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An interesting take on politics, conspiracies, and prophecies

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I just noticed this topic here, and it's funny because I had recently been doing some research into things such as "deep state" etc. I am for the most part a complete political ignoramus. I mean the worst there could be. My husband had to explain to me what the difference between the right and left wing was. I thought it had something to do with birds. Just kidding, but almost. Politics has never interested me, probably because of my JW upbringing and because I have never really had the need to, until recently. I have met a very interesting person recently who is involved in a certain branch of expertise and they started hurling terms such as "the Globalists" "deep state" etc. at me. They are also very interested in what the Bible has to say. I realized than in order to carry on a fruitful conversation I will have to educate myself politically a little. So that at least I know what they are talking about. They mentioned they spoke with a JW many years ago who told them about Daniel's prophesy and the statue. They said that they can see all the things this person told them coming true. I cannot really say much more because, well, it can get a little dangerous. A colleague of theirs was recently found dead...

I do not believe conspiracy theories. I do not think the Rothschild family is the mastermind over all of earth's affairs, for example, but logic tells me that those with money, automatically have an insurmountable amount of power.

I like this quote: When a government is dependent upon bankers for money, they and not the leaders of the government control the situation, since the hand that gives is above the hand that takes… Money has no motherland; financiers are without patriotism and without decency; their sole object is gain.” – Napoleon Bonaparte 

Anyway, while I was researching I found out about the "Bilderberg Meetings" which some of you might be familiar with, but I knew nothing about. There are many conspiracy theories about the actual function of these "secret" meetings, which as I said I do not buy into, however, it is interesting to see how these meetings could in theory be a part of some kind of "deep state". It is also interesting to see the topics  discussed each year, and the list of those who are invited, and even more interesting seeing members of the clergy involved, although it is to be expected (this year; Pietro Parolin, Cardinal, and secretary of Vatican state). One conspiracy website mentions the "trinity of Globalist control" as being:  City of London Corporation – Financial power centre, established in 1067, District of Columbia – Military power centre, established in 1871, Vatican City – Religious power centre, sovereign in 1929. Kind of prophetic for us JWs wouldn't you say?

Here is the official website for the Bilderberg Meetings:

    Hello guest!

 

 

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3 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

That's one way of avoiding thinking about all the problems within the JW Org I suppose. 

Yes, it puts it all into perspective: the problems in JW Org. are nothing!

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25 minutes ago, Anna said:

Just being realistic 🙂

The point being you now seem to be looking into the 'world'.  We all know what the 'world' is like. 

However the JW Org is supposed to be 'pure'.  Well it pretends to be. 

The world is supposed to be wicked and complicated. The JW Org is supposed to be clean and easy to understand. 

Have a good day. 

 

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21 hours ago, Anna said:

Yes, it puts it all into perspective: the problems in JW Org. are nothing!

Hello Anna, you are right. Some are so obsessed with the sins of the Governing Body that they twist every negative figure in the Bible and apply them on the Governing Boby. Some twist the scriptures about the man of sin, the wild beast, the false prophet in Revelation and falsely apply on the WT organization and on the GB, instead of correctly applying those scriptures on political worldy entities, of which some have not even yet shown up.

And I see from your post that you have educated yourself about how the world is run in the reality. 

I found a few years back this documentary done by a history teacher about how secret societies run the world and the wars in the world. And interesting that he came to the conclusion that they are the mystery woman Babylon the Great guilty of all the deaths. At 1:58:00 he starts to comment about that. And he points out that the secret societies the last 100 years have had New York as their capital city.

 

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1. This topic is not by Anna

2. Whoever put the title of this topic here needs to know Anna never started exploring "deep state" after reading a question on the 1%. Anna started exploring this way before.

Here is a suggestion: 

1. Don't start a topic on my behalf unless you ask my permission

2. Get your facts right

Thank you.

 

 

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32 minutes ago, Kosonen said:

Some twist the scriptures about the man of sin, the wild beast, the false prophet in Revelation and falsely apply on the WT organization and on the GB, instead of correctly applying those scriptures on political worldy entities, of which some have not even yet shown up.

 

You mean "some", like myself.

The Pharisees and Sadducees came to test Jesus. So they asked him to show them a miraculous sign from heaven.

He responded to them, “In the evening you say that the weather will be fine because the sky is red. And in the morning you say that there will be a storm today because the sky is red and overcast. You can forecast the weather by judging the appearance of the sky, but you cannot interpret the signs of the times.

“Evil and unfaithful people look for a miraculous sign. But the only sign they will be given is that of Jonah.”

Then he left them standing there and went away.

 

Jesus said to them, “Be careful! Watch out for the yeast of the Pharisees and Sadducees!”  Matt 16:1-6

When you look at a loaf of bread, do you see on the outside what may be hidden inside that may have contaminated it, making it unfit to eat?  What you are offering as the identities of the wild beast and false prophet is no different than what the majority of the world thinks.  It is not hidden, but blatant.  Satan is deceitful, working as an angel of light.  You know and can perceive the works of lies in the WT under the GB's influence and partnership with its "Beast/organization", (Rev 13) yet you turn away, as do the majority of JWs.  Not even child abuse is enough to wake them up. 

What will it take?  2 Thess 2:9-12   The "power, signs, and lying wonders" stem from unrighteous DECEPTION" and a "strong DELUSION".    It is God's anointed "kings" and the "nations" with them, that are deceived, just as you still are. Rev 13:7;16:12-14 (Rev 1:5; 5:9,10)

 

 

 

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11 minutes ago, Witness said:

 

You mean "some", like myself. 

What will it take?  2 Thess 2:9-12   The "power, signs, and lying wonders" stem from unrighteous DECEPTION" and a "strong DELUSION".    It is God's anointed "kings" and the "nations" with them, that are deceived, just as you still are. Rev 13:7;16:12-14 (Rev 1:5; 5:9,10)

 

 

 

Hi Witness, I am not specifically targeting you. I am trying to alert people against such wrong interpretations that obscure the true meanning of very important end time prophecies. And I have encountered such erroneous interpretations on several forums and websites sadly.

When JWs and former JWs get it wrong God Jehovah has to use "wordly" sources to get the word out.

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I moved it from my topic on the 1%

i can delete this entire topic if you like.? Let me know. 

 

I move things in order to not just delete them when they are off topic.  

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Look how blind God's servant was in the past. Looks like the same repeats time and again. (I try hard that I would not fall for the same error, by following Jesus' words as much as I can).

Isaiah 42:18  Listen, you who are deaf; Look and see, you who are blind.19  Who is blind except my servant, So deaf as the messenger I send? Who is so blind as the one rewarded, So blind as the servant of Jehovah? 20  You see many things, but you do not keep watch.You open your ears, but you do not listen. 21  For the sake of his righteousness, Jehovah has taken pleasure in magnifying the law and making it glorious.22  But this is a people plundered and pillaged; All of them are trapped in the holes and hidden in the prisons. They have been plundered with no one to rescue them, And pillaged with no one to say: “Bring them back!”23  Who among you will hear this? Who will pay attention and listen for the time to come?24  Who has given Jacob for pillage And Israel to the plunderers? Is it not Jehovah, the One against whom we sinned? In His ways they refused to walk, And His law they would not obey. 25  So He kept pouring out on him wrath, His anger and the fury of war. It consumed everything around him, but he paid no attention. It blazed up against him, but he would not take it to heart.

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7 minutes ago, admin said:

I moved it from my topic on the 1%

i can delete this entire topic if you like.? Let me know. 

 

I move things in order to not just delete them when they are off topic.  

I don't mind you keeping this topic, although I do believe I wasn't off topic since it discussed the 1percenters, and they are supposed to be the "Globalists" and those behind the "deep state" . There is only so much you can discuss about; "How much money you need to be part of the 1% worldwide" lol. Most of those 1 percenters can print money, legally, because they own banks, so they dictate the amount you need, to be the 1%. And who knows what that amount is? It's not even "Pretty Woman" caliber, but more like owning a country. But I understand it became off topic since it started involving JW ideology. So how about changing the title to something like: An interesting take on politics, conspiracies, and prophecies xD

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5 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

I used my moderate powers as a moderator to change the title. 

Thanks for coming to my aid. I was racking my brain to try and come up with an appropriate title and then I noticed your comment came up, just in time, lol

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23 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

What’s all this about @Anna going deep state? Is she the one making those chemtrails I see outside?

Don't use those big words on me

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@Anna It depends on what you want to know. I myself is also a Truther to some extent, as they call it. Reasons react and or make response regarding falsehood and or conspiracy of any kind.

That being said, it would depend on what you want to know. The Global Mafia, The New World Order, One World Religion, Deep State, The Shadow Government, the Dark Web, Information about the Middle East, Israel, Russia, etc.

Knowing these things is important and in some cases, it is key, mainly when dealing with folks who are ignorant of truth and or do not know any better.

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The following is just my opinion, of course:

Religious fervor begins with a religious group believing that they know something important that others do not know. For some this has been "knowledge of the times and seasons" i.e., the dates or time range or signs that show how close we are to the end of this system. For some the differences between their religion and others will seem small, but to the religion that believes it has more important knowledge, these differences will seem huge.

The same thing is true of political views, some people see differences in left and right as no big deal, but others are convinced that they know something important about the correctness of their own view and the incorrectness of the other person's view. These ones will display political fervor in the same way that religions can show religious fervor.

In other words, politics is just like religion (and religion is just like politics).

Most of politics, just like most religion, is based on misinformation, or the beliefs of parents, or the general traditions and propaganda of our national group, or the beliefs of our most outspoken and convincing friends.

I've seen a curious uniformity in the way many JWs would position themselves if they had to identify which of their beliefs align more with the US "left" and the US "right." The US is aligned generally with the "International West" (UK, France, Germany, Australia) and sometimes includes Japan, Israel, Saudi Arabia and other nations when interests align.

This might make an interesting topic of study about JWs, assuming that the person behind the study could be trusted to know the true differences between "left" and "right." Also, they'd have to understand the limitations of political knowledge that all Witnesses receive only through specific target-driven sources. Many JWs would still think of "FoxNews" as right, MSNBC as left, and CNN/ABC/CBS/NYTimes as generally neutral. In fact all these sources have their own interests which are often hyper-partisan, but often go far beyond "left" and "right." It would surprise most Witnesses, and much of the world, to see just how many interests of the "left" and "right"overlap in the very areas where most see them as different.

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On 12/4/2018 at 4:05 PM, Anna said:

Here is the official website for the Bilderberg Meetings:

    Hello guest!

Assuming that most of us will not go there, I'll quote some relevant portions:

----the rest of this post quotes from Bilderberg---

About Bilderberg Meetings

Since its inaugural meeting in 1954, Bilderberg has been an annual forum for informal discussions, designed to foster dialogue between Europe and North America. Every year, between 120-150 political leaders and experts from industry, finance, academia and the media are invited to take part in the meeting. About two thirds of the participants come from Europe and the rest from North America; one third from politics and government and the rest from other fields. The meeting is a forum for informal discussions about megatrends and major issues facing the world. The meetings are held under the Chatham House Rule, which states that participants are free to use the information received, but neither the identity nor the affiliation of the speaker(s) nor of any other participant may be revealed. Thanks to the private nature of the meeting, the participants are not bound by the conventions of their office or by pre-agreed positions. As such, they can take time to listen, reflect and gather insights. There is no detailed agenda, no resolutions are proposed, no votes are taken, and no policy statements are issued.

Bilderberg Meeting 2018

The 66th Bilderberg Meeting to take place from 7 - 10 June 2018 in Turin, Italy

TURIN, 5 JUNE 2018 –The 66th Bilderberg Meeting is set to take place from 7 - 10 June 2018 in Turin, Italy. As of today, 131 participants from 23 countries have confirmed their attendance. As ever, a diverse group of political leaders and experts from industry, finance, academia and the media has been invited. The list of participants is available on www.bilderbergmeetings.org.

The key topics for discussion this year include:

  1. Populism in Europe
  2. The inequality challenge
  3. The future of work
  4. Artificial intelligence
  5. The US before midterms
  6. Free trade
  7. US world leadership
  8. Russia
  9. Quantum computing
  10. Saudi Arabia and Iran
  11. The “post-truth” world
  12. Current events

Founded in 1954, the Bilderberg Meeting is an annual conference designed to foster dialogue between Europe and North America. Every year, between 120-140 political leaders and experts from industry, finance, academia and the media are invited to take part in the conference. About two thirds of the participants come from Europe and the rest from North America; approximately a quarter from politics and government and the rest from other fields.

The conference is a forum for informal discussions about major issues facing the world. The meetings are held under the Chatham House Rule, which states that participants are free to use the information received, but neither the identity nor the affiliation of the speaker(s) nor any other participant may be revealed.

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Just out of interest, what is the whole point of this topic ?  We all know that Satan is in control of the 'world' and that we  'should' be in the last days -ish.  And I thought JW's were supposed to be 'no part of this world'.  To an uneducated person like me it does seem to be a side track / smoke screen, um, just like politicians use :) 

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@JW Insider

hence real world leaders prefer an anonymous forum to learn from each other.  

Whouldathunk?

the USA was also formed by anonymous writers such as in The Federalist Papers

 

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On 12/5/2018 at 3:00 PM, Anna said:

Most of those 1 percenters can print money, legally, because they own banks, so they dictate the amount you need, to be the 1%.

This is a false statement. But the reasons that it is false could make someone think things are better -- or much, much worse.

Most of the 1% think they are fairly regular people in the upper middle class. Many JWs are in the top 1%. A Witness family that I know in our congregation is a single black mother (divorced) who has been raising 2 daughters and 4 dogs. The house is worth about $450,000 with the mortgage paid off. She didn't graduate college, but worked her way up into a vice presidency in a division of a ritzy international maker of jewelry/perfume/etc. She's been in this job more than 10 years. The job pays about $225,000 plus benefits and bonuses worth another $50,000. She has saved well for her two daughters, one of whom also makes about $100,000.

This household, for the entire USA, has made it into the top 1%. This sister is in the top 1%. When she retires, she will probably remain in the top 1% for several more years, or drop to 2-3% depending on how much she spends on her daughters' weddings, their cars, gifts, etc. She will still be in the top 1% of our city, and our county and our region.

