who will torment the unsealed, those who are of false Christendom, the great dragon will then be sealed there for 1,000 years and later released.

Why not those in Christendom who also believe the same thing? Jesus came out of heaven to the earth, in some translation is does say fall or descended, and I even exposed on you were mixing the occurrences in my last response to which I pointed out and I quote:

Quote

Your response:

The word here for “fall” is an entirely different Greek word. It, too, means to “descend”but

to descend from a higher place to a lower

A.                 to fall (either from or upon)

i.to be thrust down

B.                 metaph. to fall under judgment, came under condemnation

I.to descend from an erect to a prostrate position

 .                    to fall down

 .to be prostrated, fall prostrate

My Response:

You do realize if you scroll down on Blue letter it tells you what is in use, therefore, the fact that you miss this further proves my point.

Let's take the information from blue letter so it can be shown as how you made this error on your own accord.

You put in bold the following for  

  • which on Blue letter it points to the occurrences and it reads: . metaphorically: οὐ πίπτει ἐπί τινα ὁ ἥλιος, i. e. the heat of the sun does not strike upon them or incommode them, Revelation 7:16; (ἀχλύς καί σκότος, Acts 13:11 L T Tr WH); ὁ κλῆρος πίπτει ἐπί τινα, the lot falls upon one, Acts 1:20; φόβος πίπτει ἐπί τινα, falls upon or seizes one (Acts 19:17 L Tr); Revelation 11:11 Rec.; (τό πνεῦμα τό ἅγιον, Acts 10:44 Lachmann); πίπτω ὑπό κρίσιν, to fall under judgment, come under condemnation, James 5:12 (where Rec.st εἰς ὑπόκρισιν).

As we can see, we do not see Revelation 9:1 anywhere in hence the fact you put in bold  to justify something is both an error and is unfounded.

  • Now let's go to [A] whereas we see on Blue Letter it states the following: [A]. properly, to fall (either from or upon, equivalent to Latin incido, decido): ἐπί with the accusative of place, Matthew 10:29; Matthew 13:5,(Matthew 13:7),Matthew 13:8; Matthew 21:44 (T omits; L WH Tr marginal reading brackets the verse); Mark 4:5; Luke 8:6 (here T Tr WH κατέπεσεν), 8 Rec.; Revelation 8:10; εἰς τί (of the thing that is entered; into), Matthew 15:14; Matthew 17:15; Mark 4:7 (L marginal reading ἐπί); Luke 6:39, R G L marginal reading (but L text T Tr WH ἐμπεσοῦνται); Luke 8:8 G L T Tr WH (Luke 8:14; Luke 14:5 L T Tr WH); John 12:24; εἰς (upon) τήν γῆν, Revelation 6:13; Revelation 9:1; ἐν μέσῳ, with the genitive of the thing, Luke 8:7; παρά τήν ὁδόν, Matthew 13:4; Mark 4:4; Luke 8:5; to fall from or down: followed by ἀπό with the genitive of place, Matthew 15:27; Matthew 24:29 (here Tdf. ἐκ; Luke 16:21); Acts 20:9; followed by ἐκ with the genitive of place (Mark 13:25 L T Tr WH); Revelation 8:10; Revelation 9:1; equivalent to to be thrust down, Luke 10:18.

As we can see, the metaphorical occurrence for this word does not apply to Revelation 9:1 - at all. Perhaps you can fool someone who is a novice in Biblical Hermeneutics regarding Hebrew and Greek Strong's, but clearly you are dealing with someone who takes hermeneutics seriously - even that of the Strong's itself.

So I ask you this, why are you trying to justify metaphorical on to Revelation 9:1? The fact that you did that further proves my point of how some folks need to learn the elementary basics in Strong's, in this regard, that website alone conspired against you in this case.

Here is the link and I suggest you learn about these occurrences (

    Hello guest!
) instead of mixing them up, you can mix Bible verses and be called for it, but when you mix Strong's, it is a Hermeneutical violation.

