RECLAIMED VOICES new letter to JW brothers and sisters.

[Arauna]

I just laugh at the ignorance of people on this forum - most countries do not care about child sexual abuse...  only in the west in first world countries do you find this and this is now being eroded by Sharia law.  So many of these kind of cases are no longer followed up.

Some victims do not want to report it to the police -  if they are not a minor then the elders cannot overrule the victim's request to remain silent.  Of course the elders watch out for the rest of the congregation in this case if the alleged perpetrator is still there.  But one must remember "alleged is not yet "found guilty".

How often have I not heard them say on stage that parents should accompany their children to the bathrooms - do they listen?  Not always.  Do parents vet their friends in the truth? Not always... 

 

 

 

[Arauna]

5 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

ggesting that here in the UK, and in USA, Australia, Canada, that it was actually legal to rape or sexually abuse young children

Yes - there were no proper laws to prosecute people back then.  It is the fault of congress for not having decent laws.   I was alive in the 50, 60s.   It was only in the 60s when people started to talk about sex with "flower power" and the sex revolution took place.  It took much longer for sexual abuse to be discussed in public.  Only after this laws started to appear in some first world countries but they were very weak laws to be able to get a conviction. 

[Arauna]

5 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Typical JW attitude, thinking too much of yourself. 

I saw that you just accuse and accuse the GB and your knowledge is very little.... so I usually do not argue with people  who think they know it all and have so little knowledge.  You also seem very immature and your reasoning does not have much logic going on.....  .... well.  I think Anna has been patient with you and kind.....   I would not be so nice...   

 

5 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

make you obey God's law, on Love and protection and care of young children, a

What you want is a proper witch hunt of JWs to go after a person in public and persecute him.....maybe get a newspaper article?   You do not sound reasonable at all.   We do our duty in the congregation and we do it in the reporting to the police  (if there are legal laws in place).  What else do you suggest we do? I recall Anna asking you this question and you did not answer it.

If there are no legal laws for reporting  the crime in place then police are not obliged to follow it up - logic conclusion heh?   Does this compute?  Even if there are laws in place it seems the police are too busy to do anything regarding the matter these days.

The person involved must then file a civil law suit.... maybe the incentive to get a lot of money will get them to report it.... 

Mr Butler - It is easy to take the moral high ground and try to prove you are so righteous and justified to  criticize the GB and elders....... but I do not think you have any experience in running such a large organization and you cannot even imagine it.... if you could you would have shown more reasonableness.

You may find yourself one day being accused of a crime you did not commit - then you will be grateful for people showing caution to not just condemn you without proper evidence.  There is two sides to every case.

[Anna]

1 hour ago, Arauna said:

What else do you suggest we do? I recall Anna asking you this question and you did not answer it. 

If I remember right, I think it was @Srecko Sostar who I asked.

[Srecko Sostar]

6 hours ago, Arauna said:

I did not read the comments above.

No problem!

6 hours ago, Arauna said:

they use the available information to twist the truth to look like the organization is full of pedophiles and condoners of it.

I never said how JW religion is full of pedophiles, and i don't think in that way about JW. So, please calm down emotions and mood about me or others who not talking this way, but you put how that it is.

6 hours ago, Arauna said:

Of all the organizations interviewed (almost 2000) - our organization was the only organization (of all the churches, youth organizations, sports organizations that work with children) which kept notes on these people because there were not laws in place to prosecute.  JWs kept notes on them so they could not go to another congregation and not be informed upon.

This is double sword statement. 

Few of interviewed elders in front ARC said how they not remember many things about cases or how they have not any notes or how they destroyed some of those notes. It would take much time for me to go again and find video for this, maybe me or someone else will do that, but i think my recall on this matter is ok.

On other side, if JW administration is so responsible, pedant and efficient in collecting this specific notes (with other sort of notes about members too) it is strange that NOT SINGLE ONE episode in JWBroadcasting or WT publications NOT made TRANSPARENT AND OPEN, SINCERE INSIGHT for JW and non JW readers and viewers about ARC, or any other multi millions $ fines made on WT and some other WT Legal Entities who was responsible for mishandling about issues. 

Also how is possible that this "an advanced system of tracking sinners" (JW members who repeatedly molesting JW children) is failed so much, (in Australia with 1006 molesters) DESPITE ELDERS NOTES and CIRCULATING of Top Confidential Information's inside "ONLY FOR ELDERS EYES" ARRANGEMENT? 

7 hours ago, Arauna said:

In 2003 a law was passed in United States which made prosecution of sex offenders easier.  Before that the child could be cross-examined in court by the defender's hostile representatives.

Some or major of JW Judicial Committee also done and perhaps doing same procedural difficulties for some victims or participants in sexual issues (crimes or fornication). Cross-examination and ways how to collect information about some sexual details. 

