Jump to content

  1. Brother Rando

    Brother Rando

  2. The Librarian

    The Librarian

  • Similar Content

    • By 4Jah2me
      If the CCJW is going to be God's / Christ's chosen Organisation to bring humans through 
      Armageddon / Judgement Day
      What serious changes need to take place in it first ?
      As you know my feelings are that neither God nor Christ can use the CCJW as it is. But I am seriously trying to think on a more spiritual level so I'm trying not to be biased. By reading many comments on this forum I've noticed that even those JWs that resolve to stay firmly in the 'Org', still have some feelings of discontent. 
      So the question I'm asking is more to those JWs who are remaining 'faithful' to the CCJW and it's GB. 
      Do you see the need for big changes in the way the CCJW is run ?
      Do you really believe that God & Christ are happy with the CCJW as it is ?
      I am not deviating from my belief of a 'true Anointed' being 'raised up' in these 'last day', but as I've said before that 'true anointed' could well be within the CCJW.
      I'm keeping my mind 'open' to all manner of thoughts, whilst trying to, hopefully with God's guidance, find truth. 
      However, I am of the opinion that 'new light' via the GB, will not provide the answers or right direction that is needed. But that is just my personal opinion, and I may be proven wrong................
    • By The Librarian
      Part of a series on:
      The Last Hours of Jesus Christ - Phil Hayworth, CO
      Appreciating the Death of Jesus - Ciro Aulicino

      Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.
      Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.
      Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.
      Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.
      Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.

      Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.
      Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.

       
    • By Jack Ryan
      So at family worship my PIMI husband was talking about baptism with my son. He asked him when he would like to get baptized and my son said “Dad I’m not in any rush. Jesus was 29 when he got baptized”.
      I did not coach him or teach him this. I was just so thrilled that he is thinking more for himself and using logic.
      Also, what the hell was Jesus doing from age 10-30 before his ministry anyways?
      But dont think about Jesus getting himself and his family financially secured for 10 years before spending 3 preaching... that is thinking that is not tolerated by the borg!
    • By 4Jah2me
      I do hear occasionally on this forum, the expression of, (oh dear it's gone now), I'll say Basic beliefs, Foundation beliefs, of Jehovah's Witnesses. 
      My point being, when were those basic foundations started ?  Yes we have Russell and Rutherford et al. So who decided what was what and when ? 
      We have things like 'hell fire' eternal damnation' ' soul in continual punishment' etc. But who basically found the truth from God's word about 'The dead are conscious of nothing at all' ?
      Then we have the 'resurrection of the dead',  those being split into heavenly and earthly. Who decided these things from scriptures ? And when ? 
      It would probably take me 10 years, which I probably do not have left, to research all the things I wish to know. 
      So here is a question. From 1960, what new serious Bible knowledge do we have from those whom regard themselves as the F&DS or top of the tree ?
      What have they given to the congregation that is of extreme importance ?  BUT, more importantly what have they given that they haven't changed since giving it ? 
      So we've lost the 7,000 year creative days. We've lost Armageddon in 1975, We've lost no blood / replaced with blood fractions. We've lost the Superior Authorities as God and Christ, and probably lots more. BUT what important beliefs have we gained since 1960 ? What IMPORTANT SCRIPTURAL input have those at the top made since 1960 ? 
       
    • By The Librarian
      The Holy Bible > List of Biblical Persons > Jesus Christ

      Jesus (/ˈdʒiːzəs/; Greek: Ἰησοῦς Iesous; 
      Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. . ( Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ) to 33 C.E.), also referred to as Jesus of Nazareth, is the Son of Jehovah God and the awaited Messiah of the  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. .The name Jesus (Gr., I·e·sous′) corresponds to the Hebrew name Jeshua (or, in fuller form, Jehoshua), meaning “Jehovah Is Salvation.” The name itself was not unusual, many men being so named in that period. He is also referred to as Jesus Christ, from the Greek Khri·stos′, the equivalent of the Hebrew Ma·shi′ach(Messiah), and means “Anointed One.” Our Modern day, most widely used Gregorian calendar uses the terms B.C. (Before Christ) and A.D. (Anno Domini = Year of our Lord in Latin) basing our current year of 2014 as the year since his supposed birth according to a medieval estimate.

      The person who became known as Jesus Christ did not begin life here on earth. In heaven he was known as Michael the Archangel. He himself spoke of his prehuman heavenly life. (Joh 3:13; 6:38, 62; 8:23, 42, 58) John 1:1, 2 gives the heavenly name of the one who became Jesus, saying: “In the beginning the Word [Gr., Lo′gos] was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god [“was divine,” AT; Mo; or “of divine being,”Böhmer; Stage (both German)]. This one was in the beginning with God.” Since Jehovah is eternal and had no beginning (Ps 90:2; Re 15:3), the Word’s being with God from “the beginning” must here refer to the beginning of Jehovah’s creative works. This is confirmed by other texts identifying Jesus as “the firstborn of all creation,” “the beginning of the creation by God.” ( Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ;  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ;  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ) Thus the Scriptures identify the Word (Jesus in his prehuman existence) as God’s first creation, His firstborn Son. This is direct opposition to the popular and later teaching of the Trinity by the  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. .

      Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.

      That Jehovah was truly the Father or Life-Giver to this firstborn Son and, hence, that this Son was actually a creature of God is evident from Jesus’ own statements. He pointed to God as the Source of his life, saying, “I live because of the Father.” According to the context, this meant that his life resulted from or was caused by his Father, even as the gaining of life by dying men would result from their faith in Jesus’ ransom sacrifice.—Joh 6:56, 57.

      Logically, it was to this firstborn Son that Jehovah said: “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness.” (Ge 1:26) All these other created things were not only created “through him” but also “for him,” as God’s Firstborn and the “heir of all things.”— Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ; Heb 1:2.

      Jesus began his life billions of years before the first human ever existed (Compare Mic 5:2.) and was used by his father in the creation of all of the universe (Joh 1:3;  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ) and the other angels and spirit creatures in heaven (Da 7:9, 10;  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ),

      Jesus was conceived by  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.  being transferred from his heavenly life as Michael the Archangel into the womb of a virgin named Mary who was engaged to Joseph. He was born in Bethlehem as a human baby  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. . A  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.  guiding astrologers to pay tribute to him.
      He was later raised in Nazareth where  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. .  
       
       
      See also:
      Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.   Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.  
      The Memorial of the Death of Jesus Christ
    • By Witness
      I found this on another forum.  It is a photo from the jw org online glossary.  Does any JW have an opinion as to why "Jesus" is left out of the glossary?   "Christ", as well as "Messiah" are both noted.  (Matt 24:24; Mark 13:22 NKJV) (Matt 24:24; Mark 13:22 NIV)  Yet, "Jesus", whose name means "YHVH is salvation", or, "Yah will save", isn't listed.  Also, both "Emmanuel"/"Immanuel", which means "God is with us" are not listed.     (Matt 1:23)
      Here is the link: 
      Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.
    • By Jack Ryan
      As the title says, where did the other 23 chromosomes come from for Jesus? Because Mary had no way to give him a Y chromosome, making him a boy, without a guy’s sperm.
    • Guest Kurt
      By Guest Kurt
      Was Jesus Crucified on a Cross NO..mp4
       
