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JOHN BUTLER

Apostles, Judas, GB, Raymond, Satan, Holy Spirit

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11 minutes ago, Anna said:

In any case, those are my thoughts. How do you think the HS works, how do you think GJ should have described it?

More emphasis on the power of prayer and even faith in setting the mental and heart attitude that should lead them to the right Scriptures, lead them to see through previous mistakes and resolve them with a consistent picture obtained from Scripture, and on the ability of each of them to bring further and additional scriptures to the table that each of them appreciate as being in consistent harmony with the spirit of the Bible and of an over-arching view of Christianity. There should be more emphasis on speaking in agreement with one another, seeing the value of these decisions in producing a more loving organization producing more love and other fruits of the spirit. Also emphasis on the evidence of Jehovah's blessing through the success of these decisions in how they are appreciated by the worldwide body of Witnesses as a whole. How problems are resolved. How lives are changed for the better.

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37 minutes ago, FelixCA said:

Wasn’t he referring to the first century governing bodies that didn’t think about sending out people to teach Christ gospel?  What part of that is false? Remember don’t confuse the objective.

16 minutes ago, FelixCA said:

What expectation do you think the first-century governing body would have to send people out to evangelize the gospel of Christ? . . . Why, would Fred mention such an irrational thought.

I answered both questions already. You asked if F.Franz wasn't referring to the first century [Jewish] governing bodies. I already said he wasn't and that he referred to modern governing bodies of Christendom today. Then you asked me why he would have mentioned such an irrational thought about the first century governing bodies anyway.

Remember, don't confuse the objective.

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6 hours ago, Anna said:

Who does that?

False prophets (he did prophesy), false "christs", wolves in sheep's clothing, having a form of godliness but denying its power.  Matt 24:11,24; 7:15; 2 Tim 3:5

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@FelixCA, I had said that F.Franz in his Gilead talk, made it clear that, instead of some ecclesiastical body, he liked the idea of a single president wielding authority with the final say, and the ability to just ignore all those under him if he wished. To that you responded:

1 hour ago, FelixCA said:

How different was that with Raymond that thought the same way? Fred believed he could handle the responsibility given him. I wouldn’t characterize him as negative as you make him out to be, and evil self-righteous individual, but some of us knew Fred in a personal level.

I notice that you keep repeating this idea that Raymond Franz also aspired to an authoritative presidency. I'm not sure where you got this idea. Nothing in his books gives that impression, and he states the exact opposite. The impression he gave while at Bethel was also consistent with someone who wanted a quiet, unassuming, thoughtful, existence there. In all his comments he spoke with a quiet, soothing voice. (It was that same voice that read the book of John in the first set of Bible recordings on cassette.)  The political aspirers would rant and raise their voice and talk about things they didn't like. You could tell that R.Franz wanted a more spiritual life than a political life at Bethel.

On the idea that some here knew him on a more personal level, that's very possible. The now-infamous A.Smith said the same thing. I think F.Franz would have been very interesting and possibly even fun to know on a personal level. I was a friend with his long-time Bethel roommate, who left Bethel amid the scandalous kerfluffles of 1980. But did he act haughty, presumptuous and self-righteous? There was no question in the mind of anyone at Bethel. It was just his way -- and his way of talking.

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7 hours ago, Anna said:

I think we might be a little harsh in judging F. Franz for having said this, as from your statement above it was obviously nonsensical. I feel it was just his way of saying things, or maybe the way some people spoke. Although it came across as haughty, I doubt Fred's intention was to put himself above God. Who does that? 

