Is it appropriate for minors to get baptized?

[Evacuated]

@Ann O'Maly Unfortunately you are digging into motive that cannot possibly be known from the information provided. You present an unproven and emotive claim as fact, and then draw conclusions based on that assumption. You also appear to be fuelling the fire of controversy with a statement about dedication/commitment to an Organisation

To  assert such an assessment of motive on the basis of a video that describes briefly an interaction between two persons unknown (to me) about an incident not witnessed (by me) is a step too far (for me). 

All I see (from the videos you cite) is a father exercising his parental right to withhold an maturity related privilege. I cannot accept your extrapolation of motive and strategy without actually speaking to the parties involved and assessing the event, the motives, the understanding, the outcomes etc,  What you are doing reminds me of Ahasuerus wrongly interpreting the intentions of Haman at Esther 7:8.

Obviously, bribing or coercing minors to dedicate themselves to Jehovah to obtain a drivers permit is unacceptable. It is also stupid, as it would render void that dedication anyway. On that basis alone, your interpretation of Anthony Morris's intention in relating this matter seems to me (on face value at least) highly implausible.

[Ann O'Maly]

OK, OK. Enough of our ping-pong 'Yes he does' / 'No he doesn't.' To me, AMIII's words and intent are as plain as day. You disagree. However, we can agree on this:

6 hours ago, Eoin Joyce said:

Obviously, bribing or coercing minors to dedicate themselves to Jehovah to obtain a drivers permit is unacceptable. It is also stupid, as it would render void that dedication anyway.

 

[Evacuated]

7 hours ago, Ann O'Maly said:

However, we can agree on this:

[Jack Ryan]

Escondido, California, USA - A Jehovah's WItness father looks down on his smiling daughter as he baptizes her.

Later she will potentially be disfellowshipped from the congregation and her entire life will be thrown into chaos because she supposedly made this choice of her own volition.

Ask yourself, Can a minor legally enter a contract?

All minors baptized and later disfellowshipped that have received damages may one day decide to form a class action lawsuit against the Jehovah's Witnesses after a court decides to "pierce the corporate veil" by allowing suits against the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania as the controlling corporation above many subsidiaries which is ultimately controlled by the Governing Body itself.

[Jack Ryan]

This little man here, he dedicated his life to Jehovah Saturday 22 October 2016 to 10 years of age.

[Ann O'Maly]

On 10/3/2016 at 0:15 AM, Jay Witness said:

All minors baptized and later disfellowshipped that have received damages may one day decide to form a class action lawsuit against the Jehovah's Witnesses

I don't know how feasible that would be legally and without encroaching on the 1st amendment. If somebody was baptized as a minor and disfellowshipped as an adult, couldn't it be argued that, as an adult, that person ratified their earlier contract by willingly submitting to congregation rules, consenting to have data held on them (e.g. report slips), accepting privileges, etc?

[Witness]

 

 

 

Considering baptism, if the organization truly is not viewed equal to God, why is one baptized into the organization?  This is where the problem arises not only with children, but with everyone who is baptized into it. 

 

Referring to the baptism of children, the Insight Vol 1 says,

It is true that Jesus said: “Stop hindering [the young children] from coming to me, for the kingdom of the heavens belongs to suchlike ones.” (Mt 19:13-15; Mr 10:13-16) But they were not baptized. Jesus blessed them, and there is nothing to indicate that his laying his hands upon them was a religious ceremony. He further showed that the reason ‘the kingdom of God belongs to such’ was not because they were baptized but because they were teachable and trusting. Christians are commanded to be “babes as to badness,” yet “full-grown in powers of understanding.”—Mt 18:4; Lu 18:16, 17; 1Co 14:20. 

 

Can anyone make judgment that a child has reached this point when each one of us should strive continually to reach and remain full-grown in powers of understanding? To be full-grown in powers of understanding takes diligent effort on the part of an adult.

“The second question asks the candidate, first of all, if he understands that his baptism serves to identify him as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. After undergoing immersion, he becomes an ordained minister who bears Jehovah’s name. This is both a great privilege and a serious responsibility. It also puts the one baptized in line for eternal salvation, provided he remains faithful to Jehovah.—Matthew 24:13.

Bearing God’s name is not literal, but through one’s actions in imitation of Christ’s loyalty and love toward God’s will in Truth, not through man’s doctrine.   The identity as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses is thought as bearing God’s name, when in reality one bears the name of an organization.   Would a child of 7,8 even up to 14 or so, understand what lies behind this statement, or the serious responsibility this dedication involves?

The second question also reminds the candidate of his responsibility to work with Jehovah’s spirit-directed organization..”  ‘Go and Make Disciples, Baptizing Them’ - The Watchtower—2006

It cannot be dismissed that the reason for changing the second baptism question asked on the day of baptism is to protect, not the individual, but the organization; thus, whether a child is baptized, matters little. The organization’s interests are paramount. 

“Do you understand that your dedication and baptism identify you as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses in association with God’s spirit-directed organization?”

