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On 12/9/2018 at 3:52 AM, JOHN BUTLER said:

My feeling are that true Anointed ones would not be on this here site /forum. And I feel they would be gathering together, not disagreeing with each other.

This is the warring of "kings", not those found in the world of politics, but Christ's kings - his priests. 1 Pet 2:5,9   That is what the Great Tribulation is about.  Rev 1:5; 5:9,10  It is the war fought in the valley of decision.  Joel 2:28-32; 3:14  This involves our heart's desire to love either a lie or truth.  2 Thess 2:9-12  Through all of this, is the presence of the "Man of Lawless" standing/ruling over the anointed ones - the Temple of God.  False prophets will have declared Christ's premature coming in 1914.    2 Thess 2:3,4; Rev 11:1-3

The anointed who leave the Watchtower, leave behind oppression, idolatry and sin; hopefully desiring to be cleansed of it all.  Rev 3:14-22  

The preaching work before Christ returns is to "Israel" - those kings gathered within the Watchtower.  Matt 10:6, 23; Rev 20:7-10  This forum is an avenue for JWs, and an avenue for anointed to spread truth - about the Wicked Slave and the Man of Lawlessness ruling over God's Temple priests.    The internet is a valuable tool to reach as many JWs as possible., and the Watchtower is completely aware of just how valuable it is.  

As JWI said, all anointed should be found "faithful and discreet".  Since the GB have labeled themselves as the only ones, I am amazed how Christ's words warning us of those who "lord it over" others is unheeded by JWs.  A "Wicked Slave" has so much power over the souls of all JWs, even those who complain about it but continue to endure their lies. 

 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh;  but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God. Rom 2:28,29

 

 

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Yes of course, Satan is in control of the world, and that perfectly explains the "mess", but by discussing these things we are not making ourselves a part of it are we? Not only that, but notice that

@Arauna I was thinking about the frustrations you expressed earlier. I will create a club on here for JW's that feel as you do. I too sometimes feel frustration when conversations are constantly

Outside of the context of the Christian organization, anybody can say that they are anointed. I can say it. You can say it. Anyone can say it. They might be genuine. They might be deluded. They m

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Quote @Witness  " It is through Holy Spirit that each individual who cares to find good "fruit" that anointed ones are to teach, can recognize it as such." 

Back to square one then. How are those of the Earthly Class supposed to know who are the true Anointed. If we do not know then we do not know who to listen to. 

For my part I've come to a brick wall in all of it now. In my opinion only the true Anointed can tell us the way, but God and /or Jesus Christ have not shown me who they are. Hence my feelings that I have no chance of surviving Armageddon / the Judgement Day. 

Also you say 'Jesus did tell us to dig' but as I've said before, in my opinion the Scriptures were written for those of the Anointed only, not for the rest of us. Hence Jesus was telling the Anointed to dig not us.

Jesus talks about us of the earthly class as, 'Other sheep' 'not of that fold'. 

Therefore it can be seen that Jesus is talking about us, not to us. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:


For my part I've come to a brick wall in all of it now. In my opinion only the true Anointed can tell us the way, but God and /or Jesus Christ have not shown me who they are.

 

 

Have you prayed about the matter?

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@JOHN BUTLER  Ok, that is a good begining. Then the next thing is to examine the Holy Scriptures.

And before I got the anointing I never thought that the Bible was written only to the anointed. And I still do not think that. So this idea is maybe promoted by the GB so that the other sheep would not bother to check with the Bible if GB explains the Bible right.

2Timothy3:16  All Scripture is inspired of God+and beneficial for teaching,+ for reproving, for setting things straight,* for disciplining in righteousness,+17  so that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work.

I was pioneer for 5 years and not anointed and we pioneers were always taught to reason with people using scriptures. So worldy people should be able to understand scriptures even not being baptized.

We had the Reasoning-book for ministry also. So what prevents you to understand the Bible?

If you first pray to Jehovah for guidance and then you ask an anointed to show you from the Bible the answer, then you should be able to understand if the answer is true or just twisting of scriptures.

And you should never become a follower of men or women who are anointed because we can be mistaken. You should always remain only as Jesus' disciple. Jesus is the way, the truth and the life.

But on the other hand you will surely enjoy and benefit to be in company with good anointed christians. But make sure to always check if the anointed really explain the Bible correctly. You should never trust an anointed on face value. 

I as anointed would not be happy if you believed every thing I say without checking first with the Bible and reasoning making a logic conclusion.

