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Stake or Cross? How did Jesus die? What proof do we have?


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3 hours ago, Equivocation said:

@James Thomas Rook Jr. You can always try to out run the guards,

I would not try to outrun the guards if I was arrested ... under those same circumstances .... realizing there was ONLY two choices .... attack the guards and be killed on the spot ... or be tortured to death by being nailed to a piece of wood

If I was able to manage to kill one guard ... that should do the trick.

In retaliation, they would most probably immediately kill me then and there.

Probably would hurt less than a big car wreck, and perhaps I could take one of them with me, and die as a man, and not a slaughtered farm animal.

I'm Spartacus - Spartacus (8_10) Movie CLIP (1960) HD.mp4

Crucifixion does not sound like a really fun weekend ....

 

 

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I've used this argument at the door and with Bible studies, too: that supposedly Christians, even if they claim they are not worshiping the item, should still find it wrong to carry around a model of

Interesting stuff, especially the difference between Chi Rho and Tau Rho. Howeve,r he states: "2)............the earliest uses of the tau-rho are not as such free-standing symbols, but form

The PDF linked earlier, "Jehovah's Witnesses and the Cross" Leolaia, 1990, speaks of semantic restriction by which some Watchtower doctrines have developed by focusing on only the simplest etymologica

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@James Thomas Rook Jr. I don't think they would kill you on the spot. Death without punishment and such will not make the weekend or for the Romans or top the icing on the cake for them. They need to torture someone first before they send them off to be buried in Sheol. If they had to take some out instantly it most likely would be during a raid or confrontation in war. I mean, they will let people go at each other, fight each other event before they even make a move, for they were that tough in the days they had power.

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4 hours ago, Equivocation said:

@JW Insider This is kinda out of the blue but one thing I had noticed is those who use the cross in worship for wrong reasons, people putting more importance on what some say murder device. I know some people wouldn't dare use the cross at all also. Now when the cross is up side down then you are in mumbo jumbo town and it is ridiculously dark in what that signifies.

Irreligion. The inverted Cross. To be brief, it means a lot of things in which may be a bit too much to explain. The only example I can give is the Satanist in Detroit a while back who were representing the inverted cross - in black mind you.

One of my sources, Solider of God made mention of this a while back and I believe I had posted it sometime ago. After all, The Temple's Baphomet statue was unveiled there in Detroit some years ago.

But yes, you'd be surprise of how dark things can go.

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8 hours ago, Outta Here said:

Just the existence of a possible alternative to the traditional view was mind-boggling to me at the time, and caused me to revaluate many other "taken-for-granted" notions in connection with religious belief. 

 

8 hours ago, Outta Here said:

So at the end of the day, it is a matter of preference. I prefer the unpopular view.

You put on day light two very good thoughts. They are applicable to all of us, and also to the JW members ( and to WT, GB and others who run the show)  who are firmly holding their wrong positions in some teachings, doctrines, instructions, and views for the similar or same reasons. (taken for granted and preference)

thanks :))

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20 hours ago, Outta Here said:

It still doesn't change the fact that the apostasy associated with the two bar cross is far greater than a crux simplex which has not become the brand mark of "Christian" apostasy.

Matter of preference ?

Consider for a moment that cross is true fact. But JW are ready to firmly rejecting this fact ONLY because of reality how all other "FALSE" (apostate?) religions using that fact/symbol for own religious beliefs, doctrines and customs. 

Such idea is similar to those verses in Bible 

Luke 7:31-35 New International Version (NIV)

31 Jesus went on to say, “To what, then, can I compare the people of this generation? What are they like? 32 They are like children sitting in the marketplace and calling out to each other:

“‘We played the pipe for you,
    and you did not dance;
we sang a dirge,
    and you did not cry.’

33 For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine,and you say, ‘He has a demon.’ 34 The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and you say, ‘Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners.’ 35 But wisdom is proved right by all her children.

 

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1 hour ago, Srecko Sostar said:

who are firmly holding their wrong positions

I appreciate the point you are making here, however that is not the one I am making. My "opinion" on the matter in question is simply that, my "opinion". It is not "wrong" because it cannot be proven either way. It is just my choice of a particular alternative.

Your point takes the matter further in that you are making a judgement of what another thinks is "true" to be actually "wrong". That is a completely different arena.

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1 hour ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Therefore, those that wish to believe Jesus was crucified on a Latin Cross are free to think that way. They should also believe that Jesus married Mary Magdalene had historical children,

Your research is interesting but this statement detracts from it's quality because if nothing else, there remains the fact that the implement used to execute Jesus is not clearly defined in scripture. So to ridicule those who chose one alternative over another does not enhance your position.