  • Who gets called "The Oracle"?
  • Who realizes that the primary scripture  that stands in the way of his 1975 obsession was when Jesus said that no one knows the day or the hour, and then he himself toys with that very verse in a dismissive way by saying that 'now is not the time to toy with that verse'?
  • Who calls the non-governing Jehovah's Witnesses the "rank and file"? 
  • Who writes all of the explanations for parables and prophecies as if they are doctrines from on high which cannot be questioned?
  • Who claimed that even doubting 1914 was a form of apostasy whether one stated it out loud or not?
  • Who would rant angrily that Jesus can't be the mediator of "every Tom Dick and Harry" but is only the mediator of the 144,000?
  • Who would refer to the Society as if it was not only the Lord's mouthpiece, but that its pronouncements were the same as "the Lord" himself speaking? Example:
    • Here is how Franz put it in the July 1, 1943 Watchtower (p.205):

      Now, the apostle says, Jehovah speaks to us through his
      Son. (Heb. 1: 1, 2) The Son has returned as King; he
      has come to his temple. He has appointed his "faithful
      and wise servant"
      , who is his visible mouthpiece, and says
      to those who are privileged to represent him upon the
      earth, "This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in
      all the world for a witness unto all nations" ...
      These expressions of God's will by his King and through
      his established agency constitute his law or rule of action
      for the "faithful and wise servant" and for their goodwill
      companions today... The Lord breaks down our
      organization instructions further . . . . He says, 'Let us assign the field,
      the world, to special pioneers, regular pioneers and companies
      of Jehovah's witnesses. . . . He [the Lord]
      says the requirements for special pioneers shall be 175
      hours and 50 back-calls per month, which should develop
      into a reasonable number of studies; and for regular
      pioneers 150 hours and as many back-calls and studies as
      can be properly developed during that time. And for
      company publishers he says, 'Let us make a quota of 60
      hours and 12 back-calls and at least one study a week
      for each publisher.' These directions come to us from
      the Lord through his established agency directing what
      is required of us;
      . . . This expression of the Lord's will should be
      the end of all controversy. It is for your good that these
      requirements are made; for thereby you are enabled to
      prove your integrity and magnify the Lord's name.
      These directions from the Lord come to us as individuals
      and as collective units called "companies". ...
      They are to carry on all the forms of magazine work in
      that assignment. ...
      ... The Lord through his "faithful and wise servant" now
      states to us, "Let us cover our territory four times in six
      months."
      That becomes our organization instructions and
      has the same binding force on us that his statement to
      the Logos had when he said, ''Let us make man in our
      image." It is our duty to accept this additional instruction
      and obey it. 

A similar attitude was shown in R.Franz experience after the GB had elicited input from various Branch Overseers in many countries where "alternative service" was an issue. In the book "In Search of Christian Freedom" page 268, R.Franz writes:

Indicative of this, the Society’s president, Fred Franz, also expressed
doubt as to the weight to be given to the expressions of
the Branch Committee members. He reminded the Body that he
had not voted in favor of the worldwide survey and then, sharply
increasing the force of his tone, asked: “Where does all this information
come from anyway? Does it come from the top down? Or
from the bottom up?” He said that we should not build our decision
around the situations found in different countries.
As noted, this phrase regarding “top” and “bottom” was not new
to me. As recently as 1971 in a Watchtower article, Fred Franz had
used it, along with reference to the “rank and file” members of the
organization. But the whole tone of the discussion was extremely
upsetting to me, particularly such expressions as “If we allow the
brothers this latitude.” When recognized by Chairman Klein, I reminded
the members that it was the Governing Body’s decision
to write the Branch Committee members, that those men were
among the most respected elders in their respective countries, and
if we could not give weight to their expressions then to whose
expressions could we do so? I felt compelled to add that my understanding
was that we considered ourselves as a brotherhood and
had no reason to look on ourselves as the “top” of anything, that
we should even find the concept personally repelling.

Edited to add that the Watchtower article written by Fred Franz from 1971 referred to above is this one, an article stating that the Governing Body can't be voted in because they are appointed by Jesus Christ himself:

*** w71 12/15 p. 760 A Governing Body as Different from a Legal Corporation ***
They do not want to cause anything like a situation where the “administrative agency” controls and directs the user of that agency, which user is the governing body as representing the “faithful and discreet slave” class. No more so than to have the tail wag a dog instead of the dog’s wagging its tail. A legal religious instrument according to Caesar’s law should not attempt to direct and control its creator; rather, the creator of the legal religious instrument should control and direct it. . . . Rather, it governs such corporations as mere temporary instruments useful in the work of the great Theocrat. Hence it is patterned according to His design for it. It is a theocratic organization, ruled from the divine Top down, and not from the rank and file up.

