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The Trinity and Bible Proofs that Jesus Christ is God

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The Trinity and Bible Proofs that Jesus Christ is God

1. Matthew 28:17-20 “they worshipped him”, “All power is given to me”, “I am with you always” and “baptizing them in the name (one God) of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost” = Trinity.

2. In Matthew 3:1-3, Jesus Christ fulfils Isaiah 40:3 to ‘Prepare the way of Jehovah’ and our God.

3. John 1:1 “the word was God” (KJV, NIV), not ‘a god’ (NWT). a) Isaiah 44:8 ‘Is there a God beside me?’ b) The absence of the article before “theos” (God) identifies “word” as the subject (Colwell’s rule)Ans855

‘The subject is identified by the article (ho logos) and the predicate (theos) without it.’ AT Robertson 5,4.

John did not use the word for “Godlike or a lesser god” (theios) to describe Jesus, but used “theos” (God).

All early writers disagree with JWs. (Irenaeus,Theophilus, Clement,Tertullian, Origen, Cyprian, Tatian).

All modern Greek experts disagree with JWs. (Zodhiates, AT Robertson, Wuest, Vine, Vincent, Mantey)

4. John 1:3 “All things were made by him” Malachi 2:10 “Hath not one God created us?” Jesus is Creator.

5. John 3:13 “Son of man which is in heaven.” Jesus is omnipresent (on earth and in heaven at same time)

6. John 4:42 “Christ, the Saviour of the world.” Isaiah 43:11 “Jehovah; beside me there is no saviour.”

7. John 5:18 “said God was his Father, making himself equal with God”. John believed it and quoted it.

8. John 5:23 “all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father” Do you honour the Son as God?

9. John 6:46 “Not that any man hath seen the Father.” Who did OT saints see who they said was God?Is6:5

10. John 8:24 “If ye believe not that I am, ye shall die in your sins.” Jehovah is “I am” in Exodus 3:1-14.

11. John 8:58,59 “Before Abraham was, I am. They took up stones to cast at him.” Jesus said He is God.

12. John 10:30 “I and my Father are One. They took up stones to stone him.” No stoning if agree with God.

13. John 10:33 “thou being a man, makest thyself God. They sought again to take him (39)”. Why?

14. John 16:15 “All things that the Father hath are mine:” All the Father’s attributes as God are Christ’s.

15. John 17:5 “the glory which I had with thee before the world was.” Isaiah 42:8 “I am Jehovah: my glory will I not give to another.” Jesus is Jehovah because he alone shares Jehovah’s exclusive glory.

16. John 20:28 “Thomas said unto him (Jesus), My Lord and my God.” No rebuke for blasphemy or error.

17. Acts 20:28 “Feed the church of God, which he (God) hath purchased with his own blood.” Jesus =God

18. I Cor. 1:2 “all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ.” Prayer to Jesus makes him God.

19. I Corinthians 15:47 ‘the second man is the Lord from heaven’ This is Jesus. No man is from heaven.

20. II Corinthians 13:14 is the Apostolic Benediction:“The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.” (II Corinthians 13:14).

Why is there a change in the order of the persons of the Trinity, compared to Matthew 28:19, if not to show that in this Trinity none is before or after the other, and none is better than another?

21. Philippians 2:6 “Who being in the form of God (in His pre-incarnate state Christ had the form of God) thought it not robbery to be equal with God.” (a prize to be held on to, not a prize to be won. AT Robertson).

22. Colossians 2:9 “In him (Christ) dwells all the fullness (exhausts the limits) of the Godhead bodily.”

23. I Thes 4:14 “them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.” Jesus returns as God at rapture.

24. I Timothy 3:16 “God was manifest in the flesh.” Jesus is God the Son conceived in Mary.

25. Titus 2:13 “the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ.” Granville-Sharp rule: Jesus is God and Saviour.

26. Hebrews 1:6 “Let all the angels of God worship him.” Only worship God. Matt 4:10, Ps97:7 Son is God

27. Hebrews 1:8 “To the Son he saith, ‘Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever’” Psalm 45:6,7. Son is God.

28. Hebrew 1:10 “And (to the Son he saith), Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:.thou art the same.” Son is unchangeable creator. Ps102:24

29. Hebrews 1:13 To which of the angels said he, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? 35

30. I John 5:7 “There are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.” 
The heavenly and earthly witnesses in v.7,8 are confirmed in v.9 by God and men.

The masculine article (oi) for “that” in v.7 is derived from the masculine nouns “Father and Word” in v.7.

31. Revelation 1:17,18 “I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth and was dead;” Jesus = first and last.

Revelation 1:11 “I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last:” Jesus = first and last = Alpha and Omega.

Revelation 22:12,13 “I come quickly; I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last.” Jesus=Alpha & Omega.

Revelation 1:8 “I am Alpha and Omega, the Almighty.” Jesus = first & last = Alpha & Omega =Almighty

32. Revelation 22:3 “the throne of God and of the Lamb.” Both God and the Lamb equally own the throne.

Revelation 22:3 “his servants shall serve him:” Both God and the Lamb equally own the same servants.

Revelation 22:4 “they shall see his face.” Both God and the Lamb have the same face.

Revelation 22:4 “his name shall be in their foreheads.” Both God and the Lamb have the same name.

Revelation 20:6 “they shall be priests (of God and of Christ), and shall reign with HIM a thousand years” Revelation 21:22 “for (the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb) are the temple of it.” Both are temple of NJ Revelation 21:23 “for (the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light) thereof.” Both light of NJ

33. God identifies Himself as “us” (a Trinity) in:‘God said “let us make man in our image”’ Genesis 1:26 ‘Jehovah God said, “Behold the man is become as one of us . . .’ Genesis 3:22. ‘Jehovah came down … the Lord said, let us go down.’ Genesis 11:5,7 ‘who will go for us?’ Isaiah 6:8. 34. Exodus 3:14 “I AM hath sent me unto you.” ‘I AM’ is the name of the angel of Jehovah, Jehovah, God (2,4,6) & Jesus in John 8:58 “Before Abraham was, I AM” & John 8:24 “If ye believe not that I AM”

35. Psalm 110:1. God told David that David’s son would be David’s God. ‘The LORD (Jehovah) said unto my Lord (Adonai), Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.’ Jesus applied this to Himself in Matthew 22:41-45 as a question: ‘If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?’ This shows that Jesus Christ would be both a man descended from David and David’s God.

36. Isaiah 6:1-8,5. “Mine eyes have seen the King, Jehovah of hosts” on the throne in heaven. God asked Isaiah “who will go for us?” (‘us’ = trinity). In John 12:37-41, John said, “These things said Esaias when he saw his (Jesus) glory, and spake of him (Jesus).” Jesus was the King, Jehovah of hosts that Isaiah saw.

37. Isaiah 9:6 ‘Unto us a child is born (human Jesus),unto us a son is given (God the Son): his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The Mighty God.” Jehovah is Mighty God in Isaiah 10:21;Jer32:18; Ps 50:1

38. Isaiah 44:6 ‘Thus saith Jehovah the King of Israel (Father) and his redeemer Jehovah of hosts (Son)”

39. Isaiah 48:12,13,16 “Hearken unto me…Mine hand also has laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand has spanned the heavens:…Come ye near unto me,..the Lord GOD, and his Spirit has sent me.”

Me, mine, my and me is God the Son describing his two works of creation and of incarnation to save man.

40. Ezekiel 44:1,2 “This gate shall be shut…because Jehovah, the God of Israel has entered in by it.”

In Luke 19:45-47 Jesus, who is Jehovah, fulfilled this prophecy, entering the east gate on a colt in 33AD.

41. Hosea 4:1 and 5:15. Jehovah will return to ‘my place’ (heaven), till the Jews admit their offence of killing Jesus. “Hear the word of the LORD (Jehovah) (4:1),.I will go and return to my place (heaven), till they (Jews) acknowledge their offence (of killing Jesus), and seek my face: in their affliction (7 year tribulation) they (Jews) will seek me early.” Jehovah the Son came from heaven to be born of Mary as a man, he was rejected and crucified by the Jews. The resurrected Lord Jesus returned to heaven. Jesus will return when the Jews acknowledge their offence of killing Jesus. This occurs after the 7 year tribulation.

42. Zechariah 11:4,12,13. “Thus saith the LORD (Jehovah) my God; (v.4). If ye think good, give me my price; So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver (v.12)….I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the LORD’ (Zechariah 11:4,12,13). (silver, temple floor, potter field) These three prophecies were fulfilled in Judas betraying Jesus Christ in Matthew 26:14-16 and 27:3-10.

43. Zechariah 12:9-10. When Jesus Christ returns to earth, He is identified as Jehovah God whom Israel pierced on the cross. “I (Jehovah) will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem (v.9). They (Israel) shall look upon me (Jehovah) whom they have pierced.” Jesus fulfilled this in John 19:37.

44. Zechariah 14:3,4,5,9. When Jesus Christ returns to earth on the Mount of Olives, He is identified as Jehovah God (Zechariah 14:3,4). ‘Then shall the LORD (Jehovah) go forth and fight against those nations, And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives (v.3-4)....the LORD (Jehovah) my God shall come, and all the saints with thee (v.5)….the LORD (Jehovah) shall be king over all the earth.’ When Jesus ascended to heaven from the Mount of Olives, two angels told those witnesses present that “this same Jesus shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.” (Acts 1:10-12).

45. In Zechariah 2:8-11, Jehovah the Son states twice that Jehovah the Father has sent Him to Israel. This proves that there are at least two persons in the Godhead, both called Jehovah.

“For thus saith Jehovah of hosts (the Son).. (v.8) Ye shall know that Jehovah of hosts (the Father) hath sent me (v.9). ‘I (Jehovah the Son) will dwell in the midst of thee, and thou shalt know that Jehovah of hosts (Father) hath sent me unto thee.” (v.11).

Lesson: Jehovah (the Father) sends Jehovah (the Son). Two persons here are named Jehovah. This clearly proves that Jesus Christ in His pre-incarnate state is fully Jehovah God.

46. In Zechariah 3:2 “Jehovah said unto Satan, Jehovah rebuke thee, O Satan”.

One person in the Jehovah Godhead speaks about another person in the Jehovah Godhead. See Isaiah 48:16 Rules of Grammar dictate that: “Jehovah (the first person = person speaking) said unto Satan (the second person = person spoken to), Jehovah (the third person = person spoken about) rebuke thee.”

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3 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

If Jesus is God, he created Satan.

John 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 

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2 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

True. Doesn’t scripture refer to Christ as the firstborn (created)? Colossians 1:15 Then as the first created spirit child, he would experience the rest of all creation. Christ would be part of that creation, not as a creator, but the master builder. Once again, how can theologians resolve this conflict, If Jesus is referring to himself? Once again, why didn’t Satan understand he was speaking to God? Trinity is an independent view to oneness. This isn’t new as stated before. The conflict is how this oneness is interpreted. That is the special bond between God and Christ. Just as God the creator of all things, wanted to see that special bond he has with Christ for his chosen people, oneness. It's referring to unity just like a husband an wife become one flesh. all followers of Christ become one body in Christ. This is the correct way to view Tertullian's work.

 

it all depends on your interpretation of "firstborn" or rather 

G4416

πρωτοτόκος

prōtotokos

pro-tot-ok'-os

From G4413 and the alternate of G5088 ; first born (usually as {noun} literally or figuratively): - firstbegotten (-born).

 

But if we let scripture speak for itself,  what does John 1:3 say? Does it say that Jesus made everything that has ever been made and nothing that has ever been made was made without Him having made it? I believe it does.

There is no separation from verse 1 through 3 on who is the subject, the subject is Jesus. So with that being said, for Jesus to have been created, He would have to create Himself. 

 

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To add to my last post :

G4413

πρῶτος

prōtos

pro'-tos

Contracted superlative of G4253 ; foremost (in {time} {place} order or importance): - {before} {beginning} {best} chief ({-est}) first (of {all}) former.

 

G5088

τίκτω

tiktō

tik'-to

A strengthened from of a primary word τέκω tekō (which is used only as an alternate in certain tenses); to produce (from {seed} as a {mother} a {plant} the {earth} {etc.}) literal or figurative: - {bear} be {born} bring {forth} be {delivered} be in travail.

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@Jesus.defender Most of the stuff you said is a repeat from last time, Deserter and it has been confuted before and will always be confuted.

God cannot be his own mediator, for this role is for Jesus to the men he made the covenant with and on to the people of that same spiritual house.

God isn't a like a man or a son of man, or as Job puts it, he isn't men like us.

You cannot use Thomas either because Thomas was present when Martha spoke Jesus and Thomas was also there at Pentecost. When Jesus had risen, it was regarding seeing and believing - as to which you have been corrected on before and the final verse Jesus refereed to himself as God's Son.

And lastly, Jesus professed, even affirmed Shema Yisrael.

Your resolve holds no water, Deserter , as it has been before, to now and onward, nothing more than an imitation of the so called Christian known as Bob the Builder, therefore, the Trinity - is unbiblical and Scripturally unsound.

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This is all good stuff but it proves to me that God only gives the right information, through Holy spirit, to those whom He chooses. Hence for everyone to read the bible does not always prove good. Even those that study Theology don't get it right all the time.. 

We know of course that The Word / Jesus, was created by God the Father. Jesus made it so clear on many occasions. Such as saying :-

The Father is greater than i am...  And at Mark 13 v 32 

“Concerning that day or the hour nobody knows, neither the angels in heaven nor the Son, but the Father."  

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15 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

How else can this be interpreted when it amounts to the same thing. Jesus was first created. Begotten Son, firstborn. The implication is God is recycling himself, for what purpose. If we stick with scripture, once again it becomes a book of deception, not fact. Then, theology has to rethink where it is not making any kind of sense.

We cannot just rely on scripture that might support our personal point of view and nullify the rest. This is unheard of with scholars and theologians.

It is interpreted by means of scripture. 

First we have to agree that scripture does not contradict itself. agreed? 

If that is your belief as well, then great we are on the same page. 

If John 1:3 states that not a single thing came into existence without Jesus, what does that mean to you? Does it mean that Jesus created Himself? Before you jump to your answer, let me just say that I believe that Jesus was begotten. This is evident by scripture. What does that even mean? Begotten? To keep this as simple as we can, lets stick with the book of John for a minute. John 1:14 mentions that Jesus is begotten , the only begotten from the Father.

 

The word in Greek is:

G3439

μονογενής

monogenēs

mon-og-en-ace

From G3441 and G1096 ; only {born} that {is} sole: - only ({begotten} child).

 

Which is derived from G3441 and G1096 which are:

G3441

μόνος

monos

mon'-os

Probably from G3306 ; {remaining} that {is} sole or single ; by implication mere: - {alone} {only} by themselves.

 

and 

 

G1096

γίνομαι

ginomai

ghin'-om-ahee

A prolonged and middle form of a primary verb; to cause to be ( gen {-erate}) that {is} (reflexively) to become ( come into {being }) used with great latitude ({literally} {figuratively} {intensively} etc.): - arise be {assembled} be ({come} {-fall} -have {self}) be brought (to {pass}) (be) come (to {pass}) {continue} be {divided} be {done} {draw} be {ended} {fall} be {finished} {follow} be {found} be {fulfilled} + God {forbid} {grow} {happen} {have} be {kept} be {made} be {married} be ordained to {be} {partake} {pass} be {performed} be {published} {require} {seem} be {showed} X soon as it {was} {sound} be {taken} be {turned} {use} {wax} {will} {would} be wrought.

 

As we can see here is means single,only,sole of what? to become, be brought to, to cause to be. Sounds very much like created, I agree. However, within context of John 1:3, it would mean that Jesus created Himself. The writers could have also used a different word in John 1:14 instead of begotten and that would be :

G2936

κτίζω

ktizō

ktid'-zo

Probably akin to G2932 (through the idea of the proprietorship of the manufacturer ); to {fabricate} that {is} found ( form originally): - {create} {Creator} make.

Clearly this kitzo has the meaning of created and it is used throughout the New Testament when read in context. But that wasn't the word used to describe Jesus. The idea of begotten is only found in the New Testament 9 times with 6 of those attributed to Jesus. The other 3 are speaking of a single child of a father or mother. This is true, but if you look at how it is used towards Jesus vs how it is used towards the son or daughter the other three times, you see a vast difference of importance within context.

Did Jesus come from the Father? yes.

Is Jesus unlike ANY other? yes

Was Jesus created? no. 

16 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

The metaphor of firstborn is of course, figurative. God is not male or female. He is internal energy. This makes it clear God creates not gives birth.

I agree with this statement. 

 

I have provided scripture and definitions from Strong's to support my belief. I haven't nullified any scripture nor ignored any. please demonstrate from your perspective, with Scripture and we can go from there. 

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We here seem to agree that this man made doctrine of the trinity is a false one, contradicting itself when read against the entire theme of scripture. Using the context of the sense  "only begotten son" , the only other time this phrase was used in scripture was for the son of Abraham. How do we understand that Isaac was such a child? The same way the only BEGOTTEN, created by the hand of Jehovah God ONLY SON, was in the beginning. After which all other life came into existence through him and by him as scripture states. And Revelation 4:11 tells us that it is by Jehovah God's will that all things were created. ALL THINGS, even his son, the Word, at the start. Jehovah is alone, with a son, no equal. But his son is a chip off the old block. Knows how his Father thinks and feels. They had been together for eons of time before other spirit creatures came to exist. And even longer before physical life came to be. When that spirit son came to exist on earth, he was known by the demonic creatures he encountered and they had no problem with knowing who he really was. Never did they call him God. Gabriel when announcing his birth also knew was coming and it was not the Almighty God from heaven, but he was sending his Son. Gabriel knew that. And it was so recorded in scripture. So why now after his leaving going back to heaven there is this confusion about who Jesus Christ truly is, son of God or God himself? Because of this rancid doctrine that falsely teaches a lie. Jesus prayed at John 17:26 that he had made his Father's name known, not his own. He also prayed that the union he enjoyed with his Father, that his disciples would come to also enjoy with Jehovah. Never taught, never that he was God. The voice from heaven each of the three times it spoke never confirmed that it was talking to God, but 'MY SON' each time. So if the sky is blue and one keeps saying it is not, that person can't be helped. The conversation is hopeless.

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4 hours ago, John Houston said:

Revelation 4:11 tells us that it is by Jehovah God's will that all things were created.

I like using the Revelation on this topic. It says at Rev.1:1 that it is "A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him,"

Haven't seen anyone successfully wrestle with this.

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5 hours ago, Outta Here said:

I like using the Revelation on this topic. It says at Rev.1:1 that it is "A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him,"

Haven't seen anyone successfully wrestle with this.

Or this one.... Wait for it.... Acts 2 pretty much tells you God raised Jesus from the Dead, and he made Jesus both Lord and Christ. Trinitarians do not like to go to Acts 1 and 2 at all.

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6 hours ago, Outta Here said:

I like using the Revelation on this topic. It says at Rev.1:1 that it is "A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him,"

Haven't seen anyone successfully wrestle with this.

I like that one too

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@Anna And even if you profess the truth, Trinitarians still remain in denial and go about mental gymnastics, they make claim to the Trinity when the apostolic church proves them otherwise and the teachings of that church still remains today, that God is Jesus' Father and Jesus is the Son of God.

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On 11/2/2018 at 3:55 PM, BillyTheKid46 said:

Unfortunately, you have nullified much of what scripture has given in favor of Christ being the son.

please demonstrate where I have nullified anything. Is it here where I quoted myself? 

On 11/2/2018 at 2:24 PM, Shiwiii said:

let me just say that I believe that Jesus was begotten.

 

On 11/2/2018 at 3:55 PM, BillyTheKid46 said:

We can agree that scripture cannot contradict itself.

Great, so what part of John 1:3 says Jesus created Himself? Or that Jesus was created? I think John 1:3 clearly states that not one thing that was created was created without Jesus. 

