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JOHN BUTLER

Inspired Choices? Jesus Picked Judas; Governing Body Picked Raymond Franz;

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1 minute ago, Anna said:

What would you say to Jesus when he handpicked Judas Iscariot as one of his 12 Apostles?

People always seem to harp back to 2000 years ago, to try to make a defence for the GB. 

Different times, different situations.

Judas allowed himself to be misled by the devil, but it also seems it was necessary that the betrayer came from within. 

Maybe you should have quoted this bit as well. "Yet he gets kicked out by the other members of the GB for being an apostate."

Because it seems Raymond Franz didn't betray God or Jesus Christ.

Knowledge of such things is way over my head of course, so I don't know who was right in God's viewpoint.

But it does give a person reason to distrust the GB if RF wasn't found guilty of any real wrongdoing. 

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25 minutes ago, FelixCA said:

Then you challenge God’s sovereignty and superiority. I would have to ask, who are you to challenge God? Are you Satan as the inference implies? Hitler was an evil man as a youth. That darkened heart continued to increase over the embarrassment of having his country lose a war and having Jews gain some control over the motherland. Therefore, the Hitler analogy is inadequate in how someone would blame an organization or society. Seems like an overreach bordering on mental instability.

 

Are you foreign that you do not understand English properly ? No disrespect if you are, but it would give me reason to know why you misinterpret  everything i  write.

It was / is the wicked angels, that is the devil and his demons,  that challenge God's sovereignty not me. I just stated the case....  

Hitler could not have done any of the wicked deeds without the majority of Germany backing him.  The  Germans may not have backed him because they wanted to, but maybe out of fear. Just as JW's serve the GB through the Elders, out of fear. 

Just as people come on here , this forum, but use pseudonyms, out of fear of being found out by the Elders.

Felix i see you are using the GB's idea of suggesting people are mentally unstable. Typical Watchtower doctrine. 

Sorry Admin but I'm just answering Felix. Perhaps Felix should start another topic of should i just ignore him ?  

But let's get back on topic. A question 

Is it a disfellowshipping offence to read Raymond Franz books, or to own them ? 

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2 hours ago, Witness said:

We have full evidence that the disciples were inspired by Spirit. John 20:22;  Rom 8:5,9; 1 Cor 2:10  We don't have that evidence with the GB who must alter teachings continually.   We don't hear how the Spirit directs them, but that they are not "inspired"; so, instead, we hear how the GB put their heads together to come up with new decrees.  There is no comparison to the apostles.  Why make it?  

Are you suggesting, Jesus didn’t alter the Jewish teaching? At what point does denigrating the GB by you and Butler amount to ethical thinking. A person that opposes God’s coordinated earthly rule and one that renounces their own faith have zero credibility to any conversation.

So far, I see conflict as Raymond Franz had about CHANGE. Although the change he had in mind was becoming the next President of the Watchtower, and when that didn’t happen, apostasy grew within.

As a living sacrifice, shouldn’t we make a change? Romans 12:1-2

Shouldn’t we be renewed day by day? 2 Corinthians 4:16-18

Whereas those that oppose authority defy God.

Romans 13:2

2Consequently, the one who resists authority is opposing what God has set in place, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.

There seems to be some confusion about the great commission. Matthew 28:19-20 and the rule we each have with our personal abilities. Mark 16:15 what it means to preach thought-out the world. Acts 1:8 and who has what capabilities and responsibilities. 

 

Ephesians 4:11-16 King James Version (KJV)

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ: 14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

 

Those that refuse to obey the instructions left by Christ cannot be called a Christian. Jesus appointed the apostles but God gave them the Holy Spirit just as it was given to Christ. Jesus appointed the laborers for the harvest Luke 10, but God gave them the Holy Spirit.

Did Jesus defy the prevailing authority? Matthew 23:2-4

Therefore, let’s put that authority nonsense to rest once and for all. What is a flock without a shepherd? Acts 20:28 who are the overseers, the sheep? I can think of several things not to listen to such lofty arguments. 2 Corinthians 10:5

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2 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

It was / is the wicked angels, that is the devil and his demons,  that challenge God's sovereignty not me. I just stated the case

Your wrong, you are doing the same thing. Therefore, don't lie to yourself, no one else is listening.

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1 hour ago, FelixCA said:

Are you suggesting, Jesus didn’t alter the Jewish teaching? At what point does denigrating the GB by you and Butler amount to ethical thinking.

You appear to be placing the GB on the same level as Jesus Christ, which I agree that they have accomplished this.  Jesus altered the Jewish teaching because its leaders spoke as their "father", Satan.  

  Is anyone allowed to alter Jesus' teachings?  

 

1 hour ago, FelixCA said:

A person that opposes God’s coordinated earthly rule and one that renounces their own faith have zero credibility to any conversation.

Can you give me scriptural verification that the GB is God's coordinated earthly rule?

The Watchtower has corrupted the decrees of God – His Word. God’s “laws” are the source of life which Jesus brought us as, “The Word”. John 1:1 His teachings incorporate every decree God expects us to follow. The WT leaders “judge” and “measure” according to the decrees of men.

 

The “Pharisaical” leaders of the WT cannot interpret the decrees of God since they have come as false “christs”, lording it over anointed and all in the organization. Matt

    Hello guest!
  They expect obedience to them and their decrees, and not to Jesus Christ and his Word, which comes from God.

" Don’t you believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me? The WORDS I speak to you I DO NOT SPEAK ON MY OWN. The Father who lives in Me does His works." John

    Hello guest!

“Don’t assume that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For I assure you: Until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or one stroke of a letter will pass from the law until all things are accomplished. 19 Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commands AND TEACHES PEOPLE TO DO SO, will be called least in the kingdom of heaven. But whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you, UNLESS YOUR RIGHTEOUSNESS SURPASSES THAT OF THE SCRIBES AND PHARISEES, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.” Matt

    Hello guest!
-20

"You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you."   Deut 4:2

1 hour ago, FelixCA said:

Those that refuse to obey the instructions left by Christ cannot be called a Christian.

That's right.

 

 

 

 

 
 
 
 
 
 

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1 hour ago, Witness said:

Can you give me scriptural verification that the GB is God's coordinated earthly rule?

The Watchtower has corrupted the decrees of God – His Word. God’s “laws” are the source of life which Jesus brought us as, “The Word”. John 1:1 His teachings incorporate every decree God expects us to follow. The WT leaders “judge” and “measure” according to the decrees of men.

So far scripture stipulates those that can take the lead. You seem to fail in wanting to acknowledge their needs to be a party responsible in any given organization as instructed by Jesus. A faithful servant, reputable men, shepherd of a flock. All these are found in scripture you seem to dismiss. The ancients had prophets as guides. Christianity was guided by Christ and instructed to do the same throughout the world. With responsible people in the lead. Why defy Jesus instructions and God’s laws. 2 Timothy 4:3-4

What part of Christ words in Acts 20:28-30 fails you. These are the inspired words of God through John 1:1

Then it is yourself that are altering Jesus teachings. Then you should consider placing yourself in the same category as the GB. It’s dishonest to claim scripture as a convenience. 1 John 4:1-6

Therefore, can you give me verification the Watchtower GB is NOT God’s coordinated helpers on earth as God's will is in heaven?

On the rest, it appears the interpretation you give on scripture is misguided. Can anyone listen to a corrupter of God's word? Once again, wouldn’t that put you in the same category as these “Pharisaical leaders” you hate? Matthew 16:11-12

It appears the same problem Raymond Franz had after confusing scripture with his own personal desire.

All that the GB is about is written in scripture. In effect, the Watchtower constitution. What, is your constitution and doctrine when having people understand scripture the incorrect way for personal gain. Therefore, no one is adding to Christ instructions aside from those that hate a fellow Christian Colossians 2:4

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1 hour ago, FelixCA said:

What part of Christ words in Acts 20:28-30 fails you.

