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Equivocation

People who believe they had visions of and or had a near death experience about seeing/going to Hell?

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Space Merchant -
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What is your take?

We all know what it is and what it is not. But there is people out there who actually believe these testimonies that are out there and they are some who said they've seen people, who have died, undergo torment. Some of them only stick to a single verse, ignoring everything else, knowingly or unknowingly ignoring the passage.

What wait, there's more, the passage of Lazarus and the Rich Man some of these guys think it is literal and they think and or compare this to Lazarus the real one.

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I have noticed talking to many people about "HELL" that they have a desperate need to believe in it, perhaps if only to get mad and condemn you to Hell if you don't agree with what they believe.

Wouldn't it be a hoot if there actually is a burning hell of torment where you will be tortured forever and ever ... BUT ... ONLY if you believe there is one?

Otherwise I believe all these "experiences" are all just lucid dreams partially due to oxygen starvation.

 

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The problem is there are people out there that indeed preach this craziness. They also tend to play into the feelings of those who refute such things easily, stated that thousands of testimonies exist, yet when certain testimonies are mentioned, they are quick to spin the narrative and the like.

Clearly, God does not profess the passing of people into the fire, he drove such out of the land, and it seems today people profess such and things it is a gospel truth. They will say Hell is the Lake of Fire and does not mean destruction, but a quick turn to Rev. 20:14 says otherwise, with references.

They also do not want to believe that Lazarus and the Rich Man is just a parable, for Jesus professed such to teach a lesson, often times, some will say that the Lazarus in the parable is the actual Lazarus, sister of Mary and Martha, which is not the case, they also ignore Jairus' child, his daughter, and others just to push a false narrative.

I often come across these people a lot, even recently. The recent discussion this person brought up Luke 12:5, I told him to look at the reference, he never uttered a word since. But it is a shame, despite how this person sees into this false narrative, can't help but feel sorry for the man.

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On 3/1/2019 at 6:37 PM, Space Merchant said:

The problem is there are people out there that indeed preach this craziness.

As those who believe that the gb are God's mouthpiece. 

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@Shiwiii And your point? One who claims to be a mouthpiece must prove it by their word,i.e. are they following the or striving to follow the early church, as in, the church documents that is highly valued and so forth.Testimonies of Hell, do they profess this also or you are implying adding on here? Muslims also believe that they are the mouthpiece of Allah. New Agers believe they can attain a higher power. Ritualist believe they can become like gods and goodness. Mainstream Christian claims that a Triune God speaks to them and that they are the mouthpiece, should you not vote for Trump, then you are on the side of Satan.

It isn't painstakenly out of the blue for someone to say that they are a mouthpiece of God. In the end, it comes down to who is actually professing the teachings of the early church, mirroring the church documents, applying Bible teachings and principles and making adaptable changes to profess and progress in the Christian faith.

That being said, people who claim they have the holy spirit and say they witness Satan giving the punishment to men, women and children in a fiery place of torment, are in the wrong here, for God would never give Satan or his demons the satisfaction of such, as the mainstream pushes to believe, the end result pushes on to the people that God is the bad guy, the villain, when this is not the case, and regarding fire torment, God himself reacted to it, emotionally, even speaking on the matter that such would never cross his mind, cross his heard. And such ones are not even prophets inspired, so why such testimonies such as these spread throughout Christendom when the truth itself speaks for itself in the Bible? An honest man can see this for himself, and I assume you are an honest man if you actually contributed to what was asked.

In short, no one should be profess El Shaddai as the one of badness here and this is the case with these individuals, and we have examples, Mario Martinez and those who are aligned with the Karios Movement.

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@Space Merchant or the fact people even other Christians who will say some have the power to have visions to see the dead being torment. They'll tell you that have seen things that would bring them to tears and if you say otherwise they will attack and call you a denier. They truly believe that Jehovah God does these things and it is mind boggling. They'll also justify that Gehenna is a false word and Hell is the real term, even going as far as to say Tartarus is the same thing, reasons why demons are, in their eyes, tormenting people. oh Dios mío, it isn't easy to show these people what the Bible actually says.

