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Another session where it starts off with 'Jehovah's name' and then turns into a bashing session.  Obsessed with bashing?  What kind of Christian quality is that?   most apostates have OCD - I recognize the signs immediately! They have an emotional sickness - they spend their time bashing........ So I will get back to the subject - that of Jehovah's name.   

There are now more than 1000 extant manuscripts where the pronunciation of name "jehova" appears.  Any case, you need no other proof than the names Jeho-ram, jeho-safat, and hallelu-jah to know what the syllables were before.  Plain common sense - unless you do not want to accept this and are smarter than the scholar who has been collecting copies of these extant copies all over the world. 

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Yes of course, Satan is in control of the world, and that perfectly explains the "mess", but by discussing these things we are not making ourselves a part of it are we? Not only that, but notice that

@Arauna I was thinking about the frustrations you expressed earlier. I will create a club on here for JW's that feel as you do. I too sometimes feel frustration when conversations are constantly

Outside of the context of the Christian organization, anybody can say that they are anointed. I can say it. You can say it. Anyone can say it. They might be genuine. They might be deluded. They m

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Then you end up trusting the deceivers?    

I am not deceived by those anointed who are jealous of the control by others - as they wish to depict the situation.  This means they want a bigger say - more control?  Want to be central in the decision making?   .... because they are the true anointed?   .......  True anointed are very humble and do not think they have all the knowledge which others do not have even if they are taught by jehovah.   They will keep peace at all costs because righteousness only grows where there is peace and peacemakers are blessed by Jehovah......  These people oppose the GB..... and where can they go? They are not peacemakers but destroyers and sowers of doubt - in very subtle ways! 

The bible clearly says that Jehovah has one mountain of worship in the last days where all will stream to learn the laws from heavenly Zion and they will learn war no more  Is 2:2-4.  These dissenters have no nation - they are  dissenters to criticize and go about deceiving and sowing doubt - great!   This proves they have all the qualities such as mentioned in Gal 5:22 such as patience, love, joy, etc?   Not on your life!     They see themselves as the true anointed separate from the organization???  I have read no scripture to this effect.

Satan loves control - even in minute ways.  People can use their power over others to deceive...... manipulate ... such as quoting scriptures to deceive!  I am not taken in by this and neither should you.  These people have the wrong spirit even if they can quote the bible ad nauseum out of its correct context! 

The organization was cleaned up after 1914 but it was not perfect......  The organization is being cleaned up as we go along and the light is getting brighter... of course Rutherford did stupid stuff - but so did Israel - the nation which Jehovah used before!    But we have a long way since then....... and all this unhappiness is about the POSITION -  not being acknowledged as true anointed and appointed to lead?.   I say their arrogance has made them lose their opportunity to lead.    If they are not careful and do not repent they will be permanent ly rejected by Jehovah and will not be sealed before their death.  

They are suffering from the same sickness as Satan had ..... hence the OCD. 

 

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3 hours ago, Arauna said:

I left this forum before because the hate is just too much for me here.  It is a breading ground for all the dissenters.   I prefer to discuss world affairs in light of prophecy where I do not have to deal with people who visit a site like this just to vent their emotions which makes them illogical and full of hatefulness.   I have seen arrogance here that it is just too much to waste my time to deal with.  

Fools - yes fools - because the bible calls those foolish ones who spend their time in the pursuit of breaking down.  They cannot think for themselves or ponder on the fact that the history of Israel is given as an example to us.   They were the people of Jehovah (in a covenant relationship with him) but you can study all the IMPURITIES and injustice that infiltrated the nation despite their having a law to teach them what is right and wrong.  Their management of course went without a hitch!  They were just perfect - so perfect that Jehovah never had to bring all the curses upon them described in Deuteronomy!       Despite all this waywardness of the nation and individuals, Jehovah managed to bring his plan to fruition to bring forth the Messiah - exactly on time!     