    • By Jack Ryan
      (I wonder if Keanu Reeves actually said this or if some meme maker just posted this over his photo?)
    • By Jesus.defender
      BOTH the FATHER and the SON HAVE the SAME 119 ATTRIBUTES, CLAIMS and MAJESTY.
      ‘I am Jehovah - that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another.’ (Isaiah 62:8).
      The glory of these 119 attributes are jointly owned by the Father and the Son, and nobody else.
      Jesus Christ is Jehovah God, equally with the Father, because both the Father and Son alone
      have the following attributes:
      1. both are to be honoured equally (John 5:23)
      2. both are the I AM (Exodus 3:14-15; John 8:24,58)
      3. both are the Mighty God (Isaiah 10:20,21; Jer 32:18; Psalm 50:1; Isaiah 9:6; Gen 49:24)
      4. both own the same throne (Psalm 45:6,7; Hebrews 1:8; Revelation 22:1,3)
      5. both accept worship (Exodus 34:14; I Chronicles 16:29; Hebrews 1:6; Matthew 28:9)
      6. both laid the foundation of the earth (Psalm 102:24-27; Isaiah 48:13; Hebrews 1:10-12)
      7. One God has created mankind (Mal. 2:10; Prov. 16:4; Isaiah 44:24; Col 1:16; John 1:3)
      8. both are the Shepherd (Psalm 80;1; Gen 49:24; John 10:11; Hebrews 13:20; I Peter 5:4)
      9. both are from Everlasting (Psalm 90:2; Habakkuk 1:12; Micah 5:2; Hebrews 7:3).
      10. both are the First and Last (Isaiah 44:6; Revelation 1:17,18; Rev. 2:8; See p.54).)
      11. both are the Alpha and Omega (Revelation 1:8; 21:5-7; 22:13-16; See p.54)
      12. both come and Reward (Isaiah 40:10; 62:11; Revelation 22:12)
      13. both are unchangeable (Malachi 3:6: Hebrews 13:8)
      14. both have unsearchable riches (Romans 11:33; Ephesians 3:8)
      15. both are the Holy One (Isaiah 43:15; Acts 3:14)
      16. both are omnipresent and fill all things (Psalm 139:7; Jer. 23:24; Eph. 4:10; John 3:13)
      17. both are omniscient (Psalm 147:5; Prov. 14:3; John 21:17; John 16:30; Colossians 2:3)
      18. both are omnipotent (Genesis 17:1; Matthew 28:18; Hebrews 1:3)
      19. both are eternal (Deuteronomy 33:27; Hebrews 7:3; Micah 5:2)
      20. both own the everlasting Kingdom (Psalm 145:13; Daniel 7:14; II Peter 1:11)
      21. both are Lord of all (Psalm 103:19; Matthew 11:25; Acts 10:36)
      22. both are the only Saviour (Isaiah 43:11; Titus 1:3,4; Philippians 3:20; II Peter 1:1; 3:18; Luke 2:11; Hebrews 5:9; Acts 4:12)
      23. both are the Truth (Deuteronomy 32:4; John 14:6)
      24. both are sinless (Deuteronomy 32:4; Hebrews 4:15)
      25. both are in the beginning (Genesis 1:1; John 1:1)
      26. both God and the Son are the Judge (Psalm 82:8; John 5:22), but the Father is not the Judge (John 5:22 ‘The Father judgeth no man’).
      27. both are our Hope (Psalm 39:7; I Timothy 1:1)
      28. both shelter believers under their wings (Psalm 91:2,4; Matthew 23:37)
      29. both are our Redeemer (Psalm 130:7,8; Isaiah 44:6; Galatians 3:13; Titus 2:14)
      30. the glory of both was seen by Isaiah (Isaiah 6:3,5; John 12:41)
      31. both are the Rock (Deuteronomy 32:3,4,18; Psalm 18:31; I Corinthians 10:4)
      32. both are to be looked to for salvation (Isaiah 45:22; John 1:29; John 6:40)
      33. to both shall every knee bow and every tongue confess (Isaiah 45:23; Philippians 2:10; Romans 14:10,11)
      34. the enemies of both shall perish (Psalm 92:9; Philippians 3:18,19)
      35. both send the Holy Spirit (Joel 2:28; John 16:7)
      36. to both shall all men come (Psalm 65:2; Isaiah 45:24; John 12:32)
      37. both forgive sins (Exodus 34:7; Mark 2:5,7; Colossians 3:13)
      38. both blot out sin (Isaiah 43:25; Hebrews 1:3; I John 1:7)
      39. both still storms (Psalm 107:29; Matthew 8:26)
      40. both own the Holy Spirit (Matthew 10:20; Romans 8:9)
      41. both seek the lost (Ezekiel 34:16; Luke 19:10)
      42. to both are applied 10 aspects of the Lord’s Prayer (Matthew 6:9-13; see page 954)
      43. both receive believers to glory (Psalm 73:24; John 14:3)
      44. both are our One Master (Malachi 1:6; Matthew 23:8,10)
      45. both are served by believers (Deuteronomy 10:20; Colossians 3:24)
      46. both lead believers to living waters (Psalm 23:2; Revelation 7:17)
      47. both correct believers (Proverbs 3:12; Revelation 3:19)
      48. both prepare a place for believers in heaven (Hebrews 11:16; John 14:2)
      49. both are all in all (I Corinthians 15:28; Colossians 3:11)
      50. both are known by believers (Galatians 4:9; Philippians 3:10; John 17:3)
      51. both are cleaved to by believers (Deuteronomy 10:20; John 15:4)
      52. both are the light of the world (Psalm 27:1; John 8:12)
      53. both are the Light of the New Jerusalem (Isaiah 60:19,20; Revelation 21:23)
      54. both give eternal life (Psalm 36:9; John 10:28)
      55. both are called ‘My Lord and my God’ (Psalm 35:22,23; John 20:28)
      56. both are our Righteousness (Isaiah 45:24; I Corinthians 1:30; Jeremiah 23:5,6)
      57. both have the same voice as of many waters (Ezekiel 43:2; Revelation 1:15)
      58. both are witnessed to by believers (Isaiah 43:10; Acts 1:8)
      59. both own the peace given to believers (Philippians 4:7; John 14:27)
      60. both own the gospel (I Thessalonians 2:2; Romans 1:16)
      61. both give saving grace (Titus 2:11; Acts 15:11)
      62. both are our peace (Judges 6:24; Ephesians 2:14)
      63. both are pierced and looked upon (Zechariah 12:10; John 19:37)
      64. both sanctify believers (Exodus 31:13; I Corinthians 6:11)
      65. both give victory to believers (Psalm 98:1; I Corinthians 15:57)
      66. both heal people (Exodus 15:26; Matthew 9:35)
      67. both equally own the churches (I Corinthians 15:9; Romans 16:16; I and II Thess. 1:1)
      68. both own the Kingdom (Matthew 6:33; Rev. 11:15).
      69. both are glorified by the Gentiles (Isaiah 24:15; II Thessalonians 1:12; Matthew 12:21)
      70. both own the Day of the Lord (Isaiah 13:6; Philippians 1:6; II Thessalonians 2:2)
      71. both give grace to believers (Romans 5:15; Colossians 1:6; II Cor. 8:9; Galatians 6:18)
      72. both own the same glory (Romans 5:2; II Corinthians 8:23)
      73. both own the same love (John 5:42; II Corinthians 5:14)
      74. both own the same Word (Psalm 119:11; I Thessalonians 2:13; Colossians 3:16)
      75. both own salvation (Luke 3:6; Jonah 2:9; Acts 4:12; II Timothy 2:10)
      76. both were served equally by Paul (Titus 1:1; Romans 1:1);and by James (James 1:1)
      77. both own the commandments (I John 5:3; John 14:15)
      78. both had their way prepared by John the Baptist (Isaiah 40;3; Mark 1:1-3)
      79. both search all hearts (Psalm 139:1; Revelation 2:23)
      80. both own the same flock (I Peter 5:2; John 21:15,16)
      81. both ascend on high, lead captivity captive, and give gifts to men (Psalm 68:17,18; Ephesians 4:7-10)
      82. both are like a Bridegroom (Isaiah 62:5; Mark 2:19,20)
      83. both receive the glory of God alone forever and ever (Isaiah 42:8; Galatians 1:4,5; I Peter 5:10,11; II Peter 3:18; Hebrews 13:21; I Peter 4:11; Revelation 1:5,6)
      84. both are the source of fruit (Hosea 14:8; John 15:5)
      85. both are our source of strength (Psalm 119:28; Philippians 4:13)
      86. both give rest for our souls (Jeremiah 6:16; Matthew 11:29)
      87. both shall appear at Christ’s return (Psalm 102:16; Zechariah 14:3,4,5; Titus 2:13)
      88. both will come to earth (Isaiah 40:10; Revelation 22:7,12,20)
      89. both are to be trusted in (Jeremiah 17:7; Ephesians 1:12; John 14:1)
      90. both are our King (Isaiah 6:5; 33:22; Revelation 17:14; 19:16; I Timothy 6:14,15)
      91. both will wound their enemies’ heads (Psalm 68:21; 110:6)
      92. both take vengeance (Romans 12:19; II Thessalonians 1:7,8)
      93. both will be opposed by the Antichrist’s armies (Isaiah 34:22; Revelation 19:19)
      94. both will fight against the Antichrist’s armies at Armageddon (Zechariah 14:3; Revelation 19:11,13,21)
      95. both will destroy death (Isaiah 25:8; II Timothy 1:10).
      96. both receive the faith of believers (I Thessalonians 1:8; Galatians 3:26)
      97. both are our life (Deuteronomy 30:20; Colossians 3:4)
      98. both are to be prayed to (Matthew 6:9; Acts 7:59)
      99. both raised up Christ (Acts 2:32; John 2:19,21)
      100.both own all of the other (John 16:15)
      101.both enter the east gate of Jerusalem (Ezekiel 44:1,2; Luke 19:37-45)
      102.the man on the throne in Ezekiel 1:26 is identified as the God of Israel in Ezek 10:20
      103.both names are placed on the same level in the baptism formula (Matthew 28:19)
      104.both fellowship equally with believers (I John 1:3).
      105.both comfort believers (Isaiah 66:13; Philippians 2:1).
      106.both receive doxologies of worship in heaven (Revelation 5:8-10; 5:11,12; 5:13,14).
      107.both jointly send grace and peace to the churches (Romans 1:7).
      108.both the love of the Father and love of the Son are an equal privilege given to us.(John 14:21)
      109.both jointly declare themselves to be Jehovah, “I am the first,& I am the last”(Isaiah 44:6)
      110.both come to his temple, ‘the Lord shall suddenly come to his temple.’(Malachi 3:1; Mat 21:13)
      111.both are the King of Israel (Isaiah 44:6; John 1:49).
      112. both can be blasphemed (God-Rom.2:24; HS-Luke 12:10; Christ-Luke 22:65; Acts 13:45; 18:5,6; 26:9,11)
      113.both are always with all believers (Matthew 28:20; 2 Corinthians 13:14).
      114.both are the one lawgiver (God-Rom.7:22; Christ-Gal.6:2; HS-Rom.8:2; James 4:12).
      115.both have the same face (Revelation 22:3,4)
      116.both have the same Name (Revelation 22:3,4)
      117.both own the same servants (Revelation 22:3)
      118.both are the Temple of the New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:22)
      119.Heavens are the work of thy hands (Psalm 102:24-27; Hebrews 1:10-12)

      Since both Jesus and the Father have these same attributes, both are Jehovah God.
      There are not 2 Gods, but One God in 3 persons. One who has these attributes must be God.
      The Lord’s Prayer is devoted to worshipping the Father. Jesus conceals His personal glory
      in this prayer as seen by other Scriptures which are just as true of Christ as the Lord’s Prayer
      is of the Father.
    • By JOHN BUTLER
      "All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness,"
      2 Timothy 3 v 16
      Was this in it's way a small prophecy ?                 
      The 2nd book of Timothy was written 65 C.E.  However 1,2,3, John and Revelation were written much later.
      So we have two points, 1. The writings were not complete when Paul wrote that information. 2, The Bible had not been constructed so no idea would have been formed as to what the Bible would contain. 
      Were there other writings ? Would they be considered as Scripture? 
      It seems that Paul was inspired to write that "All scripture is inspired.... " 
       
