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Srecko Sostar

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Confusing and controversial ideas and perceptions we can find about God, life and death, feelings, acts/deeds of human and gods.

 

HOW GOD FEELS ABOUT LIFE

3. What did Jehovah do when Cain killed Abel?

3 The Bible teaches us that our life and the lives of other people are precious to Jehovah. For example, when Cain—Adam and Eve’s son—was very angry with his younger brother Abel, Jehovah warned Cain that he needed to control his anger. But Cain didn’t listen, and he became so angry that he “assaulted his brother Abel and killed him.” (Genesis 4:3-8) Jehovah punished Cain for murdering Abel. (Genesis 4:9-11) So anger and hatred are dangerous because they can make us become violent or cruel. A person who is like that cannot have everlasting life. (Read1 John 3:15.) To please Jehovah, we must learn to love all people.—1 John 3:11, 12. - 

    Hello guest!

 

On other side we can find this in Bible, directly as words inspired to be written by Almighty God.  

 

 

  7   Remember, O Jehovah,What the Eʹdom·ites said on the day Jerusalem fell:“Tear it down! Tear it down to its foundations!”

    Hello guest!
 

    Hello guest!
 O daughter of Babylon, who is soon to be devastated,
    Hello guest!
Happy will be the one who rewards you With the treatment you inflicted on us.
    Hello guest!

    Hello guest!
 Happy will be the one who seizes your children And dashes them against the rocks.
    Hello guest!
 -  
    Hello guest!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Confusing and controversial ideas and perceptions we can find about God

Like this?

De.32:22: "For my anger has kindled a firethat will burn to the depths of the Grave, and it will consume the earth and its produce and will set ablaze the foundations of mountains."

Or like this?

Pro.28:5 "Men given to badness cannot understand judgment, but those who are seeking Jehovah can understand everything."

 

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10 hours ago, Josué2 said:

Bonjour la bible doit être lue dans son contexte et il ne faut pas sortir un verset pour essayer de la comprendre.

Which means, when translated, something like: Hello, the Bible should be read in context and one should not try to understand it by taking a verse out of context.

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Et oui car autrement on peut lui faire dire n'importe quoi.

(2 Timothée 3:15-17) [...] . 16 Toute l’Écriture est inspirée de Dieu et utile pour enseigner, pour réprimander, pour redresser les choses, pour former à une conduite juste, 17 pour que l’homme de Dieu soit pleinement qualifié, parfaitement équipé pour toute œuvre bonne.
 

 

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Pour se calmer, il est également très important de ne pas oublier ses relations avec le Créateur. Jéhovah ne regarde pas d’un œil favorable ceux qui se réjouissent du malheur de leurs ennemis, car pareille attitude reflète un esprit vengeur. Or, dans Proverbes 24:17, 18, nous trouvons cet avertissement : “Quand ton ennemi tombe, ne te réjouis pas ; et quand il trébuche, que ton cœur ne soit pas joyeux, pour que Jéhovah ne le voie pas, et que cela ne soit pas mauvais à ses yeux.”
 

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11 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

How about this context? :))

 

Proverbs 24:17 New International Version (NIV)

 

17 Do not gloat when your enemy falls;
    when they stumble, do not let your heart rejoice,

What about it?

This verse has no violation of Hebrew Strong's at all and it cross-references to Job 31:29, Proverbs 17:5,  and 25:21, 22.

As a Christians, when an enemy falls we are not to rejoice, and when he is caused to stumble, we should not b joyful to heart.

Also it goes hand in hand with a saying we have today "Do not kick a man when hes down".

That being said, this verse is way too obvious in meaning to take it out of context, it pretty much tells you the context itself.

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12 hours ago, Josué2 said:

Pour se calmer, il est également très important de ne pas oublier ses relations avec le Créateur. Jéhovah ne regarde pas d’un œil favorable ceux qui se réjouissent du malheur de leurs ennemis, car pareille attitude reflète un esprit vengeur. Or, dans Proverbes 24:17, 18, nous trouvons cet avertissement : “Quand ton ennemi tombe, ne te réjouis pas ; et quand il trébuche, que ton cœur ne soit pas joyeux, pour que Jéhovah ne le voie pas, et que cela ne soit pas mauvais à ses yeux.”

translate.google.com:

To calm down, it is also very important not to forget your relationship with the Creator. Jehovah does not look favorably upon those who rejoice over the misfortune of their enemies, for such an attitude reflects an avenging spirit. Now, in Proverbs 24:17, 18, we find this warning: "When your enemy falls, do not rejoice; and when it stumbles, let not your heart be joyful, that Jehovah may not see it, and that it shall not be evil in his sight."

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Il y a 12 heures, Space Merchant a dit :

Qu'en est-il?

Ce verset a pas eu violation de l' hébreu Strong du tout et il références croisées à  Job 31:29, Proverbes 17: 5 et 25:21, 22 .

En tant que chrétiens, quand un ennemi tombe, nous ne sommes pas de se réjouir, et quand il est scandalisé, il ne faut pas b joie à cœur.

En outre , il va de pair avec un dicton que nous avons aujourd'hui « Ne pas lancer un homme quand hes vers le bas ».

Cela étant dit, ce verset est trop évidente dans un sens à prendre hors contexte, il vous dit à peu près le contexte lui-même.

qui parle de ce réjouir dans cette citation  ?

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Case 1)

Happy will be the one who rewards you With the treatment you inflicted on us.

Happy will be the one who seizes your children And dashes them against the rocks.

Case 2)

Do not gloat when your enemy falls;
 when they stumble, do not let your heart rejoice,

Case 3)

If your enemy is hungry, give him bread to eat;
And if he is thirsty, give him water to drink;
 For so you will heap coals of fire on his head,
And the Lord will reward you.

 

Please, now do make context of this inspired verses. Context doesn't mean only few verses in one and same passage, chapter or same book. But context in/of all 66 books. And even more, not just context of The Book, but context of life, time, space, love, hate ..... Context of purpose and final result.

I am not to try support this or that conclusion, but point to/out, indicate on some problematic that can arise.

 

 

 

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6 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Case 1)

Happy will be the one who rewards you With the treatment you inflicted on us.

Happy will be the one who seizes your children And dashes them against the rocks.

Case 2)

Do not gloat when your enemy falls;
 when they stumble, do not let your heart rejoice,

Case 3)

If your enemy is hungry, give him bread to eat;
And if he is thirsty, give him water to drink;
 For so you will heap coals of fire on his head,
And the Lord will reward you.

This has been pretty much answered. Also the other verses in question points to Proverbs 25:21-23 and Psalms 137:9.

Now I see that you bring up Psalms 137:9 (which also points to Isaiah 13:1, 16), I have seen this verse brought up countless times by those who want to attack the Bible as well as those who do not understand this verse's context. Now, in context, it is regarding God having used the Cyrus, a Persian ruler, to liberate his people from Babylon, for the people were held in captivity. The final verse was not in regards to Cyrus, but rather, to Babylon the Great, the world power at that time - the old harlot, Babylon, the wild beast and the fact that it foretells the avenging of God's people - who today are identified as True Christians.

Athirst tend to use this verse as a "Gotcha Question", but any man or woman who knows the context can answer this flawlessly. This also goes hand in hand with the prophet and sex slaves questions they tend to bring up, or another regarding Mary's age.

The other verse, Proverbs 25:21-23, speaks for itself and it isn't too far from the original verse you professed.

6 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Please, now do make context of this inspired verses.

There inspired because they are found in the original manuscript sources.

6 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Context doesn't mean only few verses in one and same passage, chapter or same book. But context in/of all 66 books.

There is context in a verse and or passages, even in parables in all books of the Bible.

6 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

And even more, not just context of The Book, but context of life, time, space, love, hate ..... Context of purpose and final result.

Life, time, space, love, hate? You still on the Bible or somewhere else?

6 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

I am not to try support this or that conclusion, but point to/out, indicate on some problematic that can arise.

But you are now between a rock and a hard place.

You have the accepting of context of a verse and or passage and the latter, accepting the verse or passage word for word without taking in any sort of understanding.

Also it would also be the best thing to look at all translations for those specific verses you are pointing to.

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Il n'est pas dit de ce réjouir contre un ennemi ou adversaire. au contraire le verset de Paul cité plus haut est des plus explicite.

(Romains 12:18-21) [...] . 19 Mes bien-aimés, ne vous vengez pas vous-mêmes, mais laissez agir la colère de Dieu ; car il est écrit : « “La vengeance est à moi ; c’est moi qui paierai de retour”, dit Jéhovah. » 20 Au contraire, « si ton ennemi a faim, donne-lui à manger ; s’il a soif, donne-lui à boire ; car en faisant cela, tu amasseras des braises sur sa tête ». 21 Ne te laisse pas vaincre par le mal, mais continue à vaincre le mal par le bien.
 

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2 hours ago, Josué2 said:

Il n'est pas dit de ce réjouir contre un ennemi ou adversaire. au contraire le verset de Paul cité plus haut est des plus explicite.

(Romains 12:18-21) [...] . 19 Mes bien-aimés, ne vous vengez pas vous-mêmes, mais laissez agir la colère de Dieu ; car il est écrit : « “La vengeance est à moi ; c’est moi qui paierai de retour”, dit Jéhovah. » 20 Au contraire, « si ton ennemi a faim, donne-lui à manger ; s’il a soif, donne-lui à boire ; car en faisant cela, tu amasseras des braises sur sa tête ». 21 Ne te laisse pas vaincre par le mal, mais continue à vaincre le mal par le bien.
 

Nice! But have in mind that old patriarchs and Israel leaders have (they had) different view sometimes. And seems how JHVH "blessed" (or approved or not have specific view, let them done what they want to do) about many of violent acts in battles against all sort of "enemies" that was not been "loved" by Israel people.

Well, seems how so called Context about love and hate, about commands, about scriptures, about scriptures in time line,  about enemy in this conversation, was/had different, opposite interpretations and attitudes, standpoints, doctrines through time and space.   

Old Israel people had some "Commands" (not as God's commands but as man's (Israel religious or political leaders) commands, that was teaching them differently than The Law or Jesus later.  

 

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19 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

and that is good.... or i will be broken or hard place will be destroyed :)))) 

It isn't good because it puts you in a difficult situation. It is like being stressed out, confused and panicky of wanting to go left, or wanting to go right, wanting to eat an apple or an orange, etc. to the point you cannot decide.

In the realm of Scrpture and Hermeneutics, you are between choosing context or not choosing context whereas if context is applied, you better understand the verse, but if no context is applied, you read a verse as is and not realize what the verse is telling you.

For example, we have these 2 verses:

  • John 10:30 - I and the Father are one.
  • John 20:28 - Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!”

No Context regarding these verses: At just the surface information, someone will be 100% convinced that Jesus is God because of what Thomas had said and what Jesus had said, they also ignore the cross-references and 99% of the chapter itself.

With Context regarding these verses: We know that Thomas didn't see Jesus as God because he was present with Jesus when Martha, the sister of Lazarus and Mary spoke to him. Thomas was also not there when Jesus, who had recently been resurrected, met with the other disciples and was in doubt, only when he finally saw Jesus he believed and Jesus pretty much tells Thomas everything on the final verse that he is God's Son - hence the verse or passage is about seeing and believing, etc. While John 10:30, the disciples are also one as read in John 17:20-26, the people, John 10:16, and a list of other verses regarding people in union with Christ and having God dwell in them as God dwells in the Christ (all this is even more information filled with cross-references).

As you can see context matters when it comes to a verse and or passage.

18 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Nice! But have in mind that old patriarchs and Israel leaders have (they had) different view sometimes. And seems how JHVH "blessed" (or approved or not have specific view, let them done what they want to do) about many of violent acts in battles against all sort of "enemies" that was not been "loved" by Israel people.

@Josué2 is speaking about having not to rejoice against an enemy. God's people have not changed or had different views, for they followed all the commands of God and did as God had told them to, even in the face of those who are enemies of God. Never have we see in the Bible God's people boasting about killing an enemy and or ravaging the corpses of their enemy, which a thing we can see from those who are enemies of God's people, for example, The Philistines, Goliath, or that of the 2 Midianite kings, Zebah and Zalmunna, such ones taunt not just his people, but God also, they even make a mockery of fallen ones in battle such as Saul and his Son, as you can read in the Bible what happen to their corpses.

Yes it was over the top brutal back in those days, but God's people would never rejoice over a brutal defeat of their enemy, if anything they will sing to God and give praise to God for delivering them out of the hands of their enemies - for there is always a reason, a cause and effect in such things, and we can see that in the Bible.

This also goes hand in hand with the verses that you are focused on, when context is understood, it does not look complex.

18 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Well, seems how so called Context about love and hate, about commands, about scriptures, about scriptures in time line,  about enemy in this conversation, was/had different, opposite interpretations and attitudes, standpoints, doctrines through time and space.   

But the context is there, the question is, do you see it? It should also be noted there is always a reason of action in the days of old, just so we are clear.

18 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Old Israel people had some "Commands" (not as God's commands but as man's (Israel religious or political leaders) commands, that was teaching them differently than The Law or Jesus later.  

How are you so sure when their laws and commandments come directly from the scriptures? The foremost command Jesus spoke of hangs has those laws, in turn, Bible principles, hanging on to them, therefore, such laws are not of man's, but of God's if it persist through Jesus' day to now.

Can you be specific on this "Law of Man" of which you speak of, Srecko? Also it would also help if you can identify one political leader as you claim, we know of religious leaders and judges, but it would be helpful if you point out the specifics in terms of those who has a political stance, as you claim mixed in with law of men.

 

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Il y a 20 heures, Srecko Sostar a dit :

Agréable! Mais avoir à l'esprit que les anciens patriarches et les dirigeants d'Israël ont (ils avaient) point de vue différent parfois. Et semble comment YHWH « béni » (ou approuvé ou pas vue spécifique, laissez-les faire ce qu'ils veulent faire) sur un grand nombre d'actes de violence dans des combats contre toutes sortes de « ennemis » qui n'a pas été été « aimé » par les gens d'Israël.

Eh bien, semble comment ce qu'on appelle contexte de l'amour et la haine, sur les commandes, sur les écritures, sur les écritures en ligne de temps, à propos de l'ennemi dans cette conversation, a / avait différentes interprétations opposées et les attitudes, les points de vue, des doctrines à travers le temps et l'espace.   

Ancien peuple d'Israël avaient des « commandes » (pas les commandements de Dieu, mais comme les commandements de l'homme (Israël chefs religieux ou politiques), qui enseignait différemment que la loi ou Jésus plus tard.  

Les ancien patriarches n'avait pas un esprit haine.Ils me fait prouver le contraire bible à l'appui.

 

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2 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

Can you be specific on this "Law of Man" of which you speak of, Srecko?

 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ - source; Jesus.

This is words in sermon Jesus gave to Jew people who came to hear. So, it is clear, to me,  that Jew leaders (who ever they have been, religious or administrative (read political, hahaha) or something in a middle of both side, or some political/religious fractions among Jew nation) are those who was said something , about what Jesus has refer and used in his lesson and warning.

For example in Jesus time there are: The Pharisees, The Sadducees,  The Galileans,  The Sanhedrin, The Scribes.

Before, in "golden time" of Kings, there are/was exist opposition also.  Read the Bible for information's.    

 

Sort of resume:

People before and now (past/present) , Jew's or Christian's or JW's or some other's believers in holy Bible can follow "The Word" or "The Law" which source can be from God, from god's, from human. Also, "word" and "law" can be amalgam, mixture of all parties mentioned in sentence before - we have the same "problem" of old new or new old, it depends of who stand before issue (one proverb say, old joke-new fool).  

That is conclusion i can read from Jesus quote in Matthew. “You have heard that it was said,.."

Who have heard? --- believers, followers, people from nations, JW members .....?

and most important, "WHO was said?!" ---- Rabin's, Pope, priests, elders, GB of WTJWorg ......?  

 

At the end of a day no one can be absolutely sure what is, what was The PURE Word or The PURE Law of JHVH and what is/are NOT. :)) 

  

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4 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ - source; Jesus.

Before I start, you do realize the passage as a whole... right?

How everything is align goes as followed:

  • The Sermon on the Mount (1)
  • The Beatitudes (2-11)
  • Salt and Light (13-16)
  • Christ Came to Fulfill the Law (16)
  • Anger (21-26)
  • Lust (27-30)
  • Divorce (31-32)
  • Oaths (33-37)
  • Retaliation (38-42)
  • Love your Enemies (43-48)

Your focus is on verse 43, but the passage as a whole says the following:

[43] “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ [44] But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, [45] so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. [46] For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? [47] And if you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? [48] You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

So note, Jesus said You have heard that it was said, and he states the following, moreover, nothing in the Mosaic Law says anything about hating your enemy, the very reason Jesus made the point clear in the next verse.

How do we know? Very simple, let's go for context.

When it is spoken of, when one must love your neighbor, The Mosaic Law directed the Israelites to love their neighbor, we can see the law being professed in this verse below

  • Leviticus 19:18 - You shall not take vengeance or bear a grudge against the sons of your own people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the Lord [YHWH].

Neighbor is in regards to one’s fellow man, for some Jews went off the rails on the meaning and focused on solely themselves than others, especially those who kept the specific verbal traditions; all other people were to be considered enemies, which is not the case according to the Law itself - therefore for you to say something is Lawful when it isn't even written by Law or in the Torah makes you incorrect and it shows that you are looking at the verse at face value without context. Now let's move on to hate your enemy. As already stated, the Mosaic Law contained no such command. Some Jewish rabbis believed that the command to love their neighbor implied that they should hate their enemy, but nothing Scriptural in the Hebrew Old Testament makes prove to a specific Law of Man as you make mention of that points to such - therefore,it is unfounded.

Also these other references made help, regarding to continuing to love your enemies, just as Christ Jesus conveys by means of counsel, which is in harmony with the spirit of the Hebrew text and the Law itself (Exodus 23:4, 5, Job 31:29, Proverbs 24:17, 18 and 25:21), furthermore, this also hangs on to the foremost commandments.

4 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

This is words in sermon Jesus gave to Jew people who came to hear. So, it is clear, to me,  that Jew leaders (who ever they have been, religious or administrative (read political, hahaha) or something in a middle of both side, or some political/religious fractions among Jew nation) are those who was said something , about what Jesus has refer and used in his lesson and warning.

So far we have not seen any political leaders - as you claim.

