Open Club, Private Club, JW club

[TrueTomHarley]

50 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

I even got into trouble on one of my own FB pages for saying that homosexuality is wrong in God's eyes. 

You’d better get on board with that. Fewer and fewer hold the line on homosexuality. The ones that do all have certain tools of discipline that you cry about.

Embrace what you have chosen. And don’t stop there. You now have 50+ genders to choose from! Most of your fellow malcontents here are cool with it, or at least they are cool with homosexuality, and they will be in time with the 50 genders, having spurned an anchor.

‘In Defense of Shunning’ is a chapter of the book. There is a place for disfellowshipping, as a last ditch method of discipline when all else has failed: 

https://www.smashwords.com/books/view/917311

 

[JOHN BUTLER]

1 minute ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Ahh...brothers, isn’t it nice and peaceful now that the loudmouth @JOHN BUTLER is not around.  Boy, he sure could...YIKES!! I’ve posted in the wrong club! Abort, Librarian (you old hen) abort! Take this down!

Tom I know you meant to post it here. You are a funny man. 

But of course some of us will be spoken about in your 'posh' private club. So be it. It seems you need to regroup to think up moe rubbish to hide the faults of your GB and you JW Org.  Cowards, but there you are. 

God will, when He is ready, sort out the Org and the GB. Just as He sorted out the Pharisees. So it's not really a problem for me.

Finding real truth is more important to me that worrying myself about people that bury their heads in the Org. 

[JW Insider]

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

The shunning problem, the blood issue / blood fractions, the misuse of scripture, the changing of meaning of many scriptures. The denial that Elders are a Clergy Class. The 'Clergy privilege'  excuse for hiding pedophiles within the Org.  There are lots of things that are wrong with the GB and it's JW Org.  Accusing two adults of fornication when NO witnesses are available. Allowing 3 year olds to put in Report slips as a means to make up the drop in numbers of JW's in the Org. Just a few there to start with.

For what it's worth, I noticed that you did bring up several other issues besides child abuse. Child sexual abuse (CSA) seemed to be the issue that remains most unresolved for you, and it spilled over into discussions of elders, GB, the congregation fear of elders, two-witness rule inconsistency, clergy privilege, etc. To be fair these other topics were often already related to the CSA issue.

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

And I still believe in Armageddon but think it will be a long while yet. I even think it is possible for God to cleanse the JW Org and use it.

Jehovah can use any of us, and any government, ruler or organization to accomplish his will. He can use our mistakes to accomplish his will, and he can use our feeble and foibled attempts to minister to him, too, of course. I think Jehovah continues to cleanse "JW Org" every time we show humility as an organization and show ourselves malleable to his will. (Like the potter's vessel illustration from @Bible Speaks you commented on.) You made a comment under that topic to the effect that Jehovah does not "mold" us to his will through congregation elders. This made no sense to me, because the utilization of congregation elders is very much a part of Jehovah's will as we can see in the Biblical direction given to congregations. Of course, if there are specific things elders do, you could address those things, but the generalization is not scriptural.

On the issue of Armageddon, there is a range of belief among Witnesses, so I assume you mean the standard idea that Jehovah destroys all the wicked, especially the wicked organizations, and only Jehovah's people survive. That range of belief might include questions about who really get counted as "wicked," who really get counted as Jehovah's people, or whether a large number of JWs actually do not survive, too. What happens with children and those who remain innocent by lack of hearing, or inability to comprehend? What happens with those who would gladly have joined us, but who were stumbled at haughty elders, or false prophecies, or issues of child abuse that seemed to them to be the fault of an organization, rather than just the perpetrators?

Also on the issue of Armageddon, you know that while it might not be dangerous to think that it might be a long way off, it is dangerous to live our lives according to the idea that it might be a long way off. The point is to keep it close in mind because it could come at any time, without further warning. We are warned that it will arrive, but we have absolutely no warning as to the times and seasons. This makes me wonder about what several members have done on this forum by speculating about what things are "obviously" going to happen in the near future that will prove this or that scripture to have been accomplished. I think this is also a mistake, because even if we think a certain action on the part of a government, a person, the UN, or anything else must happen first to fulfill some Bible prophecy before the end, then I think we have failed to understand that Armageddon can actually arrive 5 minutes after you fall asleep tonight. And it must be just as wrong to speculate that it must happen before the deaths of the entire second group of anointed who overlapped with an earlier group of anointed who would later admit that they misunderstood what they saw happening in 1914. This is just as un-Biblical and therefore un-Christian because it claims we know something about the times and seasons with respect to the time of the end.