    • By Jesus.defender
      Biblical Jesus Vs. Mormon Jesus.
      Simply believing in someone named Jesus means NOTHING unless we are talking about the historic, Biblical Jesus.
      The apostle Paul warns us in 2 Corinthians 11:4 — there are some who preach a different Jesus.
      - The Bible teaches that Jesus has always existed as God (John 1:1). Mormons see Jesus as someone who worked His way up to godhood.  In fact, to Mormons, Jesus is merely one in purpose with God the Father; whereas the Bible declares that the Father and the Son are also one in essence (cf. Phil. 2:6) — that they are both equally God and members of the Holy Trinity.
      - The Bible says Jesus was begotten by the Holy Spirit. Luke 1:34-5. Is. 7:14. Matt. 1:18,20.  Mormons see Jesus as being CREATED by sexual relations between God the father and mary.  "The birth of the Savior was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood---was begotten of his Father as we were of our fathers" (Journal of Discourses vol.8, p.115); and "when the Virgin Mary conceived the child Jesus, the Father had begotten him in his own likeness [flesh and blood]. He was not begotten by the Holy Ghost" (Journal of Discourses, vol.1, p.50). "I will say that I was naturally begotten; so was my father, and also my Savior Jesus Christ...he is the first begotten of his father in the flesh, and there was nothing unnatural about it" (Journal of Discourses vol.8, p.211); "Now remember from this time forth, and for ever, that Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy Ghost" (Journal of Discourses, vol.1, p.51). Joseph Fielding Smith wrote: "The birth of the Savior was a natural occurrence unattended by any degree of mysticism, and the Father God was the literal parent of Jesus in the flesh as well as in the spirit" (Religious Truths Defined, p.44). Bruce McConkie (LDS apostle) states: "Christ was begotten by an Immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers" (Mormon Doctrine, p. 547, 1979).Carfred Broderick (Mormon author) writes: "God is a procreating personage of flesh and bone...latter-day prophets have made it clear that despite what it says in Matthew 1:20, the Holy Ghost was not the father of Jesus...The Savior was fathered by a personage of flesh and bone" (Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought, Autumn, 1967, p.100-101).
      - Mormons see Jesus as a polygamist. Apostle Orson Hyde: "…Jesus Christ was married at Cana of Galilee... Mary, Martha, and others were his wives ... he begat children" (Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, p.210). Jedediah M. Grant: "Jesus was the bridegroom at the marriage of Cana of Galilee, and he told them what to do... Now there was actually a marriage; and if Jesus was not the bridegroom on that occasion, please tell who was. If any man can show this, and prove that it was not the Savior of the world, then I will acknowledge I am in error. We say it was Jesus Christ who was married, to be brought into the relation whereby he could see his seed, before he was crucified" (Journal of Discourses, vol.2, p.82). Orson Hyde: "It will be borne in mind that once on a time, there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and on a careful reading of that transaction, it will be discovered that no less a person than Jesus Christ was married on that occasion. If he was never married, his intimacy with Mary and Martha, and the other Mary also whom Jesus loved, must have been highly unbecoming and improper to say the best of it" (Journal of Discourses, vol.4, p.259). Orson Pratt: "We have now clearly shown that God the Father had a plurality of wives, one or more being in eternity, by whom He begat our spirits as well as the spirit of Jesus His First Born... We have also proved most clearly that the Son followed the example of his Father, and became the great Bridegroom to whom kings' daughters and many honorable wives are to be married" (The Seer, p. 172).
      - The Bible says that Jesus created ALL things. This includes lucifer. Gen. 3:1, Ez. 28:13,15,17Mormons see Jesus as a brother of satan, not His brother.
      - Mormons see Jesus was procreated as a spirit child of the Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother and later conceived physically by the Heavenly Father and an earthly mother: The Ensign, Jan. 1989, pp.28-29; Come Unto Christ by Ezra Taft Benson, p.4). Bruce McConkie states: "Christ the Word, the Firstborn, had of course attained unto the status of Godhood while yet in pre-existence" (What Mormons Think of Christ, p.36).
      Bruce McConkie continues: "He is the Firstborn of the Father. By obedience and devotion to the truth he attained that pinnacle of intelligence which ranked him as a God, as the Lord Omnipotent, while yet in his pre-existent state" (Mormon Doctrine, 1966, pg. 129).
      Orson Pratt: "God the Father had a plurality of wives, one or more being in eternity, by whom He begat our spirits as well as the spirit of Jesus His First Born" (The Seer, p. 172).
      "Jesus Christ is not the Father of the spirits who have taken or yet shall take bodies upon this earth, for He is one of them. He is The Son, as they are sons and daughters of Elohim." (Encyclopedia of Mormonism, vol.4, Appendix 4).
    • By Jesus.defender
      The Trinity and Bible Proofs that Jesus Christ is God
      1. Matthew 28:17-20 “they worshipped him”, “All power is given to me”, “I am with you always” and “baptizing them in the name (one God) of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost” = Trinity.
      2. In Matthew 3:1-3, Jesus Christ fulfils Isaiah 40:3 to ‘Prepare the way of Jehovah’ and our God.
      3. John 1:1 “the word was God” (KJV, NIV), not ‘a god’ (NWT). a) Isaiah 44:8 ‘Is there a God beside me?’ b) The absence of the article before “theos” (God) identifies “word” as the subject (Colwell’s rule)Ans855
      ‘The subject is identified by the article (ho logos) and the predicate (theos) without it.’ AT Robertson 5,4.
      John did not use the word for “Godlike or a lesser god” (theios) to describe Jesus, but used “theos” (God).
      All early writers disagree with JWs. (Irenaeus,Theophilus, Clement,Tertullian, Origen, Cyprian, Tatian).
      All modern Greek experts disagree with JWs. (Zodhiates, AT Robertson, Wuest, Vine, Vincent, Mantey)
      4. John 1:3 “All things were made by him” Malachi 2:10 “Hath not one God created us?” Jesus is Creator.
      5. John 3:13 “Son of man which is in heaven.” Jesus is omnipresent (on earth and in heaven at same time)
      6. John 4:42 “Christ, the Saviour of the world.” Isaiah 43:11 “Jehovah; beside me there is no saviour.”
      7. John 5:18 “said God was his Father, making himself equal with God”. John believed it and quoted it.
      8. John 5:23 “all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father” Do you honour the Son as God?
      9. John 6:46 “Not that any man hath seen the Father.” Who did OT saints see who they said was God?Is6:5
      10. John 8:24 “If ye believe not that I am, ye shall die in your sins.” Jehovah is “I am” in Exodus 3:1-14.
      11. John 8:58,59 “Before Abraham was, I am. They took up stones to cast at him.” Jesus said He is God.
      12. John 10:30 “I and my Father are One. They took up stones to stone him.” No stoning if agree with God.
      13. John 10:33 “thou being a man, makest thyself God. They sought again to take him (39)”. Why?
      14. John 16:15 “All things that the Father hath are mine:” All the Father’s attributes as God are Christ’s.
      15. John 17:5 “the glory which I had with thee before the world was.” Isaiah 42:8 “I am Jehovah: my glory will I not give to another.” Jesus is Jehovah because he alone shares Jehovah’s exclusive glory.
      16. John 20:28 “Thomas said unto him (Jesus), My Lord and my God.” No rebuke for blasphemy or error.
      17. Acts 20:28 “Feed the church of God, which he (God) hath purchased with his own blood.” Jesus =God
      18. I Cor. 1:2 “all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ.” Prayer to Jesus makes him God.
      19. I Corinthians 15:47 ‘the second man is the Lord from heaven’ This is Jesus. No man is from heaven.
      20. II Corinthians 13:14 is the Apostolic Benediction:“The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.” (II Corinthians 13:14).
      Why is there a change in the order of the persons of the Trinity, compared to Matthew 28:19, if not to show that in this Trinity none is before or after the other, and none is better than another?
      21. Philippians 2:6 “Who being in the form of God (in His pre-incarnate state Christ had the form of God) thought it not robbery to be equal with God.” (a prize to be held on to, not a prize to be won. AT Robertson).
      22. Colossians 2:9 “In him (Christ) dwells all the fullness (exhausts the limits) of the Godhead bodily.”
      23. I Thes 4:14 “them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.” Jesus returns as God at rapture.
      24. I Timothy 3:16 “God was manifest in the flesh.” Jesus is God the Son conceived in Mary.
      25. Titus 2:13 “the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ.” Granville-Sharp rule: Jesus is God and Saviour.
      26. Hebrews 1:6 “Let all the angels of God worship him.” Only worship God. Matt 4:10, Ps97:7 Son is God
      27. Hebrews 1:8 “To the Son he saith, ‘Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever’” Psalm 45:6,7. Son is God.
      28. Hebrew 1:10 “And (to the Son he saith), Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:.thou art the same.” Son is unchangeable creator. Ps102:24
      29. Hebrews 1:13 To which of the angels said he, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? 35
      30. I John 5:7 “There are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.” 
      The heavenly and earthly witnesses in v.7,8 are confirmed in v.9 by God and men.
      The masculine article (oi) for “that” in v.7 is derived from the masculine nouns “Father and Word” in v.7.
      31. Revelation 1:17,18 “I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth and was dead;” Jesus = first and last.
      Revelation 1:11 “I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last:” Jesus = first and last = Alpha and Omega.
      Revelation 22:12,13 “I come quickly; I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last.” Jesus=Alpha & Omega.
      Revelation 1:8 “I am Alpha and Omega, the Almighty.” Jesus = first & last = Alpha & Omega =Almighty
      32. Revelation 22:3 “the throne of God and of the Lamb.” Both God and the Lamb equally own the throne.
      Revelation 22:3 “his servants shall serve him:” Both God and the Lamb equally own the same servants.
      Revelation 22:4 “they shall see his face.” Both God and the Lamb have the same face.
      Revelation 22:4 “his name shall be in their foreheads.” Both God and the Lamb have the same name.
      Revelation 20:6 “they shall be priests (of God and of Christ), and shall reign with HIM a thousand years” Revelation 21:22 “for (the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb) are the temple of it.” Both are temple of NJ Revelation 21:23 “for (the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light) thereof.” Both light of NJ
      33. God identifies Himself as “us” (a Trinity) in:‘God said “let us make man in our image”’ Genesis 1:26 ‘Jehovah God said, “Behold the man is become as one of us . . .’ Genesis 3:22. ‘Jehovah came down … the Lord said, let us go down.’ Genesis 11:5,7 ‘who will go for us?’ Isaiah 6:8. 34. Exodus 3:14 “I AM hath sent me unto you.” ‘I AM’ is the name of the angel of Jehovah, Jehovah, God (2,4,6) & Jesus in John 8:58 “Before Abraham was, I AM” & John 8:24 “If ye believe not that I AM”
      35. Psalm 110:1. God told David that David’s son would be David’s God. ‘The LORD (Jehovah) said unto my Lord (Adonai), Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.’ Jesus applied this to Himself in Matthew 22:41-45 as a question: ‘If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?’ This shows that Jesus Christ would be both a man descended from David and David’s God.
      36. Isaiah 6:1-8,5. “Mine eyes have seen the King, Jehovah of hosts” on the throne in heaven. God asked Isaiah “who will go for us?” (‘us’ = trinity). In John 12:37-41, John said, “These things said Esaias when he saw his (Jesus) glory, and spake of him (Jesus).” Jesus was the King, Jehovah of hosts that Isaiah saw.
      37. Isaiah 9:6 ‘Unto us a child is born (human Jesus),unto us a son is given (God the Son): his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The Mighty God.” Jehovah is Mighty God in Isaiah 10:21;Jer32:18; Ps 50:1
      38. Isaiah 44:6 ‘Thus saith Jehovah the King of Israel (Father) and his redeemer Jehovah of hosts (Son)”
      39. Isaiah 48:12,13,16 “Hearken unto me…Mine hand also has laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand has spanned the heavens:…Come ye near unto me,..the Lord GOD, and his Spirit has sent me.”
      Me, mine, my and me is God the Son describing his two works of creation and of incarnation to save man.
      40. Ezekiel 44:1,2 “This gate shall be shut…because Jehovah, the God of Israel has entered in by it.”
      In Luke 19:45-47 Jesus, who is Jehovah, fulfilled this prophecy, entering the east gate on a colt in 33AD.
      41. Hosea 4:1 and 5:15. Jehovah will return to ‘my place’ (heaven), till the Jews admit their offence of killing Jesus. “Hear the word of the LORD (Jehovah) (4:1),.I will go and return to my place (heaven), till they (Jews) acknowledge their offence (of killing Jesus), and seek my face: in their affliction (7 year tribulation) they (Jews) will seek me early.” Jehovah the Son came from heaven to be born of Mary as a man, he was rejected and crucified by the Jews. The resurrected Lord Jesus returned to heaven. Jesus will return when the Jews acknowledge their offence of killing Jesus. This occurs after the 7 year tribulation.
      42. Zechariah 11:4,12,13. “Thus saith the LORD (Jehovah) my God; (v.4). If ye think good, give me my price; So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver (v.12)….I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the LORD’ (Zechariah 11:4,12,13). (silver, temple floor, potter field) These three prophecies were fulfilled in Judas betraying Jesus Christ in Matthew 26:14-16 and 27:3-10.
      43. Zechariah 12:9-10. When Jesus Christ returns to earth, He is identified as Jehovah God whom Israel pierced on the cross. “I (Jehovah) will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem (v.9). They (Israel) shall look upon me (Jehovah) whom they have pierced.” Jesus fulfilled this in John 19:37.
      44. Zechariah 14:3,4,5,9. When Jesus Christ returns to earth on the Mount of Olives, He is identified as Jehovah God (Zechariah 14:3,4). ‘Then shall the LORD (Jehovah) go forth and fight against those nations, And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives (v.3-4)....the LORD (Jehovah) my God shall come, and all the saints with thee (v.5)….the LORD (Jehovah) shall be king over all the earth.’ When Jesus ascended to heaven from the Mount of Olives, two angels told those witnesses present that “this same Jesus shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.” (Acts 1:10-12).
      45. In Zechariah 2:8-11, Jehovah the Son states twice that Jehovah the Father has sent Him to Israel. This proves that there are at least two persons in the Godhead, both called Jehovah.
      “For thus saith Jehovah of hosts (the Son).. (v.8) Ye shall know that Jehovah of hosts (the Father) hath sent me (v.9). ‘I (Jehovah the Son) will dwell in the midst of thee, and thou shalt know that Jehovah of hosts (Father) hath sent me unto thee.” (v.11).
      Lesson: Jehovah (the Father) sends Jehovah (the Son). Two persons here are named Jehovah. This clearly proves that Jesus Christ in His pre-incarnate state is fully Jehovah God.
      46. In Zechariah 3:2 “Jehovah said unto Satan, Jehovah rebuke thee, O Satan”.
      One person in the Jehovah Godhead speaks about another person in the Jehovah Godhead. See Isaiah 48:16 Rules of Grammar dictate that: “Jehovah (the first person = person speaking) said unto Satan (the second person = person spoken to), Jehovah (the third person = person spoken about) rebuke thee.”
    • By admin
      He is according to Pope Francis...
      i know a lot of members on here are religious and I saw this in the bookstore today 