We haven't seen any Law of Man that professes to hate your enemy - as you claim, which is countered by the fact that to hating an enemy is nowhere to be found in the Mosaic Law. The only thing that is found is to regarding loving your neighbor, in turn, loving your enemy.

If you truly understand Jesus' counsel, you would have been able to spot the fact of what he said before and after Matthew 5:43. After all, the cross-references even gives you the answer.

4 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

For example in Jesus time there are: The Pharisees, The Sadducees,  The Galileans,  The Sanhedrin, The Scribes.

Religious leaders and rabbis, leader of the Jews. Where are the political leaders you speak of, a specific one, like I asked?

4 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Before, in "golden time" of Kings, there are/was exist opposition also.  Read the Bible for information's.    

True, but then you have the Mosaic Law, and you were not being specific of a political figure who does something entirely different from what is written.

4 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Sort of resume:

People before and now (past/present) , Jew's or Christian's or JW's or some other's believers in holy Bible can follow "The Word" or "The Law" which source can be from God, from god's, from human. Also, "word" and "law" can be amalgam, mixture of all parties mentioned in sentence before - we have the same "problem" of old new or new old, it depends of who stand before issue (one proverb say, old joke-new fool).  

And yet God's Spoken Word professed the Law and the Law was applied to the people, an example would be in Moses Day and the very fact that Moses wrote the first five books of the Bible and in the Hebrew Text it is called the Torah, otherwise known as Instruction. plethora of laws are found within the first five books, an example would be Shema Yisrael.

So pretty much God's Word and the Law are one in the same, the Laws professed in the New Testament are the same, but are Biblical Principles to which Christians are to apply.

Old Laws still hang on to the foremost commandments - for the Bible says so, therefore the fool will be made knowledgeable because he now sees God's Word is true.

4 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

That is conclusion i can read from Jesus quote in Matthew. “You have heard that it was said,.."

You may want to re-read the passage again if you missed that something was not mentioned in the Mosaic Law, what you professed holds no water if you cannot bring proof to claim.

4 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

and most important, "WHO was said?!" ---- Rabin's, Pope, priests, elders, GB of WTJWorg ......?  

The laws still hang, I am pretty sure Restorationist Christians are aware of that if they themselves cross-references this and refer to it as the Law of Christ.

4 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

At the end of a day no one can be absolutely sure what is, what was The PURE Word or The PURE Law of JHVH and what is/are NOT. :)) 

It isn't unknown to anyone, simply read the Old Testament, for it matches up with what Jesus says in the New Testament and or anyone else?

For example, when Satan tried to tempt Jesus:

  • Matthew 4:10 - Then Jesus said to him, “Be gone, Satan! For it is written, “‘You shall worship the Lord your God and him only shall you serve.’”
  • Luke 4:8 - And Jesus answered him, “It is written, “‘You shall worship the Lord your God, and him only shall you serve.’”

And what Law Jesus is referring to exactly? The answer is here by means of cross-references to the Old Testament:

  • Exodus 20:3 - You shall have no other gods before me.
  • Deuteronomy 6:13 - It is the Lord your God you shall fear. Him you shall serve and by his name you shall swear.
  • Deuteronomy 10:20 - You shall fear the Lord your God. You shall serve him and hold fast to him, and by his name you shall swear.

Very simple and at the end of the day, this is known by those who take the time to read, research, apply and study the Scriptures.

4 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

The Essenes, The Zealots, The 'Am Ha-aretz, ...

The Samaritans, the Sicarii, The Herodians ...

Your point? Also you are aware that in those days there were people for God and people who were against God, and those who had no idea who the True God is - right? This should be known for we discussed this before.

That being said, you are driving the focus away from the actually verses you based your topic on, so I will quote you as a reminder:

Note: Pretty much your focus has already been answered several times on this same thread.

Quote
On 10/28/2018 at 2:02 AM, Srecko Sostar said:

Confusing and controversial ideas and perceptions we can find about God, life and death, feelings, acts/deeds of human and gods.

HOW GOD FEELS ABOUT LIFE

3. What did Jehovah do when Cain killed Abel?

3 The Bible teaches us that our life and the lives of other people are precious to Jehovah. For example, when Cain—Adam and Eve’s son—was very angry with his younger brother Abel, Jehovah warned Cain that he needed to control his anger. But Cain didn’t listen, and he became so angry that he “assaulted his brother Abel and killed him.” (Genesis 4:3-8) Jehovah punished Cain for murdering Abel. (Genesis 4:9-11) So anger and hatred are dangerous because they can make us become violent or cruel. A person who is like that cannot have everlasting life. (Read1 John 3:15.) To please Jehovah, we must learn to love all people.—1 John 3:11, 12. - 

    Hello guest!

 

On other side we can find this in Bible, directly as words inspired to be written by Almighty God.  

 

  7   Remember, O Jehovah,What the Eʹdom·ites said on the day Jerusalem fell:“Tear it down! Tear it down to its foundations!”

    Hello guest!
 

    Hello guest!
 O daughter of Babylon, who is soon to be devastated,
    Hello guest!
Happy will be the one who rewards you With the treatment you inflicted on us.
    Hello guest!

    Hello guest!
 Happy will be the one who seizes your children And dashes them against the rocks.
    Hello guest!
 -  
    Hello guest!

 

 

I suggest you better acquaint yourself with what the Mosaic Law is. If you can somewhat comprehend Galatians 3:28, this, the laws of the Jews, should not be that complex.

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The Mosaic law was only for the Nation of Israel though the principles of that Law are carried through in the Greek Scriptures. 

And one point i noticed from the same scripture you are debating, Matthew 5, in verse 45, Jesus calls them 'sons' not children. 

"so that you may prove yourselves sons of your Father who is in the heavens," 

Hence i continue to say, these scriptures are written for the Anointed class only.

Why? Because only the Anointed are called 'Sons'. The earthly class are called 'Children' of God.

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wej poH yoDSutmey tuQ Sol ghajbogh neH … loS poH ghaH 'Iv ro' yong wa'DIch.

 

Trois fois armé, c'est celui qui se dispute juste ... et quatre fois

celui qui se fait poing en premier.

 

Three times armed is he who has his quarrel just

... and four times he who gets his fist in first.

 

 

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Il y a 1 heure, JOHN BUTLER a dit :

La loi mosaïque était seulement pour la nation d'Israël bien que les principes de cette loi sont portés par les Écritures grecques. 

Et un point, j'ai remarqué de la même écriture que vous débattons, Matthieu 5, au verset 45, Jésus les appelle « fils » et non les enfants. 

« Afin que vous puissiez vous prouver fils de votre Père qui est dans les cieux » 

Par conséquent, je continue à dire que ces écritures ont été écrites pour la classe Oint seulement.

Pourquoi? Parce que seul l'Oint sont appelés « fils ». La classe terrestre sont appelés « enfants » de Dieu.

L'important c'est d'être connue de Dieu.

(Romains 10:19, 20) [...] » 20 Et Isaïe ose même dire : « J’ai été trouvé par ceux qui ne me cherchaient pas ; je suis devenu connu de ceux qui ne demandaient pas à me parler. [...] 
 

 

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23 minutes ago, Josué2 said:

L'important c'est d'être connue de Dieu.

(Romains 10:19, 20) [...] » 20 Et Isaïe ose même dire : « J’ai été trouvé par ceux qui ne me cherchaient pas ; je suis devenu connu de ceux qui ne demandaient pas à me parler. [...] 

Exactement. 

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What in this words told by Jesus need some extra context with some special interpretation, that is not visible while reader reading it? - “You have heard that it was said, ...."

Those who listened Jesus at moment he gave sermon knew well WHO told them;

1) You shall not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.

2) You shall not commit adultery

3) Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.

4) Do not break your oath, but fulfill to the Lord the vows you have made

5) Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.

6) Love your neighbor  and hate your enemy.

It is noticeable how Jesus have extra appendix on every of this listed, quoted things he made. Did he go beyond already said and written? He gave some  additional explanation? He gave not just an explanation, but even a guide that differs from what they were taught.

All this 6 points you can find in Ten commands and Mosaic Law. But one you would not find - "hate your enemy". But Bible have idea of hating. Not only hating bad things in general or bad deeds made by people. Bible talking about hate that is directed towards other people. 

General idea of "hating" is visible in book Ec. 3:8. ...a time to love and a time to hate

Very specific way of hating is visible in;

Psalm 139:21,22 ....Do not I hate them, O Lord, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee? I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies.

Hosea 9:15 Every evil of theirs is in Gilgal; there I began to hate them 

Luke 14:26 “If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters— yes, even his own life— he cannot be My disciple.

In sermon, Jesus talking about NOT HATING enemy but also about HATING family members. 

You can talk about so called CONTEXT how much you wish and want, but what is said - it is said, and how it was said -it was said. WTJWorg in some of Bible verses  found basis for shunning, avoiding and ignoring those who disagree about WT doctrines.      

In one moment Jesus making corrections about Mosaic Law and oral teaching, oral law. In next moment he has told something that WT scholars using for own Oral laws and commands and instructions.

Do you still want continue to insist on so called Context? What Context, when whole  Bible can be used for particular interest of  governing elite. :))) Each group will find its context and claim how that is A Context. :))

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44 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

What in this words told by Jesus need some extra context with some special interpretation, that is not visible while reader reading it? - “You have heard that it was said, ...."

Those who listened Jesus at moment he gave sermon knew well WHO told them;

1) You shall not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.

2) You shall not commit adultery

3) Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.

4) Do not break your oath, but fulfill to the Lord the vows you have made

5) Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.

6) Love your neighbor  and hate your enemy.

It is noticeable how Jesus have extra appendix on every of this listed, quoted things he made. Did he go beyond already said and written? He gave some  additional explanation? He gave not just an explanation, but even a guide that differs from what they were taught.

All this 6 points you can find in Ten commands and Mosaic Law. But one you would not find - "hate your enemy". But Bible have idea of hating. Not only hating bad things in general or bad deeds made by people. Bible talking about hate that is directed towards other people. 

General idea of "hating" is visible in book Ec. 3:8. ...a time to love and a time to hate

Very specific way of hating is visible in;

Psalm 139:21,22 ....Do not I hate them, O Lord, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee? I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies.

Hosea 9:15 Every evil of theirs is in Gilgal; there I began to hate them 

Luke 14:26 “If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters— yes, even his own life— he cannot be My disciple.

In sermon, Jesus talking about NOT HATING enemy but also about HATING family members. 

You can talk about so called CONTEXT how much you wish and want, but what is said - it is said, and how it was said -it was said. WTJWorg in some of Bible verses  found basis for shunning, avoiding and ignoring those who disagree about WT doctrines.      

In one moment Jesus making corrections about Mosaic Law and oral teaching, oral law. In next moment he has told something that WT scholars using for own Oral laws and commands and instructions.

Do you still want continue to insist on so called Context? What Context, when whole  Bible can be used for particular interest of  governing elite. :))) Each group will find its context and claim how that is A Context. :))

 “If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple. (Luke 14 v 26).

Yes very strong words indeed. But i still think they were addressed only to the Anointed. 

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Il voulait plutôt dire que ses disciples devaient aimer moins les membres de leur famille que Dieu (voir Matthieu 6:24). Dans le même ordre d’idée, la Bible relate que Jacob ‘haïssait’ Léa et aimait sa sœur Rachel, autrement dit qu’il n’aimait pas la première autant que la seconde (Genèse 29:30-32).
 

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9 minutes ago, Josué2 said:


Il voulait plutôt dire que ses disciples devaient aimer moins les membres de leur famille que Dieu (voir Matthieu 6:24). Dans le même ordre d’idée, la Bible relate que Jacob ‘haïssait’ Léa et aimait sa sœur Rachel, autrement dit qu’il n’aimait pas la première autant que la seconde (Genèse 29:30-32).
 

OK, i can "swallow" this interpretation and make careful agree with idea you present, BUT when you say "to love less" what you really mean by that? What is truly, actually everyday way how you and other JW member SHOW this "less love" ??!!  And what when your family member decide not to be JW or stop to be JW?

According to WT, "to love less" means not to pick up cell phone when dfd daughter call her mum. And that is shameful !! Is it that what you mean by "to love less" in religious sort of thinking?

For me, that is out of mind and brutal, that is destruction of humanity, it ruins the natural conscience  and creates an artificial people, insensitive robots. 

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11 hours ago, Josué2 said:

Matthieu 6:24

Matthew 6:24 New International Version (NIV)

24 “No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money.

What is your message?

Is it this?

God=master. Money=master. 

You hate God but love money. Or. You hate money but love God.

You will be devoted to God and despise money. Or. You will be devoted to money and despise God.

 

If one of this is in your life, please give some example how looks your hate and your love, on money and God. :))

 

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11 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Genèse 29:30-32

Jacob made love to Rachel also, and his love for Rachel was greater than his love for Leah. And he worked for Laban another seven years.

 When the Lord saw that Leah was not loved, he enabled her to conceive, but Rachel remained childless.  Leah became pregnant and gave birth to a son. She named him Reuben,[a] for she said, “It is because the Lord has seen my misery. Surely my husband will love me now.”

 

Here we have some gradation, degrees, in feelings of love. (Hate can also have gradation)

greater love

grater than

not loved

 

In one moment we have information (inspired information) how Jacob was not just showed  LESS love to Leah, but inspired report said how Lord saw that Leah WAS NOT LOVED. Here we have very different conclusion. Not loved at all. 

Is it possible to say how sometimes when somebody say, I love my dfd family member less, in fact means -- I do not love him/her at all? 

What literal message is here in Genesis? If you have two women in your life and you dare to love one less (or not love at all), than God will punished woman you love more. Or do i missed something and not saw some greater Context? :)) 

In next post/comment i will put another example and ask you to find a context and lesson for 21 century people. 

 

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  1. So David rose and he and his men went and struck
      Hello guest!
     down among the Phi·lisʹtines two[
      Hello guest!
    ]
    hundred men, and David came bringing their foreskins
      Hello guest!
     and giving them in full number to the king, to form a marriage alliance with the king. In turn Saul gave him Miʹchal his daughter as a wife.
      Hello guest!

 

If you like, please skip all that intrigues between Saul and David and fighting for power and prestige.  I am not interested in background about problems that those two individual had among them. It will be very good to see and understand what in this act is precious for Christian today to imitate when they found themselves in premarital period, about money and material issue, new family bonds,  .....

In this and other stuff about David we found description -  And David was continually acting prudently in all his ways, and Jehovah was with him.  

According to this statement it was ok to kill 200 people, even enemies, as price for bride. Bloody money, we would say today. Nice beginning  of family life. Miʹchal, Saul’s daughter must be very proud and happy when heard about trophy David has won, collected.  It seems how such way of living was the best and only possible if you want to survive in such society. We today are too much meek in comparison to manly, macho individuals as David.

Well, we have two messages from Bible:

Be meek like Jesus (read - let people spit on you) 

Be prudent like David (read - don't mess with me).

... now please would someone give context of this two teachings :))

 

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Il y a 10 heures, Srecko Sostar a dit :

Matthew 6:24 New International Version (NIV)

24 « Nul ne peut servir deux maîtres. Soit vous haïra l'un et aimera l'autre, ou vous serez consacré à l'un et méprisera l'autre. Vous ne pouvez servir Dieu et l'argent.

Quel est votre message?

Est-ce cela?

Dieu = maître. L'argent = maître. 

Vous détestez Dieu mais l'amour de l'argent. Ou. Vous détestez l'argent mais l'amour de Dieu.

Vous serez dévoué à Dieu et qui méprisent l'argent. Ou. Vous serez dévoué à l'argent et à mépriser Dieu.

 

Si l' un de ce qui est dans votre vie, s'il vous plaît donner un exemple , comment ressemble votre haine et votre amour, de l'argent et Dieu. :))

 

Désolè je ne vois trop le rapport avec ma citation des paroles de Jésus.

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2 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Please, give some example how looks your hate and your love in everyday life .... :))

For some of us there are emotions / feelings in between Love and Hate. 

We should love our neighbours, but can't say a i do. I tend not to get involved with my neighbours, but i do consider their feelings when i do things outside of the house. So in my opinion showing consideration is a way of showing love, but in an indirect way. 

For some people, those that have had a good upbringing and have been shown love, it is probably easier to show love to others. But when life has kicked you down for more than half a century then showing love becomes more difficult.  God understands all this of course, but never expect people to understand. 

I show 'love' to some people by just completely ignoring them. Well it's better than doing them harm :) .

Hate, I think we all hate something or someone at times. We are all sinners and fall short in many ways. 

But you know the things i hate, no need to repeat them again. 

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10 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

For some of us there are emotions / feelings in between Love and Hate. 

We should love our neighbours, but can't say a i do. I tend not to get involved with my neighbours, but i do consider their feelings when i do things outside of the house. So in my opinion showing consideration is a way of showing love, but in an indirect way. 

For some people, those that have had a good upbringing and have been shown love, it is probably easier to show love to others. But when life has kicked you down for more than half a century then showing love becomes more difficult.  God understands all this of course, but never expect people to understand. 

I show 'love' to some people by just completely ignoring them. Well it's better than doing them harm :) .

Hate, I think we all hate something or someone at times. We are all sinners and fall short in many ways. 

But you know the things i hate, no need to repeat them again. 

Thanks for respond. Question is very hard to answer in full measure, with complete sincerity and openness. But, this is not environment to be completely open on every aspects of own private life. I truly appreciated your sincerity John and contribution you made by brave comments and experience you went through.  

First and only sincerity one must show, 

is in front "mirror"  when we looking own face, literal and spiritual. Would we go so far and tell some "secret" feelings and thoughts? It requires more faith and courage than of many who have been called "people of faith".

"The Truth". How widely meaning and many areas are covered in this word. 

 

 

 

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"The Truth". How widely meaning and many areas are covered in this word. 

Yes, too many areas and too many meanings. In a law court people will swear on the Bible to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth... But it means nothing to person that wants to tell lies. Swearing on the Bible would just be one more lie for them to tell. 

And with Bible truth, who really knows. Do you think God meant all of us to go as far as Strong's Concordance to study His word ? I think not. 

And in my opinion, I feel that only the Anointed can have the 'true' understanding. I think that an Anointed class Earthwide is needed to get full understanding. This is a long way from the JW, Governing Body viewpoint. They think it is only them 8 men that can pass on understanding to us all... I think God will show us all who the real Anointed are when He is ready to reveal it  to us. Until then we just have to wait. 

 

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On 10/29/2018 at 4:04 PM, Space Merchant said:

Also it goes hand in hand with a saying we have today "Do not kick a man when hes down".