7 hours ago, Arauna said:

The purpose of the Australian inquiry was to address the gaps in the law and they were investigating the procedures various organizations were following to  find out where the gaps were so better legislation can be put in place.

 Not only that, but also to show how many Institutions (including religious one, as WTJWorg also) are not BRIGHT EXAMPLE for Imitate.  WTJWorg of Australia are not joined in National Redress Scheme. 

WT of Australia with US Headquarter obviously not thinking to make any Apology to Victims inside JW community, and is not willing to compensate any damage for those who suffered within the "spiritually safe congregations" and under guidance of some "responsible, wakeful" Overseers/Elders.     

[Arauna]

3 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

publications NOT made TRANSPARENT AND OPEN, SINCERE INSIGHT for JW and non JW readers and viewers about ARC,

The broadcasting is a public forum for 'spiritual strengthening' not for diverting to personal matters. People who hate us gave more than enough twisted publicity to the Australian commission and they always left out the fact that we were the only organization to keep notes when there were no proper laws in place.  In fact, ALL the media usually do not give any information on laws - they just act as if these laws were always in place.  This is the weak standard of reporting these days.

For our organization to defend the lies will just bring more condemnation because they will say we are defending child abuse.... or people can twist it so it looks like this. 

With hateful unreasonableness- one cannot win a satanic battle - whatever you do... the world system condemned Jesus, Paul. Stephen and many more and we know that Jehovah found them righteous in a very unjust world.

14 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

n front ARC said how they not remember many things about cases or how they have not any notes or how they destroyed so

How long ago was this?  I do not know of any law which tells the elders or any spiritual organization to keep the notes for 50 - 70 years?   Our organization was keeping notes when no other organization was keeping notes....  so if a person leaves the organization or stops coming to meetings would it be fitting to keep the notes? .... when there is no organization keeping notes.  You expect such high standards of elders who are not 'police' with archives but merely spiritual shepherds. They are not supposed to persecute people they "think" are not good people and have not been 'convicted.'

America is one of few countries which has an offenders list when peoples names are publicly on a list.   So, if you did a stupid thing as a teenager you will be on this list forever until you die and your life is ruined.  Does this sound like justice? 

Even if these people (offenders) want to change they cannot because they have to live with other offenders  because they struggle to find a home which is far from children etc.  It is like living with leprosy....They have to live far from the city  and these people are persecuted by society.  There are many individuals who are hateful and do not leave them alone to live their lives..... they persecute them and interfere in their lives so they cannot find a job or anything else....  would you like to be treated like this?  What is the difference between these people and ISIS who feel they have the right to take the wrath of god into their own hands...?

If you guys are so smart on justice and victims I think you are persecuting the wrong religious organization and holding this organization to an incredibly unrealistic high standard for this wicked world.  I can give you the names of other religions where child sex and marriage is allowed..... and it is also allowed by the Law in western countries -  for these people are now allowed by law to have their own religious leaders to judge all their cases by themselves.  Ever heard of no-go zones and Sharia law?... where police do not go into the town?

If you are really so worried about victims - then become a justice warrior and stand outside these other organizations and towns with a banner.  I dare you and I guarantee you - I actually put a bet on it - that YOU would be taken into custody by the police....  Recently a woman who exposed a sex ring got 6 years prison in UK for islamophobia.   

If you think justice is in the world system forget about it - but you just love to bash Jehovah's organization because you know we are decent and we do not condone any  porneia - we do have high standards but we are fallible people - not God.  These very people who bash us for not doing enough are usually also the ones who condemn us when we do not speak to these people once they have been put outside of the organization.   

What I am demonstrating here is that we are always held at a much higher standard than any other human organization and people do not take into account that any person can drift away from Jehovah and start to fall back to old habits - like alcoholics and child offenders.  I do not in any way defend this behavior - but you obviously think you know more than God because you feel that the offender should not be given any chances at all and should be persecuted for life. 

I think our rules for handling this matter is the best  we can come up with to bring mercy and justice into the equation. That is - if one  understands both sides and one understands the nature of the secrecy of the crime.

I am not emotional about this at all.  I just get impatient with people who CONTINUALLY accuse and accuse our organization without understanding all the issues involved. I can accuse you of getting emotional and bias against our organization. Watching a few videos on tape during the a government commission does not make one an expert on this matter...... on needs to think all issues through properly.

Unfortunately you get justice warriors who think they have more righteousness than everybody else to judge the organization and to judge others on what they do when they themselves have no experience of running any organization and making decisions on very difficult matters.  

26 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Cross-examination and ways how to collect information about some sexual details. 