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8 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

It isn't painstakenly out of the blue for someone to say that they are a mouthpiece of God

wow, really? and you believe this? You are a perfect candidate for recruitment into whatever cult blows this way this week. 

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12 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

wow, really? and you believe this? You are a perfect candidate for recruitment into whatever cult blows this way this week. 

He does make a good point. Some groups can and will say they are God's mouthpiece or his spokesman, but at the end of the day, it comes down of who is doing things according to Jehovah God.

I dug into Mario Martinez, he's someone who acknowledges he has the spirit and speaks as a Spokesman to God, but what he teaches which connects with the topic is not even from the Bible, not even a small little concept. Another group would be the crusader bunch who thinks God Wills everything even wanting to cause harm to others, not all of them but some actually do if they had the chance. Some of these guys also believe in and actually speak about these testimonies of Hellfire and torment. 

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@Space Merchant Don't forget the crusader bunch. Some of these guys also say the same thing to, they also believe in the whole taking of the holy land. I met one of them only once half way through my last year of middle school when I was in the city.

 

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On 3/4/2019 at 9:50 AM, Shiwiii said:

wow, really? and you believe this? You are a perfect candidate for recruitment into whatever cult blows this way this week. 

You do realize Christians are prophets not inspired, in this sense, they can make claim to being a mouthpiece, anyone can say it, but it comes down to if they follow the early church and its teachings, in conjunction with the teachings of the Christ and so forth. If a man claims he is the mouthpiece of the church and or God, how about all of Christendom, and he professes he sleeps one day and goes to a place of torment, seeing people there being tortured, you think he'd be teaching the truth let alone attempting to seek it and teach it himself? No.

That being said, by all means team cybele can go first for in relation to Christendom, they love to hog the ball up and down the court.

On 3/4/2019 at 10:11 PM, Equivocation said:

@Space Merchant Don't forget the crusader bunch. Some of these guys also say the same thing to, they also believe in the whole taking of the holy land. I met one of them only once half way through my last year of middle school when I was in the city.

 

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These guys are a bit on the extreme side. Occasionally I see them, mainly when it comes to the Bible or the Holy Land, they go off like a bullet train with the power of H. RES. 183. Don't get too close, their second amendment hand are quite strong.

That being said, they sadly believe the whole torment concept to, and some of them will tell you God only stopped Ahaz and others who passed their people into the fire, and never drove the practice out of the land and so forth.

This is why it is vital to study the Scriptures of the Hebrew and Greek text to understand what Hell is, what Gehenna is, what Tartarus is, since many people equate all of them to be the same.

Ironically enough, they don't like Revelations 20:14 which says.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

They'll simply skip this verse and go to 15. Moreover, they, and some, will spin what natural death is, with the second death and spiritual death. You will get a response such as you cannot throw death into death, and so forth.

Such ones are hardpressed by the teachings of Christendom that professes these testimonies to be factual, even saying that such ones can see visions and fortellings of Hell.

That being said, most debates and discussions I have seen, even took part in, even when there is a truth given to them, they will ignore it, and continue to paint God as an unjust villain.

 

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7 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

Ironically enough, they don't like Revelations 20:14 which says.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Shredded documents can with skill and patience by restored from destruction.

Documents burned to ashes in Lava, cannot.

You have to VISUALIZE what is being said ... not just read it.

 

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1 minute ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

 

Shredded documents can with skill and patience by restored from destruction.

Documents burned to ashes in Lava, cannot.

You have to VISUALIZE what is being said ... not just read it.

 

Try telling this to the Crusader Militant Christians. They will scream at you and attack you.