That being said, this verse is way too obvious in meaning to take it out of context, it pretty much tells you the context itself.

There is a very real difference between "kicking a man when he is down" when someone has stumbled or become a victim of folly, or chance and circumstance .... and "kicking a man when he is down" who just tried to assault you ... or did in fact assault you, and in combat you prevailed and got him to the ground.

In that case, I would kick him while he was down until he completely and unquestionably had the ability to fight permanently removed from his sorry body ....  and completely ceased to be a threat to anyone.

THAT ... IS CONTEXT!

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On 11/2/2018 at 1:36 PM, Srecko Sostar said:

What in this words told by Jesus need some extra context with some special interpretation, that is not visible while reader reading it? - “You have heard that it was said, ...."

Those who listened Jesus at moment he gave sermon knew well WHO told them;

1) You shall not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.

2) You shall not commit adultery

3) Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.

4) Do not break your oath, but fulfill to the Lord the vows you have made

5) Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.

6) Love your neighbor  and hate your enemy.

Foremost commandments are still in use and the very fact that the Law Commandments hangs on to them still to this day, therefore, the context is indeed there.

On 11/2/2018 at 1:36 PM, Srecko Sostar said:

It is noticeable how Jesus have extra appendix on every of this listed, quoted things he made. Did he go beyond already said and written? He gave some  additional explanation? He gave not just an explanation, but even a guide that differs from what they were taught.

He has not, for what he speaks of is of what is written.

On 11/2/2018 at 1:36 PM, Srecko Sostar said:

All this 6 points you can find in Ten commands and Mosaic Law. But one you would not find - "hate your enemy". But Bible have idea of hating. Not only hating bad things in general or bad deeds made by people. Bible talking about hate that is directed towards other people. 

There is no law, the Mosaic Law that says to hate your enemy. So far you have not proven anything thus far, Srecko.

You also still haven't shown anything pertaining to political leaders, therefore, you, Srecko, are adding to the text, thus going out of context as seen here.

On 11/2/2018 at 1:36 PM, Srecko Sostar said:

General idea of "hating" is visible in book Ec. 3:8. ...a time to love and a time to hate

So suddenly you do not want to talk about the Law and the commandments? Why the change? In this case, do you yourself understand this verse?

Because already the Strong's stack up against you, before I post them I'd like to see your resolve.

On 11/2/2018 at 1:36 PM, Srecko Sostar said:

Psalm 139:21,22 ....Do not I hate them, O Lord, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee? I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies.

Hosea 9:15 Every evil of theirs is in Gilgal; there I began to hate them 

Luke 14:26 “If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters— yes, even his own life— he cannot be My disciple.

So how does that equal, according to you, to a law that does not exist among the Jews?

On 11/2/2018 at 1:36 PM, Srecko Sostar said:

In sermon, Jesus talking about NOT HATING enemy but also about HATING family members. 

So why assume such in your previous response? Jesus did in fact gave the ability to bind and loosen and even spoke of relatives even family members who do not accept him, the Christ an the teachings.

On 11/2/2018 at 1:36 PM, Srecko Sostar said:

You can talk about so called CONTEXT how much you wish and want, but what is said - it is said, and how it was said -it was said. WTJWorg in some of Bible verses  found basis for shunning, avoiding and ignoring those who disagree about WT doctrines.    

You yourself do not understand context, for if you had, you realize what Jesus professed about the Church HE has built. The Watchtower never existed 2,000 years ago, but the apostolic church did, with proof and evidence and even the Didache points to it;s existence, the very reason as to why only few Christians are trying to apply the practices and teachings of the Church that Jesus has built. Case and point.

The expelling and Shunning command itself stems from the Christ himself. Mathew 16, 18 and what Paul put into practice.

Expelling/Shunning had been entrusted to the disciples, and on to those who led the church, the very reason as to why excommunication exist. You've been schooled on this before, and it can happen again if you wish to go that route - I do not mind speaking some sense to a man who remains ignorant of the church that existed.

Verily I say unto you, what things soever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and what things soever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

The simple and the lukewarm will never understand anything from the Bible, and after what I had witnessed today, I see it in such ones like you.

On 11/2/2018 at 1:36 PM, Srecko Sostar said:

In one moment Jesus making corrections about Mosaic Law and oral teaching, oral law. In next moment he has told something that WT scholars using for own Oral laws and commands and instructions.

Jesus never changed the Law, the Law remains by means of the foremost commandments. They still hang and is practiced today by means of bible Principles.

On 11/2/2018 at 1:36 PM, Srecko Sostar said:

Do you still want continue to insist on so called Context? What Context, when whole  Bible can be used for particular interest of  governing elite. :))) Each group will find its context and claim how that is A Context. :))

Yes, the context should be spoken and this time no one is going to be soft about it either. If you want to go over that of what Jesus entrusted, I would when he does come, he give you time to make answer as to why you are shifting and or breaking away from his Word. I suggest you read Matthew 7:20-23.

You do not have to like expelling, but to remove it when it was commanded by means of the Christ and applied by his followers, to their followers ad even the students of the apostle and onward, you'll answer to that when he returns, so have many who choose to go down that route.

On 11/2/2018 at 3:10 PM, Srecko Sostar said:

OK, i can "swallow" this interpretation and make careful agree with idea you present, BUT when you say "to love less" what you really mean by that? What is truly, actually everyday way how you and other JW member SHOW this "less love" ??!!  And what when your family member decide not to be JW or stop to be JW?

 

13 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Jacob made love to Rachel also, and his love for Rachel was greater than his love for Leah. And he worked for Laban another seven years.

 When the Lord saw that Leah was not loved, he enabled her to conceive, but Rachel remained childless.  Leah became pregnant and gave birth to a son. She named him Reuben,[a] for she said, “It is because the Lord has seen my misery. Surely my husband will love me now.”

 

Here we have some gradation, degrees, in feelings of love. (Hate can also have gradation)

greater love

grater than

not loved

 

In one moment we have information (inspired information) how Jacob was not just showed  LESS love to Leah, but inspired report said how Lord saw that Leah WAS NOT LOVED. Here we have very different conclusion. Not loved at all. 

Is it possible to say how sometimes when somebody say, I love my dfd family member less, in fact means -- I do not love him/her at all? 

What literal message is here in Genesis? If you have two women in your life and you dare to love one less (or not love at all), than God will punished woman you love more. Or do i missed something and not saw some greater Context? :)) 

In next post/comment i will put another example and ask you to find a context and lesson for 21 century people. 

This is a first, you never liked Abraham, so why go about those Jacob? For last I checked you thought of Abraham as though he was an agent of Satan, as well as being selfish. Now there is no "graduation" of love, as you claim. Jacob loved both his wives, however context itself draws to to the fact that one woman was able to bare children and the other was unable to bare children, thus being barren and it is evident that Jacob wanted children, hence his sons are to become of the 12 Tribes. God came to the aid of one of the women so that she can actually bare children, and instances like this was common in those days for a woman who is barren to feel such a way when she is among those who can give birth to a child,it isn't a surprise. Also to clarify 6 tribes are of one wife, the other 3 bears 2, thus making it 12.

references and footnotes for was not loved even tells you that Leah was unable to bear children, for anyone with minimum education can point that out.

That being said, comparing this to expelled ones is a folly, for expelled persons do not act in such a way and or the latter when it comes to baring children.

If we have to take example of expelling we would have to check out the priest Elijah, not Jacob, for it would have made more sense.

And no, as far as I know, Restorationist when it comes to expelling/shunning practice number 3, so they do care if someone of their own loses church ties by means of excommunication. For this is the 8th time I have to link this website to you, educate yourself because this time around, things must be said. 

    Hello guest!

5 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:
  1. So David rose and he and his men went and struck
      Hello guest!
     down among the Phi·lisʹtines two[
      Hello guest!
    ]
    hundred men, and David came bringing their foreskins
      Hello guest!
     and giving them in full number to the king, to form a marriage alliance with the king. In turn Saul gave him Miʹchal his daughter as a wife.
      Hello guest!

 

If you like, please skip all that intrigues between Saul and David and fighting for power and prestige.  I am not interested in background about problems that those two individual had among them. It will be very good to see and understand what in this act is precious for Christian today to imitate when they found themselves in premarital period, about money and material issue, new family bonds,  .....

In this and other stuff about David we found description -  And David was continually acting prudently in all his ways, and Jehovah was with him.  

According to this statement it was ok to kill 200 people, even enemies, as price for bride. Bloody money, we would say today. Nice beginning  of family life. Miʹchal, Saul’s daughter must be very proud and happy when heard about trophy David has won, collected.  It seems how such way of living was the best and only possible if you want to survive in such society. We today are too much meek in comparison to manly, macho individuals as David.

Well, we have two messages from Bible:

Be meek like Jesus (read - let people spit on you) 

Be prudent like David (read - don't mess with me).

... now please would someone give context of this two teachings :))

The Philistines were not just enemies of God's people, they were enemies of God himself, hence why God's people are always in conflict with enemies of God, especially those who want to do harm to them, take their wives and children and so forth, one of them even threaten to kill a boy and feed him to the wild animals. The 200 men in question were indeed enemies of God and the only reason Saul sent David to begin with because Saul grew jealous and angry with David and attempted to kill him, and he sent David to be killed by the hands of the Philistines, however God was with David, the only reason why David prevailed, and this is not the first time.

And no, we are not living in such a society today, however, with how things are, it is more sophisticated and well calculated compared to our ancient counterparts.

Now we see here you are attempting to go out of context and trying to compare David to Jesus, may I ask, was Jesus alive in David's Day on earth when God had already told David someone will soon come to sit on his throne but not in his day?

Read your Bible Srecko because this shows you do not know what that passage entails.

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1 hour ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

There is a very real difference between "kicking a man when he is down" when someone has stumbled or become a victim of folly, or chance and circumstance .... and "kicking a man when he is down" who just tried to assault you ... or did in fact assault you, and in combat you prevailed and got him to the ground.

In that case, I would kick him while he was down until he completely and unquestionably had the ability to fight permanently removed from his sorry body ....  and completely ceased to be a threat to anyone.

THAT ... IS CONTEXT!

On the contrary, what I stated goes hand in hand with what I said previously.

And I will quote myself again, as Christians, when an enemy falls we are not to rejoice, and when he is caused to stumble, we should not b joyful to heart. Therefore we should not being boastful and or anything of that nature when it comes to an enemy an or opponent, especially at all, otherwise it would defeat the purpose of the very passages made a quote of before.

That being said, to you I direct this, if a Christian who profess truth to other Christians who teach what is false ends up being beaten to a bloody mess by those same disgruntled Christians, even when he is down, they continue to beat him some more, how would that make you as a Christian feel granted you are not even on his side and or neutral to the ordeal, spectating? Clearly you won't be rejoicing over this, but some will rejoice, and they will shout and yell for the disgruntled ones to continue harming the man who is near death.

With that in mind, a man who does no harm to you should not be that position, in a grander scale, such things should not be taught to the people, getting even or fire with fire, yet they do it anyway, even the children practice this.

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29 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Ah, but what would you do to a man that had assaulted someone else, someone not able to defend themselves ? 

Would you turn away and say it's not my business ? 

Most people would succumb to the bystander syndrome/effect, even police officers and military personnel. They will not do anything because it can put them in danger physically and even cause them their life, example, a situation I posted before of a man who jumped in to stop a fight, he sends up getting a pool Stick jammed into his head, another situation whereas a child saved someone only for him to get killed, another whereas a man was shot and killed in front of his family and kids and I am pretty sure even JWs know this for I did post that one JW stumbled upon child prostitution, he was unable to do anything because the people recognized him in the neighborhood and knew where he lived his friends and family, should be taken action, he would have been dead, or his loved ones and it is not unknown to anyone what gang members who are affiliated in the practice will do to their victims, even mobsters too.

Because of things like this people succumb to this effect, although most succeed, the high risk is there, and it goes on all realms of violence, abuse, corruption, etc.

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5 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

Because of things like this people succumb to this effect, although most succeed, the high risk is there, and it goes on all realms of violence, abuse, corruption, etc.

There is a lot of discussion about being a good Christian Man ... but from your above comment, and your perspective, most males are woefully deficient in being a MAN. 

Having male genitalia does not make one a man ... even cows are so equipped ....

.... and CHICKENS!

 

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7 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

There is a lot of discussion about being a good Christian Man ... but from your above comment, and your perspective, most males are woefully deficient in being a MAN. 

Having male genitalia does not make one a man ... even cows are so equipped ....

.... and CHICKENS!

 

You misinterpret my words, a good Christian man, or woman, can be subjected to brutality by other Christians, it's called infighting and it does exist, and bystander effect effects ALL of them, regardless of their background and the situation.

Let's put you and Srecko in a situation that derives from my country.

You see a violent verbal dispute go about 2 women in a merchant's market, and a fight nearly broke out and it did not happen, the next few days came about and out of nowhere occultist were seeking this woman out, revealing that the one who started the conflict not only had ties to these 2 of these occultist, but hired them to do away with the other woman how they see fit. You witness this going about, so what would you or Srecko would do? I can tell you right now, such ones, their intent isn't a one and done beating, nor was it rape, occultist in that country will tear and gut people in the most gruesome fashion, the only reason they lure people and or take people by force. Do not expect the police because in rural areas, half of them are for these occultist and the other half are not wanting to take risk because they too will have to deal with their actions, for they become victim or their family members.

Clearly you would not be able to do a thing and even if you had, they'd attack you on the spot and or take you also and be twice as worse with you.

Nowadays this is on a minimum, but this can and will actually happen, it isn't too far from someone sending a Hitman, minus the wickedness.

This is one of many examples.

The JW I mentioned who witnessed the crime and it's illegality was a teenager around the ages 16-17, and granted he lived in that neighborhood and was preaching there, he witnessed the ordeal with the underage prostitute and those around here, if he did take action, it is not unknown to anyone of what would happen, if you or Srecko were in his shoes, most likely they will come for you, hunting you down, perhaps a drive-by should you say anything, or they would go for your family before they come after you, which is the common case with gangsters regarding someone they are targeting. Bystander Effect would kick in even though you want to do something, perhaps speak up but you cannot, mainly when you are one man, or in this situation, one man of color. The police can be corrupted also and even if you ask them, they'd set you up to be in the hands of the gangsters, and should you try to convince the underage prostitute to flee from the gang, she, who is already mentally linked with the gangsters, would also expose you.

So technically you have no ground here, the only viable option is to gain community support while remaining anonymous and it would most likely do something, however, the problems will persist for issues like this cannot be 100% purged from a neighborhood, let alone all over the United States and or around the Worldwide.

There is a time to be wise and at some of these times, one cannot be stupid when they know the risks, at the same time should you play your part, know that action can also reap consequences to others and or oneself.

Also check this out: 

    Hello guest!

It is complicated, but it is true.

 

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I always thought cows were female, having udders.. I thought it was bulls and steers that were male :) 

Chickens too are female here in UK. Males are cockerels or roosters.

But I think you are referring to this Macho male image of a man. Does that come from spending years in the Armed Forces or are you naturally a rough, tough type of guy ?  

I have no idea where S.M. lives but by the way he talks it must be a dark and dismal violent sort of place, full of voodoo, witch doctors, blood shed and other wickedness. 

 

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52 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

You misinterpret my words, a good Christian man, or woman, can be subjected to brutality by other Christians, it's called infighting and it does exist, and bystander effect effects ALL of them, regardless of their background and the situation.

Let's put you and Srecko in a situation that derives from my country.

You see a violent verbal dispute go about 2 women in a merchant's market, and a fight nearly broke out and it did not happen, the next few days came about and out of nowhere occultist were seeking this woman out, revealing that the one who started the conflict not only had ties to these 2 of these occultist, but hired them to do away with the other woman how they see fit. You witness this going about, so what would you or Srecko would do? I can tell you right now, such ones, their intent isn't a one and done beating, nor was it rape, occultist in that country will tear and gut people in the most gruesome fashion, the only reason they lure people and or take people by force. Do not expect the police because in rural areas, half of them are for these occultist and the other half are not wanting to take risk because they too will have to deal with their actions, for they become victim or their family members.

Clearly you would not be able to do a thing and even if you had, they'd attack you on the spot and or take you also and be twice as worse with you.

Nowadays this is on a minimum, but this can and will actually happen, it isn't too far from someone sending a Hitman, minus the wickedness.

This is one of many examples.

The JW I mentioned who witnessed the crime and it's illegality was a teenager around the ages 16-17, and granted he lived in that neighborhood and was preaching there, he witnessed the ordeal with the underage prostitute and those around here, if he did take action, it is not unknown to anyone of what would happen, if you or Srecko were in his shoes, most likely they will come for you, hunting you down, perhaps a drive-by should you say anything, or they would go for your family before they come after you, which is the common case with gangsters regarding someone they are targeting. Bystander Effect would kick in even though you want to do something, perhaps speak up but you cannot, mainly when you are one man, or in this situation, one man of color. The police can be corrupted also and even if you ask them, they'd set you up to be in the hands of the gangsters, and should you try to convince the underage prostitute to flee from the gang, she, who is already mentally linked with the gangsters, would also expose you.

So technically you have no ground here, the only viable option is to gain community support while remaining anonymous and it would most likely do something, however, the problems will persist for issues like this cannot be 100% purged from a neighborhood, let alone all over the United States and or around the Worldwide.

There is a time to be wise and at some of these times, one cannot be stupid when they know the risks, at the same time should you play your part, know that action can also reap consequences to others and or oneself.

Also check this out: 

    Hello guest!

It is complicated, but it is true.

 

The gangsters allow Jehovah's Witnesses to walk around preaching in these areas ?  And do the JW's carry guns? 

I'm so glad I'm here in a peaceful part of England, although you know we have murders here but they are rare occurrences.  

I believe that God finds a person, a person doesn't find God. But how does a person when found by God get out of such a situation as you have mentioned ? An under age prostitute. How will she be able to change her ways so that she can serve God ?  A drug dealer that wants to leave his organisation of criminals. It must be difficult for him to break away and start a new life. But, yes we know, with God all things are possible. 

 

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46 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

The gangsters allow Jehovah's Witnesses to walk around preaching in these areas ?  And do the JW's carry guns? 

I'm so glad I'm here in a peaceful part of England, although you know we have murders here but they are rare occurrences.  

