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Anna

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1 minute ago, Anna said:

No, you definitely don’t want to pretend, but have never been convinced of what you believed was the truth and later changed your perception of it, and adjusted it, in the light of more information? I think we have all done that. It seems like you naively think that truth will just pop up the first time. The Bible says we have to search for it, discover it, because it’s a hidden treasure (Prov 2:5, 6). Finding the truth isn’t a sudden revelation, it’s a journey, and on the way we may stumble over rocks, have to climb hills and descend valleys, before we even know where to dig.  But like I said before, fundamental truths (God’s name, God’s personality, God’s purpose for mankind, the way God wants us to live etc.) are there; so that people seeking those truths are able to go to the “mountain of Jehovah”  Isaiah 2:2,3.

In that case we wouldn't need an organisation and definitely would not need a Governing Body to 'teach us'  lies.  You make it sound poetic, almost romantic in you description, but it's not. 

God's name : YHWH or the Hebrew HWHY left to right.  So where is Jehovah in that ? Why not Yahweh ?  Who started the name Jehovah ? A Catholic Monk maybe ? 

And as for the way God wants us to live. The JW Org is way out of line in that case. 

I have to disagree with you completely Anna.  Zechariah 8 v 23

 “This is what Jehovah of armies says, ‘In those days ten men out of all the languages of the nations will take hold, yes, they will take firm hold of the robe of a Jew, saying: “We want to go with you, for we have heard that God is with you people.

It is not for us to dig, we do not have the guidance of God's Holy Spirit. Only the Anointed have that guidance. The Bible was written with Holy Spirit and only Holy Spirit will decipher it. 

Luke 24 v 45  Then he (Jesus) opened up their minds fully to grasp the meaning of the Scriptures, 

BUT they already had those scriptures. They had read those scriptures. So why didn't they understand them ?  Obviously because they needed Holy Spirit and guidance to understand them. 

I think this proves my point. Now we should have the anointed to open up the Scriptures to us, but we do not know who the Anointed are. Why ? Because the Governing Body of JW org has silenced the true Anointed ones. 

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1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Now we should have the anointed to open up the Scriptures to us, but we do not know who the Anointed are. Why ? Because the Governing Body of JW org has silenced the true Anointed ones. 

I do not believe Jehovah would allow some human/humans to silence his anointed, especially as you say, the anointed would be of paramount importance in disclosing the truth about Him in the “last days”. I am satisfied that these fundamental truths have been disclosed. I do not find them all together in one place anywhere among Christendom’s religions and sects, I don’t find them in Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, Judaism or any other religion but Jehovah’s Witnesses.

To your other point, saying that we cannot be sure how God’s name was pronounced, and why not call him Yahweh etc. well sure I would call him Yahweh but I speak English, and in English it is Jehovah. Many names are written and pronounced quite differently depending on what language you speak. So concerns and arguments about the exact pronunciation of God’s name are moot and kind of pointless really.

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11 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

I think this proves my point. Now we should have the anointed to open up the Scriptures to us, but we do not know who the Anointed are. Why ? Because the Governing Body of JW org has silenced the true Anointed ones. 

Hi John Butler, what do you think of my posts? Because I am doing my best to open up scriptures here on this forum. And I confess do be one of the anointed.

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On 12/5/2018 at 11:36 AM, Kosonen said:

Look how blind God's servant was in the past. Looks like the same repeats time and again. (I try hard that I would not fall for the same error, by following Jesus' words as much as I can).