I have no problem at all with it.  I do not lay down new decrees for men to obey as the GB is known for, and admits to doing.  (Check with Anthony Morris about this)  This is "distorting the truth" - Christ's truth.

Felix the Cat carried around a Magic Bag of Tricks.  I'll just say this; no further comment, Allen Smith.  :)

 

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@JW Insider Thank you, I could not link to this so this is a great help, and those last few comments I would not want to have missed. 

@FelixCA you mentioned," With responsible people in the lead."

So not the GB then :) 

Quote " Therefore, can you give me verification the Watchtower GB is NOT God’s coordinated helpers on earth as God's will is in heaven? " 

By their works you will know them.  Evidence proves the GB are not God's true servants. 

  

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@FelixCA  "All that the GB is about is written in scripture."    Ah yes, offering children to Molech.  

Quote "Whereas those that oppose authority defy God. " 

Well the Pope has authority in the eyes of many. The Archbishop also has authority in the eyes of many. 

And your GB has authority in the eyes of a few. 

So you see, your comment means nothing at all. You are lost. 

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 God gave his intelligent creation freedom of choice. Jehovah made a beautiful angel in heaven along with myriads of others, he decided to become a resister of Jehovah's purpose later on and is called Satan. Jesus picked Judas, Judas changed afterwards. Governing body picked Raymond Franz, etc etc  Everyone intelligent creation can change.

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42 minutes ago, Melinda Mills said:

 God gave his intelligent creation freedom of choice. Jehovah made a beautiful angel in heaven along with myriads of others, he decided to become a resister of Jehovah's purpose later on and is called Satan. Jesus picked Judas, Judas changed afterwards. Governing body picked Raymond Franz, etc etc  Everyone intelligent creation can change.

You have been taught well. You are good at twisting things to your own purpose just like the GB does. 

But you have chosen a very sly way to accuse Raymond Franz. 

And anyway if you believe the GB are who they pretend to be, wouldn't God have chosen Franz, or possibly Jesus chosen Franz ?

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1 hour ago, Melinda Mills said:

Jesus picked Judas, Judas changed afterwards.

But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.  John 6:64

Jesus said to him, “He who is bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you.” 11 For He knew who would betray Him; therefore He said, “You are not all clean.”  John 13:10,11

 Now when He was in Jerusalem at the Passover, during the feast, many believed in His name when they saw the signs which He did. 24 But Jesus did not commit Himself to them, because He knew all men, 25 and had no need that anyone should testify of man, for He knew what was in man.  John 2:23-25

 

 

 

 

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Jesus at some point knew it was Judas.  It was prophesied that someone close would do it. Jesus would have discerned that it was Judas as he showed up his deviousness surrounding greed for money, among other things written and not written. However, Jesus prayed all night  before choosing Judas and the others.  He was a good person at that point.

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1 hour ago, Melinda Mills said:

Jesus at some point knew it was Judas.  It was prophesied that someone close would do it. Jesus would have discerned that it was Judas as he showed up his deviousness surrounding greed for money, among other things written and not written. However, Jesus prayed all night  before choosing Judas and the others.  He was a good person at that point.

“At some point”. Yes, he prayed because he said he did nothing but what the Father told him.  John 5:30; 8:28.  Since God knows all things, do you believe He would keep Judas as the betrayer a secret from Jesus, letting him find out on his own?   You are saying Jesus had no ability given him by God, to read the heart of man. Scriptures say otherwise.  John 2:23-25; 6:64  Judas was chosen as a betrayer.  It sounds like your saying that Jesus was in the dark about who of the 12, would betray him until he proved himself to be a thief.  Both God and Christ knew his heart.  John 2:23-25.  Jesus knew “from the beginning”.  “He knew all men”.   

John 17:12 - While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.

Do you believe he didn't know how he would die, or that Pilate would be instrumental in sending him to his death at the demand of the Pharisees?  He knew exactly how it would happen and by whom. 

Jesus replied, “If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. 55 Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and obey his word. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.”

57 “You are not yet fifty years old,” they said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”

58 “Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”   John 8:54-58

Judas’ role as the betrayer was fulfilled. Ps 41:9; Mark 14:19-21   Jesus’ choice for the twelfth apostle was Paul; another stumbling block most likely, for JWs. He personally chose all 12 apostles, as well as who would betray him.  Matthias was chosen by men, who cast lots. Acts 1:26

Here are examples of Jesus’ knowing what was in the heart of each person even before speaking with them.

Now some teachers of the law were sitting there, thinking to themselves, “Why does this fellow talk like that? He’s blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?”

Immediately Jesus knew in his spirit that this was what they were thinking in their hearts, and he said to them, “Why are you thinking these things? Mark 2:6-8

 

When Jesus saw Nathanael approaching, he said of him, “Here truly is an Israelite in whom there is no deceit.”48 “How do you know me?” Nathanael asked.

Jesus answered, “I saw you while you were still under the fig tree before Philip called you.” 49 Then Nathanael declared, “Rabbi, you are the Son of God; you are the king of Israel.” John 18:47-49

How did Jesus see him?  Spiritually, physically?  How did he determine that Nathaneal had “no deceit” unless he read his heart?  John 18:47-49

 

 

 

 

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Agree with most of what you said. But Judas as not predestined to be the betrayer - he chose to be at some point. It would be unloving of Jehovah to predestine someone for destruction. Jehovah gave us all freedom of choice.

See passage below.  This is all for now.

*** it-2 pp. 129-130 Judas ***
Became Corrupt. Near Passover 32 C.E., Judas, with the other apostles, was sent out preaching. (Mt 10:1, 4, 5) Shortly after Judas’ return, and less than a year after he had been made an apostle, he was publicly denounced by Christ, though not by name. Some disciples left Jesus, being shocked over his teachings, but Peter said that the 12 would stick with Christ. In response Jesus acknowledged that he had chosen the 12 but said: “One of you is a slanderer [Gr., di·aʹbo·los, meaning “devil” or “slanderer”].” The account explains that the one who already was a slanderer was Judas, who “was going to betray him, although one of the twelve.”—Joh 6:66-71.
In connection with this incident John says: “From the beginning Jesus knew . . . who was the one that would betray him.” (Joh 6:64) From Hebrew Scripture prophecies Christ knew that he would be betrayed by a close associate. (Ps 41:9; 109:8; Joh 13:18, 19) God also, by use of his foreknowledge, had seen that such a one would turn traitor, but it is inconsistent with God’s qualities and past dealings to think that Judas had to fail, as if he were predestined. (See FOREKNOWLEDGE, FOREORDINATION.) Rather, as already mentioned, at the beginning of his apostleship Judas was faithful to God and to Jesus. Thus John must have meant that “from the beginning” of when Judas started to go bad, started to give in to imperfection and sinful inclinations, Jesus recognized it. (Joh 2:24, 25; Re 1:1; 2:23) Judas must have known he was the “slanderer” Jesus mentioned, but he continued to travel with Jesus and the faithful apostles and apparently he made no changes.
The Bible does not discuss in detail the motives for his corrupt course, but an incident that occurred on Nisan 9, 33 C.E., five days before Jesus’ death, sheds light on the matter. At Bethany in the house of Simon the leper, Mary, Lazarus’ sister, anointed Jesus with perfumed oil worth 300 denarii, about a year’s wages for a laborer. (Mt 20:2) Judas strongly objected that the oil could have been sold and the money “given to the poor people.” Evidently other apostles merely assented to what seemed to be a valid point, but Jesus rebuked them. Judas’ real reason for objecting was that he cared for the money box and he “was a thief . . . and used to carry off the monies” put in the box. So Judas was a greedy, practicing thief.—Joh 12:2-7; Mt 26:6-12; Mr 14:3-8.
Betrayal Price. Judas was undoubtedly stung by Jesus’ rebuke about the use of money. At this time “Satan entered into Judas,” likely in the sense that the traitorous apostle gave himself in to the will of the Devil, allowing himself to be a tool to carry out Satan’s design to stop Christ. A few days later, on Nisan 12, Judas went to the chief priests and temple captains to see how much they would pay him to betray Jesus, again showing his avarice. (Mt 26:14-16; Mr 14:10, 11; Lu 22:3-6; Joh 13:2) The chief priests had that day met together with “the older men of the people,” the influential men of the Sanhedrin. (Mt 26:3) The temple captains may have been brought in because of their influence and to lend legal flavor to any planned arrest of Jesus."