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

So, ok sometimes I rant, but it is out of pure frustration, because so many JW's are blind to the faults of the Org.

An organization is not a person with motives you can judge. Yes, many JWs are blind to the faults of the Organization. But you should know members of the "Private" club for JWs as opposed to the "Public" club for JWs (now called "Open") is just as apt to discuss faults of the Organization as it is in the Open Club. As TTH pointed out, it has actually become easier to discuss these criticisms without people changing the subject at will, or asking people to defend their choices on some barely related topic.

[JOHN BUTLER]

@TrueTomHarley I quote you "Most of your fellow malcontents.. " 

It is you that is part of an organisation not me. I do not have fellow anything. I stand alone. 

You seem to have to link me with others. Is it a fear you have ? Are you afraid to deal with a man that can actually stand on his own ?

It seems you have to take comfort in thinking that i am part of a movement, a clan, or revolution or something. Sorry to disappoint you but I'm not part of anything, I am just me.  I have my own thoughts and do my own deeds. 

The Elders seem to act the same way as you are acting. Demanding that everyone that leaves the Org is shunned. Pretending that everyone that leaves the JW Org has forsaken God. Lumping them all together, just as you seem to be doing.

Homosexuality is wrong, fornication is wrong,  smoking is wrong, drinking too much alcohol is wrong, telling lies is wrong, physical violence is wrong, child abuse of any sort is wrong, stealing is wrong, and so much more. 

I've left the JW Org Tom, I haven't left God or Jesus Christ. Bible principles still stand true in my life. 

[JOHN BUTLER]

@JW Insider Quote "To be fair these other topics were often already related to the CSA issue." 

That is the whole point. All the topics are interwoven.  TTH seems to want all the topics separated but it's not possible. 

As the GB has made its own rules on most things then they all seem to interrelate. 

But even biblical issues interrelate in a similar way. When you talk about Love, it involves many facets. 

As for Armageddon, well I'm 69 now, 70 this year, and I've started writing a sort of life history. I hope I will not be alive when Armageddon arrives, in fact to outlive this year would be a shame. My feeling is that God gave us 70 years and that mine is up this coming October. Time will tell. 

But as you were saying about who will survive. At this moment in time I do not believe that being a JW makes any difference at all. And if a person is not a JW because that person sees genuine faults in the JW Org, then i would think that the 'Judge' would take that into consideration. IF however the JW Org was fully cleansed and could be seen as being used by God, then maybe a person should be inside that Org. Along those lines, is one reason that i think Armageddon is a long way off. Because God has to either clean out the JW Org fully, or, God has to build a new org. 

[JOHN BUTLER]

23 minutes ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

I wonder. I believe they eliminate AllenSmith34. Why not this one? or does this mean anyone can apply for work, lol!

 

Oh dear Kid, are you so frightened of me ?  You want me permanently removed ?  That is so funny and i don't even hate you for it. 

Go find your blanket Kid. Go lay down.  Jesus was 'eliminated' (or so they thought), for speaking the truth. 

[JW Insider]

18 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Along those lines, is one reason that i think Armageddon is a long way off. Because God has to either clean out the JW Org fully, or, God has to build a new org.

That's the same kind of mistake I was referring to above. We can't base our beliefs about the timing of Armageddon on anything we think might have to happen first here on earth. Jesus wove the first century parousia on Jerusalem right into the parousia on the entire earth using the word immediately to tie the two together.

• (Matthew 24:29-31) 29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity.

It was in Peter that we have the explanation that "immediately" could easily be 1,000 years or more, because:

• (2 Peter 3:4-9) . . .“Where is this promised presence of his? . . .  8 However, do not let this escape your notice, beloved ones, that one day is with Jehovah as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day. 9 Jehovah is not slow concerning his promise. . .

 

[JOHN BUTLER]

2 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

That's the same kind of mistake I was referring to above. We can't base our beliefs about the timing of Armageddon on anything we think might have to happen first here on earth. Jesus wove the first century parousia on Jerusalem right into the parousia on the entire earth using the word immediately to tie the two together.

