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According to the GB, the parable of the Faithful Slave possibly becoming “Wicked”, is only a warning given by Christ.  What about the “foolish virgins”?

“The parable does not teach that a large number of the anointed would prove unfaithful and need to be replaced. Rather, it serves as a warning that each anointed Christian has the full capacity to choose either a course of preparedness and vigilance or a course of folly and unfaithfulness. Jesus exhorted: “Prove yourselves ready.” (Mt 24:44) Regardless of our hope, Jesus requires all of us to prepare our heart for faithful service and to meet the same standard of watchfulness. Our Christian Life and Ministry—Meeting Workbook—2018 

It’s very possible, even according to the WT, that the “virgins” could pursue a course of “folly and unfaithfulness”. But replaced? Knowing that the number “144,000” is most likely a deeply symbolic number of a symbolic book, I don’t believe so.   Rev 14:1-3  Also understanding that there were five virgins who were found “foolish” and five who were “wise” could very well signify those who are “armed” for battle in Armageddon. Each side are “gathered and collected together” according to the Arabic meaning of “five”.  http://www.balashon.com/2006/05/chamesh.html

 These terms seems to signify Armageddon’s war between “kings of the earth” (Rev 1:5), which is fought between those “virgins” who have ‘collected and connected’ with Christ as his Bride, and those who continue to “arm” themselves with Satan’s lies by buying oil/spirit from another source – the false prophet/Harlot and her Beast of Revelation chapter 13.  Rev 17:18; 19:19  https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev+1%3A5%3B+13%3A1%2C11%3B+17%3A18%3B+19%3A19&version=CSB


 David Splane recently made a broadcasting video on the ten virgins of Matt 25:1-13

He states:

 “In the parable there is an interval between the cry, “here is the bridegroom” and the coming of the Bridegroom.  Now, what about the fulfillment.  When do you think the cry went up, ‘here is the Bridegroom’?    

You’re right.   1914

Just thirteen years ago, Watchtower stated: 

Then in 1919 something unexpected happened. We read: “Right in the middle of the night there arose a cry, ‘Here is the bridegroom! Be on your way out to meet him.’ Then all those virgins rose and put their lamps in order.” (Matthew 25:6, 7) Just when things seemed darkest, there was a call to get active! In 1918, Jesus, “the messenger of the covenant,” had come to Jehovah’s SPIRITUAL TEMPLE to inspect and cleanse God’s congregation. (Malachi 3:1) Now, anointed Christians needed to go out and meet him in the earthly courtyards of that temple. It was time for them to “shed forth light.”—Isaiah 60:1; Philippians 2:14, 15.  w04 3/1 pp. 13-18 

Apparently, Watchtower decided it didn’t happen in 1919, but “new light” shines on 1914, according to Splane. Let’s see when it has really occurred.  When Watchtower mentions the anointed must go out and meet Jesus in the “earthly courtyards of that temple”, they are indirectly and in a rather hazy way, referring to Rev 11:1-3

“Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood, saying, “Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there. But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, FOR IT HAS BEEN GIVEN TO THE GENTILES. And they will TREAD the holy city underfoot for forty-two months. I will grant my two witnesses authority to prophesy for 1,260 days, dressed in sackcloth.” 

The “holy city”, Zion, is the promised “Jerusalem above”, and God’s Temple. Its members are spiritual “Israel”, the anointed priesthood under the New Covenant.  In Rev 11:2 “Gentiles” “tread” on the holy city.  An invasive group of people not part of spiritual “Israel” are treading upon and subduing “Israel”, the special possession of God.   Rom 9:6; 1 Pet 2:5,9,10; 1 Cor 3:16,17; Eph 2:20-22; Rev 3:12   https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rom+9%3A6%3B+1+Pet+2%3A5%2C9%2C10%3B+1+Cor+3%3A16%2C17%3B+Eph+2%3A20-22%3B+Rev+3%3A12&version=CSB

The graphic Bible definition of “tread”:

A.                 to trample, crush with the feet

B.                 to advance by setting foot upon, tread upon: to encounter successfully the greatest perils from the machinations and persecutions with which Satan would fain thwart the preaching of the gospel

C.                 to tread under foot, trample on, i.e. to treat with insult and contempt: to desecrate the holy city by devastation and outrage