That being said this was a dead giveaway: metaph. to fall under judgment, came under condemnation as with the equivalents.

Here we see you trying to throw into the verse a metaphorical occurrence of the Strong's when Revelation 9:1 makes no mention of any metaphorical fall or descending and I will repost it here so you can see it clearly and for others to see as well as to what I am pointing out and the violation of Strong's on your part.

And no, the Wild Beast that ascends out of the abyss or the earth is not of Jesus's design nor would such cross his mind and if you were aware, the wild beast in question is already in effect, for I will even quote myself:

the second beast that rises out of the earth. This land beast has 2 horns like a lamb and it speaks like a dragon. It claims to be a Christian but it is not. It collects and colonizes nations and exploits and it is present along with the first beast. 

In addition, this one rose out of the abyss. Both of these wild beasts in the end. the image of the beast and influence the rulers of the earth will eventually gather for God's Day, the battle of Armageddon. The two beasts will also defeated by Christ and hurled into Gehenna, the Lake of Fire as mentioned in Revelation 19:18-20. The Wild Beast, otherwise refereed to as a Land Beast is of Satan’s design, which is regarding end times, Satan himself has not been imprisoned yet, he will be during the 1,000 year reign. (Revelation 13:1; Daniel 7:2, 3, 17) This beast pretty much directs people to follow the first beast.

Again, the ones that represent the Locust do not side with Satan, only the false prophets and the wild beasts. For if the army of Locust was indeed on Satan's side, they'd be tormenting God's people instead of false Christendom, and that would factor in no mention of the gospel whatsoever. The Locust represent those in captivity. Notice how it says nothing of those who symbolize the locust to harm or confront anyone with the seal of God on them, granted the Seal of God means  to group of people who have the seal of God, and thus His protection, during the tribulation.

4 hours ago, Witness said:

Do you know who this beast is?  THE MAN OF LAWLESSNESS.  Rev 13:18

That is pretty much what I pointed in to my other response. and these same men of lawlessness will indeed be destroyed by the sword of the Christ, by means of God's Justice and like Satan, such ones will be me with eternal destruction.

Other than that, like I said, this beast claims to be Christian when it is not, and it directs people to worship the first beast, unifying the people in order to do so, an example of this is what took place just days ago in Texas.

4 hours ago, Witness said:

2 Thess 2:3,4 – “Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.  He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.”

Yes - and such ones will be destroyed, you will seek them out, but they will be gone, for they will be gone just like the things in today's day and age, and onward God's promise will soon be accomplished.

4 hours ago, Witness said:

God's temple are the anointed ones, Christ’s priesthood – the “chosen ones” -  IF they stand up to the beast and “conquer” it with truth. THEN they will be sealed in the heavens.  Rev 9:4; 7:3,4

God's temple also consist of the people, as mentioned in our last discussion and of whom it consist of, and it can be understood by the heirs mentioned by Apostle Paul in Galatians.

4 hours ago, Witness said:

“And I saw what looked like a sea of glass glowing with fire and, standing beside the sea, those who had been victorious over the beast and its image and over the number of its name.  Rev 13:15-17

And? I believe I pointed this out in my other response also, perhaps it would be wise to explain than quote.

4 hours ago, Witness said:

Going back to the abyss, what does the false prophet release? Because it isn’t Christ who releases it.    Rev 9:1  “She” gives freedom to the Beast/locust army/Man of Lawlessness to destroy/”make war” with the remaining ones of the woman’s seed – the saints who are not yet sealed.  She uses deception, by poisoned living waters with lies.   Rev 9:4; 13:2,7;12:17  

The Angel of the Abyss is the Christ, in Revelation 9:1 points to 20:1-4 and 22:16, which in turn refer to the Christ, why are you denying the same cross-references found in most Bible translations? The small letters and footnotes are there for a reason another example here of you remaining ignorant to the fact that cross-references is suppose to be considered, cross-references are vital. If you can point out what wormwood is, why avoid the very fact that Revelation 9:1 is a direct references to the bright morning star mentioned in 22:16?