On 11/2/2018 at 3:55 PM, BillyTheKid46 said:

Therefore, the oneness in John 1:3 applies to the first. This is the only way it can be interpreted. Strong, supports this understanding as well. The cognitive debate is on how its meant in John. In this case, it is referring to firstborn. Firstborn in human form by a spirit entity. Jesus helped god, and through him, things came to be. John used this understanding to illustrate the unity Jesus and God have.

so in this part of your post, let me see if I follow you, are you saying that Jesus being born here on Earth is the part where firstborn comes in? obviously Jesus was not the first person born here on Earth, but He is the firstborn of God. This singles Him out from among other's by different means then physical birth, it must have more meaning. Correct? 

Lets look at Issac, why was he called "firstborn"? He wasn't the first child born to Abraham. 

On 11/2/2018 at 3:55 PM, BillyTheKid46 said:

Lust-Eynikel-Hauspie, a Greek-English Lexicon of the Septuagint (LEH)

See here I have not a problem, per se, but a question. Why are you using a lexicon of the Septuagint when dealing with the New Testament? The Septuagint is the translation of the Hebrew scriptures into Greek, Old Testament to Greek. Either way, when you read the lexicon for the Septuagint you ARE getting the meanings of the Greek words that best represent the Hebrew meaning and then converting it into English(or whatever language). To convey the meaning from Hebrew to Greek is not an easy task, but to then convert it into English it compounds the loss of meaning and breaks it down to what "best fits".  Nothing wrong with that, but you must keep that in mind if you are going to use this as your support. And by the way, I noticed you didn't use any scripture to support your position. John 1:3 doesn't count since it is our subject. 

 

So if scripture cannot contradict itself, explain to me using scripture how John 1:3 doesn't say that Jesus created everything that was created and without Him nothing was created. 

 

 

 

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13 hours ago, John Houston said:

And Revelation 4:11 tells us that it is by Jehovah God's will that all things were created. ALL THINGS, even his son, the Word, at the start.

does this not contradict John 1:3? how do YOU reconcile the two scriptures? 

 

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3 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

Or this one.... Wait for it.... Acts 2 pretty much tells you God raised Jesus from the Dead, and he made Jesus both Lord and Christ. Trinitarians do not like to go to Acts 1 and 2 at all.

I agree that God raised Jesus from the dead (Acts 2:24). Who did it, or claimed to do it, according to these scriptures:

John 2:19  ?

Romans 8:11  ?

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4 minutes ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

I don't believe I mentioned it did. The way Trinitarians want it to be explained is how John becomes nullified since Christ did not create himself, just like God was not created by our definition of creation.  Keep in mind the imperative here, through him, in John. God continued his creation along with Michael. They are still separate entities bonded in a union for one common goal, to continue with creation. Where would you place trinity in this instance to mean Jesus and God, 2=1 Jesus is God?

John 1:3 still says that not one thing that was created was created without Jesus. 

 

I'm not even talking about the trinity, I am talking about how John 1:3 says that nothing was created without Jesus. How is that so? 

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Just now, BillyTheKid46 said:

Firstborn through God's spirit, correct, not created as Adam. However, you can include firstborn spirit child (Perfect) that remained a perfect spiritual human. Jesus did not lose his perfection, like Adam.

I can agree here, but nothing says Jesus was created. Firstborn, yes, but the meaning of firstborn in context is not synonymous with created. 

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32 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

I agree that God raised Jesus from the dead (Acts 2:24). Who did it, or claimed to do it, according to these scriptures:

It was professed that it was God who raised Jesus from the Dead, as well as God making him both the Lord and Christ.

33 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

John 2:19  ?

The verse conveys that the Father raised Jesus from the dead. Jesus was the Father's Word and the Father spoke decisively when He raised Jesus from the dead.

When Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up and we can see the reaction and action from the Jews taken after this was said.

The facts show us that his body was the Temple of God; the Word tabernacled in human flesh and that flesh was the Father's Temple. He, this body of flesh, was the Father's Word and he spoke the words of the Father, as we are well aware of regarding the Old and New Testament and by means of whom Jesus came from. And clearly this did not sit well with the Jews and they plot to kill him.

Matthew 26:59-61, 27:39, 40 and  Mark 14:57, 58 are also references.

41 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

Romans 8:11  ?

You technically answered yourself with this one granted that Romans 8:11 points back to Acts 2:24 and in addition to the other references being Ephesians 2:1, 5. For indeed, God was the one responsible for taking the Lord out of the pangs of Death.

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18 minutes ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Scholastically, there are many renders to biblical understanding. I find it useful when we make certain observations about context and intent. This is meant to show those variations when we are attempting to be absolute.

sure, but translating words from one language to another just to translate it again to another, is losing its meaning.

 

1 hour ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

We would like to think that God used Michael to create. In common sense, we are referring to creation. Can there be two creators? if so, who is the highest of them, or can they be equal. Did God create Michael as an equal? Scripture doesn't bear witness to that. Once again, are we trying to add to scripture which is forbidden by God?

The problem I have with this thinking is that it is not backup by scripture and contradicts John 1:3. 

 

1 hour ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Then we would have to believe in one of two things. Certain ideas come to mind. Either God is a woman, or God had a wife. Is this unheard of? no, there are some that have investigated these claims. If we stick with scripture, there is only one way to look at God. As a creator. Firstborn would fall under that category.

This is interjecting ideas not found within our topic of conversation. I agree, lets stick to scripture. What does John 1:3 say? How can this be reconciled to the rest of scripture in regards to creation? 

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41 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

When Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up and we can see the reaction and action from the Jews taken after this was said.

The facts show us that his body was the Temple of God; the Word tabernacled in human flesh and that flesh was the Father's Temple. He, this body of flesh, was the Father's Word and he spoke the words of the Father, as we are well aware of regarding the Old and New Testament and by means of whom Jesus came from. And clearly this did not sit well with the Jews and they plot to kill him.

Matthew 26:59-61, 27:39, 40 and  Mark 14:57, 58 are also references.

Right, Jesus said He would raise Himself up. Which He did. So here Jesus raised Himself. 

Yes, of course the Jews didn't like it, because He claimed something that only God could claim. 

 

42 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

You technically answered yourself with this one granted that Romans 8:11 points back to Acts 2:24 and in addition to the other references being Ephesians 2:1, 5. For indeed, God was the one responsible for taking the Lord out of the pangs of Death.

Right, so the Spirit of God, also called the Holy Spirit, raised Jesus from the dead. Yes it does reference back to Acts 2:24. Another instance of this is in Acts as well, Acts 13:2

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2 minutes ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Okay. Let’s look at John 2:19 What is Jesus intent. The context is clear. To cleanse the temple after the Jews demanded proof of Jesus Authority.

 

Even if you destroy this temple, in three days I will raise it up again.

 

While the Jews were literally talking about a physical temple, Jesus was referring to himself. Isn’t that what happened?

absolutely! What did happen? Jesus said He would raise Himself and that is what happened. He was raised. Here in John 2:19 He says He would do it. I agree that Jesus was speaking of His body as the temple. It was exactly this, His body,  that He said He would raise. It was done just as He said it would be. Did this confuse the Jews? Kind of, because they missed the part that He was talking about His body/Temple. They thought the actual temple that THEY build. 

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1 minute ago, Shiwiii said:

Right, Jesus said He would raise Himself up. Which He did. So here Jesus raised Himself. 

The only factor that plays against you is the fact Jesus was/is able to do nothing himself expect the Father who is able to do these things.

In the Gospel of John, Jesus insisted that he was not able to do anything from himself. As he himself testified, it was the Father abiding in him who did the works (John 14:10; cf. Matt 12:28; Acts 2:22). Now, to you, if this was true of Jesus while he was alive and well, how much more was he unable to do anything of himself when he was laying dead in a tomb.

  • John 5:30 - I can do nothing on my own. As I hear, I judge, and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me.

The other factor against you in this regard what is said in other verses in Acts and elsewhere, I can think of 16 verses, coupled with references and context, right now.

7 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

Yes, of course the Jews didn't like it, because He claimed something that only God could claim. 

Not to mention they misinterpret what he said, as is done before.

7 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

Right, so the Spirit of God, also called the Holy Spirit, raised Jesus from the dead. Yes it does reference back to Acts 2:24. Another instance of this is in Acts as well, Acts 13:2

So how, according to you does that relate back to Acts 2:24 when Acts 13:2 is not a cross-references to the core passage in of itself?

We also should not be leaving out the fact the verse professed before states that He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit which dwells in you. So yes.

As for Acts 13:2 it reads: While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, “Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.”

The Holy Spirit is spoken of many, many times in the Greek Text as it is mentioned here as well, and the focus here is the Christ who has died and has risen, Acts 13:2 focuses on such ones ministering for God. The references for this verse points to Ac 9:15 and 1 Timothy 2:7, even while outlined nothing points back in references to Jesus being risen from the tomb.

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@BillyTheKid46 Well there is more, including the ones all 3 of us had mentioned.

That being,

  • God raised him up again, having loosed the pangs of death, since it was not possible for him to be held by it. (Acts 2:24).
  • This Jesus God raised up again. (Acts 2:32). 
  • You put to death the Prince of life, the one whom God raised from the dead, a fact to which we are witnesses. (Acts 3:15). 
  • Jesus Christ the Nazarene, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead (Acts 4:10). 
  • The God of our fathers raised Jesus, whom you killed by hanging him on a tree. (Acts 5:30). 
  • God raised him up on the third day (Acts 10:40). 
  • God raised Him from the dead... God has fulfilled this promise to our children in that He raised up Jesus, as it is also written in the second Psalm, "You are My son; Today I have begotten You." He raised him up from the dead, no longer to return to corruption... He whom God raised did not undergo corruption (Acts 13:30-37). 
  • His Son, who came to be out the seed of David according to the flesh, fixed son of God in power by the resurrection out of the dead, according to the Spirit of Holiness, Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 1:3-4) 
  • Those who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. (Romans 4:24). 
  • Therefore we have been buried with him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. (Romans 6:4)
  • But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit which dwells in you. (Romans 8:11).
  • God raised him from the dead. (Romans 10:9). 
  • Now God has not only raised the Lord, but will also raise us up through His power. (1 Corinthians 6:14). 
  • Moreover we are even found to be false witnesses of God, because we testified against God that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised. (1 Corinthians 15:15). 
  • We also believe, therefore we also speak knowing that He who raised the Lord Jesus will raise us also with Jesus.
  • (2 Corinthians 4:13-14). 
  • The God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.... He raised him from the dead and seated him at His right hand in the heavenlies (Ephesians 1:17-20). 
  • You turned to God from idols to serve a living and true God, and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead. (1 Thessalonians 1:10) 
  • ...through him are believers in God, who raised him from the dead and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God. (1 Peter 1:21)
  • God the Father, who raised him from the dead. (Galatians 1:1).

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25 minutes ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

By reading scripture correctly, I cannot agree with your assessment. Jesus was being symbolic as to the intent, whoever literal as to his Father's power to raise him. This is indeed how the interpretation is rendered within Christendom.

what was symbolic was "His body" and this is also confirmed by Scripture. John 2:21and 22 attest to this. Not symbolic as to who was going to do it. This is proven by the answer by the Jews. 

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31 minutes ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

I'm afraid it does. When dealing with the word firstborn, it doesn't mean Jesus was born in the heavens but was created to be part of God's creation of the heavens and earth. This means every spirit entity, the heavens, earth, animals, vegetation, and humans. The only difference, everything after Jesus was second.

again, you mention created and there is no scriptural support for Jesus being created. No scripture says that AFTER Jesus was created, THEN He created everything else. 

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25 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

The only factor that plays against you is the fact Jesus was/is able to do nothing himself expect the Father who is able to do these things.

irregardless, What John 1:3 says is that Jesus created everything that was created. It does not say everything after He Himself was created. 

 

27 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

Not to mention they misinterpret what he said, as is done before.

yes they did, as mentioned to Billy. They thought of the temple THEY built. 

 

28 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

So how, according to you does that relate back to Acts 2:24 when Acts 13:2 is not a cross-references to the core passage in of itself?

It correlates just as I said, It is another instance of the Holy Spirit. 

 

28 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

We also should not be leaving out the fact the verse professed before states that He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit which dwells in you. So yes.

agreed

 

29 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

nothing points back in references to Jesus being risen from the tomb.

well John 2:19 does.  It clearly states who will raise the "temple of His body", Himself.  

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22 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:
  • God raised him up again, having loosed the pangs of death, since it was not possible for him to be held by it. (Acts 2:24).
  • This Jesus God raised up again. (Acts 2:32). 
  • You put to death the Prince of life, the one whom God raised from the dead, a fact to which we are witnesses. (Acts 3:15). 
  • Jesus Christ the Nazarene, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead (Acts 4:10). 
  • The God of our fathers raised Jesus, whom you killed by hanging him on a tree. (Acts 5:30). 
  • God raised him up on the third day (Acts 10:40). 
  • God raised Him from the dead... God has fulfilled this promise to our children in that He raised up Jesus, as it is also written in the second Psalm, "You are My son; Today I have begotten You." He raised him up from the dead, no longer to return to corruption... He whom God raised did not undergo corruption (Acts 13:30-37). 
  • His Son, who came to be out the seed of David according to the flesh, fixed son of God in power by the resurrection out of the dead, according to the Spirit of Holiness, Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 1:3-4) 
  • Those who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. (Romans 4:24). 
  • Therefore we have been buried with him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. (Romans 6:4)
  • But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit which dwells in you. (Romans 8:11).
  • God raised him from the dead. (Romans 10:9). 
  • Now God has not only raised the Lord, but will also raise us up through His power. (1 Corinthians 6:14). 
  • Moreover we are even found to be false witnesses of God, because we testified against God that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised. (1 Corinthians 15:15). 
  • We also believe, therefore we also speak knowing that He who raised the Lord Jesus will raise us also with Jesus.
  • (2 Corinthians 4:13-14). 
  • The God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.... He raised him from the dead and seated him at His right hand in the heavenlies (Ephesians 1:17-20). 
  • You turned to God from idols to serve a living and true God, and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead. (1 Thessalonians 1:10) 
  • ...through him are believers in God, who raised him from the dead and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God. (1 Peter 1:21)
  • God the Father, who raised him from the dead. (Galatians 1:1).

I cannot argue that these clearly state God raised Jesus. It is my personal belief that Jesus is YHWH with my support from scripture. I thank you for always providing scripture to support your position as well Space.  The only thing I can do is accept also that John 2:19 states Jesus did it. You can dismiss this account in John 2 if you'd like with other scriptures, but the fact of the matter is I cannot and to me scripture cannot contradict itself, so there HAS to be some way to reconcile these within what is written. So far nothing in scripture shows me otherwise. 

If I die and God says to me "you dummy, that's not what it meant" well, then I can only ask for forgiveness for taking His word literally where it is clear as crystal to me. To me, the evidence shows me that yes, Jesus IS God as well as the Father is God and the Holy Spirit is God. That is what I will be judged on when it comes time I guess.  

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13 minutes ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

I will have to disagree with you on this one. by understanding the nature in which Christ meant in 1 Corinthians 8:6

we can understand the intent in Colossians 1:16. another text favored by Trinitarians. However, you have admitted this is how you wish to interpret scripture. Then is no need to continue.  We will be judged by our creator regardless. God made it a choice. You have chosen. Now it's up to the rest of us, to adequately learn scripture from our heavenly father Jehovah, through his son Jesus Christ, and may we duel in God's Holy Spirit.

By all means please show me a scripture that corrects my thinking and makes John 1:3 clear as crystal. 1 Cor 8:6 does not solve the perceived contradiction. 

Do you at least agree that John 1:3 says that Jesus created everything that was created and without Him nothing was created? 

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You tend to use the scripture written by John, who learn by the time he penned this gospel the true nature of Christ. And he truthfully states that Jesus was WITH God, not that he WAS God, right? At the very beginning verse 1, in the beginning the Word was WITH God. Verse 2 then says again WITH God. John calls the Word ' an only-begotten son'. And how could this person do what verse 18 says? " who is at the Father's side"? At verse 29, right before being baptized how did John the Baptizer identify him? As God? No! The Lamb of God! And he was sent by One above him, his Father. And at verse 34, the apostle John writes and calls Jesus, 'this one is the Son of God.' It was only after Jesus died and returned to heaven there was confusion about who,he was. His apostles knew he was the Son of God. The demons knew he was the Son of God. Gabriel the angel who announced his birth knew he was the Son of God. The angels who sang praises at his birth also knew. Yet, we now are confused following a teaching that he never supported. A lie that smears his Father's name that which he said he came to make known. Yes, this is a discussion that will only be made if one has a humble heart to listen to the truth of scripture. Not the treacherous things of ones own heart.

Rockafeller was a well financed man and many structures are attributed to him, but how many did he actually build? But by his will of money they were erected through construction companies, architects and the rest. It happens daily around the world, yet we can not agree that the Almighty God could delegate such to,his Son, which is how the scriptures read. Having Christ sitting at his right side until the time is right for him to rule in the kingdom over the earth. It is there, many will not see. And as you said you have made your choice. Being told that it was a mistake.... it is! One other thing, none of Christ's parables spoke of him as God, but as the Son in all of them, not the Father. He was to be subjective again as he was in the beginning as Paul wrote in Corinthians. Jehovah God would be the One over all even Jesus, not being him, or vice versa. Yes, it is true the Bible does not contradict itself, all scripture are inspired for setting things straight. But many still abuse them for their own agenda. Please keep reading it, you just may find what it really teaches.

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20 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

I cannot argue that these clearly state God raised Jesus.

Nowhere does in the bible does it state Jesus is God because the verse tells you of what he met by the Temple, which is the Temple of his Body. For if Jesus was indeed God, it would discredited the very fact that in other verses it is made known that God also dwells in True Christians as he dwells in Jesus, the fullness of deity that dwells in him and them, according to the verses.

The additional verses listed above, several of them, if not most, cross-references with each other regarding that passage, not only does it show that it I.D.s both the Father and Son, it shows you clearly that God had a role in Jesus' resurrection, for the Bible speaks of God as being the life-giver, and in giving life he does to the Son, and giving the authority and power to the Son so that he too can resurrect a great multitude of people and I agree with what was said to Jesus in the same gospel, that whatever he asks from God, God will give to him.

20 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

It is my personal belief that Jesus is YHWH with my support from scripture.

That is understandable, but the Bible does not show anywhere that the Son is El Shaddai, the Son was sent [Shaliach] by El Shaddai. It is wiser to take in what the Bible says and what the followers of the Christ taught, in turn, taught to the people, the church.
That being said, in Trinity doctrine, the Father is not Jesus and Jesus is not the Father. For one to say Jesus raised himself is also to say the Father did not raise Jesus because Jesus is not the Father, or perhaps to say the Father raised Jesus is also to say that Jesus did not raise himself.


To profess that Jesus raised himself from the dead is also to say it was not the Triune God who raised Jesus since Jesus is not the Triune being and the Triune being is not Jesus, for what it lands in another factor of confusion when a claim is made that Jesus raised himself and then insist that two other persons raised that same "himself". 


Which makes the problem an even bigger fire is that it puts one in a position to believe in 4 that different identities raised this particular himself:

 

  • (1) the Father
  • (2) the Son
  • (3) the Holy Spirit
  • (4) the Triune God

Resulting in such ones who believe somehow Jesus is El Shaddai, YHWH, they are put in a situation that renders them unable to see or acknowledge their own contradictory confusion.
Another factor is that YHWH himself, is incorruptible, not like a man or a son of man, and only YHWH, all of which the Bible makes it clear of several times, furthermore, is identified as the Father, as well as God, and by the Law, this is stated as well, something of which I believe I stated before.

20 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

 I thank you for always providing scripture to support your position as well Space.

Anytime, for the Bible and the context that comes from Scripture is always key- nothing cannot be left out and everything must be taken to understand the apostolic church's position - which lines up with that age.

20 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

The only thing I can do is accept also that John 2:19 states Jesus did it. You can dismiss this account in John 2 if you'd like with other scriptures, but the fact of the matter is I cannot and to me scripture cannot contradict itself, so there HAS to be some way to reconcile these within what is written. So far nothing in scripture shows me otherwise. 