 

They fell into idolatry, over and over, leaving the true worship of God, just as the anointed have done by supporting a worldly organization.  This organization has convinced them of its existence by stating it had its roots in the first century and established in Jerusalem by the apostles.  Yet, those same apostles accomplished their ministry through the direction of Holy Spirit, not through men. Acts 13:2,4; 8:26,27,29; Gal 1:11,12,16,17   Today’s anointed can barely move a muscle without the GB/Harlots and elders not anointed, telling them what and what not to do. They are certainly “trapped, plundered and pillaged”, as a people.  I can imagine how the apostles would have dealt with that.  3 John 9,10  https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+13%3A2%2C4%3B+8%3A26%2C27%2C29%3B+Gal+1%3A11%2C12%2C16%2C17%3B+3+John+1%3A9%2C10 &version=NIV

 The anointed also, are joining in spiritual adultery/harlotry by not listening to the Father and Christ’s direction through Holy Spirit that was placed in their heart upon their anointing.  I did the same thing.   Gal 4:6; 2 Cor 1:21,22      https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Gal+4%3A6%3B+2+Cor+1%3A21%2C22&version=NIV

 They refuse to hear what Holy Spirit can tell them.  John 14:16,26    Just as the scripture brings out that you quoted, they do not walk “in God’s way” but choose to remain blind to the direction they are to go, which is to join Christ and his “restored” Temple priests/”living stones”.   Their plundering is symbolic, being cut off from Christ and the Body, but very real through the practices of men who have been given false authority to judge them. Rom 14:4   God has allowed this to come upon spiritual “Israel” – Jacob.  By listening to men and not to Christ, they have sinned against Him.  https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+14%3A16%2C26&version=NIV

 

Rev 2:12-16 “To the angel of the church in Pergamum write:

These are the words of him who has the sharp, double-edged sword.13 I know where you live—where Satan has his throne. Yet you remain true to my name…

14 Nevertheless, I have a few things against you: There are some among you who hold to the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to entice the Israelites to sin so that they ate food sacrificed to idols and committed sexual immorality15 Likewise, you also have those who hold to the teaching of the Nicolaitans16 Repent therefore! Otherwise, I will soon come to you and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth."

Just briefly looking into this teaching of the Nicolaitans, we find it signifies, “victorious over the people”, “domineerers of the people”

Here’s more:

The two names (Nicolaitans, Balaam) have very similar meanings in their respective languages: “Balaam is derived from two Hebrew words, בָּלַע [bālaʿ] (‘he swallows’) and עָם [ʿām] (‘people’). Interestingly, according to the derivative meanings of the names, the two groups troubling this church [Pergamos] were ‘swallowers of the people’ (i.e., the Balaamites) and ‘conquerors of the people’ (i.e., the Nicolaitans).” If the similar meaning of their names is significant and their mention in adjoining verses in the letter to Pergamos is intended to show a relationship, then it is thought that the licentious tendencies of the Nicolaitans might be understood in light of the doctrine of Balaam.     http://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/revelation/related-topics/nicolaita

The elders, through direction of the GB/wicked slave are “conquers of the people”, which signifies the trademark of the “Man of Lawlessness” standing in the Temple of God. 2 Thess 2:,4 They have “swallowed” the true priesthood and supplanted themselves over God’s Temple stones and conquered their position by boastfully saying, “Rather than challenge their authority, we truly appreciate our hardworking elders!”.  This is under the ironic Watchtower subheading, “MUST YOU MEN ALSO TRY TO SECURE THE PRIESTHOOD?” of the WT 02/8/1 entitled, “LOYAL SUBMIT TO GODLY AUTHORITY”

The GB and elders are NOT submitting to Godly authority, but doing exactly what the subheading asks.  This is a typical twist that Satan is so good at braiding together. 

  They are “swallowed” by such captivity reflected in the prayerful cry of Jonah while in the fish.   Jonah 2:1-10; Isa 1:12-20  Only those who reject this rule, as we both have done, can relate to the plight of God’s inheritance.  Jesus said he will “fight against them with the sword of my mouth”.   

And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thess 2:8

Ps.55:21; Heb.4:12; Rev.2:12; John12:48; Rev.19:15          https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ps.55%3A21%3B+Heb.4%3A12%3B+Rev.2%3A12%3B+John12%3A48%3B+Rev.19%3A15&version=NIV

But, dear Kosonen, turning your eyes to the activities in the world of politics, is causing you to reject the place of “worship” that God has personally set up through His Son.  You are a “living stone” of that Temple.  Surely you desire to become one with its members?    The Temple stones have been brought to ruin in the Wt.  This is no different than what has happened in the past with Israel’s literal temples.  That is the scenario that relates to history, only spiritual.  “Gentile” elders – “Nicolatians” in characteristic form - have trampled God’s Temple stones, while upholding the Watchtower idol, sacrificing words of “praise” in its behalf.  Rev 13:4

Please, elders!  Consider your precarious position before the Father and Christ!  Have you been anointed by God?  Or, have you been “anointed” by the GB?  Does your appointment usurp the appointment made by God?