I believe that God finds a person, a person doesn't find God. But how does a person when found by God get out of such a situation as you have mentioned ? An under age prostitute. How will she be able to change her ways so that she can serve God ?  A drug dealer that wants to leave his organisation of criminals. It must be difficult for him to break away and start a new life. But, yes we know, with God all things are possible. 

 

If you understood the gravity about what he is saying he speaks about what former Jehovah's Witnesses have said regarding current Jehovah's Witnesses. They preach that the Watchtower and at the Watchtower Headquarters that there are guns and other weapons of destruction that are hidden within the underbelly of Kingdomsl Hall, which was also brought up last November by former Jehovah's Witnesses. 

England isn't peaceful, you are only lucky to live where the heat has not touched you, but it has for others. Hate Crimes, Acid Attacks, Knife Attacks, even performed by those on bikes, Machetes, and it is even greater in London and Khan does not know his own country, as do most British people, you may be included in the bunch. 

SM is referring to something he posted before if you look at his history. Underage Prostitution is an issue in the United States, and myself, who lives there, the Tri State area, can tell you this is an actual problem. If I am not mistaken SM isn't a practitioner of voodoo, there are those in the Caribbean that do, I know because I am Dominican andthis is true when it comes to off limit areas. At the same time a lot of people are against voodoo and SM in his past comments made it known some of his family members had been killed by those who practice it if you look at his forum history and Blood and Crips are American gangs, some of them having affiliation to child/underage Prostitution wherever the money is coming from they will have a hand in it.

If the Jehovah's Witness who is most likely a black teenager did something  he would be killed. his family would be killed. And it is stupid to confront an underaged prostitute who is heavily connected to gang members, the most common being Bloods and Crips. If you were in that position, most likely you would have been killed, perhaps followed home and your actions caused the death of not only you alone but your family also and nearby folks who do not know what's going on. It's called street smarts and situations like this you should not get involved in, take example from 1 Thessalonians 4:11 to 18.

Yes some situations are grime, but it cannot always be helped. You cannot care for your family or friends regardless of the relationship if you are a corpse, you should be aware of that.

Blood and Crips as well as the MS 13 are hardcore in their craft and there is little chance of them breaking away for if you leave a hand it is a high chance you'll be assassinated in the most brutal fashion and be made an example of.

If you follow the British man TGA, you are aligned with his belief of Jehovah's Witnesses harboring firearms. This isn't the case because me or my family do not stockpile weapons under the halls nor do we stash poison or even think of killing a fellow man with poison. But you, former Jehovah's Witnesses wouldn't give a care if you influence a man to commit arson and riddle the halls with bullets, yet we do not act as others do, we do not seek vengeance but you guys make it seems we do.

The bystander effect can take up anyone and most likely it can be the case with you. Be very careful of London, Shadiq Khan was wrong to speak of how safe it is.

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7 minutes ago, Equivocation said:

If you understood the gravity about what he is saying he speaks about what former Jehovah's Witnesses have said regarding current Jehovah's Witnesses. They preach that the Watchtower and at the Watchtower Headquarters that there are guns and other weapons of destruction that are hidden within the underbelly of Kingdomsl Hall, which was also brought up last November by former Jehovah's Witnesses. 

England isn't peaceful, you are only lucky to live where the heat has not touched you, but it has for others. Hate Crimes, Acid Attacks, Knife Attacks, even performed by those on bikes, Machetes, and it is even greater in London and Khan does not know his own country, as do most British people, you may be included in the bunch. 

SM is referring to something he posted before if you look at his history. Underage Prostitution is an issue in the United States, and myself, who lives there, the Tri State area, can tell you this is an actual problem. If I am not mistaken SM isn't a practitioner of voodoo, there are those in the Caribbean that do, I know because I am Dominican andthis is true when it comes to off limit areas. At the same time a lot of people are against voodoo and SM in his past comments made it known some of his family members had been killed by those who practice it if you look at his forum history and Blood and Crips are American gangs, some of them having affiliation to child/underage Prostitution wherever the money is coming from they will have a hand in it.

If the Jehovah's Witness who is most likely a black teenager did something  he would be killed. his family would be killed. And it is stupid to confront an underaged prostitute who is heavily connected to gang members, the most common being Bloods and Crips. If you were in that position, most likely you would have been killed, perhaps followed home and your actions caused the death of not only you alone but your family also and nearby folks who do not know what's going on. It's called street smarts and situations like this you should not get involved in, take example from 1 Thessalonians 4:11 to 18.

Yes some situations are grime, but it cannot always be helped. You cannot care for your family or friends regardless of the relationship if you are a corpse, you should be aware of that.

Blood and Crips as well as the MS 13 are hardcore in their craft and there is little chance of them breaking away for if you leave a hand it is a high chance you'll be assassinated in the most brutal fashion and be made an example of.

If you follow the British man TGA, you are aligned with his belief of Jehovah's Witnesses harboring firearms. This isn't the case because me or my family do not stockpile weapons under the halls nor do we stash poison or even think of killing a fellow man with poison. But you, former Jehovah's Witnesses wouldn't give a care if you influence a man to commit arson and riddle the halls with bullets, yet we do not act as others do, we do not seek vengeance but you guys make it seems we do.

The bystander effect can take up anyone and most likely it can be the case with you. Be very careful of London, Shadiq Khan was wrong to speak of how safe it is.

Wow, someone rattle your cage ? You are joining forces with S.M. ?

You are counting me amongst violent people ? Just because i am an Ex-JW you think I'm a gangster ? 

Climb down off your high horse for a moment. If you are a JW you sure don't sound like one. 

I never said England was peaceful. I said "I'm so glad I'm here in a peaceful part of England"  I know what happens in other parts. My brother and sister live in our hometown of Reading, just 30 miles from London. I visit occasionally but only stay for the shortest of time. 

I also wasn't suggesting that S.M. practised Voodoo. I was suggesting that Voodoo was practised in the area where he lived, as he seems to know about such things. 

As for me 'following' anyone else, you are totally off course. You seem to be suggesting that anyone that is an Ex-JW must be part of a movement of some kind. How wrong you are. I am not that weak. I do not need holding up by others. I am my own man. 

I have no thoughts of JW's having firearms. i have no thoughts of JW's harming others physically. BUT i do have thoughts of the GB and JW Org harming people spiritually. 

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Just now, JOHN BUTLER said:

Wow, someone rattle your cage ? You are joining forces with S.M. ?

You are counting me amongst violent people ? Just because i am an Ex-JW you think I'm a gangster ? 

Climb down off your high horse for a moment. If you are a JW you sure don't sound like one. 

I never said England was peaceful. I said "I'm so glad I'm here in a peaceful part of England"  I know what happens in other parts. My brother and sister live in our hometown of Reading, just 30 miles from London. I visit occasionally but only stay for the shortest of time. 

I also wasn't suggesting that S.M. practised Voodoo. I was suggesting that Voodoo was practised in the area where he lived, as he seems to know about such things. 

As for me 'following' anyone else, you are totally off course. You seem to be suggesting that anyone that is an Ex-JW must be part of a movement of some kind. How wrong you are. I am not that weak. I do not need holding up by others. I am my own man. 

I have no thoughts of JW's having firearms. i have no thoughts of JW's harming others physically. BUT i do have thoughts of the GB and JW Org harming people spiritually. 

It isn't about joining him or not, but I understand what he is saying and since I live in America, I know who the bloods are the crips and the MS 13 gang and I know what role they play in child prostitution, if the money is there they will go for it, but the MS 13 major care is to inflict pain, killing people in the process. 

I never counted you and I don't see SM throwing all former Jehovah's Witnesses into one pot. He is aware of the different factions of them and the fact he mentioned TGA gives an idea of who among former Jehovah's Witnesses you follow. I know who TGA is and how he is with other former Jehovah's Witnesses. It is also hypocrisy to say he puts them all in one basket when he can differentiate whose who, which is the case for some of us who has been harrassed by former Jehovah's Witnesses, in my case it is the one called Faithful Slave and his friends.

Islanders, even for us Dominicans are aware of voodoo and some have lost family members to it. I thank Jehovah that no one I know or my family became victim of it, but the same cannot be said for others. Devil worshippers always have the jump on people because they are backed by those who support them, in Dominican Republic it isn't that big, but there are very small pockets. And no one in their right mind would confront them unless they want to also be a target. Only few policemen deal with them and military personnel. They wouldn't touch a white man or woman unless they somehow stumbled on their territory which is rare. In America and parts of the world there is Witchcraft and it is in media and books the real thing, the Bahamut followers do exist and we should not be affiliated with these people at all and avoid them, they represent Molech/Baal worshippers of old.

You sure? If Faithful Slave can rally people for his cause to take an aggressive approach while the other factions have both and or passive approach, their influence can spread. It isn't a surprise of someone in a similar situation can take up that same influence and not realize they follow it. I can say to you that you are nowhere near Faithful Slave who is on a journey to cause trouble, but the influence of the passive ones may get to you, which seems to be the case for most, this also goes for former Jehovah's, who side with Cedars and TGA that say we have firearms or the other guy Rick Fearon.

The Governing Body has not caused spiritual deprivation to me, they merely give the tools and encourage study and research. I take those tools and I grow spiritually coming to know the true God, Jehovah and know of his Son, Jesus Christ.

So you tell me, how has the organization caused me to be spiritual deprived when it enabled me to learn the Word?

What am I missing that you have found? What have you taken which I have not? What did you seek that I did not find?

If we are in the wrong, what are you preaching, do you know what you should be preaching?

Not related, but I can tell you right now there is one I recognize here who supports both the aggressive factions and the passive factions and spares no mercy to former Jehovah's Witnesses, even me, who are against these factions. I will refer to him as "Old Man".

Your picture shows you to be a good and fine family man but even the man of the house can begets ideas from those he sometimes agrees with.

I have not introduced myself, I am unknown presence, I am Jehovah's Witness and have been studying with them for I was a former Catholic. I came to know who the true God is and learned that Mary was not the Mother of God and also learned that the ghost of Mary was something of a false practice. Although now one, I am met with opposition from Former Jehovah's Witnesses who are famous among their communities, each of their own faction at the same time there are other former Jehovah's Witnesses who have been or are targets of the disgruntled former members and they support me also even defended me.

As for the odd unknown Language I tend to post, I do so so that no one recognizes what I say for a reason. If one can diciper it, good on them because I tend to keep such cryptic so I give you a freebie

this one says Greetings John Butler, dont brother translating it because you can't.

char(71)char(82)char(69)char(69)char(84)char(73)char(78)char(71)char(83) char(66)char(85)char(84)char(76)char(69)char(82)

 

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@JOHN BUTLER London is dangerous and has been for a while now. You should be aware of your surroundings at all times because the crime is higher whereas Shadiq Khan is making the fact that it is dangerous there. I pray for friends and families every day because of this. People with no care in their hearts commit such acts of harm to people. 

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@Equivocation Quote "I never counted you and I don't see SM throwing all former Jehovah's Witnesses into one pot. He is aware of the different factions of them and the fact he mentioned TGA gives an idea of who among former Jehovah's Witnesses you follow." 

It's 1.30 pm here in England. Time for me to have some lunch. But I'm actually laughing at this of which i quote from you. 

How do i put this in a pleasant manner ? I DO NOT FOLLOW ANYONE. I AM A MAN OF MY OWN THOUGHTS. I AM NOT GUIDED BY OTHER, AS YOU ARE. 

Just because you need to be following someone (your GB and Elders), don't judge me as the same. I do not need to follow anyone human. 

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2 hours ago, Equivocation said:

As for the odd unknown Language I tend to post, I do so so that no one recognizes what I say for a reason. If one can diciper it, good on them because I tend to keep such cryptic so I give you a freebie

funny, SM calling me "cryptic" .... so here i am not alone :)))))))))

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8 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

The gangsters allow Jehovah's Witnesses to walk around preaching in these areas ?  And do the JW's carry guns?

The Jehovah's Witnesses or a sole one? You do not know him, clearly. This JW is an African American teenager, minding his own business until he stumbled on such a thing from a distance. If he had acted, most likely he would be 6 feet under as we speak. For last time I made mention of this, he does live in a urban area and when he was done preaching he was in the area granted that he lived there, a teenager who lived with his relatives in that area, and it is not unknown to anyone that gang activity is common in urban locations, so is, in come cases prostitution, the only kicker here is the fact that child prostitution is a thing in the United States, especially in the South and the East Coast.

And no, they do not carry guns, I believe I made it clear in a discussion against Srecko and Witness. Anyone who follows Mr. Fearon to believe such nonsense is only kidding themselves - and conspiracy is something I refute and do not take kindly of.

8 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

I'm so glad I'm here in a peaceful part of England, although you know we have murders here but they are rare occurrences.  

There is no safety anywhere n the world for anything can happen, it is of chance, and not even in your own home you are safe, but it would depends on the location. London is indeed dangerous in some parts, yet there are those in politics who speak of 30% safety when people are in suffering and in fear, in some cases, on a daily basis. This also goes for young women and girls too who can be subjected to grooming gangs, should they be kidnapped.

8 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

I believe that God finds a person, a person doesn't find God. But how does a person when found by God get out of such a situation as you have mentioned ? An under age prostitute. How will she be able to change her ways so that she can serve God ?  A drug dealer that wants to leave his organisation of criminals. It must be difficult for him to break away and start a new life. But, yes we know, with God all things are possible. 

How are you so sure an underage prostitute will change so easily? If someone is affiliated with that practice long enough, perhaps born into it, you cannot assume such ones can change easily, and even if you make the attempt to do so, you not only put the underage prostitute at risk, but you yourself also, for the causer tends to get the worse of it than someone who they are after.

The case that was being made here is the crime levels, which is on equal footing that you guys in the UK, for you have knives, in the US it tends to be shoot first, ask questions later. Now, the example posed, regardless if an action was taken, it is a high risk of putting a target on your back and getting other bystanders who are not involved, killed or assassinated in the process if there is even the slightest connection with you.

It should be known to you that there is wickedness in the world, you have only proven my previous points when I am aware of the wickedness when you are focusing on a sole group of people, you have to understand that the ruler of this world is the Devil and his influence is everywhere, but those influenced by him does not define the decisions and actions of a group of people, be it a faith and or race.

6 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Wow, someone rattle your cage ? You are joining forces with S.M. ?

You are counting me amongst violent people ? Just because i am an Ex-JW you think I'm a gangster ? 

I do not believe he called you a gangster, he is only point you some of your views matching up with Mr. Gardener, granted you yourself did bring him up previously.

Clearly I profess that there is good and bad people, I do not mark all former JWs as the same for I had spoken of the difference now and I had in the past here, even to you I made mention of this, do you not recall your former responses?

6 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

I also wasn't suggesting that S.M. practised Voodoo. I was suggesting that Voodoo was practised in the area where he lived, as he seems to know about such things. 

And no, I am aware of occultism, I do not practice it. Just as a Father and Mother teaches their child about Strangers (Stranger-Danger as they say), the occultism was known to him after several of my family members had become victim to those who practice it, and even to this day such a thing stems into politics and the like.

As a child, even if I had the chance, I'd still be powerless to those who had done away with my family members, therefore I speak of the bystander effect as I have now and as I have before, for this isn't the first time I made comment to it.

6 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

As for me 'following' anyone else, you are totally off course. You seem to be suggesting that anyone that is an Ex-JW must be part of a movement of some kind. How wrong you are. I am not that weak. I do not need holding up by others. I am my own man. 

But you yourself had posted the gofundme to the very man who took on to the side of aggressive witnessing, as they say, the same man who rallied against another, fat shaming, giving death threats and the like. I can quote you even, as well as your comment on a regarding protest. For this man I even made mention, even responded to you at the time regarding this.

That being said, it is best to know the difference, at all times and know who among who has been affected by the actions of such ones, clearly it can be seen. I will leave this with you so you better understand as to where the other guy is coming from (After your ARC thread, you missed on this) :

 

 

8 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

I have no idea where S.M. lives but by the way he talks it must be a dark and dismal violent sort of place, full of voodoo, witch doctors, blood shed and other wickedness. 

Granted that I spoken about the US time and time again, it should be obvious of where I am. by the way I talk in general or based on the small brief response in example regarding bystander effect? I rather you not assume, but you are lucky because unlike others, I do not take offend to that besides.

Know this, I am totally aware of the works of the wicked on this world, I advise you to do the same because any small step can land you somewhere without knowing and you end up paying for it, knowingly and or unknowingly.

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4 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

funny, SM calling me "cryptic" .... so here i am not alone :)))))))))

Well now you got a friend, Srecko, one who is using language that isn't even real at random it seems.

3 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

About SM calling for JTR and my respond.

People today need some strong, courage and independent men like Abraham and David. For sure they would know how to handle situation SM described.   

That's funny, you called Abraham selfish, spoke ill of him and his wife, why is it now you show the respect? David had fought those who took up false gods, Abraham did everything in his power to have his family know who the True God is, and not adhere to the falsehood of others, how do you think they would handle the situation? You answered yourself long time ago regarding Abraham and his dealings with Egypt, having a total disregard of God's Promise to him. That being said, I brought up these examples for a reason.

If you think that taking such as  risk man's you a man, you should be aware of the price that hangs and the consequences that comes with it.

The response is very basic, but you never answered it, for in one situation something CAN be done and the other nothing CAN be done. I leave it with you to see which one is which.

That being said, I hold true to my word as to what I said in page 2 as with the bystander effect because it is indeed - true.

That being said, I am still waiting for your claim of political leaders who show support of laws not of God, or the Law of which you assume is in the Bible about hating your enemy - so far you've not spoken a word and it seems yielding upon others to evade such of what is asked of you.

Classic Srecko. I agree with you regarding about being cryptic.

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6 hours ago, Equivocation said:

It isn't about joining him or not, but I understand what he is saying and since I live in America, I know who the bloods are the crips and the MS 13 gang and I know what role they play in child prostitution, if the money is there they will go for it, but the MS 13 major care is to inflict pain, killing people in the process. 

Do not blame him for Mr. Butler does not know. He lives in the UK unaware of what takes place. The gangs who take up child prostitution as a means to make coin cannot cease from the communities, but some effort is necessary. What can be done is to teach the children, for gangs tend to go for younger ones to recruit them to their cause, as for the Ms-13 gang it is a mixed bag because they would kill/target anyone regardless of who they are. They enjoy and they take it as a challenge because of the Us president provoking them time and time again, and as of recent, some young ones paid for it, to make matters worse, they took the girl's mother too., Therefore it makes them a bit more lethal than Bloods, Crips, or perhaps the Latin Kings.