What you were describing, might better be applied to the "top 1% of the 1%" (shades of Bernie Sanders).

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1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

And I thought JW's were supposed to be 'no part of this world'.  To an uneducated person like me it does seem to be a side track

It's definitely a side-track. But it's an interesting one to some people. Also, I see that this topic was in a religiously neutral part of the forum, and an admin has now  moved it into the "Jehovah's Witnesses Public Club."

To me, this will make it interesting because of how politically-influenced our own prophetic explanations have been over the years. Russell himself wrote to the President of the United States to tell him that Filipinos were lazy and that we (USA) should give a large portion of the Philippines to Japan. Rutherford was constantly involved in the political trends of his day. In fact, Rutherford, wrote to Hitler to tell him that he thought that what Hitler was "preaching" in the early 1930's was kind of like a political expression of what the kingdom of God stood for, and therefore, Rutherford expressed appreciation for what Hitler was saying. This only lasted a short time because Hitler didn't buy it. In fact, Rutherford for a short time also stated that the League of Nations was like a political expression of the Kingdom of God on earth. That only lasted a few months. But he was famous for taking sides between capitalists and labor, and just like Russell, predicted that the chaos of Armageddon would be triggered by a clash between the interests of Capitalism and Labor's interest in social justice. This developed into the idea of the West (Capitalists) being the key representatives in the King of the South, and the socialist/communist powers being the key representatives of the King of the North.

Watching this idea develop between the old Daniel book (Your Will be Done on Earth) and the Babylon book and the new Ezekiel book is EXTREMELY interesting to me.

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1 hour ago, admin said:

the USA was also formed by anonymous writers such as in The Federalist Papers

Interesting. I always think of just Jay, Hamilton and Madison, but forgot about "Publius."

  • Google/Wiki: The Federalist Papers are a series of 85 essays arguing in support of the United States Constitution. Alexander Hamilton, James Madison, and John Jay were the authors behind the pieces, and the three men wrote collectively under the name of Publius.

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39 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

It's definitely a side-track. But it's an interesting one to some people. Also, I see that this topic was in a religiously neutral part of the forum, and an admin has now  moved it into the "Jehovah's Witnesses Public Club."

To me, this will make it interesting because of how politically-influenced our own prophetic explanations have been over the years. Russell himself wrote to the President of the United States to tell him that Filipinos were lazy and that we (USA) should give a large portion of the Philippines to Japan. Rutherford was constantly involved in the political trends of his day. In fact, Rutherford, wrote to Hitler to tell him that he thought that what Hitler was "preaching" in the early 1930's was kind of like a political expression of what the kingdom of God stood for, and therefore, Rutherford expressed appreciation for what Hitler was saying. This only lasted a short time because Hitler didn't buy it. In fact, Rutherford for a short time also stated that the League of Nations was like a political expression of the Kingdom of God on earth. That only lasted a few months. But he was famous for taking sides between capitalists and labor, and just like Russell, predicted that the chaos of Armageddon would be triggered by a clash between the interests of Capitalism and Labor's interest in social justice. This developed into the idea of the West (Capitalists) being the key representatives in the King of the South, and the socialist/communist powers being the key representatives of the King of the North.

Watching this idea develop between the old Daniel book (Your Will be Done on Earth) and the Babylon book and the new Ezekiel book is EXTREMELY interesting to me.

And Rutherford was supposed to a be one of the human foundation stones of the JW Org ?  Hum, well it makes me distrust the Org even more now. Yes it could be argued that he was right back at the beginning and still 'learning', but surely he would have know to 'be no part of the world'.  They broke away from what was supposed to be 'false religion', only to keep meddling in it through politics it seems. 

It actually does make me wonder what the GB / WT / Upper end of the JW Org are meddling in right now. They don't seem to learn much from past mistakes. 

Yes keep the info coming folks, it makes for better understanding for simple folk like me.  Oh what a tangled web they weave..... 

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2 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Just out of interest, what is the whole point of this topic ?  We all know that Satan is in control of the 'world' and that we  'should' be in the last days -ish.  And I thought JW's were supposed to be 'no part of this world'.  To an uneducated person like me it does seem to be a side track / smoke screen, um, just like politicians use :) 

Yes of course, Satan is in control of the world, and that perfectly explains the "mess", but by discussing these things we are not making ourselves a part of it are we? Not only that, but notice that my reason for my initial comment was because I have someone who is interested in the Bible, but who is actually involved in one sector of what we are discussing. The reason for me to "educate" myself, at least with what the various terminology means, is so that I can better understand what this person is talking about. If I have no idea, then how can I address anything they say properly? Besides, there is no harm in educating ourselves, no matter what it is. Being ignorant can make someone believe things are false to be true, or conversely, things that are true they may believe are false,  and that in turn can lead to bad decisions and as a consequence a host of other undesirable things. So I don't think anyone is trying to sidetrack or smokescreen. On the contrary, these kind of conversations help to establish facts. No one knows everything, so although you say you are uneducated, you probably know a host of things others don't. I wouldn't say I am educated, but I do have a thirst for knowledge, and I crave facts :) Of course a Christian's prime focus should be in gaining accurate knowledge about God and his purpose. That's a given.

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@Anna Very well explained, thank you. 

As for me knowing anything :) um. There is a song i think that says something like 

'The more I learn the less i know' And my problem now is retaining anything in my head. Memory loss I presume. Plus the problem of not knowing what is truth and what is lies. 

I once, not long ago, wrote on my Facebook page, The one thing I've learnt in life is that i don't know the truth about anything

I wish you well with your 'possible new bible student' and with your gaining of knowledge, political or otherwise. 

 

 

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5 hours ago, JW Insider said:

This is a false statement. But the reasons that it is false could make someone think things are better -- or much, much worse.

Most of the 1% think they are fairly regular people in the upper middle class. Many JWs are in the top 1%. A Witness family that I know in our congregation is a single black mother (divorced) who has been raising 2 daughters and 4 dogs. The house is worth about $450,000 with the mortgage paid off. She didn't graduate college, but worked her way up into a vice presidency in a ritzy international maker of jewelry/perfume/etc. She's been in this job more than 10 years. The job pays about $225,000 plus benefits and bonuses worth another $50,000. She has saved well for her two daughters, one of whom also makes about $100,000.

This household, for the entire USA, has made it into the top 1%. This sister is in the top 1%. When she retires, she will probably remain in the top 1% for several more years, or drop to 2-3% depending on how much she spends on her daughters' weddings, their cars, gifts, etc. She will still be in the top 1% of our city, and our county and our region.

What you were describing, might better be applied to the "top 1% of the 1%" (shades of Bernie Sanders).

I guess that’s what the original post was asking; “how much money do you have to have to be the 1%”.

I must have understood the question wrong. I was thinking of those who own about 50% of the world’s wealth. So of course who came to my mind were the top wealthiest people in the world, those who have the monopoly over much of the worlds trade etc. and I am sure your friend is not among them, although she has plenty of money.  So yes, maybe what I was describing was not 1% but the 1% of the 1% xD (you know I am not too good with numbers). To be honest I really thought that the 1% were a lot richer. From your description I know quite a number of friends who fit that bracket too. Plus ones in the world. But I never think of them as being in the 1%. My son has just finished a job for someone who is building a $15 million house. I asked my son what this guy did, and he said he was the owner and manufacturer of oak barrels (for bourbon). I wasn't thinking of him in the 1% either. On the other hand, my husband was at a conference and got to talk to Warren Buffet, now that's a different story in my opinion...

 

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5 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Yes it could be argued that he was right back at the beginning and still 'learning', but surely he would have know to 'be no part of the world'.

You might be stating something so obvious that the Watchtower has explicitly used this as one reason for a recent change in doctrine (only 5 years old) that states that the GB/FDS* only counts from 1919 onward. Previously, we said it was from 33 CE onward and would thus have included the indiscretions of Russell and a few of Rutherford's. The new doctrine now leaves Russell completely out of the picture. Also, Rutherford's time of saying how the League of Nations was 'wonderful and awesome' changed in just a matter of months, just before the beginning of 1919.

*** w91 6/1 p. 13 par. 14 The Spiritual Drunkards—Who Are They? ***

  • In 1919 she was among the foremost promoters of the League of Nations. While Jesus said that Christians would be no part of the world, Christendom’s leaders cultivate relationships with political leaders.

*** ip-2 chap. 13 pp. 184-185 par. 9 “Cry Out Joyfully in Unison”! ***

  • When the Greater Cyrus, Jesus Christ, freed God’s covenant people from captivity to Babylon the Great in 1919, they came to a better understanding of Jehovah’s requirements. They had already cleansed themselves of many teachings of Christendom that have their roots in pre-Christian paganism, such as the Trinity, immortality of the soul, and eternal torment in a fiery hell. Now they set out to rid themselves of all traces of Babylonish influence. They also came to realize the importance of maintaining strict neutrality regarding this world’s partisan affairs.

*** kj chap. 18 p. 346 par. 28 Resurrection to Unity in a “Garden of Eden” ***

  • Then in the liberation year of 1919 the faithful survivors of World War I reunited with the one objective, namely, to be loyal to Jehovah’s reigning King, Jesus Christ, and to preach world wide “this good news of the kingdom.” Jehovah forgave their transgressions and cleansed them of the “dungy idols” of worldly nationalism and other religiously disgusting things.

 

 

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11 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Assuming that most of us will not go there, I'll quote some relevant portions:

----the rest of this post quotes from Bilderberg---

About Bilderberg Meetings

Since its inaugural meeting in 1954, Bilderberg has been an annual forum for informal discussions, designed to foster dialogue between Europe and North America. Every year, between 120-150 political leaders and experts from industry, finance, academia and the media are invited to take part in the meeting. About two thirds of the participants come from Europe and the rest from North America; one third from politics and government and the rest from other fields. The meeting is a forum for informal discussions about megatrends and major issues facing the world. The meetings are held under the Chatham House Rule, which states that participants are free to use the information received, but neither the identity nor the affiliation of the speaker(s) nor of any other participant may be revealed. Thanks to the private nature of the meeting, the participants are not bound by the conventions of their office or by pre-agreed positions. As such, they can take time to listen, reflect and gather insights. There is no detailed agenda, no resolutions are proposed, no votes are taken, and no policy statements are issued.

Bilderberg Meeting 2018

The 66th Bilderberg Meeting to take place from 7 - 10 June 2018 in Turin, Italy

TURIN, 5 JUNE 2018 –The 66th Bilderberg Meeting is set to take place from 7 - 10 June 2018 in Turin, Italy. As of today, 131 participants from 23 countries have confirmed their attendance. As ever, a diverse group of political leaders and experts from industry, finance, academia and the media has been invited. The list of participants is available on www.bilderbergmeetings.org.

The key topics for discussion this year include:

  1. Populism in Europe
  2. The inequality challenge
  3. The future of work
  4. Artificial intelligence
  5. The US before midterms
  6. Free trade
  7. US world leadership
  8. Russia
  9. Quantum computing
  10. Saudi Arabia and Iran
  11. The “post-truth” world
  12. Current events

Founded in 1954, the Bilderberg Meeting is an annual conference designed to foster dialogue between Europe and North America. Every year, between 120-140 political leaders and experts from industry, finance, academia and the media are invited to take part in the conference. About two thirds of the participants come from Europe and the rest from North America; approximately a quarter from politics and government and the rest from other fields.

The conference is a forum for informal discussions about major issues facing the world. The meetings are held under the Chatham House Rule, which states that participants are free to use the information received, but neither the identity nor the affiliation of the speaker(s) nor any other participant may be revealed.

Also here are the participants of this years' meeting:

Know anyone? xD

CHAIRMAN STEERING COMMITTEE

Achleitner, Paul M. (DEU), Chairman Supervisory Board, Deutsche Bank AG; Treasurer, Foundation Bilderberg Meetings

Agius, Marcus (GBR), Chairman, PA Consulting Group

Alesina, Alberto (ITA), Nathaniel Ropes Professor of Economics, Harvard University

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8 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

 And my problem now is retaining anything in my head.

Don't worry. You are not the only one. If I remembered everything I read I would be extremely well educated and knowledgeable. As it is, I only retain half the stuff I read. I remember the gist, but nothing that I could explain to anyone else, so really it's a bit useless.

8 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Plus the problem of not knowing what is truth and what is lies. 

Well that's up to you to find out. "The truth is out there" xD. But seriously, we may never know the truth about everything, but there are certain fundamental things we need to know the truth about, and should be interested in finding out the truth, especially when it pertains to God and to those who claim to represent him here on earth.

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13 hours ago, JW Insider said:

You might be stating something so obvious that the Watchtower has explicitly used this as one reason for a recent change in doctrine (only 5 years old) that states that the GB/FDS* only counts from 1919 onward. Previously, we said it was from 33 CE onward and would thus have included the indiscretions of Russell and a few of Rutherford's. The new doctrine now leaves Russell completely out of the picture. Also, Rutherford's time of saying how the League of Nations was 'wonderful and awesome' changed in just a matter of months, just before the beginning of 1919.

*** w91 6/1 p. 13 par. 14 The Spiritual Drunkards—Who Are They? ***

  • In 1919 she was among the foremost promoters of the League of Nations. While Jesus said that Christians would be no part of the world, Christendom’s leaders cultivate relationships with political leaders.

*** ip-2 chap. 13 pp. 184-185 par. 9 “Cry Out Joyfully in Unison”! ***

  • When the Greater Cyrus, Jesus Christ, freed God’s covenant people from captivity to Babylon the Great in 1919, they came to a better understanding of Jehovah’s requirements. They had already cleansed themselves of many teachings of Christendom that have their roots in pre-Christian paganism, such as the Trinity, immortality of the soul, and eternal torment in a fiery hell. Now they set out to rid themselves of all traces of Babylonish influence. They also came to realize the importance of maintaining strict neutrality regarding this world’s partisan affairs.