Kosonen, could it be you who ‘sees many things’, “but you do not keep watch. You open your ears, but you do not listen.”?

Look at these scriptures with a “new” spiritual eye on the living Temple of God (Luke 5:37,38)

Deut 12

“These are the decrees and laws you must be careful to follow in the land that the Lord, the God of your ancestors, has given you to possess—as long as you live in the land. Destroy completely all the places on the high mountains, on the hills and under every spreading tree, where the nations you are dispossessing worship their gods. Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones and burn their Asherah poles in the fire; cut down the idols of their gods and wipe out their names from those places.

You must not worship the Lord your God in their wayBut you are to seek the place the Lord your God will choose from among all your tribes to put his Name there for his dwelling.”   Deut 12:1-5

“Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?   If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.    ” 1 Cor 3:16,17

“The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will they leave it. I will write on them the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on them my new name.”  Rev 3:12

 

Deut 12 - To that place you must go; there bring your burnt offerings and sacrifices, your tithes and special gifts, what you have vowed to give and your freewill offerings, and the firstborn of your herds and flocks. Deut 12:6

“Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father.                                           But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. 24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.” John 4:21,23,24

“you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.”  1 Pet 2:5

Deut 12 -  “ There, in the presence of the Lord your God, you and your families shall eat and shall rejoice in everything you have put your hand to, because the Lord your God has blessed you.

You are not to do as we do here today, everyone doing as they see fit,since you have not yet reached the resting place and the inheritance the Lord your God is giving you.”                    

The apostles focused on the anointed and the believers with them.  Jesus set the foundation of the Temple and Truth, teaching them to worship “in spirit”.  Today, the remnant must readjust their personal spiritual damage, and damage to the Temple caused by Satan’s deceit.  Instead of concentrating on events that may or may not happen in his world, we are to help each other be “restored”, even though at the resistance of those who held power over us.  Nehemiah 1:4-9;2:17-20     https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Nehemiah+1%3A4-9%3B2%3A17-20+   &version=NIV

 1 Pet 4:17-19; Matt 7:13,14; 1 Cor 5:12,13a   https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Pet+4%3A17-19%3B+Matt+7%3A13%2C14%3B+1+Cor+5%3A12%2C13a&version=NIV

“Destroy completely all the high mountains”. Deut 12:2 The highest mountain that has come against the Temple of God is the “mountainlike organization” which has successfully defeated the anointed through DECEPTION.  Deception takes them down and I know you can’t dismiss that.   Please, don’t be gullible by thinking what you literally see happening in the world, is the fulfillment of Revelation.  Surely you are not dismissing everything that the apostles in Christ taught us beginning with the foundation of the Temple? 

How is the mountain “destroyed”?  God’s word is like “fire”, which I think you’ve brought out before, and put in the mouths of His chosen ones.  This fire brings about judgment against such a mountain. Heb 1:7; Matt 3:11; Acts 2:3,4 -  https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Heb+1%3A7%3B+Matt+3%3A11%3B+Acts+2%3A3%2C4&version=NIV

 

I hope you see that our focus must be on each other, the Temple, as brought out in Deuteronomy, and by Christ.  The anointed are to walk in Christs footsteps closer in fulfillment than we may realize.  We face the leaders of our own people who have placed “heavy burdens” on us and all JWs. Matt 23:4  We turn to the new true Temple of God built on the chief cornerstone, as did the apostles.  Satan will busy your mind with his worldly activities just to divert your attention from the perilous situation the “living stones” of God’s Temple already face.

If we do not “go to the place of God’s dwelling” will we reach the “resting place” and the inheritance set before us?

“Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it. For we also have had the good news proclaimed to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because they did not share the faith of those who obeyedNow we who have believed enter that rest, just as God has said,

“So I declared on oath in my anger,
    ‘They shall never enter my rest.’”

And yet his works have been finished since the creation of the world.

Therefore since it still remains for some to enter that rest, and since those who formerly had the good news proclaimed to them did not go in because of their disobedienceGod again set a certain day, calling it “Today.” This he did when a long time later he spoke through David, as in the passage already quoted:

“Today, if you hear his voice,
    do not harden your hearts.”

For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God10 for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from their works, just as God did from his. 11 Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will perish by following their example of disobedience.

12 For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. 13 Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account.

14 Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has ascended into heaven,[f] Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess. 15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet he did not sin. 16 Let us then approach God’s throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.”  Heb 4:1-3,6-14

Where is God’s throne? 

“But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly.   to the church of the firstborn, (the anointed Body of Christ)

whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect24 to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.”  Heb 12:22-24

We come to the Temple of God. We proclaim how the Temple has been transgressed by the already present “Man of Lawlessness” – the elder body.  Need it be bigger and more obvious from the world of politics?  No! It only takes one person to crush another; yet, the army of elders is much more expansive and impressive than the number of anointed ones.  Rev 9:3-6; Joel 1:6,7  Through a Wicked Slave assuming the role of “High Priest”, it has thoroughly crushed the position of the anointed, making their identity as a priesthood, nonexistent!

It is our ministry during the last days.  Rev 11:1-3; Matt 10:23; 24:15,16  https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev+11%3A1-3%3B+Matt+10%3A23%3B+24%3A15%2C16&version=NIV

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On 12/6/2018 at 9:11 PM, Anna said:

Also here are the participants of this years' meeting:

Know anyone? xD

Oddly enough, I do know one of them. Rebecca Newberger Goldstein lives just around the corner from my daughter and son-in-law. My sister-in-law teaches at NYU, which allows me to go to lectures (I rarely do) where she (Goldstein) was invited as speaker at one and a round-table-member at one. From what I can tell, she would be the closest thing to a "religious" voice in the list of Bilderberg participants.

My wife, as a district level director of NY public school programs had also attended a seminar where Peggy Noonan spoke, a columnist I don't like.  And on a shelf somewhere among 1,000s of others, we still have a book signed by Noonan. I suppose she was doing seminar lectures as a more discreet form of a book tour, even though she was giving them away at this point.

I get the sense that this Bilderberg thing is a kind of think-tank to manage expectations about (and to protect) Western interests in the face of events and trends that might disturb the peace and profitability of those same Western interests. David Petraeus? Henry Kissinger? James Baker?

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On 12/6/2018 at 11:40 AM, JOHN BUTLER said:

And Rutherford was supposed to a be one of the human foundation stones of the JW Org ?  Hum, well it makes me distrust the Org even more now.

I have never heard this expression "human foundation stones of the JW. org, but I know what you mean. However, I see that you still have some trust in the organization. You must have at least had some to be able to say that it is now less.

But this wasn't the point. I think people make too much of the humans who have been used and involved in the history of the Org. It is what it is, and for me the organization represents the most respectable attempt in recent history to present an international teaching ministry, making Bible teaching available for free to nearly the entire world. It's a teaching that is consistent, gives hope, encourages high morality, and presents a Christianity that has excellent advantages over other forms. You may disagree over some of the basic fundamental teachings of JWs, I happen to agree with the basics. I disagree with what I consider a lot of less significant issues, and for most of these disagreements, it means almost nothing in the scheme of things. There are a few moderately important issues that I disagree with, but I think these are also already on the way out. (I notice that, as an organization, we are almost able to laugh at ourselves with respect to some of these past errors and false doctrines. -- And, yes, one of the things I disagree with is our general inability to use the term "false doctrine" to refer to a past teaching that turned out to be false.)