Today Jehovah also has a nation in a covenant relationship with him.  Are they perfect!  Hell NO!  They are prone to the same sins as everyone else... but they are fulfilling the prophecies of warning the entire earth to remain NEUTRAL to world politics and remain within his principals.  They definitely are PURE regarding the teachings of trinity, hellfire, pagan traditions, and immortality of the soul and many more.  Are there wayward individuals whose hearts are not PURE - definitely.   But Jehovah removes his spirit from them if they persist in their ways - especially if they are just critical and do not appreciate the good things they have learnt!   They are like Esau and they do not have the qualities of the spirit.  As far as I remember hate and criticism of brothers is not a fruit of the spirit. .....    I would just like to have a logical conversation without all these nasty qualities always sticking out as the main theme! 

If you cannot face the truth then go somewhere else if you need to be cuddled. 

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Mr Butler -  so loving - I do not need cuddling - definitely not from you  and I am not easily deceived as you are.  You have found yourself an eco-chamber here that is all!   People who encourage you in your folly!

That is why I left -  it has become an eco-chamber for apostates - not people who can reason objectively! 

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10 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Of those two, only Russell was removed from the "list." Rutherford remains, but some of Rutherford's faults have been candidly admitted. I wouldn't say anyone has "disowned" Rutherford, although I worked with two brothers in the 1970's who still admitted that they held a strong grudge against the judge. If you know some of the stories about him it's a lot easier to read between the lines in the publications and from experiences various brothers had with him that have been mentioned in interviews. But you don't have to be liked to be faithful and discreet. There are a few things I don't like about Rutherford and a few that I do like. I don't think of him as a key part of the FDS nor any kind of "foundation stone." Among many righteous and courageous things he stood for, he was instrumental in keeping control of the assets of the Watchtower Society, and that name, having been associated with Russell and the work of the Kingdom as they understood it, kept a core portion of Bible Students together at a critical time. Otherwise, it's possible that Rutherford might have become a footnote.

A couple things make no sense, because human traditions create strongly entrenched things. Things just get more awkward when someone has to grasp at straws to make sense of things after they have been proven to be obsolete. Outside of about 5 topic areas, however, I happen to think that most things make even more sense now, especially looking at all the changes since about the year 2000. Also, I think we've dropped a lot of things that just can't be made to work anymore, but the WTS hasn't completely abandoned the ideas completely and has sometimes chosen untenable solutions to issues created by the older teachings. It's like sewing new patches of unshrunk cloth on old garments. After everything is "cut and dried," it just doesn't wash!

All anointed Christians are no longer identified as THE faithful and discreet slave. But this wouldn't stop anointed Christians from being faithful and discreet slaves. This is something that all Christians are supposed to be, no matter what they claim to know about their ultimate place where they will serve in God's Kingdom throughout their eternal lives. True Christians who are faithful and discreet slaves will have this attitude:

  • (1 Peter 4:10) . . .To the extent that each one has received a gift, use it in ministering to one another as fine stewards of God’s undeserved kindness that is expressed in various ways.
  • (1 Corinthians 4:2, 3) 2 In this regard, what is expected of stewards is that they be found faithful. 3 Now to me it is of very little importance to be examined by you or by a human tribunal.. . .

I agree that it is an unfortunate circumstance that has probably led the Governing Body to believe that they need to bestow this title upon themselves to be respected for "authority" they believe is necessary to effectively lead thousands of local congregations and millions of brothers and sisters. I think it is a human failing to be expected in every religious organization on earth. For me the point of an organization is the idea that it provides a ready-made social group with which we can begin putting our Christianity into practice. It's a support group for the stronger to help the weaker, the richer to help the poorer -- and for all to provide an example to one another, both physical and spiritual encouragement and nourishment to one another. 

Such a group will be expected to put forth a set of teachings, which might be half right and half wrong, but it's a start for us to discuss. As the teachings are tested and questioned, the surer things and the more important things will rise to the top. It's true, as you say, that weak elders will not question and will become "policemen." But it is still our duty to test and question. If we are kicked out for it, so be it. If the "policemen" think it's right to break up families and natural affection over such questions then this is a tragedy and needs to be changed if we want to be Christian. Christianity is a constant fight for righteousness. It's easier in a social group of like minded persons, even though a social group, being human, will naturally have abusers who want to rise to the top just to be "policemen."