    • Guest Nicole
    • By sami
      ONE OR THREE?
      In his book TWO BABYLONS, Alexander Hislop traces the various mythologies back to a common heritage. Hislop pointed out the antiquity of the theological concept of the Trinity by giving examples of pagan trinities in Siberia, Japan, and India. He noted that the recognition of the Trinity was “universal in all the ancient nations of the world”. He went so far as to say that “the supreme divinity in almost all heathen nations was triune”.
      Historian Arthur Wainwright can find no doctrine remotely resembling the doctrine of the Trinity taught in Judaism until the time of Philo in the first century AD. And we know that Philo, even though he was a Jewish priest, was heavily influenced by Greek pagan thought.
      The idea of a “plural” God was far from the Hebrew mind.
      The pagan idea of a triad is very old. Sumerians, according to Morris Jastrow, paid homage to a triad of El-lil, “god or lord of the storm”, Ea, “water deity” of Eridu on the Persian Gulf, and Anu, sun god of Ur-uk.
      El-lil, was called “the father of Sumer” (“Shinar”), and “chief of gods”, “creator and sustainer of life”. The universe was apparently up among these three “pre-eminent” deities.
      Later, Marduk, the “firstborn” of Ea, and the patron deity of Babylon, is made “god of the earth”,
      and his symbol, oddly enough, is the dragon. He was called “Bel” or “Baal” (lord).
      Ashur, the god of the Assyrian capital was a “sun god”, and his consort or wife was Ishtar, the “great mother” goddess of Nineveh, a city founded by Ninus or Nimrod.
      Ishtar, known as Ashtoreth to the Phoenicians, and Astarte to the Greeks, was often portrayed riding on a lion. She was called the daughter of the moon, and identified in astrology as the Roman Venus (“goddess of love”). She was also known as Nana or Madonna (Lady). From whence comes the title and worship of Mary as the Madonna and queen of heaven.
      Ishtar has a bloody history as a goddess. She was reputedly the murderer of her consort Tammuz (variously known as Baal, Adonis, the Egyptian Osiris, the Greek Bacchus, or simply Nimrod). Queen Semiramis later brought forth an illegitimate son, which she claimed was Nimrod resurrected. He was called El-Bar, or “God the Son”, and “the Branch of Cush”. Thus was formulated one of the ancient triadic patterns of “father, mother, son”
      Franz Cumont tells us that triads were very common in the religion of the Chaldeans. The Babylonian triad became the Syrian triad of Hadad, Atargatis, and Simios. In Rome, this triad was Jupiter, Venus, and Mercury. Not only did the triadic pattern of deity spread throughout the world, but Cumont remarks on the continuing influence of the Babylonian priesthood after the fall of Babylon from political leadership.
      The ancient Greeks impressed with the wisdom of the Babylonians. Franz Cumont said, “Philosophy claimed more and more to derive its inspiration from the fabulous wisdom of Chaldea (Babylon) and Egypt”.
      According to Cumont, the “entire neo-platonic school is heavily indebted to the Chaldeans (Babylonians)”. It was the neo-platonic school of philosophy which influenced the Catholic fathers, Justin Martyr, Clement of Alexandria, and Origen.
      Porphyry reveals that the neo-platonists had incorporated Babylonian and Persian demonology into their philosophical system.
      The Greek philosopher Plato, greatly influenced the Catholic fathers. He was acquainted with Babylonian wisdom, and had traveled to Babylonia, Israel, and Egypt.
      Philo Judaeus (20 BC-50 AD) of Alexandria was the man who attempted to fuse the strict monotheistic theology of the Hebrew religion with the transcendental theology and philosophy of the Greek platonists.
      He, Philo, had a profound influence upon the Catholic fathers, and therefore upon the development of the Catholic Trinity.
      For one looking into Philo’s work will see that his conception of the Logos, with some modifications, is very similar to later trinitarian teaching on the Catholic Logos.
      Charles Semisch has stated, “The early (Catholic) Fathers only poured the contents of the scriptures into a Philonian vessel: they view the biblical passages through a Philonian medium”.
      I thought that the quote by historian Will Durant is quite appropriate: “Christianity did not destroy paganism; it adopted it.
      . . . From Egypt came the ideas of a divine trinity.” In the book Egyptian Religion, where Siegfried Morenz says: “The trinity was a major preoccupation of Egyptian theologians . . . Three gods are combined and treated as a single being, addressed in the singular. In this way the spiritual force of Egyptian religion shows a direct link with Christian theology.”
      Morenz goes on to say “Alexandrian theology as the intermediary between the Egyptian religious heritage and Christianity.”
      Edward Gibbon’s History of Christianity said : “If Paganism was conquered by Christianity, it is equally true that Christianity was corrupted by Paganism. The pure Deism of the first Christians . . . was changed, by the Church of Rome, into the incomprehensible dogma of the trinity. Many of the pagan tenets, invented by the Egyptians and idealized by Plato, were retained as being worthy of belief.”
      Dictionary of Religious Knowledge says that the Trinity “is a corruption borrowed from the heathen religions, and ingrafted on the Christian faith.”
      The book…. The Paganism in Our Christianity said this of the trinity doctrine: “The origin of the [Trinity] is entirely pagan.”
    • By Jack Ryan
      The Bible clearly shows where it is written that he himself says he does not. Only the Father knows.
    • By Witness
      Pearl Doxsey, July 2, 2018:
      Many refute that Michael the archangel is an identity of Jesus Christ, in his capacity as protector of the saints (Dan.12:1;John17:12; 6:39; 18:9; Rev.19:12) and defender of God's supremacy in the face of global idolatry (Rev.13:8,4) 
      (The name "Michael" means, "Who is like God?").
      Those who refute that role of the resurrected Jesus Christ, point to the fact that Jesus could not be a mere angel, even if being, an arch - angel. 
      Those who make such an assertion, apparently do not know the meaning of the Greek word, angelos. It simply means "messenger" (John12:49; 7:16). 
      The Greek meaning of "arch", is defined as the original prototype, with no equal. To be the "archangel", is to be supreme among God's messengers. 
      When Armageddon arrives, Jesus takes on an identity of a warrior (Rev.19:11,14; 17:14; 12:7) (Rev.3:12; Jer.31:33; Heb.10:16;Ex.34:14; Deut.11:18; Rev.7:3; 13:7,8,16,4). The name "Michael" ("Who is like God?"), perfectly describes his battle tactic and purpose, and indicates the target of his warfare that needs to be neutralized by the strategy reflected in that victorious name (Isa.40:25,18; 46:5) (Rev.13:14).