That being said, the context and references in regards to the symbolic lake of fire should not be blown into something that it is not. Since we know death is thrown into the lake of fire, as well as the grave, which is also called hades, sheol, or hell, is tossed in there too. The Bible informs us that death will be no more for it will be the last enemy God will do away with, and there is no need to buried people in hades in this regard. Another verse some crusaders will take issue with his in regards to the commandments whereas they think God gives them the right to justify killing. Although they will not do it, but a few months back when there was an clash with Christians and Atheists, crusaders were very vocal in the discussion, but there misguided ignorance shows.

But yes, such ones believe hell is eternal, yet somehow they make claim they can go back and forth. For if their belief in such is spoken of as eternal, how do they have the hall pass to such? The plot thickens.

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On 3/8/2019 at 7:14 PM, Space Merchant said:

You do realize Christians are prophets not inspired, in this sense, they can make claim to being a mouthpiece, anyone can say it, but it comes down to if they follow the early church and its teachings, in conjunction with the teachings of the Christ and so forth. If a man claims he is the mouthpiece of the church and or God, how about all of Christendom, and he professes he sleeps one day and goes to a place of torment, seeing people there being tortured, you think he'd be teaching the truth let alone attempting to seek it and teach it himself? No.

That being said, by all means team cybele can go first for in relation to Christendom, they love to hog the ball up and down the court.

Not being inspired means that they are NOT the mouthpiece of God. A inspired prophet IS, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Moses, etc. 

men can say whatever they want to say, but that doesn't mean it comes from God. You can go ahead and believe that there is a certain criteria established by man that makes them a mouthpiece, that's fine, it just doesn't make it so. 

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8 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

Not being inspired means that they are NOT the mouthpiece of God.

Again - Christians are prophets NOT INSPIRED, however, they can still profess God's word when it comes to teaching, ministering and or other, although not on the high ground as they're inspired counterparts. One who is a mouthpiece of God is one who speaks God's Word, minister and professes it, following God's Word in this sense. It also pertains to a spokesmen.

8 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

A inspired prophet IS, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Moses, etc. 

Indeed. Don't forget Aaron. He was Moses' mouthpiece, spokesmen, etc.

8 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

men can say whatever they want to say, but that doesn't mean it comes from God. 

Pretty much what I pointed to, but ok. This also goes for the actions committed by men, and or Christians whoa re true and not true.

8 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

you can go ahead and believe that there is a certain criteria established by man that makes them a mouthpiece,

I profess and believe what the Bible teachings, as with Jesus' church. As I have said already, anyone can make the claim that they are the mouthpiece of God, what it comes down to is those who are doing things pertaining to God's will and purpose. Reasons why I gave example of such one like Martinez, who, he spoken of as a mouthpiece of God but teachings false teachings concerning one being able to see or have visions of a realm that does not originate with God whereas another, who says they are God's mouthpiece and speaks truth to claim in regards to such ones like Martinez.

Again we see here you do not even understand exactly what I've said.

8 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

that's fine, it just doesn't make it so. 

My point was already made now and months ago that concise with the truth of what I said concerning God's Kingdom and his people. Those who God puts forth, those who are for his son, will always speak and teach what is true, in a world that teaches something that is not of the church.

That being said, it would be foolish and erroneous for any man to speak and teach of things that does not originate with God, does not originate with what Jesus taught, does not originate with the church or the Kingdom, etc. For even false prophets and teachers of this world who makes claim show the fruits they grow - in this sense, the teaching of something that God himself drove out of the land and detests.

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15 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

Again - Christians are prophets NOT INSPIRED, however, they can still profess God's word when it comes to teaching, ministering and or other, although not on the high ground as they're inspired counterparts. One who is a mouthpiece of God is one who speaks God's Word, minister and professes it, following God's Word in this sense. It also pertains to a spokesmen.

you don't get it, or you just don't like to admit you're wrong. 

Not inspired = not the mouthpiece. 

