Questions about instructions given to elders regarding accusations of child sexual abuse

[Guest Nicole]

I just read that the Spanish organization "Abusos TJ" has sent a letter to the Ministry of the Interior on Wednesday to urge him to investigate the alleged cases of sexual abuse that have been concealed for years from the different congregations in Spain of the Jehovah's Witnesses. And the news shows this photo of the instructions given to the elders

If these instructions are true, my question is what Bible base have these instructions? And why not inform the elders of the new congregation about a person who could be a danger to the community? 

[Evacuated]

43 minutes ago, Nicole said:

what Bible base have these instructions?

1Cor.14:40 would seem to cover any instructions on procedures in congregational matters.

45 minutes ago, Nicole said:

why not inform the elders of the new congregation about a person who could be a danger to the community? 

This doesn't seem to address the specific issue as sharing the information is not prohibited in the instruction. More relevant would be "why is legal  advice and direction required prior to sharing with another congregation information regarding those accused of child sexual abuse (established or not)?

[John Houston]

This subject is dark. Because the person talked about is accused. Even if true what they have done, before found out, they are guilty. What a spot to be in. Like being a black person. So they are to be followed from now on shadowed because they are accused of this. Can you sense the reaction of telling people of their presence openly, of just being accused? Being black and stopped and frisked for no apparent reason other than my skin color, this person outed why? For only an accusation, since the writing states established or not. Man, what a way to live. It would be hard enough if it was true, convicted and disfellowshipped, but just being accused, wow. Who would want to live in that limbo. I do daily, I know how that person feels. The new congregation needs not to know yet. Only if I have been tried and true. But on accusation alone, no, that ain't right, humanly right for anyone. We have gotten to sensitive and police everything, calling nine one one on people at the drop of a hat.

[Anna]

18 hours ago, Nicole said:

And why not inform the elders of the new congregation about a person who could be a danger to the community? 

I don't see anything in those instructions that prohibit the elders from informing the new congregation. All it says is to inform the legal department first. The pertinent question is what kind of direction do the elders receive back from the legal department.....

I just realised @Gone Away gave a similar answer....

[Anna]

7 hours ago, John Houston said:

This subject is dark. Because the person talked about is accused. Even if true what they have done, before found out, they are guilty. What a spot to be in. Like being a black person. So they are to be followed from now on shadowed because they are accused of this. Can you sense the reaction of telling people of their presence openly, of just being accused? Being black and stopped and frisked for no apparent reason other than my skin color, this person outed why? For only an accusation, since the writing states established or not. Man, what a way to live. It would be hard enough if it was true, convicted and disfellowshipped, but just being accused, wow. Who would want to live in that limbo. I do daily, I know how that person feels. The new congregation needs not to know yet. Only if I have been tried and true. But on accusation alone, no, that ain't right, humanly right for anyone. We have gotten to sensitive and police everything, calling nine one one on people at the drop of a hat.

Kind of sucks doesn't it, if the accused is actually innocent. Until there is proof, I don't think the police can do anything either. The person can only be put on a sexual predator registry only if they are convicted, otherwise no. I think in a congregationally un-established case it would be good to hand the matter over to the police, since they have better means for investigation at their disposal. But I always say there is no smoke without a fire. And most children do not make things like this up. The problem is the victims tend to speak up when they are adults, and who knows what kind of ulterior motive can there be behind an accusation.....

There is no doubt  that false allegations do happen.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_allegation_of_child_sexual_abuse

 

[Srecko Sostar]

On 10/27/2018 at 7:04 AM, Nicole said:

If these instructions are true, my question is what Bible base have these instructions? And why not inform the elders of the new congregation about a person who could be a danger to the community? 

.....and to make warning to membership of congregation and local "worldly" community about such ones? 

[JOHN BUTLER]

Um, seems we are back to square one. All part and parcel as to why I left. Not just the actual abuse but how it isn't dealt with. 

In my opinion ALL Child Abuse accusations should be handed over to the Police immediately, and Social Services / Children's Welfare should be involved if a child is in danger.

Congregations should be told that if a child or adult makes an accusation then the Police and authorities will be informed directly. That would give those making accusations advanced warning and it would leave it in their hands to make accusation or not, removing the problem of a case mentioned earlier on another topic where by Elders were moaned at for reporting it. And if it's a child making the accusation that would mean that it is happening right now (not in the past) so immediate attention is needed. 

So, now it is Spain that is reporting Child Abuse in the JW Org. I hadn't heard of this before. We are getting closer to what I've said before IT'S EARTHWIDE.  I'm hoping that by the end of this year all countries will be reporting any abuse of any kind within the JW org.  But there are some countries that will have more of a problem of course, where women and children are treated poorly generally. 

We now have :-

Spain, Netherlands, Australia, America, Canada and UK.

If anyone has any news of other countries involved I would like to have information please.  I've started to write details in a book for my own information as I find it difficult to retain it all in my head. 

Are the GB still saying it's a 'few apostates telling lies' ? 

( Special message for S. M.  I am only interested in what is happening within the JW Org earthwide )

[JOHN BUTLER]

31 minutes ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

I believe the Watchtower is making adjustments as the laws are changed. This reminds me of the difficulties that exist by the frequent adjustment in-laws that are made without a proper utilization of those laws.

This world is quickly becoming confused by the weight of its own destructive ways. Instead of focusing on one good law, they instead make every effort to satisfy the public outcry.