 

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45 minutes ago, Melinda Mills said:

But Judas as not predestined to be the betrayer - he chose to be at some point. It would be unloving of Jehovah to predestine someone for destruction. Jehovah gave us all freedom of choice.

And Judas had that freedom of choice just as the Pharisees did, as all those who are wicked  “from youth up”.  Judas was an “anti-christ”, a “son of perdition”.  He had the freedom to change, to be cleansed through Jesus’ teachings but his heart held fast to wickedness.

Jesus answered, “Those who have had a bath need only to wash their feet; their whole body is clean. And you are clean, though not every one of you.” 11 For he knew who was going to betray him, and that was why he said not every one was clean.  John 13:10-11

Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!” 71 (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)  John 6:70-71


Was God the “Father” of the Pharisees?

Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on my own; God sent me.43 Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. John 8:42-44

Christ’s words leading to life were not hidden from the Pharisees or Judas.   They chose to remain wicked and follow in the footsteps of their father, Satan.  Judas was the “seed” of Satan, as were the Pharisees. 

 

And I will put enmity
    between you and the woman,
    and between your seed and hers;
he will crush your head,
    and you will strike his heel.”  Gen 3:15

You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good? For the mouth speaks what the heart is full of.  Matt 12:34

A good man brings good things out of the good stored up in him, and an evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in him.  Matt 12:35

Even from birth the wicked go astray;
    from the womb they are wayward, spreading lies. Ps 58:3

The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born.”  Matt 26:24

God already knew who would betray his Son, before Judas was ever born. 

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1 hour ago, Witness said:

He had the freedom to change, to be cleansed through Jesus’ teachings but his heart held fast to wickedness.

But when grace is shown to the wicked,
    they do not learn righteousness;
even in a land of uprightness they go on doing evil
    and do not regard the majesty of the Lord.  Isa 26:10

1 hour ago, Witness said:

You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. John 8:42-44

 

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4 hours ago, Melinda Mills said:

Shortly after Judas’ return, and less than a year after he had been made an apostle, he was publicly denounced by Christ, though not by name.

Christ knew that he would be betrayed by a close associate.

 But one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, who was later to betray him, objected, “Why wasn’t this perfume sold and the money given to the poor? It was worth a year’s wages.” He did not say this because he cared about the poor but because he was a thief; as keeper of the money bag, he used to help himself to what was put into it.  John 12:4-6

Do you really believe it took Jesus that long to find out that Judas was corrupt?  Jesus, who knew the hearts of men?

Here's another example:

"Some men brought to him a paralyzed man, lying on a mat.  When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the man, "Take heart, son; your sins are forgiven".  At this, some of the teachers of the law said to themselves, "This fellow is blaspheming!"  Knowing their thoughts, Jesus said, "Why do you entertain evil thoughts in your hearts?"    Matt 9:2-4

 

4 hours ago, Melinda Mills said:

Rather, as already mentioned, at the beginning of his apostleship Judas was faithful to God and to Jesus. Thus John must have meant that “from the beginning” of when Judas started to go bad, started to give in to imperfection and sinful inclinations, Jesus recognized it.

Firstly, they state it as fact that Judas was faithful to God and Jesus, then make the supposition that John "must have meant" that Jesus didn't recognize Judas as "bad" until almost a year after he chose him, and that this is what is meant by "from the beginning".  Judas belonged to Satan "from the beginning" as his spawn,  right along with the Pharisees.

 Watchtower’s leaders are so adept at lessening  and hiding the power of Christ; yet, he predicted Peter’s denial of the Christ before Peter fulfilled his words. Luke 22:34    He was a prophet AND the Son of God;  have JWs forgotten this?

I hope you can reason on this through the scriptures, Melinda.  

 

 

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21 hours ago, Melinda Mills said:

But Judas as not predestined to be the betrayer - he chose to be at some point. It would be unloving of Jehovah to predestine someone for destruction. Jehovah gave us all freedom of choice.

This sort of subject, question on predestination, free choice and God's capacity to see future is problematic to understand, for me at least :)))

Some quotes from WT publications stated, how God can see your future and all in your personal life, but he  not using his capacity, power to do that, how he respects your individuality and privacy, so he has no need to deal with you in such way. But on other hand he will use this method if he have reason for that. All examples about idea and practice, when God decide to brake your  privacy, ant to used this kind of going into your free will, future, state of heart and mind, we have in few bible reports, Judas is one example.

If God see your bad intentions, and how you will never, but never, for sure never change your attitude as in Judas case, then NO ONE can give any help to such person. If God saw how Judas alone as person can not change his personality, how Jesus can not help him to change, how no one of his family, friends can do nothing about it, than all is in vain even for Judas alone and all his intentions and tries, because God Himself saw and PREDICT how such person will be born and done this to Jesus. And how that will not be done by some brother from Egypt or China but ONLY from one of 12. And in one of 12 only Judas will be that person. God saw how Judas, and no one else but Judas will do this. And by that, God "choose" Judas for doing this act. Did God saw Judas future before Adam and Eve creation?? Or after? Or before Abraham? Or before John Baptist? This would be Speculative conversations and theories !!!!! coming to NO WHERE!

If He saw Judas failure future,  did he decide how he can not help him because, as verses said, Judas heart was bad?? So, how many hearts here on this forum are bad in that way, that god can not do nothing about that?? 

JW believe how life is not predestined. Only believes how God can see your future, and future of all mankind.  But with subject of "prophesies" you must to enter in sphere of predestination.

Is "prophecy" merely God's looking in future events that will be? If it is, then life is predestined in some way, because future is already past event, for God at least who saw your past, present and future before you came in existence. And if He decide not to intervene,  people can not do nothing else but just the things He saw they/you are doing.

If "prophecy" is something what will be done by somebody in the future, than you are again in sphere of predestination because somebody will and must fulfill particular "prophecy" because God already saw particular event.

Did He saw what things will take place in the future

or

did He saw what things will not take place in the future?   

:))))

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He can foresee in detail if he chooses to like in the case of Cyrus - even before he was born.   But he is not the cause of the outcome.  It is only that he can see it.  Free will is the cause of the outcome. In the case of Esau he also saw the different genes and bent of the person.

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3 hours ago, Melinda Mills said:

He can foresee in detail if he chooses to like in the case of Cyrus - even before he was born.   But he is not the cause of the outcome.  It is only that he can see it.  Free will is the cause of the outcome. In the case of Esau he also saw the different genes and bent of the person.

Ok, but one little detail - God also has free will to chose, and by that to cause or not to cause outcome of something. And we will never know what was happened. :)  

Or, we can talk about question; Does God has free will? Or He acting in a way He MUST to act, because He is God and God acting as God. When people say God is love and good, than they mean, He can't be unrighteous, or bad. So, by that, He has not free will to act in a different way but only in one way - always showing justice, mercy, love ....even in a situation when he killing humans. Interesting,    

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I think when it comes to God, there are naturally many things we cannot, and NEVER will, comprehend about him. Like the the concept of him having no beginning. Everything he wants us to know about him, he has revealed in the Bible. And of course as Melinda mentioned, we know about his qualities through ourselves, because we were created in his image. When it comes to free will, it is a gift from God, and he never has taken that away from any of his intelligent creatures. It makes sense that Jehovah can 'predict' what a person will do, because even we can correctly predict what someone will do. Jehovah can do that so much better because he can read hearts. We can only go by what we see, hear and past experience.