 

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On 3/12/2019 at 11:50 AM, Shiwiii said:

you don't get it, or you just don't like to admit you're wrong. 

Probably because I am not?

On 3/12/2019 at 11:50 AM, Shiwiii said:

Not inspired = not the mouthpiece. 

So may I ask, what of those that preached the gospel of the good news and the Messianic Age i.e. public proclamation of the inspired things/events from Scripture? Are you purposely leaving them out? Not to knock on the false teachers out there, but they too are doing the same blinding people, are they not speaking as well? The distinction between true and false, those who are of what is true will indeed speak up.

That being said, a spokesman, mouthpiece and or delegatee, etc. there are many terms.

Also you are forgetting, Christians (Prophets who are not inspired and not infallible) have gifts of the spirit in regards to proclaiming God's Word, thus they are mouthpieces/spokesman of God YHWH. Surely you know the difference between and can make the distinction between an inspired Prophet such as the ones you mentioned, and a not inspired Prophet who are commonly known as Christians today. One thing both of these types have in common is that they profess God, are like spokesman concerning God and so forth.

Don't go about things in a simplistic manner, Shiwiii.

Now, although those who bear testimony to having so called visions, they make the claim that God uses them as representatives, as his spokesmen, but clearly you see by such, they are teaching something that is not of the church. The boy mentioned the crusaders, militant Christians, they claim they are of God, but would be quick to take a firearm in threat to men, women and children should they go to the extreme, as a recent discussion this was revealed some months ago, and although all of them vary, they have a crazy view of what they see as just and thinking God Wills it (Deus vult).

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15 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

Don't go about things in a simplistic manner, Shiwiii.

oh sm, why not? I mean simplistic is very easy to understand, its only when folks like yourself, who add all kinds of arbitrary meanings and definitions, who purposely create complexity so that by the time someone has tried to sift through all that mess, they give up and say "uncle". 

There is a significant difference between a person stating scripture and explaining it, and one who proclaims to be God's mouthpiece. You just don't see it and want to make your statement so convoluted that people give up. No, a person who is proclaiming the Gospel is still not God's mouthpiece. They are proclaiming and pointing to Gods Word, but are not God's mouthpiece. You don't have to agree and can make up whatever you want, but the end result is that you have not convinced me and based on the replies of almost no one else, you haven't convinced anyone else either. 

 

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7 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

oh sm, why not? I mean simplistic is very easy to understand, its only when folks like yourself, who add all kinds of arbitrary meanings and definitions, who purposely create complexity so that by the time someone has tried to sift through all that mess, they give up and say "uncle". 

Don't blame me for stating something that is true. I need not have to explain to you something that is literally simple, after all, all the Christians that lived before us, our brothers and our sisters of the church, it should be obvious to you. Clearly they are not like Moses, David, etc, but they did have something in common, they proclaimed who God is, his Kingdom and all that pertains to it, hence, they are spokesman, mouth and or mouthpiece, declarees, advocates, prophets, etc.

Give up? I value discussion.

7 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

There is a significant difference between a person stating scripture and explaining it, and one who proclaims to be God's mouthpiece. You just don't see it and want to make your statement so convoluted that people give up.

I've only made the response because of what you said as seen here:

On 3/12/2019 at 11:50 AM, Shiwiii said:

Not inspired = not the mouthpiece. 

If I am wrong, as I told you in question, what of the good news gospel and the Messianic Age? All things pertaining to God that is spoken of by Christians, as well as the false prophets and teachers out there? There is Truth and there is Untruths, those who speak the truth will speak up.

That being said, the leaders of Judah thought of Isaiah to be crazy when he not only repeat himself, but was speaking quite a lot regarding warning.

7 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

No, a person who is proclaiming the Gospel is still not God's mouthpiece.

So when someone is speaking the gospel of the good news, what are they professing if not of God? I am sure you are aware that even angels in Bible times were God's mouthpieces as well, example, Genesis 16:10-11, Genesis 22:10-12.