 

 

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9 minutes ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Just curious. Wasn’t that Fred’s point. Not to have the present day governing body be as the first century, the governing body.

His point was, basically, that the body of elders at the Jerusalem congregation, even though it included James and some of the apostles, could not constitute a "governing body" or "ecclesiastical body" of authority to make decisions incumbent on the rest of the the Christian congregations. There was an occasion when it did do that, but not because it was an authoritative body, but because that's who started the problem and it was important to get their problem fixed and announce how they resolved it, since it was detrimentally affecting other congregations. As evidence he used the example of Paul, who says he never got appointed from this body in Jerusalem. And how Philip and Barnabas and others were not appointed by a central body in Jerusalem. How, for some purposes, we might as well say that Antioch served the function of such a body. This was all given as evidence that there is no need for a first-century type Christian governing body of the type we imagine Jerusalem had. He derided that idea very sarcastically denying that anyone would have thought that they needed to check in with that body of elders in Jerusalem.

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43 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

More emphasis on the power of prayer and even faith in setting the mental and heart attitude that should lead them to the right Scriptures, lead them to see through previous mistakes and resolve them with a consistent picture obtained from Scripture, and on the ability of each of them to bring further and additional scriptures to the table that each of them appreciate as being in consistent harmony with the spirit of the Bible and of an over-arching view of Christianity. There should be more emphasis on speaking in agreement with one another, seeing the value of these decisions in producing a more loving organization producing more love and other fruits of the spirit. Also emphasis on the evidence of Jehovah's blessing through the success of these decisions in how they are appreciated by the worldwide body of Witnesses as a whole. How problems are resolved. How lives are changed for the better.

Of course I agree with everything you say, and I am sure GJ would too. He obviously didn't want to go into so much detail. The last part of your quote would have no doubt made a good impression on the commission as it could have been linked to the child abuse issue and its resolution. You are probably thinking of the misapplication of scripture which led to problems for the worldwide body of Witnesses in the past. I think now though these are being considered much more, and I would say lives are changed for the better. But this can also be a matter of opinion, because some things are still being judged as a "law" rather than a principle and left to be a matter of conscience.

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1 hour ago, JW Insider said:
  • Who gets called "The Oracle"?
  • Who realizes that the primary scripture  that stands in the way of his 1975 obsession was when Jesus said that no one knows the day or the hour, and then he himself toys with that very verse in a dismissive way by saying that 'now is not the time to toy with that verse'?
  • Who calls the non-governing Jehovah's Witnesses the "rank and file"? 
  • Who writes all of the explanations for parables and prophecies as if they are doctrines from on high which cannot be questioned?
  • Who claimed that even doubting 1914 was a form of apostasy whether one stated it out loud or not?
  • Who would rant angrily that Jesus can't be the mediator of "every Tom Dick and Harry" but is only the mediator of the 144,000?
  • Who would refer to the Society as if it was not only the Lord's mouthpiece, but that its pronouncements were the same as "the Lord" himself speaking? Example: 

Yes.... I know, I know. He obviously had strong opinions. Perhaps he was covinced these opinions were guided by holy spirit? But were his intentions bad? I think you said everyone at Bethel though he acted haughty and self righteous, and that that was just his way. I wonder how he was received at his final calling. I wonder if he is speaking beyond the veil to the new "kids on the block", telling them not to make the same mistakes. Perhaps he already did, through, Raymond's book :)

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1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

Here is how Franz put it in the July 1, 1943 Watchtower (p.205):