I never dismiss Scriptures, if I had, it would defeat the utmost respect and practice of Biblical Hermeneutics in my case, after all, I respect the verse and passage by making use of the cross-references and as with anyone who practices Biblical Hermeneutics, all things must be taken into account and anything pertaining to how the passage connects harmonious with anything pertaining to an event read in the Bible, that includes all verses that line up with that time-frame of Christ Jesus and the meaning of what he said, furthermore, there is no contradiction, granted that among the source gospel accounts, John's gospel was the unique one, if I may add. The specific account in John 2 (the passage in question being 13-22).

Now, the claim here regarding John 2:19 to some means Jesus raised himself. For after reading this without further study and or ignoring the cross-references that brings forth the context, one would read into it as is and look no further after that. This brings the reason of such ones who don't see the problem with their claim; [God the Father raised Jesus from the dead], [the Holy Spirit raised Jesus from the dead], and [Jesus raised himself from the dead]. 


When context is taken seriously and the references, it is clear of who raised Jesus from the Dead to fulfill what was said, as well as what was in use by means of it, and as we can see when Jesus actually died, he was actually dead for that time when he was later resurrected.


To believe that all 3 persons of Trinity doctrine raised Jesus from the dead, therefore, it is concluded to such ones that the Triune God raised Jesus from the dead and here is where the confusion manifests in of itself.


Outside of the realm of confusion, as the Bible itself professes when context is put forth in application.


Unfortunately, people who take this claim seriously without application of context don't always understand that they aren't making any sense at times. In the doctrine of the Trinity, the Father is not the Triune being, the Son is not the Triune being, and the Holy Spirit is not the Triune being, and conversely, the Triune being is not the Father, the Triune being is not the Son, and the Triune being is not the Holy Spirit; to say Jesus raised himself is therefore to say the Triune being did not raise Jesus because Jesus is not the Triune being in Trinity doctrine or to say the Triune being raised Jesus is to say that Jesus did not raise himself since the Triune being is not the Jesus, for the Father raised Jesus from the dead in addition with Jesus raised Jesus from the dead and the Holy Spirit raised Jesus from the dead - that amounts to the Triune God raising Jesus from the dead, granted that Jesus himself actually did perish, in this case actually died, or as the Bible says - expired.

What some fail to see is that if they make such a claim, they can't say the Father raised Jesus from the dead nor can they say Jesus raised Jesus from the dead nor can they say the Holy Spirit raised Jesus from the dead because any one of these 3 is not the Triune God in their own doctrine of the Trinity.

Simply put, to claim the Triune God raised Jesus contradicts the claim that Jesus raised himself. In the Doctrine of the Trinity, you simply cannot say that the Triune God raised Jesus from the dead and also insist Jesus raised himself from the dead, and hope to make any kind of sense whatsoever because Jesus is not the Triune God, and the Triune God is not Jesus. The Triune God raised Jesus from the dead or Jesus raised himself from the dead. Therefore, in the doctrine of the Trinity, you can't claim both without contradicting yourself in the process.

20 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

If I die and God says to me "you dummy, that's not what it meant" well, then I can only ask for forgiveness for taking His word literally where it is clear as crystal to me.

And yet when God speaks, he wants us to understand His Word, and but forth the application, and his own Son speaks God's Word, hence Shalich Principle in play on Jesus' part.


All things should be taken into consideration.

20 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

To me, the evidence shows me that yes, Jesus IS God as well as the Father is God and the Holy Spirit is God.

John 2:19 does not amount to any evidence that Jesus is God at all (especially if you take in the meaning of his words along with the references), he speaks of the Temple of His Body, and the very fact Jesus, while on earth was corruptible, capable of dying and has died, thus showing you that he was like us of mankind, who was indeed born a Jew into the Law (Galatians 4:4).

The next factor is the fact that Jesus profess Shema, God cannot profess Shema because he is the one who gave this Law to Moses in which he and the people followed well into Paul and Jesus' day and into present day - us. And the other regarding Jesus being a mediator between 2 parties [God and the disciples he spoke regarding the Covenant with in regards to Spiritual Israel].


In the Bible we only see the Father identified as God, many times, and we see people who know, even demons and the fallen one himself, that Jesus is God's Son, and Jesus himself is well aware of the one who sent him and the Will of whom he is doing as well as the one who raised him from the Dead, thus making him the Firstborn out of the Dead and the First of the Firstfruits.

 

There is only one God, not three.

20 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

That is what I will be judged on when it comes time I guess.  

Well I suggest you make more research regarding the Bible and not wait around for Judgement. Just as when Jesus was a child who observe, recite and read the Old Testament, learned of who the God of Israel is and what he had done, for us today we must do the same, and read the word daily and take everything into consideration as with the cross-references and context that comes from the Bible.

20 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

irregardless, What John 1:3 says is that Jesus created everything that was created. It does not say everything after He Himself was created. 

for John 1:3, it is also best to carefully consider John 1:5, the Light shines in the darkness, it is obviously apparent that these words are referring to the ministry of Jesus  as seen in John 3:19-21, 8:12, 9:5 and 12:35-36, granted the very first chapter of John is John's Introductory. Moving into verse 4, we also read that life was in the Word and that life was the Light of men. It should be taken into consideration here that John is not referring to the Genesis act of creation at this point. The true Light which enlightens every man was presently coming into the world (John 1:9). The last part of verse 3, in connection with verse 4 indicates that life and light came into existence by means of the Word. (Colossians 1:15, 16).


With this information in view, it is obviously apparent that John 1:3 is not referring to the Genesis act of creation but to all the things that came to be through the proclamation of the Word, through the ministry of Jesus. For this reason, Jesus cried, It is finished (it has been accomplished) later down the road when he was killed by means of Crucifixion; just as we find God was finished all His works in the Genesis act of creation, the same regarding the one sent by means of Shaliach Principle. Jesus' ministry was the beginning of the new creation of God, whereas our risen Lord, Christ Jesus, is the first of the firstfruits of that new creation (as well as the one Firstborn out of death), the beginning of the creation of God, mainly when it can be understood what the new earth and new heavens entails regarding said new creation.

20 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

yes they did, as mentioned to Billy. They thought of the temple THEY built. 

Indeed, but the Temple in question is His Body, the Body of our Lord, Christ Jesus, in turn the Father's Temple due to the very fact God does his Purpose and Will through his Son. That temple of which they were thinking about was The Temple of Herod.

20 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

It correlates just as I said, It is another instance of the Holy Spirit. 

Yes, the Holy Spirit is mention in both verses, but you have one instance regarding the Christ regarding him being risen on the 3rd day and the other regarding those who are ministers. Because the Holy Spirit is mention in both instances, does not equate the two into being the same event, despite Holy Spirit being one of 90 or so occurrences in various instances in the Greek New Testament.

20 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

agreed

If so why state Jesus raised himself when the Bible itself has made it clear he had expired?

20 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

well John 2:19 does.  It clearly states who will raise the "temple of His body", Himself.  

You sure? Can you show me Acts 13:2 references regarding John 2:19? Regarding my response to you is as followed: [Acts 13:2 focuses on such ones ministering for God. The references for this verse points to Ac 9:15 and 1 Timothy 2:7, even while outlined nothing points back in references to Jesus being risen from the tomb....], I do not see Acts 13:2 pointing back to John 2:19 - anywhere, even while outlined.

    • Hello guest!
    • Hello guest!
    • Hello guest!

The only verses Acts 13:2 cross-references to and points back to even in outline form is
Deuteronomy 10:8, 1 Samuel 2:11, Daniel 9:3, Matthew 9:38, Luke 2:37, 1 Timothy 2:7 (as mentioned), 2 Timothy 1:11, Acts 8:29, 9:15 (as mentioned), 22:21, 14:26, Romans 1:1, 1 Corinthians 12:11, Galatians 1:15, 2:8-9, Ephesians 3:7, Hebrews 5:4, etc and dozens more, including the ones above amounting to a total of 41 verses (with 1 Chronicles 16:37-43 bringing the count up by 47 verses).


That being said, even regarding Acts 13:2, both John 2:19 and Romans 18:11, is nowhere to be found, even in cross-references without outline in the Bible itself does not say and it only points back to the 2 verses already mentioned, granted that both instances were and are entirely different, despite the Spirit of God being mentioned in both instances.

And the bible informs us the Christ had expired and God had a hand in his resurrection.

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56 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

Nowhere does in the bible does it state Jesus is God because the verse tells you of what he met by the Temple, which is the Temple of his Body. For if Jesus was indeed God, it would discredited the very fact that in other verses it is made known that God also dwells in True Christians as he dwells in Jesus, the fullness of deity that dwells in him and them, according to the verses.

The additional verses listed above, several of them, if not most, cross-references with each other regarding that passage, not only does it show that it I.D.s both the Father and Son, it shows you clearly that God had a role in Jesus' resurrection, for the Bible speaks of God as being the life-giver, and in giving life he does to the Son, and giving the authority and power to the Son so that he too can resurrect a great multitude of people and I agree with what was said to Jesus in the same gospel, that whatever he asks from God, God will give to him.

Of course the verse tells us what He meant by the temple, at this time we're not talking about the temple, we're talking about who was going to raise it. The verse says Jesus. This particular point is one of a few that I base my belief on . If Jesus said He would raise Himself, He is either a liar, or it is true.  We know that Jesus is not a liar, so it HAS to be true. The verse quotes Jesus saying that He would raise Himself. This, coupled with the other verses that state God would raise Him, leaves a tough position for those who claim that Jesus isn't God because of the direct parallel between who raises Jesus. There is no denying that Jesus said He would raise Himself in 3 days according to John. 

 

1 hour ago, Space Merchant said:

That being said, in Trinity doctrine, the Father is not Jesus and Jesus is not the Father. For one to say Jesus raised himself is also to say the Father did not raise Jesus because Jesus is not the Father, or perhaps to say the Father raised Jesus is also to say that Jesus did not raise himself.


To profess that Jesus raised himself from the dead is also to say it was not the Triune God who raised Jesus since Jesus is not the Triune being and the Triune being is not Jesus, for what it lands in another factor of confusion when a claim is made that Jesus raised himself and then insist that two other persons raised that same "himself". 

I think you may have an idea of what the trinity is, but lack understanding of how it works. By saying Jesus raised Himself it does not reject the idea that the Father raised Him, nor the Holy Spirit. There are verses which we have quoted each other in this thread that testify to all three being attributed to raising Jesus. Since the scriptures cannot be contradictory then there has to be an explanation and all of those verses have to be true. 

1 hour ago, Space Merchant said:

Another factor is that YHWH himself, is incorruptible, not like a man or a son of man, and only YHWH, all of which the Bible makes it clear of several times, furthermore, is identified as the Father, as well as God, and by the Law, this is stated as well, something of which I believe I stated before.

and yet, many many scriptures are quoting the OT about YHWH and attributes those same qualities or actions to Jesus. 

5 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

Well I suggest you make more research regarding the Bible and not wait around for Judgement.

so what you are saying is research until I come to your conclusion? like I said, if I am wrong for taking God's word directly as it is clear to me, so be it. 

5 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

John 2:19 does not amount to any evidence that Jesus is God at all (especially if you take in the meaning of his words along with the references), he speaks of the Temple of His Body, and the very fact Jesus, while on earth was corruptible, capable of dying and has died, thus showing you that he was like us of mankind, who was indeed born a Jew into the Law (Galatians 4:4).

To me it most certainly does, by means of Jesus saying He Himself would raise Himself. You do have to admit that this IS what Jesus said He would do. 

We can go off on another tanget about the temple and His body, but we'll leave that for a different thread.

5 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

for John 1:3, it is also best to carefully consider John 1:5, the Light shines in the darkness, it is obviously apparent that these words are referring to the ministry of Jesus  as seen in John 3:19-21, 8:12, 9:5 and 12:35-36, granted the very first chapter of John is John's Introductory. Moving into verse 4, we also read that life was in the Word and that life was the Light of men. It should be taken into consideration here that John is not referring to the Genesis act of creation at this point. The true Light which enlightens every man was presently coming into the world (John 1:9). The last part of verse 3, in connection with verse 4 indicates that life and light came into existence by means of the Word. (Colossians 1:15, 16).


With this information in view, it is obviously apparent that John 1:3 is not referring to the Genesis act of creation but to all the things that came to be through the proclamation of the Word, through the ministry of Jesus. For this reason, Jesus cried, It is finished (it has been accomplished) later down the road when he was killed by means of Crucifixion; just as we find God was finished all His works in the Genesis act of creation, the same regarding the one sent by means of Shaliach Principle. Jesus' ministry was the beginning of the new creation of God, whereas our risen Lord, Christ Jesus, is the first of the firstfruits of that new creation (as well as the one Firstborn out of death), the beginning of the creation of God, mainly when it can be understood what the new earth and new heavens entails regarding said new creation.

You are making it waaay more difficult then necessary. It reminds me of how the Jews back in that time had rules upon rules that they developed based on their extensive knowledge of the Law. When Jesus came, He made it very simple and said so in Matt 22:36-40. This destroyed the whole list of laws the jews had created. I feel that you are using the duality of scripture (where a verse has more than one meaning and application) to dismiss what is being said. To me it is crystal clear that Jesus created everything that has ever been created. That is what John 1:3 says. It looks as though we are never going to get around this because it makes it too hard for you to accept what is exactly written, and this is because it does not fit your view point. I get it. Instead it has to be assumed that John meant something else because by John stating that Jesus created all things it makes Him God, and we just can't have that. Nevermind that Jesus is to be worshiped and Honored just as the Father (Revelation 4:9-11 and 5:11-14). 

5 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

Indeed, but the Temple in question is His Body, the Body of our Lord, Christ Jesus, in turn the Father's Temple due to the very fact God does his Purpose and Will through his Son. That temple of which they were thinking about was The Temple of Herod.

I agree, but don't even get started on "His body", because jws do not believe He was resurrected in the same body. Thus making Jesus a liar. 

5 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

Yes, the Holy Spirit is mention in both verses, but you have one instance regarding the Christ regarding him being risen on the 3rd day and the other regarding those who are ministers. Because the Holy Spirit is mention in both instances, does not equate the two into being the same event, despite Holy Spirit being one of 90 or so occurrences in various instances in the Greek New Testament.


I NEVER said it was the same event. 

5 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

If so why state Jesus raised himself when the Bible itself has made it clear he had expired?

Because that is what Jesus said HE would do. 

5 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

You sure? Can you show me Acts 13:2 references regarding John 2:19? Regarding my response to you is as followed: [Acts 13:2 focuses on such ones ministering for God. The references for this verse points to Ac 9:15 and 1 Timothy 2:7, even while outlined nothing points back in references to Jesus being risen from the tomb....], I do not see Acts 13:2 pointing back to John 2:19 - anywhere, even while outlined.

    • Hello guest!
    • Hello guest!
    • Hello guest!

The only verses Acts 13:2 cross-references to and points back to even in outline form is
Deuteronomy 10:8, 1 Samuel 2:11, Daniel 9:3, Matthew 9:38, Luke 2:37, 1 Timothy 2:7 (as mentioned), 2 Timothy 1:11, Acts 8:29, 9:15 (as mentioned), 22:21, 14:26, Romans 1:1, 1 Corinthians 12:11, Galatians 1:15, 2:8-9, Ephesians 3:7, Hebrews 5:4, etc and dozens more, including the ones above amounting to a total of 41 verses (with 1 Chronicles 16:37-43 bringing the count up by 47 verses).


That being said, even regarding Acts 13:2, both John 2:19 and Romans 18:11, is nowhere to be found, even in cross-references without outline in the Bible itself does not say and it only points back to the 2 verses already mentioned, granted that both instances were and are entirely different, despite the Spirit of God being mentioned in both instances.

And the bible informs us the Christ had expired and God had a hand in his resurrection.

yes I am sure, because that is what John 2:19 says. 

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3 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

We can agree if you can agree in the context in which it is intended. Not as a creator or co-creator, but someone who shared in God’s creative work.

If we meet your understanding, once again we would have to nullify scripture to accept that interpretation. Moses would have made no sense, Genesis 1:2 and the psalmist would be mistaken, Psalms 33:6, Psalms 36:9

When the Pharisees went to test Jesus for the grounds of divorce, what was Jesus reply, Matthew 19:4-6 Jesus used the phrase, “created them” why would Jesus need to speak to the Pharisees as a third person. Under the Trinity, it becomes confusing. We know God is not a God of confusion, then why oppose God’s words. This ideologically is adding to scripture, which God forbids.

How can Trinity under these circumstances be of sound judgment? We can agree that God used Michael as an instrument to continue his creation.

All scriptures mentioned, attest to that fact. That Jesus shared in Gods creative work, and God used Jesus as an instrument for that creation.

there is no nullification anywhere, John 1:3 states clearly that Jesus created everything that has been created. This does not make any scripture mistaken, only the interpretation made by some. 

The confusion is there because those who are so opposed to the idea that God can do anything and be everywhere. There is a common mistake that people have in regards to the trinity, they only have heard a slight idea of it but profess to know it has to be wrong. 

Michael? hardly. Michael is and was and will for ever be Michael, not Jesus nor the Son of God. This notion of Michael being Jesus is not found within scripture, it is made up by men. If you'd like, start another thread on this topic and I'll discuss it. 

I have no problem with Jesus sharing in the creation work, or having been used and an instrument. John 1:3 makes it clear that He did create everything that has ever been created. So it fits. 

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21 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

Of course the verse tells us what He meant by the temple, at this time we're not talking about the temple, we're talking about who was going to raise it. The verse says Jesus. This particular point is one of a few that I base my belief on . If Jesus said He would raise Himself, He is either a liar, or it is true.  We know that Jesus is not a liar, so it HAS to be true. The verse quotes Jesus saying that He would raise Himself. This, coupled with the other verses that state God would raise Him, leaves a tough position for those who claim that Jesus isn't God because of the direct parallel between who raises Jesus. There is no denying that Jesus said He would raise Himself in 3 days according to John. 

I've already made mention to what the Temple actually is, granted that verse 21 tells us he was speaking about the temple of his body. For he was in noway talking about the Temple of Herod and the Jews themselves did not understand what he was talking about. Regarding the body of the Christ, that is God's Temple for the very fact God dwells in the Christ as he does with the early Christians.

I understand that but are trying to profess that Jesus somehow raised himself from the dead when it was by God's hand that Jesus was raised, resurrected, the firstborn from the dead. But the thing is, the dead cannot raise themselves and Jesus was not capable of taking himself out of the pangs of Death (Hebrews 5:7) John 2:19 only states that Jesus said to the people Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. Plus to speak of someone dead who can somehow raise himself. the verse is in regards to Jesus verbally saying speaking about the Temple of his Body, if he is quoting something it would point a foretelling of him [The Messiah] being a cornerstone (Psalms 118:22, Isaiah 28:16, 17 and once again we see Acts 4:10, 11).

No one is denying what Jesus is saying, the truth of the matter is one is merely taking in the context of this passage as a whole, not a sole verse, for if we are to take one verse and one verse only, we ignore the passage as a whole in of itself, something that anyone who professes hermeneutics would never do. Furthermore, it would contradict anything else that connects with this passage if we ignore them, the very reason why cross-references should be taken into consideration.

22 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

I think you may have an idea of what the trinity is, but lack understanding of how it works. By saying Jesus raised Himself it does not reject the idea that the Father raised Him, nor the Holy Spirit. There are verses which we have quoted each other in this thread that testify to all three being attributed to raising Jesus. Since the scriptures cannot be contradictory then there has to be an explanation and all of those verses have to be true. 

I know the Christology of Trinitarians, granted I had dealt with them many times before, among them being James White followers or that of the KJV-Onlyist crow or the FLDS and so forth. Trinitarians believe that the Father is God, that Jesus is God and the Holy Spirit is God, thus making up the Triune God, after all, you yourself stated each to be God thus making up the Triune itself of the Godhead. granted, the Godhead as one God in three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit making up this Triune God. Furthermore, this is seen as some centralized mystery in the Trinity Doctrine.

