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JOHN BUTLER

Apostles, Judas, GB, Raymond, Satan, Holy Spirit

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1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

(If experiencies are to be believed). 

If you are looking for reasons not to believe these experiences, it's always easy to find such stories that are told in ways that make them unbelievable. I know there are several Mormon missionary stories that use the idea of two angels protecting someone on his left and right, which also matches a Mormon scripture. A story of 26 angels guarding someone (non-Mormon) was treated by snopes.com, a would-be fact checking site for all kinds of email stories and Internet rumors.

    Hello guest!

“Potential victim’s attacker is scared off by guardian angels” is a common glurge theme. (Another widely-circulated tale about a girl who barely avoids becoming the victim of a

    Hello guest!
also draws upon this theme)

In fact, that link to "rapist" is to another snopes debunkable which has been told in versions quite similar to the Witness version:

    Hello guest!

Many non-Witnesses would be happy to believe that such an experience happened to a Witness, but many Witnesses would be troubled by the fact that non-Witnesses have claimed such experiences, too, and would probably doubt those claims.

2 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

and i would never question what they do. I am humble enough to know that their ways are much higher than mine. But they must have their reasons for saving some and not others.

As you say, however, we cannot question that there may indeed be many cases of divine protection. An thought about why "some and not others" is found in the latter portion of the response to the second link above about the rapist. It's a bit off topic so I won't go into it further, but thought you might find it interesting

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11 hours ago, Anna said:

Jesus was telling his disciples they would recall everything he taught them, and they wrote it down for us, and today the holy spirit will help us to recall what we have read. Holy spirit is also needed to understand what they wrote.

This sounds correct, and it's an excellent way to explain how the holy spirit would lead them into all truth, yet Paul said that still see incompletely and imperfectly, as if looking into a hazy mirror.

This is why I was a bit disappointed at the implication by GJ that seems limiting when it says that holy spirt created the Bible for us (true) but it seems like the holy spirit is not described as playing a part in the process of helping the GB understand it. It's presented as if the HS has already done its work and congealed itself into the Bible, but reading and rationalizing and remembering how verses might apply is the way the holy spirit "acts." He did mention prayer but gave no connection to the process. It ends up sounding like the way people apply Dylan lyrics to their lives or Shakespeare quotes to describe an experience or a "moral" of a story. (The difference being that the Bible "contains" holy spirit.) 

His analogy to the Bible as a "constitution" was very appropriate for the legal setting, but it too is a bit disappointing in the context of how the Governing Body, in effect acts like a congress to pass new and improved bills (doctrines) based on a majority if not unanimous voting.

And there's that historical problem. If holy spirit is needed to understand (and I thin it is) then what does this say about doctrines that are constantly changed, sometimes back and forth.

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12 hours ago, JW Insider said:

LOL. Thanks.  It wasn't by choice, and it's not the first time I have typed "every" for "ever." Among a lot of other mistakes I make is a common one for me where I type "Babylong" for "Babylon" and "imaging" for "imagine." Unfortunately the built in spell-check here will only flag the "Babylong" error.

And for some reason I almost always type "it's" even when it's "its." Another one that rarely gets flagged, so I often neglect to change it

That’s good you see your grammar mistakes in order to stop your attempts of degrading others as well as their word usage even if it’s a common word. You don’t have control over certain words to make nonsensical corrections. Let that be a listen to you, that we are all imperfect and your writings skill “fail” just like the rest of us.

11 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Perhaps it's misguided, but it's a view from "Witness" that I agree with 100 percent.

Fred Franz was very intelligent, of course. But when I recorded two interviews with him for over an hour each, I was forced to come to my own conclusions about him based on the content of things he said, and certain expressions he used.

 

11 hours ago, JW Insider said:

I'm referring more to his comments about 1975 in that same talk. The typical anti-JW sites, usually cut off the talk before he gets to these comments because those sites are more concerned with his views against the Governing Body. But I'm sure you can find the whole talk somewhere. It's what he says after he pulls out his Jewish calendar to show how, if I remember right, it was now the first day of Tishri 5736 and 6,000 years of man's existence had just ended. (It was actually the 2nd day of Tishri, still morning, and it would be the 3rd of Tishri later that day when the sun went down.) 

I don't know if he intended it, but it recalled the day that C.T.Russell came down to the dining room on October 1st, 1914 per the Watchtower of that time period (and later changed to October 4th, and currently stated as October 2nd) to announce that the 'Gentile Times have ended!'  F.Franz then rambled on about some wonderful, happifying numerical significance, since this was the 59th Class, meaning that the 60th was about to start later that year, and "60" should remind us that 6,000 years is 60 centuries. Isn't that amazing!?!?! That this class 59 was only one number away from 60, which somehow gave new significance to 1975.

Then I would have to say not only are you lying to others, your lying to yourself. This is a good example of not trusting you as a man.

Especially when you forced yourself to come to the wrong conclusion by your expressed statement about quietly criticizing Fred Franz a man you obviously never really knew, but through some interviews and Watchtower publications you clearly distort.

What does the *** w75 11/1 p. 671 Graduates of Gilead’s 59th Class Urged to Stick to the Work ***

Graduates of Gilead’s 59th Class Urged to Stick to the Work

What does the 59th Gilead class have to do with some witnesses failing to understand what was really happening in 1975? I hope you have personal experience with living that year as many of us did. It was even brought up in the congregation just last week, and it’s on video on how some mistakenly took the value and significance of 1975.