Like prophecies, you can not find the answer in the Bible who exactly is for example Babylon the Great. That must be compared with existing entities and an examination must be made to see wich entity fit the description we find in the Bible. 

Can we argee on that?

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5 minutes ago, Kosonen said:

@JOHN BUTLER  Ok, that is a good begining. Then the next thing is to examine the Holy Scriptures.

And before I got the anointing I never thought that the Bible was written only to the anointed. And I still do not think that. So this idea is maybe promoted by the GB so that the other sheep would not bother to check with the Bible if GB explains the Bible right.

2Timothy3:16  All Scripture is inspired of God+and beneficial for teaching,+ for reproving, for setting things straight,* for disciplining in righteousness,+17  so that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work.

I was pioneer for 5 years and not anointed and we pioneers were always taught to reason with people using scriptures. So worldy people should be able to understand scriptures even not being baptized.

We had the Reasoning-book for ministry also. So what prevents you to understand the Bible?

If you first pray to Jehovah for guidance and then you ask an anointed to show you from the Bible the answer, then you should be able to understand if the answer is true or just twisting of scriptures.

And you should never become a follower of men or women who are anointed because we can be mistaken. You should always remain only as Jesus' disciple. Jesus is the way, the truth and the life.

But on the other hand you will surely enjoy and benefit to be in company with good anointed christians. But make sure to always check if the anointed really explain the Bible correctly. You should never trust an anointed on face value. 

I as anointed would not be happy if you believed every thing I say without checking first with the Bible and reasoning making a logic conclusion.

Like prophecies, you can not find the answer in the Bible who exactly is for example Babylon the Great. That must be compared with existing entities and an examination must be made to see wich entity fit the description we find in the Bible. 

Can we argee on that?

I'll think on it.  I too have the Reasoning book and lots of others too. However it seems that even some of the JW books are now withdrawn / deleted, and not believed to be true. 

I've 'known' the JW Org since i was around 16 or 17, and I'm now 69, I'm not a newbee.  I must have thrown away so many of the old books. I remember there was a yellow hard back book, a green one, and so many others. I have the Aid book Insight book/s, large bible, Revelation book, Theocratic Ministry School book ( old school ), and so many more. But what is the point of it all, if none of it tells the truth ?  Who was it, some big Roman guy,  said 'What is truth ?' 

The Timothy scripture, 2 Timothy 3 v16 says,  'so that the man of God...'  Anointed maybe ? 

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@JOHN BUTLER  John, the WT publications are often helpful to gain understanding of the Biblical truth. I still often check the online Jw library. But I do not just swollow the explanation. I check with the scriptures I remember that are related to the subject and what is important is to pray for God's guidance. That helps to see things better. I would say that it is impossible to learn correctly without prayer. Satan is there lurking all the time to mislead us when we read the Bible. If we don't pray for protection and God's guidance, then our mind is open for Satan to twist up the scriptures.

 

The individuals in the great crowd are evidently men and women of God, so I would surely apply 2 Timothy 3:16 on them also.

Revelation7:14 “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation,+ and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.+ 15  That is why they are before the throne of God, and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple; and the One seated on the throne+ will spread his tent over them.+

And anointed as well as individuals of the great crowd are able to be of the kind John wrote about:

1John2:10  The one who loves his brother remains in the light,+ and in him there is no cause for stumbling. 

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3 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Back to square one then. How are those of the Earthly Class supposed to know who are the true Anointed. If we do not know then we do not know who to listen to. 

Outside of the context of the Christian organization, anybody can say that they are anointed.

I can say it. You can say it. Anyone can say it. They might be genuine. They might be deluded. They might even be lying through their teeth, angling for future prominence. How would anyone ever know?

In theory, that could also be true of any member of the Governing Body. In practice, it is next to impossible. They have supplied evidence of their anointing through decades of time. They have supplied a track record. They are not people who, though supposedly 'godly,' really couldn't get along with anybody, but they have submitted their faith to practical full-time and unpaid test.  

They have proven their Christian qualities. Usually they have served in areas far more lowly than that of the ones whom they will later lead. No phony is going to do this....full-time, long-term, and unpaid...but only the genuine article.

In contrast, the case seems far weaker with so-called anointed who pop up with unique views and presently begin to separate themselves because they can't get along, grumbling that nobody is listening to them. I'm sorry...I just cannot get my head around renegade anointed roaming in the wilds.

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@TrueTomHarley Tom, what is important is the truth. We used to say 'we are in the truth'. That is why we go and preach to bring people to the truth. It is not about bringing people to the organization. That is not the main point. But it is the truth. Is it not the reason you got baptized? We did not dedicate ourselves to an organization but to God. Right? 