But if that was the case, you just stated that Jesus raised himself, for if Jesus indeed raise himself, the dead rising themselves out of death, how would you explain the involvement of the Father or God using His Spirit to raise Jesus if the claim is already posed of Jesus somehow raising himself out of the pangs of death?

It can be seen as a contradiction for if let's say for example I did agree with you, Jesus raised himself from the Dead, in this sense, I'd have to totally ignore the whole passage and it's references and accept this verse without merit, it would put me in contradiction to the very true fact that Jesus was able to do nothing from himself and be a list of other things and it would counter fact cross-references and testimonies made in Scripture. And quite frankly, I want to take all Scripture into consideration, as with the parallel to this case regarding the Mark of Jonah and surely Jonah wasn't able to bring himself out of the big fish by his own hand.

22 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

and yet, many many scriptures are quoting the OT about YHWH and attributes those same qualities or actions to Jesus. 

So if that was the case why was it that Jesus cursed a fig tree or not have known a ill woman had touched her?

More importantly why was Jesus corruptible, thus making him susceptible to death whereas the Hebrew Old Testament tells you God himself cannot die and is incorruptible, even brought up in the Greek New Testament?

God cannot die, as the bible even tells you. Jesus could because unlike YHWH, Jesus was under Shaliach Principle, came to earth as a man by means of a woman named Mary, therefore he was able to taste death, even expire only to be resurrected and made incorruptible.

23 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

To me it most certainly does, by means of Jesus saying He Himself would raise Himself. You do have to admit that this IS what Jesus said He would do. 

We can go off on another tanget about the temple and His body, but we'll leave that for a different thread.

But did you not just say the following: By saying Jesus raised Himself it does not reject the idea that the Father raised Him, nor the Holy Spirit.

And

On 11/5/2018 at 3:03 PM, Shiwiii said:

To me, the evidence shows me that yes, Jesus IS God as well as the Father is God and the Holy Spirit is God.

If Jesus and only He, had raised himself from the dead, there would be no mention of God or the Holy Spirit, but only by Jesus' own hand and if HE will do this as you said, why bring up the Father or the Holy Spirit if the concept of the Triune God is not at work according to the Trinity? After all, you said the Father is God, Jesus is God and the Holy Spirit is God, so surely all 3 persons would take part in the Resurrection and not Christ Jesus alone.

We are not going off in a tangent because regarding the Temple of his Body it is of the passage itself - that is if you take into account the whole passage or one verse.

The expression Jesus is God'is not same as Jesus as God as in an example, Jesus is worshiped as God. So which is it then granted you follow this that is factual true about Trinitarians regarding John 2:19:

Trinitarians interpret the text to mean Jesus raised himself from the dead and somehow suppose this means he must be God who raised himself from the dead.

23 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

You are making it waaay more difficult then necessary. It reminds me of how the Jews back in that time had rules upon rules that they developed based on their extensive knowledge of the Law. When Jesus came, He made it very simple and said so in Matt 22:36-40. This destroyed the whole list of laws the jews had created. I feel that you are using the duality of scripture (where a verse has more than one meaning and application) to dismiss what is being said. To me it is crystal clear that Jesus created everything that has ever been created. That is what John 1:3 says. It looks as though we are never going to get around this because it makes it too hard for you to accept what is exactly written, and this is because it does not fit your view point. I get it. Instead it has to be assumed that John meant something else because by John stating that Jesus created all things it makes Him God, and we just can't have that. Nevermind that Jesus is to be worshiped and Honored just as the Father (Revelation 4:9-11 and 5:11-14). 

Not really, I am being simplistic.

  • Matthew 22:36-40 - [36] “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” [37] And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. [38] This is the great and first commandment. [39] And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. [40] On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.”

I am glad you made mention of this verse because here we see Jesus affirming the Shema, which is to be heard by God to affirm that the one who professes the Shema Law HAS a God. And we know that Jesus, as with Paul, affirmed Shema and as others have also even in testimony.

It does not destroy the list of the laws granted that Jesus is the mediator between God and the men he made the Covenant with as seen in 1 Timothy 2:5. We are of Spiritual Israel and the Law still hangs on in the New Covenant.

Clearly if you are serving God, you are in application to that Law and I totally agree with Jesus.

As far as I am concern, Trinitarians are not that open about the Shema nor do they accept it as much.

1 Corinthians 8:6 is Paul affirmation of the Shea Law so clearly anything of Spiritual Israel still remains.

And no I am not using duality of Scripture just basic Hermeneutics.

Now your next problem is if you attest that Jesus is God and raised himself, why did you bring up the Shema Law when that is against your view of Jesus being YHWH when it is known God cannot profess Shema, he was the one who created it and Jesus obverse and applied the Shema since he was a child? When I discuss with Cos about this in a debate of some sort, you were briefly there when I said this.

And no, it isn't that hard, I understand John 1:3 clearly, as with Paul making mention of this, and John 1:3 does not prove Jesus is God granted and it ads on to what the New Creation entails about the very man God made superior to the angels in Hebrews.

Proskuneo can man many things but Jesus was never religious worshiped. If we are to say he was worshiped, what of Lot tot he Angels? Abraham to the Hittites, surely the latter isn't God yet worship and homage was done - it does not equate to religious worship. That being said an act of worship and or homage does not make that God, and those who religious worship and give self sacrifice to God know of whom they truly render worship and servitude to.

In your case, you have 3 Gods which make up a Triune God, of whom you render religious worship to?

23 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

I agree, but don't even get started on "His body", because jws do not believe He was resurrected in the same body. Thus making Jesus a liar. 

Granted that when the disciples saw Jesus he was like a Spirit, having a Spirit Body if you will. And no the bible even tells you of his Spirit Body and the fact Paul spoken of him as if he was an angel -malak.

So Paul is the lair or perhaps Luke?

Furthermore, As a Spirit, Jesus was able to appear/disappear suddenly instantly as seen in Luke 24:31 and John 20:19, 26 and he was not recognized y those who followed him until he spoke with them and made it known as seen in Luke 24:30, 31, 35 and John 20:14-16, 21:6, 7 - and I am sure we were, as seen here, agree with the gospel of John.

23 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

I NEVER said it was the same event. 

So according to you how does John 2:19 and Romans 8:11 to the other instance of the Holy Spirit in use?

I even told you the verses to do not cross-references at all with Acts 13:2. So the first 2 verses in question correlates with Acts 13:2 why state this if that isn't the case at all even with evidence against that? I do not see the connection.

However, it would have made sense if you said Acts 13 verse 26 and onward (26-52) but that would granted both John 2:19 and Romans 8:11 not only correlates, but harmonizes with the passage as a whole.

On 11/6/2018 at 3:43 PM, Shiwiii said:

Because that is what Jesus said HE would do. 

So you agree with that Triune God statement of which I posed before, right? If that is the case.

On 11/6/2018 at 3:43 PM, Shiwiii said:

yes I am sure, because that is what John 2:19 says. 

But the Scriptural evidence says otherwise and John 2:19 and Romans 8:11 has no connection to Acts 13:2 whatsoever, therefore the Spirit of God is in play in both verses and passages, but clearly both events are not same, moreover, if we one cannot take the passage in full and solely a single verse than another, why say otherwise of the actual cross-references in your own Bible?

Clearly both John 2:19 and Romans 8:11 are in connection with each other and it does correlates to the passage itself as we can see and read with our very eyes of both these verses.

  • John 2:19 - Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”
  • Romans 8:11 - If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus[a] from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.

Acts 13:2 does not make any claim to what is mention about, ironically enough, the very outline regarding this passage even tells you Acts chapter 13, especially 1-14 regarding Paul’s First Missionary Tour for it records the journey of Paul and Barnabas to Cyprus and to Pisidia.

  • Acts 13:2 - While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, “Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.”

We do not see anything in Acts 13:2 about Jesus being raised out of a tomb here, let alone raising himself, therefore the cross-references are proven true and what was mentioned before is unfounded, for even the evidence amounts to that in regards to what I linked to you - that is - if you checked it, if not, if your Bible contains footnotes and cross-references, it will tell you, i.e. the NIV Bible.

So if you are sure of what you are saying I will pose the question again:

Can you show me Acts 13:2 references regarding John 2:19?

On 11/6/2018 at 3:51 PM, Shiwiii said:

there is no nullification anywhere, John 1:3 states clearly that Jesus created everything that has been created. This does not make any scripture mistaken, only the interpretation made by some. 

So if I were to say do you agree with Peter, John, Paul's testimony of who the True God is, after all you posted Matthew 22:36-40 thus we see Jesus affirming Shema, which in this sense if you understand the Law of the Jews is affirming that the one who profess Shema has a God.

Clearly in the Scriptures it is silly to say and or even fathom that God has a God.

You also will fall into a mistake if you go just the next verse or two over regarding the Light of this World, moreover, other John's (John the Baptist) Testimony of the Christ.

God isn't a mystery, nor is the Christ granted what Paul conveyed in Ephesians of what has been revealed.

On 11/6/2018 at 3:51 PM, Shiwiii said:

The confusion is there because those who are so opposed to the idea that God can do anything and be everywhere. There is a common mistake that people have in regards to the trinity, they only have heard a slight idea of it but profess to know it has to be wrong. 

But the thing is, there are those who understand and can see for themselves an exegesis that does not match up with Scripture, i.e. if a persons accepts a single verse and say Moses is God, clearly that person isn't understanding and or taking into account of the passage and and sticks to a single verse. Basic Biblical Hermeneutics can even tell you that this isn't the case and can even point out to the Law of the Jews of which both God professed in Psalms, to what Jesus said in the Gospel of John and to what Paul had said in the First Epistle to Corinthians.

On 11/6/2018 at 3:51 PM, Shiwiii said:

Michael? hardly. Michael is and was and will for ever be Michael, not Jesus nor the Son of God. This notion of Michael being Jesus is not found within scripture, it is made up by men. If you'd like, start another thread on this topic and I'll discuss it. 

But then you have some evidence of Suborintaionist who believed Jesus is Michael the Archangel. Granted only a superior of God fought and battle with Satan and his demons in Heaven, therefore if you are making the claim it is a man doctrine you have to back it up. What can be said the belief to some degree predates the Trinity - granted early Christians were Subornationist, just as the early Church was, the very church Jesus built 2,000 years ago.

So you have to ask yourself, who was it really among God's Son who fought Satan the Devil and His Demons? Who was it that will defeat the Dragon and have the backing of God's Army behind him?

After all, Jesus did say he can call unto God anytime for high ranking angels to his side, to rally, to flank, to command, to defend and support him.

We can discuss this on another thread with this one but I believe at some point I did discuss this with someone.

On 11/6/2018 at 3:51 PM, Shiwiii said:

I have no problem with Jesus sharing in the creation work, or having been used and an instrument. John 1:3 makes it clear that He did create everything that has ever been created. So it fits. 

All things were made through Jesus.

God the Father takes delight in the Son; The Son rejoices over the works and marvels of the Father's hands.

It may fit perfectly to you, but the cross-references and what that Light is pretty much counters that.

 

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6 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

I've already made mention to what the Temple actually is, granted that verse 21 tells us he was speaking about the temple of his body. For he was in noway talking about the Temple of Herod and the Jews themselves did not understand what he was talking about. Regarding the body of the Christ, that is God's Temple for the very fact God dwells in the Christ as he does with the early Christians.

why even mention this again? We are in agreement. Jesus spoke of His body, His physical body. 

 

7 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

John 2:19 only states that Jesus said to the people Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

So either Jesus did it or He did not, you are claiming He did not. That is what you have been saying all along. Ok, no problem. I see that you as well as others here do not take this scripture to mean what Jesus said, but instead somehow claim He didn't really mean it by means of another verse that states God did. So then what you are saying is Jesus is a liar. I don't mean to put it so harshly, but it IS what you are saying. 

 

11 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

I know the Christology of Trinitarians, granted I had dealt with them many times before, among them being James White followers or that of the KJV-Onlyist crow or the FLDS and so forth. Trinitarians believe that the Father is God, that Jesus is God and the Holy Spirit is God, thus making up the Triune God, after all, you yourself stated each to be God thus making up the Triune itself of the Godhead. granted, the Godhead as one God in three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit making up this Triune God. Furthermore, this is seen as some centralized mystery in the Trinity Doctrine.

But if that was the case, you just stated that Jesus raised himself, for if Jesus indeed raise himself, the dead rising themselves out of death, how would you explain the involvement of the Father or God using His Spirit to raise Jesus if the claim is already posed of Jesus somehow raising himself out of the pangs of death?

It can be seen as a contradiction for if let's say for example I did agree with you, Jesus raised himself from the Dead, in this sense, I'd have to totally ignore the whole passage and it's references and accept this verse without merit, it would put me in contradiction to the very true fact that Jesus was able to do nothing from himself and be a list of other things and it would counter fact cross-references and testimonies made in Scripture. And quite frankly, I want to take all Scripture into consideration, as with the parallel to this case regarding the Mark of Jonah and surely Jonah wasn't able to bring himself out of the big fish by his own hand.

If you have this grasp, then why did you make such comments about the Father not being the "triune God" etc. That is interjecting a fourth being from the context of your argument you posted earlier.

You are attributing Jonah and Jesus now? Really? Do you not believe that Jesus can/could do things mere mortal could not? Sure He placed limitation upon Himself when taking for form of man (Phil 2:7), but that didn't mean He couldn't use His power for whatever He wanted (John 2:7-11). 

irregardless, this is just one instance we are discussing, this John 2:19. It does clearly state Jesus said He would raise Himself. You really can't ignore that without some sort of bias. We can gladly choose other verses to discuss and why I believe that Jesus IS God, but we just happen to be on this one. So with that being said, sure lets take all of scripture and continue. 

20 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

So if that was the case why was it that Jesus cursed a fig tree or not have known a ill woman had touched her?

More importantly why was Jesus corruptible, thus making him susceptible to death whereas the Hebrew Old Testament tells you God himself cannot die and is incorruptible, even brought up in the Greek New Testament?

God cannot die, as the bible even tells you. Jesus could because unlike YHWH, Jesus was under Shaliach Principle, came to earth as a man by means of a woman named Mary, therefore he was able to taste death, even expire only to be resurrected and made incorruptible.

Again, Jesus allowed restrictions upon Himself while a man.  Of course God cannot die, thus the very reason why Jesus was subjected to become a man, to show us how we are suppose to act/be obedient to God and live according to Gods purpose AND so we can know that death is not the end. Our bodies die/decay, but our spirit belongs to God and will live after our bodies are dust again. God does not cease if Jesus, as a man dies, because our spirit as well as God's Spirit lives on no matter what. 

Jesus is very much YHWH.

29 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

But did you not just say the following: By saying Jesus raised Himself it does not reject the idea that the Father raised Him, nor the Holy Spirit.

And

On 11/5/2018 at 12:03 PM, Shiwiii said:

To me, the evidence shows me that yes, Jesus IS God as well as the Father is God and the Holy Spirit is God.

If Jesus and only He, had raised himself from the dead, there would be no mention of God or the Holy Spirit, but only by Jesus' own hand and if HE will do this as you said, why bring up the Father or the Holy Spirit if the concept of the Triune God is not at work according to the Trinity? After all, you said the Father is God, Jesus is God and the Holy Spirit is God, so surely all 3 persons would take part in the Resurrection and not Christ Jesus alone.

We are not going off in a tangent because regarding the Temple of his Body it is of the passage itself - that is if you take into account the whole passage or one verse.

Who said that Jesus and ONLY He raised Himself? No one, and certainly not me. I would be making God a liar by making such a statement based on the very scriptures you brought up. 

 

31 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

so surely all 3 persons would take part in the Resurrection and not Christ Jesus alone.

yes

 

32 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

I am glad you made mention of this verse because here we see Jesus affirming the Shema, which is to be heard by God to affirm that the one who professes the Shema Law HAS a God. And we know that Jesus, as with Paul, affirmed Shema and as others have also even in testimony.

It does not destroy the list of the laws granted that Jesus is the mediator between God and the men he made the Covenant with as seen in 1 Timothy 2:5. We are of Spiritual Israel and the Law still hangs on in the New Covenant.

Clearly if you are serving God, you are in application to that Law and I totally agree with Jesus.

No it does not destroy the law, you are correct, but it does destroy the laws that the Jews enacted that were above the law (John 15:25).  That was all I was saying. The law stands and will stand just as Jesus said it would  (Matt 5:17)

41 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

Proskuneo can man many things but Jesus was never religious worshiped. If we are to say he was worshiped, what of Lot tot he Angels? Abraham to the Hittites, surely the latter isn't God yet worship and homage was done - it does not equate to religious worship. That being said an act of worship and or homage does not make that God, and those who religious worship and give self sacrifice to God know of whom they truly render worship and servitude to.

I gave you examples of angles/the living creatures of Revelation worshiping Jesus just as God the Father. You're trying to divert what I said to mean honor given to Abraham etc. Not the same and you know it. 

 

44 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

Granted that when the disciples saw Jesus he was like a Spirit, having a Spirit Body if you will. And no the bible even tells you of his Spirit Body and the fact Paul spoken of him as if he was an angel -malak.

So Paul is the lair or perhaps Luke?

Furthermore, As a Spirit, Jesus was able to appear/disappear suddenly instantly as seen in Luke 24:31 and John 20:19, 26 and he was not recognized y those who followed him until he spoke with them and made it known as seen in Luke 24:30, 31, 35 and John 20:14-16, 21:6, 7 - and I am sure we were, as seen here, agree with the gospel of John.

Jesus said Himself :

Luke 24:" 38 And He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts? 39 See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.”

Jesus spoke this AFTER He was resurrected. So is Jesus a liar? 

57 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

So if I were to say do you agree with Peter, John, Paul's testimony of who the True God is, after all you posted Matthew 22:36-40 thus we see Jesus affirming Shema, which in this sense if you understand the Law of the Jews is affirming that the one who profess Shema has a God.

Clearly in the Scriptures it is silly to say and or even fathom that God has a God.

You also will fall into a mistake if you go just the next verse or two over regarding the Light of this World, moreover, other John's (John the Baptist) Testimony of the Christ.

God isn't a mystery, nor is the Christ granted what Paul conveyed in Ephesians of what has been revealed.

So what you are saying is that when Jesus was here on the Earth, He was only a man? That's fair if that is your belief, however it is not mine. I believe He had a dual nature at that point both God and man. The man had a God and this was to be an example for us. 

1 Tim 3:16 says that godliness is a mystery. 

1 hour ago, Space Merchant said:

therefore if you are making the claim it is a man doctrine you have to back it up.

actually no, those who claim such must provide proof. Until then it is an opinion based on no scriptural support and thus man made. 

1 hour ago, Space Merchant said:

All things were made through Jesus.

God the Father takes delight in the Son; The Son rejoices over the works and marvels of the Father's hands.

It may fit perfectly to you, but the cross-references and what that Light is pretty much counters that.

I can see here we are goign to keep going back and forth saying the same things about this verse (John2:19) regardless if it is cross referenced to Acts or not does not diminish the fact  that Jesus said it, you agreed He said it, you just don't believe He meant it the way He said it. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Lets move on about John 1:3, in particular not the verse John 1:3 but my supporting scriptures that back up that Jesus in fact did create everything and was not created and is God.

Who is speaking in Isaiah throughout and being recorded?  The Hebrew scriptures state it is YHWH, do you agree? 

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On 11/7/2018 at 7:00 PM, Shiwiii said:

why even mention this again? We are in agreement. Jesus spoke of His body, His physical body. 

I bring it up pertaining to your previous response and the fact I take the passage as a whole into account from what Jesus says to his resurrection, granted that I made it clear I am taking into consideration the passage as a whole whereas you are maintain to a sole verse from the passage - Resurrection of Jesus [The Christ].

Context means everything to those who take Biblical Hermeneutics with seriousness, as is always with any response I make regarding Scripture.