*** kj chap. 18 p. 346 par. 28 Resurrection to Unity in a “Garden of Eden” ***

  • Then in the liberation year of 1919 the faithful survivors of World War I reunited with the one objective, namely, to be loyal to Jehovah’s reigning King, Jesus Christ, and to preach world wide “this good news of the kingdom.” Jehovah forgave their transgressions and cleansed them of the “dungy idols” of worldly nationalism and other religiously disgusting things.

 

 

I'm laughing, sorry. But I don't know where you get all your info'. It's great, thank you. 

So basically every time the GB discovers something they know is wrong or bad, they make up an excuse for it. 

Quote "the Watchtower has explicitly used this as one reason for a recent change in doctrine... " 

doctrine

/ˈdɒktrɪn/
noun
  1. a belief or set of beliefs held and taught by a Church, political party, or other group.
    "the doctrine of predestination"
     
    indoctrination
    /ɪnˌdɒktrɪˈneɪʃ(ə)n/
    noun
    1. the process of teaching a person or group to accept a set of beliefs uncritically.
      "I would never subject children to religious indoctrination"
       
      You seem to be proving more and more that it is all false and that the GB are not the Faithful Slave at all.  I've no idea where it will all end, but for sure that GB have to be removed. 

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19 hours ago, JW Insider said:

In fact, Rutherford for a short time also stated that the League of Nations was like a political expression of the Kingdom of God on earth. 

the Federal Council of Churches stated it. If Rutherford seconded it, how is that a political statement? It sounds like a no-brainer to me. Even here we have not yet reached the point where the kingdom means that, if we are good, we go to heaven when we die.

Isn't the kingdom government of the earth by God? Wasn't the League of Nations, in principle as never materialized before, government of the earth by man? The two are polar opposites.

I like especially a marked divergence in Rutherford's early tenure. The Federal Council made their ringing endorsement of earth rule by man almost at the same time that Witnesses said 'Advertise, advertise, advertise, the king and his kingdom.'

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@Anna Quote "but there are certain fundamental things we need to know the truth about, and should be interested in finding out the truth, especially when it pertains to God and to those who claim to represent him here on earth."

 Read @JW Insider comment above which i have just answered on.  
 
When the GB keep 'moving the goalposts', making excuses, telling lies, then how is anyone supposed to know truth ? 
 
There is a scripture : Luke 10 v 21
 
 In that very hour he became overjoyed in the holy spirit and said: “I publicly praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have carefully hidden these things from wise and intellectual ones and have revealed them to young children. Yes, O Father, because this is the way you approved.
If we were the 'young children' to whom things were revealed, that would be wonderful, but i don't think we are.
At the time of that prayer, Jesus was praying to thank God for revealing things to the disciples/apostles, the Anointed ones. 
And we should be 'clinging to the skirt of a Jew', the Anointed ones. But the true Anointed are not known to us. So how is truth supposed to be known to us ? 
 
I do not want to pretend to know truth 
 

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8 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

I do not want to pretend to know truth 

No, you definitely don’t want to pretend, but have never been convinced of what you believed was the truth and later changed your perception of it, and adjusted it, in the light of more information? I think we have all done that. It seems like you naively think that truth will just pop up the first time, or that it will be miraculously revealed. On the contrary, it's hard work. The Bible says we have to search for it, because it’s a hidden treasure (Prov 2:5, 6). So finding the truth isn’t a sudden revelation, it’s a journey, and on the way we may stumble over rocks, have to climb hills and descend valleys, before we even know where to dig.  But like I said before, fundamental truths (God’s name, God’s personality, God’s purpose for mankind, the way God wants us to live etc.) are there; so that people seeking those truths are able to go to the “mountain of Jehovah”  Isaiah 2:2,3.

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1 minute ago, Anna said:

No, you definitely don’t want to pretend, but have never been convinced of what you believed was the truth and later changed your perception of it, and adjusted it, in the light of more information? I think we have all done that. It seems like you naively think that truth will just pop up the first time. The Bible says we have to search for it, discover it, because it’s a hidden treasure (Prov 2:5, 6). Finding the truth isn’t a sudden revelation, it’s a journey, and on the way we may stumble over rocks, have to climb hills and descend valleys, before we even know where to dig.  But like I said before, fundamental truths (God’s name, God’s personality, God’s purpose for mankind, the way God wants us to live etc.) are there; so that people seeking those truths are able to go to the “mountain of Jehovah”  Isaiah 2:2,3.

In that case we wouldn't need an organisation and definitely would not need a Governing Body to 'teach us'  lies.  You make it sound poetic, almost romantic in you description, but it's not. 

God's name : YHWH or the Hebrew HWHY left to right.  So where is Jehovah in that ? Why not Yahweh ?  Who started the name Jehovah ? A Catholic Monk maybe ? 

And as for the way God wants us to live. The JW Org is way out of line in that case. 

I have to disagree with you completely Anna.  Zechariah 8 v 23

 “This is what Jehovah of armies says, ‘In those days ten men out of all the languages of the nations will take hold, yes, they will take firm hold of the robe of a Jew, saying: “We want to go with you, for we have heard that God is with you people.

It is not for us to dig, we do not have the guidance of God's Holy Spirit. Only the Anointed have that guidance. The Bible was written with Holy Spirit and only Holy Spirit will decipher it. 

Luke 24 v 45  Then he (Jesus) opened up their minds fully to grasp the meaning of the Scriptures, 

BUT they already had those scriptures. They had read those scriptures. So why didn't they understand them ?  Obviously because they needed Holy Spirit and guidance to understand them. 

I think this proves my point. Now we should have the anointed to open up the Scriptures to us, but we do not know who the Anointed are. Why ? Because the Governing Body of JW org has silenced the true Anointed ones. 

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1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Now we should have the anointed to open up the Scriptures to us, but we do not know who the Anointed are. Why ? Because the Governing Body of JW org has silenced the true Anointed ones. 

I do not believe Jehovah would allow some human/humans to silence his anointed, especially as you say, the anointed would be of paramount importance in disclosing the truth about Him in the “last days”. I am satisfied that these fundamental truths have been disclosed. I do not find them all together in one place anywhere among Christendom’s religions and sects, I don’t find them in Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, Judaism or any other religion but Jehovah’s Witnesses.

To your other point, saying that we cannot be sure how God’s name was pronounced, and why not call him Yahweh etc. well sure I would call him Yahweh but I speak English, and in English it is Jehovah. Many names are written and pronounced quite differently depending on what language you speak. So concerns and arguments about the exact pronunciation of God’s name are moot and kind of pointless really.

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11 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

I think this proves my point. Now we should have the anointed to open up the Scriptures to us, but we do not know who the Anointed are. Why ? Because the Governing Body of JW org has silenced the true Anointed ones. 

Hi John Butler, what do you think of my posts? Because I am doing my best to open up scriptures here on this forum. And I confess do be one of the anointed.

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On 12/5/2018 at 11:36 AM, Kosonen said:

Look how blind God's servant was in the past. Looks like the same repeats time and again. (I try hard that I would not fall for the same error, by following Jesus' words as much as I can).

 

They fell into idolatry, over and over, leaving the true worship of God, just as the anointed have done by supporting a worldly organization.  This organization has convinced them of its existence by stating it had its roots in the first century and established in Jerusalem by the apostles.  Yet, those same apostles accomplished their ministry through the direction of Holy Spirit, not through men. Acts 13:2,4; 8:26,27,29; Gal 1:11,12,16,17   Today’s anointed can barely move a muscle without the GB/Harlots and elders not anointed, telling them what and what not to do. They are certainly “trapped, plundered and pillaged”, as a people.  I can imagine how the apostles would have dealt with that.  3 John 9,10  

    Hello guest!

 The anointed also, are joining in spiritual adultery/harlotry by not listening to the Father and Christ’s direction through Holy Spirit that was placed in their heart upon their anointing.  I did the same thing.   Gal 4:6; 2 Cor 1:21,22      

    Hello guest!

 They refuse to hear what Holy Spirit can tell them.  John 14:16,26    Just as the scripture brings out that you quoted, they do not walk “in God’s way” but choose to remain blind to the direction they are to go, which is to join Christ and his “restored” Temple priests/”living stones”.   Their plundering is symbolic, being cut off from Christ and the Body, but very real through the practices of men who have been given false authority to judge them. Rom 14:4   God has allowed this to come upon spiritual “Israel” – Jacob.  By listening to men and not to Christ, they have sinned against Him.  

    Hello guest!

 

Rev 2:12-16 “To the angel of the church in Pergamum write:

These are the words of him who has the sharp, double-edged sword.13 I know where you live—where Satan has his throne. Yet you remain true to my name…

14 Nevertheless, I have a few things against you: There are some among you who hold to the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to entice the Israelites to sin so that they ate food sacrificed to idols and committed sexual immorality15 Likewise, you also have those who hold to the teaching of the Nicolaitans16 Repent therefore! Otherwise, I will soon come to you and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth."

Just briefly looking into this teaching of the Nicolaitans, we find it signifies, “victorious over the people”, “domineerers of the people”

Here’s more:

The two names (Nicolaitans, Balaam) have very similar meanings in their respective languages: “Balaam is derived from two Hebrew words, 

    Hello guest!
 [bālaʿ] (‘he swallows’) and 
    Hello guest!
 [ʿām] (‘people’). Interestingly, according to the derivative meanings of the names, the two groups troubling this church [Pergamos] were ‘swallowers of the people’ (i.e., the Balaamites) and ‘conquerors of the people’ (i.e., the Nicolaitans).” If the similar meaning of their names is significant and their mention in adjoining verses in the letter to Pergamos is intended to show a relationship, then it is thought that the licentious tendencies of the Nicolaitans might be understood in light of the doctrine of Balaam.     
    Hello guest!

The elders, through direction of the GB/wicked slave are “conquers of the people”, which signifies the trademark of the “Man of Lawlessness” standing in the Temple of God. 2 Thess 2:,4 They have “swallowed” the true priesthood and supplanted themselves over God’s Temple stones and conquered their position by boastfully saying, “Rather than challenge their authority, we truly appreciate our hardworking elders!”.  This is under the ironic Watchtower subheading, “MUST YOU MEN ALSO TRY TO SECURE THE PRIESTHOOD?” of the WT 02/8/1 entitled, “LOYAL SUBMIT TO GODLY AUTHORITY”

The GB and elders are NOT submitting to Godly authority, but doing exactly what the subheading asks.  This is a typical twist that Satan is so good at braiding together. 

  They are “swallowed” by such captivity reflected in the prayerful cry of Jonah while in the fish.   Jonah 2:1-10; Isa 1:12-20  Only those who reject this rule, as we both have done, can relate to the plight of God’s inheritance.  Jesus said he will “fight against them with the sword of my mouth”.   

And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thess 2:8

Ps.55:21; Heb.4:12; Rev.2:12; John12:48; Rev.19:15          

    Hello guest!

But, dear Kosonen, turning your eyes to the activities in the world of politics, is causing you to reject the place of “worship” that God has personally set up through His Son.  You are a “living stone” of that Temple.  Surely you desire to become one with its members?    The Temple stones have been brought to ruin in the Wt.  This is no different than what has happened in the past with Israel’s literal temples.  That is the scenario that relates to history, only spiritual.  “Gentile” elders – “Nicolatians” in characteristic form - have trampled God’s Temple stones, while upholding the Watchtower idol, sacrificing words of “praise” in its behalf.  Rev 13:4

Please, elders!  Consider your precarious position before the Father and Christ!  Have you been anointed by God?  Or, have you been “anointed” by the GB?  Does your appointment usurp the appointment made by God?

Kosonen, could it be you who ‘sees many things’, “but you do not keep watch. You open your ears, but you do not listen.”?

Look at these scriptures with a “new” spiritual eye on the living Temple of God (Luke 5:37,38)

Deut 12

“These are the decrees and laws you must be careful to follow in the land that the Lord, the God of your ancestors, has given you to possess—as long as you live in the land. Destroy completely all the places on the high mountains, on the hills and under every spreading tree, where the nations you are dispossessing worship their gods. Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones and burn their Asherah poles in the fire; cut down the idols of their gods and wipe out their names from those places.

You must not worship the Lord your God in their wayBut you are to seek the place the Lord your God will choose from among all your tribes to put his Name there for his dwelling.”   Deut 12:1-5

“Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?   If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.    ” 1 Cor 3:16,17

“The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will they leave it. I will write on them the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on them my new name.”  Rev 3:12

 

Deut 12 - To that place you must go; there bring your burnt offerings and sacrifices, your tithes and special gifts, what you have vowed to give and your freewill offerings, and the firstborn of your herds and flocks. Deut 12:6

“Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father.                                           But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. 24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.” John 4:21,23,24

“you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.”  1 Pet 2:5

Deut 12 -  “ There, in the presence of the Lord your God, you and your families shall eat and shall rejoice in everything you have put your hand to, because the Lord your God has blessed you.

You are not to do as we do here today, everyone doing as they see fit,since you have not yet reached the resting place and the inheritance the Lord your God is giving you.”                    

The apostles focused on the anointed and the believers with them.  Jesus set the foundation of the Temple and Truth, teaching them to worship “in spirit”.  Today, the remnant must readjust their personal spiritual damage, and damage to the Temple caused by Satan’s deceit.  Instead of concentrating on events that may or may not happen in his world, we are to help each other be “restored”, even though at the resistance of those who held power over us.  Nehemiah 1:4-9;2:17-20     

    Hello guest!

 1 Pet 4:17-19; Matt 7:13,14; 1 Cor 5:12,13a   

    Hello guest!

“Destroy completely all the high mountains”. Deut 12:2 The highest mountain that has come against the Temple of God is the “mountainlike organization” which has successfully defeated the anointed through DECEPTION.  Deception takes them down and I know you can’t dismiss that.   Please, don’t be gullible by thinking what you literally see happening in the world, is the fulfillment of Revelation.  Surely you are not dismissing everything that the apostles in Christ taught us beginning with the foundation of the Temple? 

How is the mountain “destroyed”?  God’s word is like “fire”, which I think you’ve brought out before, and put in the mouths of His chosen ones.  This fire brings about judgment against such a mountain. Heb 1:7; Matt 3:11; Acts 2:3,4 -  

    Hello guest!

