The Reproach of Child Sexual Abuse Falls on the Abuser

[Anna]

2 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Quote @Anna " Why would one try to prevent the removal of someone who causes harm in the congregation? " 

Let me give you an example which unfortunately i cannot give you full details of as it's much too personal. BUT :-

I reported an Elder for doing something very wrong. In fact that Elder used his position of Elder to do that wrong.  He basically acted like a Catholic priest, using his 'authority' and thinking he would not be questioned.  I reported him by writing a letter to the Body of Elders. However it seems, if other elders tell the truth, that the whole body of elders didn't get to see the letter. So I was called to the Kingdom Hall for a meeting with the 'Elders', but when i got there only two Elders were there.  One questioned me whilst  the other sat behind me and just listened and probably took notes. The one questioning me didn't listen to my replies, just butted in and said I would be disfellowshipped for slander if i didn't retract all the accusations I was making. Yes i stated all this before i know. BUT: -

The Elder I was accusing and the Elder questioning me were the only two Elders in the congregation that were 'businessmen'. The Elder i was accusing had shares in a Gold Mine, and the Elder questioning me owned / owns around ten properties, one of which is a farm. Those two Elders were good friends, not just brothers in the Org, they had more in common than that. So the Elder questioning me made sure that he didn't listen to me, so that he didn't have to take any action against the other Elder. Instead he threatened me with being disfellowshipped. 

So please don't ask such a silly question as " Why would one try to prevent the removal of someone who causes harm in the congregation? "  Because the simple answer is that that in many cases it is Elders protecting other Elders. 

You and others talk to me as if i've had no experience in the JW Org. But I've had years of it, and I know of other things which I just cannot mention on here as it would get other people into trouble.

And I would think here in the UK is very tame compared to America. I really dread to think of what goes on in American congregations. The things hidden between Elders in the USA must be much worse than here. 

 

We have two situations going on here.  One to do with the organization/GB, and the other of a personal nature. I was quoting a letter from the organization, and therefore I was referring to organizational direction when I said "Why would one try to prevent the removal of someone who causes harm in the congregation"? The accusations by opposers are that the Organization, by means of its instructions, protects child molesters. There is ample evidence from letters to the BOE and other instructions that this is not true.

Then we have your experience, an entirely different matter.  The organization/GB has no direct knowledge or ability to control what individual elders do or don’t do. You will agree with that surely?  There can be corruption in the congregation, there is no doubt about that.  But to blame the organization for it, and for the corrupt elders you talk about, is not exactly fair is it? And this is what you have been doing for the most part. Directing all blame at the organization/GB, and when someone defends the organization/GB you get upset.  If it is truly as you say, then why didn’t you rely on Jehovah, who sees what man cannot see, and who will eventually reveal all that is hidden? Or have you lost trust in Jehovah too?  You are not the only one who has experienced something like this you know. Our family and friends have also had to deal with corruption, favouritism and nepotism by elders in the past. Currently, many members of a congregation I know are leaving and going to a different hall because of a “dictator” elder.  Publishers are nobody’s fools, and they will see what is going on and they will leave to go somewhere else. That is an option open to everyone. Will this elder receive the judgement many think he is due? Absolutely, sooner or later he will. Nothing is hidden from Jehovah. But as far as I know, nobody is blaming the organization/GB, and nobody has stopped going to meetings.

[JOHN BUTLER]

9 hours ago, Anna said:

We have two situations going on here.  One to do with the organization/GB, and the other of a personal nature. I was quoting a letter from the organization, and therefore I was referring to organizational direction when I said "Why would one try to prevent the removal of someone who causes harm in the congregation"? The accusations by opposers are that the Organization, by means of its instructions, protects child molesters. There is ample evidence from letters to the BOE and other instructions that this is not true.