All in all, they are equally dangerous.

6 hours ago, Equivocation said:

I never counted you and I don't see SM throwing all former Jehovah's Witnesses into one pot. He is aware of the different factions of them and the fact he mentioned TGA gives an idea of who among former Jehovah's Witnesses you follow. I know who TGA is and how he is with other former Jehovah's Witnesses. It is also hypocrisy to say he puts them all in one basket when he can differentiate whose who, which is the case for some of us who has been harrassed by former Jehovah's Witnesses, in my case it is the one called Faithful Slave and his friends.

Former Jehovah's Witnesses have several groups, among them being small branches, you even have those who do not side with the aggressive or passive aggressive ones or their views. Such ones keep to themselves, move on, as they say, others tend to hold on to the life lessons they picked up from the faith, one man who spoken up during the whole Russian thing that went down.

Both Neil Gardner and the other guy are for aggressive witnessing, they were the ones responsible for running the man who spoke up off social media last year, and I made mention of this on the thread I linked to Mr. Butler.

That being said, granted they hit the Borough, Passaic County, the Jw Church in question was I think the only one that FS went to with his group to disrupt the service, and later on the whole girlfriend situation ensued. This took place after the Jewish Cemetery attack, as with the whole situation of the man who halted the Warick protest.

6 hours ago, Equivocation said:

Islanders, even for us Dominicans are aware of voodoo and some have lost family members to it. I thank Jehovah that no one I know or my family became victim of it, but the same cannot be said for others. Devil worshippers always have the jump on people because they are backed by those who support them, in Dominican Republic it isn't that big, but there are very small pockets. And no one in their right mind would confront them unless they want to also be a target. Only few policemen deal with them and military personnel. They wouldn't touch a white man or woman unless they somehow stumbled on their territory which is rare. In America and parts of the world there is Witchcraft and it is in media and books the real thing, the Bahamut followers do exist and we should not be affiliated with these people at all and avoid them, they represent Molech/Baal worshippers of old.

This I had explained, I suggest you check my other response in this regard.

6 hours ago, Equivocation said:

You sure? If Faithful Slave can rally people for his cause to take an aggressive approach while the other factions have both and or passive approach, their influence can spread. It isn't a surprise of someone in a similar situation can take up that same influence and not realize they follow it. I can say to you that you are nowhere near Faithful Slave who is on a journey to cause trouble, but the influence of the passive ones may get to you, which seems to be the case for most, this also goes for former Jehovah's, who side with Cedars and TGA that say we have firearms or the other guy Rick Fearon.

Mr. Butler is no FS, obviously, although the small support in even referring Mr. Gardner, I made a response to here before. I also spoke about the whole gun bunkers thing, which has been debunked.

 

6 hours ago, Equivocation said:

The Governing Body has not caused spiritual deprivation to me, they merely give the tools and encourage study and research. I take those tools and I grow spiritually coming to know the true God, Jehovah and know of his Son, Jesus Christ.

So you tell me, how has the organization caused me to be spiritual deprived when it enabled me to learn the Word?

What am I missing that you have found? What have you taken which I have not? What did you seek that I did not find?

If we are in the wrong, what are you preaching, do you know what you should be preaching?

It is not known to any Restoration to be Spiritually Deprived, which is false and at times this can be used against you because some people want to hit you where it hurts, but the reality is you are not Spiritually Deprived. If they have given you the tools to make research of the Bible, seek all that comes from Scripture, so in turn, you do not lack, but rather, learn.

You are not missing anything, nor as anything taken is not known to you or others. Mr. Butler himself is still seeking granted one of his other response elsewhere, as for you I do not know how long you were a JW, but by your comments, I must assume you are fairly young, for if emotion in regards to what ExJws have done somewhat effects you.

Your concern you should the good news gospel and the Messianic Age, this should be preached by ALL Christians, but some do not adhere to the Great Commission or the command of the Christ, or the followers of the Christ to the people, for that matter.

The discretion is who is doing things for God and his Christ and who is not.

6 hours ago, Equivocation said:

I have not introduced myself, I am unknown presence, I am Jehovah's Witness and have been studying with them for I was a former Catholic. I came to know who the true God is and learned that Mary was not the Mother of God and also learned that the ghost of Mary was something of a false practice. Although now one, I am met with opposition from Former Jehovah's Witnesses who are famous among their communities, each of their own faction at the same time there are other former Jehovah's Witnesses who have been or are targets of the disgruntled former members and they support me also even defended me.

Former JWs who do speak up are drowned out by disgruntled ones, hence the difference can be made. If you are a Catholic and this early as a JW it seems, you have a lot to learn. Clearly jumping on anyone who supports Gardner and FS isn't a great start, but again, I see where you are coming from after what took place.

even in bible times, some of God's people had something of the like, but later on, they make the change. Be mild and meek always, do not let someone who has a hatred towards you make you feel this way, this is coming from a guy who is of color who deals with discrimination, in my case, if it makes you feel any better, as of recent, I was called out that because I am black, I cannot know the Bible, although it was random and has struck a cord, I was calm, but somewhat strict in my words of the bible and the demon filled one had went his way when he was exposed as a fool.

The good thing is you are quick to forgive, so keep that for it goes hand in hand with the foremost commandments and the laws that hang by it in terms of Bible Principles.

6 hours ago, Equivocation said:

As for the odd unknown Language I tend to post, I do so so that no one recognizes what I say for a reason. If one can diciper it, good on them because I tend to keep such cryptic so I give you a freebie

this one says Greetings John Butler, dont brother translating it because you can't.

char(71)char(82)char(69)char(69)char(84)char(73)char(78)char(71)char(83) char(66)char(85)char(84)char(76)char(69)char(82)

Other than that, the symbol/font, whatever it is, it is a bit glaring to the eyes just as all caps tends is also glaring to the eyes.

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9 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

But I think you are referring to this Macho male image of a man. Does that come from spending years in the Armed Forces or are you naturally a rough, tough type of guy ?  

I am a very gentile, kind, considerate person who speaks in a low tone of voice, never argues, and tries to be helpful to every one.

Everywhere around me is a secure, safe space that people can depend on for succor and refuge. Pleasantness and peace surrounds me, and mine.  People of evil intent avoid me, and I avoid them. 

I have lived and worked in areas where sandbags and barbed wire coiled up on the front porch was normal, and hotels on the second floor had to have drapes pulled to keep from being shot at.

I consider such things as part of life, and it does not upset me at all.  I just make sure I am careful, and do not confront anyone, and keep a "thousand yard stare", for potential danger.  

I am 72 years old, and never been in trouble with any gang or government, never arrested, and never questioned by police except for one time when I was taking some pet turtles to the James River, in Virginia.

Perhaps my general appearance helps in some way ... as I am 6'-6" tall and weigh 287 pounds, and carry a silenced 9mm handgun with a green laser in a shoulder holster under my left armpit, and two extra magazines and a Mark VI Vietnam era bayonet under the right one., and a .38 cal. handgun in my pocket ... all completely "street legal", with appropriate "paperwork".

I also carry several cans of dog food, and bottles of water in the trunk of my car, in case there are any stray dogs that look hungry.

When I went out in Service in high crime areas with a bunch of Sisters, I have heard them across the street say to each other ... "Don't worry, Brother Rook is watching over us."

That makes me smile, because I was.

 

 

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@James Thomas Rook Jr. The Vietnam War was crazy and a violent time, the US has brought that upon themselves by sending the young to fight an old man's war to correct an irrelevant problem, with some wishing why they are even there to begin with. The powers that be juggles the lives of the weary and gullible.

That being said you beat me by 2 inches, 6.4 ft. Anyways, you have to always be vigilant because nowadays we have people who are crazed who walk among us, and will commit to vile action at random and or by being provoked.

But do not worry, in some areas, they won't attack an Attorney or a Missionary, but you still have to be careful.

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I dislike leaving things up to chance.

My second gun also has a laser, and assuming that I have not been killed first, I can hit center mass in two directions at once, with peripheral vision.

The price of Liberty, Freedom, and Peace ... is eternal vigilance, and superior competency.

What.  Me Worry   .jpg

 

 

..... AND .... pure dumb luck.

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@Space Merchant Quote But you yourself had posted the gofundme to the very man who took on to the side of aggressive witnessing, as they say, the same man who rallied against another, fat shaming, giving death threats and the like. I can quote you even, as well as your comment on a regarding protest. For this man I even made mention, even responded to you at the time regarding this.

You have totally lost me on this one. The only thing i can think of is the London protests, which i thought were going to be peaceful or even silent protests just using banners / slogans. However i found out afterwards that it was not an Anti JW protest but more like an Anti God protest. A homoesxual man protesting and saying that God did not exist was one thing that I disagreed with, and I got muck slung at me for disagreeing with it,  from the organisers. 

So quote me, and make me remember, if you think I'm in favour of aggressive protests....The truth is I am only in favour of sensible peaceful protests and yes i think they can work well. 

As for my question about gangsters allowing JW's to preach in the area, it was a genuine question. And also my question about do JW's carry a gun for protection in such areas, that was also a genuine question. Remember please I'm in England, i do not know how things are in the USA. Yes we have crime here as well but it still feels safe enough to walk the streets in daylight. Well here in Devon it feels safe anyway, maybe not so much in London. 

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James you are so funny i don't know what to believe and what not to believe from you. I'm not saying you tell lies but you make it all sound like a joke. I'll have to just pass it by because i honestly don't know how much of what you say is supposed to be taken seriously. 

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4 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

You have totally lost me on this one. The only thing i can think of is the London protests, which i thought were going to be peaceful or even silent protests just using banners / slogans. However i found out afterwards that it was not an Anti JW protest but more like an Anti God protest. A homoesxual man protesting and saying that God did not exist was one thing that I disagreed with, and I got muck slung at me for disagreeing with it,  from the organisers. 

Yes, and the one regarding JWs was of Gardner's design and his followers, you even brought it up before. There are countless of protesting in the UK, I know the situation with Tommy Robinson, although he isn't one I adhere to on some cases, for I do not see the actions of one person define a whole group, your government tried to have this man killed in prison by the very people he spoke against, to add more fuel to the fire, this is the same government that let men run free who were part of a grooming gang, a child prostitution ring.

That being said, Mr. Gardner isn't someone who is against JWs only, he is against the Bible itself and often mocks Scripture and should anyone say otherwise about the Bible, he bashes them and others follow suit.

You think that is crazy, several months ago a Canadian woman was banned from the UK, a Robinson supporter of the same media group, her name is Lauren Southern, alongside Brittany Pettibone.

As with all protests, there is also influence, and granted it was mention what is going on in the UK, some things said and done can spark hate crimes.

4 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

So quote me, and make me remember, if you think I'm in favour of aggressive protests....The truth is I am only in favour of sensible peaceful protests and yes i think they can work well. 

And yet you were not too shy to bring forth Mr. Gardner when at the time I made it known to you as to his card in all of this.

4 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

As for my question about gangsters allowing JW's to preach in the area, it was a genuine question. And also my question about do JW's carry a gun for protection in such areas, that was also a genuine question. Remember please I'm in England, i do not know how things are in the USA. Yes we have crime here as well but it still feels safe enough to walk the streets in daylight. Well here in Devon it feels safe anyway, maybe not so much in London. 

Gangsters do not allow JWs to preach in the area. JWs are all over the place, as you said, earthwide, all of them do not live in a good areas as you do, for in the US, there is urban areas, a whole lot of it due to how the government has deprived the people, shutting down businesses and a list of other things. This results in a breeding ground for gangsters, the most common being Bloods, Crips and Latin Kings, all of them in the East Coast, there are several others who have a hold down in the South-East, such as Zoe Pound, Sons of Silence, Latin Syndicate, La Raza Nation, Highwaymen, there is over a dozen - no one, even JWs have no control of gangs taking up an area, for they, as with the community are to be vigilant, even schools for most gang recruitment is done in schools by means of hazing and other things, and eventually an initiation which involves the killing of an innocent person.

Well if you are unaware you would not be quick to say to the other guy of comparing you to a gangster. MS-13 is by far the most violent one as of late, if not, even more crazed and, hellishly dangerous. the very reason why when they somehow show up in your area, the police will not help you, even if their presence is brief, therefore, by the instant of a millisecond you will the bystander effect take hold of you because knowing them, you can even tell by looking at them, that they can do very very bad things to you and your family and or anything connected to you. In the example posed, it was an African American JW, a teenager, who does live in a urban area during that time, as of now he does not live there anymore, but he did see gangsters, possibly bloods granted bloods only wear red and will shoot quickly to anyone wearing a solid blue, for blue represents crips. They pimp out young girls to people in order to make money and should you do anything about it, even trying to convince the girl who is hard-pressed that you are attacking her, chances are you would not live seconds later and or live through the night, MS-13 does the same thing but it is a whole different beast on it's own and clearly any JWs, mainly from the Black and Latino communities wouldn't think twice of crossing paths with them. It would be very rare, but some of them will simply mock God and the bible, dare you say something the next place you will end up at is either the nearest hospital in critical condition or simply the morgue.

I will link this here so you have some understanding: 

    Hello guest!

And one of the recent stories of a mother who played hero to save her girl, but ended up in the cemetery - it is that bad and the very reason as to why the bystander effect kicks in for some, knowingly and or unknowingly.

    Hello guest!

The other ones that is most common in the East Coast and Tri-state areas:

    • Hello guest!
    • Hello guest!
    • Hello guest!

 

That being said, JWs do not harbor guns in their churches, something of which I made very clear to both Srecko and Witness. And there is a clear exchange between a Christian and an ExJW support of Fearon in the other thread, as with their debate on weddings and rings.

Mr. Butler, even in England you have gangs, I already mentioned one to you, The Grooming Gang, which targets solely British girls, primary targets being 16 and under, and members of such a group tend to get a free pass in the UK granted that Tommy Robinson had been arrested and jailed in an attempt to stop them, only this time he was not trying to compare all Muslims are child kidnapping pedophiles, he solely targeted the ones responsible for the Groom Gangs, but his followers began attacking all Muslims at Hyde Park.

And it is fairly easy to rally up a mob in the UK, there was a situation in August whereas some Americans, although I dislike them and their antics, were attacked, their father being punched in the face as he ran. All it took was an exchange of insults and influence to rally up a large mob of young teenagers to cause problems spreading hate and perhaps willing to kill if they had the chance, but they wanted to see a fight, for if that was not the case, breaking news would have been on your TV and perhaps the media in the UK will pull it's false flag antics as professed by Robinson, for this does happen a lot over there.

The UK isn't too far off from us in the US. You have Sectarian, drug and organized crime gangs, minus the flashy colors. They tend to wield knives and carry acid in the UK, while here it is guns, even assault rifles such as an AK-74, something of which is owned by gangsters in the South-East of the US, for example, Florida.

4 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Well here in Devon it feels safe anyway, maybe not so much in London. 

I suggest you be vigilant and always on guard. I can already see you are unaware. You do realize at some point, some time ago that drug gangs were targeting Devon? They consider Devon to be an untapped market for profits - a gold mine. I can assure you that this is not the only thing keeping criminals from entering such an area.

London in of itself is a mess, one of my sources spoke about Khan and it isn't too far from the truth in terms of the state of safety in London. 

That being said, granted you live in the area, make the research and be vigilant, and keep in mind that even confronting such ones can pose a risk to you and others and innocence strangers in connection to you, for every action reaps a positive and or a negative, which in turn reaps consequence.

Therefore these gangsters, should not be of any concern if you avoid them. Should you run into them, it would be, in some instances they mock you or give you a nod, do not give into to their advances, this is rare in the US, however a bit common to a community of blacks and latinos compared to non-black/latinos.

Granted we are talking about inspired text, best to keep this one in memory.

  • 1 Thessalonians 4:11-18 - [11] and to aspire to live quietly, and to mind your own affairs, and to work with your hands, as we instructed you, [12] so that you may walk properly before outsiders and be dependent on no one.

The Coming of the Lord

  • [13] But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. [14] For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. [15] For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord,[a] that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. [16] For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. [17] Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. [18] Therefore encourage one another with these words.

That being said, the Missionary Life regarding Evangelicalism for some Christians is not an easy one, just as it was not easy for the Christ, nor his disciples, nor the people of the church. It applies to us today.

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3 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Don't take ANY of it seriously.

Enjoy life, be happy, exult in the Day that Jehovah made.

As an aside ... my last post was 100% true.

I am glad it was funny!

There is a time to be serious and a time to not be serious. For action begets results, be it positive and or negative.

That being said, men of war who cause problems were in the wrong to send you to a place you do not want to go, just as they have with Iraq, Libya and a list of other places.

These people emulate the same as the one called General Wesley Clark and look at what the sweat of their hands of done to the countries mentioned and the fact now Israel is trigger happy.

 

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      ▪ We appeal to the community of Jehovah's Witnesses to ensure better support for and recognition of victims and alleged victims via measures such as the following:
      o Providing more explicit information regarding the options for reporting the abuse externally or filing a police report and/or seeking external help as well as providing clear assistance with these external channels.
      o Setting up an internal reporting centre for victims of sexual abuse, with adequate knowledge of the subject and of the internal and external options for victims. Clear agreements must be established within this reporting centre concerning timely engagement of external parties for the purposes of reporting the offence and/or supporting the victim.
      o Compiling annual reports regarding the activities of the internal reporting centre in relation to its own website, fellow believers and the public.
      o Training and educating elders in how to handle in cases of sexual abuse, in order to better equip them to provide support to victims.
      o Investing in openness and transparency in relation to sexual abuse and how it is handled.
      o Initiating cultural change that establishes a clearer position for women.
      o Engaging in discussions within the community and with other parties - such as politicians, the police, the authorities and the Reclaimed Voices foundation - concerning how to prevent and handle sexual abuse.
      ▪ Furthermore, the results of this study could help to ensure relevant parties - such as the municipal health services and the police - are better informed of the influence of closed communities on victims of abuse.
      ▪ The Netherlands board of Jehovah's Witnesses actively cooperated with our study. The board also stated that it complies with the law of the land and the Reclaimed Voices foundation confirmed this policy principle. This situation provides the Dutch political system with the opportunity to take action and enter into talks with the community about patterns, church rules, other rules, customs, structures and their consequences for the willingness to report sexual abuse within the community of Jehovah's Witnesses. Within this context, a law is being considered that would make it mandatory for the Jehovah's Witnesses and other organisations to report instances or suspicions of sexual abuse to the police. Other countries have already introduced this type of law. Assessment of the usefulness and desirability of this instrument for the Jehovah's Witness community in the Netherlands will require further research.
      ▪ Finally, we recommend supplementing the independent scientific research presented during this report with additional future research. After all, the number of missing values/responses for a number of variables and the self-reports presented here imply that establishing truth is not the purpose of this report. Furthermore, no solid causal links concerning willingness to report sexual abuse can be derived from this report. Further research would be necessary to determine how applicable the findings concerning sexual abuse are to the Jehovah's Witness community in the Netherlands and in other countries, as well as within other organisations. However, the research presented in this study into sexual abuse within the Jehovah's Witness community in the Netherlands provides ample grounds for future research to establish a more comprehensive picture of the people reporting sexual abuse, the people not reporting sexual abuse, and the perpetrators of sexual abuse among Jehovah's Witnesses in the Netherlands and in other countries.