      Others may refute this named role of Jesus, based upon Michael being called "the great prince" (Dan.12:1) and "one of the chief princes" (Dan.10:12-14). Those are the topics that the link below, addresses.
      The article on the chief princes was broken down into three parts/questions. Previously, only part one was finished. This post serves as notice, that part two is now ready.
      June 6, 2015:
      QUESTION:

      "does the Bible shed light on how many Chief Princes are there and who they are as stated in Daniel 10:13 Michael, one of the chief princes"

      MY REPLY:

      Yes, the Bible sheds light on how many Chief Princes there are,
      who these chief princes are, and who all the princes are, among whom there are chief princes.
      Accordingly, I will answer your question in three parts.
      1. Who are all the "princes"?
      2. Who are the "chief princes" among all these princes?
      3. Who is The "Great Prince" ("arch-angel") mentioned at Dan.12:1?
          (Jude1:9; Dan.10:21; 8:25; Acts 3:15)
          (Jude1:9; Job 1:8-11; Zech.3:1-2; Rev.12:10 --
                        "Moses" -Deut.18:15,18; Heb.3:5; Matt.16:28; 17:1-3,5; 2Pet.1:18; Rev.14:1)
      -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -

      1. Who are the Bible's princes?

      I will limit my reply to the princes of God's covenant woman, and not include the princes of Satan's covenant of death
      (Eph.2:2; Isa.31:9; Eze.21:25; 22:27; 38:3; Dan.9:26; 10:20; Zeph.3:3; Rev.18:23; 9:7).

      The princes under the Great "guardian" Prince/Rescuer, (Dan.12:1; Isa.49:24-25; Matt.12:29; Rev.20:1-2; Luke10:19), who is Christ,
           (Isa.9:6; Dan.9:25; 12:1; John17:12; 6:39; 10:28; Matt.28:20),
      are the kings under the great king (Rev.19:16; 1:5; 3:21; 5:9,10; Eph.2:6; 1:22; Col.1:13).

      They are also considered by God, Christ's sons, because by means of Christ, they receive spirit life (John10:10; 20:22; 6:63; 5:21;17:2; Rom.8:9,10,11,13; 1John4:9,13; 5:11-12; 2:25; John3:6,15,36; 6:47,48,51,57,63; 10:28; Heb.5:9). "But", you may protest, "don't we all become 'sons of God'?". Yes. But there is more to it.---

      Within the Bible, forefathers are multiple. This tradition is a cultural difference from most modern day societies. 
      Please let me explain...
      Within the Bible, living faithful can have more than one father... both God and Christ (Isa.9:6).  Christ received his life from God first, before he can pass that incorruptible seed to those after him (1Pet.1:23; Luke8:11; John12:49; 6:63; James1:21).
      "Grandfather" is not in the Bible's language. This is why Abraham, David, Jacob, etc., are considered "fathers" of many subsequent generations. 
      All the generations of their descendants, have all of these as "fathers"
      (Zech.1:2,4-6; Acts3:13; 7:19; John8:39; Ex.3:6; Luke1:32; Matt.1:1), regardless of how many generations may come and go in between.

      Accordingly, we should not limit the spiritual lineage of those born of spirit, to either God or Christ as "father". Such ones are "sons" of both. Yet some are born of God's spirit directly (Rom.8:16; Heb.2:11), and others, through Christ and his bride (1Cor.15:45; Gal.4:26; Rev.22:17). 
      You may have noticed that within the scriptures, our spiritual fathers are the ones whom we imitate (John8:39,44; Eph.5:1;1Pet.1:16; Matt.5:44,45,48).  We can therefore, also be sons of Christ (1Pet.2:21) and of the sealed faithful (1Cor.11:1;4:15,14,16,17; 1John2:13,14; Philemon 1:10; Luke1:17; Phil.2:22; 3:17; 1Thess.2:11; 1:6) (Mal.4:5-6). 


      Hopefully, all these previous scriptures have helped to establish within your understanding, that whoever we imitate and do the will of, becomes our spiritual father (Eph.5:1; Matt.12:50; 7:21; 1John2:17; Rom.8:14) -- (Eph.2:2; John8:44). 
      If you do grasp that imitating Christ (1Cor.11:1; 1Pet.2:21) can make us his son, it will then be easier to grasp who the "princes" are. 

      First, lets look at Ps.45:16, which speaks of the dominion of Christ.

      "In place of your fathers will be your sons;
      You shall make them princes in all the earth."

      In place of Christ's kingly forefathers (Luke1:32; Isa.9:7; Matt.12:42), will come his spiritual sons (Heb.2:1-9,14,13,16; Isa.8:18;John10:28,29; 6:37-39; 17:2; 1Pet.1:5; Matt.18:3; 19:14), with whom he shares his kingdom (Ps.132:12; 110:2; Rev.3:21; 14:1;Jer.17:25; Eze.37:25; 34:24) (Heb.2:5,16; Rom.4:13; Gal.3:29; Gen.28:13,14; 13:14,15).
      They become co-kings (2Tim.2:12; Rev.5:9,10; 20:6) and co-princes (Isa.10:8; 9:6; Acts3:15; 5:31; Isa.32:1,2).
      As heirs of the earth, these will heal creation (Rom.8:19; Rev.22:1,2; 21:2-5; Jer.17:7,8; Matt.7:20; Eze.36:8), and also provide a "fatherly" example, that leads to life (1Cor.4:15-17; Phil.3:17; 4:9; 2Thess.3:9; 1Thess.1:6; 2Tim.3:14,15; Heb.13:7; 1Pet.5:3).
      From the foregoing reply to the first question...
      "Who are all the princes?";
      I hope you now perceive, that all those redeemed from death by Christ (Rev.5:9,10; 1Cor.15:54-55; Acts20:28) which "church" is the chosen saints of God's household (1Tim.3:15; 1Cor.14:33; 1Pet.2:10,9), are given fatherly life by Christ's blood...
             (through the new mother covenant of promise/sealed Bride
                 -Gal.4:26,24; Matt.26:28; Rom.9:8; Rev.12:2; Gal.4:19; Eph.4:13; 1Thess.2:7; 3John1:4) 
      ...These are his "sons", referred to as "princes" at Psalm 45:16.
      As such, they become "heirs of the earth" 
      (Rom.4:13; Gal.3:29; Heb.2:5,16; Matt.5:5; Psalm.37:11,22,29)
      and are, 
      "all the princes".