 

I hope you see that our focus must be on each other, the Temple, as brought out in Deuteronomy, and by Christ.  The anointed are to walk in Christs footsteps closer in fulfillment than we may realize.  We face the leaders of our own people who have placed “heavy burdens” on us and all JWs. Matt 23:4  We turn to the new true Temple of God built on the chief cornerstone, as did the apostles.  Satan will busy your mind with his worldly activities just to divert your attention from the perilous situation the “living stones” of God’s Temple already face.

If we do not “go to the place of God’s dwelling” will we reach the “resting place” and the inheritance set before us?

“Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it. For we also have had the good news proclaimed to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because they did not share the faith of those who obeyedNow we who have believed enter that rest, just as God has said,

“So I declared on oath in my anger,
    ‘They shall never enter my rest.’”

And yet his works have been finished since the creation of the world.

Therefore since it still remains for some to enter that rest, and since those who formerly had the good news proclaimed to them did not go in because of their disobedienceGod again set a certain day, calling it “Today.” This he did when a long time later he spoke through David, as in the passage already quoted:

“Today, if you hear his voice,
    do not harden your hearts.”

For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God10 for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from their works, just as God did from his. 11 Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will perish by following their example of disobedience.

12 For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. 13 Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account.

14 Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has ascended into heaven,[

    Hello guest!
] Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess. 15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet he did not sin. 16 Let us then approach God’s throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.”  Heb 4:1-3,6-14

Where is God’s throne? 

“But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly.   to the church of the firstborn, (the anointed Body of Christ)

whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect24 to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.”  Heb 12:22-24

We come to the Temple of God. We proclaim how the Temple has been transgressed by the already present “Man of Lawlessness” – the elder body.  Need it be bigger and more obvious from the world of politics?  No! It only takes one person to crush another; yet, the army of elders is much more expansive and impressive than the number of anointed ones.  Rev 9:3-6; Joel 1:6,7  Through a Wicked Slave assuming the role of “High Priest”, it has thoroughly crushed the position of the anointed, making their identity as a priesthood, nonexistent!

It is our ministry during the last days.  Rev 11:1-3; Matt 10:23; 24:15,16  

    Hello guest!

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On 12/6/2018 at 9:11 PM, Anna said:

Also here are the participants of this years' meeting:

Know anyone? xD

Oddly enough, I do know one of them. Rebecca Newberger Goldstein lives just around the corner from my daughter and son-in-law. My sister-in-law teaches at NYU, which allows me to go to lectures (I rarely do) where she (Goldstein) was invited as speaker at one and a round-table-member at one. From what I can tell, she would be the closest thing to a "religious" voice in the list of Bilderberg participants.

My wife, as a district level director of NY public school programs had also attended a seminar where Peggy Noonan spoke, a columnist I don't like.  And on a shelf somewhere among 1,000s of others, we still have a book signed by Noonan. I suppose she was doing seminar lectures as a more discreet form of a book tour, even though she was giving them away at this point.

I get the sense that this Bilderberg thing is a kind of think-tank to manage expectations about (and to protect) Western interests in the face of events and trends that might disturb the peace and profitability of those same Western interests. David Petraeus? Henry Kissinger? James Baker?

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On 12/6/2018 at 11:40 AM, JOHN BUTLER said:

And Rutherford was supposed to a be one of the human foundation stones of the JW Org ?  Hum, well it makes me distrust the Org even more now.

I have never heard this expression "human foundation stones of the JW. org, but I know what you mean. However, I see that you still have some trust in the organization. You must have at least had some to be able to say that it is now less.

But this wasn't the point. I think people make too much of the humans who have been used and involved in the history of the Org. It is what it is, and for me the organization represents the most respectable attempt in recent history to present an international teaching ministry, making Bible teaching available for free to nearly the entire world. It's a teaching that is consistent, gives hope, encourages high morality, and presents a Christianity that has excellent advantages over other forms. You may disagree over some of the basic fundamental teachings of JWs, I happen to agree with the basics. I disagree with what I consider a lot of less significant issues, and for most of these disagreements, it means almost nothing in the scheme of things. There are a few moderately important issues that I disagree with, but I think these are also already on the way out. (I notice that, as an organization, we are almost able to laugh at ourselves with respect to some of these past errors and false doctrines. -- And, yes, one of the things I disagree with is our general inability to use the term "false doctrine" to refer to a past teaching that turned out to be false.)

I know your biggest issue, you said, was the child abuse issue, and I agree that it is big. Much bigger than most Witnesses realize. But as many have said, we don't produce pedophiles and child molesters. We may have needed big improvements in our processes, just as so many other institutions have needed. We should all push for more improvements even if this means exposing the seriousness of injustice to children, and exposing these issues to the light. But you sometimes give the impression that anytime a serious sin is seen in this organization that it means God has removed his blessing from all of us, especially the leadership. I don't expect so much out of the leadership as others, and from what I know, they are trying to do a good job going forward, and have a weakness in the area of admitting mistakes of the past. I think the only way we can see past the human error and focus on the leadership of Jesus under the headship of Jehovah, is to avoid putting the human leadership on so high a pedestal in the first place.

If we can see the human leadership as just as sinful and imperfect as the rest of us, this is a GOOD thing, in my opinion. And there are plenty of good reasons to make note of their imperfections and sinfulness. It's not to find fault and make you trust them less; it's to make us trust the leadership of Jesus and Jehovah, all the more.

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@Witness So then, assassination of the Governing Body of CCJW, and complete destruction of CCJW and Watchtower Inc, yes ? 

Sounds drastic ? Why ? Just think about what God allowed the Romans to do to Jerusalem. The Nation of Israel were God's chosen people. They disobeyed God and paid the price. So, the GB and CCJW  and  Wt Inc. .............  

However when is this gathering of the Anointed, proven Anointed that is, taking place ? 

I'm going back to  this :   TEN MEN CLINGING TO THE SKIRT OF A SPIRITUAL JEW. ..........  WHEN ? 

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On 12/7/2018 at 6:49 AM, JOHN BUTLER said:

So basically every time the GB discovers something they know is wrong or bad, they make up an excuse for it.

That has happened, but it's not what I said. There was a time when the focus was always on Russell and how great he was as one of the major historical contributors to the "faithful and discreet slave." We had a doctrine that claimed that there were always members of this faithful and discreet slave alive at any given time on the earth since the Christian congregation was formed just after Pentecost of 33 CE. 

In fact, there was a research assignment for history buffs that was supposed to become a part of the "Proclaimers" book, that was supposed to go into a lot more detail about some of the groups that our publications had identified in the past, who were typically persecuted for not believing in the Trinity (Arians, for example), and those who stood up against the powerful religious leaders of their time and tried to publish truths for wider distribution to everyone. The GB members behind this effort were so disappointed in the results that they dropped the idea from the "Proclaimers" book, and began to drop the teaching altogether, so that we rarely spoke any more about about Arius, Wycliffe, Tyndale, the Waldenses, etc. 

The focus of that book became a chance to show how Russell stood out among those he had learned from: Grew, Stetson, Brown, Miller, Paton, Seiss, Storrs, Barbour, etc. But even this effort began to show that Russell was rather eclectic, and was just as apt to pick up a wrong idea as a good idea and run with it. But the biggest "new" issue that was being learned about Russell was that so many of the early Bible Students who followed Russell were actually in an end-times chronoloy cult. This was not Russell's fault, but he had the kind of convincing personality that drew people to him. Rutherford was a Russellite cult member too for many years. But it was in 1919 that Rutherford realized this. If Rutherford had not used shrewd (and technically illegal) means to grasp the Watchtower organization from the majority of the Russellite leadership that Russell had chosen, then the Watchtower would probably still be just another Russellite "cult."

The real cut-off from Russell began in 1919, and it took another decade for Rutherford to completely figure out how to do that. And this is one of the reasons that the Watchtower today, since 2012, teaches that the true "faithful and discreet slave" no longer includes Russell, even though for many years up until 1919, Russell was had been considered to be the ONLY member of the "faithful and discreet slave."

I'm not saying that the current Governing Body necessarily did the right thing in identifying only themselves as the current FDS, but at least, since 2012, they have taken measures to remove much of the emphasis on Russell himself, by removing him from any identification with the  "faithful and discreet slave."

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22 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

God's name : YHWH or the Hebrew HWHY left to right.  So where is Jehovah in that ? Why not Yahweh ?  Who started the name Jehovah ? A Catholic Monk maybe ?

Anna and Outta Here have already said it and pointed to material that says it, and I'm sure you have heard the argument before while associating with Witnesses. But here it is again: there is a logical problem with your argument. God's name in Hebrew is YHWH, true, but this doesn't automatically mean that Yahweh is the correct pronunciation. Why not Yehowah? In fact, there are languages today where the most common pronunciation of the Divine Name is exactly that: Yehowah.

Admittedly this was influenced from English, and a major contributor to the popularization of that form of the name was a Catholic monk. But as Anna said, there are other names where we use a modern English or other modern-language equivalent. The name for Jeremiah was YRMYH. Do you argue,  why not Yarmayah? It's possible (though highly unlikely) that this was how it was pronounced. But some modern languages will pronounce it Yeremiah, even in the WTS publications in those languages. The divine name is a special case and perhaps this means we should give it special scholarly treatment in selecting the most likely pronunciation. However, even here, if it turned out to be Yahweh, that form in English would be Jahveh. We don't say Yeshuah, we say Jesus (because that form of the name Joshua had already been "hellenized" to Yesous.) Sometimes the change is even more significant, like Yakob to James or even Santiago.

To me, these arguments sound a bit like straining the gnat, but not very consistently.

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2 hours ago, JW Insider said:
On 12/6/2018 at 9:11 PM, Anna said:

Also here are the participants of this years' meeting:

Know anyone? xD

Oddly enough, I do know one of them. Rebecca Newberger Goldstein lives just around the corner from my daughter and son-in-law. My sister-in-law teaches at NYU, which allows me to go to lectures (I rarely do) where she (Goldstein) was invited as speaker at one and a round-table-member at one. From what I can tell, she would be the closest thing to a "religious" voice in the list of Bilderberg participants.

 

When I typed this question the thought did cross my mind, that probably JW Insider knows someone xD. Interesting.

I remember you saying your wife being the director of public school programs.

2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Peggy Noonan spoke, a columnist I don't like.

The group must like her a lot, since she is on the list for the past three years, lol.

2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

I get the sense that this Bilderberg thing is a kind of think-tank to manage expectations about (and to protect) Western interests in the face of events and trends that might disturb the peace and profitability of those same Western interests.

Yes. This is kind of how it is described on their "about" page. Think-tank is a good way of describing it. It reminds me of when I used to work for a Saudi ambassador. One of my jobs was to find and print interesting articles from think tank websites such as epc.eu.  I think the conspiracy theorists are trying to say that these meetings are organized in order to better take over the world eventually. Of course, any meetings of this type are unambiguously focused on as you say; protecting profitability. I am not surprised that people get suspicious about the ways of ensuring profitability.  As we know, "the love of money is a root of all sorts of injurious things".

I hope your trip to Warwick was a good one. Did anyone come up to you?

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12 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

I have never heard this expression "human foundation stones of the JW. org, but I know what you mean. However, I see that you still have some trust in the organization. You must have at least had some to be able to say that it is now less.

But this wasn't the point. I think people make too much of the humans who have been used and involved in the history of the Org. It is what it is, and for me the organization represents the most respectable attempt in recent history to present an international teaching ministry, making Bible teaching available for free to nearly the entire world. It's a teaching that is consistent, gives hope, encourages high morality, and presents a Christianity that has excellent advantages over other forms. You may disagree over some of the basic fundamental teachings of JWs, I happen to agree with the basics. I disagree with what I consider a lot of less significant issues, and for most of these disagreements, it means almost nothing in the scheme of things. There are a few moderately important issues that I disagree with, but I think these are also already on the way out. (I notice that, as an organization, we are almost able to laugh at ourselves with respect to some of these past errors and false doctrines. -- And, yes, one of the things I disagree with is our general inability to use the term "false doctrine" to refer to a past teaching that turned out to be false.)

I know your biggest issue, you said, was the child abuse issue, and I agree that it is big. Much bigger than most Witnesses realize. But as many have said, we don't produce pedophiles and child molesters. We may have needed big improvements in our processes, just as so many other institutions have needed. We should all push for more improvements even if this means exposing the seriousness of injustice to children, and exposing these issues to the light. But you sometimes give the impression that anytime a serious sin is seen in this organization that it means God has removed his blessing from all of us, especially the leadership. I don't expect so much out of the leadership as others, and from what I know, they are trying to do a good job going forward, and have a weakness in the area of admitting mistakes of the past. I think the only way we can see past the human error and focus on the leadership of Jesus under the headship of Jehovah, is to avoid putting the human leadership on so high a pedestal in the first place.

If we can see the human leadership as just as sinful and imperfect as the rest of us, this is a GOOD thing, in my opinion. And there are plenty of good reasons to make note of their imperfections and sinfulness. It's not to find fault and make you trust them less; it's to make us trust the leadership of Jesus and Jehovah, all the more.

@JW Insider That expression came from my own head. 'Human foundation stones'  Those two men R & R are sometimes put 'on high' and then sometimes 'disowned'. I find that funny. It seems they were once seen as part of the Faithful Slave and are now seen to be NOT of the Faithful Slave. 

Trust in the CCJW ?   Well you will know my personal history of course, so when my brother introduced me to the JW Org (as I tend to call it)  I found that it made sense and people were kind and helpful. However over the years the things I was first taught have been 'wiped out', and therefore things make less sense. And the fact that the Anointed have been pushed to one side and the GB have chosen to exalt themselves, by calling themselves the Faithful and discreet slave, whereas all of the Anointed were once the Faithful and discreet slave,  this shows a dictatorship within the JW org.  The Elders unfortunately are just Policemen, obeying orders from the GB through the 'chain of command'.  A few bits of the teachings are still 'sound' but the whole Organisation is in deep trouble, more so with God than with men. 

Quote 'encourages high morality'. UM questionable don't you think, in view of the massive amount of HIDDEN  Child Abuse Earthwide within the JW Org.   (and you will know i have some details of such a case within my ex-congregation). Then to hide the Child Abuse even more the GB start accusing adults (one male one female) of fornication, when NO WITNESSES  are needed to confirm it. Nice try at a diversion.  