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    • By Srecko Sostar
      I found interesting video, with very important evidences about few subjects. Video took place in Cardiff, Wales 2019. Summer Convention "Love never fails".
      1) To what extend JW members are equipped for reasoning and how much they are willing to defend own teachings and beliefs?
      2) To what measure JW members who are Convention delegates are under control of people in "orange vests"? And why they allow them to be under their control?
      3) Why JW members who wear "orange vests" and are in official capacity are not willing to defend WT published teachings? 
      4) Does it mean how every JW member who make some sort of sin in his life as JW congregant is "professed JW" while the state of sin lasts?
      5) Does he/she in time before and after sinning is considered as "genuine JW"?
      .....and some more.
      Enjoy in good material for thinking and discussion. 
       Sadly, child sexual abuse is a worldwide plague, and true Christians have been affected by this plague. Why? “Wicked men and impostors” abound, and some may try to enter the congregation. ( Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ) In addition, some professing to be a part of the congregation have succumbed to perverted fleshly desires and have sexually abused children. Let us discuss why child abuse is such a grave sin. Then we will consider how elders handle instances of serious wrongdoing, including child abuse,  and how parents can protect their children. - 
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    • By Queen Esther
      Did you know all this about the Bible?
      Enjoy this 1 page infographic packed with amazing info.
    • By Srecko Sostar
      In view of the foregoing, what can we conclude? When Jesus comes for judgment during the great tribulation, he will find that the faithful slave has been loyally dispensing timely spiritual food to the domestics. Jesus will then delight in making the second appointment—over all his belongings. Those who make up the faithful slave will get this appointment when they receive their heavenly reward, becoming corulers with Christ. -  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.
      “All his belongings” over which the “faithful and discreet slave” class is appointed must refer to all the spiritual things that belong to him on earth in connection with his established heavenly kingdom - 
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      1) members ??
      2) real estate and money ??
       
    • By Srecko Sostar
      Dear reader.
      You have often come across terms, God's holy spirit and God's love.
      You have also often prayed for the favor of God, among other things asking that God's holy spirit help you, guide you, to have a spirit. Some Bible passages say that God gives something to people.
      We find expressions that say how God gives:
      - his spirit without measure - John 3:34.
      - a certain measure of faith - Rom 12: 3
      - a measure of grace - Eph. 4: 7
      - measure of authority - 2 Cor. 10:13
      - a double measure of blessing - Isaiah 61: 7
      - double measure of inheritance - Deut 21:17
      - double measure for bad deeds - Rev. 18: 6
      Also how a man seeks or receives from another man:
      - double measure of spirit - 2 Cr. 2: 9
      - double honor - 1 Tim. 5:17
       
      There are also allegations relating to love. How love is given or received and under what circumstances:
      And he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him. ”- John 14:21
      For God loved the world, - John 3:16
      I love those who love me - Prov 8:17
      Your love, O LORD, reaches to the heavens - Psalm 36: 5 -7
      I have loved you with everlasting love; - Jer 31: 3
       
      From these statements we can see that love also works under certain circumstances. Sometimes it's eternal, going to heaven. Sometimes it is conditioned because he says: I will love you if you love me", "if you obey, listen me".
      Based on the paragraphs that speak of giving / receiving a spirit, I could conclude that God gives the holy spirit to those who seek it, and those whose hearts are pure receive that spirit from God. When GB claims that they make mistakes in word and deed because they are not perfect and because they are not "spirit-inspired," then that is just an excuse. When they claim that they are not "inspired by the spirit of God," that would mean that God does not give his spirit to anyone, not even to them. So, if they, as "God's elected," "anointed," cannot be "inspired," then they are actually sending the message that no one else can be "inspired." And then such a claim has the consequence, meaning, that God and his spirit are not able to be active. God works through his spirit, doesn't he? Well, he created the universe with his spirit ?! He wrote the Bible with his spirit ?! He uttered prophecies with his spirit ?! And today the spirit is unable to act on the few people sitting in Warwick?
      Does God lie when he says, "... for God gives the Spirit without limit. - John. 3:34
      Is the problem in the spirit of God? Or is it a problem in humans? :))
       
       
    • By Srecko Sostar
      In the OT, there is a direct command, “Thou shalt not kill (murder)!” This command should contain God's view of human life, which emphasizes that life is holy, sacred before God, but also that people must have the same feeling about the lives of other people around them.
      By reading the Bible, which describes the events before and after the occurrence of this commandment, we can see that this commandment has no absolute power. Within the same set of legal provisions, there are other commandments that were binding on the Israelites, too. For example, commands like; "Don't steal, don't lie, don't commit fornication ...". These commandments should never have been ignored or mitigated by some extraordinary circumstances.
      The specificity of this commandment, "You shall not kill," is evident in the fact that it was not of valid, obligation for all men and for all circumstances. Powerful individuals in Israel sometimes making their own decisions to go on military campaigns against others (Israelis and non-Israelis) The law also justified killing for revenge.
      In some other places, God commands the death penalty against an individual. Also, the Bible describes that God instituted great actions that justified killing of other people. These were most often military actions aimed at killing soldiers of the enemy army, but also their families. The killings of these other tribes and people were justified on the basis of several facts: 1) they were not Israelis  2) they lived in territory that the Israel nation were to conquer for themselves, 3) they belonged to other religions.
      The execution of the death penalty for a crime still exists today in some societies and legal systems. Obviously, the death penalty decision is based on balance. The one who killed must be killed. But from some other biblical examples we have seen that murder is not the only crime punishable by death. The disobedient child was also sentenced to death. Different religious affiliations or different religious beliefs also led to the death penalty. Adultery was punished by death.
      From what we have described so far, we can see how the command, "shall not kill," had a stretched meaning. It is therefore necessary to look at religious practices that are not new but may draw some parallels in symbolism and meaning. As you may already guessed, it is about an act of symbolic "killing" that is carried out in such a way to exclude (disfellowship) another person from a particular social (religious) group in a specific way - by ignoring aka shunning. Shunning (this is about JW organization in particular) can be made because of two conclusions.
      The first conclusion is reached by an individual JW member who believes that another member of the congregation has wronged/sinned against the Bible and its principles to the extent that he / she personally presents a spiritual anomaly (in the form of a spiritual illness or threat) and decides to "label" particular person as inappropriate for him to have socializing contacts. He seeks to avoid contact and minimize any literal and spiritual communion.
      In second conclusion, the conviction of the inappropriateness of a member is made by the body of the elders. The judgment may be based on the morally inappropriate behavior of an individual member, or it may be that an individual no longer agrees with the ideological and organizational structure or with the theological solutions of the organization what made him/her as "hostile element".
      This is when a person is removed from congregational members aka "spiritually killed" in such a way to excommunicate (dfd) them (he,she) from the community and impose a ban on almost every contact with the dfd person. The ban has few variations and interpretations of how the shunning should be carried out. But the very core of such a demand not to contact the excluded person is evident from the widespread practice that JW members have consistently implemented - the excluded (dfd) is not even greeted with the simplest “Good afternoon” greeting (hallo) on the street.
      JW's want to be peaceful people who go to jail in some countries because not want even to carry weapon in mandatory military service. They don't want take self-defense courses even for protect themselves when attacked. But they are motivated to be active in using spiritual weapons and warfare against ex members who are in a disagreement with doctrinal issues. And "killing" them with shunning.  
      What are your thoughts? 
       
       
       
    • By James Thomas Rook Jr.
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      Posted by Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. on November 9, 2019 at 4:20 am  
      The Supreme Court of Canada heard arguments Thursday in a lawsuit against a religious congregation’s “shunning” practice, but the congregation and several other groups contend the justices had no right to even take part in the case.
      Randy Wall, a real estate agent, filed the suit against the Highwood congregation of the Jehovah’s Witnesses organization in Calgary, Alberta.
      Wall was expelled from the congregation for getting drunk and not be properly repentant, court records said. He pursued an appeals process through the Jehovah’s Witnesses then went to court because he said the Witnesses’ “shunning” — the practice of not associating with him in any way — hurt his business.
      He explained his two occasions of drunkenness related to “the previous expulsion by the congregation of his 15-year-old daughter.”
      A lower court opinion said: “Even though the daughter was a dependent child living at home, it was a mandatory church edict that the entire family shun aspects of their relationship with her. The respondent said the edicts of the church pressured the family to evict their daughter from the family home. This led to … much distress in the family.”
      The “distress” eventually resulted in his drunkenness, Wall said.
       
      Wall submitted to the court arguments that about half his client base, members of various Jehovah’s Witnesses congregations, then refused to conduct business with him. He alleged the “disfellowship had an economic impact on the respondent.”
      During high court arguments Thursday, the congregation asked the justices to rule that religious congregations are immune to such claims in the judicial system.
      The lower courts had ruled that the courts could play a role in determining whether or not such circumstances rise to the level of violating civil rights or injuring a “disfellowshipped” party.
      The rulings from the Court of Queen’s Bench and the Alberta Court of Appeals said Wall’s case was subject to secular court jurisdiction.
      A multitude of religious and political organizations joined with the congregation in arguing that Canada’s courts should not be involved.
      The Justice Center for Constitutional Freedoms said in a filing: “The wish or desire of one person to associate with an unwilling person (or an unwilling group) is not a legal right of any kind. For a court, or the government, to support such a ‘right’ violates the right of self-determination of the unwilling parties.”
      Previous case law has confirmed the right of religious or private voluntary groups to govern themselves and dictate who can be a member.
      But previously rulings also reveal there is room for the court system to intervene when the question centers on property or civil rights.
      The Association for Reformed Political Action described the case as having “profound implications for the separation of church and state.”
      It contends the court should keep its hands off the argument.
      “Secular judges have no authority and no expertise to review a church membership decision,” said a statement from Andre Schutten, a spokesman for the group. “Church discipline is a spiritual matter falling within spiritual jurisdiction, not a legal matter falling within the courts’ civil jurisdiction. The courts should not interfere.”
      John Sikkema, staff lawyer for ARPA, said: “The issue in this appeal is jurisdiction. A state actor, including a court, must never go beyond its jurisdiction. The Supreme Court must consider what kind of authority the courts can or cannot legitimately claim. We argue that the civil government and churches each have limited and distinct spheres of authority. This basic distinction between civil and spiritual jurisdiction is a source of freedom and religious pluralism and a guard against civic totalism.”
      He continued: “Should the judiciary have the authority to decide who gets to become or remain a church member? Does the judiciary have the authority to decide who does or does not get to participate in the sacraments? Church discipline is a spiritual matter falling within spiritual jurisdiction, not a legal matter falling within the courts’ civil jurisdiction. The courts should not interfere. Here we need separation of church and state.”
      The Alberta Court of Appeal, however, suggested the case was about more than ecclesiastical rules.
      “Because Jehovah’s Witnesses shun disfellowshipped members, his wife, other children and other Jehovah’s Witnesses were compelled to shun him,” that lower court decision said. “The respondent asked the appeal committee to consider the mental and emotional distress he and his family were under as a result of his duaghter’s disfellowship.”
      The church committee concluded he was “not sufficiently repentant.”
      The ruling said “the only basis for establishing jurisdiction over a decision of the church is when the complaint involves property and civil rights,” and that is what Wall alleged.
      “Accordingly, a court has jurisdiction to review the decision of a religious organization when a breach of the rules of natural justice is alleged.”
       
                     
    • By Srecko Sostar
      WT Society and JW Organization looking on Education of Priests in "worldly" Schools and Universities who give them Diploma or Credentials, as something that is not needed for serving God in any capacity. It doesn't matter if you are rank and file member or serving as Ministerial servant or an Elder in JW congregation. On the contrary, "higher education", no matter is it question about religious or secular education, is viewed from most JW congregants, as something that is in opposition to God, His Word - Bible, and in fact it is product of corrupted World which is run by devil.  
      For this and some other reasons, WT publications giving advice to members not to go to University to get "higher education". Instead, they say, it is enough to finish Elementary school or some Higher school to be able to get some job that will provide you basic material status.
      What "flock" need is possible to get, to find through religious educational program provide by WT Society through congregational meetings, courses, some additional  programs for specific groups inside organization (pioneers, elders, missionaries, etc.) One specific instrument for education  is Gilead School.
      JW members and leaders are very proud of fact how God provide them best education through Bible and Organization. And how they not need any Credentials or Diploma to be able to prove how they have sufficient knowledge, expertise and ability for handle with Bible and to educate other people about God. Who need peace of paper as proof you have qualification to work in such spiritual field?
      Jworg web site:
       Application was made to the U.S. government for foreign students to be admitted under non immigration student visa provisions. In response, the U.S. Office of Education gave recognition to Gilead School as offering education comparable to professional colleges and educational institutions. Thus, since 1953, U.S. consuls throughout the world have had the Watchtower Bible School of Gilead on their list of approved educational institutions. As of April 30, 1954, this school appeared in the publication entitled “Educational Institutions Approved by the Attorney General.” -  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.
      WT Society say how "worldly education" is of no worth for future life in Paradise, even more, it is inspired by devil and can corrupt JW young members, WHY this same WT Society had need to be RECOGNIZED by Educational worldly system, about whom they speaking so bad? For JW students who need visa for US to be able to come to Gilead School. This is technical reason. And Gilead School, by this action, found itself on worldly list with all other undesirable institutions who "spiritually corrupting people". 
      Do Gilead School students get some "credentials or diploma" in shape of paper after they successfully finished program? Because they "graduate class".
    • By James Thomas Rook Jr.
      Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.   The Supreme Court Rejected a Case About the Jehovah’s Witnesses and Sex Abuse
      Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. October 8, 2019   Yesterday, the Supreme Court announced that Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. concerning the organization that oversees the Jehovah’s Witnesses. We can breathe a huge sigh of relief that the case won’t be overturned. (In that link, it’s case 19-40 on page 42.)
       
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      The case, which involved child molestation and religious secrecy, centered around an incident that took place on July 15, 2006.
      J.W., a nine-year-old girl with Jehovah’s Witness parents, was invited to her first slumber party at the home of Gilbert Simental. He had a daughter her age, so that wasn’t too weird. Two other girls (sisters) were also at the party. These families all knew and trusted Simental because, while he was no longer a local Witness leader, he had spent more than a decade as an elder in the faith. He was a religious leader who stepped down, he said, to spend more time with his son. They believed him. They all respected him. It’s why they allowed their girls into his home.
      During that party, everyone got into a pool in the backyard… including Simental. And he proceeded to molest J.W. and the sisters. He did it again later that night. The sisters eventually told their parents, who reported Simental to local Witness elders (which is what they’re taught to do in these situations).
      Simental confessed to some of the allegations, and the elders basically gave him a faith-based slap on the wrist: a reprimand that had no meaning outside church circles.
      Things changed only when the sisters’ school principal learned about what happened and, as required by law, reported the abuse to local law enforcement. Police soon contacted J.W.’s family asking for their story, but after consulting with the Witnesses, her father chose not to speak with the cops.
      It was a year later when J.W., then 10 years old, told her parents what Simental did to her in the pool. It infuriated them, and they told the Witness elders that they wanted a restraining order against him. The elders told him not to do that since it would require informing the police about what Simental did — and they preferred to keep his actions private.
      Here’s the bigger problem: There’s reason to believe the Witnesses were aware that Simental was a child molester… and they kept it from the families. Simental was allowed to be a religious leader — earning respect from the community — even though higher-ups in the religion knew that he shouldn’t be around children.
      It raised an important question: How much blame did the Witnesses deserve for what happened at that pool party?
      J.W.’s family eventually filed a criminal lawsuit against Simental and a separate civil suit against the Watchtower Society (the Witnesses’ governing organization). They basically said the Witnesses should have informed congregation members about Simental and stopped him from being around children. They never should have allowed him to be a religious leader.
      The Watchtower Society’s argument? They didn’t know Simental was a child molester, and the pool party occurred after he was no longer a religious leader, and the slumber party wasn’t a church-sponsored event, so leave them out of this.
      (To be clear, I’m simplifying the details of this case and the legal journey quite a bit.)
      When this case went to trial in California, J.W.’s family demanded that the Watchtower Society produce documents relating to what they knew about child molesters within the faith. The Witnesses had already admitted to keeping lists of problematic leaders along with their specific “crimes” — similar to the Catholic Church. If Simental was on that list — from 1997, nearly a decade before the pool incident — it would essentially be a smoking gun showing the Witnesses knew he was a threat to kids but did nothing about it.
      But the Witnesses refused to hand over that material. They treated it like Catholics treat confession: It’s private information, they argued, and to reveal what was said internally would violate their religious beliefs.
      J.W.’s family didn’t buy that argument. The information they wanted wasn’t bound by clergy-penitent confessional privilege. It’s not like Simental told the elders what he had done in order to confess his sins. He was caught. The Witnesses were merely shielding him from legal punishment.
      In the criminal trial, Witnesses elders were forced to admit their practices and that the private discussions they had about abusive clergy members were not considered confidential under the law.
      Mark O’Donnell, writing at JWSurvey, Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. :
       
        Simental’s appeal got him nowhere. He’s in prison today. But there were still so many questions about what responsibility the Witnesses had in this whole matter.  
      J.W.’s family wanted to know why Simental, a known pedophile, was promoted within the Jehovah’s Witnesses. Why did they allow him to be around children? Why didn’t they warn families? Why did they just give him a slap on the wrist?
      In 2013, the civil trial began against the Watchtower Society, but again, the Witnesses didn’t want to provide necessary documents. They eventually lost the case. In 2015, the Riverside Superior Court of California awarded J.W. a judgment of $4,016,152.39. This past December, the Fourth District Court of Appeal in California Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. .
      You get the idea: The Witnesses refused to hand over internal data, presumably because it would’ve been like handing over a loaded gun. So the courts had no choice but to assume the plaintiff was telling the truth and the Watchtower Society was negligent in their handling of Simental.
      Earlier this year, in a Hail Mary attempt to reverse their punishment, the Watchtower Society Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. . They wanted the justices to say that documents relating to child abuse within a religious group can be kept confidential.
      Here’s how the Witnesses’ attorney introduced his case to the justices. (You don’t need a law degree to see how he just completely dismissed the molestation.)
      Watchtower attorney Paul Polidoro said the Supreme Court needed to consider whether California violated the Constitution when it held the Jehovah’s Witnesses responsible for what Simental did “during non-church activity,” forced them to hand over internal communications, and punished them for protecting everyone’s “privacy rights.”
      J.W.’s attorney Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. asking the Court to flat-out reject this case.
      Indeed, that’s what the Court decided. When the first set of orders in the new term was released yesterday, there was this case among many many others, in the list of those which would not get heard this term.
       