Perhaps you could have learned something when the same kind of hysteria was shown by some delusional witnesses in Canada last year. That type of hysteria also started in Canada for 1975 end of the world nonsense.

What people should really look at is the motive of certain people like this apostate M. James Penton that could have curved the misinformation but instead kept quiet to make it a talking point in his book, apocalypse delayed. The same kind of distorted rhetoric offered by Raymond Franz.

 

A personal friend turned missionary in central America was encouraged to maintain their due course to continue their fine works given them through the Holy Spirit instead of thinking it was a directive coming from the Watchtower headquarters.

There’s nothing wrong to give the same illustration given by Jesus action to send people out to evangelize through him and not the high priest that new the laws but didn’t practice what they preached.

Luke 10:1-23 New International Version (NIV)

Jesus Sends Out the Seventy-Two

10 After this the Lord appointed seventy-two[

    Hello guest!
] others and sent them two by two ahead of him to every town and place where he was about to go. He told them, “The harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few. Ask the Lord of the harvest, therefore, to send out workers into his harvest field. Go! I am sending you out like lambs among wolves. Do not take a purse or bag or sandals; and do not greet anyone on the road.

 

That is an inconclusive argument in your part to show bias, not actual wisdom since the Watchtower does adhere to the inspired word.

Therefore, Fred Franz was correct is saying Jesus had their back and support. Its written in scripture for those who dedicate their lives to God through the true gospel of Christ.

Romans 12 GOD’S WORD Translation (GW)

Dedicate Your Lives to God

12 Brothers and sisters, in view of all we have just shared about God’s compassion, I encourage you to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, dedicated to God and pleasing to him. This kind of worship is appropriate for you. Don’t become like the people of this world. Instead, change the way you think. Then you will always be able to determine what God really wants—what is good, pleasing, and perfect.

With your illustration, it is more evident, the Watchtower expectation went beyond 1975. Therefore, the evidence itself contradicts your claim and argument.

Now with your rambling on with CTR, I fail to see what the “end of the gentile times” in 1914 have to do with obscuring the year 1975 by some that didn’t understand the 6000 years.

Once again, by your insinuation, you hold the Watchtower personally responsible for the lack of understanding some had, apparently along with your view.

CTR had a presence of mind to understand what 1914 held with the enthronement of Christ as king in the heavens. He had no other expectation by his writings. So their early expectation about the 6000 years was 1873, not 1975. However, there are still some competing thoughts by the Bible Students as to the 6000 years. Redeker still holds the position of 1873 while other Bible Students have changed their chronology to 2043AD. None of which belong to the Jehovah’s witnesses understanding of 1975.

Well, now, the Lord may have something of that character for us, and for all I know the Church may be here during that time of trouble or during a portion of that time of trouble. There is nothing in the Bible that says just as soon as the Gentile times are ended all the Church will be glorified. The Church may be here after the trouble is begun, perhaps. Perhaps. It is possible. We'll see. And we'll be content whatever we see, won't we! That is the situation, dear friends! "Content, whatever lot I see, since 'tis my God that leadeth me." Could we be otherwise than content with God's leading? We may be sure that all the leadings of our Heavenly Father and of our Heavenly Lord will all be for good, that we will have every reason to enjoy His leadings.

This shows you are combining to separate understandings to fabricate an unconscionable situation. I believe, Raymond called it a crisis even though he created that crisis by his erred understanding. He shoulda stuck with the truth instead of listening to a failed man’s treatise, only to ruin his heavenly hope.

    Hello guest!

    Hello guest!

It would stand to reason that after 1975 6000 years if humanity would be entering into the 7th day when God rested, there would be evidence of, more chaos. I believe humanity has proven that point and has not disappointed a true chronologist.

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1 hour ago, FelixCA said:

Let that be a listen to you, that we are all imperfect and your writings skill “fail” just like the rest of us.

It's not a lesson to me, because I have always known this. I have never claimed to write any better than anyone else. I only asked about the meaning of a word that I assumed might have been used correctly, but which didn't make much sense in context. Anytime someone asks what someone meant, it's the same as asking about the meaning of word(s) used. No reason to get angry just because someone asks what you mean. I welcome it when someone asks me what I mean, and I welcome it when someone points out my mistakes.

Also quite different from you, I don't consider bad spelling and grammar to be any kind of "fail" on your part, my part, or for anyone else. That's why you don't see me degrading others, or making fun of grammar or bad spelling. In this case I really wondered what actual meaning was intended in the several recent instances of that particular word I asked about. I also knew why you might seem sensitive about it, but I also really wanted to know what you meant.

1 hour ago, FelixCA said:

Then I would have to say not only are you lying to others, your lying to yourself. This is a good example of not trusting you as a man.

Especially when you forced yourself to come to the wrong conclusion by your expressed statement about quietly criticizing Fred Franz a man you obviously never really knew, but through some interviews and Watchtower publications you clearly distort.

I know how important it might be to impute wrong motives to me. But if you think you know something different, why not share evidence instead of unsubstantiated accusations?

1 hour ago, FelixCA said:

What does the 59th Gilead class have to do with some witnesses failing to understand what was really happening in 1975?