You are picking cherries here, my friend. The Bible pretty much defeats you in this resolve you are professing.

You speak of deception, yet you were the one to identified the destroyer in Exodus 12:23 as Satan when the Bible tells you it is an Angel from God. So I ask you, who is really drinking from the poisoned waters, in this sense? With cross-references, one can see this for themselves, but here and like this one, you are missing context and references purposely to justify something of which you cannot prove when the evidence stacks up against you in this regard.

That being said, Revelation 9:4 points to Revelation 7:2, 3. I do not see why you are now trying to mix verses and compare 9:4 to Revelation 13:2,7;12:17.

Here is what 2 and 3 says:

[2] Then I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, with the seal of the living God, and he called with a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm earth and sea, [3] saying, “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.”

So according to you and the obvious mixing of verses, Angels out of heaven on to the earth are beasts now? For you did say this before mentioning those verses: She uses deception, by poisoned living waters with lies.

Now, Revelation 13 as a whole is regarding the Two Witnesses.

4 hours ago, Witness said:

There are not two separate identities released from the abyss -  One from Christ as the locust/army and one from Satan - the Beast.  No. They both describe one entity.  Just as Wormwood is described as also a false prophet and a Harlot. 

One entity? The locust cannot kill, the beast can kill, the locust are to torment false Christendom, the beast are to deceive, the locust were in captivity, the beast was of Satan's design.

They are not of one entity or this oneness claim you are professing.

Jesus had the key and when the abyss was opened, those who represent the locust had been delivered, Satan is tossed into and sealed away for 1,000 years after that. And you are again trying to equal the stars when you could not even prove where in the Greek text Satan was given a key, and you later contradicted yourself to even saying, shifting your belief that Jesus did in fact bound Satan and imprisoned him, where? The Abyss.

Do not confuse the two when the context is enough evidence to refute your claim.

As for the last bit about wormwood, this is something you have gotten correct thus far, however the false ones are of the Harlot, and the Harlot herself is an enemy of God's people, and like Satan, will do everything to stop them, for she would not avoid those for God, and she will persecute and kill them whereas those who are the army and or swarm, they will continue to profess the truth forward, which irritates those of Babylon, in this sense, torments them.

4 hours ago, Witness said:

The saints are in the Watchtower, and JWs know this, where the GB has given AUTHORITY/POWER to the elder body to “kill”, disfellowship,  any called anointed priest who gives testimony of Christ. Rev 13:4; 11:1-3,7; 12:11 Thus, it is the “Gentile” elder body that “stands” in the Temple of God as the Man of Lawlessness.  2 Thess 2:3,4; Rev 11:1,2; Matt 24:15

Read Matthew chapter 16 regarding what our Lord, Christ Jesus entrusted the Church, for you have to recognize why Church Expelling exists, excommunication, shunning and or church ties being cut, and read further as to how and when Paul put such into application, as did others, even the students of the apostles. There is a read as it can be said Jesus gave the church abilities to bind and loosen. You speak of 8 mere men alone when you do not take into account of your own who is against God's Order and does not adhere to anything of the apostolic age. Other than that is is unheard of of any Restorationist Christian, be it a organized group or a sole male or female follower to adhere to lawlessness. You have to have valid proof of this when people are aware of the Christology of the common Restorationist or Restorationism as a whole, examples like God's order, per our last conversation whereas the view of Restorationist as with True Christians know regarding Creation, the one you follow, on the other hand, considers a holy man speaks in opinions and not of God's Word.

That being said, Christians are under the New Covenant, of Spiritual Israel, to not recognize of what that even means, and as to what that signifies, only shows that you have a lot more studying to do instead of struggling to justify something of which you cannot prove and the constant mixing of verses and avoiding of hermeneutics and context is obvious.