      2. Who are the "chief princes" among all these princes?

      Based upon the facts established above, we can re-word this question as, "Who are the "chief saints/sons of God" among all the saints/anointed chosen and holy ones?". Does such a position, exist? Please consider:
      Luke 12:42; John 21:17
      Although all members of the "one body" bride of Christ (Eph.5:31-32; 1Cor.6:17) are needed by all other members (1Cor.12:21,25;4:7); each has their own assignment (1Cor.12:14,4-7,18,11,20; Eph.4:8,11-12). 
      Some are given more responsibility (Luke 12:42; Mark 13:34; Matt.25:14-15; James 3:1; 1Cor.12:24,26; Luke 14:8,10-11), as "chief princes". How does the Bible describe the position held by those appointed as such?
      One of the symbols used to describe the body of Christ, is as God's Temple (Rom.12:5; 1Cor.3:16; 1Pet.2:5,9-10; Col.1:13).
      Jesus, is described as the cornerstone of that Temple (1Pet.2:6-8; Matt.7:24-25). If we build our faith upon the teachings of that cornerstone, we will not be put to shame but all we teach, will be proven true (Rom.10:11; 3:4; John7:16-18). Can you perceive how the symbolic "chief" cornerstone of our faith (remember, "chief princes"?), is the first symbolic foundation to our worship in spirit and truth? 
      If so, then we are starting to build the Temple of God, within your perception. If the "chief cornerstone" is the "great prince"/"chief prince" (Dan.12:1)... What about the other "chief princes" (Dan.10:13)? Does the Bible describe the rest of God's symbolic Temple, as having other foundation stones, upon which our faith needs to be chiefly built upon?
      Please consider Eph.2:20-22; 3:5; Rev.21:14; 1:20; Dan.12:3-4; Phil.2:15; 2Cor.11:4; Gal.1:8-9; Luke12:42; 1Pet.5:2;Heb.13:17; 1Cor.4:15)
      1Cor.12:28 and Eph.2:20, clarify the arrangement of authority ("chiefs") within the congregation, appointed by God and Christ. The apostles are our foundation stones, along with Jesus the cornerstone, of the truth. 
      ---No one can remain in union with the cornerstone and head of the body, if they leave the teachings of the apostles, whom he appointed as fatherly heads to the 12 tribes of spiritual Israel (Matt.3:9; Gal.3:29,26; Rom.2:28-29; Rev.7:7; 21:11-12,14). 
      ---No one can remain in union with the unfolding direction of holy spirit, if they leave the declarations and warnings of the genuine and faithful prophets, whose foundation is the right hand of Jesus (Rev.1:20; 22:6; Amos 3:7; 2Pet.1:21; 1Cor.14:32-33;Rev.11:3-5; Jer.23:29; Zech.4:11-14,6; Hosea 6:5; Rev.22:6; Mal.3:1-3; Rev.11:3). Those "stars" provide the light of spirit to each of their assigned "lampstands" (Rev.1:20), which lampstands hold up, and work to make visible (Matt.5:14-15; Eph.2:19;Gal.6:10), the prophet/"star" whom they support (Heb.6:10).
      We have learned that the symbolic foundation to the Temple of God's spirit (1Cor.3:16), is the truth of the apostles and the spirit of the prophets (Eph.2:20; 3:5). They are both necessary if a disciple is to lay a foundation of faith and worship, upon spirit and truth (John4:24). The apostles and prophets who produce spiritual food sourced in the spirit and truth from Christ (John15:4-5,8,16;Rev.22:1-2), are the "chief princes"/foundation stones. They are aligned with the cornerstone, and provide a basis upon which the living stones of the Temple of God, rest.

      3. Who is The "Great Prince" ("arch-angel") mentioned at Dan.12:1?
      Dan.12:1 reads; “At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered."

      [Before I go into Part 3: The Great Prince; I would like to offer additional information on other points made by Dan.12:1. 
      First, the unprecedented "time of distress". Here is a link to start off the information about the Great Tribulation (Matt.24:21)

      Second, the Book of the Lamb, within which the names of the delivered, are written (Rev.13:8; 21:27; 3:5; 17:8; 20:15,12)

      (TO BE CONTINUED)
      Pearl Doxsey – “WHO ARE THE CHIEF PRINCES?”
      4womaninthewilderness
    • By Jesus.defender
      THE TRINITY
      Watchtower Teaching: JW arguments against the Trinity are:
      i) If Jesus is God, who ran the universe during the three days that Jesus was dead in the grave? Satan had a great chance to take control.
      Answer: Jesus’ body died, not His soul or spirit. He along with the Father and the Holy Spirit still ran the universe.
      ii) If Jesus is the immortal God, He could not have died.
      Answer: The immortal God, by taking on a mortal body, had His mortal body die.
      iii) Since God is not a God of confusion (I Corinthians 14:33), it is impossible that the Bible would talk of a God who could not be understood by human reason. JWs claim that the Trinity is incomprehensible and unreasonable. ‘We worship what we know’ (John 4:22).
      Answer: Man’s lack of understanding has never stopped new discoveries. What percent of the total knowledge of the universe do you possess? (about zero percent).
      Ask: Could there be something about God that you don’t comprehend?(eg: His Trinity?).
      iv) The word ‘Trinity’ is not in the Bible.
      Answer: Neither is ‘Bible’, ‘organisation’, Kingdom Hall’, chocolate, motor car, etc.
      Say to the JW: ‘By this logic you would agree that Kingdom Halls don’t exist either?’
      This is shallow reasoning designed to throw the Christian off guard. If it can be proved that the Bible teaches a certain truth, then naming that truth does not make it unbiblical. We should ask: ‘Is the particular teaching in the Bible?’
      v) The Watchtower has misrepresented the Trinity doctrine in order to make its denial more plausible. 
      They erect a straw man that is easily knocked down.
      They call the Trinity a ‘freakish looking, three headed God’ (Let God be True, p 102)
      ‘This doctrine of three Gods in one God . . .’ (Studies in Scripture, 1899, Vol 5, p 60,61)
      Note: Trinitarians do not believe in ‘three Gods in one God’.
      They believe in one God, with three co-equal persons in the one Godhead.