Then we have your experience, an entirely different matter.  The organization/GB has no direct knowledge or ability to control what individual elders do or don’t do. You will agree with that surely?  There can be corruption in the congregation, there is no doubt about that.  But to blame the organization for it, and for the corrupt elders you talk about, is not exactly fair is it? And this is what you have been doing for the most part. Directing all blame at the organization/GB, and when someone defends the organization/GB you get upset.  If it is truly as you say, then why didn’t you rely on Jehovah, who sees what man cannot see, and who will eventually reveal all that is hidden? Or have you lost trust in Jehovah too?  You are not the only one who has experienced something like this you know. Our family and friends have also had to deal with corruption, favouritism and nepotism by elders in the past. Currently, many members of a congregation I know are leaving and going to a different hall because of a “dictator” elder.  Publishers are nobody’s fools, and they will see what is going on and they will leave to go somewhere else. That is an option open to everyone. Will this elder receive the judgement many think he is due? Absolutely, sooner or later he will. Nothing is hidden from Jehovah. But as far as I know, nobody is blaming the organization/GB, and nobody has stopped going to meetings.

@Anna The situation I was telling you about happened over ten years ago and has affected my life ever since. I left the JW Org last year and you know why......  So, I was leaving that matter with God, as i had left many other matters with God. But when the size of the Child Abuse problem became known to me, then I decided that this cannot be God's true organisation. You are saying yourself how bad many Elders are. 

The GB / Org has made it easily possible for Elders to dictate the complete running of a congregation, as you seem to have said above. THe GB / Org has given Elders the right to choose what they will believe and what they will call lies. THe GB / Org has allowed a situation whereby not all Elders in a congregation are made aware of situations, such as the situation I have mentioned. The two witness rule can squash many things before they are even investigated properly. It also seems that the GB /org has given Elders the right to destroy written evidence of cases/situations. 

Is it any wonder why brothers and sisters take each other to the courts of the outside authorities ? You yourself have said many Elders cannot be trusted. Your words "corruption, favouritism and nepotism by elders".  

And with all the above being true, then how can God look with favour on such a wicked organisation ?  Remember Jesus called people wicked. So to call the Org wicked is not sin. 

Finally, i think you, Tom and others should get it into your heads that A PERSON CAN LEAVE THE JW ORG BUT IT DOES NOT MEAN THEY HAVE LEFT GOD OR JESUS CHRIST. So your question of " Or have you lost trust in Jehovah too? " has no meaning to me. 

I rarely call God by that name anymore, as I'm still happy with Yahweh or Almighty God and i pray through Jesus christ as God's word says we should. 

[JOHN BUTLER]

Well actually I hope whistleblowers carry on posting as much info as they can get hold of. 

And Kid, all of your attempts to make the JW Org look so pure and good are a complete failure in the eyes of many people. 

As for your word 'activist', once again it is only a word. A bit like the word, homophobic.  People just love putting 'tags' on other people. 

I think it has been well established by now, how bad the JW Org really is. How it is full of people, mainly men, that have ulterior motives. 

Well in my opinion, if it really was God's chosen 'religion' then God would chose the Elders and they would be men of good hearts, not men with ulterior motives. 

This brings us to the Governing Body. If as it seems God does not chose the Elders, and God does not supply His Holy Spirit to congregations, then if could well follow that God does not chose the members of the GB. Hence the GB men could have hidden pasts and ulterior motives. 

It's no good printing up what the elders of JW Org should do 

Quote "When elders receive reports of physical or sexual abuse of a child, they should contact the Society's Legal Desk immediately."

Because it seems quite clear that Elders have not done the things they should do. And many Elders have in fact done things they should not do. 

Keep up the propaganda Billy, you seem to love it all. Um, maybe you are an activist  Well you seem to like the word. 

[JOHN BUTLER]

34 minutes ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

To the contrary. I happen to shoot down every conceivable argument opposers and ex-witnesses have made since the ARC.

The fact that you continue with activism remains meaningless. The info is for people that actually have intelligence.

Just like the scope of your understanding of whistleblowers. Documents that pertain to an individual, specific to a crime or judgment against an individual. BOE letters are far from that ignorance.