4 hours ago, Witness said:

The anointed priests ARE the “living” Temple of God  1 Pet 2:9,10; 2 Cor 6:16

If this was the case, you'd be adhering to them 100% as with those before them, but you do not. Chosen ones take the bible into FULL consideration, even the cross-references, but here we see that when cross-references are in use, you avoid the evidence professed.

Chosen ones are also aware the situation with Hezekiah and Assyria, as with the Angel that had slain the firstborns in Egypt in Moses' Day in order for Pharaoh to release God's people who were in captivity.

That being said, the Chosen ones, as with those who make up the church are of God's Temple, and they are God's people, all of them of Spiritual Israel.

4 hours ago, Witness said:

And you, as well as the GB, believe Jesus is the Destroyer and has released this army/Beast to come against his own priesthood.  

As I have said for the last several times. the locust and the beast are two different things. One kills, the other does not. One was in captivity, the other was of Satan's design, one gives the truth, the other gives falsehood.

Can you show me anywhere that I believe that the locust and the beast will target God's people? Because last time I checked, I mentioned time and time again with biblical proof, mind you, that the locust will be those who are against false Christendom. You on the other hand, tried trickery by mixing verses that do not even cross-references to each other i.e. you speaking of God talking about his Son, Jesus when the verse you cited only shows Jesus speaking, not God.

You even proved it for me when you cited 2 Thess 2:8.

God is going to destroy the wicked and the one he has anointed as a King will be doing just that. The wicked will be no more, and nowhere have I stated that the locust was going to destroy God's people.

As it is evident know, you are stumbling on your own words and do not pay any mind to evidence made against you in refutation.

That being said, I believe that you need to study Christendom a bit more if you think only Watchtower believe this also, you've proven yourself to have a one tracked mind, in this sense.

I have proven who has the key, you only attempted to add to the text who has the key, Witness.

4 hours ago, Witness said:

“The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all powersigns, and lying wonders10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.”  2 Thess 2:9,10

Why skip verse 8? Remember, you were the one who cited this in an attempt to mix verses.

Ill quote it for you

And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming.

As per my last question - what do you think the Christ, who is of Kingship and who sits on the throne of David will do to the wicked?

The answer is quite obvious. The good will prosper, but the bad will perish.

4 hours ago, Witness said:

“Woe, you destroyer never destroyed, you traitor never betrayed! When you have finished destroying, you will be destroyed. When you have finished betraying, they will betray you.”  Isa 33:1

You said this already on the last page and I will even quoted you

On 10/21/2018 at 12:57 PM, Witness said:

“Woe to youdestroyer, you who have not been destroyed! Woe to you, betrayer, you who have not been betrayed! When you stop destroying, you will be destroyed; when you stop betraying, you will be betrayed.”  Isa 33:1

My response to you:

Quote

"Woe to you, destroyer, you who have not been destroyed! Woe to you, betrayer, you who have not been betrayed! When you stop destroying, you will be destroyed; when you stop betraying, you will be betrayed." Isa 33:1

Isaiah 33:1 [part A] points to 2 Kings 18:13 and Isaiah 10:15 while [part B] points to Isaiah 10:12 and Nahum 3:7.

Isaiah 33:1-14 is titled in outline Distress and Help (all the way through to verse 24). as The proud and false destroyer justly reckoned with for all his fraud, violence and bloodshed, but we have our righteous God deals with such ones who do such things. Those who by faith humbly wait for God, shall find him or herself gracious to them; as the day, so let the strength be.