I know your biggest issue, you said, was the child abuse issue, and I agree that it is big. Much bigger than most Witnesses realize. But as many have said, we don't produce pedophiles and child molesters. We may have needed big improvements in our processes, just as so many other institutions have needed. We should all push for more improvements even if this means exposing the seriousness of injustice to children, and exposing these issues to the light. But you sometimes give the impression that anytime a serious sin is seen in this organization that it means God has removed his blessing from all of us, especially the leadership. I don't expect so much out of the leadership as others, and from what I know, they are trying to do a good job going forward, and have a weakness in the area of admitting mistakes of the past. I think the only way we can see past the human error and focus on the leadership of Jesus under the headship of Jehovah, is to avoid putting the human leadership on so high a pedestal in the first place.

If we can see the human leadership as just as sinful and imperfect as the rest of us, this is a GOOD thing, in my opinion. And there are plenty of good reasons to make note of their imperfections and sinfulness. It's not to find fault and make you trust them less; it's to make us trust the leadership of Jesus and Jehovah, all the more.

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@Witness So then, assassination of the Governing Body of CCJW, and complete destruction of CCJW and Watchtower Inc, yes ? 

Sounds drastic ? Why ? Just think about what God allowed the Romans to do to Jerusalem. The Nation of Israel were God's chosen people. They disobeyed God and paid the price. So, the GB and CCJW  and  Wt Inc. .............  

However when is this gathering of the Anointed, proven Anointed that is, taking place ? 

I'm going back to  this :   TEN MEN CLINGING TO THE SKIRT OF A SPIRITUAL JEW. ..........  WHEN ? 

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On 12/7/2018 at 6:49 AM, JOHN BUTLER said:

So basically every time the GB discovers something they know is wrong or bad, they make up an excuse for it.

That has happened, but it's not what I said. There was a time when the focus was always on Russell and how great he was as one of the major historical contributors to the "faithful and discreet slave." We had a doctrine that claimed that there were always members of this faithful and discreet slave alive at any given time on the earth since the Christian congregation was formed just after Pentecost of 33 CE. 

In fact, there was a research assignment for history buffs that was supposed to become a part of the "Proclaimers" book, that was supposed to go into a lot more detail about some of the groups that our publications had identified in the past, who were typically persecuted for not believing in the Trinity (Arians, for example), and those who stood up against the powerful religious leaders of their time and tried to publish truths for wider distribution to everyone. The GB members behind this effort were so disappointed in the results that they dropped the idea from the "Proclaimers" book, and began to drop the teaching altogether, so that we rarely spoke any more about about Arius, Wycliffe, Tyndale, the Waldenses, etc. 

The focus of that book became a chance to show how Russell stood out among those he had learned from: Grew, Stetson, Brown, Miller, Paton, Seiss, Storrs, Barbour, etc. But even this effort began to show that Russell was rather eclectic, and was just as apt to pick up a wrong idea as a good idea and run with it. But the biggest "new" issue that was being learned about Russell was that so many of the early Bible Students who followed Russell were actually in an end-times chronoloy cult. This was not Russell's fault, but he had the kind of convincing personality that drew people to him. Rutherford was a Russellite cult member too for many years. But it was in 1919 that Rutherford realized this. If Rutherford had not used shrewd (and technically illegal) means to grasp the Watchtower organization from the majority of the Russellite leadership that Russell had chosen, then the Watchtower would probably still be just another Russellite "cult."

The real cut-off from Russell began in 1919, and it took another decade for Rutherford to completely figure out how to do that. And this is one of the reasons that the Watchtower today, since 2012, teaches that the true "faithful and discreet slave" no longer includes Russell, even though for many years up until 1919, Russell was had been considered to be the ONLY member of the "faithful and discreet slave."

I'm not saying that the current Governing Body necessarily did the right thing in identifying only themselves as the current FDS, but at least, since 2012, they have taken measures to remove much of the emphasis on Russell himself, by removing him from any identification with the  "faithful and discreet slave."

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22 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

God's name : YHWH or the Hebrew HWHY left to right.  So where is Jehovah in that ? Why not Yahweh ?  Who started the name Jehovah ? A Catholic Monk maybe ?