It's another example of Fred Franz' obsession with 1975 and something akin to numerology.

1 hour ago, FelixCA said:

Perhaps you could have learned something when the same kind of hysteria was shown by some delusional witnesses in Canada last year.

You're right. I did learn something from that. Curious too that, before I knew about that Canadian incident, I had already expressed concern that the recent videos being shown with the guns and hiding in rooms could have an unpredictable effect on some Witnesses.

1 hour ago, FelixCA said:

That type of hysteria also started in Canada for 1975 end of the world nonsense.

Interesting. Do you have evidence?

I never saw "hysteria" anywhere. Just a lot of serious people who seriously believed that the period around 1975 was destined to be a very important date related to the time of the end. By serious, I mean they truly believed, but they were also happy about it. I was also both happy and serious about it too. My parents were different as to how they took the predictions about the 1970s, but circuit overseers were encouraging quitting school to pioneer, and I quit school at 15 (1973) to do just that. Naturally, I discussed that plan with my parents in 1972, but was asked to finish out my high school "sophomore" year. My mother liked the idea that it could be as early as 1974, because that would allow for a lot of growth from the increased activity, but it would still come at an hour we were not expecting it. My father was more like: 'It could come anytime between now (1972) and the end of the 80s, picking the 80s because he didn't see world conditions lasting much beyond that. (As the 80s approached he was quick to pick up on some of that "end of the century" talk, always tending to push the end out about 15 years.)

My mother surprised me yesterday because she said I might want to wait until I'm 67 to collect Social Security instead of collecting when I turn 62. I didn't say anything, but thought: "Wow!! What a difference half-a-century makes!!"

1 hour ago, FelixCA said:

What people should really look at is the motive of certain people like this apostate M. James Penton that could have curved the misinformation but instead kept quiet to make it a talking point in his book, apocalypse delayed. The same kind of distorted rhetoric offered by Raymond Franz.

I have Penton's book, but must admit that I haven't read even a quarter of it yet. Is that where your evidence of Canadian hysteria comes from?

1 hour ago, FelixCA said:

There’s nothing wrong to give the same illustration given by Jesus action to send people out to evangelize through him and not the high priest that new the laws but didn’t practice what they preached.

I think you are referring to F.Franz Gilead talk. If you listened to it you would see that he said it was Knorr himself who came up with the idea of the School of Gilead to send out evangelizers, and it was Knorr himself who sent out these first missionaries under the direction of the Watchtower Society. He didn't need a committee to approve. He was, as F.Franz said in the talk, NOT just a figurehead, he was NOT a "do-nothing President." F.Franz considered a president getting direction from a committee, to be the equivalent of the "tail wagging the dog." (He didn't use that expression in the same Gilead talk, but it was implied.)

I think you might be saying that just like Jesus sent out the 70 instead of the unapproved leaders, that the WTBTS or GB or FDS can just as easily represent the approved leaders who send out true missionaries as opposed to the unapproved leaders of Christendom. That might be a true statement, but it was not what F.Franz had in mind when he made it clear that no "ecclesiastical body" should have that responsibility. He made it clear that he liked the idea of a single president wielding authority with the final say, and the ability to just ignore all those under him if he wished. I don't think it was lost on some in the audience that F.Franz knew his time in that office of president would be just a few months away. 

1 hour ago, FelixCA said:

Therefore, Fred Franz was correct is saying Jesus had their back and support. Its written in scripture for those who dedicate their lives to God through the true gospel of Christ.

Yes, you're right; he was correct in saying that. It was his rant against governing bodies (and committees) that seemed out of place, even though he used plenty of scriptures to back it up. He showed how even the apostolic body in Jerusalem was not a centralized body acting in the capacity to send out missionaries.

1 hour ago, FelixCA said:

With your illustration, it is more evident, the Watchtower expectation went beyond 1975. Therefore, the evidence itself contradicts your claim and argument.

No. It doesn't. In fact that was one of the most ambiguous passages in that May 1, 1968 Watchtower about 1975, when it said "1975! And Beyond."  It stated that perhaps some can't see beyond 1975, but Witnesses should see ourselves continuing right on into a new system. These were very carefully crafted words.

1 hour ago, FelixCA said:

Now with your rambling on with CTR, I fail to see what the “end of the gentile times” in 1914 have to do with obscuring the year 1975 by some that didn’t understand the 6000 years.

I recalled the date problem in the Russell story of his announcement of the "end of the Gentile Times" and it reminded me that F.Franz used this opportunity to also announce the "end of the 6th 1,000 year day in the 7th 7,000 year creative day. His, as I recall, also produces a date problem. But it was to show that he was still obsessed with the unscriptural doctrine of the 6,000 years being significant. It is against scripture in that it's based on the idea that either Jesus and the angels either can't count, or this scripture is false:

Matthew 24:36  “Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father.

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21 hours ago, JW Insider said:

These interpretations of prophecy, also, were not written in such a way that they were open to questioning. There was one explanation and it was "the truth" until he changed it.

As a christened "oracle" (by Karl Klein), his words were not those of God, although leading millions as though they were; like you said, as “truth”. 

Someone who had an extraordinarily dark relationship with Franz as a girl, and who's story would most likely never be accepted as reality by JWs, said that he kept a deck of tarot cards in his desk.  It is speculation on my part, but perhaps Mr. Klein also saw the cards, which contributed to calling Franz the “oracle”.   