*** w77 10/1 p. 599 The Christian Congregation and Its Operation ***

  • They are not governors or “masters” of the lives or faith of Jehovah’s Witnesses, but are viewed as brothers and equals having a duty of stewardship. —1 Cor. 4:1, 2; 2 Cor. 1:24; 1 Pet. 4:10.

Back in 1977, discussing the Governing Body, this verse from 2 Cor was included along with the two other scriptures I already quoted above. The one I hadn't quoted yet was the middle one:

  • (2 Corinthians 1:24) Not that we are the masters over your faith, but we are fellow workers for your joy, for it is by your faith that you are standing.

This is one big problem. I'm not minimizing it. We no longer encourage the hiding of child abuse. It still happens, of course. I think it's from shame. We just don't want to admit something so horrible is as much among us as among others. Those who think it's best to hide it are not thinking the way Jehovah wants us to think; they are not thinking about what true justice really is. It's rampant criminal stupidity, and we are not immune.

True. Some have left, thinking this might allow them to push for change more effectively. Some, in the past, have pushed on the issue and then even been pushed out when they did not want to leave. But you left and I wonder if you really think that it made more people aware of the problem, than if you had just brought it up matter-of-factly in normal conversation to as many people as possible first, before leaving. Also, don't you think that this really requires a top-down approach. And by the way, I know of an elder in California who has stepped down and discontinued his former level of association with the congregation and who spends much time actively campaigning for worldwide change and national political change on this issue. If he is to be believed, he has not been approached by any persons or committee about disfellowshipping or disassociation. I honestly don't think the WTS would ever want to make a move against such a person again. It would be devastating to the current and potential court cases. Also, note that in recent court cases there are apparently less of them trying to mitigate against the seriousness of the specific crime itself. They are primarily trying to mitigate against financial loss to the corporate entities whose representatives argue that the responsibility for child sexual abuse does not lie in following the promoted rules, guides, and processes of the WTS, which they also believe, in good faith, have been Bible-based.

True. I don't expect the leadership of any human organization to be perfect. Ultimately we must be, and it should always guide our motives and goals. But don't expect it anywhere. As TrueTomHarley has often tried to point out, we might expect that Christian methods of dealing with the issue might make our numbers (statistics) actually come out better when compared against institutions of the world. Perhaps they already are. But there are factors that might fight against this, too. Just as Catholics bring supposedly celibate men into the priesthood, Witnesses attract persons who believe that association alone might change their wicked desires. Witnesses might also attract those who believe that fellow Witnesses are extremely trusting and naive, "babes to badness" as it were.

If that happens, do you see yourself believing that this organization must have been "God's chosen" one, just as Jerusalem represented an earthly organization of God's chosen ones? I get the feeling that you don't feel there is any significance to the JW Org in our day, and probably don't feel that big changes would really be a cleaning out by God's direct intervention.

I think that most if not all the current Governing Body are doing a pretty good job as expected in most areas of concern. But they are also steeped in our own long organizational tradition, and captivated by the idea that they have been asked to serve in an awesome, overwhelming position of responsibility. One of those areas of responsibility is finding and choosing others who should be asked to serve in such a position. In such a situation, I don't see them as bad or unworthy, but just trying to do the best they can in the situation they find themselves serving. An ex-member who was a strong critic of the Governing Body called it being "captives of a concept." The same ex-member said that a big part of that "concept" is based on seeing certain changes as inconceivable, especially where it comes to a perceived need to "police" the faith of millions of followers. I think you (and the ex-JW I refer to) are both partly right in this regard. Because their vantage point sees reports of activity always "rolled up" in terms of a works-based faith, it will likely be a while before we see a change from "activity-based faith" to "faith-based activity." As people who came up through the rules of the organization as they have always been, it's probably all they are seeing every day, and it's so much to deal with that they haven't yet looked very far outside the box.

It's a quarter to 11 am here in Devon England, and I haven't been out of bed long. The reason i tell you this is to say that I'm not too wide awake yet. BUT having read through your answer to my comment, you seem  to be agreeing with me on a lot of things, only then making excuses for the GB and JW Org. 