Anna and Outta Here have already said it and pointed to material that says it, and I'm sure you have heard the argument before while associating with Witnesses. But here it is again: there is a logical problem with your argument. God's name in Hebrew is YHWH, true, but this doesn't automatically mean that Yahweh is the correct pronunciation. Why not Yehowah? In fact, there are languages today where the most common pronunciation of the Divine Name is exactly that: Yehowah.

Admittedly this was influenced from English, and a major contributor to the popularization of that form of the name was a Catholic monk. But as Anna said, there are other names where we use a modern English or other modern-language equivalent. The name for Jeremiah was YRMYH. Do you argue,  why not Yarmayah? It's possible (though highly unlikely) that this was how it was pronounced. But some modern languages will pronounce it Yeremiah, even in the WTS publications in those languages. The divine name is a special case and perhaps this means we should give it special scholarly treatment in selecting the most likely pronunciation. However, even here, if it turned out to be Yahweh, that form in English would be Jahveh. We don't say Yeshuah, we say Jesus (because that form of the name Joshua had already been "hellenized" to Yesous.) Sometimes the change is even more significant, like Yakob to James or even Santiago.

To me, these arguments sound a bit like straining the gnat, but not very consistently.

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2 hours ago, JW Insider said:
On 12/6/2018 at 9:11 PM, Anna said:

Also here are the participants of this years' meeting:

Know anyone? xD

Oddly enough, I do know one of them. Rebecca Newberger Goldstein lives just around the corner from my daughter and son-in-law. My sister-in-law teaches at NYU, which allows me to go to lectures (I rarely do) where she (Goldstein) was invited as speaker at one and a round-table-member at one. From what I can tell, she would be the closest thing to a "religious" voice in the list of Bilderberg participants.

 

When I typed this question the thought did cross my mind, that probably JW Insider knows someone xD. Interesting.

I remember you saying your wife being the director of public school programs.

2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Peggy Noonan spoke, a columnist I don't like.

The group must like her a lot, since she is on the list for the past three years, lol.

2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

I get the sense that this Bilderberg thing is a kind of think-tank to manage expectations about (and to protect) Western interests in the face of events and trends that might disturb the peace and profitability of those same Western interests.

Yes. This is kind of how it is described on their "about" page. Think-tank is a good way of describing it. It reminds me of when I used to work for a Saudi ambassador. One of my jobs was to find and print interesting articles from think tank websites such as epc.eu.  I think the conspiracy theorists are trying to say that these meetings are organized in order to better take over the world eventually. Of course, any meetings of this type are unambiguously focused on as you say; protecting profitability. I am not surprised that people get suspicious about the ways of ensuring profitability.  As we know, "the love of money is a root of all sorts of injurious things".

I hope your trip to Warwick was a good one. Did anyone come up to you?

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12 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

I have never heard this expression "human foundation stones of the JW. org, but I know what you mean. However, I see that you still have some trust in the organization. You must have at least had some to be able to say that it is now less.

But this wasn't the point. I think people make too much of the humans who have been used and involved in the history of the Org. It is what it is, and for me the organization represents the most respectable attempt in recent history to present an international teaching ministry, making Bible teaching available for free to nearly the entire world. It's a teaching that is consistent, gives hope, encourages high morality, and presents a Christianity that has excellent advantages over other forms. You may disagree over some of the basic fundamental teachings of JWs, I happen to agree with the basics. I disagree with what I consider a lot of less significant issues, and for most of these disagreements, it means almost nothing in the scheme of things. There are a few moderately important issues that I disagree with, but I think these are also already on the way out. (I notice that, as an organization, we are almost able to laugh at ourselves with respect to some of these past errors and false doctrines. -- And, yes, one of the things I disagree with is our general inability to use the term "false doctrine" to refer to a past teaching that turned out to be false.)