Yes - we have cross-examined people to try to get to the truth - but we did this in private - not with the perpetrator sitting in front of the child victim......  but the law in USA used to allow this.

These methods have proved to be a second trauma for the child involved in the legal court system.   Legally they only acknowledged this in 2003 law when they did not allow cross-examination of children any more....  because they could not get convictions 

40 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

also to show how many Institutions (including religious one, as WTJWorg also) are not BRIGHT EXAMPLE for Imitate.  

No -  the Australian commission was not about 'shaming' organizations. Yes - people used it as a nasty tool to only shame Jehovah's organization because they hold us to incredibly higher standards than anyone else.  BUT - if there are no laws in place then the elders can report it until they are blue in the face and NOTHING will happen in the judicial system.  Police cannot act on their feelings - they need the proper laws to refer to, to be able to build a case.  This commission was to improve the laws that are in place and to cover the loopholes.

[Srecko Sostar]

9 minutes ago, Arauna said:

The broadcasting is a public forum for 'spiritual strengthening' not for diverting to personal matters

Sorry, Institutional problem of pedophilia inside JW religion is not so called "personal matters". Because, this child molestation "disease" is not sporadic event in 1 or 2 case. Institution, in this case WT, made it to be general, worldwide matter/problem for all JW comunity and secular society in which this JW community living and working as citizens and as active preachers who invite people to join JW organization. 

Is it "polite" to invite people to join organization with promises how this religion offer them safe and peaceful environment and justice in living inside The Church aka Congregation, but in the same time not giving a warning what is going on.

33 minutes ago, Arauna said:

America is one of few countries which has an offenders list when peoples names are publicly on a list.   So, if you did a stupid thing as a teenager you will be on this list forever until you die and your life is ruined.  Does this sound like justice? 

Stupid things? What "stupid things" made by teenagers have with child molestation we talking about here?

Some "stupid things" can be called stupid, but also can made young people going to wrong way whole life. 

Some kids just get drunken, or having intimate adventure, some other torturing animals and other kids. 

What of this and many more deeds, we should or have to call as "just stupid things"? 

But again, child molestation is not "stupid things", so your commenting this way is out of subject and totally weird.    

 

[JOHN BUTLER]

@Arauna  I can tell you are on autopilot, automatically defending the GB and its JW Org. So there is no point in me making a sensible reply. You do sound like a robot though, spewing out all the GB dribble like a computer gone wrong. 

Quite entertaining for a Sunday morning. 

 

 

[Arauna]

10 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

nstitutional problem of pedophilia

Accusations, accusations of being institutionalized problem.... make up your mind. In previous response you said you are not accusing all of us of being child molesters and condoning this....  And broadcasting will just give people like you more ammunition to dissect and accuse.  As I said there - Jesus was being perfect and righteous and could not stand up to the scrutiny of the unrighteous.  If you want to stone someone - you will find a stone.

JWs do NOT condone child sex abuse and when we have proof they are put outside of the congregation.... and we used to keep records before any other organization did so and there was no legislation requesting this.  

For most part we have a peaceful and clean organization.  But you are unrealistic regarding this world.  I laugh at your naivety regarding this world.  You are definitely very uninformed about what is going on.  We are squeaky clean compared to the world.  1002 cases in 70 years?   One case is too much ..... but most of these were not convicted cases and they were followed up and notes kept....  I am impressed that JWs did this when other organizations did not even 'bother' to do so.  

21 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Some "stupid things" can be called stupid, but also can made young people going to wrong way whole life. 

So you think a young boy of 12 who touched a girl inappropriately should be called a child molester for the rest of his life?  Most people will think this young boy raped or had sex with minor girl. 

A lot of young boys at 17 years have consensual  sex with girl of 15 years.  The police often wait until they are 18 and then charge them as adult to have sex with minor.....  You think this is OK justice?.....   I am exposing your ignorance regarding this matter. We are not talking about drinking or drunken driving - we are talking here in this subject about having sex with minors.

It is easy to judge the application of law and rules.... until you are in the judgment seat.  This is why Jehovah cautions us not to judge others because then you are judging law.....  few people are really wise enough with understanding of both sides to make a very sound and righteous judgment.

 

I just looked this up on internet very quickly for james 4:11-12 (one of my favorite scriptures)  This interpretation is not from a JW website but their understanding is  similar to ours:  james 4: 11-12

Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge (Jam 4:11) (KJV)

I don't get James' logic here. How is an act of judging a brother an act of judging the law?

Good question. One possibility is that you are complaining that the law has not properly judged and 'punished' this brother. Think of how the elder brother begrudged his father's forgiveness of the prodigal when he returned. But I suspect we are missing something about Jewish legal interpretation here. The Law (Torah) is holy, the word of God, and by definition cannot be judged. Judging means slandering the neighbor, something the Law forbids you to do (Lev. 19), so by doing that you are "judging the law," i.e. putting yourself above the law, or as we would say "taking the law into your own hands."