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Just a thought about “image”.  Adam and Eve were “made in the image of God”  Did they retain that image after they sinned?  Or did they adopt another “image”, one as the result of sin?

"Then God said, 'Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.' So God created mankind in his own image,
    in the image of God he created them;
    male and female he created them.
God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day."     Gen 1:26,27,31

 

It ceased being very good when Adam and Eve sinned.

And he said to the man, "Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, 'Do not eat from it': The ground is cursed because of you. You will eat from it by means of painful labor all the days of your life.   Gen 3:17

He called them “mankind” when they were created, when they possessed the Spirit of God.    Gen 5:1,2  Once they sinned, God’s Spirit left them according to their choice and they were no longer considered Sons of God who would live eternally, but suffered decay and death.  Rom 8:20,21

We choose the “image” we want to portray.  Either Satan and lies, which lead to destruction, or only God and Christ through his teachings bringing eternal life.  We can’t be slaves to both and expect Jesus to grant us salvation. Rom 6:16   The image of God is pure, perfect, blameless.  Jesus set the example for us; we are to follow closely in his footsteps to achieve that image of God. 2 Cor 4:4; Col 3:10; Rom 13:14   Any other "image" that we may follow, and that touts the source of salvation would not be pure, perfect, and blameless.  

 

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@Srecko Sostar Frida, God doesn't need to "act" as God, he is God. Él es mi padre y tu padre.

God doesn't change. God is love, Just, in Order, etc. When he does something there is reason behind it, when he says something, it will happend and it will be done.

God isn't unrigehotus. If you don't understand God's thinking then it would pose as a problem. And you have time to do this, and if not, well you'll be outta time, my guy.

God is a real person, and anyone can speak to him and be close to him as many in the past. He isn't impossibly far from anyone. 

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7 hours ago, Equivocation said:

to "act"

....perhaps my English cause misunderstanding 

act

/akt/

verb
  1. 1.
    take action; do something.
    "they urged Washington to act"
    sinonimi: take action, take steps, take measures, take the initiative, move, make a move, react, do something, proceed, go ahead; 
     
     
  2. 2.
    behave in the way specified.
    "they challenged a man who was seen acting suspiciously"
    sinonimi: behave, function, react, perform; 
noun
  1. 1.
    a thing done; a deed.
    "a criminal act"
    sinonimi: deed, action, gesture, feat, exploit, move, performance, undertaking, manoeuvre, stunt, operation, venture, effort, enterprise, achievement, accomplishment
    "a life filled with acts of kindness"
  2. 2.
    a pretence.
    "she was putting on an act and laughing a lot"
    sinonimi: pretence, false display, show, front, facade, masquerade, charade, guise, posture, pose, affectation, appearance; Više

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On 1/29/2019 at 1:50 AM, Srecko Sostar said:

?? He changed Law. From Mosaic to Christ law. for example :))

Well true, but nothing changed, only fulfilled in the one man's teachings.  

“Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.   Matt 5:17-19

 

On 1/26/2019 at 3:40 AM, Srecko Sostar said:

Did He saw what things will take place in the future

or

did He saw what things will not take place in the future?   

:))))

Both.  :)  Isa 46:10; Prov 24:12; 1 John 3:20

 

On 1/28/2019 at 5:56 PM, Equivocation said:

If you don't understand God's thinking then it would pose as a problem. And you have time to do this, and if not, well you'll be outta time, my guy.

Who understands God's thinking.? Only Christ does.  If we deviate whatsoever from his teachings, how can we even begin to understand God's thinking? 

“Who is this that obscures my plans
    with words without knowledge?
3 Brace yourself like a man;
    I will question you,
    and you shall answer me.

4 “Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation?
    Tell me, if you understand.  Job 38:1-4

 

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1 hour ago, Witness said:

Well true, but nothing changed, only fulfilled in the one man's teachings.  

“Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.   Matt 5:17-19

I mean on change that is visible in aspects as; Kill "apostates"  vs turn the other cheek, love your enemies, etc. :)   100% change

The man who acts presumptuously by not obeying the priest who stands to minister there before the Lord your God, or the judge, that man shall die. So you shall purge the evil from Israel.

“If there is found among you, within any of your towns that the Lord your God is giving you, a man or woman who does what is evil in the sight of the Lord your God, in transgressing his covenant, and has gone and served other gods and worshiped them, or the sun or the moon or any of the host of heaven, which I have forbidden, and it is told you and you hear of it, then you shall inquire diligently, and if it is true and certain that such an abomination has been done in Israel, then you shall bring out to your gates that man or woman who has done this evil thing, and you shall stone that man or woman to death with stones.

David prayer against his enemies:

May the table set before them become a snare;
    may it become retribution and a trap.
23 May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see,
    and their backs be bent forever.
24 Pour out your wrath on them;
    let your fierce anger overtake them.
25 May their place be deserted;
    let there be no one to dwell in their tents.
26 For they persecute those you wound
    and talk about the pain of those you hurt.
27 Charge them with crime upon crime;
    do not let them share in your salvation.
28 May they be blotted out of the book of life
    and not be listed with the righteous.

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20 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

I mean on change that is visible in aspects as; Kill "apostates"  vs turn the other cheek, love your enemies, etc. :)   100% change

I think I see now what you’re saying.    Jesus raised the bar to exceed the written laws given to the Jews, allowing sinless perfection in love to be obtained through the writing of the laws on the heart. Heb 10:9-18  He introduced a New Covenant, one where we worship in spirit and truth, sanctifying us through truth. 

The Pharisees were good at tweaking, bending and adding to God’s laws, making the load impossible for the people bear.  It all sounds very familiar 😊   The organization has done the same thing with the teachings of Christ.  It spiritually murders, steals, covets and commits spiritual adultery by bending Christ’s decrees to be supplemented by the decrees of men.  A mediator for salvation comes between Christ and ourselves – the organization. 

Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law. The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,” and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.  Rom 13:8-10

Yet, if this new “law” in Christ is broken, God’s Spirit of protection is removed and condemnation follows.  God has given the judgment to Christ, but the executor is Satan, the Destroyer, and always has been. 1 Cor 10:8-11 

I always remember Moses’ words to a stubborn people, forever sinning against God’s decrees  

I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live; 20 that you may love the Lord your God, that you may obey His voice, and that you may cling to Him, for He is your life and the length of your days; and that you may dwell in the land which the Lord swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give them.”  Deut 30:19

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. John 14:6

While he was still speaking, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them; and suddenly a voice came out of the cloud, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Hear Him!”  Matt 17:5

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On 1/30/2019 at 10:33 AM, Witness said:

Well true, but nothing changed, only fulfilled in the one man's teachings.  

“Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.   Matt 5:17-19

 

Both.  :)  Isa 46:10; Prov 24:12; 1 John 3:20

 

Who understands God's thinking.? Only Christ does.  If we deviate whatsoever from his teachings, how can we even begin to understand God's thinking? 

“Who is this that obscures my plans
    with words without knowledge?
3 Brace yourself like a man;
    I will question you,
    and you shall answer me.

4 “Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation?
    Tell me, if you understand.  Job 38:1-4

 

People can understand God's way of thinking also mainly when it comes to decisions and other things, Witness. An example would be making a choice of something that isnt of Jehovah God's thinking vs. Something of man's thinking. 

In School, they teach us that homosexuality and transgender is okay and these teachers encourage teens to teach children this.