On 11/7/2018 at 7:00 PM, Shiwiii said:

So either Jesus did it or He did not, you are claiming He did not.

The thing here is regarding Jesus, we know what Jesus said in John 10:17-18, so we should be very aware that Jesus was clearly under Shaliach Principle here doing, saying things that is of not by means of his Will, but the Will of the one who sent him, granted, it says in Scripture that Jesus cannot do a single thing on his own, therefore, it can be pointed out that in John 2:19 Jesus predicted that he will rise again within 3 days and the fact he made it clear of whom he is going back to, of whom he will ascend to, moreover, the Temple of God is his Son of whom he dwells in and anyone who destroys his Temple, the Scripture says such one would be destroyed.

For as you mentioned Romans 8:11, which is a cross-references to John 2:19 (as seen by evidence already) tells you this and the fact that us corruptible men will be made alive through this way also in the same way also.

For if Jesus literally raised himself, as in, the dead raising the dead, it would conflict with the consistency of the passage as a whole when we are focused on a small portion in the passage regarding the Resurrection of the Christ. This is the same case with those who make claim that Moses is God also when if you take the passage as whole rather than 2 verses, you can see that Moses isn't anywhere near equal footing with and or like El Shaddai.

To make the claim that Jesus raised Himself from the dead as you take it literally as you said you will have to explain also how would a dead man can resurrect himself if not God or his Spirit there, or the Triune God.

And honestly, if I didn't take the Scriptures and what Jesus said, predicted, mind you, why on earth would I take into account the passage as a whole, let alone taking in the Hermeneutics of both the verse and passage? Previously you said before you cannot argue with the fact that God was the one to raise Jesus, you went on to say it is of your own personal belief that Jesus is YHWH - ok, but you later stated Jesus raised himself, thus having no argument in the fact God raised Jesus. Ironically enough when taking the passage in as a whole, it says otherwise and we can see that clearly.

To say Jesus is YHWH you have to agree with the doctrine that you follow that the Triune God raised Jesus, in addition you say Jesus is YHWH most likely attest to the fact that YHWH himself has died whereas the Bible says otherwise, and has conveyed God's incorruptibility.

No need, I can take harsh, but the thing is can you take Hermeneutics when it comes to the focus of Scripture as a whole rather than a snippet of passage. If that was the case, those who make claim to Moses also being God can be justified if that route was taken - he reality is if one takes into consideration the whole passage they can see that isn't the case, which in this sense is the same in regards to Jesus' resurrection and God's hand in the resurrection, after all, the Son cannot do a single thing on his own, the same one who affirmed Shema.

That being said, Jesus or anyone else isn't a lair in this sense when we know what Firstborn from the Dead as well as Jesus being the cornerstone entails, even on Isaiah’s part.

Lastly, I think you might want to re-read my quote again, I will highlight that snippet of which you pulled granted you made no comment in other details of that passage, regarding John 2:19:

I understand that but are trying to profess that Jesus somehow raised himself from the dead when it was by God's hand that Jesus was raised, resurrected, the firstborn from the dead. But the thing is, the dead cannot raise themselves and Jesus was not capable of taking himself out of the pangs of Death (Hebrews 5:7John 2:19 only states that Jesus said to the people Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. Plus to speak of someone dead who can somehow raise himself. the verse is in regards to Jesus verbally saying speaking about the Temple of his Body, if he is quoting something it would point a foretelling of him [The Messiah] being a cornerstone (Psalms 118:22, Isaiah 28:16, 17 and once again we see Acts 4:10, 11)

On 11/7/2018 at 7:00 PM, Shiwiii said:

If you have this grasp, then why did you make such comments about the Father not being the "triune God" etc. That is interjecting a fourth being from the context of your argument you posted earlier.

Because it is true that Trinitarians believe all 3, in this case, all 3 Gods make up 1 God, thus making them Triune, at the same time they do not believe such because of the whole aspect of distinct persons, therefore when it comes to the verse in question Jesus was not of the Triune God, especially if someone were to accept the claim that Jesus raised himself. To insist that Jesus raised himself from the dead is also to say it was not the Triune God who raised Jesus since Jesus is not the Triune being and the Triune being is not Jesus granted he is distinct in this sense since the focus is on 1 verse, Jesus was clearly unable to do such on his own, in this sense. You stated yourself, Jesus raised himself - ok, however on my part, according to what I am reading of the entire passage regarding the resurrection of the Christ, only stated what is of the Scriptures in full - that God was the one responsible for raising Jesus and I believe that Jesus is Lord and I believe in the one who resurrected him, as is said in Romans.

And regarding the 4 identities this is in fact true regarding Trinitarians speaking of verses like this one and we see the contradiction there.

You would think of it as interjecting but this is indeed the case with Trinitarians in regards to their belief, and we have not gotten into the other things yet, some of which I had already spoken of on occasion here.

On 11/7/2018 at 7:00 PM, Shiwiii said:

You are attributing Jonah and Jesus now? Really?

This is where you fail to see the very reason as to why the very small and yet brief mention of Jonah the Prophet. I had alluded to Jonah for a simple reason really and it is clear to me with that minor mention you didn’t get what I was pointing to – let’s hear it from the Christ himself in Scripture so you will understand and know (since this is included with the passage of Jesus Resurrection), granted I am taking the passage as a whole into consideration and what he had said regarding himself and of Jonah, granted that John 2:19, the verse of focus, references to passage in Matthew chapters 12, 27 and 28.

Here, we are aware that regardless of all these wonderful works hat our Christ and our Lord, Jesus, is doing, the scribes as with the Pharisees demanded more as if they were still not convinced, regardless if they saw him in action or not some heard from others who were witnesses of these works, they called to Jesus and profess they wanted to see a sign from him. In response, Jesus tells the scribes and the Pharisees that a wicked and adulterous people of this generation who keeps on seeking a sign, but no sign will be given it except the sign of Jonah the Prophet. As it states below in Scripture:

  • Matthew 12:38, 39 - The Sign [Mark] of Jonah - [38] Then some of the scribes and Pharisees answered him, saying, “Teacher, we wish to see a sign from you.” [39] But he answered them, “An evil and adulterous generation seeks for a sign, but no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.

It continues into verse 40 and reads:

  • [40] For just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

In the Gospel of John, we know of Jesus' miracles and the fact the miracles done by him are spoken of as signs and we already know the Father does the Works through the Son – according to Jesus. We also already know the distinction, we know of Jonah's story and how it is identical in this sense to the Son of Man - Jesus Christ.

Which brings us to the next thing of which Jesus had said and they did not comprehend - that is, what he had stated in verse 40 (Matthew 12:40)

Now, in the history of Prophet Jonah he was tasked by God to go to Nineveh to give the message, as prophets and prophetesses are suppose to do, long story short, he ended up being swallowed alive, whole, by a huge fish right after being thrown overboard; down into the depths of Sheol he was taken, if you will, or as written.

  • Jonah 1:7 - Jonah Is Thrown into the Sea - And they said to one another, “Come, let us cast lots, that we may know on whose account this evil has come upon us.” So they cast lots, and the lot fell on Jonah.

Like Jesus had said, 3 days, 3 nights which was the case with Jonah, but then he emerged from the great fish after that time which to some it is like a resurrection. For, Christ Jesus foretells of such about he himself, who will die and on the 3rd day raised. Those same leaders were persistent with Jesus had rejected the sign of Jonah the Prophet, and remain in their own calamity, refusing to change from their bad ways, let alone show and or make the effort for repentance.

In Jonah's actions and heeding God’s message enabled the people of Nineveh to change and they did repent after Jonah gave Word of God's message to them, condemning this generation of wicked men and adulterers and evil.

This brings to the next point regarding the passage,

  • Matthew 27:63-66 - [63] and said, “Sir, we remember how that impostor said, while he was still alive, ‘After three days I will rise.’ [64] Therefore order the tomb to be made secure until the third day, lest his disciples go and steal him away and tell the people, ‘He has risen from the dead,’ and the last fraud will be worse than the first.” [65] Pilate said to them, “You have a guard of soldiers. Go, make it as secure as you can.” [66] So they went and made the tomb secure by sealing the stone and setting a guard.
  • Matthew 28:12-15 - [12] And when they had assembled with the elders and taken counsel, they gave a sufficient sum of money to the soldiers [13] and said, “Tell people, ‘His disciples came by night and stole him away while we were asleep.’ [14] And if this comes to the governor's ears, we will satisfy him and keep you out of trouble.” [15] So they took the money and did as they were directed. And this story has been spread among the Jews to this day.

That being said, the sign of Jonah would turn out to be the biggest and most miraculous miracle of them all. Jesus’ resurrection from the dead, thus proving to that Jesus was Israel’s Messiah who has come.

On 11/7/2018 at 7:00 PM, Shiwiii said:

Do you not believe that Jesus can/could do things mere mortal could not?

Jesus was born a man out of a woman. Pretty sure I mention this as with Jesus being corruptible, as is with all men of mankind i.e. susceptible to death, a need to eat/drink, etc.

As far as I am concern no corruptible man who has perish can still do this as with other corruptible men. As Jesus, likewise, God will do the same for us, as it even points that out in Romans 8:11. Therefore the belief in the Resurrection is important.

On 11/7/2018 at 7:00 PM, Shiwiii said:

Sure He placed limitation upon Himself when taking for form of man (Phil 2:7), but that didn't mean He couldn't use His power for whatever He wanted (John 2:7-11). 

So what is your point in this regard?

Jesus never took plunder of being equal with God and the other passage was regarding a wedding of which Jesus was invited to with those of his circle. Mary told him the wine had ran short and to prevent the marriage couple of being put to shame, Jesus took action as well as gave order regarding water, which was also needed due to the customs of the Jewish regarding washing before meals, for water was needed for those in attendance. The early signs performed by Jesus are also addressed in that passage you linked, granted the full passage in of itself is John 2:1-12.

On 11/7/2018 at 7:00 PM, Shiwiii said:

irregardless, this is just one instance we are discussing, this John 2:19. It does clearly state Jesus said He would raise Himself. You really can't ignore that without some sort of bias.

I haven't ignored anything granted I took the passage as a whole into consideration regarding John 2:19, as is with the Resurrection of Jesus, and to make claim that Jesus raised himself, kind of defeats the purpose of him being the Firstborn of the Dead when that contexts in regards to the risen Christ. Moreover, I was quick to see that Acts 13:2 was not even in connection, even harmoniously with John 2:19 and Romans 8:11, so nothing is bring ignored here, expect the fact one is taking into account the passage as a whole while the other solidifies and focuses on a single verse, there's a difference here.

that being said, you are basing your personal view on a single verse and stated Jesus raised himself, therefore, if you do not take into account the passage, the Triune God was not here, but only Jesus, who is distinct, himself who raised out of death by his hand, as is with what was seen by your personal view vs. that of the Bible and or the Apostles.

On 11/7/2018 at 7:00 PM, Shiwiii said:

We can gladly choose other verses to discuss and why I believe that Jesus IS God, but we just happen to be on this one. So with that being said, sure lets take all of scripture and continue. 

We are still on this one, we are not going anywhere, for and if we have, we can go for Acts 13:2 because it’s connection to John 2:19 or Romans 8:11 remains to be unseen – even the evidence regarding references points to that.

So explain how Jesus raised himself when the context and the passage itself says otherwise? Clearly if you adhere to the Trinity doctrine you'd be aware that this isn't the case, thus making it a self-refuting claim, hence of whom you can choose and not choose who is God and not God when it comes to a specific passage that carters to you, you affirmed Jesus is God and according to the belief, Jesus is not the Father nor is he the Holy Spirit, granted he who is distinct and not of the other two, raised himself.

For the Trinity is the belief that the Father is God, Jesus is God and the Holy Spirit is God, but at the same time hence the Father is not God, the Son is not God and the Holy Spirit is not God, granted your doctrine speaks of distinct persons, yet somehow all amount to one God, but they all somehow make up the Triune Being when the time allows for it when it comes to discussion and or an explanation or common exegesis.

That being said, if you want to talk all Scripture, what of the passage in question of which such Scriptures are part of? We should be taking into account every verse affiliated with that passage, not just one or two, but rather - all of it.

That being said, what matters is what the Bible says and granted what we are to accept the very book that our God has had a hand in to enable us today to actually read and or have it in our own hands in our homes, etc.

On 11/7/2018 at 7:00 PM, Shiwiii said:

Again, Jesus allowed restrictions upon Himself while a man.

So how does that equate to a corruptible man being able to raise himself out of the pangs of death when he was held powerless by the earth? Surely if he was able to raise himself, there would not be a need for the Father or Holy Spirit, according to this response, let alone no Triune God at all if only Jesus himself raised himself.

On 11/7/2018 at 7:00 PM, Shiwiii said:

Of course God cannot die

But we already seen by response made by all of us that someone did die - Jesus. Granted you said Jesus is God, and that Jesus is YHWH, how was it he able to taste death when incorruptibility has never changed and God always had such? For it is common belief by Trinitarians that Jesus is God and man and they also will say he can choose to be at will, which isn't the case and Jesus does not act on his own Will, let alone speak according to the Bible, or in this case, according to John.

The Bible already tells you YHWH cannot die, is incorruptible, cannot succumb or even taste death in both the Old and New Testament, but then you have Jesus, who is according to you, is God, who was able to taste death, surely if he was God and man, death would not be something he would succumb to at all. And when someone is dead, they cannot do anything at all granted as to what the Bible says about the condition of the dead, and humans are not spirits so they do not go anywhere after death, in Jesus case, when he was resurrected was like that of a spirit, like that of an angel, according to Paul.

That being said, hopefully you are well aware that the Bible tells you God isn’t a man or a Son of Man, even going as far and to speak of his incorruptibly, as mentioned.

On 11/7/2018 at 7:00 PM, Shiwiii said:

thus the very reason why Jesus was subjected to become a man, to show us how we are suppose to act/be obedient to God and live according to Gods purpose AND so we can know that death is not the end. Our bodies die/decay, but our spirit belongs to God and will live after our bodies are dust again. God does not cease if Jesus, as a man dies, because our spirit as well as God's Spirit.

But God has sent Jesus in regards to Shaliach Principle, for any man who is under such is basically the one who speaks on behalf of God the Father and or his spokesman or mouthpiece if you will.

Regarding us as mortals, kind of defeats the purpose of you bringing up Romans 8:11 if this was the case, moreover, God will be restoring us to life, taking us also out of the pangs of death, so that we, like Jesus, can live again, and as those of the Spiritual House, we gain Eternal Life.

I’d also like to point out that Spirit Beings are different creations compared to humans. For humans are not spirit beings, and spirit beings are not human. We humans, granted we suffer due to Ancestral Sin from our first human mother and father, we succumb to death and sickness and when we die, we perish and everything with us, and we return to grave, buried in Sheol.

Not only God cannot die, God is not like us men (I agree with the Bible on this), he isn't a man nor a son of man, for Jesus himself said to the Samaritan Woman God is a Spirit and because of this we are to worship God in spirit and in truth (John 4:24). The other factor to your response is that God's Purpose and Will is not of Jesus at all for what he says and does is not of his own (which I made mention of earlier), hence the very reason he speaks God's Word, he is the flesh that speaks God's Word, for Jesus didn't come to do the Purpose and Will of his own, but of the one who sent, His God and Father in heaven, we cannot be ignoring Shaliach Principle here when it is clear that this is regarding Jesus and or anyone who speaks on behalf, even represent God.

If you say he allowed these restrictions then of whom was killed to begin with, you said Jesus is both God and man regarding dual nature, so which of it died and that day?

That being said, God cannot cease or taste death or succumb to what us men are hindered by. YHWH means to exist for a reason, and all of YHWH came into existence, granted even the Paul made this known.

Or as some would say, God had sent Jesus as a representative to show us how to be righteous.

On 11/7/2018 at 7:00 PM, Shiwiii said:

Jesus is very much YHWH.

So you agree, according to your personal belief, that YHWH died? How do you counteract with the fact that YHWH has always been incorruptible?

If that was the case, if one were to question and say, if Jesus is YHWH why would he profess Shema of affirming he has a God?

After all, God does not have anyone equal to and or above him according to this passage (Isaiah 40:12-31), moreover when Jesus was a child surely when he observed the Law, he would be aware that he was reading of himself, and yet this was not the case for in the Law not only young male Jews were circumcised on the 8th day in God's Temple, they had to observe the Law as well, as well as the Shema itself - even recite it, which is in practice by all who know of it stands for, to an extent, even Muslims know and profess the Shema too.

The other would be if Jesus is very much YHWH, as you said it yourself, who was his chosen one between both parties in regards to Spiritual Israel? For surely if Jesus was the Triune God, it would be understandable of those of the Spiritual House that make up Spiritual Israel, for I remember I spoken extensively on this before.

Lastly, how can you make the claim that Jesus is YHWH when Jesus is spoken of to be both the Firstborn from the Dead as well as being the First of the Firstfruits?

That being said, to call Jesus YHWH, you have to also remember that the Trinity Doctrine profess that the Son [Jesus] is not the Father, so take that into account also.

Other than that, It is best you begin to take consideration in all passages and not focus solely on a single verse, as an example was posed when I mention Moses.

On 11/7/2018 at 7:00 PM, Shiwiii said:

Who said that Jesus and ONLY He raised Himself? No one, and certainly not me. I would be making God a liar by making such a statement based on the very scriptures you brought up. 

The focus of Scripture in regards to that response was only John 2:19. You said several times that Jesus said himself, granted in the doctrine of the Trinity Jesus isn't the Father or the Holy Spirit due to the fact the very doctrine teaches that they are distinct from each other. Moreover, the core Trinitarian belief regarding this verse is that the claim that Jesus must be God because he said he will raise himself from the dead when the Bible tells us it was God who raised him, even tells you how he raised him and the very reason why Jesus is the Firstborn out of Death due to that fact.

Other than that,  did you or did you not just say several times that Jesus raised himself?

  • Right, Jesus said He would raise Himself up. Which He did. So here Jesus raised Himself.
  • Jesus said He would raise Himself and that is what happened.
  • well John 2:19 does. It clearly states who will raise the "temple of His body", Himself.

It isn't about God being made a lair or not, it is about an exegesis that becomes a contradiction.

Because if it was the other way around, you be aware of that list of verses I posted before, which is consistent and the cross-references do connect with each other in the Bible.

Granted, the belief in the Trinity is that the Son isn't the Father or the Holy Spirit thus not the Triune God.

On 11/7/2018 at 7:00 PM, Shiwiii said:

yes

Then your actual answer in previous response would have been that the Triune God resurrected a person of their own but due to the fact that this person is distinct to some who make the claim it is something entirely different, to some degree, granted your belief professes that The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit is God but not God when it comes to the distinction. Moreover, it and to more contradiction when Jesus does not take plunder of the Father who is God, hence what I have stated above.

So Jesus was not truly alone, it would defeat the very purpose of you saying Jesus raised himself, when you actually see what went on on the 3rd day that Jesus had been resurrected, which makes sense to the what Jesus said also in John 10:17-18.

So here you agree that all 3 took part in the resurrection but before was quite different, yet puts forth contradiction - himself would have been spoken of as the other Gods who had a role in the resurrection, but at the same time since they are distinct, they are not Triune, in this case, according to the doctrine, Jesus' isn't the Triune being.

On 11/7/2018 at 7:00 PM, Shiwiii said:

No it does not destroy the law, you are correct, but it does destroy the laws that the Jews enacted that were above the law (John 15:25).  That was all I was saying. The law stands and will stand just as Jesus said it would  (Matt 5:17)

And yet, to perhaps it may come as a surprise to you, the Shema Law is still intact in regards to Jesus' very own words in the verses in Matthew you posted, which is kind of ironic because the Trinity Doctrine do not see Jesus, who they claim to be God YHWH to have a God. You are aware of this Law of which Jesus observed since he was a child - correct? You also call on to Jesus as YHWH ,thus another contradiction when the Shema Law affirms who the God of Israel is - YHWH. If Jesus affirmed Shema in regards to YHWH who is the God of Israel as read in the Old Testament, how can you say he is YHWH when he himself affirmed to be heard, and acknowledges YHWH himself?