This is the case for Spain, and all over the world. While Spain made significant changes after 1978, the Catholic Church has remained strong. This includes the ecclesiastic clergy privilege that has become a common theme for governments.

http://tiny.cc/3uvi0y

Facultad de Abstención has been the topic in Spain. Unless the whole world agrees together to remove a privilege that stems millennia by the Catholic Faith, it will continue to be a problem for most countries.

One good option for governments to consider is being overlooked. Instead of making it mandatory for institutions to report child abuse claims, which many consider being a good proposition, it would be better to have the laws changed to automatically have a victim direct themselves by law to the proper authority in order to make each government responsible for their failures or success with their own laws.

This would mean, if a person goes into a church for spiritual guidance, the clergy can simply reject this person and forward them to the proper authorities by a constituted law put in place by the government. The church would forward the complaint and keep a registry of people coming in for guidance. No clergy discussion no clergy privilege.

This would ensure where the failure or success lies. Some steadfast older parishioners might disagree. In Spain, the young populist has the advantage. This should also satisfy those that make adjustments to legal standings such as the posted article 20-21 of the Watchtower.

 

Are you saying JW's should go straight to the Police or outside authorities ? 

If so, many have said they were told NOT to go to the Police or outside authorities. And many have said they feared being disfellowshipped if they did go to those outside of the Org. That seems to have been at least 50% of the problem in past cases. 

[Anna]

11 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

In my opinion ALL Child Abuse accusations should be handed over to the Police immediately, and Social Services / Children's Welfare should be involved if a child is in danger.

Yes, I believe so too. I believe the PARENT should go to the police first thing, and then to the elders second. However, if the parent goes to the elders first, the elders are not always mandated reporters. Regardless, some parents do not wish to involve the police at all! (that goes for non JW parents too). It very much depends on who the perpetrator is and what the circumstances are. Not every parent wants to rush to the police or if their 9 year old daughter tells them senile grandpa was a little too touchy feely the other day. Some parents opt for keeping granddaughter out of reach of grandpa. I feel a parent who is well connected to their child, knows their child, communicates with their child and watches their child will instinctively know when to report someone. Unfortunately, not all parents are like that.

 

[Anna]

10 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

many have said they were told NOT to go to the Police or outside authorities. And many have said they feared being disfellowshipped if they did go to those outside of the Org. That seems to have been at least 50% of the problem in past cases. 

I have heard that too, but it seems it wasn't many, but a few. Some elders were acting on a wrong interpretation of "one should not take another brother to court". Of course that was never talking about crime such as murder or sexual abuse. And some elders took it upon themselves to say that it should not to be taken outside the congregation so as not to sully Jehovah's name. Which was wrong, and was never an instruction from Bethel. Also, taking the matter to the police was NEVER a reason for disfellowshipping. If someone was disfellowshipped it was because of unrepentant gossip and slander.

[JOHN BUTLER]

18 minutes ago, Anna said:

I have heard that too, but it seems it wasn't many, but a few. Some elders were acting on a wrong interpretation of "one should not take another brother to court". Of course that was never talking about crime such as murder or sexual abuse. And some elders took it upon themselves to say that it should not to be taken outside the congregation so as not to sully Jehovah's name. Which was wrong, and was never an instruction from Bethel. Also, taking the matter to the police was NEVER a reason for disfellowshipping. If someone was disfellowshipped it was because of unrepentant gossip and slander.

Anna, here we have a technicality. 

My comment was that many 'feared they would be disfellowshipped if they went outside the org'..  Some have actually said that.

You said that , 'taking the matter to the police was NEVER a reason for disfellowshipping'. But Elders could find another reason to use to disfellowship said person, and /or a person could well be shunned by the congregation if the congregation found out that said person had gone to the police. 

I was threatened with being disfellowshipped as I've mentioned before, and that was just for telling the truth.  The Elder called it slander. 

It's a shame to be back on this subject really, does none of us any good. 

[JOHN BUTLER]

20 minutes ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

I have not been made aware of a case where someone was disfellowshipped by the organization for contacting the police first. I cannot see the percentage given to be a credible survey. In the past, as it is in the present. Authorities are forcing an issue that is considered by many overlooked. I don’t recall where the Watchtower has demanded an individual with an internal conflict be forced to speak with a body of Elders first. This, of course, eliminates the middleman. Many people speculate with past best practices of the Watchtower is still not enough to satisfy their activism in the present.

If my house was being burglarized, what good would it do to contact an Elder first? If I was being abused, what good would it do to contact a body of Elders, first if the Elders advise is going to be to contact the police? There are times where a body of Elders contact the main office to clarify legal issues they may not be clear on. The Watchtower does encourage such action.

Activists see this as sinister rather than logical.

The government now insist every institution, report. I believe if a victim is stopped at the door and redirected to the proper authority by law, this will curve many of the issues society has questioned.

The liability will lie with the victim and the government. If someone is falsely accused, the liability lies between the accused, victim and the government.

I'll just say this to you Billy.... At least Anna believes some of what I say and agrees with me on somethings. Whereas you just put your head in the sand, call all victims liars (by your comments) and think the Org is squeaky clean. 

I really don't care what you 'have not been made aware of', you are not important to me, whereas the Victims of Child Abuse are important to me.  

I'll tell you the same as i told Anna. if the elders want to disfellowship someone they will create a 'reason' to do it. 

And one false reason they use is that a person is 'Causing a division in the congregation' which could mean anything..