Quote If that happens, do you see yourself believing that this organization must have been "God's chosen" one, just as Jerusalem represented an earthly organization of God's chosen ones? I get the feeling that you don't feel there is any significance to the JW Org in our day, and probably don't feel that big changes would really be a cleaning out by God's direct intervention.

First off, I do not think the GB are up to the job, and that is probably of their own doing. I feel that the GB need removing and replacing. I find it strange that some folks on here get so upset by this idea. Don't they know how many people God has removed in the past. Don't they think on the punishments God gave to His own Nation. In my opinion it would make more sense to have a GB of 12 men (for obvious reasons, 12 tribes, 12 Apostles, although there were actually 13 of each) and for those 12 men to be from different countries / nations. To have basically 8 American White men  (yes I know 7 are white and 7 are American ) but it seems a bit racist / nationalistic to me. Not in the true sense obviously but, one thing that has been said about the Heavenly Class, is that they know about our feelings and can have empathy, because they were once here on this Earth with us. So, along those lines,  if there were 12 men from different countries, they would better understand the culture / way of thinking / behavior etc, of 'their own people' / people of their own human race. 

The JW Org. As I've said before, is like a Taxi. If it's going in the right direction you stay in it. If it goes in the wrong direction you get out asap. Now if that Taxi breaks down, you either repair it or replace it. So, the JWorg. It seems to be either going in the wrong direction or it's broken down and going nowhere. I would honestly love to see it cleaned up by God through Jesus Christ. Because of course honest hearted people desperately need an honest spiritual organisation. It make no sense to me, if we are sooooo near Armageddon, to have the Org broken down and in a disgusting state. 

I keep coming back the the 'Ten men clinging to the skirt of a Jew' scripture. And someone else on here (sorry forgotten whom) said that this is already happening, and has given me direction to another web site. But I haven't investigated that yet and i will use caution when i do. 

My feeling are that true Anointed ones would not be on this here site /forum. And I feel they would be gathering together, not disagreeing with each other. BUT as I've said before, I have found in my life that I do not know the truth about anything. 

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3 hours ago, Arauna said:

Another session where it starts off with 'Jehovah's name' and then turns into a bashing session.  Obsessed with bashing?  What kind of Christian quality is that?   most apostates have OCD - I recognize the signs immediately! They have an emotional sickness - they spend their time bashing........ So I will get back to the subject - that of Jehovah's name.   

There are now more than 1000 extant manuscripts where the pronunciation of name "jehova" appears.  Any case, you need no other proof than the names Jeho-ram, jeho-safat, and hallelu-jah to know what the syllables were before.  Plain common sense - unless you do not want to accept this and are smarter than the scholar who has been collecting copies of these extant copies all over the world. 

Wow you are sooooo clever you can diagnose people's 'sickness' via the internet. Clairvoyant are you ? Be careful i think that is demonism. 

No, what the reality is, is simple. It seems that you do not like truth or logic. What you call bashing, would have been bred into you by the GB/Elders/JW Org. The real word is questioning, but of course the GB/Elders/JW org do not want questioning. 

I've been given to understand that Jesus' real name is something like Yeshua. Yes or No ?  And i was always taught the tetragrammaton was YHWH not JHVH. Correct of not ? Now if that Tetragrammaton had a meaning / descriptive of God, then i would have thought by altering the letters it would alter the meaning. Just the thoughts of a simple man. 

and all those names you have quoted, could they have originally have started with 'Y' instead of 'J'  

Hallelujah - Wikipedia

Hallelujah is an English interjection. It is a transliteration of the Hebrew word הַלְלוּיָהּ which is ... Translation, Holman Christian Standard Bible, and The Message, with the spelling "Halleluyah" appearing in the Complete Jewish Bible.
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1 hour ago, Arauna said:

Then you end up trusting the deceivers?    

I am not deceived by those anointed who are jealous of the control by others - as they wish to depict the situation.  This means they want a bigger say - more control?  Want to be central in the decision making?   .... because they are the true anointed?   .......  True anointed are very humble and do not think they have all the knowledge which others do not have even if they are taught by jehovah.   They will keep peace at all costs because righteousness only grows where there is peace and peacemakers are blessed by Jehovah......  These people oppose the GB..... and where can they go? They are not peacemakers but destroyers and sowers of doubt - in very subtle ways! 