Whilst the many details outlined above can be found rummaging through the rubbish, there is one point you raise in passing that I have considered although not mentioned so far: 

1 hour ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

We know the Pharisees and Sanhedrin wanted things done quickly before a specific time

Research and experiment have indicated that a T-beam execution could be a long drawn out affair, even lasting days. A single pale execution however would be over much more quickly, estimates ranging from minutes to hours. Regardless of Pharisees and scribes desires in this matter, we also need to consider the will of Jesus's Father, Jehovah God. He has made a promise to those carrying their own (symbolic, thankyou @JW Insider) torture stake.  Even if subjected to the ultimate sacrifice along with their trials at the hands of the "ruler of the world" (John 14:30), Jehovah promised that "he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear, but along with the temptation he will also make the way out so that you may be able to endure it." 1Cor.10:13. Jesus cry of “It has been accomplished!” (John 19:30) after 3 hours of hanging on the stake obviated his hanging there any longer. A single stake method of execution was enough to achieve this purpose.

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11 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Consider for a moment that cross is true fact. But JW are ready to firmly rejecting this fact ONLY because of reality how all other "FALSE" (apostate?) religions using that fact/symbol for own religious beliefs, doctrines and customs. 

This hypothesis is based on the false premise that the use of a two beam cross has been established as a fact which, patently, it has  not.

We do not reject fact in preference to fiction, that is just the allegation of opposers. But we do reserve the right to support an alternative, where such exists, regardless of it being popularly accepted or not. When possibilities are established as facts, we will adjust our thinking. This is something which is not always the case with opposers, and is the subject of much of their crticism.

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It would not surprise me in the least if evidence were discovered that indicated that Jesus died on a simple, upright pole, rather than a two-beamed traditional cross. It also wouldn't surprise me in the least if additional evidence were discovered that indicates that Jesus died on a traditional, two-beamed cross.

But up to this point, I'd have to admit that no evidence for a single-beamed upright pole with reference to Jesus' execution has yet been discovered. The evidence isn't very strong, but all of it, so far, points to a dual-beamed, traditional cross. 

8 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

I would suggest further research for those that are interested in learning antiquity. The first thing to look for is the original language for the word crucifixion.

Good points. And if Jesus were executed on a traditional, dual-beamed cross, then what would have been the correct words to refer to this type of instrument?

"STAUROS" and "CRUX."

And these are the words used in the oldest known manuscripts of the Bible. These are the same words used in the Christian Greek Scriptures and the early Latin translations of those Greek Scriptures, which were translated at a time when Greek was still a living vibrant language spoken by hundreds of thousands of people in the Roman world.

It's true that the Greek and Latin words "stauros" and "crux" could also refer to a simple upright pole, but it's also still true that the words "stauros" and "crux" were also the CORRECT words the Bible would use to refer to a two-beamed cross, or even another shape altogether. There was no better word. 

Of course, the same could be said for the single-beam, upright pole.

9 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

We know the cross was a pagan symbol.

While we have no direct evidence in the Bible that a traditional cross-shaped symbol was a pagan symbol, the Bible contains many direct examples showing that the single-beam, upright pole was a pagan symbol.

  • (Deuteronomy 16:21, 22) 21 “You should not plant any sort of tree as a sacred pole near the altar of Jehovah your God that you make for yourself. 22 “Neither should you set up a sacred pillar for yourself, something Jehovah your God hates.
  • (Judges 6:25) . . .tear down the altar of Baʹal that belongs to your father, and cut down the sacred pole next to it.
  • (1 Kings 15:12, 13) . . .He expelled the male temple prostitutes from the land and removed all the disgusting idols that his forefathers had made. 13 He even removed Maʹa·cah his grandmother from her position as queen mother, because she had made an obscene idol for the worship of the sacred pole. Aʹsa cut down her obscene idol and burned it in the Kidʹron Valley.
  • (1 Kings 16:33) 33 Aʹhab also made the sacred pole. Aʹhab did more to offend Jehovah the God of Israel than all the kings of Israel prior to him.

  • (1 Kings 18:19) 19 And now summon all Israel to me at Mount Carʹmel, as well as the 450 prophets of Baʹal and the 400 prophets of the sacred pole, who are eating at the table of Jezʹe·bel.”

  • (2 Kings 13:6) 6 (However, they did not depart from the sin of the house of Jer·o·boʹam that he had caused Israel to commit. They continued in this sin, and the sacred pole continued to stand in Sa·marʹi·a.)

  • (2 Kings 17:16) 16 They kept leaving all the commandments of Jehovah their God, and they made metal statues of two calves and a sacred pole, and they bowed down to all the army of the heavens and served Baʹal.

  • (2 Kings 18:4) 4 He was the one who removed the high places, smashed the sacred pillars, and cut down the sacred pole.. . .

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