Is it appropriate for minors to get baptized?

[Shiwiii]

Is it appropriate for minors to get baptized?

 

No

Jesus was around 30 years old when He was. Isn't Jesus our role model? Shouldn't we Imitate Jesus? 

[Evacuated]

On 5/13/2016 at 19:10, Ann O'Maly said:

So did you check them out? Food for thought, hey? 

I'm having trouble finding anything particularly sinister in these comments. I'm hearing a man saying that if youths felt they were mature enough to have a driving licence but weren't ready to consider dedication and baptism, then maybe their priorities needed adjustment.

However, to say this is promoting the encouraging of youths to get baptized in exchange for a driving licence??? That would be an own foot shot in my book and a recipe for spiritual disaster. Maybe someone would be idiotic enough to think such a strategy would work and save them the chore of having a Bible Study with their child, but I'm not hearing that suggestion here.

[Ann O'Maly]

28 minutes ago, Eoin Joyce said:

I'm hearing a man saying that if youths felt they were mature enough to have a driving licence but weren't ready to consider dedication and baptism, then maybe their priorities needed adjustment.

How are the two in any way equivalent? 

30 minutes ago, Eoin Joyce said:

... I'm not hearing that suggestion here.

AMIII threatened to hold off on granting one of his sons a drivers licence when he turned 16 when his son said he didn't feel ready for baptism. That was blackmail.

[Evacuated]

1 hour ago, Ann O'Maly said:

AMIII threatened to hold off on granting one of his sons a drivers licence when he turned 16 when his son said he didn't feel ready for baptism. That was blackmail.

Ask his son??

[Evacuated]

4 hours ago, Ann O'Maly said:

How are the two in any way equivalent?

A question for the son to ponder also.

[Evacuated]

11 hours ago, Ann O'Maly said:

How are the two in any way equivalent? 

Driving licences and dedication and baptism are not equivalent. The common factor is the required level of maturity to accept the responsibility attached. And perhaps that irresponsibility could have life-impacting consequences.

 

11 hours ago, Ann O'Maly said:

That was blackmail.

I'm finding it hard to make the connection here.

In the US, driving accidents are the leading cause of death among 16-19 yr. olds,  with 6 dying daily. 243,000+ ER involvements per year, demonstrate the risky nature of teenage driving. Inability to assess risk is a major factor in these incidents. With boys twice as likely to be counted in these numbers as girls, I can understand any concerned parent weighing their son's eager assertion of maturity against any evidence indicating the contrary. A mature attitude to dedication and baptism would be a good indicator of the minor's development, although to see it as a ticket to a driving licence would be as ludicrous as using a driving licence as a baptismal bribe.

If I can think that through as soon as hearing the comments in the talk, then I am sure any sane person in the audience could do the same. Don't you think this is all a bit 'mal y pense'?

[Ann O'Maly]

On 5/29/2016 at 7:37 AM, Eoin Joyce said:

I'm finding it hard to make the connection here.

I can see that. 

You agree that getting married has lesser gravity in the great universal scheme of things than baptism, right?

What if you overheard this conversation between a father and his mid-teen son?

"But dad, while I like the girl and we're friendly, I do not feel ready to make a lifelong commitment to her. I'm too young to get married."

"Oh yeah? Not ready? Well let's hold off on your driver's license, hey?"

"What? Dad? You're kidding, right? I'm 16. I'm ready to drive a car!"

"No, son. You're ready to handle a car but not ready for marriage, huh? You explain that to the girl's family." 

"What the hell, dad?"

Is the father being reasonable with his son?

Isn't the father using some form of coercion or blackmail to induce his son to get married?

If this isn't a form of coercion or blackmail, what is it?

[Evacuated]

WELL...I'm sure you have given this some prior thought but  I think we have an apples and oranges situation here in your comparison.

Whilst some elements may work, others do not at all so I am not prepared to do the mental gymnastic to force a fit. For example, whilst a marriage commitment has less gravity than dedication (I'll omit the over-significance attached to baptism), the marriage commitment carries infinitely more risk than dedication. (Don't ask me to explain that as I am sure you have considered that factor already).

Whilst it would be interesting to compare the risk level in 16 yr old marriages to 16 yr old driving, I would prefer (and be prepared) to consider a more suitable analogy.

[Ann O'Maly]

Eoin, dragging you back to the point here: if you overheard the kind of conversation between a father and son as I posted above, would you not conclude that the father was trying to coerce or blackmail his child into marriage? If not, why not?

[Menrov]

No...minors should never be baptized until they can and must make their own decisions. For this reason Jesus was in our view rather old to get baptizrd. His parents were no longer accountable.

In case of JWs it is of more concern because of the authority elders are given over baptised persons and the shunning policy (same for Mormons and Iglesia N Christ) 

[Evacuated]

On 6/1/2016 at 14:28, Ann O'Maly said:

 

Eoin, dragging you back to the point here:

 

Just noticed I never got back on your post.

I think coercion and blackmail are too extreme as terms for what is going on in your hypothetical scenario. But I do see a father using his authority unwisely, unfairly, and unkindly. Unfairly particularly, because the level of maturity indicated by the son's sensible attitude to the seriousness of the marriage commitment has no relevance to his qualifying for permission to obtain a driver's permit.

As for the scenario's validity to the discussion on a minor prioritising working toward dedication over seeking a driving permit or vice-versa, I see absolutely no relevance at all. As previously stated: 

On 5/30/2016 at 18:50, Eoin Joyce said:

 I think we have an apples and oranges situation here

 

[Ann O'Maly]

On 6/21/2016 at 1:56 PM, Eoin Joyce said:

As for the scenario's validity to the discussion on a minor prioritising working toward dedication over seeking a driving permit or vice-versa, I see absolutely no relevance at all.

That's because the discussion wasn't about a minor prioritizing working toward dedication over seeking a driving permit. The discussion was about a JW father withholding his child's driving permit to coerce him into getting baptized on the basis that, if he wasn't ready to handle a car, he wasn't ready to make a lifelong dedication/commitment to the Sovereign of the Universe and the Org that claims it exclusively represents Him.

I agree that Anthony Morris III and the father in my scenario are comparing apples and oranges when trying to equate the responsibility that comes with dedication and baptism (or marriage) to that of having a drivers permit ... which makes using that kind of coercive tactic with one's children all the more distasteful - my point all along.