Quote ; "(I notice that, as an organization, we are almost able to laugh at ourselves with respect to some of these past errors and false doctrines. ". UM, don't you consider the facts of collateral damage ? Do you laugh at the number of people you have stumbled by false teachings ? 

Quote : "we don't produce pedophiles and child molesters"  NO BUT THE ORGANISATION HIDES THEM WITHIN.  Refuses to hand over documents which could lead to Pedophiles being prosecuted and put in prison where they belong. And if a person needs mental care / help then giving info to authorities would help that person. And WHAT ABOUT THE VICTIMS ?  Do you think they are all liars ?  Do you think all of them Earthwide have made it all up just to get money from the Org ? 

Quote "We should all push for more improvements even if this means exposing the seriousness of injustice to children, and exposing these issues to the light."   I did i left the JW org, and that is what eveyone should have done.   Trying to 'push for improvement' whilst in the Org would get a person disfellowshipped for 'Causing division within the congregation'. My brother is an Elder, i asked his advice before i made my decision. 

Quote :" just as so many other institutions have needed ". Stop making comparisons. Your Org is supposed to be No part of the World, so why compare with others that are Part of the World.   

Quote :" that it means God has removed his blessing from all of us, especially the leadership. I don't expect so much out of the leadership .. 

Matthew 5 v 48  You must accordingly be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Quote : " it's to make us trust the leadership of Jesus and Jehovah, all the more. " If the GB came off of their pedestal and DID trust God and Jesus more then they wouldn't allow so many false teachings / lies in the Org. AND the GB would allow ALL of the Anointed to be recognised and be of the Faithful Slave. 

However, i am in agreement with others on here, that the GB are showing themselves to be the Wicked Slave class, mistreating the 'domestics'.  

In my opinion big changes are coming. The GB have to be removed, in any way that God chooses. The JW Org may have to be destroyed, if God chooses to do it, or to let it be done. As in the destruction of Jerusalem. 

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40 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

Anna and Outta Here have already said it and pointed to material that says it, and I'm sure you have heard the argument before while associating with Witnesses. But here it is again: there is a logical problem with your argument. God's name in Hebrew is YHWH, true, but this doesn't automatically mean that Yahweh is the correct pronunciation. Why not Yehowah? In fact, there are languages today where the most common pronunciation of the Divine Name is exactly that: Yehowah.

Admittedly this was influenced from English, and a major contributor to the popularization of that form of the name was a Catholic monk. But as Anna said, there are other names where we use a modern English or other modern-language equivalent. The name for Jeremiah was YRMYH. Do you argue,  why not Yarmayah? It's possible (though highly unlikely) that this was how it was pronounced. But some modern languages will pronounce it Yeremiah, even in the WTS publications in those languages. The divine name is a special case and perhaps this means we should give it special scholarly treatment in selecting the most likely pronunciation. However, even here, if it turned out to be Yahweh, that form in English would be Jahveh. We don't say Yeshuah, we say Jesus (because that form of the name Joshua had already been "hellenized" to Yesous.) Sometimes the change is even more significant, like Yakob to James or even Santiago.

To me, these arguments sound a bit like straining the gnat, but not very consistently.

My point was that Anna said it in such a 'matter of fact' way. God's name is Jehovah, no argument type of way. 

JW's are taught such and go out into the ministry and teach it as such. PARROTS, without questions. 

The only ones that would have any real idea of how God's name is to be pronounced are the truly Anointed ones. And that cannot be the GB of JW Org. Why ? Because of the way they have proved themselves to be the Wicked slave. 

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1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

That has happened, but it's not what I said. There was a time when the focus was always on Russell and how great he was as one of the major historical contributors to the "faithful and discreet slave." We had a doctrine that claimed that there were always members of this faithful and discreet slave alive at any given time on the earth since the Christian congregation was formed just after Pentecost of 33 CE. 

In fact, there was a research assignment for history buffs that was supposed to become a part of the "Proclaimers" book, that was supposed to go into a lot more detail about some of the groups that our publications had identified in the past, who were typically persecuted for not believing in the Trinity (Arians, for example), and those who stood up against the powerful religious leaders of their time and tried to publish truths for wider distribution to everyone. The GB members behind this effort were so disappointed in the results that they dropped the idea from the "Proclaimers" book, and began to drop the teaching altogether, so that we rarely spoke any more about about Arius, Wycliffe, Tyndale, the Waldenses, etc. 

The focus of that book became a chance to show how Russell stood out among those he had learned from: Grew, Stetson, Brown, Miller, Paton, Seiss, Storrs, Barbour, etc. But even this effort began to show that Russell was rather eclectic, and was just as apt to pick up a wrong idea as a good idea and run with it. But the biggest "new" issue that was being learned about Russell was that so many of the early Bible Students who followed Russell were actually in an end-times chronoloy cult. This was not Russell's fault, but he had the kind of convincing personality that drew people to him. Rutherford was a Russellite cult member too for many years. But it was in 1919 that Rutherford realized this. If Rutherford had not used shrewd (and technically illegal) means to grasp the Watchtower organization from the majority of the Russellite leadership that Russell had chosen, then the Watchtower would probably still be just another Russellite "cult."

The real cut-off from Russell began in 1919, and it took another decade for Rutherford to completely figure out how to do that. And this is one of the reasons that the Watchtower today, since 2012, teaches that the true "faithful and discreet slave" no longer includes Russell, even though for many years up until 1919, Russell was had been considered to be the ONLY member of the "faithful and discreet slave."

I'm not saying that the current Governing Body necessarily did the right thing in identifying only themselves as the current FDS, but at least, since 2012, they have taken measures to remove much of the emphasis on Russell himself, by removing him from any identification with the  "faithful and discreet slave."

Yet when i and others say that the Governing Body cannot be of the Faithful and Discreet slave because of their many faults, we are seen as wrong. But the GB can 'remove' Russell,  because they suddenly say he wasn't one of them. Quite funny I think. 

Once again you are worshipping men. Your GB have become like gods to you. 

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On 12/5/2018 at 6:01 PM, Space Merchant said:

That being said, it would depend on what you want to know..........the dark web....

I have a dark web right outside my bedroom window, with a big spider in the middle of it xD. Sorry, I know you are being serious. It's good we have google, although of course we need to find the right pages, because there is a lot of biased stuff out there. As I said, generally I do not buy into conspiracy theories, but I also know that the average person doesn't know the half of what's really going on.

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25 minutes ago, Anna said:

@JOHN BUTLER  I like this quote from JW Insider;  " I think the only way we can see past the human error and focus on the leadership of Jesus under the headship of Jehovah, is to avoid putting the human leadership on so high a pedestal in the first place".

There are none so blind as those that do not want to see. 

IT IS THE GB THEMSELVES THAT PUT THEMSELVES ON THAT PEDESTAL. 

The GB call themselves the Faithful and Discreet Slave. It is the GB that tell the others of the Anointed to keep quiet and not be noticed. 

It is the GB that say the rest of the Anointed are NOT of the Faithful Slave class. 

It is the GB that make all the rules and the Elders act like Policemen obeying those rules without question. 

It is the GB's system of GOVERNING that stops congregants making changes where changes are needed. 

YOU PEOPLE ARE THE ONES THAT WORSHIP YOUR GB.  Stop trying to pretend that you don't. 

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4 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

 

 

 

If all you do is play Monopoly ... you begin to think the cash is real, and the board game is real.

 

 

 

I'm in serious mood as it's 10.30 pm and I'm tired. So i have no idea what this riddle is about and probs will not find out. 

Goodnight to all. 

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5 hours ago, Anna said:

I hope your trip to Warwick was a good one. Did anyone come up to you?

The trip to Warwick is nice. I'm going to the 10:00 Sunday meeting in the auditorium there tomorrow morning. Then Monday, we go to Wallkill.

I met two brothers I knew from the 80's only because I called them first. Also, it's so impersonal without tour guides, and the whole place is sterile as can be. In a tour group you are talking to other people in your group and asking them where they are from, and what congregation, and invariably finding out that you know someone they know. In Brooklyn, I used to get called upon at least once a week to give tours, and it was always joyous, upbuilding and friendly. Also, a person coming through for a visit to Brooklyn could ask for me to give their tour and it would be a welcome interruption to the day's routines. Yesterday, I saw at least 200 people from bus tours and carpools come through and I happened upon only one instance of someone recognizing someone else from afar. Everyone was quiet, even young ones, as if it was a library. I saw only about 10 teenagers, and maybe 20 younger children. The rest were adults, more wheelchairs than I expected. Everyone is on their own, usually with a headset on, and 4 out of the 5 exhibits are very cramped so that I think brothers and sisters in wheelchairs felt like they were always in the way.

Bethelites stay out of sight, and the guides are often volunteers from nearby congregations who commute in one day a week. There are about 850 full-time workers here and I probably saw 10 of them even though I also walked the grounds several times between buildings -- not a part of the tour. Never saw a glimpse of a person in any of the building offices or windows because of the way they reflect. Except for the 200  on tour, you could have convinced me that all those many large buildings were vacant.

Two exceptions were two sisters assigned to clean the tables in the "multi-purpose room" with Swiffer-style brooms. I had brought a muffin with me and offered it to someone at the table and the sister pretended she wanted my food and said "Did you say you had a muffin?" I yelled back "You didn't hear muffin!" She lol'd and called the other sister over and began talking to us. They were originally from Hawaii and LA and had married Bethelites about 7 and 9 years ago working at Patterson and Brooklyn, respectively, before moving to Warwick.

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55 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

 

 

 

If all you do is play Monopoly ... you begin to think the cash is real, and the board game is real.

 

 

 

JTR, how real to you is "the only game in town"?

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4 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Those two men R & R are sometimes put 'on high' and then sometimes 'disowned'. I find that funny. It seems they were once seen as part of the Faithful Slave and are now seen to be NOT of the Faithful Slave. 

Of those two, only Russell was removed from the "list." Rutherford remains, but some of Rutherford's faults have been candidly admitted. I wouldn't say anyone has "disowned" Rutherford, although I worked with two brothers in the 1970's who still admitted that they held a strong grudge against the judge. If you know some of the stories about him it's a lot easier to read between the lines in the publications and from experiences various brothers had with him that have been mentioned in interviews. But you don't have to be liked to be faithful and discreet. There are a few things I don't like about Rutherford and a few that I do like. I don't think of him as a key part of the FDS nor any kind of "foundation stone." Among many righteous and courageous things he stood for, he was instrumental in keeping control of the assets of the Watchtower Society, and that name, having been associated with Russell and the work of the Kingdom as they understood it, kept a core portion of Bible Students together at a critical time. Otherwise, it's possible that Rutherford might have become a footnote.

4 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

I found that it made sense and people were kind and helpful. However over the years the things I was first taught have been 'wiped out', and therefore things make less sense.

A couple things make no sense, because human traditions create strongly entrenched things. Things just get more awkward when someone has to grasp at straws to make sense of things after they have been proven to be obsolete. Outside of about 5 topic areas, however, I happen to think that most things make even more sense now, especially looking at all the changes since about the year 2000. Also, I think we've dropped a lot of things that just can't be made to work anymore, but the WTS hasn't completely abandoned the ideas completely and has sometimes chosen untenable solutions to issues created by the older teachings. It's like sewing new patches of unshrunk cloth on old garments. After everything is "cut and dried," it just doesn't wash!

4 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

And the fact that the Anointed have been pushed to one side and the GB have chosen to exalt themselves, by calling themselves the Faithful and discreet slave, whereas all of the Anointed were once the Faithful and discreet slave,  this shows a dictatorship within the JW org.

All anointed Christians are no longer identified as THE faithful and discreet slave. But this wouldn't stop anointed Christians from being faithful and discreet slaves. This is something that all Christians are supposed to be, no matter what they claim to know about their ultimate place where they will serve in God's Kingdom throughout their eternal lives. True Christians who are faithful and discreet slaves will have this attitude:

  • (1 Peter 4:10) . . .To the extent that each one has received a gift, use it in ministering to one another as fine stewards of God’s undeserved kindness that is expressed in various ways.
  • (1 Corinthians 4:2, 3) 2 In this regard, what is expected of stewards is that they be found faithful. 3 Now to me it is of very little importance to be examined by you or by a human tribunal.. . .

I agree that it is an unfortunate circumstance that has probably led the Governing Body to believe that they need to bestow this title upon themselves to be respected for "authority" they believe is necessary to effectively lead thousands of local congregations and millions of brothers and sisters. I think it is a human failing to be expected in every religious organization on earth. For me the point of an organization is the idea that it provides a ready-made social group with which we can begin putting our Christianity into practice. It's a support group for the stronger to help the weaker, the richer to help the poorer -- and for all to provide an example to one another, both physical and spiritual encouragement and nourishment to one another. 

Such a group will be expected to put forth a set of teachings, which might be half right and half wrong, but it's a start for us to discuss. As the teachings are tested and questioned, the surer things and the more important things will rise to the top. It's true, as you say, that weak elders will not question and will become "policemen." But it is still our duty to test and question. If we are kicked out for it, so be it. If the "policemen" think it's right to break up families and natural affection over such questions then this is a tragedy and needs to be changed if we want to be Christian. Christianity is a constant fight for righteousness. It's easier in a social group of like minded persons, even though a social group, being human, will naturally have abusers who want to rise to the top just to be "policemen."

*** w77 10/1 p. 599 The Christian Congregation and Its Operation ***

  • They are not governors or “masters” of the lives or faith of Jehovah’s Witnesses, but are viewed as brothers and equals having a duty of stewardship. —1 Cor. 4:1, 2; 2 Cor. 1:24; 1 Pet. 4:10.

Back in 1977, discussing the Governing Body, this verse from 2 Cor was included along with the two other scriptures I already quoted above. The one I hadn't quoted yet was the middle one:

  • (2 Corinthians 1:24) Not that we are the masters over your faith, but we are fellow workers for your joy, for it is by your faith that you are standing.
4 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Quote 'encourages high morality'. UM questionable don't you think, in view of the massive amount of HIDDEN  Child Abuse Earthwide within the JW Org.