According to Watchtower, “trampling” has been ongoing for centuries down to this day by Christendom’s clergy, as the Man of Lawlessness. Yet we see during the last days, it rebelliously “sits”/”stands” or rules, over the Temple of God.  2 Thess 2:3,4; Dan 11:36,37; Rev 13:1,2  God’s temple “stones” are found within the Watchtower where a spiritual peaceful “paradise” and security are promised, captivating them with “empty philosophy”.  Col 2:8; Rev 13:10   Logically, we should find the Man of Lawlessness where the Temple of God resides, persecuting and treading “under foot” with “insults and contempt”, God’s living stones of His Temple.  Could it happen within a perceived spiritual paradise? 1 Thess 5:3; Ezek 13:10,15,16  


The treading or trampling of the holy city, has another aspect to it. It brings an end to the “constant feature”/“daily sacrifice”, or “sacrifice of praise” to be performed by the holy priesthood. 1 Pet 2:5,9; Heb 13:15  I am sure JWs believe that their “preaching work” is their daily sacrifice of praise.  You believe this effort has been amply blessed by God even today. Has Christendom’s clergy done so much damage to you that your preaching work has been eliminated? No.  Who’s sacrifices of praise are then being dissolved? The book of Daniel isn’t referring to all JW’s, but only to the “holy ones”, the holy priesthood/Temple of “Israel”.  https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Pet+2%3A5%2C9%3B+Heb+13%3A15+&version=CSB

“His ARMED FORCES will rise up to desecrate the TEMPLE FORTRESS and will abolish the daily sacrifice. Then they will SET UP the ABOMINATION that causes desolation.  Dan 11:31

The “armed forces” are the Gentiles of Revelation 11:2, treading on the Temple/priesthood.  Rev 9:1-6  https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev+11%3A2%3B+9%3A1-6&version=CSB

 “So when you see the ABOMINATION of desolation, spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place” (let the reader understand),”  Matt 24:15

Note:  Watchtower’s Greek Kingdom Interlinear says, “THE holy place” (specifically defined as “the, this, that, one, he, she, it, etc “) while NWT says, “A holy place”.  Such generalization allows for deceitful diversion from THE ONLY holy place of God – His “living temple”.  2 Cor 6:16   https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Cor+6%3A16&version=CSB

Do you, reader, understand?  Besides many other scriptures, The Man of Lawlessness and its actions is outlined in Revelation 11:1-3, Dan 11:31, and Matt 24:15. 

Ezek 44:6-9 tells us why it is an “abomination”

 “Now say to the rebellious, to the house of Israel, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “O house of Israel, let Us have no more of all your abominations. When you brought in foreigners, uncircumcised in heart and uncircumcised in flesh, to be in My sanctuary to defile it—My house—and when you offered My food, the fat and the blood, then they broke My covenant because of all your abominations. And you have not kept charge of My holy things, but you have set others to keep charge of My sanctuary for you.” Thus says the Lord God: “No foreigner, uncircumcised in heart or uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter My sanctuary, including any foreigner who is among the children of Israel”

Read also 2 Chron 23:6; Num 3:10; Lam 1:10   https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Chron+23%3A6%3B+Num+3%3A10%3B+Lam+1%3A10&version=CSB

Using this description of an abomination in God’s House, and how others have taken on the role of priest, can you see the correlation? 

Gentiles treading THE “holy city” (Rev 11:1,2),

 the abomination (“foreigners”) in THE temple fortress (Dan 11:31),

the “abomination of desolation”/”disgusting thing in THE holy place” (Matt 24:15)

Mark 13:14 reads:   “When you see the abomination of desolation standing where it should not be” (let the reader understand)

All describe the same event spoken of in 2 Thess 2:4.  An exalted group of spiritually “uncircumcised” people have been given power to rule over God’s anointed priests and replace the “daily sacrifice”.  They rule over the Temple of God”, offering their own “daily sacrifice”.

2 Thess 2:3,4 - “Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way. For THAT DAY will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the MAN OF LAWLESSNESS is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. He opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he sitsin God’s temple, proclaiming that he himself is God.”

What day is it speaking of? 

“Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him: We ask you, brothers and sisters, not to be easily upset or troubled, either by a prophecy or by a message or by a letter supposedly from us, ALLEGING THAT THE DAY OF THE LORD HAS COME”  2 Thess 2:1,2

Splane said that day was in 1914.  The Watchtower also said it was 1919. 1874 is an even earlier date mentioned in Watchtower’s history as the arrival of the Bridegroom.   Although Paul issued this warning to the anointed in Christ since the first century, it is vital at this moment to understand JWs are being deceived by false prophesy. Matt 7:15; Rev 13:11   https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matt+7%3A15%3B+Rev+13%3A11&version=CSB

To recap, the organization tells you, JWs, that the Man of Lawlessness has been revealed as Christendom’s clergy.  Christendom was to blame for “trampling” God’s holy people/Temple/priesthood, resulting in the cry that the Bridegroom had come to the Temple to inspect and cleanse his virgin Bride.  Matt 25:1  https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matt+25%3A1&version=CSB

However, the tide constantly changes in Watchtower literature. Note in the following quote how the holy place/temple being treaded upon has nothing to do with the ten virgins and the Bridegroom in the following WT statement, but is labeled as CHRISTENDOM! Here, the WT turns full circle to explain the “abomination”/disgusting thing/Man of Lawlessness, which as we’ve seen in Ezek 44:6-9 means “foreigners”, or “Gentiles”, taking over God’s House/Temple (Eph 2:20-22)…


In speaking of Matt 24:15, WT states:

“In the first fulfillment, the “standing in a holy place” (Matt 24:15) occurred in 66 C.E. when the Roman (GENTILE) army (“the disgusting thing”) attacked Jerusalem and its temple (a place holy in the eyes of the Jews). In the larger fulfillment, the “standing” will occur when the UNITED NATIONS (the modern-day “disgusting thing”) attacks CHRISTENDOM (which is holy in the eyes of nominal Christians) and the rest of Babylon the Great. The same attack is described at Revelation 17:16-18. That event will be the beginning of the great tribulation. Wt 13/7/15 pp 3-8 par 6   The word, GENTILE is my addition to this quote.

Jerusalem’s temple was not only a place holy in the eyes of the Jews, but to the Father.  Why would the second fulfillment be anything other than relating to the living Temple of God, and His spiritual “Jews”?  God’s Word is consistent in Truth. 

Watchtower’s noted scripture of Revelation 17:16-18 speaks of “Babylon’s” Harlot daughters/false prophet and the Wild Beast of Revelation 13, which conquers the holy ones.  Rev 13:1; 17:9,12  It is the same beast that has come out of the abyss and “kills” the “two witnesses” - the faithful virgins of Christ - for their testimony to truth.  Rev 11:1-3,7; 17:5; 12:17 https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev+17%3A16-18%3B13%3A1%3B+17%3A9%2C12%3B+11%3A1-3%2C7%3B+17%3A5%3B+12%3A17++&version=CSB

The Wild Beast: “It began to speak blasphemies against God: to blaspheme His name and His dwelling — those who dwell in heaven. And it was permitted to wage war against the saints and to conquer them. It was also given authority over every tribe, people, language, and nation.”  Rev 13:5-7

Here we see more evidence describing the Man of Lawlessness sitting with authority over the Temple/”saints” of God….and all JWs.

 “When you see Jerusalem surrounded by ARMIES, then recognize that its desolation has come near.”  Luke 21:20

When you see those under the promised covenant “New Jerusalem”/Temple of God surrounded by the army of “Gentiles” that Revelation 11:1,2 and Dan 11:31 speaks of, then recognize its desolation has come near. Gal 4:26; Rev 12:1  https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Gal+4%3A26%3B+Rev+12%3A1&version=CSB

There is only ONE Man of Lawlessness/disgusting thing today – a “Gentile” army/abomination in God’s Temple that has been put in charge of God’s sanctuary as Ezek 44:8 describes.  It thrives where this apostasy exists – the organization.  Elders “tread” on the Temple of God. Elders have been granted authority by a Wicked Slave to “keep charge” of God’s sanctuary/Temple, in the role of priest. They "keep charge" of the anointed Temple through their submission to comply with the elder's man-given authority to rule over them.   Matt 24:48-51 The Man of Lawless has been revealed, in true form and “machination” of Satan.    This false priesthood replaces God’s selected priesthood, to the blasphemous point that God’s holy people must obey them, or be “killed” – disfellowshipped.   John 16:2; Rev 11:3,7  https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matt+24%3A48-51%3B+Ezek+44%3A8%3BJohn+16%3A2%3B+Rev+11%3A3%2C7++&version=CSB


Every defining element of the word “tread” listed above, explains and reveals how the Man of Lawlessness/elder body treads upon God’s holy priesthood at the approval of a Wicked Slave.   

Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to him, “How long will it take for the vision to be fulfilled—the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, the REBELLION that causes desolation, the SURRENDER OF THE SANCTUARY and the trampling underfoot of the Lord’s people?”   Dan 8:13

This is clarified by WT statements that I have repeatedly posted on this forum:

“Representing (more specifically, “the giving over of” or “surrendering of”) the royal priesthood (“sanctuary”) are appointed elders, who serve in positions of responsibility in congregations of Jehovah’s people around the earth. These men deserve our respect and wholehearted support, whether they are of the anointed or not.  RATHER THAN CHALLENGE THEIR AUTHORITY (a false authority or “rebellion”), we truly appreciate our hardworking elders!”  Wt 02/8/1

Did the anointed priesthood have any say in this arrangement?  Only the governing body has authorized their army with authority over God’s Temple. Matt 24:48-51; Rev 13:14,15 As long as the authentic priesthood remains under this false rule, they have surrendered their ability to offer independent “daily sacrifices” of praise.  Dan 8:12  https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matt+24%3A48-51%3B+Rev+13%3A14%2C15%3B+Dan+8%3A12+&version=CSB

Review how your Watchtower articles exalt the elder body by brazenly using scriptures that apply to the anointed body of Christ…

“We will be helped to obey and HONOR those taking the lead if we remember that God himself has provided the elders.”   w89 9/15 pp. 20-25

 …and then “treat with insult and contempt” the anointed, “holy people” of God. 

“If we give anointed ones too much PRAISE and attention, we would embarrass them. Or even worse, we could cause them to become proud.”  Wt 16/1 pp. 20-26 (please see paragraph 6)

Do you realize that a synonym for the word “HONOR” is “PRAISE”?  You are expected to praise and honor men who have robbed God of His daily sacrifices! Mal 3:8,9   Can you see how your obedience to the organization requires that you must leave the anointed alone and focus your attention on the MAN OF LAWLESSNESS?  Rev 13:2,4  https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev+13%3A2%2C4&version=CSB

Splane continues in his video stating the Bridegroom comes also in the Great Tribulation.  He says:

“But the bridegroom didn’t come just then.  When does he come?  At the Great Tribulation.  How do we know.  We know, because in Matt 24 and 25 there are eight references of the coming of the Master and each and every one of them refer to the Great Tribulation.   So we’re talking about the Master returning, the Bridegroom coming at the GT and will he find the anointed with their lamps burning, or will they have let their light go out.  That is the simple question there.”

It really isn’t so simple.  Each Watchtower date taught as the Master’s return was centered around false forecasts of the Great Tribulation and Armageddon. David Splane has saturated your mind with convoluted teachings about the coming of the Bridegroom; enough to give anyone a headache. Watchtower is hiding the true identity of the Man of Lawlessness by using the United Nations and Christendom as the scapegoat. This is the work of Satan, to disguise his plan of destruction against the anointed of God, by fabricating a lie and calling it “truth”.  2 Thess 2:9-12 This great “machination to thwart the preaching of the (TRUE) gospel” is why only a symbolic “five” virgins enter the Marriage Feast. Matt 25:8-10   https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Thess+2%3A9-12%3B+Matt+25%3A8-10&version=CSB

The ‘rising up’ (Dan 11:31 ) of the abomination/ disgusting thing that desecrates God’s Temple has been a gradual process accomplished through the two Beasts of Revelation 13. Rev 16:13-15   https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Dan+11%3A31%3B+Rev+16%3A13-15&version=CSB

It is NOW, that “a herald in the distance” announces the coming of the Bridegroom. Matt 17:11; Mal 3:1   https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matt+17%3A11%3B+Mal+3%3A1+&version=CSB

Did you notice how Splane doesn’t address who the herald could be?