Nourishing spiritual food?  Not at all.  Isa 8:19-22

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1 hour ago, FelixCA said:

Once again, by your insinuation, you hold the Watchtower personally responsible for the lack of understanding some had, apparently along with your view.

Each one will carry his own load. I don't feel any remorse or bad feeling toward the Watchtower for recommending that I quit school to pioneer. I have thoroughly enjoyed the privilege of full-time service and am very thankful for the experiences it afforded, too. My parents even sold their house just before 1975 so that my father could spend more time closer to a newly formed congregation and my mother could pioneer, too. By then I was living 100 miles away because I had just turned 18, so having two out of three kids out of the house might have influenced the decision as much or more than 1975, but it was on their mind. 

I do think that persons like R.Franz should have done more to curb the influence of F.Franz in what I think was his obsession with 1975. The way R.Franz tells it, it was several people who knew better, but didn't do much about it.

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@JW Insider  quote    "And there's that historical problem. If holy spirit is needed to understand (and I thin it is) then what does this say about doctrines that are constantly changed, sometimes back and forth."

And constantly deliberately  misused.....

It says obviously that the GB are not who they say they are and that they are not guided by Holy Spirit from God or Jesus Christ. 

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@JW Insider  Quote " I don't feel any remorse or bad feeling toward the Watchtower for recommending that I quit school to pioneer. "

Um, don't the GB / WT have lawyers, doctors, skilled people of all sorts ?

So all those folks quit school early and the higher education just floated into their heads did it ?  

 I'm sure if one of them needed surgery they would be glad that some folks actually did take higher education. 

And all the planning for new builds earthwide needs skilled engineers, planning authorities, and more. All those people would have higher education. 

The GB /WT just want dumb folk that they can domineer. 

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2 hours ago, FelixCA said:

CTR had a presence of mind to understand what 1914 held with the enthronement of Christ as king in the heavens.

No he didn't. Where do you get your information from? He continued to believe that Jesus was enthroned in 1878 until the day he died (dying in the latter part of 1916). The Watchtower continued to teach 1878 for another 10 years, and promote it in books for about 20 more years.

But I would agree with you in the sense that they expected 1914 to be a milestone in the earthly, visible outworking of that same Kingdom. It would become visible to the earth in the form of a non-Gentile earthly rulership starting that year. As the Watchtower said in November 1914:

This prophecy was fulfilled, as pointed out in the STUDIES IN THE SCRIPTURES, in the year 1878; and ever since that time, the star of Judaism has been rising; the Jews have become more prosperous ever since, as they themselves realize. Nowhere have they been so prosperous as in these United States, where they have received their greatest blessing; while in Russia and Germany they have been persecuted to some extent, but not in the same degree as formerly.

But this article was written after October 1914, when some adjustments were necessarily in order. When they saw the European war in 1914, they were confused, but assumed it would be the fight that would finish the gentile nations amidst the rise of the Jewish nation. They were now focused on 1915. And, although one could say that the conflict in 1914 was seen as another manifestation of the Kingdom, it was similar to how the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 had also been a manifestation of the Kingdom. The invisible Kingdom was expected to reverse the fortunes of the Jews in 70 and God's Kingdom would not be "established" on earth. So I agree there was a tenuous connection to the earthly visible part of that Kingdom in 1914, but not to Christ's enthronement. As Russell said in the same Watch Tower in November 1914:

Many of us concluded that as far as we could see, October of this year would show the end of the Gentile lease of power; for when October comes we are getting down to the end of the Jewish year. The year 1914 actually ended Sept. 20, 1914, Jewish reckoning.

Now the question comes, Have the Gentile Times ended or not? Some perhaps may be inclined to say, "No; they have not ended." Others would say, "When the Gentile Times shall have ended, we would expect that the Gentiles would be entirely ousted from all power and control, and that Christ's Kingdom would be established. Were there not a great many things that we expected would take place when the Gentile Times would end?"

The time of chaos was expected to begin in this new year 1915 ("before 1916") but now they would be looser with the time expectations. Russell tried to say, in effect, relax, the timeline has slowed down. As one evidence in the same article he notes:

Some think that just the next hour after midnight would see a great, grand change everywhere--evil blotted out in sixty minutes or in sixty seconds. But would it be a reasonable expectation that the Gentile kingdoms would be snuffed out inside of an hour or inside of a day?  . . . Now look back and see what happened immediately after the expiration of different time periods. For instance, there are great day periods mentioned in the Bible, namely, the 1260 symbolic days, the 1290, the 1335 and also the 2300 days. . . . The 1260 years ended in 1799. From their beginning to their culmination, the power of persecution held sway. When the 1260 years ended, was anything done in an hour, in a day, or in a year to stop the persecution? Nay! . . .

Only within the past few years have we reached a maximum of speed on railways and steamships. Apparently they have begun to slow down. Very few trains now go faster than twenty-four miles an hour; . . .

We will not go into details further; we merely wish to impress the thought that these fulfilments of prophecy did not come suddenly, but gradually--that they had a particular time for beginning, and were sure of accomplishment. In view of these lessons from the past, what should we think about the future? We should not conclude that everything would be transformed inside of one minute, or one hour, or one day, but gradually.

