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JOHN BUTLER

RECLAIMED VOICES new letter to JW brothers and sisters.

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JOHN BUTLER -
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 Quote @Anna  "....you just want the congregation to be informed to protect the children in that congregation. "

I don't think it is possible to instruct the Elders that you want the congregation to be informed.... As far as I am aware the Elders DO NOT INFORM the congregation that there is a Pedophile within it. They certainly would not name the Pedophile. 

And it seems you are advising the idea of hiding a Pedophile within the JW Org, which is one of the things I've been saying from square one.  By not informing the police it would be hiding that Pedophile in that congregation. It would also be protecting a criminal. 

Quite strange really as this is what you are accusing me of, failing in my duty to report it.  But in this 'hypothetical situation' he would have first hand evidence, therefore be more entitled to report it, and more morally duty bound to do so. 

But also, are you saying that the Elders are not bound by scripture / service to God, to report it to the police, even if there is no 'law' of the land to do so ? Are you suggesting that those men (Elders) who, you would say, are chosen by God or Jesus Christ, through Holy Spirit,  yet are not bound to care for the safety of people inside and outside the JW Org ? Is there not obligation for such ones to care for widows and orphans, and little children within and outside the Org if it is possible for them to do so. 

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37 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

 

 

“Within the congregation, ours is a spiritual protection...we are talking about physical protection, that is up to the secular authorities to provide”

Well yes! Do you hear anyone arguing that point? No, because it is true! You yourself have said the Elders are not the police. So now you want them to act like the police?

 

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8 minutes ago, Anna said:

 

Let’s put a few things into perspective:

1) A survivor of a sexual attack (JW or Non JW) is NEVER obligated to report the assault to the Police. Never.

2). A JW survivor of a sexual attack (if perpetrator is JW) is scripturally obligated to report this to the Elders in the same way that someone finding out about adultery is scripturally obligated to tell the elders so the wicked man can be removed:  1 Corinthians 5:9-12. And vs 5 “you must hand such a man over to Satan and (Deutoronomy 17:7) “you must remove what is bad from your midst”. Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that if wrongdoing in a congregation was covered up, then Jehovah would remove his spirit from that congregation. A congregation must be kept morally clean.

3) If the law of the land does not obligate second parties to inform the Police, then the reporting can be left to the first party.

4) If the law of the land obligates second parties (or anyone who learns of merely an allegation) to report to the police, then they will and must report to the police. (John Butler!)

With this information, please use your intelligence to figure out the various scenarios possible in the case of child sexual molestation.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It is so funny to see you hide behind the law of the land when it suits you. 

I'll ask you again, are the ELDERS that JW's presume are in their place chosen by God's Holy Spirit through Jesus Christ, not obligated SPIRITUALLY to protect those inside and outside the JW org ? 

I'm sure there must be scriptures to tell us that Elders are obligated in their service to GOD, to hand such ones over to the superior authorities. 

And for you to compare JW to non JW is quite strange. JW's are 'supposed' to be serving God not men. 

Therefore their obligation is totally different and instructions come from God's word not men's. 

As far as I am aware the law here in the UK does not compel me to report it. As I've mentioned before the new laws I've read about seem to be concerning people in 'professional' positions, such as teachers and social workers. 

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30 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Elders DO NOT INFORM the congregation that there is a Pedophile within it. They certainly would not name the Pedophile. 

11. If it is determined that one guilty of child sexual abuse is repentant and will remain in the
congregation, restrictions are imposed on the individual’s congregation activities. The individual will
be specifically admonished by the elders not to be alone in the company of children, not to cultivate
friendships with children, or display any affection for children. In addition, elders will inform parents
of minors within the congregation of the need to monitor their children’s interaction with the individual

30 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

And it seems you are advising the idea of hiding a Pedophile within the JW Org, 

Yes John, I want all those little children in your congregation to be molested

30 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

By not informing the police it would be hiding that Pedophile in that congregation. It would also be protecting a criminal. 

Quite strange really as this is what you are accusing me of, failing in my duty to report it.  But in this 'hypothetical situation' he would have first hand evidence, therefore be more entitled to report it, and more morally duty bound to do so. 