I know your biggest issue, you said, was the child abuse issue, and I agree that it is big. Much bigger than most Witnesses realize. But as many have said, we don't produce pedophiles and child molesters. We may have needed big improvements in our processes, just as so many other institutions have needed. We should all push for more improvements even if this means exposing the seriousness of injustice to children, and exposing these issues to the light. But you sometimes give the impression that anytime a serious sin is seen in this organization that it means God has removed his blessing from all of us, especially the leadership. I don't expect so much out of the leadership as others, and from what I know, they are trying to do a good job going forward, and have a weakness in the area of admitting mistakes of the past. I think the only way we can see past the human error and focus on the leadership of Jesus under the headship of Jehovah, is to avoid putting the human leadership on so high a pedestal in the first place.

If we can see the human leadership as just as sinful and imperfect as the rest of us, this is a GOOD thing, in my opinion. And there are plenty of good reasons to make note of their imperfections and sinfulness. It's not to find fault and make you trust them less; it's to make us trust the leadership of Jesus and Jehovah, all the more.

@JW Insider That expression came from my own head. 'Human foundation stones'  Those two men R & R are sometimes put 'on high' and then sometimes 'disowned'. I find that funny. It seems they were once seen as part of the Faithful Slave and are now seen to be NOT of the Faithful Slave. 

Trust in the CCJW ?   Well you will know my personal history of course, so when my brother introduced me to the JW Org (as I tend to call it)  I found that it made sense and people were kind and helpful. However over the years the things I was first taught have been 'wiped out', and therefore things make less sense. And the fact that the Anointed have been pushed to one side and the GB have chosen to exalt themselves, by calling themselves the Faithful and discreet slave, whereas all of the Anointed were once the Faithful and discreet slave,  this shows a dictatorship within the JW org.  The Elders unfortunately are just Policemen, obeying orders from the GB through the 'chain of command'.  A few bits of the teachings are still 'sound' but the whole Organisation is in deep trouble, more so with God than with men. 

Quote 'encourages high morality'. UM questionable don't you think, in view of the massive amount of HIDDEN  Child Abuse Earthwide within the JW Org.   (and you will know i have some details of such a case within my ex-congregation). Then to hide the Child Abuse even more the GB start accusing adults (one male one female) of fornication, when NO WITNESSES  are needed to confirm it. Nice try at a diversion.  

Quote ; "(I notice that, as an organization, we are almost able to laugh at ourselves with respect to some of these past errors and false doctrines. ". UM, don't you consider the facts of collateral damage ? Do you laugh at the number of people you have stumbled by false teachings ? 

Quote : "we don't produce pedophiles and child molesters"  NO BUT THE ORGANISATION HIDES THEM WITHIN.  Refuses to hand over documents which could lead to Pedophiles being prosecuted and put in prison where they belong. And if a person needs mental care / help then giving info to authorities would help that person. And WHAT ABOUT THE VICTIMS ?  Do you think they are all liars ?  Do you think all of them Earthwide have made it all up just to get money from the Org ? 

Quote "We should all push for more improvements even if this means exposing the seriousness of injustice to children, and exposing these issues to the light."   I did i left the JW org, and that is what eveyone should have done.   Trying to 'push for improvement' whilst in the Org would get a person disfellowshipped for 'Causing division within the congregation'. My brother is an Elder, i asked his advice before i made my decision. 

Quote :" just as so many other institutions have needed ". Stop making comparisons. Your Org is supposed to be No part of the World, so why compare with others that are Part of the World.   

Quote :" that it means God has removed his blessing from all of us, especially the leadership. I don't expect so much out of the leadership .. 

Matthew 5 v 48  You must accordingly be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Quote : " it's to make us trust the leadership of Jesus and Jehovah, all the more. " If the GB came off of their pedestal and DID trust God and Jesus more then they wouldn't allow so many false teachings / lies in the Org. AND the GB would allow ALL of the Anointed to be recognised and be of the Faithful Slave. 

However, i am in agreement with others on here, that the GB are showing themselves to be the Wicked Slave class, mistreating the 'domestics'.  

In my opinion big changes are coming. The GB have to be removed, in any way that God chooses. The JW Org may have to be destroyed, if God chooses to do it, or to let it be done. As in the destruction of Jerusalem. 

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