This is one big problem. I'm not minimizing it. We no longer encourage the hiding of child abuse. It still happens, of course. I think it's from shame. We just don't want to admit something so horrible is as much among us as among others. Those who think it's best to hide it are not thinking the way Jehovah wants us to think; they are not thinking about what true justice really is. It's rampant criminal stupidity, and we are not immune.

4 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Quote "We should all push for more improvements even if this means exposing the seriousness of injustice to children, and exposing these issues to the light."   I did i left the JW org, and that is what eveyone should have done.

True. Some have left, thinking this might allow them to push for change more effectively. Some, in the past, have pushed on the issue and then even been pushed out when they did not want to leave. But you left and I wonder if you really think that it made more people aware of the problem, than if you had just brought it up matter-of-factly in normal conversation to as many people as possible first, before leaving. Also, don't you think that this really requires a top-down approach. And by the way, I know of an elder in California who has stepped down and discontinued his former level of association with the congregation and who spends much time actively campaigning for worldwide change and national political change on this issue. If he is to be believed, he has not been approached by any persons or committee about disfellowshipping or disassociation. I honestly don't think the WTS would ever want to make a move against such a person again. It would be devastating to the current and potential court cases. Also, note that in recent court cases there are apparently less of them trying to mitigate against the seriousness of the specific crime itself. They are primarily trying to mitigate against financial loss to the corporate entities whose representatives argue that the responsibility for child sexual abuse does not lie in following the promoted rules, guides, and processes of the WTS, which they also believe, in good faith, have been Bible-based.

4 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Quote :" that it means God has removed his blessing from all of us, especially the leadership. I don't expect so much out of the leadership .. Matthew 5 v 48  You must accordingly be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

True. I don't expect the leadership of any human organization to be perfect. Ultimately we must be, and it should always guide our motives and goals. But don't expect it anywhere. As TrueTomHarley has often tried to point out, we might expect that Christian methods of dealing with the issue might make our numbers (statistics) actually come out better when compared against institutions of the world. Perhaps they already are. But there are factors that might fight against this, too. Just as Catholics bring supposedly celibate men into the priesthood, Witnesses attract persons who believe that association alone might change their wicked desires. Witnesses might also attract those who believe that fellow Witnesses are extremely trusting and naive, "babes to badness" as it were.

4 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

In my opinion big changes are coming. The GB have to be removed, in any way that God chooses. The JW Org may have to be destroyed, if God chooses to do it, or to let it be done. As in the destruction of Jerusalem.

If that happens, do you see yourself believing that this organization must have been "God's chosen" one, just as Jerusalem represented an earthly organization of God's chosen ones? I get the feeling that you don't feel there is any significance to the JW Org in our day, and probably don't feel that big changes would really be a cleaning out by God's direct intervention.

I think that most if not all the current Governing Body are doing a pretty good job as expected in most areas of concern. But they are also steeped in our own long organizational tradition, and captivated by the idea that they have been asked to serve in an awesome, overwhelming position of responsibility. One of those areas of responsibility is finding and choosing others who should be asked to serve in such a position. In such a situation, I don't see them as bad or unworthy, but just trying to do the best they can in the situation they find themselves serving. An ex-member who was a strong critic of the Governing Body called it being "captives of a concept." The same ex-member said that a big part of that "concept" is based on seeing certain changes as inconceivable, especially where it comes to a perceived need to "police" the faith of millions of followers. I think you (and the ex-JW I refer to) are both partly right in this regard. Because their vantage point sees reports of activity always "rolled up" in terms of a works-based faith, it will likely be a while before we see a change from "activity-based faith" to "faith-based activity." As people who came up through the rules of the organization as they have always been, it's probably all they are seeing every day, and it's so much to deal with that they haven't yet looked very far outside the box.

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On 12/7/2018 at 10:18 PM, Anna said:

Many names are written and pronounced quite differently depending on what language you speak.

Yes indeed. It's a bit like:

  • Caleb and Sophia - English
  • Philipp und Sofia - Deutsch
  • Lucas og Sofie - Dansk
  • Kevin och Sofia - Svenska
  • Jakob og Sofie - Norsk
  • Priidu und Pauliina - Eesti
  • Ignas ir Kotryna - Lietuviu
  • Leevi ja Sofia - Suomi
  • Stefcho and Lily - Bulgarski
  • Marci és Zsófi - Magyar
  • Kuba s Luckou - čeština

😊

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I left this forum before because the hate is just too much for me here.  It is a breading ground for all the dissenters.   I prefer to discuss world affairs in light of prophecy where I do not have to deal with people who visit a site like this just to vent their emotions which makes them illogical and full of hatefulness.   I have seen arrogance here that it is just too much to waste my time to deal with.  

Fools - yes fools - because the bible calls those foolish ones who spend their time in the pursuit of breaking down.  They cannot think for themselves or ponder on the fact that the history of Israel is given as an example to us.   They were the people of Jehovah (in a covenant relationship with him) but you can study all the IMPURITIES and injustice that infiltrated the nation despite their having a law to teach them what is right and wrong.  Their management of course went without a hitch!  They were just perfect - so perfect that Jehovah never had to bring all the curses upon them described in Deuteronomy!       Despite all this waywardness of the nation and individuals, Jehovah managed to bring his plan to fruition to bring forth the Messiah - exactly on time!     

Today Jehovah also has a nation in a covenant relationship with him.  Are they perfect!  Hell NO!  They are prone to the same sins as everyone else... but they are fulfilling the prophecies of warning the entire earth to remain NEUTRAL to world politics and remain within his principals.  They definitely are PURE regarding the teachings of trinity, hellfire, pagan traditions, and immortality of the soul and many more.  Are there wayward individuals whose hearts are not PURE - definitely.   But Jehovah removes his spirit from them if they persist in their ways - especially if they are just critical and do not appreciate the good things they have learnt!   They are like Esau and they do not have the qualities of the spirit.  As far as I remember hate and criticism of brothers is not a fruit of the spirit. .....    I would just like to have a logical conversation without all these nasty qualities always sticking out as the main theme! 

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Another session where it starts off with 'Jehovah's name' and then turns into a bashing session.  Obsessed with bashing?  What kind of Christian quality is that?   most apostates have OCD - I recognize the signs immediately! They have an emotional sickness - they spend their time bashing........ So I will get back to the subject - that of Jehovah's name.   

There are now more than 1000 extant manuscripts where the pronunciation of name "jehova" appears.  Any case, you need no other proof than the names Jeho-ram, jeho-safat, and hallelu-jah to know what the syllables were before.  Plain common sense - unless you do not want to accept this and are smarter than the scholar who has been collecting copies of these extant copies all over the world. 

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Then you end up trusting the deceivers?    

I am not deceived by those anointed who are jealous of the control by others - as they wish to depict the situation.  This means they want a bigger say - more control?  Want to be central in the decision making?   .... because they are the true anointed?   .......  True anointed are very humble and do not think they have all the knowledge which others do not have even if they are taught by jehovah.   They will keep peace at all costs because righteousness only grows where there is peace and peacemakers are blessed by Jehovah......  These people oppose the GB..... and where can they go? They are not peacemakers but destroyers and sowers of doubt - in very subtle ways! 

The bible clearly says that Jehovah has one mountain of worship in the last days where all will stream to learn the laws from heavenly Zion and they will learn war no more  Is 2:2-4.  These dissenters have no nation - they are  dissenters to criticize and go about deceiving and sowing doubt - great!   This proves they have all the qualities such as mentioned in Gal 5:22 such as patience, love, joy, etc?   Not on your life!     They see themselves as the true anointed separate from the organization???  I have read no scripture to this effect.

Satan loves control - even in minute ways.  People can use their power over others to deceive...... manipulate ... such as quoting scriptures to deceive!  I am not taken in by this and neither should you.  These people have the wrong spirit even if they can quote the bible ad nauseum out of its correct context! 

The organization was cleaned up after 1914 but it was not perfect......  The organization is being cleaned up as we go along and the light is getting brighter... of course Rutherford did stupid stuff - but so did Israel - the nation which Jehovah used before!    But we have a long way since then....... and all this unhappiness is about the POSITION -  not being acknowledged as true anointed and appointed to lead?.   I say their arrogance has made them lose their opportunity to lead.    If they are not careful and do not repent they will be permanent ly rejected by Jehovah and will not be sealed before their death.  

They are suffering from the same sickness as Satan had ..... hence the OCD. 

 

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3 hours ago, Arauna said:

I left this forum before because the hate is just too much for me here.  It is a breading ground for all the dissenters.   I prefer to discuss world affairs in light of prophecy where I do not have to deal with people who visit a site like this just to vent their emotions which makes them illogical and full of hatefulness.   I have seen arrogance here that it is just too much to waste my time to deal with.  

Fools - yes fools - because the bible calls those foolish ones who spend their time in the pursuit of breaking down.  They cannot think for themselves or ponder on the fact that the history of Israel is given as an example to us.   They were the people of Jehovah (in a covenant relationship with him) but you can study all the IMPURITIES and injustice that infiltrated the nation despite their having a law to teach them what is right and wrong.  Their management of course went without a hitch!  They were just perfect - so perfect that Jehovah never had to bring all the curses upon them described in Deuteronomy!       Despite all this waywardness of the nation and individuals, Jehovah managed to bring his plan to fruition to bring forth the Messiah - exactly on time!     

Today Jehovah also has a nation in a covenant relationship with him.  Are they perfect!  Hell NO!  They are prone to the same sins as everyone else... but they are fulfilling the prophecies of warning the entire earth to remain NEUTRAL to world politics and remain within his principals.  They definitely are PURE regarding the teachings of trinity, hellfire, pagan traditions, and immortality of the soul and many more.  Are there wayward individuals whose hearts are not PURE - definitely.   But Jehovah removes his spirit from them if they persist in their ways - especially if they are just critical and do not appreciate the good things they have learnt!   They are like Esau and they do not have the qualities of the spirit.  As far as I remember hate and criticism of brothers is not a fruit of the spirit. .....    I would just like to have a logical conversation without all these nasty qualities always sticking out as the main theme! 

If you cannot face the truth then go somewhere else if you need to be cuddled. 

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Mr Butler -  so loving - I do not need cuddling - definitely not from you  and I am not easily deceived as you are.  You have found yourself an eco-chamber here that is all!   People who encourage you in your folly!

That is why I left -  it has become an eco-chamber for apostates - not people who can reason objectively! 

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10 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Of those two, only Russell was removed from the "list." Rutherford remains, but some of Rutherford's faults have been candidly admitted. I wouldn't say anyone has "disowned" Rutherford, although I worked with two brothers in the 1970's who still admitted that they held a strong grudge against the judge. If you know some of the stories about him it's a lot easier to read between the lines in the publications and from experiences various brothers had with him that have been mentioned in interviews. But you don't have to be liked to be faithful and discreet. There are a few things I don't like about Rutherford and a few that I do like. I don't think of him as a key part of the FDS nor any kind of "foundation stone." Among many righteous and courageous things he stood for, he was instrumental in keeping control of the assets of the Watchtower Society, and that name, having been associated with Russell and the work of the Kingdom as they understood it, kept a core portion of Bible Students together at a critical time. Otherwise, it's possible that Rutherford might have become a footnote.

A couple things make no sense, because human traditions create strongly entrenched things. Things just get more awkward when someone has to grasp at straws to make sense of things after they have been proven to be obsolete. Outside of about 5 topic areas, however, I happen to think that most things make even more sense now, especially looking at all the changes since about the year 2000. Also, I think we've dropped a lot of things that just can't be made to work anymore, but the WTS hasn't completely abandoned the ideas completely and has sometimes chosen untenable solutions to issues created by the older teachings. It's like sewing new patches of unshrunk cloth on old garments. After everything is "cut and dried," it just doesn't wash!

All anointed Christians are no longer identified as THE faithful and discreet slave. But this wouldn't stop anointed Christians from being faithful and discreet slaves. This is something that all Christians are supposed to be, no matter what they claim to know about their ultimate place where they will serve in God's Kingdom throughout their eternal lives. True Christians who are faithful and discreet slaves will have this attitude:

  • (1 Peter 4:10) . . .To the extent that each one has received a gift, use it in ministering to one another as fine stewards of God’s undeserved kindness that is expressed in various ways.
  • (1 Corinthians 4:2, 3) 2 In this regard, what is expected of stewards is that they be found faithful. 3 Now to me it is of very little importance to be examined by you or by a human tribunal.. . .

I agree that it is an unfortunate circumstance that has probably led the Governing Body to believe that they need to bestow this title upon themselves to be respected for "authority" they believe is necessary to effectively lead thousands of local congregations and millions of brothers and sisters. I think it is a human failing to be expected in every religious organization on earth. For me the point of an organization is the idea that it provides a ready-made social group with which we can begin putting our Christianity into practice. It's a support group for the stronger to help the weaker, the richer to help the poorer -- and for all to provide an example to one another, both physical and spiritual encouragement and nourishment to one another. 

Such a group will be expected to put forth a set of teachings, which might be half right and half wrong, but it's a start for us to discuss. As the teachings are tested and questioned, the surer things and the more important things will rise to the top. It's true, as you say, that weak elders will not question and will become "policemen." But it is still our duty to test and question. If we are kicked out for it, so be it. If the "policemen" think it's right to break up families and natural affection over such questions then this is a tragedy and needs to be changed if we want to be Christian. Christianity is a constant fight for righteousness. It's easier in a social group of like minded persons, even though a social group, being human, will naturally have abusers who want to rise to the top just to be "policemen."

*** w77 10/1 p. 599 The Christian Congregation and Its Operation ***

  • They are not governors or “masters” of the lives or faith of Jehovah’s Witnesses, but are viewed as brothers and equals having a duty of stewardship. —1 Cor. 4:1, 2; 2 Cor. 1:24; 1 Pet. 4:10.

Back in 1977, discussing the Governing Body, this verse from 2 Cor was included along with the two other scriptures I already quoted above. The one I hadn't quoted yet was the middle one:

  • (2 Corinthians 1:24) Not that we are the masters over your faith, but we are fellow workers for your joy, for it is by your faith that you are standing.