This leads us to expect that the remaining prophetic periods will have a similar fulfilment, and that September 20 of this year, 1914, probably marked the end of the Gentile Times. If so, what we are witnessing now amongst the nations is a conflict to their finish. This is exactly what we should expect. Evidently the Lord is behind the matter; the Lord's Kingdom will manifest itself more and more. . . . .Should we expect that the Lord would reveal Himself the very moment Gentile Times end? . . . Just how long after the Gentile Times close will be the revealment in "flaming fire" we do not know. Seemingly, following this great war will come the greatest "earthquake" that ever occurred--a revolution that will involve all the civilized nations. Then Socialism may loom up, but will be short-lived and develop into anarchy. That anarchy will be the "flaming fire" revealing the new Kingdom, taking vengeance, bringing retributive justice upon the world--preceding its blessing.

We might expect it to be five, ten or twenty years. But there is something, on the other hand, that leads us to anticipate that it will not be very long. The Lord has told us that He will "make a short work of it." Just how short the work will be would be conjectural. Every one may have his own opinion. At one time the Lord speaks of it as being "in one hour;" another time, as "in one day;" and the Apostle speaks of it as coming like travail upon a woman with child--suddenly.

We remember also that there is a certain parallel between the Jewish Age and the Gospel Age. The forty years' Harvest of the Jewish Age, which began with Jesus' ministry, 29 A.D., ended in the year 69 A.D.--just as we believe that the Harvest of this age began with 1874 and ended with this fall, 1914.

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1 hour ago, Witness said:

It is speculation on my part, but perhaps Mr. Klein also saw the cards, which contributed to calling Franz the “oracle”.   

I sincerely doubt that, too. There seemed to be a time from 1912 through about 1936 when we find surprising links between some Bible Students and the occult, and various loose connections to spiritism and even claimed demonic influences. But I can never see F.Franz as the type. I don't know what years you are talking about here, but Klein was in and out of Writing for several years and would have known that everyone had to defer to F.Franz as the only one who could explain the various prophecies and parables and who the Jehu class or Jephthah class or Gideon class was. That kind of stuff has been tied to demonism since Russell's time.

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1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Um, don't the GB / WT have lawyers, doctors, skilled people of all sorts ?

So all those folks quit school early and the higher education just floated into their heads did it ?  

Of course, not everyone did, or could. I doubt they expected even such a high percentage as they got. The excitement shows it.

*** km 5/74 p. 3 How Are You Using Your Life? ***
Yes, since the summer of 1973 there have been new peaks in pioneers every month. Now there are 20,394 regular and special pioneers in the United States, an all-time peak. That is 5,190 more than there were in February 1973! A 34-percent increase! Does that not warm our hearts? Reports are heard of brothers selling their homes and property and planning to finish out the rest of their days in this old system in the pioneer service. Certainly this is a fine way to spend the short time remaining before the wicked world’s end.

The specific quote about a future in school is in the Awake! but not in the Watchtower Online Library, but you've probably seen it. Also, a circuit assembly in 1971 influenced me to quit school, but I have no notes on which talk it was.

If the end had come in the mid-70s as expected, no one would have needed professionals. Up until 1975 Bethel HQ had used very few professionals, but in 1976, they accepted computer professionals to start a computer department (my roommate and another friend from St. Louis), electronics professionals (including my brother) to develop some programmable controllers, a second surgeon to live near Bethel to back up Doctor Dixon, etc.

But professionals can always be recruited. Or we could rely on worldly people. Jehovah provides.

Also, I don't think you or I can impute wrong motives of the GB claiming that they wanted dumb people to domineer. Higher education is considered "dangerous" to one's spirituality because, in practice, many Witnesses leave the organization when they go to college. A very high percentage. I understand that there are still some mixed feelings about higher education among the GB.

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16 hours ago, JW Insider said:

LOL. Thanks.  It wasn't by choice, and it's not the first time I have typed "every" for "ever." Among a lot of other mistakes I make is a common one for me where I type "Babylong" for "Babylon" and "imaging" for "imagine." Unfortunately the built in spell-check here will only flag the "Babylong" error.

And for some reason I almost always type "it's" even when it's "its." Another one that rarely gets flagged, so I often neglect to change it.

ahh, do not worry, this typing errors comes with age and common vision problems :) 

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21 hours ago, Anna said:

Well yes, that's because the other sheep weren't figuring in the equation yet. But as soon as they were,  they supported Christ's anointed.

The “other sheep” were figured in prophetically.

 “But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; 10 for you once were not a people, but now you are the people of God; you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.  1 Pet 2:9,10

There was a merging of “sheep” – the physical Jews and physical Gentiles, that all became one “flock” of spiritual “Israel” under their High Priest, Jesus Christ.  They are the anointed ones.  John 10:16

I don't want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you will not be conceited: A partial hardening has come upon Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.  Rev 11:25

1 Cor 12:12-14 - For just as the body is one and has many parts, and all the parts of that body, though many, are one body -- so also is Christ. 13 For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body -- whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free -- and we were all given one Spirit to drink. 14 Indeed, the body is not one part but many.

Rev 14:1

21 hours ago, Anna said:

I don't know what you mean by that they must sacrifice their life for the rest of the Children. Wasn't Christ sacrifice all that was needed for ALL the children? The scriptures you cite don't explain anything you are saying here. All Christians should follow the path of Christ, regardless of them being anointed or not.