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      It was the right move. There’s nothing further to debate here. Finally, this case has been put to rest.
      (Image via Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. . Large portions of this article were published earlier)
         
    • By admin
      Part of a series on: Jehovah's Witnesses
      A number of corporations are in use by Jehovah's Witnesses. They publish literature and perform other operational and administrative functions, representing the interests of the religious organization. "The Society" has been used as a collective term for these corporations.
      The oldest and most prominent of their corporation names, "Watch Tower Society", has also been used synonymously with the religious organization of Jehovah's Witnesses, even in their own literature.[1] Particularly since 2000, Jehovah's Witnesses have maintained a distinction between their corporations and their religious organization.[2][3] About  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.  Jehovah's Witnesses in the USA provide voluntary unpaid labor, as members of a religious order (see logo below) and are part of the Worldwide Order of Special Full-Time Servants of Jehovah's Witnesses
       
      Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania
      See Main article: 

      Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania is a non-stock, not-for-profit organization[4] headquartered in the New York City borough of Brooklyn, United States. It is the main legal entity used worldwide by Jehovah's Witnesses, often referred to as "The Society". It holds the copyrights of most literature published by Jehovah's Witnesses. The society was founded in 1881 with William Henry Conley, a Pittsburgh businessman, as the first president and Charles Taze Russell as secretary-treasurer.[5] The society was incorporated as Zion's Watch Tower Tract Society in Pennsylvania on December 15, 1884, with Russell as president.[6] The corporation was officially renamed Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society in 1896; similar names had been in unofficial use since at least 1892.[7]
      Personnel (as of September 1, 2005)
      President: Don A. Adams Vice Presidents: Robert W. Wallen, William F. Malenfant Secretary/Treasurer: Richard E. Abrahamson Directors: Danny L. Bland, Philip D. Wilcox, John N. Wischuk Name changes
      Zion's Watch Tower Tract Society (1881–1896) Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society (1896–1955) Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania (since 1955) See also -  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.
      United States corporations
      Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, Inc.
      Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, Inc. (originally called the Peoples Pulpit Association of New York) is a corporation used by Jehovah's Witnesses, which is responsible for administrative matters, such as real estate, especially within the United States. This corporation is typically cited as the publisher of Jehovah's Witnesses publications, though other publishers are sometimes cited. The corporation's stated purposes are: “Charitable, benevolent, scientific, historical, literary and religious purposes; the moral and mental improvement of men and women, the dissemination of Bible truths in various languages by means of the publication of tracts, pamphlets, papers and other religious documents, and for religious missionary work.”[8] 
      See also: Watchtower Real Estate News and an example of it's  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.
       
      Selected Personnel (as of April 1, 2012)
      President:  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.  (Replaced Max H. Larson) Vice Presidents George M. Couch, Lonnie R. Schilling Secretary/Treasurer Gerald F. Simonis Directors Gerald D. Grizzle, David G. Sinclair, Robert M. Pevy
      Originally known as the Peoples Pulpit Association, the organization was incorporated in 1909 when the Society's principal offices moved to Brooklyn, New York. In 1939, it was renamed Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, Inc., and in 1956 the name was changed to Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, Inc.[9]Until 2000, a member of the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses was president of both the Watch Tower (Pennsylvania) and Watchtower (New York) corporations, as well as Britain's International Bible Students Association corporation; in 2001, it was decided that the corporations' directors need not be members of the Governing Body.[2] In 2001 the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York was listed among the top forty revenue-generating companies in New York City, reporting an annual revenue of about 951 million US dollars.[10]
       
      Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses (Incorporated 2000)
      Coordinates all service (i.e., proselytic) activities, including door-to-door proselytism, circuit and district conventions, etc.
      President William L. Van De Wall Vice Presidents Charles I. Woody, Leon Weaver, Jr. Secretary/Treasurer William H. Nonkes Directors Harold K. Jackson, Merton V. Campbell, Stanley F. Weigel Other US corporations
      Reorganization in 2000 resulted in the creation of several additional corporate entities to serve the needs of the United States branch of Jehovah's Witnesses. Since then, most written communication with congregations and individuals in the United States involves the Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses, Inc; other corporations include, for example,
      Religious Order of Jehovah's Witnesses, New York. Incorporated in 2000 to give particular attention to those in special full-time service: Bethel volunteers, missionaries, traveling overseers, special pioneers; and assembly halls. See also their special  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. .      President Patrick J. LaFranca Vice Presidents Peter D. Molchan, Ralph E. Walls Secretary/Treasurer Joseph D. Mercante Directors Marvin G. Smalley, Kenneth J. Pulcifer, Eugene D. Rosam, Jr.
      Kingdom Support Services, Inc., New York. Incorporated in 2000 to deal with construction of Kingdom Halls and Assembly Halls, other engineering needs, and vehicles. President Harold L. Corkern Vice Presidents Alan D. Janzen, Robert L. Butler Secretary/Treasurer Alexander W. Reinmueller Directors James F. Mantz, Jr., Thomas Kalimeris, Alan G. Browning Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of Florida President Leonard R. Pearson Vice Presidents Alejandro G. Rodriguez, Maurice C. Turcot Secretary/Treasurer Mark L. Questell Directors Jim Moody, Sr., Anselm J. Packnett, Donald R. Krebs Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New Jersey President Charles V. Molohan Vice Presidents James L. Bauer, J. Richard Brown Secretary/Treasurer Alan K. Flowers Directors Allen E. Shuster, David L. Walker, Vernon C. Wisegarver Valley Farms Corporation (Incorporated 1987) President Charles J. Rice Vice Presidents Kent E. Fischer, Robert L. Rains Secretary/Treasurer Albert L. Harrell Directors John R. Strandberg, Samuel D. Buck, Louis A. Travis LEGAL DEPARTMENT 
      It is assumed this team works on behalf of any of the corporations listed on this page
      Philip Brumley: Coordinator Mario Moreno Gregory Olds Don Ridley Carolyn Wah (Wah is Assistant General Counsel for the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, Inc. Ms. Wah is an attorney and was admitted to law practice in the State of New York in 1985. She has published numerous papers and given presentations on issues of religious practice, minority religions, mental health and family law.) Charles Creger Joseph Jandrokovic
      Listed as Watchtower attorneys practicing in New York: Attorneys at 100 Watchtower Drive in Patterson, NY 12563:
      Philip Brumley (home address 131 Brimstone Road,[ seriously ? ] Patterson NY 12563 although also given for him in another document was 2891 Route 22, Patterson, NY 12563-2236; New York attorney registry: 2224871);
      Mario F. Moreno (home address 720 Route 292 in Holmes NY 12531),
      Carolyn Wah ,
      Adam Lett , ----- Is this  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.  son?
      Paul D. Polidoro,
      Donald T. Ridley,
      Robert C. James,
      Richard King,
      John Miller III,
      Richard Moake,
      Erna Neufeld,
      Gregory D. Olds (home address 79 Willow Street, Brooklyn NY 11201 involved with Religious Order of JWs),
      William R. Bell,
      Christine Benham,
      Max Custer,
      Michelle Dickinson,
      Lisa Douglas,
      furthermore: Michelle Dickinson at 27 Hudson Watchtower Drive, Ossining NY 10562;
      further: Christine Benham at 275 Tanner Marsh Road, Guilford Connecticut 06437;
      further, James M. McCabe can be mailed at 4817 Santa Monica Avenue, Suite B, San Diego, California 92017

      Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.  (son of former GB member Albert Schroeder was trained as an attorney by the WT Society) (I think he has left bethel to go live down in Florida)

      US Websites:
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      www.jw-hawaii.org
      GENERAL NY CORPORATE HEADQUARTERS, SUBSIDARIES, SPECIAL OPERATIONS:
      Watchtower Bible & Tract Society (dba "Jehovahs Witnesses") Buffalo, NY Headquarters
      Mountainbrook Ltd Partnership (dba "Watchtower Educ Ctr") Patterson, NY Headquarters
      Watchtower (dba "Kingdom Farms") Lansing, NY (There are also other Kingdom Farms in Florida and Colorado, but I have not listed them at this time)
      Watchtower Bible & Tract Society Of New York Inc Brooklyn, NY Headquarters
      Watchtower Bible & Tract Society Of New York Inc (dba "Watchtower Health Care Sup") Brooklyn, NY Branch
      Watchtower Bible & Tract Society Of New York Inc (dba "Construction Division") Brooklyn, NY Branch
      Watchtower Bible & Tract Society Of New York Inc (dba "Watchtower Farm") Wallkill, NY Branch
      Watchtower Bible & Tract Society Of New York Inc (dba "Bossert Hotel") Brooklyn, NY Branch
      Watchtower Bible And Clergy, The (dba "Jehovahs Witnesses") Fortuna, CA
      Watchtower Associates Ltd Woodbury, NYWatchtower Bible & Tract Society Of Pennsylvania, PA
      Watchtower Bible & Tract Society Of Pennsylvania Brooklyn, NY (Headquarters)
      Watchtower Bible & Tract Society Of Pennsylvania (dba "Jehovahs Witnesses") Trafford, PA Branch
      Watchtower Bible & Tract Society Of Pennsylvania (dba "Kingdom Hall Jhovahs Witnesses") Clinton, IL Branch
      Watchtower Bible & Tract Society Of Pennsylvania (dba "Jehovahs Witnesses") Mattituck, NY Branch
      Watchtower Bible & Tract Society Of Pennsylvania (dba "Jehovahs Witnesses," "Kingdom Hall Jehovah Witnesses," "Kingdom Hall Inc") Fort Payne, AL Branch
      Watchtower Bible & Tract Society Of Pennsylvania (dba "Lakeview Congrg Of Jehovahs W") Stanton, MI Branch
      Watchtower Bible & Tract Society Of Pennsylvania (dba "Kingdom Hall Jhovahs Witnesses") Lake Ariel, PA Branch
      Watchtower Bible & Tract Society Of Pennsylvania (dba "Jehovahs Witnesses") Sun City, AZ Branch
      Watchtower Bible & Tract Society Of Pennsylvania Brooklyn, NY Branch
      ADDRESSES OF KEY OPERATIONS: Some of these seem like duplicates, but they "may" represent various operations and subsidiaries, such as printing factories, or shipping operations. Some of them, I do not yet know what their specific purpose is.

      WATCHTOWER, 317 Auburn Rd, Lansing, NY 14882 WATCHTOWER EDUC CTR, 100 WATCHTOWER DR., PATTERSON, NY 12563
      MOUNTAINBROOK LTD PARTNERSHIP, 100 Watchtower Dr., Patterson, NY 12563 (Investment operation of Patterson site, including hotel)
      WATCHTOWER BIBLE AND TRACT SOCIETY OF NEW YORK, INC., 25 COLUMBIA HTS,. BROOKLYN, NY 11201
      WATCHTOWER BIBLE & TRACT SOCIETY OF PENNSYLVANIA, 25 COLUMBUS HEIGHTS, BROOKLYN, NY 11201
      WATCHTOWER ASSOCIATES LTD, 147 HOLIDAY DR, WOODBURY, NY 11797
      WATCHTOWER BIBLE AND TRACT SOCIETY THE, 121 N WILLOW ST, ONEIDA, NY 13421
      WATCH TOWER SOCIETY, 1971 STRAUSS ST., BROOKLYN, NY 11212 (1971 BUSINESS COMMITTEE OF JEHOVAH WITNESSES)
      WATCHTOWER BIBLE & TRACT SOCIETY OF NEW YORK INC, 
      Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.  RD., WALLKILL, NY 12589
      WATCHTOWER BIBLE AND TRACT SOCIETY OF NEW YORK, INC., 86 MONTAGUE ST # 98, BROOKLYN, NY 11201
      WATCHTOWER BIBLE AND TRACT SOCIETY OF NEW YORK, INC., 117 ADAMS ST, BROOKLYN, NY 11201 (Branch Location)
      WATCHTOWER BIBLE & TRACT SOCIETY OF PENNSYLVANIA, 5550 BERGEN AVE., MATTITUCK, NY 11952 (Branch Location)
      WATCHTOWER BIBLE, 16100 RIV AVE, BRONX, NY 10451
      {FORMERLY} WATCHTOWER BIBLE & TRACT SOCIETY INC), W RIVER RD N ROUTE 85, FULTON, NY 13069
      WATCH TOWER BIBLE AND TRACT SOCIETY, FOOTS CORNERS RD & ROUTE 96, INTERLAKEN, NY 14847(Headquarters location)
      WATCH TOWER BIBLE AND TRACT SOCIETY, 4208 NATIONAL ST, FLUSHING, NY 11368GENERAL PA CORPORATE HEADQUARTERS, BRANCHES, & SUBSIDARIES:

      STATE BRANCHES or SPECIAL OPERATIONS IN STATES:
      Watchtower Bible & Tract Society Of New York Inc Brooklyn, NY Branch
      Jehovah's Witnesses Crown Point (Inc) (dba "Watchtower Society") Crown Point, IN
      Watchtower Bible & Tract Society Emmett, ID Branch
      Watchtower Bible & Tract Society Hernando, FL Branch
      Watchtower Bible & Tract Society Clearfield, PA Branch
      Watchtower Bible & Tract Society (dba "Jehovahs Witnesses Brklyn") Brooklyn, NY Branch
      Watchtower Society (dba "Jehovahs Witnesses") Cleveland, OH
      Watchtower And Bible Society (Inc) (dba "Jehovahs Witnesses W S Spanish") Ocala, FL
      Watchtower Bb Tract Soc Of Ny Jasper, GA Branch
      Watchtower Bb Tract Soc Of Ny (dba "Jehovahs Witnesses") Libby, MT Branch
      Watchtower Bible & Tract (dba "Jehovahs Witnesses") Baker, MT
      Watchtower Bible & Tract Society Of New York Inc (dba "Jehovahs Witness Lake Mangoni") West Palm Beach, FL Branch
      Watchtower Bible & Tract Society Of New York Inc Saint Paul, MN Branch
      Watchtower Bible & Tract Society Of New York Inc (dba "Jehovahs Witnesses(Inc)") Ashland, WI Branch
      Watchtower Bible & Tract Society Of New York Inc (dba "Jehovahs Witnesses") Charlotte, MI Branch
      Watchtower Bible & Tract Society Of New York Inc West Palm Beach, FL Branch
      Watchtower Bible & Tract Society Of New York Inc (dba "Jehovahs Witnesses") El Toro, CA Branch
      Watchtower Bible & Tract Society Of New York Inc (dba "Jehovahs Witnesses") Bishop, CA
      Watchtower Bible & Tract Society Of New York Inc (dba "Jehovahs Witnesses") Soquel, CA Branch
      Watchtower Bible & Tract Society Of New York Inc (dba "Jehovahs Witnesses") Fort Myers, FL Branch
      Watchtower Bible & Tract Society Of New York Inc (dba "Jehovahs Witnesses") Toms River, NJ Branch
      Watchtower Bible & Tract Society Of New York Inc Pottstown, PA Branch
      Watchtower Bible & Tract Society Of New York Inc (dba "Jehovahs Witnesses") Yakima, WA Branch
      Watchtower Bible & Tract Society Of New York Inc (dba "Jehovahs Witnesses") Bemidji, MN Branch
      Watchtower Bible & Tract Society Of New York Inc (dba "Jehovahs Witnesses") Clarkesville, GA Branch
      Watchtower Bible & Tract Society Of New York Inc (dba "Jehovahs Witnesses") West Des Moines, IA Branch
      Watchtower Bible & Tract Society Of New York Inc (dba "Jehovahs Witnesses-Mont") Montgomery, TX Branch
      Watchtower Bible & Tract Society Of New York Inc Knoxville, TN Branch
      Watchtower Bible & Tract Society Of New York Inc (dba "Jehovahs Witnesses") Crystal Lake, IL Branch
      Watchtower Bible & Tract Society Of New York Inc (dba "Watchtower Bible And Track") Tijeras, NM Branch
      Watchtower Bible & Tract Society Of New York Inc Memphis, TN Branch
      Watchtower Bible & Tract Society Of New York Inc (dba "Jehovahs Witnesses," "Jehovah S Witnesses") Honolulu, HI Branch
      Watchtower Bible & Tract Society Of New York Inc Anchorage, AK Branch
      Watchtower Bible & Tract Society Of New York Inc (dba "Jehovahs Witnesses") Portland, OR Branch
      Watchtower Bible & Tract Society Of New York Inc Cleveland, OH Branch
      Watchtower Bible & Tract Society Of New York Inc Saraland, AL Branch
      Watchtower Bible & Tract Society Of New York Inc (dba "Jehovahs
      Witnesses," "Jehovah S Witnesses") Reedley, CA Branch
      Watchtower Bible & Tract Society Of New York Inc (dba "Jehovahs Witnesses") Austell, GA Branch
      Watchtower Bible & Tract Society Of New York Inc Conyers, GA Branch
      Watchtower Bible & Tract Society Of New York Inc (dba "Jehovahs Witnesses") Sandusky, OH Branch
      Watchtower Bible & Tract Society Of New York Inc (dba "Jehovah Witnesses East") De Leon Springs, FL Branch
      Watchtower Bible & Tract Society Of New York Inc Yerington, NV Branch
      Watchtower Bible & Tract Society Of New York Inc (dba "Jehovahs Witnesses") San Antonio, TX Branch
      Watchtower Bible & Tract Society Of New York Inc (dba "Jehovah Witnesses") Denver, CO Branch
      Watchtower Bible & Tract Society Of New York Inc (dba "Jehovahs Witnesses Sandusky") Sandusky, MI Branch
      Watchtower Bible & Tract Society Of New York Inc (dba "Jehovahs Witnesses") San Antonio, TX Branch
      Watchtower Bible & Tract Society Of New York Inc (dba "Jehovahs Witnesses") Vancouver, WA Branch
      Watchtower Bible & Tract Society Of New York Inc (dba "Jehovahs Witnesses") Dowagiac, MI Branch
      Watchtower Bible & Tract Society Of New York Inc (dba "Jehovahs Witnesses") Brookville, PA Branch
      Watchtower Bible & Tract Society Of New York Inc Boynton Beach, FL Branch
      Watchtower Bible And Trackt Society (dba "Jehovahs Witnesses Bandera Soc") Bandera, TX
      Watchtower Bible And Tract Society Inc (dba "Jehovahs Witnesses") Springfield, MA
      Watchtower Bible Society Of Pa (Inc) (dba "Jehovahs Witnesses Hillsboro") Hillsboro, TX
      Watchtower Bible Trac Society (Inc) (dba "Jehovahs Wtnesses Kingdom Hall") Kent, OH
      Watchtower Bible Tract Of Pennsalvania (dba "Jehovahs Witnesses") Pottsville, PA
      Watchtower Inc (dba "Jehovahs Witnesses") San Jose, CA
      Watchtower Society (Inc), The (dba "Jehovahs Witnesses") Plano, TX
      Wheaton Congrg Of Jehovah Inc (dba "Watchtower Bible And Track Soc") Wheaton, MN