Be careful that you do not do this.... that is if you really care about your relationship with Jehovah. 

[Kosonen]

Why does the Bible say that the judgement begins with the house of God? Or that the symbolic levites in Malachi have to be cleaned or that there has to arrive a time of persecution from the King of the North to cause a cleansing and whitening?

Obviously that is because of serious things that are unrighteous that they are involved in. 

1Peter 4:17 For it is the appointed time for the judgment to start with the house of God.+ Now if it starts first with us,+ what will the outcome be for those who are not obedient to the good news of God?

Malachi 3:2  “But who will endure the day of his coming, and who will be able to stand when he appears? For he will be like the fire of a refiner and like the lye*+ of laundrymen. 3  And he will sit as a refiner and cleanser of silver+ and will cleanse the sons of Leʹvi; and he will clarify* them like gold and like silver, and they will certainly become to Jehovah people presenting a gift offering in righteousness. 

Daniel 11: 33  And those having insight+ among the people will impart understanding to the many. And they will be made to stumble by sword and by flame, by captivity and by plundering, for some days. 34  But when they are made to stumble, they will be given a little help; and many will join with them by means of smooth speech.* 35  And some of those having insight will be made to stumble, in order to do a refining work because of them and to do a cleansing and a whitening+until the time of the end; because it is yet for the time appointed.

[Arauna]

9 minutes ago, Kosonen said:

ut who will endure the day of his coming, and who will be able to stand when he appears?

Refers to individual persons

9 minutes ago, Kosonen said:

they will certainly become to Jehovah people presenting a gift offering in righteousness. 

Jehovah's people as a nation will  not be annihilated because they are not unrighteous as a collective..... individuals soil the spiritual paradise. The final attack at Armageddon will be a direct attack on the anointed for sure..... 

10 minutes ago, Kosonen said:

And some of those having insight will be made to stumble, in order to do a refining work because of them and to do a cleansing and a whitening+until the time of the end

There has been a cleaning of our teachings and ongoing progress of our procedures... and hardship has been like lye to wash us clean. We are imperfect people  just like israel was a very imperfect nation. Nevertheless Jehovah used Israel for his purpose.... and his purpose now is the preaching work world-wide and to sound the warning and to get us all in a condition where we can live through Armageddon.

They are fulfilling this commission and have stuck to this no matter what happened - through good and bad times.

[JOHN BUTLER]

@Arauna Quote "Accusations, accusations of being institutionalized problem." Well it seems to be quite widely spread within the JW Org doesn't it ? Or as I've said to others, do you not believe any of the victims evidence ? 

Quote " all I see is a lot of whiners about sex abuse and they only have hearsay as proof " 

Um, that kind of proves you do not believe any of the victims I suppose. 

As a victim of child abuse myself, I have empathy for others. 

Quote "We do our duty in the congregation "  what a large generalisation that is. 

Many of the Child Abuse cases are against ELDERS. Elders that are supposed to be protecting the congregation.

And, many of the cases are dismissed as lies. The two witness rule that you don't seem to believe happens. 

So, it could quite easily be that, if for example here in the UK an inquiry found evidence of 500 cases of Child Abuse allegations, there  could have been another 500 that were dismissed by Elders as lies, and therefore not recorded. 

What a wonderful ploy it would be to show only half the figures. Wow, look the JW Org recorded Child Abuse accusations, but how much evidence did they destroy to only show what they wanted to show ? 

There was a video actually put up on this forum which shows that instruction was given to destroy evidence. but of course you will not believe that either, because you are so blind. 

To be slightly balanced. A lot of the scriptural teachings are great. Not perfect I suppose but good. And I would say that being 'within' the Org in my wild youth, may have helped me to have more moral standards than i otherwise might have had. 

But i do realise i was stupid enough back then to just accept all I was taught. My older brother was a JW and he did a lot to support me whilst I was going through a really bad time. So i thought if he believes it then it must be true. Crazy notion I realise now. 

Having come out of a very wicked situation back then, and having found the congregation so pleasant and helpful, i was fooled into a false sense of security.  Knowing what i know now, I can see the reality.

That is balance. I do know the wicked world, I do know the JW org. I have been in at least three congregations in Southern England, having moved around a bit.  I can compare situations. I'm not as naive as you pretend I am. 

You on the other hand appear blind to the reality of what your JW Org is really like. 

i'm not saying it's not the Organisation that God will use, but I'm saying God has to clean it out thoroughly now. 

And God may by using humans to help him just as He as done in the past.