It is NOW that the Great Tribulation and Armageddon are at full roar. Outside the city gone “apostate”, the faithful virgins who were “killed” (disfellowshipped) for ‘shedding forth’ their light of truth are unafraid to offer their daily sacrifices before the one true God. Rev 11:3,7 There is no Gentile force to contend with, robbing them of eternal life in Christ. Matt 10:18-22,39 Instead of buying spiritual provisions from a wicked “House Steward”, they prefer to acquire “refined gold” from their one true Master, Jesus Christ. These virgins have realized and admitted their idolatrous sins to an idol/organization, and beg to be cleansed of all lies, by submitting to Christ’s refining words of Truth.  Rev 13:16,17; Rev 3:18; Hos 6:1; Mal 3:2-5    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev+11%3A3%2C7%3B+Matt+10%3A18-22%2C39%3B+Rev+13%3A16%2C17%3B+Rev+3%3A18%3B+Hos+6%3A1%3B+Mal+3%3A2-5++++&version=CSB

If you return to Watchtower’s sited scripture about Matt 24:15 above, and where they site Rev 17:16-18, you will soon see further action of the Man of Lawlessness/elder body collaborating with anointed “ten horns/kings”:

             (Rev 17:12,13 -  https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=+Rev+17%3A12%2C13&version=CSB)

“they will hate the PROSTITUTE (FALSE PROPHET of Rev 13:11). They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire.  For God has put it into their hearts to accomplish his purpose by agreeing to hand over to the BEAST their royal authority, until God’s words are fulfilled. 18 The woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth.”  (“kings of the earth” are the anointed ones - Rev 1:5; 5:9,10)   https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev+1%3A5%3B+5%3A9%2C10&version=CSB

The governing body/Harlot/false prophet is about to go down – DISFELLOWSHIPPED.  Yet, before that time, if we perceive the “abomination”/”disgusting thing” standing in the “holy place”, we are to “flee to the mountains” – the symbolic “mountains”, and restored “Temple” of God.  Matt 24:15,16; Luke 21:21,22; Isa 43:1; Isa chapter 2  https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matt+24%3A15%2C16%3B+Luke+21%3A21%2C22%3B+Isa+43%3A1&version=CSB

Going back to the initial quote from the WT leaders, remarking that the unfaithful virgins does not comprise a “large number”, scriptures give us a little insight regarding that number:

Israel’s Light will become a fire,
and its Holy One, a flame.
In one day it will burn and consume Assyria’s thorns and thistles.
He will completely destroy
the glory of its forests and orchards
as a sickness consumes a person.
19 The remaining trees of its forest
will be so few in number
that a child could count them.”  Isa 10:17-19

 “Assyria” – Joel 1:2-4; Rev 9:1-12; Rev 13:6,7,18; 2 Thess 2:3,4,7,8 (Matt 13:22; Luke 3:9)  https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Joel+1%3A2-4%3B+Rev+9%3A1-12%3B+Rev+13%3A6%2C7%2C18%3B+2+Thess+2%3A3%2C4%2C7%2C8%3BMatt+13%3A22%3B+Luke+3%3A9&version=CSB


“Trees” – Matt 3:10; John 15:16; Luke 21:29-31; Ezek 34:27; 47:6,7; Rev 22:1,2  https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matt+3%3A10%3B+John+15%3A16%3B+Luke+21%3A29-31%3B+Ezek+34%3A27%3B+47%3A6%2C7%3B+Rev+22%3A1%2C2&version=CSB


On that day the remnant of Israel and the survivors of the house of Jacob will no longer depend on the one who struck them, but they will faithfully depend on the Lord, the Holy One of Israel.

21 The remnant will return, the remnant of Jacob,
to the Mighty God.
22 Israel, even if your people were as numerous
as the sand of the sea,
only a remnant of them will return.
Destruction has been decreed;
justice overflows.
23 For throughout the land
the Lord God of Armies
is carrying out a destruction that was decreed.  Isa 10:20-23

The five wise virgins return to their Master, Christ – the “Mighty God” of Isa 9:6, and to the Father – Ps 50:1-6 

Pearl Doxsey:

“The Disgusting Thing”

“Discerning the Ten Virgins/Called, Chosen and Faithful”

“Christ’s Return, When?”

“The Constant Feature”

“More on Two Witnesses”










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They are fully content waiting to enter paradise. No, they are fully content believing the lies of the GB and Elders. It means they don't have to think for themselves.

I was determined to carefully consider all the things posted above, but I fell asleep, and woke up with reverse keyboard imprints on my forehead, and drool on the table top, and a series of "y"s in a

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Unfortunately neither doxsey or the WT org GB are right. It is possible that a significant part of the anointed will be foolish just as Jesus told. I believe what Jesus said. Because this is in line with other parabels he told. For example the parabels about the slaves who got minas. In those parabels one of three was condemned. 