Prophet Isaiah addressed who the "Destroyer" in this passage/verse. For he speaks here about Assyria. At the peak of its power, this aggressive nation appears to be undefeated, for they are very violent and commit acts of bloodshed has already been addressed, hence they are the Destroyer that destroys, in this sense, for we know what Assyria is capable of, mainly in those days. This nation was the one responsible for ravaging the cities of Judah, even stripping the house of God of everything, down to wealth and resources, by doing so with a total disregard at heart, hence what is read in 2 Kings 18:14-16 and 2 Chronicles 28:21, we can throw in Isaiah 10:5 for fun here too - "Like Nimrod a mighty hunter before the Lord [Yahweh/Jehovah]." (Genesis 10:9). However, they were not the "Destroyer" for long, for that same passage of which you quoted tells you they will be destroyed – a fulfilling of prophecy is to those faithful, as declared by Prophet Isaiah.

Are there two Destroyers, Satan and Jesus?

1 Corinthians 10:7-10, this passage is about Apostle Paul’s focus on those of Israel who succumb to murmuring and putting God to the test, and the "Destroyer" here is regarding God’s messenger sent to destroy – that is, if you take into account the context of the references.

Isaiah 33:1 or chapter 33 in general is regarding the "Destroyer" (The Assyrian/Assyria). Who in turn is eventually destroyed by another, an Angel (Angel of Death also known as a Destroyer).

Are WT’s spiritual leaders so illiterate that they cannot see WHO the Destroyer really is?

Technically they are aware of who is a Destroyer, especially in the verses above granted by what they in their information, which is on par with the view of the teachings in this sense, regarding the Destroyer.

Jesus came to save, not destroy. Don’t you think it is quite contradictory to believe Jesus...

What do you think he is going to do with the demons and the wicked? After all when he had risen his words to the spirits in prison was indeed one that sticks (1 Peter 3:19–20, 2 Peter 2:4, Jude 6).

And it should be known to you by now that Jesus does the Will of his Father, who is God. So if God says he is going to destroy the wicked and those of lawlessness, Jesus will enact the Will of his Father in this regard, for he didn't come the first time to do his own Will, but the Will of the one who sent him (John 5:30, 35, 36, 14:10).

So if God sends Jesus to destroy the wicked, Jesus will do just that because he is God's representative, the one of whom God made Lord and Christ, the one of whom God made superior to the angels, the one of whom God made chief of his angelic army.

If you stumble, people will see it.

4 hours ago, Witness said:

I’m not returning to this thread, SM, although I know you will do your best to unravel what I have said, and insist on saying Jesus Christ is the angel of the Abyss and King/Abaddon of the locust army/Beast.  Rev 9:11

That is because he is, if the Bible cross-references point to it, then it is biblical true and anything from the Bible I profess and I consider both context and hermeneutics as key to the conclusion of a verse and or passage, unlike you, I do not mix verses around to justify something.

After all, you said that Satan was the angel of the Abyss and later on stated that Jesus bounded him and imprisoned him, you are shifting believes when you do not even realize it, which is evident to you committing a violation of Strong's confusing blindness with smoke or trying to use the metaphorical version of "fall" when even blue letter does not even state that.

I will tell you again, as with all discussions with you, READ YOUR BIBLE and read into the cross-references instead of adding to God's Word.

4 hours ago, Witness said:

Sad, indeed.

It isn't sad because I only speak the truth, and nothing but that, even if it means being strict about it, in the same sense Prophet Isaiah was with the leaders of Judah, constantly repeating the same thing and being strict with them also.

If you want sadness, I can point to this, you assuming, even claiming that God somehow allowed Satan to do his bidding, when no such thing is mentioned in the verse, yet here we see you pointing to that

On 10/27/2018 at 10:40 AM, Witness said:

Your view is physical, not spiritual.  Whatever damage is done to humans who are judged by Christ as not worthy of the Kingdom, is at the hand of the Destroyer, Satan. God removes His protection, and Satan steps in. Exod 12:23 

To which I didn't refute, I confuted an stated:

Quote

No, my view is always spiritual, never have I applied man's understanding when I have been against it for years, as with my disdain for the mainstream Christendom and it's accursed teachings, the watering down of God's Word, if you will.

How did Satan step in at Exodus 12:13 when it was God who sent an Angel (clearly not Satan) do exact judgement? Be very careful of the bitter water, Witness.