Clearly this isn't okay, and this isn't okay with God. Man's thinking will allow him or her to accept this whereas Jehovah's thinking allows us to make the right choice in this example and other things. 

I dunno if you are aware of what's being taught to toddlers nowadays. One group in particular I often see on media and social media is queer kids group, they often go after those who are against them. They also try to use the Bible to justify homosexuality. 

You and I both know God detests homosexuality and Jesus does not accept this either, reasons why these guys who support that stuff has time to turn a leaf, repent and change. I only preached to one homosexual once, but his buddies were Bible bashing weeks later and he stopped the discussion later on.

Side note, Jesus' disciples and followers applied God's way of thinking. Why assume it was only Jesus lol?

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15 hours ago, Equivocation said:

People can understand God's way of thinking also mainly when it comes to decisions and other things, Witness. An example would be making a choice of something that isnt of Jehovah God's thinking vs. Something of man's thinking. 

 

Side note, Jesus' disciples and followers applied God's way of thinking. Why assume it was only Jesus lol?

Thank you for your thoughts.

I believe applying God’s decrees is different than actually knowing Him as a child of God.  Do I know Him enough to understand what it means to praise His name?  I am on the ground floor of comprehending  God as My Rock; since for many years, even though I spoke as such, I relied on an earthly entity to be my “rock”, my fortress. 

Comments by the organization divert the attention from the Rock, to itself:

“As mountains have permanence and are identified often in Scripture with governmental functions, so God’s haven of refuge today is to be found with his theocratic organization.  w82 9/15 pp. 17-22 

I cannot see a clear demarcation between the way the Watchtower corporation is run and the “functions” it provides, and any other governmental function.   Run by a “governing” body, who declare that the “mountainlike organization” is the only source of salvation, can you really believe this shows its leaders have full knowledge of the Father when they exalt the name of an organization, as a “haven of refuge”?  Can I trust such a leadership that robs God of due praise and glory by placing it on something established in Satan’s world?  Do we have two havens of refuge, two choices of salvation?

 “With whom will you compare Me or count me equal? To whom will you liken me that we may be compared?  Isa 46:5

In God is my salvation and my glory; The rock of my strength, And my refugeis in God.  Ps 62:7

“I will say of the Lord, “He is my refuge and my fortressMy God, in Him I will trust.”  Ps 91:2

Now, I realize the blasphemy of labeling anything earthly as a “haven of refuge”, when only the Father can hold that title.  I am a child who is just beginning to understand and fear the true God.

Jesus said,

“All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.” 

The Pharisees asked Jesus,

 “Where is your father?”   You do not know me or my Father,” Jesus replied. “If you knew me, you would know my Father also.”  John 8:19

The Pharisees and Sadducees knew and taught God’s decrees, but still Jesus told them they didn’t “know” the Father, because they didn’t accept Jesus.  This taught me an important point; even though I spoke about God and Christ, I was far from knowing either one of them while in the organization.

Yes, the apostles learned about God through Christ.  We can see through scripture that it was progressive.  When I said no one knows the Father except Christ, I was thinking more of my circumstances, and all the anointed during this time period before the end.  I should have been more specific.  The faithful anointed throughout years are fully one in Christ, who is one in the Lord.  John 17:22  They carry the name of God and Christ.  Rev 3:12  They “know” God and the power of His name. 

Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.   John 14:6

I take this seriously.  In order for me to know the Father as His erring child, I must know Christ.  I let go of a “governmental function” and turned my attention to Jesus…AND the Father. 

“But whatever were gains to me I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. What is more, I consider everything a loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them garbage, that I may gain Christand be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith. 10 I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead.

12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13 Brothers and sisters, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.”  Phil 3:7-14

When I rejected the organization, where the anointed spiritual “Israel” resides, this is what happened:

 “All this I have told you so that you will not fall away. They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, the time is coming when anyone who kills you will think they are offering a service to God. They will do such things because they have not known the Father or me.   John 16:2,3

Disfellowshipping is a spiritual “killing”, directed by the elders who say they are “offering a service to God” by ousting those who turn fully to Christ.  I view this fulfillment as stepping on the right path to “know” not only Jesus Christ, but also the Father. 

By believing that the organization is a “haven and refuge”, one is “marked” by that name.  By believing that only God is our Rock, I hope to be “marked” by God’s name – to be be found  faithful and victorious in upholding and bearing His name and the name of His Son.  Then, I will confidently “know” God.  Rev 3:8,12

We cannot bear the mark/identity of an organization that we may love…

The dragon stood on the shore of the sea. And I saw a beast coming out of the sea. It had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on its horns, and on each head a blasphemous name.

People worshiped the dragon because he had given authority to the beast, and they also worshiped the beast and asked, “Who is like the beast? Who can wage war against it?” Rev 13:4

The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise its authority for forty-two months. It opened its mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander His name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven. Rev 13:5,6

…which disfellowships those who refuse to bear its identifying “mark”, expecting them to only “buy” their brand of spiritual food…

It also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads17 so that they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of its name.  Rev 13:16,17

and also bear the “mark” of God:

Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is oneLove the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength. These commandments that I give you today are to be on your hearts. Impress them on your children. Talk about them when you sit at home and when you walk along the road, when you lie down and when you get up. Tie them as symbols on your hands and bind them on your foreheadsWrite them on the doorframes of your houses and on your gates. 

To begin knowing God and His decrees/commandments fulfilled in Christ, we must begin by knowing, and turning to, Jesus Christ.  I fully believe it can’t be accomplished in the Watchtower organization that relies heavily on the thinking of men.

 

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@Witness And yet my view and morals still stand on the issue. Have you changed anyone's life who supports such things?

There's people out there who use the Bible to justify homosexuality, and this blew up since the day the cake shop owner threw hands before Court. 

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3 hours ago, Equivocation said:

@Witness And yet my view and morals still stand on the issue. Have you changed anyone's life who supports such things?

There's people out there who use the Bible to justify homosexuality, and this blew up since the day the cake shop owner threw hands before Court. 

Which things?  It's not the question of who's life I change, but who are changed by truth in scripture.  

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5 hours ago, Outta Here said:

Inspired Choices? Jesus Picked Judas; Governing Body Picked Raymond Franz;

I wouldnt say either choice was inspired.

But as a parrallel situation, yes this is an excellent comparison

How are they an excellent comparison on a parallel level?   One aided in bringing Christ to his death.  Ray became a disciple of Christ, not of men.     One was the son of destruction; what did Ray "destroy"?    The GB are not apostles.  There is no comparison.  

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8 minutes ago, Witness said:

How are they an excellent comparison on a parallel level? 

They just are so similar, and the circumstances also, absolutely perfect. Whoever thought of combining them in one sentence is a genius, maybe without realising it at all. The choice may not be inspired, but the topic.....Maybe it was!

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1 hour ago, Outta Here said:

They just are so similar, and the circumstances also, absolutely perfect. Whoever thought of combining them in one sentence is a genius, maybe without realising it at all. The choice may not be inspired, but the topic.....Maybe it was!

In other words, you are saying that Ray Franz is a son of destruction.  Who or what did he "destroy"?  The perfect circumstance is when an anointed in Christ is spiritually "killed"/disfellowshipped  by the organization's leaders, for giving testimony about the Christ and truth.  John 16:2; Rev  13:15  In this way, they begin walking in a similar path of persecution that he did at the hands of the Pharisees.  Luke 12:8-12; John 15:20

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6 hours ago, Witness said:

In other words, you are saying that Ray Franz is a son of destruction

Actually, that is what you are saying. The observation I made is posted above, conveniently quoted in full, by yourself.

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22 hours ago, Witness said:

Which things?  It's not the question of who's life I change, but who are changed by truth in scripture.  