In this sense you have 2 YHWHs. A bit silly that you have one Yahweh or Jehovah calling on to another Yahweh or Jehovah.... It sounds a bit absurd.

Also John 15:25 is a quotation, for it is quoted from Psalms 35:19 and 69:4.

  • Psalm 35:19 - Let not those rejoice over me who are wrongfully my foes, and let not those wink the eye who hate me without cause.
  • Psalm 69:4 - More in number than the hairs of my head are those who hate me without cause; mighty are those who would destroy me, those who attack me with lies. What I did not steal must I now restore?

The Law is used in John 10:34 and 12:34. as with several other Scriptures, even mention by Paul.

On 11/7/2018 at 7:00 PM, Shiwiii said:

I gave you examples of angles/the living creatures of Revelation worshiping Jesus just as God the Father. You're trying to divert what I said to mean honor given to Abraham etc. Not the same and you know it. 

I can see that, in fact, you were briefly in that debate I was in some months ago to another Trinitarian (clearly one who has hatred for others even in a debate). You are correct because Jesus is a King and all is in subjection to him, but we clearly do not see any form of religious worship being robbed from the Father to the Son, reasons why such type of worship is for the True God (which was the case with both David and God in passage in the Old Testament and how the people reacted to both the King and God), as the Law of which Jesus professed even says.

Actually it is the same, even in regards to what is says and how it is used in Greek, I believe I said this to you before and the other guy. There is no difference for I spoke of this Greek word before, Proskuneo is to worship, to show honor, pay homage, bow to [down to], to show reverence, etc. I can go way more in-depth as I have several times already if you want.

To be honest, I never even seen your response, anywhere, regarding Abraham and the Hittites, so how is it I am diverting if you never made mention to it all? As far as I know, I brought him up in this regard, just as I have with Jonah. Moreover, why would I speak of honor being given to Abraham or attempt to divert when I am speaking about the Hittites whereas Abraham was the one who bowed down to them, or in this case, worshiped them? For this was in regards to Abraham trying to speak with the Hittites so he can be allowed to bury his dead, and he bowed down not, once, but twice. Eventually Abraham was able to agree on the terms given to him in order to bury his beloved.

That being said when Abraham rose and bowed down to the Hittites who are of the land he was in, surely he did not see them as God nor did he show religious servitude and utter self-sacrificing devotion. What of his beget son, Isaac? Isaac blessed Jacob to have all the nations on earth bow to worship him, it does not make Jacob God nor does Isaac see Jacob as God. Or perhaps the son of Jesse, King David bowing to a Temple, the list goes on.

There is no argument when it comes to worship (proskuneos) anyone or anything can be worshiped from a man to his belly, to the sky, to the sea, etc. but there is a clear distinction who is to be and who is not to be religious worshiped with high devotion, most importantly in regards to religious worship it is actually something if one goes off to religious serve and worship false gods and the like. The only one spoken of to receive such devoted worship is God the Father himself, no one else, after all, this Law does hang on the foremost commandments and Jesus himself made it clear, as both Matthew and Luke made it known in their gospel.

On 11/7/2018 at 7:00 PM, Shiwiii said:

Jesus said Himself :

Luke 24:" 38 And He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts? 39 See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.”

Glad you agreed with me - indeed, Jesus was like that of a Spirit and he had a Spiritualized Body granted to the amazement of the disciples who were on the road to Emmaus they were freighted and or startled, they did not recognize him but moments later overjoyed, happy even to see their Lord before them, the one who has risen.

[36] As they were talking about these things, Jesus himself stood among them, and said to them, “Peace to you!” 37 But they were startled and frightened and thought they saw a spirit.

On 11/7/2018 at 7:00 PM, Shiwiii said:

Jesus spoke this AFTER He was resurrected. So is Jesus a liar? 

How am I calling him a liar when I agreed with him? Indeed he had risen and indeed he was like that of a Spirit. After all, just like the dead cannot raise themselves, in regards to Jesus being resurrected by God, it can be said that because he was in this spirit state, he does not have flesh and he does not have bones.

I also agree with Paul on the fact that he spoke of Jesus, who had risen, as that of an angel; the question is, do you?

On 11/7/2018 at 7:00 PM, Shiwiii said:

So what you are saying is that when Jesus was here on the Earth, He was only a man? That's fair if that is your belief, however it is not mine.

Quite frankly - Yes. He was flesh, just as I am flesh, just as Billy is flesh, just as you are flesh. the Bible makes it clear. After all, we all agreed here that Jesus was corruptible, therefore he was just a man while on earth doing the Purpose and Will of the one who sent him, hence the signs and miracles and what he has said which is not of his own word, but of the one who sent him.

That being said, if that was the case, didn't you said he restricted/limited himself? So how is this any different if you do not mind me asking?

Other than that, I believe in the apostolic teachings, and the early Church shares that same view as well as him being a servant-son of the Most High.

On 11/7/2018 at 7:00 PM, Shiwiii said:

I believe He had a dual nature at that point both God and man. The man had a God and this was to be an example for us. 

But you just said he restricted himself. If now this is the case, how is one who is both God and man be susceptible to death, having the need to eat, at times being ignorant to that of even a fig tree or a woman touching his robe? Moreover, why would he profess a Law  that he holds true to since he was a child if he is God and man?

It would contradict the very fact that not only you say Jesus raised himself, but Jesus dying at all if he is both God and man with you thinking he has a dual nature? That is borderline the duality belief regarding Hypostatic Union or do you truly believe this coupled with the Trinity? I can tell you right now it isn’t too far from the dualism view regarding good and evil and regarding God.

Other than that, the Trinitarians do not believe Jesus have a God while at the same time they believe he has a God and is not God or Triune because he is not the Father or the Holy Spirit, as mentioned before, and remain with the idea that Jesus is God when they also agree God has no equal or anyone above him. Therefore it would defeat the very purpose of your belief. For, if God has a God, God gets baptized in front of God and a list of other things.

If I or someone random off the street had confronted you to ask, does God anoint God also with God? Such a thing would not make any sense and you can see how silly that sounds.

Well if he had a dual nature how he corruptible and incorruptible and yet still capable of succumbing to death?

On 11/7/2018 at 7:00 PM, Shiwiii said:

1 Tim 3:16 says that godliness is a mystery. 

God isn’t a mystery because in Ephesians that mystery was revealed. 1 Timothy 3:16 does speak about Jesus, but it does not refer to him as God whatsoever, for if anyone is aware, God does not need to be recognized by his own creations – angels.

On 11/7/2018 at 7:00 PM, Shiwiii said:

actually no, those who claim such must provide proof. Until then it is an opinion based on no scriptural support and thus man made. 

Before I even start, can you provide or shed any evidence that it is a man made doctrine?

And to add on to that, who is it, according to you who had fought Satan and his Demons?

Because saying something is one thing, backing up what is said is another, I already gave you a clue, it predates the Trinity Doctrine.

Just as we have the earliest copies of the manuscripts and understand the teachings of the early church, there is information on this belief to have originated centuries ago. So we should not be quick to say it is man-made if the very belief predates your own to some degree – think about that.

Also it may come as a shock to you, but even some Trinitarians, even scholars, believe Jesus is Michael the Archangel.

On 11/7/2018 at 7:00 PM, Shiwiii said:

I can see here we are goign to keep going back and forth saying the same things about this verse (John2:19) regardless if it is cross referenced to Acts or not does not diminish the fact  that Jesus said it, you agreed He said it, you just don't believe He meant it the way He said it. 

Well that can obvious be seen granted the focus is on the passage regarding the Resurrection of Jesus, in which John 2:19 is one of those verses. And no, not mention is the same thing back and forth because the context of the passage of the whole is being talked about, haven't even got to Isaiah yet.

Regardless? You have to take into account the passage, for if God's Word is to be profess, we should not be ignoring and or cherry picking Scripture to benefit a personal view that is in direct opposition of the Scripture.

That being said, so far Acts 13:2 has no connection to John 2:19 or Romans 8:11 whatsoever, thus making claim to the connection as unfounded.

Therefore we should be more focused on the passage as a whole, not a single verse in the passage; in turn we will not end up like the ones that truly believe Moses was a God as well. Most importantly the fact that Romans 8:11 was mention to thus solidifies the passage in question in whole rather than base an exegesis on a single snippet of the passage, or rather, a few words in a lone verse to justify and base a grand personal belief on Jesus alone and he himself when further on with included context, we see that God was indeed the one who has raised Jesus, resurrecting  him, and it was God who will give that same authority to Jesus to raise a great multitude of people in the process.

That being said, cross-references should be taken seriously - it is in your bible for a reason as well as footnotes.

On 11/7/2018 at 7:00 PM, Shiwiii said:

Lets move on about John 1:3, in particular not the verse John 1:3 but my supporting scriptures that back up that Jesus in fact did create everything and was not created and is God.

Well then, let us see your supporting Scriptures, surely it must include who is the Light as well or perhaps the Genesis Act of Creation also, that of which is mentioned in John's Introductory.

I am also willing, and able to discuss John’s Introductory, as is with verse 3 which is included in that same introductory.

I let you go first because it isn’t a matter of Jesus being created or not, in this sense, but what the introductory entails in of itself.

On 11/7/2018 at 7:00 PM, Shiwiii said:

Who is speaking in Isaiah throughout and being recorded?  The Hebrew scriptures state it is YHWH, do you agree? 

You will have to be more specific on what in Isaiah you want to discuss about. Isaiah speaks of YHWH all the time, he also spoke to what is to become of God's enemies, what is to become of him when he is no longer held powerless by the earth, furthermore, he spoke extensively of the Promised Seed of God who is spoken of as the Horn of Salvation later on in the text, ironically enough, one of such things Isaiah said points to John 2:19 thus disqualifies the claim that Jesus raised himself.

That being said, I will be happy to discus about Isaiah, apparently I am mimicking him as he did to the leaders of Judah right now.

Moreover, I find YHWH testimony a strong one about himself in the Old Testament, an obvious and infamous one, perhaps you might agree with it if you know what I am referring to.

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Your wall of text has discouraged me into responding, partly because you introduce more information that does not directly involve the topic and I feel this is to distract any reader into actually remembering what the topic of discussion is about. 

there are so many things in your response that need addressing, and to break it down into realistic portions would create so many threads on this board that no one else would be able to post. I think you do this on purpose, meaning write more that necessary, to somehow try and overwhelm whomever it is you are speaking with so they just leave and then you can say "well they couldn't answer" and assume you have it all correct. it is a typical tactic of jws in general, instead of staying on track, add additional material to bury the original question. Anyway.......

I am not going to go through your whole post and pull out everything to respond to, but I'll pick a couple. 

 

On 11/8/2018 at 11:37 PM, Space Merchant said:

Because it is true that Trinitarians believe all 3, in this case, all 3 Gods make up 1 God, thus making them Triune, at the same time they do not believe such because of the whole aspect of distinct persons, therefore when it comes to the verse in question Jesus was not of the Triune God, especially if someone were to accept the claim that Jesus raised himself.

right here you have demonstrated you do not comprehend what the trinity is, nor what trinitarians believe. There is not 3 Gods. I would explain it to you, but I believe that you would play dumb or hold fast to your idea that is already formed. Either way, I suggest you research what the trinity is, as trinitarians believe it. You have already mentioned that you have spoken to James White or someone close to him, that is a great place to start as James DOES know. 

 

On 11/8/2018 at 11:37 PM, Space Merchant said:

You will have to be more specific on what in Isaiah you want to discuss about.

 

On 11/8/2018 at 11:37 PM, Space Merchant said:

That being said, I will be happy to discus about Isaiah,

Isaiah 44, who is recorded as speaking in verses 21-28?  Is it not YHWH? 

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57 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

you do not comprehend what the trinity is, nor what trinitarians believe

Does anyone?

 "the Triune reality of God is ultimately beyond human reasoning. As St. Augustine remarked, “If you understood Him, it would not be God” 

Carl E. Olson. Editor of Catholic World Report and Ignatius Insight.

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2 minutes ago, Outta Here said:

Does anyone?

 "the Triune reality of God is ultimately beyond human reasoning. As St. Augustine remarked, “If you understood Him, it would not be God” 

Carl E. Olson. Editor of Catholic World Report and Ignatius Insight.

if one does not, then they should not profess to know. 

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1 hour ago, Shiwiii said:

Your wall of text has discouraged me into responding, partly because you introduce more information that does not directly involve the topic and I feel this is to distract any reader into actually remembering what the topic of discussion is about. 

I tend to response to each response, so it tends to be this way in discussions.

1 hour ago, Shiwiii said:

right here you have demonstrated you do not comprehend what the trinity is, nor what trinitarians believe. There is not 3 Gods. I would explain it to you, but I believe that you would play dumb or hold fast to your idea that is already formed. Either way, I suggest you research what the trinity is, as trinitarians believe it. You have already mentioned that you have spoken to James White or someone close to him, that is a great place to start as James DOES know. 

Actually I have and I am pulling the information from Triniarian sources of which I been holding on to for several years now. The Trinity Doctrine's belief. There is no question that the doctrine holds to believing in the one and only True God, but they divide God into 3 distinct person, as you put it The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, which are clearly, in this doctrine 3 distinct persons all making up the Triune God, but at the same time, the belief also professes that The Father, Son and or Holy Spirit do not make up the Triune God. I do not go about my own ideas granted that the information came from those who profess the doctrine itself.

I have researched what the Trinity is and know that it when it was brought up and who was involved, when both the word and terminology was coined and so forth granted early Christians were primarily Subornationist, something of which I stated several times before, one of which when I had to deal with another Trinitarian who was moving information in his favor. 

Indeed, James White knows his doctrine, he is also known for brushing over the very thing the Christ professed as a child and a list of other things as seen in his debates. James White is known for sending his own to bully those who knows the truth, he is known to have his own followers mock up conspiracy in Hyde, the dwelling place of Jay Smith and his crew, some of which, are among the extreme side.

Other than that, I talked with James White followers (not James White himself, I will probably get that chance soon), who also follow KJV-Onlyist, FLDS, Jay Smith, David Wood, etc. Wood's focus was primarily about manuscript and codex evidence.

So what I can ask you, regarding James White, you think it was right in his eyes to brush over the foremost command even saying things of it that it isn't in which people adhere to, which resulted in even other Trintiarians and even Non-Trinitarians to make a response?

1 hour ago, Shiwiii said:

Isaiah 44, who is recorded as speaking in verses 21-28?  Is it not YHWH? 

verses 21-28 is regarding The Lord Redeems Israel.

I already know where this is going because I spoke about this before on occasion. You and I am sure some Trinitarians actually claim and or assume the words, "his Redeemer, Yahweh of hosts" means Yahweh's Redeemer is Yahweh of Hosts." Yahweh's Redeemer is then identified as by Trinitarians to be Jesus by an act of their own will and then they declare that Jesus is therefore being identified as "Yahweh of Hosts." The truth of the matter is - the Scriptural facts show that "his Redeemer" is a reference to Israel's Redeemer and Trinitarians are disregarding the contextual facts (with even cross-references that is regarding all in this passage), so we can discuss on that if that is the case.

The Lord Redeems Israel

outlined

Yah's/Jah's, Israel’s Repurchaser (21-23)

Restoration done through Cyrus (24-28)

[21] Remember these things, O Jacob, and Israel, for you are my servant; I formed you; you are my servant; O Israel, you will not be forgotten by me. [22] I have blotted out your transgressions like a cloud and your sins like mist; return to me, for I have redeemed you. [23] Sing, O heavens, for the Lord has done it; shout, O depths of the earth; break forth into singing, O mountains, O forest, and every tree in it! For the Lord has redeemed Jacob, and will be glorified in Israel. [24] Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, who formed you from the womb: “I am the Lord, who made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself, [25] who frustrates the signs of liars and makes fools of diviners, who turns wise men back and makes their knowledge foolish, [26] who confirms the word of his servant and fulfills the counsel of his messengers, who says of Jerusalem, ‘She shall be inhabited,’ and of the cities of Judah, ‘They shall be built, and I will raise up their ruins’; [27] who says to the deep, ‘Be dry; I will dry up your rivers’; [28] who says of Cyrus, ‘He is my shepherd, and he shall fulfill all my purpose’; saying of Jerusalem, ‘She shall be built,’ and of the temple, ‘Your foundation shall be laid.’”

 

That being said, I am still baffled on the whole something dead raising themselves of which is borderline undeath doctrine, to which that still needs explanation.

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30 minutes ago, Outta Here said:

Does anyone?

 "the Triune reality of God is ultimately beyond human reasoning. As St. Augustine remarked, “If you understood Him, it would not be God” 

Carl E. Olson. Editor of Catholic World Report and Ignatius Insight.

The doctrine of the Trinity is as followed:

  • [1] There is one and only one God
  • [2] God externally exists as 3 distinct and or co-equal persons.
  • [3] The Father is God, the Son is God and the Holy Spirit is God
  • [4] The Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Father, the Father is not the Holy Spirit thus making up the Triune God.
  • [5] The Father is not the Triune God, the Son is not the Triune God and the Holy Spirit is not the Triune God.

According to their diagram, the Trinity states God exist in 3 distinct divine persons who are identical in essence, and co-eternal and co-equal in power.

One thing to note they are not too far off from their Modalist and Oneness counterparts.