      SPECIAL OPERATIONS BRANCHES USING KINGDOM HALLS:
      Jehovah’s Witnesses Kingdom Hall (dba "Watchtower Bible & Tract Soc") Metuchen, NJ
      Watchtower Society (dba "Kingdom Hall," "Jehovah's Witnesses") Phoenix, AZ
      Kingdom Hall Of Jehovah's Witnesses (dba "Watchtower The," "Jehovah's Witnesses") BELFAIR, WA
      Watchtower Bible & Tract Society (dba "Jehovahs Wtnesses Kingdom Hall") Laurel, MD
      Watchtower Bible & Tract Society Of New York (dba "Kingdom Hall Jhovahs Witnesses," "Jehovah's Witnesses") Lompoc, CA
      Watchtower Bible & Tract Society Of New York Inc (dba "Jehovahs Witnesses Kingdom Hall") Yukon, OK Branch
      Watchtower Bible & Tract Society Of New York Inc (dba "Kingdom Hall Jehovahs Witness") Mc Cormick, SC Branch
      Watchtower Bible & Tract Society Of New York Inc (dba "Cortez Cngrgtion Jhvah Wttness") Cortez, CO Branch
      Watchtower Bible & Tract Society Of New York Inc (dba "Kingdom Hall Of Jehovahs") Woodward, OK
      Watchtower Bible & Tract Society Of New York Inc (dba "Kingdom Hall Jhovahs Witnesses") Levelland, TX Branch
      Watchtower Bible & Tract Society Of New York Inc (dba "Jehovahs Witnesses-Folsom") El Dorado Hills, CA Branch
      Watchtower Bible & Tract Society Of New York Inc (dba "Kingdom Hall Jehovahs Witness," "Kingdom Hall Jehovah S Witness") Wauchula, FL Branch
      Watchtower Bible & Tract Society Of New York Inc (dba "Jehovahs Witness Kingdom Hall") Durango, CO Branch
      Watchtower Bible & Tract Society Of New York Inc (dba "Elk Rapids Congrtn Jehova") Kewadin, MI Branch
      Watchtower Bible & Tract Society Of New York Inc (dba "Columbus Cngrgtn Jehovahs") Lynn, NC Branch
      Watchtower Bible & Tract Society Of New York Inc (dba "Jehovahs Wtness S Congregation") Live Oak, FL Branch
      Watchtower Bible & Tract Society Of New York Inc (dba "Congregation Of Jenovahs") Lake Wales, FL Branch
      Watchtower Bible & Tract Society Of New York Inc (dba "Winterpock Congregation") Chesterfield, VA Branch
      Watchtower Bible & Tract Society Of New York Inc (dba "Kingdom Hall Of Jhvahs Wtness") Lindsay, CA Branch
      Watchtower Bible & Tract Society Of New York Inc (dba "Kingdom Hall Of Jhvahs Wtness") Minneapolis, MN Branch
      Watchtower Bible & Tract Society Of New York Inc (dba "Kingdom Hall Of Jehovahs," "Kingdom Hall Of Jehovah S") Gallup, NM Branch
      Watchtower Bible & Tract Society Of New York Inc (dba "Kingdom Hall," "Jehovah's Witnesses") Palestine, TX Branch
      Watchtower Bible & Tract Society Of New York Inc (dba "Kingdom Hall Jhovahs Witnesses") Maquoketa, IA Branch
      Watchtower Bible & Tract Society Of New York Inc (dba "Kingdom Hall Jehovahs Witness") KYLE, TX Branch
      Watchtower Bible & Tract Society Of New York Inc (dba "Watch Tower Bible Track Soc Ny," "Kingdom Hall") NAPA, CA Branch
      Watchtower Bible & Tract Society Of New York Inc (dba "Jehovahs Wtnesses Kingdom Hall") Alhambra, CA Branch
      Watchtower Bible & Tract Society Of New York Inc (dba "Kingdom Hall Jhovahs Witnesses") Norfolk, VA Branch
      Watchtower Bible & Tract Society Of New York Inc (dba "Kingdom Hall Jehovah Witness") Atoka, OK Branch
      Watchtower Bible & Tract Society Of New York Inc (dba "Jehovahs Wtnesses Kingdom Hall") Orlando, FL Branch
      Watchtower Bible & Tract Society Of New York Inc (dba "Kingdom Hall Jhovahs Witnesses") Saint Edward, NE Branch
      Watchtower Bible & Tract Society Of New York Inc (dba "Kingdom Hall Jhovahs Witnesses") Wahoo, NE Branch
      Watchtower Bible & Tract Society Of New York Inc (dba "Kingdom Hall Jhovahs Witnesses") Spring Hill, FL Branch
      Watchtower Bible & Tract Society Of New York Inc (dba "Kingdom Hall Jhovahs Witnesses") Schoharie, NY Branch
      Watchtower Bible & Tract Society Of New York Inc (dba "Jehovah S Witness Kingdom Hall") North Wilkesboro, NC Branch
      Watchtower Bible & Tract Society Of New York Inc (dba "Northwest Cong Jehovahs," "Jehovah's Witnesses") Nashville, TN Branch
      Watchtower Bible & Tract Society Of New York Inc (dba "Kingdomhall Jehovahs Witnesses") Scottsville, VA Branch
      Watchtower Bible & Tract Society Of Ny Inc (dba "Jehovahs Witnesses") Klamath Falls, OR
      Watchtower Bible & Tract Society Of Pennsylvania (dba "Jeovahs Witnesses Kingdom Hall") Buford, GA Branch
      Watchtower Bible Tract Society (dba "Kingdom Hall," "Jehovah's Witnesses") Hart, MI Single
      Watchtower Corp (dba "Jehovahs Wtnesses Kingdom Hall") Macon, GA


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        Corporations outside the United States
      THE EUROPEAN ASSOCIATION OF JEHOVAH’S CHRISTIAN WITNESSES 
       
      International Bible Students Association

      International Bible Students Association is a corporate not-for-profit organization used by Jehovah's Witnesses in the United Kingdom. Some Jehovah's Witnesses publications cite this corporation as publisher or co-publisher.[citation needed]
      It was founded in 1914 as a corporation of the Bible Students by Charles Taze Russell in London, England, and was the first legal corporation representing Russell's ministry in Europe. Along with their Pennsylvania and New York based corporations, Watch Tower publications since 1914 have stated: "All three of these corporations were organized for identical purposes and they harmoniously work together."[20]
      Later corporations, such as in Canada, were similarly named. The name continues to be used for corporate entities (for example, in East Africa), but in 1931 the religion formally changed its name worldwide from International Bible Students Association to Jehovah’s witnesses.

      Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of Britain
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      Other corporations
      Since the formation of the International Bible Students Association, many other legal entities sanctioned by the Governing Body have been used throughout the world to further the interests of Jehovah's Witnesses.[21]Typically these are synonymous with the branch offices in various countries. These include:
      Testigos de Jehová de Venezuela, La Victoria, Venezuela Association of Jehovah’s Witnesses of East Africa Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.  - (Colombia) Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.  - (Spain) Congregación Cristiana de los Testigos de Jehová - (México) Wachtturm Bibel- und Traktat-Gesellschaft der Zeugen Jehovas, e. V., Selters/Taunus (Germany, Austria) Watchtower Bible & Tract Society Of Australia, Inc. (Australia) Address: 12-14 ZOUCH RD, DENHAM COURT, NSW 2565 Macarthur-camden, Sydney Metro Tel:  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. Jah-Jireh Charity Homes - suspected connection Jah-Jireh Homes of America Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. Watch Tower Bible And Tract Society Of The Philippines Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.  (Can someone write this in Russian here? Thank you.) Address: 186 rosevelt ave., sfdm, quezon city 1100, Tel: 24116090 Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.
      In some countries, Jehovah's Witnesses use the corporation name Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses, or a similar name translated into the local language. In 2005, the branch office in Canada began using this name for a separate Canadian entity for most correspondence, while retaining Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Canada for other matters. Literature of Jehovah's Witnesses has also referred to the religion generally as the "Christian congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses".[22][23][24]
       
      Corporations used for International Conventions
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      Defunct Corporations
      Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society Lünen-Magdeburg of the new-apostolic sect - Prussia - Dissolved 1933
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      Watch Tower Society of Cuba
       
      Associations / Splinter Groups
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      References
      ^ Such as in their book Worldwide Security Under the “Prince of Peace” ( Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.   Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ), ©1986 Watch Tower, pages 26-27, "That momentous date [that is, 1914] had been pointed forward to since 1876 by those who became associated with the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society. ... In all the warring nations [during World War I], the dedicated Christians who were associated with the Watch Tower Society came under tremendous pressure to abandon their resolve to keep free from bloodguilt." ^ a b "How the Governing Body Differs From a Legal Corporation". The Watchtower: 29. 15 January 2001. ^ Isaiah’s Prophecy—Light for All Mankind, volume 2, ©2001 Watch Tower, page 317 ^  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. . Corporations.state.pa.us. Retrieved 2012-12-31. ^ Jehovah's Witnesses: Proclaimers of God's Kingdom (Watchtower, 1993), p. 576. ^ J. Rutherford,  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.  1915, p. 14. ^ "Printing and Distributing God’s Own Sacred Word", Jehovah's Witnesses - Proclaimers of God's Kingdom, page 603 ^ "The Warning Work (1909-1914)", The Watchtower, March 1, 1955, page 141 ^ "Early Legal Corporations", Jehovah's Witnesses - Proclaimers of God's Kingdom, page 229 ^  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. . Watchtowernews.org. 2001-09-17. Retrieved 2012-12-31. ^ Letter from Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, Inc., to All Bodies of Elders in the United States, dated February 27, 2001. ^ Our Kingdom Ministry, Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, Inc., 2002 January p7 ^  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ^  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. . Sunbiz.org. Retrieved 2012-12-31. ^ Our Kingdom Ministry, September 2005, page 1 ^ The Watchtower, January 15, 2001, page 14-15 ^ The Watchtower, July 15, 2006, page 20 ^ Awake!, June 2006, page 19 ^ The Watchtower, April 1, 2007, page 25 ^ See “The History and Operations of Our Society,” Watch Tower, 1917, pp. 327-330, as referred by The Watchtower, March 1, 1955, page 141 ^ Brochure insert, Our Kingdom Ministry, January 2002, page 7. ^ The Watchtower, August 1, 2004, page 6 ^ Awake!, January 22, 2005, page 21 ^ Awake!, June 8, 2002, page 11
      See also:
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    • By Srecko Sostar
      GB claims how they are not "inspired". They also claim that the Organization is "spirit-guided". There is also an idea that God has always had his organization on Earth, the first being the Old Nation of Israel, and then First Assembly at the time of the Apostles, and after long centuries of darkness organization appeared again in 1879 as WT Society. So, we have three organizations in three time periods.
      Who has guided, led these organizations? We see that organizations were guided by people. The first was Moses, then the Judges and Prophets, the Kings, and then the Apostles and today is The GB. According to the present claims of this modern organization of God, it is logical to conclude that both of the previous two organizations had been guided by God by the same principles too, meaning, that no inspirational/uninspired people were at the forefront of a spirit-guided organization.
      Which tools are used to run today's organization? Thousands and thousands of pages of written text and public and private talks. All of these published texts and speeches were/are not "inspired", in fact, they presented many erroneous teachings and instructions, in the face of claims, that the organization is/was spiritually driven at the same time. So we have a God's spirit-guided organization that teaches the wrong things.
      What does this have to do with past God's organizations? In the past, members of those two perished Organizations also wrote texts and held public and private speeches. Did those texts and the words been "inspired". If we judge according to today's GB teachings and the way how God, supposedly,  leads a modern organization, we could rightly say that, how past leaders were not "inspired" when writing and gave speech. Because God has no need to "inspire" imperfect servants when He already has "spirit guided organization" :))
      What is "inspired" in that, if someone had wrote what he has seen or heard during her life? Or if they write down their memories after a few years after the event? Most of the biblical text is precisely this - writing what someone saw and heard personally or that writing came through the oral tradition, something that other people have seen, heard, and spoken in some period of time. Only in exceptional cases, the authors of certain parts of the script, claimed that the instructions/revelations/prophecy  were received through dreams, visions or God or angel directly addressed them. So, for a very small part of the text in the Bible, we can say that it is "inspired" by divine supernatural power. The vast majority of the text in the Bible is actually a retelling  of the events that have been experienced - either from oneself or from other people. And for such, there is no need for extra "inspiration", but a good memory of those who recount the event and a good memory of the one who later writes it.
      To bring claim that God, with his spirit, has led each of these three organizations, but that only the Israeli representatives (and writers) and representatives of the 1st Assembly (and the writers) had "inspired" directly with His spirit to make the written and spoken content, but how God changed his mind in the 19th century and gave up from doing the same way of managing his organization, it seems strange. Why would God be inconsistent with his principle of how to lead his earthly organizations? Why would God "inspire" Moses and the John (and all the rest between) to speak and write, but today he does not want to "inspire" his Anointed Representatives who sitting in GB? Was theirs time more difficult than today? Do not we live in the end time when all is much worst than before? :)))
      If JW  members considers that it is quite right and normal for God to lead his organization through "not inspired" texts of today's "servants of God" whose "research and knowledge was multiplied" and become far greater, clearer and safer because of more and more "Brighter Lights" that is far more advanced than before, of all what previous generations of God's servants knew and understand, then it is strange that today's texts and public speeches are so inaccurate and unsafe and need to be continually changed and corrected.
      From this WTJWORG idea of how God has kept his earthly organization in continuity since Moses' time, it is not difficult to doubt the accuracy of the texts that people have collected and incorporated into a single book, the Bible. In fact, if today's WT Society (WT is equal to God's Organization) texts contain both, accurate and incorrect things, then we could assume that the old records,  "publications" and "public and private talk" of Old Time Organizations, in their content were subject to the influence of the human factor too. The idea may seem strange and impossible (because "God with the spirit" leads his organizations) but that not give guaranties that such Organizations will not End Up in Some Form of Slavery (to inside and/or to outside Masters). Recall yourself how had ended previous 2 God's Organizations. 

      But what do you think that after 1 or 2 thousands of years from now, when we all become old dust and ashes, someone came up with the idea of choosing certain WT Society texts and create a modern "Bible" for JW?
       
    • By James Thomas Rook Jr.
      I realize there are many reasons to go to an Assembly, or Convention, and when my children were living at home they would go to others' conventions  for a variety of reasons, as well as their own.
      I would always ask them when they returned home "What did you learn that was new?" .  This was important to me as I had to work long hours to afford to finance their explorations and socialization, which I thought was important ... but I still expected them to learn something new ... and since I was paying for their travels, to tell me what was going on.
      Generally, attendance to an out of town Convention nearby would cost about $200 a day, times three days, so that would be $600.
      Now that I am retired, and my income has been cut by about 80%, it's even MORE important to me to want to get good value for the time and money I would be spending for my wife and I to spend three days, traveling out of town, to learn something of lasting value .... something worth at least three days of our time, which is painfully obviously shorter, and the what is now considerable effort and considerable expense.
      In Engineering it's important that the "Law of diminishing returns" be observed so that you do not go physically, mentally or emotionally bankrupt.
      Perhaps I am just asking for some encouragement that the effort is worth the cost and effort, and that the benefit is worth it, so if I may ask ......
      WHAT DID YOU LEARN THAT WAS NEW AT THE 2019 "LOVE NEVER FAILS" REGIONAL CONVENTION ?
      ......
       
       
    • By Srecko Sostar
      Inspired ....spirit-driven.... spirit-guided.....motivated.....to have spirit of....lead up by spirit....to feel that spirit leads us ..... spirit impelled him .... he came in the spirit....sent out by the spirit....spirit did not permit them.....bound by the spirit...he was in the spirit....carried him away in the spirit... and many more other phrases in the Bible.
      Why JW's mostly, generally think that "inspiration" is action reserved only to JHVH and Jesus or devil and demons?
      "Inspiration" is state/condition of some person soul, mind and emotions.  The biblical / religious state of inspiration comes mainly out of the will of the people. But do you think how this is something that can be  achieved/put on/force upon only by the actions of superhuman powers?
      JW's are very occupied with their religion in own life and have specific relationship to this word and have specific (organizational) understanding of the concept about this special word - inspired. They think, I think that they do think :)), about this word only in religious sense and consider how it is about or only about some sort of divinity or divine holiness (or devil evil) in background.
      Because they attach great importance to this word in only one direction, they forget that there is also a very powerful influence of another force. It's the spirit of man. JW's must recall themselves more often that people are created on the image of God. And that all people in themselves have a strong spirit (of divine source by birth and genetically inherited). This human spirit is powerful and can inspire other people (earthly spirits) around them. You, as individual can be inspired by people around you or by people about whom you hear about, you are watching, you read about. 
      Also it is interesting how some other things can inspire people. For example; nature, music, poetry, stories, events, animals, imagination.
      Please, join to this topic and give, express your thoughts. Let your spirit free and let's inspire others :)))
       
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