• (Matthew 24:29-31) 29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity.

I'll sort of agree to differ. One of the questions is, does a person have to be inside the JW org to survive Armageddon ?

My point is that i cannot believe that God would expect a person to deliberately be inside an unclean organisation. 

So if God wanted people to be inside of JW Org to survive, the in my opinion God would make sure that people could plainly see that it was God's organisation. So if God does not make it clear, then once again in my opinion, it would not matter if a person was outside of that Org.  

I tend to think that God lets people know what He is doing and when. So I also tend to think that the Spiritual Jews will be clearly seen long before Armageddon occurs.  And i don't think it is those 8 men in America.................. 

 

[JW Insider]

20 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

I tend to think that God lets people know what He is doing and when. So I also tend to think that the Spiritual Jews will be clearly seen long before Armageddon occurs.

In the past, God let people know what he is doing and when. Jesus said that this time would be different. He said we would be warned about WHAT he was doing, but not WHEN.

*** w03 1/1 p. 18 par. 2 “Keep on the Watch”! ***

• On this account you too prove yourselves ready, because at an hour that you do not think to be it, the Son of man is coming.” (Matthew 24:42-44) A thief does not announce in advance when he is coming.

20 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

One of the questions is, does a person have to be inside the JW org to survive Armageddon ? 

One person cannot produce a teaching that gets advertised to the entire world. Even if the rocks had to cry out, it would not have been just one rock. An organization provides the efficiency to get a message out in such a way that it is generally appealing, or understood. The members of the organization are willing to explain it if it is not understood. We all stand on our own in the end. The organization is a tool or means to declare that message in an efficient and consistent manner, to help people understand it and therefore accept or reject it.

• (Romans 10:14-18) 14 However, how will they call on him if they have not put faith in him? How, in turn, will they put faith in him about whom they have not heard? How, in turn, will they hear without someone to preach? 15 How, in turn, will they preach unless they have been sent out? Just as it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who declare good news of good things!” . . .  Why, in fact, “into all the earth their sound went out, and to the ends of the inhabited earth their message.”

I think Paul speaks in general terms here that the message has gone out through God's actions toward Israel, and God's obvious backing of the early Christians, so that Gamaliel would say:

• (Acts 5:38, 39) . . .For if this scheme or this work is from men, it will be overthrown; 39 but if it is from God, you will not be able to overthrow them. Otherwise, you may even be found fighters against God himself.”

Like you, and like Brother Jackson of the GB, I would also not be so presumptuous as to claim that God is using only one group of 8 men as his mouthpiece or channel. But you'll notice that the important thing is not the so-called "inspiration" or "perfection" of those who preach. It's the message.

What would those rocks be saying if they were needed to cry out, instead of Christians?

 

 

[JOHN BUTLER]

2 minutes ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

of you! 😂 they remove someone without it being the same across the board. It seems the fear is found elsewhere.  

But it was your suggestion Kid. You want me removed. Why ? 

 

[JOHN BUTLER]

@JW Insider I think you put your faith in the Gb and it's Org, not in God.   And when the message from that org keeps changing to suit the GB then how can anyone put faith in it ? 

When the legal dept can be seen as telling lies in courtrooms, the elders can be seen acting as policemen and just obeying the GB, and the congregations being frightened not of God but of the Gb and the Elders, then how can anyone even trust such an organisation ? 

[JW Insider]

1 hour ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

I believe they eliminate AllenSmith34.

I really miss AllenSmith34. For reasons I've explained before, there should be no such thing as "permanent" disfellowshipping on a forum such as this one. The rebuke of the majority should be sufficient.

I miss the comments that he often put a lot of thought into, and that honestly revealed what he was thinking. One thing I don't miss about him was his constant habit of taking serious posts and tacking a "HaHa" emoticon on them. It seemed like a lazy person's mischievous way of showing derision and scorn, and trying to stir up contention instead of taking time to explain his view in a mature manner. Many days AllenSmith would produce more "HaHa" responses than actual posts.

• (Proverbs 22:10) . . .Drive away the scornful man, And contention will disappear; Disputes and insults will cease.

Fortunately, we don't have as much of that any more. Oh...wait, sorry...what's this: