Gods, human, inspired text, interpretations, love and hate

[Josué2]

Il y a 10 heures, Srecko Sostar a dit :

Matthew 6:24 New International Version (NIV)

24 « Nul ne peut servir deux maîtres. Soit vous haïra l'un et aimera l'autre, ou vous serez consacré à l'un et méprisera l'autre. Vous ne pouvez servir Dieu et l'argent.

Quel est votre message?

Est-ce cela?

Dieu = maître. L'argent = maître. 

Vous détestez Dieu mais l'amour de l'argent. Ou. Vous détestez l'argent mais l'amour de Dieu.

Vous serez dévoué à Dieu et qui méprisent l'argent. Ou. Vous serez dévoué à l'argent et à mépriser Dieu.

 

Si l' un de ce qui est dans votre vie, s'il vous plaît donner un exemple , comment ressemble votre haine et votre amour, de l'argent et Dieu. :))

 

Désolè je ne vois trop le rapport avec ma citation des paroles de Jésus.

[Srecko Sostar]

45 minutes ago, Josué2 said:

Désolè je ne vois trop le rapport avec ma citation des paroles de Jésus.

Please, give some example how looks your hate and your love in everyday life .... :))

[JOHN BUTLER]

2 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Please, give some example how looks your hate and your love in everyday life .... :))

For some of us there are emotions / feelings in between Love and Hate. 

We should love our neighbours, but can't say a i do. I tend not to get involved with my neighbours, but i do consider their feelings when i do things outside of the house. So in my opinion showing consideration is a way of showing love, but in an indirect way. 

For some people, those that have had a good upbringing and have been shown love, it is probably easier to show love to others. But when life has kicked you down for more than half a century then showing love becomes more difficult.  God understands all this of course, but never expect people to understand. 

I show 'love' to some people by just completely ignoring them. Well it's better than doing them harm  .

Hate, I think we all hate something or someone at times. We are all sinners and fall short in many ways. 

But you know the things i hate, no need to repeat them again. 

[Srecko Sostar]

10 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

For some of us there are emotions / feelings in between Love and Hate. 

We should love our neighbours, but can't say a i do. I tend not to get involved with my neighbours, but i do consider their feelings when i do things outside of the house. So in my opinion showing consideration is a way of showing love, but in an indirect way. 

For some people, those that have had a good upbringing and have been shown love, it is probably easier to show love to others. But when life has kicked you down for more than half a century then showing love becomes more difficult.  God understands all this of course, but never expect people to understand. 

I show 'love' to some people by just completely ignoring them. Well it's better than doing them harm  .

Hate, I think we all hate something or someone at times. We are all sinners and fall short in many ways. 

But you know the things i hate, no need to repeat them again. 

Thanks for respond. Question is very hard to answer in full measure, with complete sincerity and openness. But, this is not environment to be completely open on every aspects of own private life. I truly appreciated your sincerity John and contribution you made by brave comments and experience you went through.  

First and only sincerity one must show, 

is in front "mirror"  when we looking own face, literal and spiritual. Would we go so far and tell some "secret" feelings and thoughts? It requires more faith and courage than of many who have been called "people of faith".

"The Truth". How widely meaning and many areas are covered in this word. 

 

 

 

[JOHN BUTLER]

"The Truth". How widely meaning and many areas are covered in this word. 

Yes, too many areas and too many meanings. In a law court people will swear on the Bible to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth... But it means nothing to person that wants to tell lies. Swearing on the Bible would just be one more lie for them to tell. 

And with Bible truth, who really knows. Do you think God meant all of us to go as far as Strong's Concordance to study His word ? I think not. 

And in my opinion, I feel that only the Anointed can have the 'true' understanding. I think that an Anointed class Earthwide is needed to get full understanding. This is a long way from the JW, Governing Body viewpoint. They think it is only them 8 men that can pass on understanding to us all... I think God will show us all who the real Anointed are when He is ready to reveal it  to us. Until then we just have to wait. 

 

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

3 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

I think God will show us all who the real Anointed are when He is ready to reveal it  to us. Until then we just have to wait. 

I think there are going to be a LOT of very profound surprises!

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

On 10/29/2018 at 4:04 PM, Space Merchant said:

Also it goes hand in hand with a saying we have today "Do not kick a man when hes down".

That being said, this verse is way too obvious in meaning to take it out of context, it pretty much tells you the context itself.

There is a very real difference between "kicking a man when he is down" when someone has stumbled or become a victim of folly, or chance and circumstance .... and "kicking a man when he is down" who just tried to assault you ... or did in fact assault you, and in combat you prevailed and got him to the ground.

In that case, I would kick him while he was down until he completely and unquestionably had the ability to fight permanently removed from his sorry body ....  and completely ceased to be a threat to anyone.

THAT ... IS CONTEXT!

[JOHN BUTLER]

Ah, but what would you do to a man that had assaulted someone else, someone not able to defend themselves ? 

Would you turn away and say it's not my business ? 

[Space Merchant]

On 11/2/2018 at 1:36 PM, Srecko Sostar said:

What in this words told by Jesus need some extra context with some special interpretation, that is not visible while reader reading it? - “You have heard that it was said, ...."

Those who listened Jesus at moment he gave sermon knew well WHO told them;

1) You shall not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.

2) You shall not commit adultery

3) Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.

4) Do not break your oath, but fulfill to the Lord the vows you have made

5) Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.

6) Love your neighbor  and hate your enemy.

Foremost commandments are still in use and the very fact that the Law Commandments hangs on to them still to this day, therefore, the context is indeed there.

On 11/2/2018 at 1:36 PM, Srecko Sostar said:

It is noticeable how Jesus have extra appendix on every of this listed, quoted things he made. Did he go beyond already said and written? He gave some  additional explanation? He gave not just an explanation, but even a guide that differs from what they were taught.

He has not, for what he speaks of is of what is written.

On 11/2/2018 at 1:36 PM, Srecko Sostar said:

All this 6 points you can find in Ten commands and Mosaic Law. But one you would not find - "hate your enemy". But Bible have idea of hating. Not only hating bad things in general or bad deeds made by people. Bible talking about hate that is directed towards other people. 

There is no law, the Mosaic Law that says to hate your enemy. So far you have not proven anything thus far, Srecko.

You also still haven't shown anything pertaining to political leaders, therefore, you, Srecko, are adding to the text, thus going out of context as seen here.

On 11/2/2018 at 1:36 PM, Srecko Sostar said:

General idea of "hating" is visible in book Ec. 3:8. ...a time to love and a time to hate. 

So suddenly you do not want to talk about the Law and the commandments? Why the change? In this case, do you yourself understand this verse?

Because already the Strong's stack up against you, before I post them I'd like to see your resolve.

On 11/2/2018 at 1:36 PM, Srecko Sostar said:

Psalm 139:21,22 ....Do not I hate them, O Lord, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee? I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies.

Hosea 9:15 Every evil of theirs is in Gilgal; there I began to hate them 

Luke 14:26 “If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters— yes, even his own life— he cannot be My disciple.

So how does that equal, according to you, to a law that does not exist among the Jews?

On 11/2/2018 at 1:36 PM, Srecko Sostar said:

In sermon, Jesus talking about NOT HATING enemy but also about HATING family members. 

So why assume such in your previous response? Jesus did in fact gave the ability to bind and loosen and even spoke of relatives even family members who do not accept him, the Christ an the teachings.

On 11/2/2018 at 1:36 PM, Srecko Sostar said:

You can talk about so called CONTEXT how much you wish and want, but what is said - it is said, and how it was said -it was said. WTJWorg in some of Bible verses  found basis for shunning, avoiding and ignoring those who disagree about WT doctrines.    

You yourself do not understand context, for if you had, you realize what Jesus professed about the Church HE has built. The Watchtower never existed 2,000 years ago, but the apostolic church did, with proof and evidence and even the Didache points to it;s existence, the very reason as to why only few Christians are trying to apply the practices and teachings of the Church that Jesus has built. Case and point.

The expelling and Shunning command itself stems from the Christ himself. Mathew 16, 18 and what Paul put into practice.

Expelling/Shunning had been entrusted to the disciples, and on to those who led the church, the very reason as to why excommunication exist. You've been schooled on this before, and it can happen again if you wish to go that route - I do not mind speaking some sense to a man who remains ignorant of the church that existed.

Verily I say unto you, what things soever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and what things soever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

The simple and the lukewarm will never understand anything from the Bible, and after what I had witnessed today, I see it in such ones like you.