Has not the organization taught us to think in that way? But now when the GB demands that we blindly trust them, it should ring alarm bells for us. What will you do when the GB is taken out? Were will you go? Then you will have to find some wise and discreet slaves elsewhere. And their understanding will be quite different from the current understanding of all the end time prophecies. Especially the Revelation book. The events there did not begin in 1914. The earliest I can think of is 2010. But the rest of events of the Revelation book that still remain will not go for decads. It will be in a much shorter and intensive way. Especially during the 1260 days that the Revelation book speaks about.

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There seems to be more of us that believe the GB will be removed.  Who really knows only time will tell. 

It seems I'm wasting my time on here. I've said the things I've wanted to say and i haven't learnt anything that will bring me any closer to God or Jesus Christ. 

Time to look for the door outwards. 

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As Mr Hartley rightly said.  If a person cannot submit himself to others - each one wants to be the king sitting next to Jesus? How is an anointed going to rule together in peace with others in heaven?  Blessed are the peacemakers for they will see God.  Jesus was the ultimate humble one.  We should show the fruitage of the spirit and just be grateful we understand the scriptures and are taught by the holy spirit. This helps us to carry on in a world and congregation where everything is not perfect. The nation of israel was not perfect - but they were used by Jehovah to bring forth the messiah.  There is also a time to talk and a time to keep quiet.   ...... But I truly believe that ego is the source of all problems - like satan.  One can easily believe that you have the right and the knowledge to create divisions. 

I  have a recent example in my own life: been in several Arabic groups and recently joined an arabic congregation in my territory.   I moved from one city to another as my husband changed jobs.  There are brothers there who come from Islamic background.  They asked me not to speak to the newcomer visitors who are men too much. Just greet them.  (Even though some of them love to talk to me - an old silly lady who is very friendly and crazy - they look me up - not me them!). These elders were thinking totally from a Muslim perspective.    I was taken aback?  Is this not the place where these Muslims must see the difference to their own world and culture? They did not appear to be offended to speak to me?

With the brothers and their cultural background I can give them many explanations to prove they are wrong - their thinking is wrong.  I have worked with Muslims and I can honestly say - in the field service the men just love my strong confident and funny way of explaining things......Nevertheless - I accepted the correction and will just trust in Jehovah that he will sort it in his time....  I trust Jehovah.  For a small stupid thing like that ....  I can promote peace and help create peace in the congregation.   I can tell them I have superior cultural insight ...... will this work?  I do not think it will be a wise or smart  move.... Most things sort themselves out in time - similarly the teachings....

I honestly believe that one must identify the slave.  " Who is the discreet slave?" .  The bible asks a question. This slave will be organized so it can give spiritual food to all of the disciples on time to keep them strong.   It is in the congregation where we have the brotherhood to stay strong and get Jehovah's spirit and be encouraged by others. I am not going to jeopardize my place in it for my superior insight..... and I have a very good way of reasoning to prove they are wrong..... but I will not go into that now.

The bottom line is this:  an anointed (or any other) who separates from his brothers has a problem. Especially if he /she is not showing fruitage of a peaceful spirit and uses the knowledge they have to cause divisions.    These dissenters can be mild tempered - more so than other brothers..... but their intent has shifted just a few degrees to make them an enemy of Jehovah while still thinking they are serving the true god. 

So anyone telling Mr Butler he is right to separate himself has proved their fruitage.... The bible shows there will be 'one' undivided nation on earth in time of end who learn war no more.   If you can give me proof of some other nation which does not follow the trinity, immortality of the soul etc etc and are united - let me know......  I might investigate them to join. 

Until you bring the evidence - I trust the  "imperfect men who form the GB - to do their imperfect job - as Jehovah always uses imperfect but obedient men for his purposes. (Noah got drunk- david committed adultery - want more examples?) Similarly , Paul,  Barnabas and Peter subjected themselves to the GB in Jerusalem and went to testify there about the acceptance of Jehovah of the "nations". 

If you are not in unity with this nation - you have a problem and may not be sealed.  This is between you and Jehovah....  but I hate to see people misleading others by kind but deceptive words.  If you find yourself outside the congregation - there is usually a good reason for it.  Do not blame the brothers like Adam blamed Satan.... I need the brothers and sisters - so I will promote peace and quickly forgive so I can remain in peace with all.....  after all - righteousness can only grow where there is peace. 

 

 

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