7 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

They are proclaiming and pointing to Gods Word, but are not God's mouthpiece.

Ok, my point exactly. Such ones proclaim God's Words, speaking and proclaiming the message, which pertains to what I had said.

7 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

You don't have to agree and can make up whatever you want

I don't make things up but ok.

7 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

but the end result is that you have not convinced me and based on the replies of almost no one else, you haven't convinced anyone else either. 

How are you so sure I haven't convinced anyone? If the Bible speakth something, it will be said. No one is ignorant to the fact that God uses angels and people, even speaks trough them and or uses them to push his message, Shaliach Principle being an example, which the person in question is a spokesman and or mouthpiece. For us Christians today, we are spreading God's Word and proclaiming the message, although we are not like our prophet inspired counterparts, we have the gifts of the spirit still and able to do God's will by such.

That being said, there are indeed false prophets out there, some of which who preach and teach that God has given them visions of hell, people being tormented in it, burned, eaten, what have you. They make claim that they are God's spokesman, or in this case, God's mouthpiece, but they are teaching a message that is not of the church, not of God, but of man.

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@Space Merchant That's because people believe some Christians who preach these things. It's not only the fact that they say they have visions, but they teach future prediction, when we know that no one after the Apostles is inspired in that level. But yeah, proclaiming the message and all that, this is true.

Some would consider Christians to actually be prophets but as you said it comes down to who is actually speaking the truth. 

Also people consider or say prophets are preachers. And of course we have preachers who are saying things that are totally beyond what the Bible teaches. 

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3 hours ago, Equivocation said:

That's because people believe some Christians who preach these things.

Soothing emotional words that tickle the ears. Such ones people will believe. They or their flock will speak of such ones as God's chosen one, mouthpiece, God's sole servant, what have you, but such ones speak ill doctrine, hence the term false prophet/teacher used unto such ones.

Back to the topic at hand here, people who make claim to these visions will often get folks by means of strong words and emotion, and we have the end result of those who make claim to vision, the best example I can find is here: 

    Hello guest!

One lie that so called false prophets in Christendom often teach is indeed what is being discussed here, for not only they make claim to these visions, but also, they will say that God punishes the evil men, deceased, with eternal torment in the lake of fire.

The falsehood can easily be read out in this sense, when we read the Bible, we know that God is indeed love, and God would not be able to send deceased, those who are not living, those who are dead, to be committed to harm if they perish, conscious of nothing at all.

I am sure your faith community is already aware, but the lake of fire, which is Gehenna, is symbolic, a place of everlasting destruction. Something that has cease from existence by means of Gehenna cannot succumb to what today's mainstream Christendom preaches or Christian prophets such as those mentioned in this sense. Truly I say, it is not that difficult to spot such.

But this is merely one of such teachings from those who proclaim that God is with them or that they are speakers of the Most High God.

That being said, reminds me of a recent discussion with someone, who ended up attacking everyone for not believing in these testimonies. Yet one girl, her English was not that great she is from Dominican Republic, mentioned a testimony she was aware of and could not believe God to be the villain in this sense, only for the one I discussed with to call her a lair, after he himself professed such visions as an absolute truth. Another told me that this misguided Christian is a lost cause, so I had to cease discussion with him, even going about calling the misguided one depraved minded. But I continued, thinking that he could see the truth of the Bible, but he refused, calling everyone, even those who were seeking to learn to read the Bible, agents of the Devil.

This alone shows you the state of mind in what mainstream Christendom teaches vs. those who are not of the mainstream. The funny thing is there was a guy who said Jesus quoted, used Bible citations of the Old Testament, the misguided Christian said Jesus never quoted the Old Testament - that remark there is equated to the hill he died on in regards to this discussion. Mind you this is one of many, and there is always discussion, debate, etc. when it comes to these things, but in the end, truth always stands firm.

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