      1. Refuting the Watchtower’s FALSE Quotes of Early Church Writers
      The Watchtower is quite happy to tell lies by inventing statements allegedly made by six Ante-Nicene Church writers who lived before 325 AD. Page 7 of their publication ‘Should you believe in the Trinity?’ Shows the Watchtower’s claims that these ancient writers taught that Jesus Christ was not God. These quotes are FALSE and INVENTED by the Watchtower. They are easily refuted by the photocopied excerpts of the 10 volume set of genuine Ante-Nicene church fathers quotes that prove these early writers strong belief in and defence of the Trinity.
      In the Watchtower’s false quotes we notice that:
      1) None of these references are given a source, making them nearly impossible to check. It is almost certain that the Watchtower has invented these quotes.
      2) Notice the lie of the central bold quote on page 7: ‘There is no evidence that any sacred writer even suspected the existence of a [Trinity] within the Godhead’.
      We refute this Watchtower lie, and prove beyond doubt that both the Trinity and the full deity of Christ were well known and firmly believed as early as 110 AD as seen from the quotes by the Ante-Nicene (before 325 AD) church fathers which follow the Watchtower quote.
      The following quotes are from the 10 Volume set of The Ante-Nicene Fathers, translations of The Writings of the Fathers down to A.D. 325, by editors Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, American Reprint of the Edinburgh edition, revised and arranged by A C Coxe, published by W.B.Eerdmans, Grand Rapids, Michigan, reprinted in May 1987.
      The Watchtower’s claim that Constantine and the Council of Nicea introduced the deity of Christ and Trinity doctrines in 325 AD is proven false by these pre-325 AD quotes to the contrary:
      i) Justin Martyr (110-165 AD),Volume I, page 263: ‘His Son, being God’ Volume I, page 219 Justin Martyr says:: ‘Christ existed as God before the ages’ Volume I, page 264). Justin Martyr says that ‘Christ is Lord and God’.
      ii) Irenaeus (120-202 AD) Volume I, page 328 not only shows the NWT to be wrong on John 1:1
      but also calls Christ ‘God’
      iii) Clement of Alexandria (153-217 AD) In Volume 2, p 468, written in 193 AD, Clement clearly quotes the Holy Trinity as Father, Son & Holy Spirit. page 173
      iv) Tertullian (200-250 AD) Volume 3, page 598 page 598 Tertullian against Praxeas, Volume 3, p.606 Tertullian correctly quotes John 1:1, saying that Christ is God. (Volume 3, p. 607) Tertullian again quotes the
      Trinity on a fourth occasion. (Vol 4, page 99)
      v) Hippolytus (170-236 AD) Volume 5, page 228 mentions the Trinity and quotes John 1:1 correctly.
      vi) Origen (185-254 AD) Volume 4, page 255. Twice he quotes the word ‘Trinity’, as Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Also on page 258 he quotes the Trinity in ‘Origen de Principiis’, written in 230 AD.
      vii) Thaumaturgus (205-265 AD) Volume 6, pages 42, 45
      2. Is the Trinity a Pagan Concept? No! Because:
      i) The Babylonians and Assyrians believed in triads of gods, which were three separate gods (polytheism) governing other gods. This is totally different from the Trinity of only one God (monotheism) with three persons within the one Godhead.
      ii) Triads of gods pre-date Christianity by about 700 years and were far removed from Israel..
      iii) Some pagan ideas have some truth in them, such as the pagan Flood legends. Just because pagans spoke of a concept that remotely resembles a biblical concept, does not mean that Christians stole it from the pagans.
      iv) JWs quote Hislop’s The Two Babylons to support their case, yet they don’t tell us that Hislop believes in the Trinity, as seen from Hislop’s quote:
      ‘They all admitted a Trinity, but did they worship the Triune Jehovah?’ (p. 90)
      - About 80% of the sources that the WT quotes are from Trinitarians. This begs the question: ‘How can the WT disprove the Trinity by quoting sources who believe the Trinity?
      - 15% of their sources are secular works like Encyclopaedia Britannica.
      - 5% of WT sources are invalid sources of Biblical truth, eg: sceptics, spiritists, Unitarians.
      - The WT always finds some unknown, obscure person to agree with them. They do not examine the credibility of such sources. Most WT sources have no credibility & no authority.
      - The WT rarely gives page numbers of its quotes to allow check the source and context.
      v) JWs claim they represent the ‘faith once delivered to the saints’. They claim that the Trinity idea was introduced in 325 AD. What they don’t say is that current WT teachings have no precedent in history. They do not say who were the JWs of the first three centuries or later. No early church ‘father’ represented their beliefs. The WT is historically bankrupt.
      vi) The WT, by showing a three-headed god, use the ‘straw-man effect’, where they misrepresent what Christians believe, and then proceed to ‘shoot down’ this ‘straw man’.
      This is seen in five pictures of three-headed gods which are supposed to represent the God of Christendom. (‘Should you believe in the Trinity’ p 10).
      vii) The WT is happy to misquote sources to prove their point.
      Consider page 6 ‘Should you believe in the Trinity’, where they misquote the New Encyclopaedia Brittanica by failing to give the full relevant quote. They stop the quote at the asterisk *
      ‘The Encyclopaedia Britannica (1976 Edition) correctly states:
      “Neither the word Trinity, nor the explicit doctrine as such, appears in the New Testament”,’
      [*They stop the quote here, ignoring the rest of the article which endorses the Trinity:]
      ‘nor did Jesus and his followers intend to contradict the Shema in the Old Testament: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord’ (Deuteronomy 6:4). The earliest Christians, however, had to cope with the implications of the coming of Jesus Christ and of the presence and power of God among them - ie, the Holy Spirit, whose coming we connected with the celebration of Pentecost.
      The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit were associated in such New Testament passages as the Great Commission: ‘Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit’ (Matthew 28:19); and in the apostolic benediction:
      ‘The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all’ (2 Cor. 13:14). Thus, the New Testament established the basis for the doctrine of the Trinity.The doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies.
      Any early church council disputes were over fine points of Trinity clarification, such as the substance, nature and omnipotence of Father, Son and Holy Spirit, never over whether the Trinity was right or wrong. The truth of the Trinity was always accepted.
      3. Refuting Watchtowers’ wrong application of I Corinthians 14:33
      ‘for God is not the author of confusion, but of peace . . .’
      Watchtower Teaching: JWs say that because God is not the author of confusion, the Trinity doctrine cannot be true because it is so unreasonable. How can the Father, Son and Holy Spirit each be God, and yet there be only one God? It doesn’t make sense to them.
      Bible Teaching: Just because one is unable to fully understand something, doesn’t mean that it is false.
      i) Finite humans cannot possibly understand everything about the infinite God.
      ‘How unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out.’ (Romans 11:33)
      ‘For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.
      As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts’. (Isaiah 55:8,9)
      ii) Can you fully understand how light can be both a particle of matter and a wave form?
      iii) Can you fully understand how God did not have a beginning? (No) Do you reject the idea?
      Ask: Should we reject the Trinity doctrine because we don’t fully understand it, when we accept other things about God and the universe which we don’t fully understand.
      I Corinthians 14:33 means that a church should avoid disharmony in its services by only
      having two or three prophets speak in a service, and only one at a time.
      ‘Confusion’ means ‘parts of a whole which are at strife with one another’.
      ‘Peace’ means ‘parts of a whole acting in harmony’.
      5. Refuting WT’s misunderstanding of Deuteronomy 6:4 and Mark 12:29
      ‘Hear,O Israel, the Lord (YHWH) our God (Elohim) is one Lord (YHWH).’ (Deut 6:4)
      Watchtower teaching: JWs say that, since God is one, He cannot be Triune at the same time. Why would God speak as one person if He were composed of three persons?
      Bible teaching: The ordinary name of God (Elohim) is in the plural form ‘Hear, O, Israel, Jehovah our Elohim, one Jehovah.’ Deut.6:4
      If God had intended to assert a solitary, exclusive type of unity, the expression would have been ‘Eloah’, not the plural ‘Elohim’.
      It does not say: ‘Hear, O Israel, Jehovah, our Elohim, one Eloah.’
      The use of Elohim (a uniplural noun) means: ‘there is a real plurality, yet Jehovah is one.’
      Ask: Who is Jehovah? Is it the Father alone? Is Jesus Jehovah? Is the Holy Spirit Jehovah?
      If we can find verses teaching that Jesus is Jehovah (or God) and the Holy Spirit is Jehovah,
      then we have proved the Trinity.
      i) The Holy Spirit is called Jehovah:‘Now Jehovah is the Spirit’.(II Corinthians 3:17 NWT)
      ii) Jesus Christ is called God, as follows:
      (1) ‘Our Lord Jesus Christ who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto’(I Tim 6:14-16)
      (2) ‘The Word was God.’ (John 1:1)
      (3) ‘of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ’ (Titus 2:13)
      (4) ‘the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ’. (II Peter 1:1)
      (5) ‘if ye believe not that I am, ye shall die in your sins.’ (John 8:24)
      (6) ‘Before Abraham was, I am.’ (John 8:58)
      (7) ‘God was manifest in the flesh’. (I Timothy 3:16)
      (8) ‘Thomas said unto him, My Lord and My God’. (John 20:28)
      (9) ‘in him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.’ (Colossians 2:9)
      (10) ‘unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God is forever.’ (Hebrews 1:8)
      (11) ‘If you publicly declare . . . that Jesus is Lord.’ (KIT: ‘ha Adon’ in Hebrew footnote of Romans 10:9. In the 1961 edition of NWT, p.1453, ‘ha Adon’ = Jehovah).
      (12) ‘that he (Christ) might be Lord both of the dead and the living’. (Romans 14:9).
      In verses 6-11 of NWT ‘??????’(Lord) is translated 7 times as Jehovah, except in v.9. Why?
      (13) ‘in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.’ (I John 5:20)
      (14) ‘feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.’ (Acts 20:28)
      6. Notice how God reveals Himself in stages to man:
      (1) God revealed His Unity as the one and only true God, to refute the nations’ many gods.
      (2) God revealed the Trinity (Jehovah=Father+Son+HS) in the Old Testament in:
      ‘Jehovah your God is God of gods (the Father), and Lord of lords (the Son)’. (Deut.10:17).
      ‘Thus saith Jehovah the King of Israel (the Father),and his redeemer Jehovah of hosts (the Son).Is44:6
      ‘God said “let us make man in our image . . .”.’ Genesis 1:26
      ‘Jehovah God said, “Behold the man is become as one of us . . .’ Genesis 3:22
      ‘Jehovah came down . . . the Lord said, let us go down . . .’ Genesis 11:5,7
      ‘the Lord saying . . . who will go for us?’ Isaiah 6:8
      ‘What is his name....and what is his Son’s name.’ Proverbs 30:4
      ‘the Lord God (the Father), and his Spirit (HS), hath sent me (Jehovah the Son).’ Isaiah 48:16.
      (3) God revealed the fullness of the Trinity doctrine in the New Testament:
      Matthew 28:19 ‘baptizing them in the name (singular name, not plural) of the Father, and of
      the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.’
      I John 5:7 ‘There are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.’
      Revelation 22:1,3,4 ‘the throne (of God and of the Lamb) shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him; they shall see his face, and his name shall be in their foreheads.’
      Key:God and the Lamb have one throne, one name, one face and one ownership of servants.
      II Corinthians 13:14 ‘The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost’. There is one God, but three persons within the Godhead.
      (4) Early Christians with a strong Jewish background, who knew Deuteronomy 6:4, continually refer to Jesus as ‘Lord’ and ‘God’ (Romans 10:13, I Thess 5:2, I Peter 2:3, 3:15.) They often apply to Jesus many Old Testament texts which refer to Jehovah, such as:
      a) Jesus Christ in Matthew 3:1-3 fulfils Isaiah 40:3 to‘Prepare the way of Jehovah’ and Elohim.
      b) Jesus Christ’s glory in John 12:41 is Jehovah’s glory in Isaiah 6:1-5.
      c) Jesus Christ’s voice as the sound of many waters in Revelation 1:15 is identical to Jehovah’s voice as the sound of many waters in Ezekiel 43:2.
      d) Jesus Christ being pierced in Rev 1:7 is the same one as Jehovah being pierced in Zech
      12:10.
      e) Jesus Christ being called on for salvation in Romans 10:13, is the same as Jehovah being called on for salvation in Joel 2:32
      f) Jesus Christ, the Lamb, is the everlasting light in Revelation 21:23, just as Jehovah ‘shall be . . . an everlasting light’ in Isaiah 60:19,20.
      Ask:Do you agree that Trinitarians believe Deuteronomy 6:4 that there is only one true God?
      Ask: Do you understand that Trinitarians don’t teach that there are three gods in the Trinity, but that there is only one God with three persons within the one Godhead?
      Ask: How do you explain that the early Jewish Christians who believed Deuteronomy 6:4, applied to Jesus many Old Testament texts that were originally written of Jehovah?
       
    • By Charles loyal
      NOT ASHAMED OF JESUS CHRIST 
      Jehovah's Witnesses very much do believe in Jesus. Jehovah's Witnesses try to follow closely the
      teachings and behavior of Jesus Christ. (1 Peter 2:21)
      Jehovah's Witnesses teach that no salvation occurs without Christ (Acts 4:12), that accepting Christ's sacrifice is a requirement for true worship, that every prayer must acknowledge Christ, that Christ is the King of God's Kingdom, that Christ is the head of the Christian congregation, that Christ is immortal and above every creature, even that Christ was the 'master worker' in creating the universe.
      And when people become Jehovah’s Witnesses, they are baptized in the name of Jesus.—Matthew 28:18, 19.
      Why Do Some Say That Jehovah's Witnesses Are Not Christians?
      Many falsely claim that Jehovah's Witnesses do not believe in Jesus. They may do this due to a misunderstanding or because they wish to depict Jehovah's Witnesses in a bad light. 
      Jehovah's Witnesses believe in what the Bible says and what Jesus himself claimed...that Jesus is the SON OF God. Jesus is God's "only-begotten" son...the only being directly created by God. (John 1:18) 
      Jesus is "the beginning of the creation of God." (Rev. 3:14)
      He is the "firstborn of all creation". (Col. 1:15)
      Even though Jehovah's Witnesses do not believe that Jesus is God Himself, this does not mean that they don't believe in Jesus! They believe that he is EXTREMELY IMPORTANT. In fact, he is the second most important person in the Universe next to Jehovah God Himself.

      Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.
    • By Diakonos
      One thing that has always puzzled me is this: what happened to the spirit creature Michael when Jesus was conceived/born as a human? We are told that Jehovah transferred Michael's life pattern into Jesus in much the same way as God will do for those who are resurrected. This would mean that when Jesus was alive on earth there was no Michael in heaven. As we do not believe that humans have a spirit, in the accepted sense of the word, the question remains, what happened to Michael during Jesus earthly presence?
    • By Jesus.defender
      BIBLE PROOFS OF THE TRINITY

      Key: The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are so clearly and consistently linked in Scripture that, assuming that God is not three persons, makes it impossible to understand some passages.
      Though JWs exalt human reasoning against the Trinity doctrine, saying it is unreasonable,those who submit to God’s Word must conclude that it is unreasonable to doubt the Trinity.
      Consider these scriptures proving the Trinity:
      1. Matthew 28:19 The ‘Name’ of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.

      Watchtower teaching: JWs ask, ‘Does this verse prove the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are equal in substance, power and eternity?’ They say, ‘No, no more than listing three people
      Tom, Dick and Harry mean that they are three in one.’ They say that the Trinity doctrine is imposed on the text, not derived from it.

      Bible Teaching: The key point is that the word ‘name’ is singular in the Greek NT, thus proving that there is one God, but three distinct persons within the Godhead.
      This proves the Trinity because Jesus did not say:
      i) ‘into the names (plural) of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.’
      ii) ‘into the name of the Father, and into the name of the Son, and into the name of the Holy Spirit’, as if we had three separate beings.
      iii) ‘into the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit’ omitting the three articles (the), as if the Father, Son and Holy Spirit might be three designations of a single person.
      What He does say is: ‘into the name (singular) of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit’.
      Jesus first teaches the unity of the three by combining them all within a single name.
      He then teaches that each is a different person by introducing each of them in turn with the
      article (tou):
      Question: Can you see that rules of grammar dictate plurality (the, the, the) within unity (the name), because the word ‘name’ is singular and definite articles (Greek: tou) are placed in front of Father, Son and Holy Spirit?
      Other verses showing ‘three-in-oneness’ of the Godhead are:
      i) At the creation of man, ‘God said, let us make man in our image, after our likeness . .’ (Genesis 1:26). ‘Our image’ in v. 26 is explained as God’s image in v. 27.
      The one true God consists of three persons who are able to confer with one another and carry out their plans together, while still being one God.
      ii) After the Fall, ‘the Lord (Jehovah) God (Elohim) said, Behold, the man is become as one of us . ’ (Genesis 3:22)
      ‘Us’ refers back to LORD (Jehovah), showing plurality within the Jehovah Godhead.

      iii) At the Tower of Babel, ‘the LORD (Jehovah), said . . let us go down’ (Genesis 11:6,7).
      iv) Isaiah ‘saw the Lord (Adonai) sitting upon a throne (v.1) mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD (Jehovah) of hosts (v.5). I heard the voice of the Lord (Adonai) saying: ‘Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?’’ (Isaiah 6:1,5,8) Here Isaiah sees ‘Adonai’ on the throne, then Isaiah calls Him ‘Jehovah of hosts’ (v.5).

      Then Adonai asks,‘Who will go for us?’The ‘us’ shows plurality in the Jehovah Godhead. This equivalence of Adonai and Jehovah (both called ‘us’) proves the Trinity Godhead.
      2. Genesis 18 and 19. Three men each called Jehovah.
      JWs believe that it is impossible for Jehovah God to exist as three persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Yet Genesis 18 and 19 shows Jehovah appearing to Abraham as three men. This
      shows that even the impossible from a human viewpoint is possible with God. Notice that:

      i) Abraham addresses the three as ‘Jehovah’ (v.3 NWT);
      ii) When two of the three men depart to visit Lot in Sodom, Abraham continues to address the remaining one as ‘Jehovah’ (Genesis 18:22,26,27,30,31,32,33).
      iii) Lot addressed the other two as ‘Jehovah’ (Genesis 19:1,18 NWT). ‘Then Lot said to them: “Not that please, Jehovah”.’ (19:18 NWT)
      iv) ‘Then Jehovah made it rain sulphur and fire from Jehovah, from the heavens upon Sodom and Gomorra.’ (Genesis 19:24)
      Notice the mention here of two Jehovahs, one in heaven who sends judgment on Sodom and Gomorra, at the bidding of the other Jehovah on earth.
      This gives strong evidence for more than one person in the Godhead. The Jehovah upon earth was one of three persons to visit Abraham, one of whom stays behind to speak further to Abraham and is called Jehovah. (Genesis 21:1 ‘Jehovah turned his attention to Sarah’).
      Hence this shows that it is possible for Jehovah to manifest Himself as three-in-one.
       
      3. II Corinthians 3:17 - ‘Jehovah is the Spirit’ (NWT).
       
      JWs challenge Christians to prove the Trinity in the Bible. This can be done if we find verses teaching that the Holy Spirit is Jehovah God, and the Son is Jehovah God.
      II Corinthians 3:17 teaches this by saying: ‘Now Jehovah is the Spirit.’

      How much clearer can it be than this, which states that the Holy Spirit is (=) Jehovah God? This proves the Deity of the Holy Spirit, and the existence of 2 persons in the Godhead.
      4. I John 5:7,8 The Johannine Comma, the famous Trinitarian proof text (3 Heavenly witnesses)
      Watchtower teaching: JWs claim that this passage ought not to be in the Bible, because it is not in most Greek manuscripts. It is omitted by most modern Bible versions. ’
      Bible Teaching: Erasmus omitted it from his first edition of the printed Greek NT (1516), because it occurred in the Latin Vulgate and not in any Greek manuscript. To quieten the
      outcry that followed, he agreed to restore it if it could be found in one Greek manuscript.
      Two Greek manuscripts, Codex 61 and 629 were found, so Erasmus included it in his 1522 edition. Since these manuscripts are late (14th and 15th Century), some think the readings are
      corrupt. What do we answer? (See page 805-806).

      5. In II Corinthians 13:14, (the Apostolic Benediction) why is there a change in the order of the persons of the Trinity, compared to Matthew 28:19, if not to show that ‘in this Trinity
      none is before or after the other, and none is greater or less than another’?

      ‘The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.’ (II Corinthians 13:14)
      ‘Baptising them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.’ Matt. 28:19
    • By Jesus.defender
      Isaiah 9:6 - Is Jesus ‘a Mighty God’ or ‘Jehovah God’?

      ‘His name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, the Mighty God (410), the Everlasting
      Father, the Prince of Peace’.
      Watchtower teaching: JWs concede that Jesus is a ‘mighty God’, but they are adamant that
      He is not Almighty God as Jehovah is. They think that Christ is one of lesser gods.
      Bible teaching: The Bible shows that both Jesus and Jehovah are called ‘Mighty God’.
      Jehovah is called ‘Mighty God’ in:
      a) ‘The remnant of Israel . . . shall stay upon Jehovah, the remnant of Jacob shall return . .
      unto the mighty God (410)’. (Isaiah 10:20,21).
      b) ‘the Great, the Mighty God (410), Jehovah of hosts, is his name’. (Jeremiah 32:18).
      Because Jehovah and Jesus are both called ‘Mighty God’, this proves Christ’s equality with
      God the Father.
      Ask: Since Jehovah is called ‘Mighty God’ (Isaiah 10:21) just as Jesus is called ‘Mighty
      God’ (Isaiah 9:6), doesn’t this mean that the Watchtower is wrong in saying that ‘Mighty
      God’ means a lesser deity?
      Ask: If both Jesus and Jehovah are ‘Mighty God’, then what does this tell you about Jesus’
      divine nature?
      Ask: If both Jesus and Jehovah are equally ‘Mighty God’, then isn’t this two members of
      the Trinity?
      Note: There is only one Mighty God in heaven:
      a) ‘I am the first and I am the last; beside me there is no God (430)’. (Isaiah 44:6b)
      b) ‘Is there a God (433) besides Me? Yea, there is no God; I know not any’.(Isaiah 44:8b).
      c) ‘I am the Lord (YHWH), and there is none else,there is no God beside me’(Isaiah 45:5a)
      The NWT translates John 1:1 as ‘the word was a god’.
      Isaiah 44:8b shows this to be false by denying the existence of ‘a god’ other than Jehovah.
      The phrase ‘Mighty God’ is ‘Elohim’ in Hebrew, meaning ‘Fullness of power’, portraying
      Christ as the ‘powerful Governor of the universe’.
      Notice that ‘Elohim (430)’ is also used to describe Jehovah God as:
      i) ‘The God (430) of the whole earth’. (Isaiah 54:5)
      ii) ‘The God (430) of all flesh’. (Jeremiah 32:27)
      iii) ‘I prayed to the God (430) of heaven’. (Nehemiah 2:4)
      iv) ‘For the Lord (YHWH) your God (430) is God (430) of gods....a great God.’(Deut 10:17)
      In Isaiah 40:3 Jesus is called both Jehovah (3068) and Elohim (430) in the same verse:
      ‘Prepare ye the way of the Jehovah, make straight in the desert a highway for our God (430)’.
      Mark 1:3 and John 1:23 apply Jehovah here to Jesus.
      Question: What is meant by calling Jesus ‘Everlasting Father’?
      Since Jesus is not the Father, why does Isaiah call Jesus ‘Everlasting Father’?
      Answer: Jesus considers the Father as someone other than Himself over 200 times in the NT.
      ‘Everlasting Father’ in Isaiah 9:6 means ‘Father of eternity’.




×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

Terms of Service Confirmation Terms of Use Privacy Policy Guidelines We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.