Keep making excuses. Heck John, give me one of your elders emails and I will tell them myself!

 

30 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

But also, are you saying that the Elders are not bound by scripture / service to God, to report it to the police, even if there is no 'law' of the land to do so ?

Correct, they are not bound by scripture if there is no law to report to the police. They are only bound by scripture to deal with it in the congregation. It is not in their jurisdiction to go beyond what the survivor/victim wants. If the survivor/victim does not want it reported, and it is not the law for them to do so, then the elders have no obligation to report scripturally or secularly. HOWEVER if the elders discern that other children, or the victim is still in danger, then the elders will take it upon themselves to report to the police. But this is left to their discretion and their own conscience. In other instances they may actually be advised by the branch to report even if there is no legal duty to do so.

5. When elders learn of an accusation of child abuse, they immediately consult with the branch
office of Jehovah’s Witnesses to ensure compliance with child abuse reporting laws. (Romans 13:1)
Even if the elders have no legal duty to report an accusation to the authorities, the branch office of Jehovah’s
Witnesses will instruct the elders to report the matter if a minor is still in danger of abuse or
there is some other valid reason
. Elders also ensure that the victim’s parents are informed of an accusation
of child abuse. If the alleged abuser is one of the victim’s parents, the elders will inform the
other parent.

30 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

  yet are not bound to care for the safety of people inside and outside the JW Org ? Is there not obligation for such ones to care for widows and orphans, and little children within and outside the Org if it is possible for them to do so. 

Yes, of course, it is the elders obligation. But there is only so much they can reasonably do, as you say "if it is possible for them to do so".

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29 minutes ago, Anna said:

With this information, please use your intelligence to figure out the various scenarios possible in the case of child sexual molestation.

If conversation about this issue can make frustration of sort inside this circle of us who talking from distance to each other, imagine what heavy and hard and painful it is for those who experienced this things and must be in face to face situation ! 

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59 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Did WT made change about need for TWO witnesses?

This is irrelevant. You are making the mistake of mixing two separate things together. You do not need two witnesses to make a report to the police. This is only for congregational action.

59 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Did WT allow that sisters/women be present in investigation process as support for male and especially female minors victims and other victims  no matter of ages? 

9. Elders never require victims of child abuse to present their accusation in the presence of the
alleged abuser. However, victims who are now adults may do so, if they wish. In addition, victims can
be accompanied by a confidant of either gender for moral support when presenting their accusation to
the elders
. If a victim prefers, the accusation can be submitted in the form of a written statement

59 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Did WT allow that sister/women be involved in Judicial process that involve sex crimes and domestic violence inside and outside family environment when female victims are involved

No, and they never will because it is not scriptural.

59 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Did WT open secret files and fully cooperate with police and Courts?

Yes, WT always hands over any necessary confidential documentation pertaining to a case. WT will not hand over confidential documentation that has nothing to do with a specific case. The supreme court agreed with WT on that. (Any $4,000 fines per day were reversed and removed).

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28 minutes ago, Anna said:

“Within the congregation, ours is a spiritual protection...we are talking about physical protection, that is up to the secular authorities to provide”

Well yes! Do you hear anyone arguing that point? No, because it is true! You yourself have said the Elders are not the police. So now you want them to act like the police?

Defending the weaker from stronger in any form, spiritual or physical is obligation to all, inside or outside the JW  community. 

Bible is full of examples where crude force is allowed to protect other person !!!!!!!!!!!  ... to safe animals too. 

This short part in video is example how sometimes people on position and their lawyers want to avoid the truth and responsibility. ARC testimonies repeated this issue and showed how Australian elder have no interest to help children outside his congregation if pedophile is in their midst. Shameful. Anna, please do stop to protect those who are not protecting the weakest in society (JW society or outside)!  

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Romans13

1 Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, 4 for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing. 7 Pay to all what is owed to them: taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed.

 

How come this does not come into the minds of jws when talking about CSA and the authorities? 

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23 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

If conversation about this issue can make frustration of sort inside this circle of us who talking from distance to each other, imagine what heavy and hard and painful it is for those who experienced this things and must be in face to face situation ! 

Yes. This goes for both, the survivor/victim and those who are asked to handle the situation.

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