And an other parabel is note-worthy in Luke12:

42  And the Lord said: “Who really is the faithful steward,* the discreet one,* whom his master will appoint over his body of attendants* to keep giving them their measure of food supplies at the proper time?+ 43  Happy is that slave if his master on coming finds him doing so! 44  I tell you truthfully, he will appoint him over all his belongings. 45  But if ever that slave should say in his heart, ‘My master delays coming,’ and starts to beat the male and female servants and to eat and drink and get drunk,+ 46  the master of that slave will come on a day that he is not expecting him and at an hour that he does not know, and he will punish him with the greatest severity and assign him a part with the unfaithful ones. 47  Then that slave who understood the will of his master but did not get ready or do what he asked* will be beaten with many strokes.+ 48  But the one who did not understand and yet did things deserving of strokes will be beaten with few. Indeed, everyone to whom much was given, much will be demanded of him, and the one who was put in charge of much will have more than usual demanded of him.+

So here we see 4 types of Jesus' slaves: 

The first one - a good one

The second one - a really bad one

The third one - understood but did not act accordingly, will be disciplined with many strokes

The fourth one - did not understand and did things deserving strokes, will be beaten with fewer strokes.


And I find it reasonable that the number 144000 is an exact number. 

If there will be 14,4 billion people on earth during the 1000 year reign, it would be in average 100 000 people for each of the 144 000 kings and priests to take care of.



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11 hours ago, Kosonen said:

It is possible that a significant part of the anointed will be foolish just as Jesus told. I believe what Jesus said.

I do agree.

11 hours ago, Kosonen said:

And I find it reasonable that the number 144000 is an exact number. 

If there will be 14,4 billion people on earth during the 1000 year reign, it would be in average 100 000 people for each of the 144 000 kings and priests to take care of.

Don’t you think your desire to calculate with numbers is right in harmony with the Watchtower; and where has that gotten them, but a catalog of failed calculations?  Are you counting “Israel”?    2 Sam 24:10

Isn’t it enough to accept what God said to Jacob?

 Jacob left Beersheba and set out for Harran. 11 When he reached a certain place, he stopped for the night because the sun had set. Taking one of the stones there, he put it under his head and lay down to sleep.12 He had a dream in which he saw a stairway resting on the earth, with its top reaching to heaven, and the angels of God were ascending and descending on it. 13 There above it stood the Lord, and he said: “I am the Lord, the God of your father Abraham and the God of Isaac. I will give you and your descendants the land on which you are lying. 14 Your descendants will be like the dust of the earth, and you will spread out to the west and to the east, to the north and to the south. All peoples on earth will be blessed through you and your offspring. 15 I am with you and will watch over you wherever you go, and I will bring you back to this land. I will not leave you until I have done what I have promised you.”  Gen 28:10-15

Who can fathom the Spirit of the Lord,
    or instruct the Lord as His counselor?
14 Whom did the Lord consult to enlighten Him,
    and who taught Him the right way?
Who was it that taught Him knowledge,
    or showed Him the path of understanding?  Isa 40:13,14

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I don't think those scriptures should be applied in that way. It is true that Abrahams offspring would be great in number. But that does not contradict that there will be a special kingly/priestly group composed of 144000. This number is repeated 3 times in Revelation to underscore that it is a literal number. 

And the fact is that it has not been easy to fill that number. Jesus spoke an illustration of that. There he told that many refused to come, despite how hard his messengers tried to invite. Jesus also spoke of a smal flock and Paul spoke of a full number of people coming in in Romans 11. So the number is predetermined. And you can not force someone to become anointed how much you wish. Most JW don't have that kind of spiritual drive. They are fully content waiting to enter paradise.


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On 11/18/2018 at 9:09 PM, Witness said:

If you return to Watchtower’s sited scripture about Matt 24:15 above, and where they site Rev 17:16-18, you will soon see further action of the Man of Lawlessness/elder body collaborating with anointed “ten horns/kings”:

I consistently spell "cite" as "site".  Very sorry.  

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On 11/20/2018 at 10:48 AM, Kosonen said:

don't think those scriptures should be applied in that way. It is true that Abrahams offspring would be great in number. But that does not contradict that there will be a special kingly/priestly group composed of 144000. This number is repeated 3 times in Revelation to underscore that it is a literal number. 