That's exactly my point to what I said before. So what of it? What are you contributing to the preachin work when there is legitimate obstacles like this? I don't know how old you are, but times are different now verses the past.

The peeps at school are teaching this stuff now and the state I live in has passed a Law that even puts Christians to the test.

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I'll go back to your original comment:

22 hours ago, Outta Here said:

Inspired Choices? Jesus Picked Judas; Governing Body Picked Raymond Franz;

I wouldnt say either choice was inspired.

But as a parrallel situation, yes this is an excellent comparison

Will you explain to me why you believe the two, both Judas and Ray Franz,  are an "excellent comparison"?  How are they similar?  You really are beating around the bush. 

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1 hour ago, Equivocation said:

That's exactly my point to what I said before. So what of it? What are you contributing to the preachin work when there is legitimate obstacles like this? I don't know how old you are, but times are different now verses the past.

The peeps at school are teaching this stuff now and the state I live in has passed a Law that even puts Christians to the test.

 It is true that we see the results of Satan’s demonic accomplishments throughout the world. I have three sons that were “raised” in the organization, so I am aware of the trials of which you also are enduring.   However, I am old enough to have experienced spiritual obstacles in a belief held for over 30 years, that put my faith in God to the test.  Does the sign that an organization of people are “preaching”, show they are righteous by doing so?  A preaching work should be based on truth from Christ.  What if you thought you were making a difference by “preaching” information from a Watchtower magazine, only to find out that the topic of choice had to be changed – by your leaders – because their teachings, their prophetic views, were found to be wrong?  In the beginning, you told people it was truth, but it later was revealed that it wasn’t. How did you make a spiritual difference in the life of an individual by presenting a falsehood at their door?

The “good news” has been preached since Christ walked the earth.  People now have full access to Bibles, and according to their heart condition, can be led to the living water of truth. John 7:38  Christ and the apostles preached to God’s “nation”.  Matt 4:23; 3:2; Acts 10:34,35; 15:14; 13:47

It is the same with the end time preaching work that Jesus taught us to look for, narrowing it down to spiritual “Israel”.  You do know they are the anointed ones in the organization, I would guess – I would hope. Rev 7:4  Because JWs reside with them, the message and its warning, includes all of them.  Rev 18:4-8

Where does God make His home?  John 14:23   What is His dwelling? 1 Cor 3:16,17; 2 Cor 6:16; Eph 3:17 Who comprise the symbolic “inhabited earth”?  Matt 13:23   God has a homeland in the hearts of the anointed ones. They are His field, His building, His “kings of the earth”, that must be cleansed of all lies and idolatry to be found worthy to serve Him, Christ and all mankind in the Kingdom. 1 Cor 3:9-11; Rev 1:4,6

“Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord22 in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.”  Eph 2:20-22

Notice who receives the message:

“And this good news of the Kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.”  Matt 24:14

God is specifically sending the message to His homeland, His people, “Israel”. 

“When they persecute you in this city, flee to another. For assuredly, I say to you, you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.”  Matt 10:23

Today we have a spiritual “Israel”. Isa 43:10; 1 Pet 2:5,9,10  From them, the faithful will be found worthy to reign with Christ in the Kingdom of God. Rev 5:9,10  If you go back and read Matt 10:16-23, it describes the spiritual persecution that the faithful experience at the hands of their own “Jewish” leaders.  Are JWs brought before the “synogogues”?  No, but anointed and all who reject the very lies that you may have brought as truth to the door, are verbally “flogged”, and put to “death” – disfellowshipped.

When Jesus said, “go to the lost sheep of Israel”, the last symbolic “two witnesses” send their message to them – the anointed ones, the living stones of the Temple.  Rev 11:1-3; 1 Pet 4:5,9.  They are spiritually “killed” for rejecting the “mark”/identity of the organization.  Rev 11:7; 13:14-16

Why does this occur?  Because Satan demands to “sift” all the anointed since Christ, as “wheat”; just as he did by tempting Christ.  Luke 22:31; Luke 4:1-13  Will they follow only Christ, their Head, or men who say they are their head? Gen 3:15,16; Eph 5:25-27,32; Matt 24:48-51  He made the bait tailored to the minds of anointed who desire to “preach” truth; but as Satan so deftly can accomplish, this truth is laced with lies.   2 Thess 2:9-10; Rev 13:1,2,6-8; Rev 16:13-16

The “good news” is that “Israel” – “Jacob” – has been redeemed from their sins, if they leave/”flee” falsehoods and confusion, the meaning of “Babylon”.  Isa 48:20; Jer 50:28; Rev 18:4-8; 12:10; 15:2

 

 

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4 hours ago, Witness said:

Will you explain to me why you believe the two, both Judas and Ray Franz,  are an "excellent comparison"?

No I cannot do that. I will not add or take away from the original post. There is no need, as the subject has been presented clearly for comparison.

All you need to do is look at the two, side by side, as presented in the original topic, for yourself.

Make your own comparisons as I have done. I am not going to try and influence your opinion any further with my personal estimation of the matter other than to say that they are indeed, an excellent comparison.

Come to your own conclusions.

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@Witness Amigo, you are taking some huge leaps in the wrong direction. Not a whole lot of what you said addressed my main comment.

So what do us JWs have to do with people using and preaching that the Bible agrees with and or accepts homosexuality? Ever since the Christian Bakery incident we had people come out from the wood works. These same preachers preach that both Jehovah and Jesus were cool with the whole thing, even rinse and twist Jehovah's dealings with the people of Sodom and Gamorah.

On the other side, you have Transgender and support of it, who are in the same boat. And what is being taught by these people are now in the schools that are making parents uneasy. Us JWs know that Evolution isn't right and that it was Jehovah God that created everything, in the same sense as that example aside from Evolution you have people teaching that a boy can be a girl and a girl can be a boy. A grown man can be identified as a 7 year old girl, a dog, or a toaster.

You don't have to agree with my faith, dunno if you are or formerly a witness, but seriously, you should be aware of this stuff going on. I'm not even outside of school yet and this stuff is everywhere. To make matters worse, my state, this link speaks for itself

    Hello guest!

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5 hours ago, Outta Here said:

I will not add or take away from the original post.

Not sure which post is the original; yours,  mine, or the first post on this topic.  

5 hours ago, Outta Here said:

Come to your own conclusions.

I certainly have. 

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2 hours ago, Equivocation said:

@Witness Amigo, you are taking some huge leaps in the wrong direction. Not a whole lot of what you said addressed my main comment.

So what do us JWs have to do with people using and preaching that the Bible agrees with and or accepts homosexuality? Ever since the Christian Bakery incident we had people come out from the wood works. These same preachers preach that both Jehovah and Jesus were cool with the whole thing, even rinse and twist Jehovah's dealings with the people of Sodom and Gamorah.

On the other side, you have Transgender and support of it, who are in the same boat. And what is being taught by these people are now in the schools that are making parents uneasy. Us JWs know that Evolution isn't right and that it was Jehovah God that created everything, in the same sense as that example aside from Evolution you have people teaching that a boy can be a girl and a girl can be a boy. A grown man can be identified as a 7 year old girl, a dog, or a toaster.

You don't have to agree with my faith, dunno if you are or formerly a witness, but seriously, you should be aware of this stuff going on. I'm not even outside of school yet and this stuff is everywhere. To make matters worse, my state, this link speaks for itself

    Hello guest!