This is one big problem. I'm not minimizing it. We no longer encourage the hiding of child abuse. It still happens, of course. I think it's from shame. We just don't want to admit something so horrible is as much among us as among others. Those who think it's best to hide it are not thinking the way Jehovah wants us to think; they are not thinking about what true justice really is. It's rampant criminal stupidity, and we are not immune.

True. Some have left, thinking this might allow them to push for change more effectively. Some, in the past, have pushed on the issue and then even been pushed out when they did not want to leave. But you left and I wonder if you really think that it made more people aware of the problem, than if you had just brought it up matter-of-factly in normal conversation to as many people as possible first, before leaving. Also, don't you think that this really requires a top-down approach. And by the way, I know of an elder in California who has stepped down and discontinued his former level of association with the congregation and who spends much time actively campaigning for worldwide change and national political change on this issue. If he is to be believed, he has not been approached by any persons or committee about disfellowshipping or disassociation. I honestly don't think the WTS would ever want to make a move against such a person again. It would be devastating to the current and potential court cases. Also, note that in recent court cases there are apparently less of them trying to mitigate against the seriousness of the specific crime itself. They are primarily trying to mitigate against financial loss to the corporate entities whose representatives argue that the responsibility for child sexual abuse does not lie in following the promoted rules, guides, and processes of the WTS, which they also believe, in good faith, have been Bible-based.

True. I don't expect the leadership of any human organization to be perfect. Ultimately we must be, and it should always guide our motives and goals. But don't expect it anywhere. As TrueTomHarley has often tried to point out, we might expect that Christian methods of dealing with the issue might make our numbers (statistics) actually come out better when compared against institutions of the world. Perhaps they already are. But there are factors that might fight against this, too. Just as Catholics bring supposedly celibate men into the priesthood, Witnesses attract persons who believe that association alone might change their wicked desires. Witnesses might also attract those who believe that fellow Witnesses are extremely trusting and naive, "babes to badness" as it were.

If that happens, do you see yourself believing that this organization must have been "God's chosen" one, just as Jerusalem represented an earthly organization of God's chosen ones? I get the feeling that you don't feel there is any significance to the JW Org in our day, and probably don't feel that big changes would really be a cleaning out by God's direct intervention.

I think that most if not all the current Governing Body are doing a pretty good job as expected in most areas of concern. But they are also steeped in our own long organizational tradition, and captivated by the idea that they have been asked to serve in an awesome, overwhelming position of responsibility. One of those areas of responsibility is finding and choosing others who should be asked to serve in such a position. In such a situation, I don't see them as bad or unworthy, but just trying to do the best they can in the situation they find themselves serving. An ex-member who was a strong critic of the Governing Body called it being "captives of a concept." The same ex-member said that a big part of that "concept" is based on seeing certain changes as inconceivable, especially where it comes to a perceived need to "police" the faith of millions of followers. I think you (and the ex-JW I refer to) are both partly right in this regard. Because their vantage point sees reports of activity always "rolled up" in terms of a works-based faith, it will likely be a while before we see a change from "activity-based faith" to "faith-based activity." As people who came up through the rules of the organization as they have always been, it's probably all they are seeing every day, and it's so much to deal with that they haven't yet looked very far outside the box.

It's a quarter to 11 am here in Devon England, and I haven't been out of bed long. The reason i tell you this is to say that I'm not too wide awake yet. BUT having read through your answer to my comment, you seem  to be agreeing with me on a lot of things, only then making excuses for the GB and JW Org. 

Quote If that happens, do you see yourself believing that this organization must have been "God's chosen" one, just as Jerusalem represented an earthly organization of God's chosen ones? I get the feeling that you don't feel there is any significance to the JW Org in our day, and probably don't feel that big changes would really be a cleaning out by God's direct intervention.

First off, I do not think the GB are up to the job, and that is probably of their own doing. I feel that the GB need removing and replacing. I find it strange that some folks on here get so upset by this idea. Don't they know how many people God has removed in the past. Don't they think on the punishments God gave to His own Nation. In my opinion it would make more sense to have a GB of 12 men (for obvious reasons, 12 tribes, 12 Apostles, although there were actually 13 of each) and for those 12 men to be from different countries / nations. To have basically 8 American White men  (yes I know 7 are white and 7 are American ) but it seems a bit racist / nationalistic to me. Not in the true sense obviously but, one thing that has been said about the Heavenly Class, is that they know about our feelings and can have empathy, because they were once here on this Earth with us. So, along those lines,  if there were 12 men from different countries, they would better understand the culture / way of thinking / behavior etc, of 'their own people' / people of their own human race. 

The JW Org. As I've said before, is like a Taxi. If it's going in the right direction you stay in it. If it goes in the wrong direction you get out asap. Now if that Taxi breaks down, you either repair it or replace it. So, the JWorg. It seems to be either going in the wrong direction or it's broken down and going nowhere. I would honestly love to see it cleaned up by God through Jesus Christ. Because of course honest hearted people desperately need an honest spiritual organisation. It make no sense to me, if we are sooooo near Armageddon, to have the Org broken down and in a disgusting state. 

I keep coming back the the 'Ten men clinging to the skirt of a Jew' scripture. And someone else on here (sorry forgotten whom) said that this is already happening, and has given me direction to another web site. But I haven't investigated that yet and i will use caution when i do. 

My feeling are that true Anointed ones would not be on this here site /forum. And I feel they would be gathering together, not disagreeing with each other. BUT as I've said before, I have found in my life that I do not know the truth about anything. 

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3 hours ago, Arauna said:

Another session where it starts off with 'Jehovah's name' and then turns into a bashing session.  Obsessed with bashing?  What kind of Christian quality is that?   most apostates have OCD - I recognize the signs immediately! They have an emotional sickness - they spend their time bashing........ So I will get back to the subject - that of Jehovah's name.   

There are now more than 1000 extant manuscripts where the pronunciation of name "jehova" appears.  Any case, you need no other proof than the names Jeho-ram, jeho-safat, and hallelu-jah to know what the syllables were before.  Plain common sense - unless you do not want to accept this and are smarter than the scholar who has been collecting copies of these extant copies all over the world. 

Wow you are sooooo clever you can diagnose people's 'sickness' via the internet. Clairvoyant are you ? Be careful i think that is demonism. 

No, what the reality is, is simple. It seems that you do not like truth or logic. What you call bashing, would have been bred into you by the GB/Elders/JW Org. The real word is questioning, but of course the GB/Elders/JW org do not want questioning. 

I've been given to understand that Jesus' real name is something like Yeshua. Yes or No ?  And i was always taught the tetragrammaton was YHWH not JHVH. Correct of not ? Now if that Tetragrammaton had a meaning / descriptive of God, then i would have thought by altering the letters it would alter the meaning. Just the thoughts of a simple man. 

and all those names you have quoted, could they have originally have started with 'Y' instead of 'J'  

H
    Hello guest!

Hallelujah is an English interjection. It is a transliteration of the Hebrew word הַלְלוּיָהּ which is ... Translation, Holman Christian Standard Bible, and The Message, with the spelling "Halleluyah" appearing in the Complete Jewish Bible.

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1 hour ago, Arauna said:

Then you end up trusting the deceivers?    

I am not deceived by those anointed who are jealous of the control by others - as they wish to depict the situation.  This means they want a bigger say - more control?  Want to be central in the decision making?   .... because they are the true anointed?   .......  True anointed are very humble and do not think they have all the knowledge which others do not have even if they are taught by jehovah.   They will keep peace at all costs because righteousness only grows where there is peace and peacemakers are blessed by Jehovah......  These people oppose the GB..... and where can they go? They are not peacemakers but destroyers and sowers of doubt - in very subtle ways! 

The bible clearly says that Jehovah has one mountain of worship in the last days where all will stream to learn the laws from heavenly Zion and they will learn war no more  Is 2:2-4.  These dissenters have no nation - they are  dissenters to criticize and go about deceiving and sowing doubt - great!   This proves they have all the qualities such as mentioned in Gal 5:22 such as patience, love, joy, etc?   Not on your life!     They see themselves as the true anointed separate from the organization???  I have read no scripture to this effect.

Satan loves control - even in minute ways.  People can use their power over others to deceive...... manipulate ... such as quoting scriptures to deceive!  I am not taken in by this and neither should you.  These people have the wrong spirit even if they can quote the bible ad nauseum out of its correct context! 

The organization was cleaned up after 1914 but it was not perfect......  The organization is being cleaned up as we go along and the light is getting brighter... of course Rutherford did stupid stuff - but so did Israel - the nation which Jehovah used before!    But we have a long way since then....... and all this unhappiness is about the POSITION -  not being acknowledged as true anointed and appointed to lead?.   I say their arrogance has made them lose their opportunity to lead.    If they are not careful and do not repent they will be permanent ly rejected by Jehovah and will not be sealed before their death.  

They are suffering from the same sickness as Satan had ..... hence the OCD. 

Everything you have said about others, just perfectly fits the description of the GB. That is sooo funny. 

they want a bigger say - more control? Yes the GB do, that's why they hushed up the rest of the Anointed. 

People can use their power over others to deceive...... manipulate. Yes the GB do. Then constantly moving the goal posts to make sure they keep in control. 

The organization is being cleaned up as we go along ..  Let's hope it is. Removal of the GB would prove it. A new GB would be great if they were truly prepared to serve God properly. 

And as for you loving of OCD, you are only copying the GB once again. The GB have said that some who claim to be of the Anointed are actually mentally ill. Do you or your GB honestly think you have been given the right to JUDGE. I thought Jesus had paid the price and was given the authority to judge. 

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1 hour ago, Arauna said:

Mr Butler -  so loving - I do not need cuddling - definitely not from you  and I am not easily deceived as you are.  You have found yourself an eco-chamber here that is all!   People who encourage you in your folly!

That is why I left -  it has become an eco-chamber for apostates - not people who can reason objectively! 

Perhaps you left because you cannot 'reason objectively'. Is the saying steel sharpens steel or something like that.

I find this forum fabulous for helping me see different viewpoints. 

Of course I have my own views, just as you have. And yes i get a bit uptight as most people do in life.

For instance, and of course you will not be interested, but to put things into real life perspective. Our hot water boiler has just, this morning, decided to leak, over all the clean dry linen in the airing cupboard. So i had to leave this forum and do some practical work, to basically clean up the mess and sort out more washing. No i don't leave everything to my wife. So just another tiny pressure to add to other things. What I'm saying is, when folks come to this forum, they may have other problems on their minds. So you may get remarks that are straight and blunt.

But if you cannot stand the heat then get out of the kitchen. Don't use the excuse that the kitchen should not be so hot. 

And once again you make yourself look so silly. The echo chamber idea fits more with the JW Org, not those of us that have started thinking and investigating for ourselves.  JW's are taught to obey without question. 

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Mr Butler -  so loving ...     How loving did the Pharisees and others think Jesus was when Jesus cleansed the Temple ?

How loving did the Pharisees think Jesus was when Jesus called them hypocrites, and told them they were from their father the Devil ?

True criticism is not from hate, it is from a love of Almighty God and His son Jesus Christ. 

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Jesus had insight which you do not have..... unless you think you are especially gifted.

Jesus was loving to everyone except the Pharisees.  I see a lot of ignorance and arrogance here on this forum.  One cannot answer anyone that thinks they have all the answers and give themselves the right to put themselves on a pedestal - they suffer from the same disease as the Pharisees.

People here think they are especially intellectual.  Logic don't work in them.

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Mr Butler - you find this fabulous because it is an eco-chamber.  You saying that what I said fits the GB- this indicates you do not understand what I said.   The GB is part of a nation - these people are not.  Most probably like you they have lost their privilege to be a witness and now take to revenge on internet to justify their positions - something I see here all the time.  The OCD syndrome..... over and over the same of same....  I learnt nothing new here and I did not in the past.    

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1 hour ago, Arauna said:

Jesus had insight which you do not have..... unless you think you are especially gifted.

Jesus was loving to everyone except the Pharisees.  I see a lot of ignorance and arrogance here on this forum.  One cannot answer anyone that thinks they have all the answers and give themselves the right to put themselves on a pedestal - they suffer from the same disease as the Pharisees.

People here think they are especially intellectual.  Logic don't work in them.

However I see you avoided answering the questions. Making excuses is of no use. 

If you're read many of my comments you will know that I've said, I do not KNOW the TRUTH about anything. 

What can be seen is the GB of the JW Org that have placed themselves on that pedestal, and you know it. Those 8 men that CALL THEMSELVES the Faithful and Discreet Slave. And I agree with you that they suffer from the same problem as the Pharisees. And yes logic does not work in them, neither does love, as can easily be seen with the serious problem of the Child Abuse / Pedophlilia within the JW Org. 

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3 minutes ago, Arauna said:

Mr Butler - you find this fabulous because it is an eco-chamber.  You saying that what I said fits the GB- this indicates you do not understand what I said.   The GB is part of a nation - these people are not.  Most probably like you they have lost their privilege to be a witness and now take to revenge on internet to justify their positions - something I see here all the time.  The OCD syndrome..... over and over the same of same....  I learnt nothing new here and I did not in the past.    

Oh dear, so you do not know that I resigned from the JW Org. I deliberately left the Org because of the disgusting things going on within it. The fact that 120 to 150 people from my ex congregation stopped conversing with me because they are all frightened of the Elders and frightened of being disfellowshipped, is their own loss. I would have passed on the things I have learnt to them, and would have given them warnings, but they choose not to converse. I do not go in for revenge, i prefer facts of truth as far as i can establish  them. But unfortunately doing so is difficult because of the fear within the JW org. 

By the way I presume you meant echo not eco. 

Quote : "The GB is part of a nation " So were the Pharisees and look what happened to Jerusalem. 

As for your parrot fashion OCD syndrome remark, you can easily be seen to be copying your 'gods' the GB. 

Keep on serving you 'gods' the GB of JW Org. The same way the Jews served the Pharisees and Sadducees and note how they finished up. 

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You have not done your research on pedophilia..... I can see that.  You have not done your research on the outcome on the Australian enquiries and how many organizations participated...... so do not be an  "accuser" like satan when you know little of the history...... 