The verse even tells you

For the Lord [YHWH] will pass through to strike the Egyptians, and when he sees the blood on the lintel and on the two doorposts, the Lord [YHWH] will pass over the door and will not allow the destroyer to enter your houses to strike you.

The Destroyer here was an Angel, in some translations, it will say the Angel of Death.

For example the GNT will say: When the LORD goes through Egypt to kill the Egyptians, he will see the blood on the beams and the doorposts and will not let the Angel of Death enter your houses and kill you.

God would never, or would it ever cross his mind to send or allow Satan to do such an action, nowhere in the Bible was Satan the Devil under Shaliach Principle, for he is God's Adversary, let alone any of the spirit beings who follow him because they have been banish from being in the presence of God (Matthew 8:28, 29; Luke 4:33, 34, James 2:19).

The same Angel of Death is later found in Scripture to save a follower of God from the Assyrians, as stated before.

If you think it was Satan that was this angel in Exodus 12:23, it is clear as to what kind of understanding you adhere to.

That being said, I suggest you re-read the passage of God choosing Moses to get his people out of the captivity of the Egyptians.

The truth always prevails, but you allowing your emotion and feelings go into the text in an attempt to water down Jesus' kingship is troubling.

I suggest, I encourage you to read the Scriptures thoroughly, re-learn about Moses if you think Satan had a hand in the plagues, study it.

4 hours ago, Witness said:

ăbaddôwn, ab-ad-done'; intensive from 

    Hello guest!
; abstract, a perishing; concrete, Hades:—destruction.

You may want to re-check Blue Letter again and check out the 6 occurrences of Abaddon in the Hebrew Text - I do not see Hades mention anywhere from the link you have, which is this one: 

    Hello guest!

What you are looking for is this: 

    Hello guest!

And perhaps this time, not only look at the Strong's but take a look at the occurrences if it is normal, metaphorical, special, unique, etc.

4 hours ago, Witness said:

Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon – “place of destruction – abyss

Perhaps it would be wise to tell me something I do not know because last time the Lexicon was used, you didn't agree with it, in terms of Interlinear Translations, but here we now see that you are using it, learning even.

4 hours ago, Witness said:

Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.”  Rev 20:14

And guess what is cross-references for Hades? 1 Corinthians 15:26 and 2 Thess 1:9.

Take all things into consideration - even cross-references found in the very Bible itself, therefore go about Spiritual Understanding an not Man's Understanding, or how you put it, Physical Understanding.

Your Christ will be coming to destroy the wicked and save his people, know that, for the bible speaks of such.

For the God of your King will do this by means of the Christ, and regarding the wicked, he speaks, and even his own who dwelled on the earth speaks this:

He will bring back on them their iniquity and wipe them out for their wickedness; the LORD [YHWH] our God will wipe them out.

You shall seek those who contend with you, but you shall not find them; those who war against you shall be as nothing at all.

In just a little while, the wicked will be no more; though you look carefully at his place, he will not be there.

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@Space Merchant It is also said even the demons will be hurled into the abyss also. I don't remember the passage on the top of my head.

It wouldn't make sense for them to come out of imprisonment either, and the fact the locust are those who are against false religon. 

Someone briefly talked about this today.

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6 hours ago, Equivocation said:

@Space Merchant It is also said even the demons will be hurled into the abyss also. I don't remember the passage on the top of my head.

It wouldn't make sense for them to come out of imprisonment either, and the fact the locust are those who are against false religon. 

Someone briefly talked about this today.

Look at Matthew 8:28-34, Mark 5:1-20 and Luke 8:26-39 regarding demons being expelled into swines aka pigs, the unclean animal.

3 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

I am O.K. with whatever happens except if when the gates of the Abyss are opened, out pops Jimminy Cricket, and Caleb and Sophia.

If they are among the chosen ones. Now I imagine a Cricket going after the Pope of the Vatican regarding Bible truth, non-stop.

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