Now, the apostle says, Jehovah speaks to us through his
Son. (Heb. 1: 1, 2) The Son has returned as King; he
has come to his temple. He has appointed his "faithful
and wise servant"
, who is his visible mouthpiece, and says
to those who are privileged to represent him upon the
earth, "This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in
all the world for a witness unto all nations" ...
These expressions of God's will by his King and through
his established agency constitute his law or rule of action
for the "faithful and wise servant" and for their goodwill
companions today... The Lord breaks down our
organization instructions further . . . . He says, 'Let us assign the field,
the world, to special pioneers, regular pioneers and companies
of Jehovah's witnesses. . . . He [the Lord]
says the requirements for special pioneers shall be 175
hours and 50 back-calls per month, which should develop
into a reasonable number of studies; and for regular
pioneers 150 hours and as many back-calls and studies as
can be properly developed during that time. And for
company publishers he says, 'Let us make a quota of 60
hours and 12 back-calls and at least one study a week
for each publisher.' These directions come to us from
the Lord through his established agency directing what
is required of us;
. . . This expression of the Lord's will should be
the end of all controversy. It is for your good that these
requirements are made; for thereby you are enabled to
prove your integrity and magnify the Lord's name.
These directions from the Lord come to us as individuals
and as collective units called "companies". ...
They are to carry on all the forms of magazine work in
that assignment. ...
... The Lord through his "faithful and wise servant" now
states to us, "Let us cover our territory four times in six
months."
That becomes our organization instructions and
has the same binding force on us that his statement to
the Logos had when he said, ''Let us make man in our
image." It is our duty to accept this additional instruction
and obey it. 

I know some brothers  who will use very similar expressions with very specific things to do with assignments for  KH cleaning for instance. This is only a slightly exaggerated example; "Jehovah's direction is to use the swifter rather than a mop and bucket to clean the floor in the restrooms". Some people just have a knack....

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That’s right. Jehovah has always had an “Organization” . 

“Jehovah’s direction is to use the swifter” .... many of our dear r and f (rank and file) loved ones use “Organization” and  “Jehovah” interchangeably.

To these ones - in many cases our still in - close family physically in mentally in, PIMI 

to them, sadly the words and concept ORGANIZATION + JEHOVAH mean exactly the same thing.

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7 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Exactly the same point I have often made. This is why I don't blame the Watchtower for the personal decisions I have made, and this is why I never complain that I lost out on anything.

Edited to add: This is why I also have never expressed any kind of resentment, because I don't feel any. Someone on here who comments very little could testify that it was just early this morning when he asked me what I thought of my time at Bethel and my complete answer was:

  • I enjoyed it. I learned a lot. Loved the work. I'm an artist and worked in the art department. Then I got a lot of research assignments, so I got to go to the library a lot.

I don't want  to labour this point as it's not too important but, it has been known for JW parents to put pressure on their children to do certain things or live a certain type of lifestyle. Now of course that is not God's fault, nor the JW Org's fault, but the parents have obviously been instructed/directed to bring up their children in a certain manner. Elders especially have to have their 'own house in order', keeping the kids under control. So maybe some children do not have any personal choices when they are young, and that could include their education... We know that 'in the world' some youngsters are expected to follow in the father's / grandfather's footsteps in the military for instance. So it is in the JW Org, some youngsters are expected to follow their parents into the ministry and for young men to follow into 'positions of responsibility'. I think that is why many leave home and leave the Org asap when they get a job, to get away from parental pressure. 

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1 hour ago, jado said:

That’s right. Jehovah has always had an “Organization” . 

“Jehovah’s direction is to use the swifter” .... many of our dear r and f (rank and file) loved ones use “Organization” and  “Jehovah” interchangeably.

To these ones - in many cases our still in - close family physically in mentally in, PIMI 

to them, sadly the words and concept ORGANIZATION + JEHOVAH mean exactly the same thing.

Too bad then. Because God is far superior to any man made organisation. 

It is wrong to interchange those words. 

An organisation is good as God is a God of order not disorder. 

However, the organisation has to have God's approval and be guided by God's Holy spirit.