Thanks.  It is true, I am more keenly aware of what is going on in the Watchtower than what happens in the outside world.  The Kingdom will not be "born" from the horrible circumstances within the world that you see, but through the faithful obedience of Christ's anointed ones to him.    Luke 17:20,21; 1 Thess 5:3; Rev 12:1-4

There are more horrid things that we cannot see, which must be perceived spiritually, and that are far more serious than what's happening in the world.  Eph 6:10-13

 

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    • By The Librarian
      Special Notice: This is a controversial page. The views expressed by Raymond Franz are his alone and do not represent the views of this website or it's readers. It is included here for historical and archival reasons in holding with the truth of the events of the early 1980's - The Librarian
      Raymond Victor Franz (May 8, 1922 – June 2, 2010) was a member of the Governing Body of 
      Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.  from 20 October 1971 until 22 May 1980,[1][2] and served at the organization's world headquarters for fifteen years, from 1965 until 1980. Franz claimed the request for his resignation and his subsequent disfellowshipping resulted from allegations of his apostasy from the faith.[3] Franz wrote two books that related his personal experiences with the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society and his views on  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.  teachings.
      He was the principal author of the book  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.  which was replaced in 1988 by the Insight on the Scriptures

      Watch Tower career
      Franz was born in 1922. His uncle, Frederick Franz, was influential in the religion's development, practices and doctrines.[4] His father associated with the Bible Student movement (from which 
      Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.  developed) and was baptized in 1913. Raymond joined the  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.  in 1938, and became a baptized member in 1939.[5]

      In 1944 Franz graduated from  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. , the religion's school for training missionaries,[6] and temporarily served the organization as a traveling representative in the continental U.S. until receiving a missionary assignment to Puerto Rico in 1946. Franz became a representative of  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.  throughout the Caribbean, traveling to the Virgin Islands and the Dominican Republic, at least until 1957 when  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.  were banned in the Dominican Republic by dictator Rafael Trujillo.[7] At the age of 37 Franz married his wife, Cynthia, who joined him on missionary work. Both returned to the Dominican Republic in 1961 to evangelize for four more years before taking up work at  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. .[8]

      Franz began working in the organization's writing department and was assigned to collaboratively write Aid to Bible Understanding, the first religious encyclopedia published by  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. . On 20 October 1971 he was appointed as a member of the Governing Body.[9] In his personal memoir Franz said that at the end of 1979 he reached a personal crossroad:
       
      Frustrated by what he viewed as the Governing Body's dogmatism and overemphasis on traditional views rather than reliance on the Bible in reaching doctrinal decisions, Franz and his wife decided in late 1979 they would leave the international headquarters.[11]
       

      TIME magazine February 22, 1982
      Expulsion
      In March 1980 Franz and his wife took leave of absence from the world headquarters for health reasons and moved to Alabama, where he took up laboring work on a property owned by a fellow Witness. The following month a committee of the Governing Body raised concerns over the spreading of "wrong teachings" emanating from headquarters staff and began questioning headquarters staff on their beliefs. Staff were also questioned about comments Franz had made that may have contradicted Watch Tower doctrine.[12][13] The 15 March 1980 issue of 
      Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.  issued a statement of regret that its assertions of probability of Armageddon arriving before 1975 had "apparently overshadowed the cautionary ones and contributed to a buildup of expectation already initiated."[14] It told disappointed  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. , "including persons having to do with the publication of the information that contributed to the buildup of hopes centred on that date" to "concentrate on adjusting his viewpoint".[15] This statement, which placed blame for the disappointment about 1975 on Raymond Franz and his writing committee, precipitated a purge of that committee and eventual disfellowshipping of its sometime Chairman.[16] On May 8 1980 Franz was told that he had been implicated as an apostate.[17] He was called back to  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.  on May 20 for two days of questioning[18] by the Chairman's Committee. Franz claimed the discussion concerned allegations that some Witnesses were meeting privately to discuss various teachings of the Watch Tower Society that may have constituted apostasy.

      On 21 May 1980 Franz was called to a Governing Body session, questioned for three hours about his Bible viewpoints and commitment to Watch Tower doctrines[2][19] and agreed to a request to resign from the Governing Body and headquarters staff. Franz refused the Watch Tower Society's offer of a monthly stipend as a member of the "Infirm Special Pioneers".[20] The Governing Body investigation resulted in the disfellowshipping of several other headquarters staff.[21][22][23]

      On 1 September 1980 the Governing Body distributed a letter to all Circuit and District overseers stating that apostates need not be promoting doctrines to be disfellowshipped. The letter stated that individuals who persisted in "believing other doctrine despite scriptural reproof" were also apostatizing and therefore warranted "appropriate judicial action".[18][24]

      On 18 March 1981 Franz's employer in Alabama submitted a letter of disassociation from  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. . A  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.  article on 15 September 1981 announced a change of policy on disassociation, directing that those who formally withdrew from the religion were to be treated by Witnesses as a disfellowshipped wrongdoer.[25] Franz, who continued to socialize with his employer, was summoned to a judicial hearing on 25 November and disfellowshiped for disobeying the edict.[2][26][27] Determined to set the record straight, not only with respect to his having been disfellowshiped, but with respect to larger doctrinal issues, in 1982 he sent Heather and Gary Botting proofs of his upcoming book Crisis of Conscience so that they could chronicle the more widespread discord within the Watch Tower Society.[28] They wrote regarding Franz's contribution to their expose on the Witnesses that his recommendations "undoubtedly strengthened the veracity of the text; we were impressed by his insistence on both fairness and frankness with respect to representing the view of the Watch Tower Society."[29] Following his disfellowshiping, Franz published two books—Crisis of Conscience (1983) and In Search of Christian Freedom (1991)—presenting detailed accounts of his experiences as a  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. , a Governing Body member, and his experiences throughout various levels of the organization.

      Franz was ultimately disfellowshipped for having dinner with his employer, a disassociated brother. See also  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.
      Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. Death
      On 30 May 2010, at age 88, Franz fell and suffered a brain hemorrhage.[30] He died on 2 June 2010.[30]