You’re right, all Christians should follow the path of Christ.

But, when the Bridegroom and the Bride become one, a family begins.  The Bride of “144,000”, are also members of Christ’s body, becoming one in him.  They suffer the same, they sacrifice their lives also for the rest of God’s children to come from the union with “her” Husband.  They are to imitate his sacrifice.  As members of Christ, they no longer belong to themselves, but only to Christ as one with him, so they suffer as he did.   Rom 12:1; 2 Cor 5:15; Rev 6:9; Rom 6:3  Christ’s sacrifice applies initially to his “brothers”, yet also to everyone. 

By his own choice, he gave us birth by the word of truth so that we would be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.  James 1:18

 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, [

    Hello guest!
]in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. 

The “birth” of the Kingdom is evident not by a date, but by the “labor pains” each anointed one suffers at the hands of Satan. Once the last of each one conquers him by their loyalty to Christ, the New Covenant promise of life becomes a fulfilled reality.  The Kingdom is born.  Rev 12:10

 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body. Rom 8:23

The “Bride” then, as “New Jerusalem” in God’s spirit, and without “labor pains” brings forth the rest of Abraham’s seed.  The anointed are the “firstfruits”, but more of Abraham’s seed is to come. 

“Before she was in labor, she gave birth;
Before her pain came,
She delivered a male child.
Who has heard such a thing?
Who has seen such things?
Shall the earth be made to give birth in one day?
Or shall a nation be born at once?
For as soon as Zion was in labor,
She gave birth to her children.
Shall I bring to the time of birth, and not cause delivery?” says the Lord.
“Shall I who cause delivery shut up the womb?” says your God.
10 “Rejoice with Jerusalem,
And be glad with her, all you who love her;
Rejoice for joy with her, all you who mourn for her;
11 That you may feed and be satisfied
With the consolation of her bosom,
That you may drink deeply and be delighted
With the abundance of her glory.”  Isa 66:7-11

Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husbandAnd I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God.  Rev 21:2,3

“And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.”  Rev 22:17

21 hours ago, Anna said:

I did make a distinction between those anointed on earth, and those in heaven. I said the anointed in heaven are very different from anyone on earth.  The anointed on earth have a calling to heaven, but until they are sealed at the time of their death, they are not part of Jerusalem above yet. The anointed can fail in their faith just like any other Christian. I do not subscribe to the once saved always saved ideology. It's not scriptural. In the first century there were anointed ones who left the faith. However, once sealed and in heaven, they have immortality. But while on earth they do not.

Yes, they can fail and they are tried severely by Satan, who hopes they do fail.  He hoped Christ would fail when tempted in the wilderness.  They must conquer all his deceitful traps and pressures, put upon them.    Rev 3:12

Do you think Judas’ heart was “sealed” while on earth, by his stand with Satan? What about the Pharisees?  Luke 22:3; John 19:15   The anointed become sealed when they clearly accepted Christ as their King. They listen only to him, accepting only him as their Master.  They hear only his voice, and God's. They obey only Christ, not men who want their seal upon an anointed one's head through obedience to them.   Rev 14:1; 13:15,16  It is the same with all of us.  

 Sealing can happen while still on earth.

2 Cor 1:22 - He has also put his seal on us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a down payment.

These sealed ones can be part of  “heaven”, since it is a spiritual state and not a place.  Heb 12:22-24

Once sealed, they voice truth as Christ’s priests and kings “on the earth”.  Rev 5:9,10; 15:3; Eph 6:14-17

Jacob (“Israel”) had a dream of angels from heaven “ascending and descending” on a ladder. Gen 28:12 Jesus said these angels would be ascending and descending upon the son of man.  John 1:15  Remembering that the Bride/“Israel”, which is New Jerusalem comes “down out of heaven”, can you see that these angels are the “144,000” on earth, but also in heaven? 

To Jacob, the promise was given:

 And behold, the Lord stood above it and said: “I am the Lord God of Abraham your father and the God of Isaac; the land on which you lie I will give to you and your descendants14 Also your descendants shall be as the dust of the earth; you shall spread abroad to the west and the east, to the north and the south; and in you and in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed. 15 Behold, I am with you and will keep you wherever you go, and will bring you back to this land; for I will not leave you until I have done what I have spoken to you.”  Gen 28:13-15

Angels are defined as messengers, which the priests of God are; teaching the people the laws of love written on their heart.  Mal 2:7  They do this as “ministering spirits” - as the Bride coming down out of heaven, delivering the "water of life" to the rest of Abraham’s seed who inherit salvation.   Heb 1:14; Rev 22:17

21 hours ago, Anna said:

I have never heard the organization compared to the "temple" or a priesthood. Can you post a quote indicating this? Jerusalem above is comprised only of the Christ and the anointed in heaven.

 

It is subtle in many ways, Anna.  If the organization is necessary for salvation, then it takes the place of the Temple of God.  Jesus is our salvation, nothing can replace that.  God’s House is his dwelling place, which is found in the “living stones” – the anointed ones.  The organization teaches that IT is God’s dwelling place, since it is “spirit-directed”.

Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 1 Cor 3:16

you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.  1 Pet 2:5

in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit. Eph 2:21,22

Ok, we have heard that the kingdom hall is God’s house.  We hear that Warwick is Bethel; and there are Bethels all around the world.  Bethel means “House of God”. I think what is the most blatant example, was the video about an assembly hall and maintaining it, as compared to the early temple.  I can’t find the video, but it seemed to be filmed in the southwestern U.S.   Although now a new one is up, calling the dedicated assembly hall, a gift from God. 

God has one House/dwelling place – his Temple built on Christ.  Why would he bless and call the material endeavors made by men, “God’s House” when he is building it upon his Son?  John 2:19-22  “Greater than Solomon is here”.  Luke 11:31 Since the organization calls its buildings "God's House", can you see how they replace the true house/dwelling of God?

God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands. 25 Nor is He worshiped with men’s hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things.  Acts 17:24-25

 

21 hours ago, Anna said:

??? Haven't the great crowd always supported and helped the anointed? Especially at the beginning when there were more anointed than the great crowd? Now the anointed are in a minority, but the great great crowd still supports them, they work side by side.

If the little flock and the “other sheep” are the anointed, they are the “great crowd” that successfully conquers (this is why they are “great”) Satan by riding with Christ; the faithful remnant wearing white robes.  To prove it, see Rev 7:15  They are found “before the throne” serving in the temple of God, where He dwells among them.

I ask all JWs, to wipe the slate clean of all false doctrine and start anew asking God and Christ for direction on knowing what is truth and what is a lie.   

JWs don’t recognize the important role they are to lead right now.  They are clueless as to what they are suppose to do for Christ.   Someone else is directing knowledge about them and to them.  The anointed and JWs, are following in the footsteps of men and not those of Christ.    The GB say they are the “faithful steward”.  I’ll say it again, to understand what a steward or manager of a house or ship does,  ask yourself, do they accomplish all the tasks to provide everything necessary to keep the house members or the ship’s guests satisfied? No, a steward gathers provision from all servants, and then distributes as needed. 

The GB, out of selfish pride, “will not dig” and is “afraid to beg”, the other servants for provisions.  Luke 16:1-4   They squander away “what is another man’s”  that God bestowed on each anointed one at their anointing; thus, they are the “wicked steward”, the “wicked slave”. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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6 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

@Anna quote " They wouldn't need anyone to teach them (perhaps such as the scribes and pharisees?). " 

Or a Governing Body ? 

Quote "These ones need spiritual instruction just like everyone else." The clue comes in the last 4 words 

What the W/t writer is saying is that the Anointed need instruction from the GB / Writing dept' just like everyone else.

Quote "Otherwise you would be saying God discriminates on account of position, that somebody with a higher position has more value in God’s eyes than someone of a lowly position. "

If 'Experiences' (in Yearbooks / Watchtowers etc)  are to be believed, then it would seem that God / Jesus Christ has / have saved some brothers/sisters in certain circumstances, but not saved other brothers/sisters in other circumstances. Now both God and His Son work in their own ways, working together as one, and i would never question what they do. I am humble enough to know that their ways are much higher than mine. But they must have their reasons for saving some and not others. (If experiencies are to be believed). 

An example of a supposed 'experience' : A sister was on the ministry and knocked on the door of a man. The man turned her away. The man was later arrested for rape/murder of a woman in his own home. When questioned as to why he did not invite the sister in etc, as she had been his first visitor. The man said that she 'had a man stood either side of her', she was not alone. But the sister had gone in to the ministry alone, so the 'man either side of her' must have been angels guarding her. ... True or false I do not know, but I do know it was offered as an 'experience' at a meeting a long time ago. 

 

 

... many, many years ago i heard JW people talking the same "story"here mentioned. 

You open interesting question. Why would god provide help, protection to some JW and not to other JW. When i was much younger, that means, many, many years ago ... again, i heard another "story", true or not, do not know. Some young sisters preached  from house to house (from flat to flat in building) to some young man. A re-visit was agreed. They came next time and then several men raped them.

So, again why would "angels that stand around you as protectors" in preaching service and in life, generally, allowed this crime to happened ?????????????????????????????

Is the answer? To be proved how this World is in power of evil one????... or maybe ...."People must answer on Universal Questions about god's sovereignty, ...or this .....Would people obey god from Love?????? .... or maybe ... So I reflected on all this and concluded that the righteous and the wise and what they do are in God’s hands, but no one knows whether love or hate awaits them. All share a common destiny—the righteous and the wicked, the good and the bad,[

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] the clean and the unclean, those who offer sacrifices and those who do not........

I have seen something else under the sun:

The race is not to the swift
    or the battle to the strong,
nor does food come to the wise
    or wealth to the brilliant
    or favor to the learned;
but time and chance happen to them all.

Please, Do not joke/yoke me with this or similar answers !!!!!!!!!

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@Anna Quote "Well yes, that's because the other sheep weren't figuring in the equation yet. "

So when did the 'other sheep' start to figure in this equation ? 

Because as I've always thought, the Greek Scriptures were written by and for the Anointed only. 

Where does the scriptures actually talk directly to the earthly class ?  And i mean to not about. 

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1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

influenced me to quit school

I had different "motive" why i "had to" quit school in the middle of second grade of high school. (In Croatia we have 8 grades in Primary School and then 4 grades in High School. ......After you can go to "Higher Education" aka University .... ahahaha)

To come back ... In first and second grade, school has program (Communism era) of learning about weapons inside subject called,  in free translation "Pre-military training". In first grade you learned theoretically and in second grade teacher bringing rifles and after students going to shooting place to shoot one or few bullets in wooden target, ...I guess it was wooden :))) .