On 11/2/2018 at 1:36 PM, Srecko Sostar said:

In one moment Jesus making corrections about Mosaic Law and oral teaching, oral law. In next moment he has told something that WT scholars using for own Oral laws and commands and instructions.

Jesus never changed the Law, the Law remains by means of the foremost commandments. They still hang and is practiced today by means of bible Principles.

On 11/2/2018 at 1:36 PM, Srecko Sostar said:

Do you still want continue to insist on so called Context? What Context, when whole  Bible can be used for particular interest of  governing elite. :))) Each group will find its context and claim how that is A Context. :))

Yes, the context should be spoken and this time no one is going to be soft about it either. If you want to go over that of what Jesus entrusted, I would when he does come, he give you time to make answer as to why you are shifting and or breaking away from his Word. I suggest you read Matthew 7:20-23.

You do not have to like expelling, but to remove it when it was commanded by means of the Christ and applied by his followers, to their followers ad even the students of the apostle and onward, you'll answer to that when he returns, so have many who choose to go down that route.

On 11/2/2018 at 3:10 PM, Srecko Sostar said:

OK, i can "swallow" this interpretation and make careful agree with idea you present, BUT when you say "to love less" what you really mean by that? What is truly, actually everyday way how you and other JW member SHOW this "less love" ??!!  And what when your family member decide not to be JW or stop to be JW?

 

13 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Jacob made love to Rachel also, and his love for Rachel was greater than his love for Leah. And he worked for Laban another seven years.

 When the Lord saw that Leah was not loved, he enabled her to conceive, but Rachel remained childless.  Leah became pregnant and gave birth to a son. She named him Reuben,[a] for she said, “It is because the Lord has seen my misery. Surely my husband will love me now.”

 

Here we have some gradation, degrees, in feelings of love. (Hate can also have gradation)

greater love

grater than

not loved

 

In one moment we have information (inspired information) how Jacob was not just showed  LESS love to Leah, but inspired report said how Lord saw that Leah WAS NOT LOVED. Here we have very different conclusion. Not loved at all. 

Is it possible to say how sometimes when somebody say, I love my dfd family member less, in fact means -- I do not love him/her at all? 

What literal message is here in Genesis? If you have two women in your life and you dare to love one less (or not love at all), than God will punished woman you love more. Or do i missed something and not saw some greater Context? :)) 

In next post/comment i will put another example and ask you to find a context and lesson for 21 century people. 

This is a first, you never liked Abraham, so why go about those Jacob? For last I checked you thought of Abraham as though he was an agent of Satan, as well as being selfish. Now there is no "graduation" of love, as you claim. Jacob loved both his wives, however context itself draws to to the fact that one woman was able to bare children and the other was unable to bare children, thus being barren and it is evident that Jacob wanted children, hence his sons are to become of the 12 Tribes. God came to the aid of one of the women so that she can actually bare children, and instances like this was common in those days for a woman who is barren to feel such a way when she is among those who can give birth to a child,it isn't a surprise. Also to clarify 6 tribes are of one wife, the other 3 bears 2, thus making it 12.

references and footnotes for was not loved even tells you that Leah was unable to bear children, for anyone with minimum education can point that out.

That being said, comparing this to expelled ones is a folly, for expelled persons do not act in such a way and or the latter when it comes to baring children.

If we have to take example of expelling we would have to check out the priest Elijah, not Jacob, for it would have made more sense.

And no, as far as I know, Restorationist when it comes to expelling/shunning practice number 3, so they do care if someone of their own loses church ties by means of excommunication. For this is the 8th time I have to link this website to you, educate yourself because this time around, things must be said. http://shamelesspopery.com/biblical-excommunication/

5 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

1. So David rose and he and his men went and struck⁴⁷ down among the Phi·lisʹtines two^[i]hundred men, and David came bringing their foreskins⁴⁸ and giving them in full number to the king, to form a marriage alliance with the king. In turn Saul gave him Miʹchal his daughter as a wife.⁴⁹

 

^{If you like, please skip all that intrigues between Saul and David and fighting for power and prestige.  I am not interested in background about problems that those two individual had among them. It will be very good to see and understand what in this act is precious for Christian today to imitate when they found themselves in premarital period, about money and material issue, new family bonds,  .....}