The GB and the JW Org show that it does NOT have God's approval and is NOT guided by God's Holy spirit.

So it is not doing God's will properly. 

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9 hours ago, FelixCA said:

Wasn’t that the same assumption apostate’s use for Pastor Russell? That he, in a subtle way was saying the end of the world would come in 1914 when he never directly or indirectly made that claim. It was a wait and see.

It's true that many ex-JWs, apostates and interested persons mistakenly believe that Russell predicted 1914 as the end of the world, when 1914 was NOT supposed to be the end of the world. It was only the final date for the "rapture" of the remnant of Christ's Bride, and the year when Gentile kingdoms would cease ruling, and all religious and political institutions would plunge into their final chaos, which could last until the end of 1915, perhaps even a months beyond.  At the same time, 1914 would also see a non-Gentile government in Jerusalem become established, which would begin to administer the earthly part of a one-world government for everyone on earth except Christians, who would all go to heaven (including the great crowd, also considered to be anointed.)

Many ex-JWs, apostates, and interested persons also mistakenly believe that F.Franz and/or the Watchtower Society predicted that 1975 would be the end of the "world." But in this case absolutely nothing was predicted that would definitely happen in that particular year. It was always about how close 1975 must be to the time when Armageddon was expected because of the unscriptural significance given to the end of 6,000 years of man's existence. F.Franz must have sincerely thought that there was some scriptural significance to "the end of 6,000 years. And of course, this fit perfectly with the idea already being promoted that the end must come before the lifespan ended of those who were teenagers in 1914. In other words they would already be about 75 years old in 1975. And you are right that this was seen to fit a host of other "signs of the times."

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7 hours ago, Anna said:

Jehovah's direction is to use the swifter rather than a mop and bucket to clean the floor in the restrooms". 

When cleaning the Kingdom Hall, there is nothing I like to do more than sing out: “A fine privilege opening up soon here in connection with cleaning a toilet!”

3 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

I think that is why many leave home and leave the Org asap when they get a job, to get away from parental pressure. 

To the extent that this is true, it is pretty much true anywhere. There is a well-known saying among religious persons that “the preacher’s kid is the worst kid in town.’ Either he chafes at being raised in a fishbowl, or he perceives a lack of attention because the preacher is attending to others.

In fact, it is not even religion, and perhaps it is more egregiously true elsewhere. Witness the kid who hates his successful businessman because his attention is everywhere but home.

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11 hours ago, FelixCA said:

but some of us knew Fred in a personal level. 

Since personalities have become the topic, if you knew him, I’d like to hear your take - that is, if you think such is appropriate here, and you may not. JWI gives what seems to be his honest assessment, but it is still an assessment. I recall a verse somewhere about a first viewpoint carrying the day until a contrasting one is heard, that turns everything on its head.

11 hours ago, JW Insider said:

I enjoyed it. I learned a lot. Loved the work. I'm an artist and worked in the art department. Then I got a lot of research assignments, so I got to go to the library a lot.

This is true. He has said the substance of this many times. Doesn’t seem bitter at all. Alas, I am trying to keep up with too many things & don’t read everything closely.

BTW, does he know of a Chris K who worked the art department at about the same time, give or take, and who now streams his work on I-gram? (did I mention this before?)

Also, we were driving through the mountains & just to break up the drive, we stopped in a small town & discovered there a small art gallery. I got to chatting with the proprietor (a Gary someone or other - I have his card somewhere), and upon my identifying myself as a Witness, he said that his wife was out in service at that very hour. As to him, he had gone inactive, and we spoke a bit further about his reasons. Maybe he is on this forum now as one of the bad guys. (No particular reason for me to think it...I just threw it in. He could as likely weigh in as a closet good guy.)

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On 1/29/2019 at 10:57 PM, TrueTomHarley said:

Who is this newcomer so skilled in verbiage...