Have  you noticed how the phrase “a thousand” is frequently used in the Hebrew scriptures?  Could it really be that the numbers were so accurate to always compute to the exact number of a thousand?  Or, is there another significance to its meaning? 

 May the Lord, the God of your ancestors, increase you a thousand times and bless you as he has promised!   Deut 1:11

 You show love to thousands but bring the punishment for the parents’ sins into the laps of their children after them. Great and mighty God, whose name is the Lord Almighty  Jer 32:18

The chariots of God are tens of thousands
    and thousands of thousands;
    the Lord has come from Sinai into his sanctuary.  Ps 68:17

He remembers his covenant forever,
    the promise he made, for a thousand generations,  Ps 105:8

This is what the Sovereign Lord says to Israel:

“Your city that marches out a thousand strong
    will have only a hundred left;
your town that marches out a hundred strong
    will have only ten left.”  Amos 5:3

Better is one day in your courts
    than a thousand elsewhere;
I would rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God
    than dwell in the tents of the wicked.  Ps 84:10

The least of you will become a thousand,
    the smallest a mighty nation.
I am the Lord;
    in its time I will do this swiftly.”  Isa 60:22

These are just some examples where a thousand is an open-ended number, used to signify a large undetermined quantity. 

A thousand years in your sight
    are like a day that has just gone by,
    or like a watch in the night.  Ps 90:4

I think you can see that neither the day nor the thousand years here can be taken literally, but symbolic of a stretch of time and its meaning. 

But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand yearsand a thousand years are like a day.  2 Pet 3:8 

Regarding your theory that the number 144,000 is literal because it is mentioned three times in Revelation, how does this apply to the number 12?  Twelve is another number used throughout scripture and holds a deeper meaning than just the literal number. Does this make it a literal number in Revelation?

Rev 12:1 -  twelve stars represent the twelve tribes of Israel.  Does that mean that only 12 people of “Israel” will be part of the “144,000”?  A symbolic “12,000” from each tribe make up the full “Israel”. 

In Revelation 21 the Holy City is described having 12 gates, 12 angels, 12 foundations, 12 pearls, 12 apostles.  Does this make “New Jerusalem” a literal city? 

“The twelve gates were twelve pearls, each gate made of a single pearl.”  Rev 21:21

Does this mean a literal city will be coming down to earth with 12 literal gates made of literal pearls?

The 12 apostles, plus the prophets are the foundation of the TEMPLE, with Jesus as the chief cornerstone.  Each faithful living stone since the apostles, is sealed into it.  Eph 2:20

Notice what it does say about the Temple.

I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple23 The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp.  Rev 21:22,23

Yet, in Rev 3:12 it is said that the faithful “144,000” become a “pillar” in this Temple. They become one with Christ as his Bride and part of the Temple.  Rev 21:9-13 is describing the Bride AS the Holy City “coming down out of heaven”. 

The Bride/city is “measured”:

“The city was laid out like a square, as long as it was wide. He measured the city with the rod and found it to be 12,000 stadia in length, and as wide and high as it is long.”  Rev 21:16

“Long as it was wide”.  12X12=144

Add the symbolism of a “thousand” that consistently runs through scriptures as an immense undetermined number, and you have 144 thousand.


On 11/20/2018 at 10:48 AM, Kosonen said:

And you can not force someone to become anointed how much you wish. 

I don’t know why you are saying this, but I do agree.   The anointing is not the choice of the person, but of God, to either accept it by walking in the path of Christ while he was on earth, or reject in favor of “fleshly” desires.  Heb 9:15; Luke 4:1-13 




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5 hours ago, Witness said:

  I don’t know why you are saying this, but I do agree.   The anointing is not the choice of the person, but of God, to either accept it by walking in the path of Christ while he was on earth, or reject in favor of “fleshly” desires.  Heb 9:15; Luke 4:1-13 


Hi Witness, I thought that maybe you or doxsey wish that everybody gets the special anointment. And maybe you believe it is fully possible that more than 144 000 will be worthy of that. And that maybe motivetes you to take the number 144 000 merely symbolically. 

But if the contrary is more evident, that it is very hard even to get to fill that number 144000. Then maybe you would be more inclined to take that number literally. 

Revelation 14:4....These are the ones who keep following the Lamb no matter where he goes. These were bought from among mankind as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb, 5  and no deceit was found in their mouths; they are without blemish.