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      49. both are all in all (I Corinthians 15:28; Colossians 3:11)
      50. both are known by believers (Galatians 4:9; Philippians 3:10; John 17:3)
      51. both are cleaved to by believers (Deuteronomy 10:20; John 15:4)
      52. both are the light of the world (Psalm 27:1; John 8:12)
      53. both are the Light of the New Jerusalem (Isaiah 60:19,20; Revelation 21:23)
      54. both give eternal life (Psalm 36:9; John 10:28)
      55. both are called ‘My Lord and my God’ (Psalm 35:22,23; John 20:28)
      56. both are our Righteousness (Isaiah 45:24; I Corinthians 1:30; Jeremiah 23:5,6)
      57. both have the same voice as of many waters (Ezekiel 43:2; Revelation 1:15)
      58. both are witnessed to by believers (Isaiah 43:10; Acts 1:8)
      59. both own the peace given to believers (Philippians 4:7; John 14:27)
      60. both own the gospel (I Thessalonians 2:2; Romans 1:16)
      61. both give saving grace (Titus 2:11; Acts 15:11)
      62. both are our peace (Judges 6:24; Ephesians 2:14)
      63. both are pierced and looked upon (Zechariah 12:10; John 19:37)
      64. both sanctify believers (Exodus 31:13; I Corinthians 6:11)
      65. both give victory to believers (Psalm 98:1; I Corinthians 15:57)
      66. both heal people (Exodus 15:26; Matthew 9:35)
      67. both equally own the churches (I Corinthians 15:9; Romans 16:16; I and II Thess. 1:1)
      68. both own the Kingdom (Matthew 6:33; Rev. 11:15).
      69. both are glorified by the Gentiles (Isaiah 24:15; II Thessalonians 1:12; Matthew 12:21)
      70. both own the Day of the Lord (Isaiah 13:6; Philippians 1:6; II Thessalonians 2:2)
      71. both give grace to believers (Romans 5:15; Colossians 1:6; II Cor. 8:9; Galatians 6:18)
      72. both own the same glory (Romans 5:2; II Corinthians 8:23)
      73. both own the same love (John 5:42; II Corinthians 5:14)
      74. both own the same Word (Psalm 119:11; I Thessalonians 2:13; Colossians 3:16)
      75. both own salvation (Luke 3:6; Jonah 2:9; Acts 4:12; II Timothy 2:10)
      76. both were served equally by Paul (Titus 1:1; Romans 1:1);and by James (James 1:1)
      77. both own the commandments (I John 5:3; John 14:15)
      78. both had their way prepared by John the Baptist (Isaiah 40;3; Mark 1:1-3)
      79. both search all hearts (Psalm 139:1; Revelation 2:23)
      80. both own the same flock (I Peter 5:2; John 21:15,16)
      81. both ascend on high, lead captivity captive, and give gifts to men (Psalm 68:17,18; Ephesians 4:7-10)
      82. both are like a Bridegroom (Isaiah 62:5; Mark 2:19,20)
      83. both receive the glory of God alone forever and ever (Isaiah 42:8; Galatians 1:4,5; I Peter 5:10,11; II Peter 3:18; Hebrews 13:21; I Peter 4:11; Revelation 1:5,6)
      84. both are the source of fruit (Hosea 14:8; John 15:5)
      85. both are our source of strength (Psalm 119:28; Philippians 4:13)
      86. both give rest for our souls (Jeremiah 6:16; Matthew 11:29)
      87. both shall appear at Christ’s return (Psalm 102:16; Zechariah 14:3,4,5; Titus 2:13)
      88. both will come to earth (Isaiah 40:10; Revelation 22:7,12,20)
      89. both are to be trusted in (Jeremiah 17:7; Ephesians 1:12; John 14:1)
      90. both are our King (Isaiah 6:5; 33:22; Revelation 17:14; 19:16; I Timothy 6:14,15)
      91. both will wound their enemies’ heads (Psalm 68:21; 110:6)
      92. both take vengeance (Romans 12:19; II Thessalonians 1:7,8)
      93. both will be opposed by the Antichrist’s armies (Isaiah 34:22; Revelation 19:19)
      94. both will fight against the Antichrist’s armies at Armageddon (Zechariah 14:3; Revelation 19:11,13,21)
      95. both will destroy death (Isaiah 25:8; II Timothy 1:10).
      96. both receive the faith of believers (I Thessalonians 1:8; Galatians 3:26)
      97. both are our life (Deuteronomy 30:20; Colossians 3:4)
      98. both are to be prayed to (Matthew 6:9; Acts 7:59)
      99. both raised up Christ (Acts 2:32; John 2:19,21)
      100.both own all of the other (John 16:15)
      101.both enter the east gate of Jerusalem (Ezekiel 44:1,2; Luke 19:37-45)
      102.the man on the throne in Ezekiel 1:26 is identified as the God of Israel in Ezek 10:20
      103.both names are placed on the same level in the baptism formula (Matthew 28:19)
      104.both fellowship equally with believers (I John 1:3).
      105.both comfort believers (Isaiah 66:13; Philippians 2:1).
      106.both receive doxologies of worship in heaven (Revelation 5:8-10; 5:11,12; 5:13,14).
      107.both jointly send grace and peace to the churches (Romans 1:7).
      108.both the love of the Father and love of the Son are an equal privilege given to us.(John 14:21)
      109.both jointly declare themselves to be Jehovah, “I am the first,& I am the last”(Isaiah 44:6)
      110.both come to his temple, ‘the Lord shall suddenly come to his temple.’(Malachi 3:1; Mat 21:13)
      111.both are the King of Israel (Isaiah 44:6; John 1:49).
      112. both can be blasphemed (God-Rom.2:24; HS-Luke 12:10; Christ-Luke 22:65; Acts 13:45; 18:5,6; 26:9,11)
      113.both are always with all believers (Matthew 28:20; 2 Corinthians 13:14).
      114.both are the one lawgiver (God-Rom.7:22; Christ-Gal.6:2; HS-Rom.8:2; James 4:12).
      115.both have the same face (Revelation 22:3,4)
      116.both have the same Name (Revelation 22:3,4)
      117.both own the same servants (Revelation 22:3)
      118.both are the Temple of the New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:22)
      119.Heavens are the work of thy hands (Psalm 102:24-27; Hebrews 1:10-12)

      Since both Jesus and the Father have these same attributes, both are Jehovah God.
      There are not 2 Gods, but One God in 3 persons. One who has these attributes must be God.
      The Lord’s Prayer is devoted to worshipping the Father. Jesus conceals His personal glory
      in this prayer as seen by other Scriptures which are just as true of Christ as the Lord’s Prayer
      is of the Father.
    • By sami
      ONE OR THREE?
      In his book TWO BABYLONS, Alexander Hislop traces the various mythologies back to a common heritage. Hislop pointed out the antiquity of the theological concept of the Trinity by giving examples of pagan trinities in Siberia, Japan, and India. He noted that the recognition of the Trinity was “universal in all the ancient nations of the world”. He went so far as to say that “the supreme divinity in almost all heathen nations was triune”.
      Historian Arthur Wainwright can find no doctrine remotely resembling the doctrine of the Trinity taught in Judaism until the time of Philo in the first century AD. And we know that Philo, even though he was a Jewish priest, was heavily influenced by Greek pagan thought.
      The idea of a “plural” God was far from the Hebrew mind.
      The pagan idea of a triad is very old. Sumerians, according to Morris Jastrow, paid homage to a triad of El-lil, “god or lord of the storm”, Ea, “water deity” of Eridu on the Persian Gulf, and Anu, sun god of Ur-uk.
      El-lil, was called “the father of Sumer” (“Shinar”), and “chief of gods”, “creator and sustainer of life”. The universe was apparently up among these three “pre-eminent” deities.
      Later, Marduk, the “firstborn” of Ea, and the patron deity of Babylon, is made “god of the earth”,
      and his symbol, oddly enough, is the dragon. He was called “Bel” or “Baal” (lord).
      Ashur, the god of the Assyrian capital was a “sun god”, and his consort or wife was Ishtar, the “great mother” goddess of Nineveh, a city founded by Ninus or Nimrod.
      Ishtar, known as Ashtoreth to the Phoenicians, and Astarte to the Greeks, was often portrayed riding on a lion. She was called the daughter of the moon, and identified in astrology as the Roman Venus (“goddess of love”). She was also known as Nana or Madonna (Lady). From whence comes the title and worship of Mary as the Madonna and queen of heaven.
      Ishtar has a bloody history as a goddess. She was reputedly the murderer of her consort Tammuz (variously known as Baal, Adonis, the Egyptian Osiris, the Greek Bacchus, or simply Nimrod). Queen Semiramis later brought forth an illegitimate son, which she claimed was Nimrod resurrected. He was called El-Bar, or “God the Son”, and “the Branch of Cush”. Thus was formulated one of the ancient triadic patterns of “father, mother, son”
      Franz Cumont tells us that triads were very common in the religion of the Chaldeans. The Babylonian triad became the Syrian triad of Hadad, Atargatis, and Simios. In Rome, this triad was Jupiter, Venus, and Mercury. Not only did the triadic pattern of deity spread throughout the world, but Cumont remarks on the continuing influence of the Babylonian priesthood after the fall of Babylon from political leadership.
      The ancient Greeks impressed with the wisdom of the Babylonians. Franz Cumont said, “Philosophy claimed more and more to derive its inspiration from the fabulous wisdom of Chaldea (Babylon) and Egypt”.
      According to Cumont, the “entire neo-platonic school is heavily indebted to the Chaldeans (Babylonians)”. It was the neo-platonic school of philosophy which influenced the Catholic fathers, Justin Martyr, Clement of Alexandria, and Origen.
      Porphyry reveals that the neo-platonists had incorporated Babylonian and Persian demonology into their philosophical system.
      The Greek philosopher Plato, greatly influenced the Catholic fathers. He was acquainted with Babylonian wisdom, and had traveled to Babylonia, Israel, and Egypt.
      Philo Judaeus (20 BC-50 AD) of Alexandria was the man who attempted to fuse the strict monotheistic theology of the Hebrew religion with the transcendental theology and philosophy of the Greek platonists.
      He, Philo, had a profound influence upon the Catholic fathers, and therefore upon the development of the Catholic Trinity.
      For one looking into Philo’s work will see that his conception of the Logos, with some modifications, is very similar to later trinitarian teaching on the Catholic Logos.
      Charles Semisch has stated, “The early (Catholic) Fathers only poured the contents of the scriptures into a Philonian vessel: they view the biblical passages through a Philonian medium”.
      I thought that the quote by historian Will Durant is quite appropriate: “Christianity did not destroy paganism; it adopted it.
      . . . From Egypt came the ideas of a divine trinity.” In the book Egyptian Religion, where Siegfried Morenz says: “The trinity was a major preoccupation of Egyptian theologians . . . Three gods are combined and treated as a single being, addressed in the singular. In this way the spiritual force of Egyptian religion shows a direct link with Christian theology.”
      Morenz goes on to say “Alexandrian theology as the intermediary between the Egyptian religious heritage and Christianity.”
      Edward Gibbon’s History of Christianity said : “If Paganism was conquered by Christianity, it is equally true that Christianity was corrupted by Paganism. The pure Deism of the first Christians . . . was changed, by the Church of Rome, into the incomprehensible dogma of the trinity. Many of the pagan tenets, invented by the Egyptians and idealized by Plato, were retained as being worthy of belief.”
      Dictionary of Religious Knowledge says that the Trinity “is a corruption borrowed from the heathen religions, and ingrafted on the Christian faith.”
      The book…. The Paganism in Our Christianity said this of the trinity doctrine: “The origin of the [Trinity] is entirely pagan.”
    • By Jesus.defender
      THE TRINITY
      Watchtower Teaching: JW arguments against the Trinity are:
      i) If Jesus is God, who ran the universe during the three days that Jesus was dead in the grave? Satan had a great chance to take control.
      Answer: Jesus’ body died, not His soul or spirit. He along with the Father and the Holy Spirit still ran the universe.
      ii) If Jesus is the immortal God, He could not have died.
      Answer: The immortal God, by taking on a mortal body, had His mortal body die.
      iii) Since God is not a God of confusion (I Corinthians 14:33), it is impossible that the Bible would talk of a God who could not be understood by human reason. JWs claim that the Trinity is incomprehensible and unreasonable. ‘We worship what we know’ (John 4:22).
      Answer: Man’s lack of understanding has never stopped new discoveries. What percent of the total knowledge of the universe do you possess? (about zero percent).
      Ask: Could there be something about God that you don’t comprehend?(eg: His Trinity?).
      iv) The word ‘Trinity’ is not in the Bible.
      Answer: Neither is ‘Bible’, ‘organisation’, Kingdom Hall’, chocolate, motor car, etc.
      Say to the JW: ‘By this logic you would agree that Kingdom Halls don’t exist either?’
      This is shallow reasoning designed to throw the Christian off guard. If it can be proved that the Bible teaches a certain truth, then naming that truth does not make it unbiblical. We should ask: ‘Is the particular teaching in the Bible?’
      v) The Watchtower has misrepresented the Trinity doctrine in order to make its denial more plausible. 
      They erect a straw man that is easily knocked down.
      They call the Trinity a ‘freakish looking, three headed God’ (Let God be True, p 102)
      ‘This doctrine of three Gods in one God . . .’ (Studies in Scripture, 1899, Vol 5, p 60,61)
      Note: Trinitarians do not believe in ‘three Gods in one God’.
      They believe in one God, with three co-equal persons in the one Godhead.

      1. Refuting the Watchtower’s FALSE Quotes of Early Church Writers
      The Watchtower is quite happy to tell lies by inventing statements allegedly made by six Ante-Nicene Church writers who lived before 325 AD. Page 7 of their publication ‘Should you believe in the Trinity?’ Shows the Watchtower’s claims that these ancient writers taught that Jesus Christ was not God. These quotes are FALSE and INVENTED by the Watchtower. They are easily refuted by the photocopied excerpts of the 10 volume set of genuine Ante-Nicene church fathers quotes that prove these early writers strong belief in and defence of the Trinity.
      In the Watchtower’s false quotes we notice that:
      1) None of these references are given a source, making them nearly impossible to check. It is almost certain that the Watchtower has invented these quotes.
      2) Notice the lie of the central bold quote on page 7: ‘There is no evidence that any sacred writer even suspected the existence of a [Trinity] within the Godhead’.
      We refute this Watchtower lie, and prove beyond doubt that both the Trinity and the full deity of Christ were well known and firmly believed as early as 110 AD as seen from the quotes by the Ante-Nicene (before 325 AD) church fathers which follow the Watchtower quote.
      The following quotes are from the 10 Volume set of The Ante-Nicene Fathers, translations of The Writings of the Fathers down to A.D. 325, by editors Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, American Reprint of the Edinburgh edition, revised and arranged by A C Coxe, published by W.B.Eerdmans, Grand Rapids, Michigan, reprinted in May 1987.
      The Watchtower’s claim that Constantine and the Council of Nicea introduced the deity of Christ and Trinity doctrines in 325 AD is proven false by these pre-325 AD quotes to the contrary:
      i) Justin Martyr (110-165 AD),Volume I, page 263: ‘His Son, being God’ Volume I, page 219 Justin Martyr says:: ‘Christ existed as God before the ages’ Volume I, page 264). Justin Martyr says that ‘Christ is Lord and God’.
      ii) Irenaeus (120-202 AD) Volume I, page 328 not only shows the NWT to be wrong on John 1:1
      but also calls Christ ‘God’
      iii) Clement of Alexandria (153-217 AD) In Volume 2, p 468, written in 193 AD, Clement clearly quotes the Holy Trinity as Father, Son & Holy Spirit. page 173
      iv) Tertullian (200-250 AD) Volume 3, page 598 page 598 Tertullian against Praxeas, Volume 3, p.606 Tertullian correctly quotes John 1:1, saying that Christ is God. (Volume 3, p. 607) Tertullian again quotes the
      Trinity on a fourth occasion. (Vol 4, page 99)
      v) Hippolytus (170-236 AD) Volume 5, page 228 mentions the Trinity and quotes John 1:1 correctly.
      vi) Origen (185-254 AD) Volume 4, page 255. Twice he quotes the word ‘Trinity’, as Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Also on page 258 he quotes the Trinity in ‘Origen de Principiis’, written in 230 AD.
      vii) Thaumaturgus (205-265 AD) Volume 6, pages 42, 45
      2. Is the Trinity a Pagan Concept? No! Because:
      i) The Babylonians and Assyrians believed in triads of gods, which were three separate gods (polytheism) governing other gods. This is totally different from the Trinity of only one God (monotheism) with three persons within the one Godhead.
      ii) Triads of gods pre-date Christianity by about 700 years and were far removed from Israel..
      iii) Some pagan ideas have some truth in them, such as the pagan Flood legends. Just because pagans spoke of a concept that remotely resembles a biblical concept, does not mean that Christians stole it from the pagans.
      iv) JWs quote Hislop’s The Two Babylons to support their case, yet they don’t tell us that Hislop believes in the Trinity, as seen from Hislop’s quote:
      ‘They all admitted a Trinity, but did they worship the Triune Jehovah?’ (p. 90)
      - About 80% of the sources that the WT quotes are from Trinitarians. This begs the question: ‘How can the WT disprove the Trinity by quoting sources who believe the Trinity?
      - 15% of their sources are secular works like Encyclopaedia Britannica.
      - 5% of WT sources are invalid sources of Biblical truth, eg: sceptics, spiritists, Unitarians.
      - The WT always finds some unknown, obscure person to agree with them. They do not examine the credibility of such sources. Most WT sources have no credibility & no authority.
      - The WT rarely gives page numbers of its quotes to allow check the source and context.
      v) JWs claim they represent the ‘faith once delivered to the saints’. They claim that the Trinity idea was introduced in 325 AD. What they don’t say is that current WT teachings have no precedent in history. They do not say who were the JWs of the first three centuries or later. No early church ‘father’ represented their beliefs. The WT is historically bankrupt.
      vi) The WT, by showing a three-headed god, use the ‘straw-man effect’, where they misrepresent what Christians believe, and then proceed to ‘shoot down’ this ‘straw man’.
      This is seen in five pictures of three-headed gods which are supposed to represent the God of Christendom. (‘Should you believe in the Trinity’ p 10).
      vii) The WT is happy to misquote sources to prove their point.
      Consider page 6 ‘Should you believe in the Trinity’, where they misquote the New Encyclopaedia Brittanica by failing to give the full relevant quote. They stop the quote at the asterisk *
      ‘The Encyclopaedia Britannica (1976 Edition) correctly states:
      “Neither the word Trinity, nor the explicit doctrine as such, appears in the New Testament”,’
      [*They stop the quote here, ignoring the rest of the article which endorses the Trinity:]
      ‘nor did Jesus and his followers intend to contradict the Shema in the Old Testament: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord’ (Deuteronomy 6:4). The earliest Christians, however, had to cope with the implications of the coming of Jesus Christ and of the presence and power of God among them - ie, the Holy Spirit, whose coming we connected with the celebration of Pentecost.
      The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit were associated in such New Testament passages as the Great Commission: ‘Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit’ (Matthew 28:19); and in the apostolic benediction:
      ‘The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all’ (2 Cor. 13:14). Thus, the New Testament established the basis for the doctrine of the Trinity.The doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies.
      Any early church council disputes were over fine points of Trinity clarification, such as the substance, nature and omnipotence of Father, Son and Holy Spirit, never over whether the Trinity was right or wrong. The truth of the Trinity was always accepted.
      3. Refuting Watchtowers’ wrong application of I Corinthians 14:33
      ‘for God is not the author of confusion, but of peace . . .’
      Watchtower Teaching: JWs say that because God is not the author of confusion, the Trinity doctrine cannot be true because it is so unreasonable. How can the Father, Son and Holy Spirit each be God, and yet there be only one God? It doesn’t make sense to them.
      Bible Teaching: Just because one is unable to fully understand something, doesn’t mean that it is false.
      i) Finite humans cannot possibly understand everything about the infinite God.
      ‘How unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out.’ (Romans 11:33)
      ‘For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.
      As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts’. (Isaiah 55:8,9)
      ii) Can you fully understand how light can be both a particle of matter and a wave form?
      iii) Can you fully understand how God did not have a beginning? (No) Do you reject the idea?
      Ask: Should we reject the Trinity doctrine because we don’t fully understand it, when we accept other things about God and the universe which we don’t fully understand.
      I Corinthians 14:33 means that a church should avoid disharmony in its services by only
      having two or three prophets speak in a service, and only one at a time.
      ‘Confusion’ means ‘parts of a whole which are at strife with one another’.
      ‘Peace’ means ‘parts of a whole acting in harmony’.
      5. Refuting WT’s misunderstanding of Deuteronomy 6:4 and Mark 12:29
      ‘Hear,O Israel, the Lord (YHWH) our God (Elohim) is one Lord (YHWH).’ (Deut 6:4)
      Watchtower teaching: JWs say that, since God is one, He cannot be Triune at the same time. Why would God speak as one person if He were composed of three persons?
      Bible teaching: The ordinary name of God (Elohim) is in the plural form ‘Hear, O, Israel, Jehovah our Elohim, one Jehovah.’ Deut.6:4
      If God had intended to assert a solitary, exclusive type of unity, the expression would have been ‘Eloah’, not the plural ‘Elohim’.
      It does not say: ‘Hear, O Israel, Jehovah, our Elohim, one Eloah.’
      The use of Elohim (a uniplural noun) means: ‘there is a real plurality, yet Jehovah is one.’
      Ask: Who is Jehovah? Is it the Father alone? Is Jesus Jehovah? Is the Holy Spirit Jehovah?
      If we can find verses teaching that Jesus is Jehovah (or God) and the Holy Spirit is Jehovah,
      then we have proved the Trinity.
      i) The Holy Spirit is called Jehovah:‘Now Jehovah is the Spirit’.(II Corinthians 3:17 NWT)
      ii) Jesus Christ is called God, as follows:
      (1) ‘Our Lord Jesus Christ who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto’(I Tim 6:14-16)
      (2) ‘The Word was God.’ (John 1:1)
      (3) ‘of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ’ (Titus 2:13)
      (4) ‘the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ’. (II Peter 1:1)
      (5) ‘if ye believe not that I am, ye shall die in your sins.’ (John 8:24)
      (6) ‘Before Abraham was, I am.’ (John 8:58)
      (7) ‘God was manifest in the flesh’. (I Timothy 3:16)
      (8) ‘Thomas said unto him, My Lord and My God’. (John 20:28)
      (9) ‘in him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.’ (Colossians 2:9)
      (10) ‘unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God is forever.’ (Hebrews 1:8)
      (11) ‘If you publicly declare . . . that Jesus is Lord.’ (KIT: ‘ha Adon’ in Hebrew footnote of Romans 10:9. In the 1961 edition of NWT, p.1453, ‘ha Adon’ = Jehovah).
      (12) ‘that he (Christ) might be Lord both of the dead and the living’. (Romans 14:9).
      In verses 6-11 of NWT ‘??????’(Lord) is translated 7 times as Jehovah, except in v.9. Why?
      (13) ‘in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.’ (I John 5:20)
      (14) ‘feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.’ (Acts 20:28)
      6. Notice how God reveals Himself in stages to man:
      (1) God revealed His Unity as the one and only true God, to refute the nations’ many gods.
      (2) God revealed the Trinity (Jehovah=Father+Son+HS) in the Old Testament in:
      ‘Jehovah your God is God of gods (the Father), and Lord of lords (the Son)’. (Deut.10:17).
      ‘Thus saith Jehovah the King of Israel (the Father),and his redeemer Jehovah of hosts (the Son).Is44:6
      ‘God said “let us make man in our image . . .”.’ Genesis 1:26
      ‘Jehovah God said, “Behold the man is become as one of us . . .’ Genesis 3:22
      ‘Jehovah came down . . . the Lord said, let us go down . . .’ Genesis 11:5,7
      ‘the Lord saying . . . who will go for us?’ Isaiah 6:8
      ‘What is his name....and what is his Son’s name.’ Proverbs 30:4
      ‘the Lord God (the Father), and his Spirit (HS), hath sent me (Jehovah the Son).’ Isaiah 48:16.
      (3) God revealed the fullness of the Trinity doctrine in the New Testament:
      Matthew 28:19 ‘baptizing them in the name (singular name, not plural) of the Father, and of
      the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.’
      I John 5:7 ‘There are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.’
      Revelation 22:1,3,4 ‘the throne (of God and of the Lamb) shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him; they shall see his face, and his name shall be in their foreheads.’
      Key:God and the Lamb have one throne, one name, one face and one ownership of servants.
      II Corinthians 13:14 ‘The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost’. There is one God, but three persons within the Godhead.
      (4) Early Christians with a strong Jewish background, who knew Deuteronomy 6:4, continually refer to Jesus as ‘Lord’ and ‘God’ (Romans 10:13, I Thess 5:2, I Peter 2:3, 3:15.) They often apply to Jesus many Old Testament texts which refer to Jehovah, such as:
      a) Jesus Christ in Matthew 3:1-3 fulfils Isaiah 40:3 to‘Prepare the way of Jehovah’ and Elohim.
      b) Jesus Christ’s glory in John 12:41 is Jehovah’s glory in Isaiah 6:1-5.
      c) Jesus Christ’s voice as the sound of many waters in Revelation 1:15 is identical to Jehovah’s voice as the sound of many waters in Ezekiel 43:2.
      d) Jesus Christ being pierced in Rev 1:7 is the same one as Jehovah being pierced in Zech
      12:10.
      e) Jesus Christ being called on for salvation in Romans 10:13, is the same as Jehovah being called on for salvation in Joel 2:32
      f) Jesus Christ, the Lamb, is the everlasting light in Revelation 21:23, just as Jehovah ‘shall be . . . an everlasting light’ in Isaiah 60:19,20.
      Ask:Do you agree that Trinitarians believe Deuteronomy 6:4 that there is only one true God?
      Ask: Do you understand that Trinitarians don’t teach that there are three gods in the Trinity, but that there is only one God with three persons within the one Godhead?
      Ask: How do you explain that the early Jewish Christians who believed Deuteronomy 6:4, applied to Jesus many Old Testament texts that were originally written of Jehovah?
       