 

and strange tongues?   :)

Its Spanish for oh my goodness. I was around from time to time because I am looking for music from the dramas in mp3 format. One person who is close to me loves music from the song books, and asked if the dramas at mp3s of some songs.

I am on and off sometimes because of school. Right now I am we have a day off because of cold weather. To be honest, the cold is more brutal than the snow this year.

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1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Since personalities have become the topic, if you knew him, I’d like to hear your take - that is, if you think such is appropriate here, and you may not. JWI gives what seems to be his honest assessment, but it is still an assessment. I recall a verse somewhere about a first viewpoint carrying the day until a contrasting one is heard, that turns everything on its head.

I am afraid I disagree with that assessment. It takes much more than just having breakfast with the GB at Bethel to really know someone. You seem to forget, these are highly spiritual people that won't involve themselves in the daily struggles of their personal lives. They concentrate on the spiritual needs of all the worldwide brotherhood. 

That in itself is a monumental task to think of others before your own. JWI assessment is of an angry hateful person bent on maligning FRED, bottom line. Therefore, NO! it's not an honest assessment by any standard. Since you are an author, I would think your research is for the truth, not some halfbaked drawn conclusions by an individual that has made up his mind to align himself with opposers and try to persuade people he still holds the truth in his heart. I'm, sorry friend, the world doesn't revolve around JWI, for as much as you admire his limited knowledge of Bethel. I would enjoy hearing what the excuse is going to be, come judgment day.

This is another indicator:

·  Who gets called "The Oracle"?

·  Who realizes that the primary scripture  that stands in the way of his 1975 obsession was when Jesus said that no one knows the day or the hour, and then he himself toys with that very verse in a dismissive way by saying that 'now is not the time to toy with that verse'?

·  Who calls the non-governing Jehovah's Witnesses the "rank and file"? 

·  Who writes all of the explanations for parables and prophecies as if they are doctrines from on high which cannot be questioned?

·  Who claimed that even doubting 1914 was a form of apostasy whether one stated it out loud or not?

·  Who would rant angrily that Jesus can't be the mediator of "every Tom Dick and Harry" but is only the mediator of the 144,000?

·  Who would refer to the Society as if it was not only the Lord's mouthpiece, but that its pronouncements were the same as "the Lord" himself speaking? Example:

  • Here is how Franz put it in the July 1, 1943 Watchtower (p.205): 

Yes, it was among the favs from the apostate site free-minds. I don’t know if they are still around, but it’s an oldie but goodie by opposers. I would encourage any sensible person to read the full context of “Righteous Requirements” for themselves instead of relying on a misrepresented, snipped. Although, I have no clue if Fred was the author of that article piece, if someone lays claim to being absolute it was FRED, I would ask for proof. After all, we need to distinguish rants from one another. The only thing proven here is personal resentment and hatred for one individual. The good thing, it’s all meaningless.

*** w71 12/15 p. 760 A Governing Body as Different from a Legal Corporation ***

 

Once again, I would refer people to read the full context to understand how the presidency and the governing body worked at that time. It appears the misinformation is laying a foundation into a false claim.

*** w71 12/15 p. 755 A Governing Body as Different from a Legal Corporation ***

A Governing Body as Different from a Legal Corporation

 

I believe the topic of how the Holy Spirit works by different people has been proven by scripture which can be tied to the operation of the Watchtower. Ex’JW’s insist in combining everything to make their argument solid. It hasn’t worked yet.

Now I'm not saying the early leaders weren't direct. If you asked a stupid question, you would get a profound hard response. One thing is dealing with imperfection, it's quite another thing to say they were doing things, for themselves. Only a blind man cannot see the advances and changes the Watchtower has adapted to by generation.

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1 hour ago, Queen Esther said:

Fact is,  NO JW can make unseen itself in the Kingdom Hall....   Every week, another group is cleaning Jehovah's  Holy-house.  Btw, Jehovah is watching us all, every sec.😀

I don't actually think God is watching every one of us every second. 

God has the ability to do so of course, but probably chooses not to. 

 

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