      References
      "Announcements", Our Kingdom Ministry, August 1980, page 2, "This is a notification that Raymond Victor Franz is no longer a member of the Governing Body and of the  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.  family as of May 22, 1980." "Witness Under Prosecution", Richard H. Ostling, Anne Constable, Time Magazine, February 22, 1982. "Church Told to Break Privacy, Report 'Sinner'", by John Dart, Los Angeles Times, August 27, 1987. Part 1."Church Told to Break Privacy, Report 'Sinner'", part 2. Rogerson 1969, p. 66 Franz 2002, p. 11 "Gilead’s 61st Graduation a Spiritual Treat", The  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. , November 1, 1976, page 671. Franz 2002, p. 16 Franz 2002, pp. 19, 20 Franz 2002, p. 31 Franz 2002, p. 273 Franz 2002, p. 274,275 Penton 1997, pp. 119–121 Franz 2002, p. 298,299 p. 17 pp. 17-18 The Orwellian World of Jehovah's Witnesses, pp. 48-49, 158-163 Franz 2002, pp. 312, 313 Beverley 1986, p. 71 Franz 2002, p. 331 Franz 2002, p. 332 Penton 1997, p. 121 Botting & Botting 1984, p. 161 "Branch Letter", Our Kingdom Ministry, August 1980, "We are saddened to report at this time that five members of the Bethel family, and a few others in the New York city area have recently been disfellowshiped. There has been some apostasy against the organization and the promoting of sectarian divisions in some of the congregations of God’s people. (Titus 3:9-11) Living as we are in times difficult to deal with, it should not be surprising that such things occur. The first-century congregation also experienced deviations as we well know from our reading of the Holy Scriptures.—1 Tim. 1:20; 4:1; 2 Tim. 2:17, 18; 1 Cor. 15:12, 13; Acts 20:29, 30." Protecting the Flock, Watch Tower Society letter to district and circuit overseers, September 1, 1980, part 1. Protecting the Flock, Part 2. "Disfellowshiping — How to View It", The  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. , September 15, 1981, page 23, "One who has been a true Christian might renounce the way of the truth, stating that he no longer considers himself to be one of  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.  or wants to be known as one. When this rare event occurs, the person is renouncing his standing as a Christian, deliberately disassociating himself from the congregation ... Persons who make themselves 'not of our sort' by deliberately rejecting the faith and beliefs of Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.  should appropriately be viewed and treated as are those who have been disfellowshiped for wrongdoing." Franz 2002, pp. 357–369 "Expelled Witnesses Claim Group is Ingrown", Miami News, March 19, 1983. the Orwellian World of Jehovah's Witnesses, pp. 161-63 The Orwellian World of Jehovah's Witnesses,p. xxiii "Obituary". Legacy.com. Bibliography
      Beverley, James A. (1986). Crisis of Allegiance. Burlington, Ontario: Welch Publishing Company. ISBN 0-920413-37-4. Botting, Heather; Botting, Gary (1984). The Orwellian World of Jehovah's Witnesses. University of Toronto Press. ISBN 0-8020-6545-7. Franz, Raymond (2002). Crisis of Conscience. Commentary Press. ISBN 0-914675-23-0. Penton, M. J. (1997). Apocalypse Delayed (2nd ed.). University of Toronto Press. ISBN 0-8020-7973-3. Rogerson, Alan (1969). Millions Now Living Will Never Die: A Study of Jehovah's Witnesses. Constable & Co, London. ISBN 0-0945-5940-6. External Links
      Richard N. Ostling (February 22, 1982),  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. , Time magazine. Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.  at  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.  
    • Guest Nicole
      By Guest Nicole
      Tras pasar 11 años dentro de los testigos de Jehová, un exmiembro de la secta religiosa decidió huir de la organización y emprender un viaje de cinco años a través de toda Rusia y el espacio postsoviético.
      Iván Shiriáyev, que es oriundo de la ciudad de Kamyshin (Volgogrado, Rusia), se ganó el prestigio y reconocimiento de los testigos de Jehová durante sus 11 años como miembro de la organización religiosa. No obstante, un día decidió abandonar la secta y dejar atrás tanto la doctrina que predicaba, como a su esposa, devota a las creencias de aquella.
      "Siempre dudaba de si estaba siguiendo el camino correcto", reveló Shiriáyev en una entrevista concedida al portal The Village. Durante su membresía en la secta el hombre apenas tuvo tiempo para analizar sus dudas en profundidad, ya que dedicaba casi todo el tiempo libre –lo cual no era poco teniendo en cuenta que trabajaba unas pocas horas al día, justo lo necesario "para ganarse el pan y la leche"– a oraciones, predicación y actividades de la organización. La salida de la secta empezó a fraguarse con el libro 'Crisis de conciencia' del exmiembro del cuerpo gobernante de los testigos de Jehová Raymond Franz.
      Shiriáyev llevaba más de un año considerando la idea de salir de la secta. Las obras de Franz, "probablemente la persona más temible en el universo después de satán [para los testigos de Jehová]", le ayudaron a entender cómo funciona la organización.
      Un día cotidiano en el seno de la secta
      Un día típico de un testigo de Jehová empieza con la lectura del folleto 'Examinando las Escrituras diariamente' y con oraciones, explica el exmiembro de la organización. El trabajo de la vida mundana no adquiere mucha importancia para los testigos, que tratan de dedicarle el menor tiempo posible. La ocupación principal es predicar. "Sirves varias horas, vuelves a casa, te preparas para una reunión y te vas a la cama", señala Shiriáyev.
      Cuando estaba en las filas de la secta, las reuniones tenían lugar dos o tres veces a la semana y contaban con la participación de unas 30 personas. "Entre los testigos siempre te sientes culpable, por eso muchos padecen depresión", indica. Los miembros de la secta constantemente se enfrentan a la pregunta de si podrían hacer más y 'robar' tiempo de asuntos menos importantes para dedicarse aún más a su misión.
      Convencidos de que el Armagedón se acerca y solo 144.000 personas se dirigirán al cielo después de la muerte mientras el resto se queda en la Tierra, los testigos de Jehová tienen como objetivo principal divulgar este acontecimiento a todo el mundo. Y la predicación es la forma principal de lograr este fin.
      Cada mes los miembros de la secta presentan un informe donde indican cuántas horas han servido y cuántos materiales religiosos han difundido. "Existen miembros experimentados que, por ejemplo, predican no menos de 70 horas al mes", comenta Shiriáyev, quien ejerció a lo largo de ocho años. También existe un sistema de incentivos y castigos que pueden estimular tanto el crecimiento en la jerarquía de la secta, como la privación de los privilegios. El castigo más duro es la expulsión.
      En cuanto al perfil de los miembros, la mayoría de los testigos de Jehová son personas sin estudios superiores (la educación superior no es bienvenida en la organización). En las reuniones solo el 20% son hombres. El resto son mujeres jóvenes, mujeres con niños y ancianas, menciona Shiriáyev. El matrimonio civil está prohibido y los matrimonios con personas ajenas a la organización no están bien vistos.
      La fuga
      La escapada de este ciudadano ruso fue radical: simuló su muerte. Dejó una nota de despedida señalando que había seguido el camino de su padre (que se suicidó tres años atrás) y se esfumó. Se fue a su casa de campo con un magnetófono, una manta y una lancha neumática. Tras encontrar la embarcación en un sótano entre basura, sus familiares se dieron cuenta de que Shiriáyev estaba vivo e iniciaron su búsqueda a nivel federal.
      El hombre pasó nueve meses de vida ordinaria, utilizando su pasaporte en los nuevos puestos de trabajo que desempeñó y no fue consciente de que lo buscaran. Lo encontraron por casualidad en un puesto de control en la región de Amur, cuando fue detenido probablemente al sospecharse de que había participado en saqueos en unas aldeas que sufrieron inundaciones.
      Desde entonces dejó de ser objeto de búsquedas. "Nadie –ni mi mujer, ni los decanos– se esforzó en encontrarme", señaló Shiriáyev. Solo un amigo suyo, extestigo también, trató de avanzar en su búsqueda. "Así me di cuenta de que no tenía amigos", explicó el prófugo.
      La expulsión
      Shiriáyev constató de manera escrita que ya no quería seguir siendo testigo de Jehová y se presentó a la reunión de la secta donde la noticia fue anunciada oficialmente con un traje de boda para celebrarlo. Paralelamente, su matrimonio fracasaba.
      Una vez al año acude a la celebración anual de los testigos, la Conmemoración de la muerte de Jesús o Cena del Señor, con una cazadora que lleva la inscripción 'apóstata abyecto'. "Los que me conocen se apartan de mí de un salto: ¿cómo puede salvarse un renegado? Pero para mí es una actuación anual", explica Shiriáyev. Entre las ventajas de su membresía en los testigos de Jehová señala las destrezas adquiridas en en el terreno de la comunicación y los discursos públicos y que ha aprendido a vivir con modestia.
      El viaje
      El 27 de octubre de 2012 Shiriáyev abandonó su casa y empezó a viajar haciendo autostop.
      Tras su viaje por Rusia, Ucrania y Bielorrusia ha visitado numerosas ciudades. De las 1.122 localidades rusas que planea visitar ya ha estado en 360 de ellas. Se ha hecho agnóstico, viaja con una mochila que pesa 20 kilos y no cuenta con patrocinadores influyentes: utiliza sus propios medios para cubrir los gastos. Trabaja de obrero, de vez en cuando recibe alimentos, ropa y otras donaciones de desconocidos y pasa las noches básicamente en sitios donde no tiene que pagar la estancia: en casas de otros viajeros, monasterios o paradas de transporte. Su viaje de cinco años todavía no ha terminado y no tiene claro qué le deparará el futuro.

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    • By Jack Ryan
      Crisis of Conscience is a book written by a former member of the Governing Body, Raymond Franz
       
       
    • Guest Nicole
      By Guest Nicole
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