I will just mention one item to you because I think you are very uninformed ....... 

There were no laws in any country against pedophilia in the 50s and sixties.    Governments are to blame because there were no laws in place.  People were too afraid to openly speak about it.   It was only in the late 60s and seventies that we find newspapers starting to talk about this.  How do I know?  I worked for newspapers........   

So in the fifties and sixties the JWs  at least kept track of brothers they  did not have sufficient proof for to put them out of congregation.  When the suspect moved to new  congregation the next congregation was notified.... this is what they did during the 50s and 60s.  This is way too little  that was done but still much more than most other sports associations did or even other churches did at the time.   Child molestation is everywhere you find children -  it is everywhere.  Sports associations and scouts etc etc.  

It was only in the 80s when one could get a possible conviction - but it is a crime hard to prove.  Very important! - As late as  2003 the first law in America appeared to protect the child from being cross-examined in court in front of the perpetrator - this was a second trauma to the child...... so I would say that legislation was to blame for the nonchalant approach to this problem.  in 2003 the law allowed for a recording to be used....   Today - it still a problem to get child services to properly evaluate children because most counties  do not have funds to give proper support services. 

Legislation took so long because the top echelons of society such as judges and many legislators are part of child sex rings - or do you really live in a world of naivety?  most of these people have their cases suppressed - or do you think you live in a fair society?  Think again.  In England now there has been suppression of rape cases for 15 years because the perpetrators were of a race that was "sensitive" for police authorities.

At present the age of consent is getting lower and lower - did you not notice that?  In California it has changed - so it is viewed as consensual sex when a child is involved.  With Islamic 10 year old marriages and Female genital mutilation things are changing fast.....  and in many countries police do not even follow it up any more.  Only in America one finds people who want to make a buck from their suffering go to court and the law is kinda retro-active because people judge 40 year cases on the current laws and not on the laws that were in place at the time.....

  So there is just a little for you to think about before you spew you accusations again...... So this is why I left the forum because one has to constantly deal with people who spew deceptive information and have not made sure of their facts or do not want to know what is the truth.  They just need an eco-chamber....

 

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I have an idea you know nothing about the Pharisees and the Talmud - Mishna and all that - the reason you can compare the GB to the Pharisees.  Also not the history of Israel from 200 BCE to 70 CE and the Greek influence in Palestine..... if you knew the history - then you might have respect for the GB..... and not be so quick to make comparisons....

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6 minutes ago, Arauna said:

You have not done your research on pedophilia..... I can see that.  You have not done your research on the outcome on the Australian enquiries and how many organizations participated...... so do not be an  "accuser" like satan when you know little of the history...... 

I will just mention one item to you because I think you are very uninformed ....... 

There were no laws in any country against pedophilia in the 50s and sixties.    Governments are to blame because there were no laws in place.  People were too afraid to openly speak about it.   It was only in the late 60s and seventies that we find newspapers starting to talk about this.  How do I know?  I worked for newspapers........   

So in the fifties and sixties the JWs  at least kept track of brothers they  did not have sufficient proof for to put them out of congregation.  When the suspect moved to new  congregation the next congregation was notified.... this is what they did during the 50s and 60s.  This is way too little  that was done but still much more than most other sports associations did or even other churches did at the time.   Child molestation is everywhere you find children -  it is everywhere.  Sports associations and scouts etc etc.  

It was only in the 80s when one could get a possible conviction - but it is a crime hard to prove.  Very important! - As late as  2003 the first law in America appeared to protect the child from being cross-examined in court in front of the perpetrator - this was a second trauma to the child...... so I would say that legislation was to blame for the nonchalant approach to this problem.  in 2003 the law allowed for a recording to be used....   Today - it still a problem to get child services to properly evaluate children because most counties  do not have funds to give proper support services. 

Legislation took so long because the top echelons of society such as judges and many legislators are part of child sex rings - or do you really live in a world of naivety?  most of these people have their cases suppressed - or do you think you live in a fair society?  Think again.  In England now there has been suppression of rape cases for 15 years because the perpetrators were of a race that was "sensitive" for police authorities.

At present the age of consent is getting lower and lower - did you not notice that?  In California it has changed - so it is viewed as consensual sex when a child is involved.  With Islamic 10 year old marriages and Female genital mutilation things are changing fast.....  and in many countries police do not even follow it up any more.  Only in America one finds people who want to make a buck from their suffering go to court and the law is kinda retro-active because people judge 40 year cases on the current laws and not on the laws that were in place at the time.....

  So there is just a little for you to think about before you spew you accusations again...... So this is why I left the forum because one has to constantly deal with people who spew deceptive information and have not made sure of their facts or do not want to know what is the truth.  They just need an eco-chamber....

 

Make your own excuses if it pleases you. I'm just laughing at you. 

I have info' on the Royal Australian Commision.

I have info on Canada, supreme Court of Quebec.

i have info' on the Netherlands. inc Reclaimed Voices.

I have info on the UK, where i am. Charity Commision and IICSA 

I have info on USA, 

I have info on Spain, 

And i have some info on a case of child abuse within my ex congregation of Honiton Devon, which some on here have told me i should go to the police with. 

As for your stupid idea that governments were to blame, pathetic excuse. I would have thought you would have known your bible well enough to know God's rules and laws on such matters. Hiding pedophiles within the congregations, not telling congregants that there is a pedophile in their congregation. Calling victims liars and even to the point of disfellowshipping some to try to keep them quiet. Telling victims and their families not to report things to the Police. None of that shows love, empathy, sympathy, or respect, to anyone. And it is in total opposition to God. 

 

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8 minutes ago, The Librarian said:

Done! 

 

One question is 'In good standing' with Whom ? And the idea is one from a dictator it would seem. A friend of the GB. 

Of course if one is afraid of being questioned, then just say so. Or, if one is frightened of truth and needs somewhere to hide, then that club seems understandable. 

If it is a joke, then it is kinda funny. And if Admin wishes to kick me out / off of this forum then so be it.  There is only so much that can be said, and i do get fed up of being constantly challenged on the same issues, hence I repeat the same answers. Yes it gets boring and totally off topic but do you really expect me to back down on such important issues ?  Please advise others then to make a different topic if they wish to keep harassing me.  

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@JOHN BUTLER  Well... that would be in "good standing" within the JW community which as you are well aware.... means they would be a "friend of the GB" as you put it above.

@admin who owns this site doesn't care what religion one is...he is agnostic at best. He wanted this club to be off in it's own corner...

I asked him to make my own "JW's only" club to accomodate like minded people in their own area. 

This Public Club will stay here where I am more relaxed on people questioning etc....

I do get ticked off though when people's comments are completed unrelated and off topic (oh.. and spammers)

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39 minutes ago, Arauna said:

I have an idea you know nothing about the Pharisees and the Talmud - Mishna and all that - the reason you can compare the GB to the Pharisees.  Also not the history of Israel from 200 BCE to 70 CE and the Greek influence in Palestine..... if you knew the history - then you might have respect for the GB..... and not be so quick to make comparisons....

It seems we are being told that we are totally off topic. The comparisons I made still stand. 

I'm still ploughing through the complete works of Josephus, slowly. But my life has other interests and 'duties'. 

We must agree to differ, on everything it seems. When I have time i will look into Tacitus, Pliny the Younger, and possibly Lucian. But my mind is not so good as it was 60 years ago.  When i was nine I was told I was above average IQ.  Average must have been very low. :) 

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3 minutes ago, The Librarian said:

@JOHN BUTLER  Well... that would be in "good standing" within the JW community which as you are well aware.... means they would be a "friend of the GB" as you put it above.

@admin who owns this site doesn't care what religion one is...he is agnostic at best. He wanted this club to be off in it's own corner...

I asked him to make my own "JW's only" club to accomodate like minded people in their own area. 

This Public Club will stay here where I am more relaxed on people questioning etc....

I do get ticked off though when people's comments are completed unrelated and off topic (oh.. and spammers)

Fair comment. Do I get to view inside this exclusive Club ? Or is it going to be a place where ex JW's are 'talked about' in secret. :) 

Enjoy your new private club. 

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5 hours ago, Arauna said:

Only in America one finds people who want to make a buck from their suffering go to court and the law is kinda retro-active because people judge 40 year cases on the current laws and not on the laws that were in place at the time.....

One unique bit of understanding that Arauna brings to the table is that if there is no money, there is no interest. There is no ‘scandal’ whatsoever in developing lands.

The world is a lawyers playground, with massive funds flowing for every real or imagined injustice from any organization with pockets, be it business, religious, non-profit, or government, with the barristers netting a third.

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4 hours ago, The Librarian said:

I do get ticked off though when people's comments are completed unrelated and off topic (oh.. and spammers)

Want to make $10,000 a day while sleeping in bed? Try my site

    Hello guest!

Wonder if this post ever sees it's way onto the site.

(Wow! It did. You have a terrible spam filter.)

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22 hours ago, JW Insider said:

The trip to Warwick is nice. I'm going to the 10:00 Sunday meeting in the auditorium there tomorrow morning. Then Monday, we go to Wallkill.

When you return, would you tell me if the prophecy I sent in has been put on prominent display as I requested?

In just a very short time, attrocities demanding the flag be at half-mast will become so numerous that it will be at half-mast all the time. When that day arrives, Big Business will see no point in manufacturing the unused top half, and flagpoles will be produced at half height. Of course, this will not negate the need to fly at half-mast after disaster, and the flag will accordingly fly lower.

Repeat the cycle a few times and it is plain to see that it will soon touch the ground, something which CANNOT HAPPEN. When it does, it will be like touching the eyeball of the world system of nations and THAT will trigger Armageddon. 

This better be posted in one of the display areas, if not given an exhibit of its own. I am starting to tire of the lack of respect that I am getting around there. My last archeological find that I sent in that in with the recommendation it be included in the Bible canon, they replied with the smart-alec remark that maybe it should be fired from a cannon.

 

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4 hours ago, The Librarian said:

I do get ticked off though when people's comments are completed unrelated and off topic

Oh Wait. I really just wanted to say that this particular topic has gone all over the place, but now and then in the JW Public Club it should be possible to discuss the credibility by which we have promoted various political stances and tied them to prophecy. It's true that we've promoted many theories over the years and none have ever turned out to be right - YET! But this doesn't mean they won't all be coming true soon.

Still, it's our duty as true Christians to test and prove to pay close attention to our teaching. So a topic that can accept a wide range of issues related to our expectations about prophetic teachings and our expectations about the "sureness" of such teachings might be a good idea. Not for everyone, of course. Some are in different places when it comes to their respect for the time and research put into our doctrines. Some don't like any of our doctrines, but they seem to base it on issues that are not necessarily related to whether we're right on those doctrines.

I've explained my position that I love our doctrines on war, Trinity, hellfire, nationalism, new earth, ransom, millennium, etc, but take issue with chronology -- and yet a lot of our prophetic doctrines are loosely based on our chronology doctrines.

Setting a rational baseline for what the Governing Body have excelled at rather than throwing the baby out with the bathwater should be one of our goals. Dealing with John's criticisms might help some set or reset that baseline.

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55 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

One unique bit of understanding that Arauna brings to the table is that if there is no money, there is no interest. There is no ‘scandal’ whatsoever in developing lands.

The world is a lawyers playground, with massive funds flowing for every real or imagined injustice from any organization with pockets, be it business, religious, non-profit, or government, with the barristers netting a third.

Only in the minds of you materialistic selfish people. There is  plenty of interest and fellow feeling from those that have suffered abuse of any kind. 

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5 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Only in the minds of you materialistic selfish people. There is  plenty of interest and fellow feeling from those that have suffered abuse of any kind. 

Oh? It’s not manisfested in any action, is it? Show me the avengers of wrongs flocking there.

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Dealing with John's criticisms might help some set or reset that baseline. Me, are you making me famous, no thanks. Your GB are on their pedestal, i don't want one. And 'criticisms' sound so negative. I would say true comments. :) 

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2 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Oh? It’s not manisfested in any action, is it? Show me the avengers of wrongs flocking there.

And when people protest you say it' wrong. And when people stand up in Kingdom Halls and tell the truth about situations you say it's wrong. And when people start up organisations to help victims you and your kind will find fault in them. You Hypocrite. Not all of us think of the money. 

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21 minutes ago, Outta Here said:

???  Bit like Rev.13:3 then???

You had Rev 1:4 or 1:8 to choose from, and you went with 13:3??

At least the following verse refers to "posts."

  • (Nehemiah 13:6, 11) . . .and sometime later I asked the king for a leave of absence. . . .Then I gathered them together and assigned them back to their posts.

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2 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

You had Rev 1:4 or 1:8 to choose from, and you went with 13:3??

Yes. Actually I had the whole of Revelation to choose from, but this was the only apparent ( def.2) resurrection I could find. (Given the time constraint of course).  😊

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9 minutes ago, Outta Here said:

Actually I had the whole of Revelation to choose from, but this was the only apparent ( def.2) resurrection I could find.

I see. But this one is even better for those who do "cloud-based" witnessing on the Internet:

  • (Revelation 11:7-12) 7 When they have finished their witnessing, the wild beast that ascends out of the abyss will wage war with them and conquer them and kill them. 8 And their corpses will be on the main street of the great city . . . 11 After the three and a half days, spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood on their feet, and great fear fell upon those who saw them. 12 And they heard a loud voice from heaven say to them: “Come up here.” And they went up into heaven in the cloud, and their enemies saw them.

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6 hours ago, The Librarian said:

conversations are constantly being turned back into pedophilia etc

"Let sexual immorality and every sort of uncleanness or greediness not even be mentioned among you, just as is proper for holy people" Eph.5:3.

Is it conceivably possible that those who do as @The Librarian has noted are possibly deriving some sort of vicarious pleasure in this? I mean, if they know of incidents of abuse, part publicise,  and yet do not report them (even anonymously ) through the proper channels, what could possibly be their motive?

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3 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

they went up into heaven in the cloud, and their enemies saw them.

Know what you mean, but in the particular instance, I don't see the "going up to heaven" bit. Note, I said "like" as a point of comparison only.

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