Perhaps before you get an answer from law enforcement, try to learn what the word “legal” means. 😉

 

 

Keep up the insults Kid it just proves I'm getting through to you.  .

You think about 'shooting down every conceivable argument from opposers and ex-witnesses' in your dreams.  

Unfortunately for you there is now enough evidence Earthwide about the wickedness in JW Org, that is cannot be hidden. 

You and others are only proving that you do not serve God, but that you serve the GB and it's wicked Org. 

Unless God, through Jesus Christ, decides to clean out that wicked JW org, then it will have no chance.  I'll wait and see how it goes but I'll remain active in warning others about the Child Abuse/ Pedophile situation in the JW Org. It's the Christian thing to do to protect children from abusers. 

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

John Butler's viewpoint may in part be tempered by fantasy, but yours is certainly tempered by evaluating how much punishment a person will incur before deciding to do what is right.

.... from your own words, Billy.

37 minutes ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

What, you think people like “Snowden” if he ever sets foot in the US or territories that have a treaty with the US, he won’t be charged with espionage and treason, for his supposed whistleblowing?

You think there haven’t been whistleblowers that actually received prison sentences for believing people like you, that everything is, free game? Learn to understand the laws of your location before you leap into so many assumptions. 😉

To me, that is like a soldier whose job it is to live or die ... but do his job, refusing to go into battle because he might be damaged.

 

[JOHN BUTLER]

Quote, "I don’t know or want to know what fantasy world you live in, but it’s time to come back to earth. 😊 "

Fantasy huh. You are the one that pretends he is a cowboy ! Kid. And you do seem to get angry, calm down Kid. 

 

 

[JOHN BUTLER]

6 minutes ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

From my point of view or the governments. I don't appeal to any other than those that categories legal matters as if they fully understand. So far, I see many that can have something to gain by not being insubordinate?

Therefore, understand where I'm coming from before you have a mistaken assumption. 😉

You want everyone to kiss arse then 

[Space Merchant]

53 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

You want everyone to kiss arse then 

Please. Watch the Language, Butler. A man who seeks God knoweth well to not defile his mouth...

Quote

• Ecclesiastes 10:12 - The words of a wise man's mouth are gracious, but the lips of a fool consume him.
• Colossians 3:8 - But now you must put aside all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your mouth.
• Colossians 4:6 - Let your speech always be gracious, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone.
• Ephesians 5:4 - Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk, or crude joking, which are out of character, but rather thanksgiving.
• Ephesians 4:29 - Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear.
• Matthew 15:11 - it is not what goes into the mouth that defiles a person, but what comes out of the mouth; this defiles a person.”
• James 3:10 - From the same mouth come blessing and cursing. My brothers, these things ought not to be so.

 

1 hour ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

To me, that is like a soldier whose job it is to live or die ... but do his job, refusing to go into battle because he might be damaged.

Believe or not, not every solider likes going to war, some even cry over it. I know some of them, one notable one, Steven Gern. That being said, Wars start over silly things, and when someone wants to take something from someone else.

 

Also the governments cannot be trusted, show respect, but do not be invited to their dinner table.

[JOHN BUTLER]

Please. Watch the Language, Butler. A man who seeks God knoweth well to not defile his mouth...

Sorry Space Merchant.  

[Anna]

10 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

But when the size of the Child Abuse problem became known to me, then I decided that this cannot be God's true organisation.

So it's the size? Unfortunately this is to be expected with the kind of morality promoted by this world ruled by Satan. Disgusting things are going on and what's more disgusting is that people professing to serve Jehovah do some of these disgusting things. So let's put the blame where it belongs, on the abuser, not on those who are having to deal with it. The perpetrators are the ones who damage people's lives, the victims are the ones who have to live with it, the families are the ones who are broken apart because of it. I did not say most elders are corrupt. Most elders are good men. But it only takes a few bad apples to do an awful lot of damage.