    • By Jesus.defender
      BIBLE PROOFS OF THE TRINITY

      Key: The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are so clearly and consistently linked in Scripture that, assuming that God is not three persons, makes it impossible to understand some passages.
      Though JWs exalt human reasoning against the Trinity doctrine, saying it is unreasonable,those who submit to God’s Word must conclude that it is unreasonable to doubt the Trinity.
      Consider these scriptures proving the Trinity:
      1. Matthew 28:19 The ‘Name’ of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.

      Watchtower teaching: JWs ask, ‘Does this verse prove the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are equal in substance, power and eternity?’ They say, ‘No, no more than listing three people
      Tom, Dick and Harry mean that they are three in one.’ They say that the Trinity doctrine is imposed on the text, not derived from it.

      Bible Teaching: The key point is that the word ‘name’ is singular in the Greek NT, thus proving that there is one God, but three distinct persons within the Godhead.
      This proves the Trinity because Jesus did not say:
      i) ‘into the names (plural) of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.’
      ii) ‘into the name of the Father, and into the name of the Son, and into the name of the Holy Spirit’, as if we had three separate beings.
      iii) ‘into the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit’ omitting the three articles (the), as if the Father, Son and Holy Spirit might be three designations of a single person.
      What He does say is: ‘into the name (singular) of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit’.
      Jesus first teaches the unity of the three by combining them all within a single name.
      He then teaches that each is a different person by introducing each of them in turn with the
      article (tou):
      Question: Can you see that rules of grammar dictate plurality (the, the, the) within unity (the name), because the word ‘name’ is singular and definite articles (Greek: tou) are placed in front of Father, Son and Holy Spirit?
      Other verses showing ‘three-in-oneness’ of the Godhead are:
      i) At the creation of man, ‘God said, let us make man in our image, after our likeness . .’ (Genesis 1:26). ‘Our image’ in v. 26 is explained as God’s image in v. 27.
      The one true God consists of three persons who are able to confer with one another and carry out their plans together, while still being one God.
      ii) After the Fall, ‘the Lord (Jehovah) God (Elohim) said, Behold, the man is become as one of us . ’ (Genesis 3:22)
      ‘Us’ refers back to LORD (Jehovah), showing plurality within the Jehovah Godhead.

      iii) At the Tower of Babel, ‘the LORD (Jehovah), said . . let us go down’ (Genesis 11:6,7).
      iv) Isaiah ‘saw the Lord (Adonai) sitting upon a throne (v.1) mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD (Jehovah) of hosts (v.5). I heard the voice of the Lord (Adonai) saying: ‘Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?’’ (Isaiah 6:1,5,8) Here Isaiah sees ‘Adonai’ on the throne, then Isaiah calls Him ‘Jehovah of hosts’ (v.5).

      Then Adonai asks,‘Who will go for us?’The ‘us’ shows plurality in the Jehovah Godhead. This equivalence of Adonai and Jehovah (both called ‘us’) proves the Trinity Godhead.
      2. Genesis 18 and 19. Three men each called Jehovah.
      JWs believe that it is impossible for Jehovah God to exist as three persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Yet Genesis 18 and 19 shows Jehovah appearing to Abraham as three men. This
      shows that even the impossible from a human viewpoint is possible with God. Notice that:

      i) Abraham addresses the three as ‘Jehovah’ (v.3 NWT);
      ii) When two of the three men depart to visit Lot in Sodom, Abraham continues to address the remaining one as ‘Jehovah’ (Genesis 18:22,26,27,30,31,32,33).
      iii) Lot addressed the other two as ‘Jehovah’ (Genesis 19:1,18 NWT). ‘Then Lot said to them: “Not that please, Jehovah”.’ (19:18 NWT)
      iv) ‘Then Jehovah made it rain sulphur and fire from Jehovah, from the heavens upon Sodom and Gomorra.’ (Genesis 19:24)
      Notice the mention here of two Jehovahs, one in heaven who sends judgment on Sodom and Gomorra, at the bidding of the other Jehovah on earth.
      This gives strong evidence for more than one person in the Godhead. The Jehovah upon earth was one of three persons to visit Abraham, one of whom stays behind to speak further to Abraham and is called Jehovah. (Genesis 21:1 ‘Jehovah turned his attention to Sarah’).
      Hence this shows that it is possible for Jehovah to manifest Himself as three-in-one.
       
      3. II Corinthians 3:17 - ‘Jehovah is the Spirit’ (NWT).
       
      JWs challenge Christians to prove the Trinity in the Bible. This can be done if we find verses teaching that the Holy Spirit is Jehovah God, and the Son is Jehovah God.
      II Corinthians 3:17 teaches this by saying: ‘Now Jehovah is the Spirit.’

      How much clearer can it be than this, which states that the Holy Spirit is (=) Jehovah God? This proves the Deity of the Holy Spirit, and the existence of 2 persons in the Godhead.
      4. I John 5:7,8 The Johannine Comma, the famous Trinitarian proof text (3 Heavenly witnesses)
      Watchtower teaching: JWs claim that this passage ought not to be in the Bible, because it is not in most Greek manuscripts. It is omitted by most modern Bible versions. ’
      Bible Teaching: Erasmus omitted it from his first edition of the printed Greek NT (1516), because it occurred in the Latin Vulgate and not in any Greek manuscript. To quieten the
      outcry that followed, he agreed to restore it if it could be found in one Greek manuscript.
      Two Greek manuscripts, Codex 61 and 629 were found, so Erasmus included it in his 1522 edition. Since these manuscripts are late (14th and 15th Century), some think the readings are
      corrupt. What do we answer? (See page 805-806).

      5. In II Corinthians 13:14, (the Apostolic Benediction) why is there a change in the order of the persons of the Trinity, compared to Matthew 28:19, if not to show that ‘in this Trinity
      none is before or after the other, and none is greater or less than another’?

      ‘The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.’ (II Corinthians 13:14)
      ‘Baptising them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.’ Matt. 28:19
    • By Brother Rando
      You may be surprised to find out that the trinity doctrine does not accept Jesus Christ.  It promotes a false gospel that ‘three separate persons make up God’ which is unbiblical. Therefore, it is not unusual to come across an apostate trinitarian who deny the teachings of Jesus Christ.
      When Jesus Christ stated that ‘God is a Spirit’ in (John 4:24) trinitarians proclaim that Christ was lying because their doctrine teaches that God is made up of three separate PERSONS.  In John 17:1 Jesus addresses his Father in prayer, he said: “Father,… and in John 17:3  he states, “This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God”  Was Jesus addressing God the Father or the trinity itself?
      Trinitarians proclaim he was not addressing the trinity itself, but God the Father.  Wouldn’t that prove that the trinity is a False God?  “He stands in opposition and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he sits down in the temple of God, publicly showing himself to be a god.” (2 Thessalonians 2:4)
      As Jesus continue his teachings he states, “God is a Spirit, and those worshipping him must worship with spirit and truth.” (John 4:24)  Notice those worshiping HIM is in singular?  Not ‘us’ ‘we’ they’ ‘them’ or even ME.  Since trinitarians admit that the trinity is not God itself, aren’t trinitarians worshipping ‘gods’?  None of them worship God the Father alone who Jesus claims to be the only true God in (John 17:3)  Jesus Christ continues, “Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshippers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for indeed, the Father is looking for ones like these to worship him.” (John 4:23)
      According to Jesus, only the Father was to be worshipped, not a trinity of ‘gods’.  Jesus made his Father’s Name known to his disciples. “I have made your name manifest to the men whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours, and you gave them to me, and they have observed your word.” (John 17:6)  Jesus even went as far to teach his disciples to pray this way: “Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified.” 
      If you take a closer look at the trinity doctrine, NONE of the Persons have a NAME.  It’s a generic formula borrowed from Pagan Worship. Trinitarians shout and yell that, Jesus is God the Son in the trinity.  But the trinity itself simply doesn’t give witness about Jesus.  When asked to show the doctrine they often turn red and say that I must simply believe them.  Then I ask, since the trinity doesn’t state that Jesus is God the Son, show one scripture that states that. They hee and haw in frustration and begin to taunt and curse not able to find a single verse. You won’t find God the Son or God the Holy Spirit in the Bible because it simply isn’t.  There is a HUGE difference from God the Son and son of God.  If Jesus is the son of God, then whose son is he?  The trinity doesn’t have three sons does it?
      Jesus is not the only person to give witness about his God and Father.  The Apostles would greet one another with a similar phrase.  “Praised be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,” (1 Peter 1:3)   The trinity omits the Name of God, and it omits the Name of Christ.  Matter of fact, here is what the scriptures state about the trinity. “For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those not acknowledging Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist.” (2 John 7)
      Have you accepted the mark of the Beast and not even know it?  In Ancient times, the trinity was symbolized by three snakes, each snake would chase its own tail looking like 
      Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.    A time is coming, if you refuse to worship the trinity, you will be put to death.  “And it was permitted to give breath to the image of the wild beast, so that the image of the wild beast should both speak and cause to be killed all those who refuse to worship the image of the wild beast.” (Rev 13:15)  
      Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. , with a Worldwide membership of 2.8 Billion People and growing!  Mankind who are both weak or strong, slave or king, such ones march in the streets to promote or protest.  They place themselves above others claiming they have rights that no one else can have.  They proclaim they even have the right to end life, should they carry a life inside them. They make themselves godlike and others have to bend to their superiority.  (Read  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ) Those who deny 
      Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. and have already accepted the mark of the Beast willingly.  “For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins,” (Hebrews 10:26) Feel free to contact me if you wish to leave the occult of the trinity.  There is HELP.
    • By Kurt
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
    • By Brother Rando
      Who would reject the Baptism in the Name of our Lord Jesus Christ? The Answer may surprise you.  In fulfillment of prophecy Jesus stated, “And this good news of the Kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.” (Matthew 24:14)
      The Catholic Encyclopedia, II, page 263:“The baptismal formula was changed from the name of Jesus Christ to the words Father, Son, and Holy Spirit by the Catholic Church in the second century.”
      “The Demonstratio Evangelica” by Eusebius: Eusebius was the Church historian and Bishop of Caesarea. On page 152 Eusebius quotes the early book of Matthew that he had in his library in Caesarea. According to this eyewitness of an unaltered Book of Matthew that could have been the original book or the first copy of the original of Matthew. Eusebius informs us of Jesus’ actual words to his disciples in the original text of Matthew 28:19: “With one word and voice He said to His disciples: “Go, and make disciples of all nations in My Name, teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you.” That “Name” is Jesus.
      The Tyndale New Testament Commentaries, I, page 275:“It is often affirmed that the words in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost are not the ipsissima verba [exact words] of Jesus, but…a later liturgical addition.”
      Catholic Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger: He makes this confession as to the origin of the chief Trinity text of Matthew 28:19. “The basic form of our (Matthew 28:19 Trinitarian) profession of faith took shape during the course of the second and third centuries in connection with the ceremony of baptism. So far as its place of origin is concerned, the text (Matthew 28:19) came from the city of Rome.” — Joseph Ratzinger (pope Benedict XVI) Introduction to Christianity: 1968 edition, pp. 82, 83.
      How did the Hebrew Book of Matthew 28:18-20 read? “Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth.  Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations in MY Name,  teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you. And look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.” (Hebrew Matthew 28:18-20)
      To request a free home Bible Study click 
      Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. .
    • By Micah Ong
      New World Translation
      Isaiah 45:23 "By myself I have sworn; The word has gone out of my mouth in righteousness, And it will not return: Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. To me every knee will bend, Every tongue will swear loyalty
      Philippians 2:10 "so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend—of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground
      2 Corinthians 13:14 "The undeserved kindness of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the sharing in the holy spirit be with all of you." (Interlinear says: "fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with all you.")
      Interlinear John 1:1 "In beginning was the Word and the Word was with - God and God was the Word)
      It doesn't say and 'a' God was the Word.  It reads how it reads and both mentions of God start with Capital letters.
      The only Translation that I am aware of that puts "a god" is the the translation by a Spiritist who claims that the Holy Spirit came upon Joseph and they conceived Jesus.
       
    • Guest Nicole
    • By Cos
      The belief in the Triune God has been acknowledged by the early Christians...why do you guys claim that this is otherwise? <><
    • By The Librarian
      Many who believe that Jesus is God or in the Trinity rely only on a few selected, so-called 'proof-texts'.
      1. > If you want to tackle one of these (refute) please start a new thread (topic) and send me the link to that thread to add below
      2. > Gen. 1:26  
      3. > Gen. 19:24 
      4. > Isa. 6:3 ("Holy, Holy, Holy")  
      5. > Isa. 9:6  
      6. > Isa. 42:8/Heb. 1:3  
      7. > Isa. 43:11 (Savior)  
      8. > Isa. 44:6 ("First and the Last") 
      9. > Isa. 48:16 
      10 > Micah 5:2 
      11 > Habakkuk 1:12 
      12 > Zechariah 12:10  
      13 > Matt. 1:23 ("Immanuel") - NAME  
      14 > Matt. 12:32  
      15 > Matt. 28:19  
      16 > Luke 12:10  
      17 > John 1:1 
      18 > John 2:19  
      19 > John 5:18  
      20 > John 5:23  
      21 > John 8:58 (I AM)  
      22 > John 10:17-18  
      23 > John 10:30  
      24 > John 10:33 ("a god" or "God"?)  
      25 > John 14:7-9  
      26 > John 14:14  
      27 > John 16:7-15  
      28 > John 20:28 (My God)  
      29 > Acts 5:3, 4  
      30 > Acts 10:38  
      31 > Acts 13:2  
      32 > Acts 20:28  
      33 > Acts 28:25  
      34 > Rom. 8:27  
      35 > Rom. 9:5  
      36 > 1 Cor. 12:11  
      37 > 2 Cor. 4:4  
      38 > 2 Cor. 13:14  
      39 > Eph. 4:30  
      40 > Eph. 5:5 ("Sharp's Rule")  
      41 > Phil. 2:5, 6  
      42 > Col. 1:16 
      43 > Col. 2:9  
      44 > 1 Tim. 3:16  
      45 > Heb. 1:6  
      46 > Heb. 1:8 (“Thy Throne, O God”)  
      47 > 2 Pet. 3:18  (Savior)  
      48 > 1 John 5:7  
      49 > 1 John 5:20  
      50 > Rev. 1:8  
      51 > Rev. 1:17 ("First and the Last")  
      52 > Rev. 5:6 and Rev. 5:13 ("Throne")  
      53 > Rev. 22:1 (Throne)  
      54 > Rev. 22:13 (Alpha / Omega)
    • By Jesus.defender
      THE TRINITY OF THE GODHEAD SEEN IN NATURE.
      Question: How is the Trinity of the Godhead seen in nature as in Romans 1:20 ‘for the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse.
      Answer: a) We see God’s eternal power in earthquakes, volcanoes, wind, millions of stars, galaxies, waves, floods, lightning, sun, moon, nuclear bombs, etc.
      b) We see the Trinity of the Godhead with so many things coming in ‘threes’, reminding us of Father, Son, Holy Spirit, all three members of the creator Godhead. Examples include:
      1) The Physical Universe: Space, mass, time.
      2) Space: 3 dimensions of space are: length, breadth, height.
      3) Mass: 3 phases of matter are: solid, liquid, gas.
      4) Time: 3 tenses of time are: past, present, future.
      5) Light: 3 directions of light wave oscillation are: horizontal, 
      vertical, back and forward.
      6) Colours: 3 primary colours of light are: red, blue, yellow.
      7) Kingdoms: 3 Kingdoms are: Animal, vegetable, mineral.
      8) Animal: 3 main kinds of Animal are: fish, bird, land animals.
      9) Minerals: 3 main kinds of Minerals are: igneous, sedimentary, metamorphic.
      10) Heavens: 3 heavens are: atmosphere, space, God’s throne.
      11) Man: 3 components of Man are: body, soul (personality), spirit. (I Thess. 5:23).
      12) Divine institutions: 3 Divine institutions are: marriage, human government, church.
      13) Musical notes: 3 notes make up a musical chord.
      14) Sub-atomic particles: 3 main sub-atomic particles are: proton, electron, neutron,.
      15) Mankind: 3 divisions of the human race: Jew, Gentile, Church of God. (I Cor.10:32).
       
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