These specially chosen 144 000 follow Jesus the Lamb. That means they are not followers of men, like church leaders or followers of a Governing Body. And as the verse says, these 144000 are firstfruits to mature spiritually. And logically thanks to God's attention to these 144000 individuals they are the first to become holy. And these will serve as prists for the rest of mankind and help them heal spiritually.

And the 144 000 are said in the verse to be without blemish and have no deceit in their mouths. 

That are very high requirements and therefore it is hard to even fill a that big number as 144 000. 

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I was determined to carefully consider all the things posted above, but I fell asleep, and woke up with reverse keyboard imprints on my forehead, and drool on the table top, and a series of "y"s in a file, about a half million characters long... I guess.

It all boils down to "How credible are the opinions of those who know, or PRETEND to know the answers about ANY subject."

Fairy tales from a theologian can be almost always dismissed without even thinking ... but fairy tales from a genuine Fairy ... wings and all ... you probably want to pay more close attention.

1.)  How many times has whatever counselor you have been RIGHT in the past?

2.)  How many times has whatever counselor you have been WRONG in the past?

Would you put on a parachute this person has packed ... and jump out of an airplane, after he has asked you to leave your wallet with him?

I remember a prayer "Please God, save me from those people with the very best of intentions who try to rule my life, as right or wrong ... they intend to be rulers of my life!"

People with the very best of intentions have ruined more lives than invading armies, as they believe they have the blessings of God, and after they totally screw up your life, still have a free and clear conscience, knowing absolutely that the fault was yours.


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So back to the scripture about ten men clinging to the skirt of a Jew. A spiritual Jew of course.

I'll ask the silly question. Who really can we trust ?   Surely Jesus would make it clear as to whom we should follow ?

Just one more thing, totally different topic of course :) . Should we call Jesus by a different name now ?  Jesus was his name as human but now he is spirit. 

As for the 144,000 being "without blemish and have no deceit in their mouths. "  With God all things are possible... 

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On 11/23/2018 at 1:46 PM, JOHN BUTLER said:

So back to the scripture about ten men clinging to the skirt of a Jew. A spiritual Jew of course.

I'll ask the silly question. Who really can we trust ?   Surely Jesus would make it clear as to whom we should follow ?

Jesus went through towns and villages, teaching the people and making his way toward Jerusalem.  Someone asked him, “Sir, will just a few people be saved?”

Jesus answered them, “Do your best to go in through the narrow door; because many people will surely try to go in but will not be able.  Luke 13:22-24

And so I say to you: Ask, and you will receive; seek, and you will find; knock, and the door will be opened to you.  For those who ask will receive, and those who seek will find, and the door will be opened to anyone who knocks.  Would any of you who are fathers give your son a snake when he asks for fish? 12 Or would you give him a scorpion when he asks for an egg?  As bad as you are, you know how to give good things to your children. How much more, then, will the Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”  Luke 11:9-13

Yes, beg for knowledge; plead for insight.  Look for it as hard as you would for silver or some hidden treasure.  If you do, you will know what it means to fear the Lord and you will succeed in learning about God.   Prov 2:3-5

“Be on your guard against false prophets; they come to you looking like sheep on the outside, but on the inside they are really like wild wolves.  You will know them by what they do. Thorn bushes do not bear grapes, and briers do not bear figs.  A healthy tree bears good fruit, but a poor tree bears bad fruit A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a poor tree cannot bear good fruit.  And any tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown in the fire.  So then, you will know the false prophets by what they do.  Matt 7:15-20

The last symbolic two (meaning truth) “witnesses” or “trees” are exposing the Man of Lawlessness standing/ruling over the Temple of God; and they preach this “in sackcloth”.  1 Cor 3:16,17; Rev 11:1-3; Dan 8:12  They and their companions are declaring its “trampling” presence over God’s priesthood/Temple.  1 Pet 2:5,9; 1 Cor 3:16,17

If we discern this oppression, and the resulting end to the anointed “daily sacrifices” by the authoritative power over them, then Jesus said we are to “flee”.  Matt 24:16  There are two fulfillments of this prophesy, one soon after Jesus ascended into heaven and one during the end days when Jesus comes to inspects his Temple priests.  The call is to “get out”, away from the abomination – the rule of “Gentile” elders over the anointed priests and away from the Harlot/false prophet of Rev 13:11.   Rev 18:4-8


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