10 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

THe GB / Org has allowed a situation whereby not all Elders in a congregation are made aware of situations, such as the situation I have mentioned.

Can you explain what you mean please, not sure I understand

 

[JOHN BUTLER]

@Anna Quote "So it's the size?"   

Each case of child abuse is bad enough and I feel for the victims and their families. However one or two cases by ordinary congregation members could be understandable.   But the size of the problem in the Org, along with other things that i had left in God's hands, in other words other things that were /are wrong in the Org, just proved to me that JW Org is not what it is supposed to be. 

As for your comment " Unfortunately this is to be expected with the kind of morality promoted by this world ruled by Satan. "

No it should not be expected. Everyone in the Org should be 'no part of the world'.  And if the JW Org was God's chosen organisation and if the Elders were chosen with God's Holy Spirit, the Elders would be God fearing men that serve God not served their own flesh. 

And " those who are having to deal with it." are often those that are causing it, the Elders. 

Quote "Can you explain what you mean please, not sure I understand "

When I wrote a letter to the Body of Elders, i meant it to be read by the Body of Elders, not just one or two Elders.. And when i was summoned to appear before the Elders, I expected to appear before the complete Body of Elders. If that had happened then the complete Body of Elders would have been aware of the situation. And I do not think that the one Elder would have threatened to disfellowship me.  The case would have or should have been dealt with properly / fairly. The information would not have been hidden and the Elder that i accused would have had to answer for his sins.... However when I spoke to a different Elder, on an occasion when he came to visit me, he said he didn't know anything about my letter or about the situation.  So was God in control of that situation, NO, Men were in control of that situation. Why ? Because the GB or someone in authority has allowed situations to arise that way. If the rule was that the whole Body of Elders had to be present in serious cases, then my case would have been heard properly and justice would have been done. 

Hence when i 'resigned' from the Org, i sent text messages to as many Elders as i possibly could. That way most of them knew the situation and the reason for it.... 

When the GB / Org says go and tell an Elder, my advice would be Tell every Elder in the congregation, not just one or two. That way the whole Body of Elders would know every serious situation within their congregation. 

[Anna]

2 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

As for your comment " Unfortunately this is to be expected with the kind of morality promoted by this world ruled by Satan. "

No it should not be expected. Everyone in the Org should be 'no part of the world'. 

I should have said it should not surprise us. You don't have to be in the world to be affected by it, otherwise you would have to be taken out of the world. No one is immune to Satan's propaganda. I am sure you are aware that not everyone in the org is who they claim to be. Just because someone is called an elder or claims to be one of Jehovah's Witnesses doesn't make them so. Those are Jehovah's Witnesses and elders in name only. But they are not the majority. 

2 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

When I wrote a letter to the Body of Elders, i meant it to be read by the Body of Elders, not just one or two Elders.. And when i was summoned to appear before the Elders, I expected to appear before the complete Body of Elders........ So was God in control of that situation, NO, Men were in control of that situation. Why ? Because the GB or someone in authority has allowed situations to arise that way. If the rule was that the whole Body of Elders had to be present in serious cases, then my case would have been heard properly and justice would have been done.

It is the body of elders who assign two elders to look into a particular case. So unless the two elders acted on their own, the body of elders would have been familiar with your letter. You cannot get disfellowshipped unless a judicial committee is formed. The congregation would not consider forming a judicial committee unless the offended Christian (you) had taken steps one and two of Matthew 18:15, 16 and had initiated step three in Matthew 18:17. If asked, elders could participate in step two, but they do not represent the body of elders. If the matter proceeds to step three, any elders who were witnesses in step two could serve only as witnesses in step three. They would not be used to serve on the judicial committee. I trust you were not in a judicial committee. There is nothing stopping anyone from asking to speak to any and all elders if they wished, especially when you believed the elders assigned to look into your accusation might have been biased. That is if they were assigned. Did you follow the steps in Matthew? Because that is how God controls the situation.