What does an organization have to do with following Jesus’ command, which is to baptized in the names of those we are to worship?  Dedication – our vow - to God cannot be shared with anything. (Isa 40:25; Exod 20:4)  If a parent is encouraging a child toward baptism within the organization, they are teaching a message contrary to God’s will. Isa 2:22; Ps 146:3; Rev 13:8 https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isa+2%3A22%3B+Ps+146%3A3%3B+Rev+13%3A8++&version=NKJV

 If dedication and loyalty were not expected toward the organization, the baptism vows would never have received an adjustment from this:

Have you recognized yourself as a sinner and needing salvation from Jehovah God? And have you acknowledged that this salvation proceeds from him and through his ransomer, Christ Jesus?

On the basis of this faith in God and in his provision for redemption have you dedicated yourself unreservedly to Jehovah God, to do his will henceforth as that will is revealed to you through Christ Jesus and through God's Word as his holy spirit makes it plain? May 15, 1970 Watchtower, p. 309

But, they have been scaled down in a most corporate way to cover the basics – slam, dunk and you’re done.  On the other hand, the disfellowshipping procedure is quite involved.  After a seven day appeal period previous to one announced as disfellowshipped,

”The coordinator of the body of elders should check the announcement (disfellowship) to make sure that it conforms to the guidelines outlined by the organization.  An elder should read the announcement.  The wording should be as follows:  “(Name of person) is no longer one of Jehovah’s Witnesses”  

The judicial committee should promptly inform the branch office of the disfellowshipping using the appropriate forms. When making the report, read and carefully follow the instructions on the form.

  Upon conclusion of the case, the chairman should place only necessary notes and documents, a detailed summary of the case, and the S-77 forms in a sealed envelope for the congregation’s confidential file.  Elders on the committee should preserve nothing outside of this sealed envelope (including personal notes).  On the outside of the envelope should be written the wrongdoer’s name, the names of those who served on the judicial committee (with the chairman indicated), the actions take, and the date of the action.”  Page 101  Shepherding the Flock of God

How much more corporate, without compassion and sterile, can one get?

From an article entitled “An Aspect of the Legalism of Jehovah's Witnesses”:

"Note that the above legalese (please read from the link below) says that once a person joins the Witnesses, he has only two choices if he wants to leave: disfellowshipping and disassociation. These two choices are enforced by American law. However, even if the Watchtower lawyer has correctly stated matters, he has neglected the case of the child who gets baptized and submits to "ecclesiastical law." By law minors cannot enter into legally binding contracts. Therefore by law, people who got baptized when they were children have a third legally enforceable option when they leave: to simply quit, without disassociating and without submitting to a judicial committee, or "ecclesiastical tribunal." Of course, the Society will not tell people about this."  http://corior.blogspot.com/2006/02/aspect-of-legalism-of-jehovahs.html

An identity to any affiliation is a mental and emotional mark that one bears. The early apostles and believers of Christ bore only the identity required by God and in imitation of His Son, and for that, they were persecuted.  Deut 6:8; 1 Pet 2:21; Mark 8:35; Rom 6:5; Heb 13:13 https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deut+6%3A8%3B+1+Pet+2%3A21%3B+Mark+8%3A35%3B+Rom+6%3A5%3B+Heb+13%3A13+&version=NKJV

Any other spiritual identity one agrees to accept, is idolatry and a spiritual commerce, based on slavery.  Rom 6:16; Gal 1:10; Rev 13:16,8,17; Isa 55:1 https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rom+6%3A16%3B+Gal+1%3A10%3B+Rev+13%3A16%2C8%2C17%3B+Isa+55%3A1 &version=NKJV

No man is given authority to judge our hearts, but an earthly organization boasts that it can, under the illusion that it belongs to God.  Ps 139:23; Jer 17:10; Acts 1:24; Rom 8:27; Deut 8:2; 1 Chron 29:17; Micah 7:18; Ezek 3:21; 33:14-16; 2 Chron 7:14; Ezek 18:23; 33:19  https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ps+139%3A23%3B+Jer+17%3A10%3B+Acts+1%3A24%3B+Rom+8%3A27%3B+Deut+8%3A2%3B+1+Chron+29%3A17%3B+Micah+7%3A18%3B+Ezek+3%3A21%3B+33%3A14-16%3B+2+Chron+7%3A14%3B+Ezek+18%3A23%3B+33%3A19++&version=NKJV

 When one rejects this man given authority, and instead chooses to imitate Christ fully; they, too, are persecuted. Matt 5:11,12; Rev 13:15-17 https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matt+5%3A11%2C12%3B+Rev+13%3A15-17&version=NKJV

“God’s organization plays a vital role in our spiritual growth.  Like a mother who makes sure that her child is well-fed and cared for, “the faithful and discreet slave” provides an abundance of timely spiritual food for our spiritual advancement.” (w 06/4/1)

The king (FDS 1 Cor 4:8) is not saved by his great army (“The shepherds and dukes (or, “princes,” NEB) in this implausible army are the congregation elders.”)
    a warrior is not delivered by his great strength. (Zech 4:6)
¹⁷ The war horse (organization)is a false hope for salvation,
    and by its great might it cannot rescue.

¹⁸ Behold, the eye of the Lord is on those who fear him,
    on those who hope in his steadfast love,
¹⁹ that he may deliver their soul from death
    and keep them alive in famine.

²⁰ Our soul waits for the Lord;
    he is our help and our shield.
²¹ For our heart is glad in him,
    because we trust in his holy name.
²² Let your steadfast love, O Lord, be upon us,
    even as we hope in you. Ps 33:16-22

Baptism vows changing