^{In this and other stuff about David we found description -  And David was continually acting prudently in all his ways, and Jehovah was with him.}  

^{According to this statement it was ok to kill 200 people, even enemies, as price for bride. Bloody money, we would say today. Nice beginning  of family life. Miʹchal, Saul’s daughter must be very proud and happy when heard about trophy David has won, collected.  It seems how such way of living was the best and only possible if you want to survive in such society. We today are too much meek in comparison to manly, macho individuals as David.}

^{Well, we have two messages from Bible:}

^{Be meek like Jesus (read - let people spit on you)} 

^{Be prudent like David (read - don't mess with me).}

^{... now please would someone give context of this two teachings :))}

The Philistines were not just enemies of God's people, they were enemies of God himself, hence why God's people are always in conflict with enemies of God, especially those who want to do harm to them, take their wives and children and so forth, one of them even threaten to kill a boy and feed him to the wild animals. The 200 men in question were indeed enemies of God and the only reason Saul sent David to begin with because Saul grew jealous and angry with David and attempted to kill him, and he sent David to be killed by the hands of the Philistines, however God was with David, the only reason why David prevailed, and this is not the first time.

And no, we are not living in such a society today, however, with how things are, it is more sophisticated and well calculated compared to our ancient counterparts.

Now we see here you are attempting to go out of context and trying to compare David to Jesus, may I ask, was Jesus alive in David's Day on earth when God had already told David someone will soon come to sit on his throne but not in his day?

Read your Bible Srecko because this shows you do not know what that passage entails.

[Space Merchant]

1 hour ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

There is a very real difference between "kicking a man when he is down" when someone has stumbled or become a victim of folly, or chance and circumstance .... and "kicking a man when he is down" who just tried to assault you ... or did in fact assault you, and in combat you prevailed and got him to the ground.

In that case, I would kick him while he was down until he completely and unquestionably had the ability to fight permanently removed from his sorry body ....  and completely ceased to be a threat to anyone.

THAT ... IS CONTEXT!

On the contrary, what I stated goes hand in hand with what I said previously.

And I will quote myself again, as Christians, when an enemy falls we are not to rejoice, and when he is caused to stumble, we should not b joyful to heart. Therefore we should not being boastful and or anything of that nature when it comes to an enemy an or opponent, especially at all, otherwise it would defeat the purpose of the very passages made a quote of before.

That being said, to you I direct this, if a Christian who profess truth to other Christians who teach what is false ends up being beaten to a bloody mess by those same disgruntled Christians, even when he is down, they continue to beat him some more, how would that make you as a Christian feel granted you are not even on his side and or neutral to the ordeal, spectating? Clearly you won't be rejoicing over this, but some will rejoice, and they will shout and yell for the disgruntled ones to continue harming the man who is near death.

With that in mind, a man who does no harm to you should not be that position, in a grander scale, such things should not be taught to the people, getting even or fire with fire, yet they do it anyway, even the children practice this.

[Space Merchant]

29 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Ah, but what would you do to a man that had assaulted someone else, someone not able to defend themselves ? 

Would you turn away and say it's not my business ? 

Most people would succumb to the bystander syndrome/effect, even police officers and military personnel. They will not do anything because it can put them in danger physically and even cause them their life, example, a situation I posted before of a man who jumped in to stop a fight, he sends up getting a pool Stick jammed into his head, another situation whereas a child saved someone only for him to get killed, another whereas a man was shot and killed in front of his family and kids and I am pretty sure even JWs know this for I did post that one JW stumbled upon child prostitution, he was unable to do anything because the people recognized him in the neighborhood and knew where he lived his friends and family, should be taken action, he would have been dead, or his loved ones and it is not unknown to anyone what gang members who are affiliated in the practice will do to their victims, even mobsters too.

Because of things like this people succumb to this effect, although most succeed, the high risk is there, and it goes on all realms of violence, abuse, corruption, etc.

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

5 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

Because of things like this people succumb to this effect, although most succeed, the high risk is there, and it goes on all realms of violence, abuse, corruption, etc.

There is a lot of discussion about being a good Christian Man ... but from your above comment, and your perspective, most males are woefully deficient in being a MAN. 

Having male genitalia does not make one a man ... even cows are so equipped ....

.... and CHICKENS!