The bible clearly says that Jehovah has one mountain of worship in the last days where all will stream to learn the laws from heavenly Zion and they will learn war no more  Is 2:2-4.  These dissenters have no nation - they are  dissenters to criticize and go about deceiving and sowing doubt - great!   This proves they have all the qualities such as mentioned in Gal 5:22 such as patience, love, joy, etc?   Not on your life!     They see themselves as the true anointed separate from the organization???  I have read no scripture to this effect.

Satan loves control - even in minute ways.  People can use their power over others to deceive...... manipulate ... such as quoting scriptures to deceive!  I am not taken in by this and neither should you.  These people have the wrong spirit even if they can quote the bible ad nauseum out of its correct context! 

The organization was cleaned up after 1914 but it was not perfect......  The organization is being cleaned up as we go along and the light is getting brighter... of course Rutherford did stupid stuff - but so did Israel - the nation which Jehovah used before!    But we have a long way since then....... and all this unhappiness is about the POSITION -  not being acknowledged as true anointed and appointed to lead?.   I say their arrogance has made them lose their opportunity to lead.    If they are not careful and do not repent they will be permanent ly rejected by Jehovah and will not be sealed before their death.  

They are suffering from the same sickness as Satan had ..... hence the OCD. 

Everything you have said about others, just perfectly fits the description of the GB. That is sooo funny. 

they want a bigger say - more control? Yes the GB do, that's why they hushed up the rest of the Anointed. 

People can use their power over others to deceive...... manipulate. Yes the GB do. Then constantly moving the goal posts to make sure they keep in control. 

The organization is being cleaned up as we go along ..  Let's hope it is. Removal of the GB would prove it. A new GB would be great if they were truly prepared to serve God properly. 

And as for you loving of OCD, you are only copying the GB once again. The GB have said that some who claim to be of the Anointed are actually mentally ill. Do you or your GB honestly think you have been given the right to JUDGE. I thought Jesus had paid the price and was given the authority to judge. 

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1 hour ago, Arauna said:

Mr Butler -  so loving - I do not need cuddling - definitely not from you  and I am not easily deceived as you are.  You have found yourself an eco-chamber here that is all!   People who encourage you in your folly!

That is why I left -  it has become an eco-chamber for apostates - not people who can reason objectively! 

Perhaps you left because you cannot 'reason objectively'. Is the saying steel sharpens steel or something like that.

I find this forum fabulous for helping me see different viewpoints. 

Of course I have my own views, just as you have. And yes i get a bit uptight as most people do in life.

For instance, and of course you will not be interested, but to put things into real life perspective. Our hot water boiler has just, this morning, decided to leak, over all the clean dry linen in the airing cupboard. So i had to leave this forum and do some practical work, to basically clean up the mess and sort out more washing. No i don't leave everything to my wife. So just another tiny pressure to add to other things. What I'm saying is, when folks come to this forum, they may have other problems on their minds. So you may get remarks that are straight and blunt.

But if you cannot stand the heat then get out of the kitchen. Don't use the excuse that the kitchen should not be so hot. 

And once again you make yourself look so silly. The echo chamber idea fits more with the JW Org, not those of us that have started thinking and investigating for ourselves.  JW's are taught to obey without question. 

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Mr Butler -  so loving ...     How loving did the Pharisees and others think Jesus was when Jesus cleansed the Temple ?

How loving did the Pharisees think Jesus was when Jesus called them hypocrites, and told them they were from their father the Devil ?

True criticism is not from hate, it is from a love of Almighty God and His son Jesus Christ. 

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Jesus had insight which you do not have..... unless you think you are especially gifted.

Jesus was loving to everyone except the Pharisees.  I see a lot of ignorance and arrogance here on this forum.  One cannot answer anyone that thinks they have all the answers and give themselves the right to put themselves on a pedestal - they suffer from the same disease as the Pharisees.

People here think they are especially intellectual.  Logic don't work in them.

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