If you not complete and went to shooting, you can't get evaluation and in final missed to passed a school class, year. I have been baptized in that same month, one Sunday in November 1977. And next day, in Monday, had to, must to "defend"  my "christian belief" in front of teacher. Of course, without happy outcome for me :)))). Well, as i can not see any future in this, i quit school and looking for some job. Imagine. Even elders made meeting in congregation with me to ask about what was happen, but i felt as i was suspected of something from elders.

What can you do without some school or skills or practice and experience? But after one year i get job and learning to be bookbinder in one small workshop not far from home place, in fact 10-15 minutes by walk.....  Doing that for some 1,5 year, in meanwhile went to prison for known reason, and then continue next 1,5 year at same workshop.

 

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20 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Where does the scriptures actually talk directly to the earthly class ?  And i mean to not about. 

 There were many believers in Christ who were baptized, but not all were anointed. I like Acts 2, the Day of Pentacost,  as a good example. Everyone hearing the “great rushing wind”,  question the kerfuffle going on, and Peter explained what happened inside by quoting Joel 2. 

 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.  

And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, “Be saved from this perverse generation.” 41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.  Acts 2:38-41

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33 minutes ago, Witness said:

 There were many believers in Christ who were baptized, but not all were anointed. I like Acts 2, the Day of Pentacost,  as a good example. Everyone hearing the “great rushing wind”,  question the kerfuffle going on, and Peter explained what happened inside by quoting Joel 2. 

 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.  

And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, “Be saved from this perverse generation.” 41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.  Acts 2:38-41

How do you know they were not anointed ? 

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46 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

How do you know they were not anointed ? 

I think there are only a couple examples of persons who were not anointed, about 13 men in all. Interestingly, Luke (as the writer of Acts), mentions that while not "anointed" Apollos was "aglow with the spirit."

  • (Acts 18:24-19:7) . . .Now a Jew named A·polʹlos, a native of Alexandria, arrived in Ephʹe·sus; he was an eloquent man who was well-versed in the Scriptures. 25 This man had been instructed in the way of Jehovah, and aglow with the spirit, he was speaking and teaching accurately the things about Jesus, but he was acquainted only with the baptism of John. 26 He began to speak boldly in the synagogue, and when Pris·cilʹla and Aqʹui·la heard him, they took him into their company and explained the way of God more accurately to him. 27 Further, because he wanted to go across to A·chaʹia, the brothers wrote to the disciples, urging them to receive him kindly. So when he got there, he greatly helped those who through God’s undeserved kindness had become believers; 28 for publicly and with great intensity he thoroughly proved the Jews to be wrong, showing them from the Scriptures that Jesus is the Christ. 19 In the course of events, while A·polʹlos was in Corinth, Paul went through the inland regions and came down to Ephʹe·sus. There he found some disciples 2 and said to them: “Did you receive holy spirit when you became believers?” They replied to him: “Why, we have never heard that there is a holy spirit.” 3 So he said: “In what, then, were you baptized?” They said: “In John’s baptism.” 4 Paul said: “John baptized with the baptism in symbol of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5 On hearing this, they got baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul laid his hands on them, the holy spirit came upon them, and they began speaking in foreign languages and prophesying. 7 There were about 12 men in all.

Some scholars have assumed that, for many of the early years at least,  Baptists were probably a larger group than the Christians. John had obviously baptized many persons before Jesus got there, and there were already crowds being baptized by John. The similarities of their beliefs might have allowed some to join with Christians and not realize that there was more to being a Christian than just verbal acceptance of a Christian message on top of a Baptist message. Some scholars also believe there is early documented evidence of an ongoing debate or even a competition between followers of John the Baptist and followers of Jesus the Christ.

Interesting, too, is the story that explorers in the Middle East in the 1700's came across one or more Bedouin groups, who explained that they were not Christians but claimed to have been followers of John the Baptist for thousands of years. I'll have to look up the story again to get the exact details. It's possible they were followers of Mandaeism, who see John the Baptist as a more important person than Jesus. 

Some scholars, and I might be using the term loosely, have also thought that the Qumram community (the probable guardians of the Dead Sea Scroll "library") was related to John's preaching, and that most of John's followers would have been Essenes.  

Another aside, but Apollos, by some, is considered a prime candidate to have been the author of the book of Hebrews. Note that he was eloquent, and zealous in preaching to Hebrews about Christ. I think it is a minority of modern scholars who believe that Paul wrote the book of Hebrews. We have no evidence one way or another in scripture itself except style and content, but Paul's "calling" or ministry was not to the Hebrews.

 

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@JOHN BUTLER  Only a "BIG handful" of anointed brothers/sisters we've worldwide,  the number is variable.  To be anointed,  that ONLY  knows Jehovah and the brothers / sisters  itself.

Read,  what  jw.org  is  telling  us:

HOW THE ANOINTING PROCESS WORKS

What might an anointed Christian wonder, but what does he never doubt?

    Hello guest!

What are the “token” and the “seal” that each anointed Christian receives from God?—2 Cor. 1:21, 22; ftn.

    Hello guest!

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